Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast today. I'm very lucky to
Speaker 1: have doctor Susan Block on the show. Doctor Susan Block
Speaker 1: is an American sex therapist, author, filmmaker, TV talk show host,
Speaker 1: and cultural commentator. She's founder of the Doctor Susan Block
Speaker 1: Institute for the Erotic Arts and Sciences. Thanks Susan for
Speaker 1: talking to me today. Oh it's my pleasure, Scott. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I'm excited too. You are known for lots of things,
Speaker 1: and we can talk about lots of stuff tonight. You are, oh,
Speaker 1: absolutely well, some of which I'm famous for, in some
Speaker 1: of which I'm infinous for. You know, I've known you
Speaker 1: since I was a little baby. You were a grad
Speaker 1: student at Yale. You were literally in the audience of
Speaker 1: a talk I gave at Yale Sex Week. I gave
Speaker 1: it an academic talk on meeting intelligence with my colleague
Speaker 1: Glen Gear and you came up to me after the
Speaker 1: talk and you were just so supportive, and I just
Speaker 1: want to thank you. You know, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: thank you fully, thank you. Well, you're welcome. Thanks. At necessary,
Speaker 1: I wanted to come up to you because I wanted
Speaker 1: to connect with you. Yes, thing, yes, and we did
Speaker 1: connect and we have lots to talk about. So one
Speaker 1: thing you're known for is your philosophy of ethical hedonism, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I thought you could unpack a little bit for
Speaker 1: the audience what that means ethical hedonism. Well, it's, first
Speaker 1: of all, very possible to be an ethical heathenist. It's
Speaker 1: not an oxymoron, and in fact, you can't be a
Speaker 1: moron to be one. And yeah, you can be one
Speaker 1: just as easily as you can be an unethical puritan. Really,
Speaker 1: it's just about understanding that, you know, pleasure is a
Speaker 1: great motivator. Pleasure is a positive thing in life. It's
Speaker 1: not necessarily weakness to enjoy pleasure, and yeah, it does
Speaker 1: need to be tempered with ethics, and these ethics don't
Speaker 1: have to be moralizing ethics. In fact, they can be
Speaker 1: just as natural as the desire of pleasure. There are
Speaker 1: many studies that show that kindness is hedonic, that it
Speaker 1: feels good to do good. So in a way, ethical
Speaker 1: hedonism is just feeling good doing good. What is hedonism
Speaker 1: in your definition, It's kind of like epicurean hedonism. It's
Speaker 1: not the kind of hedonism that you know, damn everybody
Speaker 1: else's feelings. If it feels good, do it, and that's it.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's putting pleasure as a priority, maybe even first,
Speaker 1: but it's also taking other people's pleasure into consideration, and
Speaker 1: it is defining pleasure in a very expansive, the noblesque way.
Speaker 1: So this is really interesting because you know, I am
Speaker 1: in the past couple of years, have really gotten into
Speaker 1: the field of positive psychology, and I actually teach positive psychology.
Speaker 1: And I don't even know if you know where I
Speaker 1: am right now, but I now teach at University of Pennsylvania. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when my parents went there. I'm very excited about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you grew up actually in the suburbs right near
Speaker 1: where I grew up. The main line, yeah, the main line. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I teach posit psychology and a big thing I
Speaker 1: teach is the sort of multi dimensional conceptisation of well
Speaker 1: being and happiness and how it goes beyond just hedonism
Speaker 1: defined as you know, just simple pleasures, showing that like
Speaker 1: for a full life you need meaning, you need, engagement,
Speaker 1: you need or at least it helps maybe not need,
Speaker 1: but it helps positive social relationship, these certain things, these
Speaker 1: sorts of things. And so it sounds to me like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think your definition udism goes beyond just
Speaker 1: carnal pleasures, right, Oh yeah, I mean meaning gives me
Speaker 1: the most pleasure, you know, finding meaning and what I
Speaker 1: do and what happens in my life. That's a great
Speaker 1: pleasure that gives me, you know, brain Gassen, So I
Speaker 1: love that, sure, feel good? Yeah, your own practice, you're
Speaker 1: lots of things, and you're not the type of person
Speaker 1: to be just labeled as one thing. But one of
Speaker 1: your hats is a sex therapist, is that right? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And you a sex therapist and private practice, that's my
Speaker 1: day job. You incorporate lots of different techniques in your work.
Speaker 1: I've read erotic theater therapy, sexual psychodrama, and bonobo liberation therapy.
Speaker 1: Now these might not be obvious what these things mean
Speaker 1: to my listeners. So would you be open to unpacking
Speaker 1: a little bit with these kind of therapies entail? Sure
Speaker 1: it's too unpacked, but you know that whole threesome you
Speaker 1: just started there. But what should we start with erotic
Speaker 1: theater therapy? Because I know we're going to want to
Speaker 1: talk about bonobo. Yeah, let's hold off on. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: going to segue, so we'll segue into the whole. But
Speaker 1: I have a million Bobo questions for you. Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: start with your kind of your background in theater, which
Speaker 1: I believe you studied at Yale. I did I have
Speaker 1: a bachelors in theaters? And really, you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of veered towards that because it is the sexiest major
Speaker 1: at yam maybe even the easiest. And I am a
Speaker 1: bit of an old fashion headenis and slightly lazy, and
Speaker 1: I like the idea of getting credit for kissing a classmate.
Speaker 1: You know, you said that in your book. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: well it's really what motivated me other than just I
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, all the world is a stage,
Speaker 1: and not just if you like Shakespeare, but you know,
Speaker 1: just that's like people are always acting and interacting, and
Speaker 1: a lot of acting training is teaching empathy, really teaching
Speaker 1: how to tune in to your fellow actors or as
Speaker 1: a director, how to tune into your director so that
Speaker 1: you can act in this finite thing called a play
Speaker 1: or a movie. But it's really kind of a lesson
Speaker 1: to learn for life, I think. So. In my practice,
Speaker 1: I do erotic theater therapy. What is that? And it's
Speaker 1: kind of a psychodrama, erotic psychodrama. It can be done
Speaker 1: in real life with a group like I do pretty
Speaker 1: much every Saturday night on my show and in my
Speaker 1: after party, and it can be done one on one,
Speaker 1: it can be done in your own mind in the
Speaker 1: erotic theater of the mind. You know, fantasy can be
Speaker 1: just as interesting and compelling as reality. And in erotic
Speaker 1: theater therapy we explore the world of fantasy, whether that's
Speaker 1: a complete you know, gives me style fantasy, or a
Speaker 1: memory of something that might have happened to you, maybe
Speaker 1: something positive, maybe something negative that happened in your sexual life,
Speaker 1: exploring that through role play that is both meaningful and
Speaker 1: hopefully pleasurable, not necessarily pleasurable. Sometimes it can be painful,
Speaker 1: but hopefully it is always me meaningful and help the
Speaker 1: client to understand their sexual feelings, their fetishes, the fantasies
Speaker 1: that might bother them, and how to explore them, Whether
Speaker 1: to explore them in real life, whether to do that
Speaker 1: with a partner, to do it in a group, to
Speaker 1: act it out literally, or just maybe in a kind
Speaker 1: of theatrical style way with perhaps a dominatrix or in
Speaker 1: some other professional setting, or whether to just keep it
Speaker 1: in the mind and just kind of contain it there.
Speaker 1: You know, did that advent it pretty much? I guess.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if it's an invention so
Speaker 1: much as a pulling of different styles of communication, different therapies,
Speaker 1: also just fantasy roleplay, pulling from all the different wonderful
Speaker 1: subsperts I know from Yeah, you know, and I use
Speaker 1: it all to help my my clients. And you see
Speaker 1: a lot of significant changes in your clients. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess I could say that is. I guess I see
Speaker 1: significant changes. Sometimes. I certainly see significant understanding. Sometimes it
Speaker 1: is about a change, about coming out of a closet,
Speaker 1: about realizing that there's nothing wrong with your fantasy and
Speaker 1: you really need to in order to live a full,
Speaker 1: meaningful life, express yourself like a butterfly from a caterpillar,
Speaker 1: you know, and then you see a very meaningful change,
Speaker 1: and it's very obvious and it's a celebration. And sometimes
Speaker 1: the change is very very minuscule, but it's very important,
Speaker 1: such as if someone has a very very taboo fantasy
Speaker 1: that they shouldn't explore, if they fantasize about doing something
Speaker 1: that is really wrong and they think it's wrong too,
Speaker 1: something that you know, probably not a good idea, definitely
Speaker 1: not a good idea to explore in reality, that there
Speaker 1: are other ways to explore it, and that they're not
Speaker 1: like totally messed up just for thinking it. So, do
Speaker 1: you think we live in a really sexually repressed culture
Speaker 1: in comparison to other cultures? Many cultures are in comparison
Speaker 1: to Vanogo culture. No, I don't think comparison to other
Speaker 1: human cultures, you know. No, I don't think we're more
Speaker 1: or less. I think that most human cultures are repressed
Speaker 1: in one way or another, and often the way that
Speaker 1: which you are repressed in one culture, you're more open
Speaker 1: than another. I've traveled around a bit, and I noticed
Speaker 1: that every culture has their way of being very sexual
Speaker 1: that is almost shocking to anyone from another culture. And
Speaker 1: then they have their ways in which they appear to
Speaker 1: be repressed. For instance, Americans talk about sex a lot.
Speaker 1: Maybe iTunes gives us, you know, an our rating, but
Speaker 1: the fact is that most other cultures, even in France,
Speaker 1: they go Americans, you talk so much about sex, and
Speaker 1: I guess we're relatively unrepressed in that regards, at least
Speaker 1: on talk shows. But the French, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: they're much more open about just having affairs. I guess,
Speaker 1: as long as they respect certain boundaries. And then I
Speaker 1: was surprised when I had a caller on my show
Speaker 1: from Iraq, who sometimes I get people from all over
Speaker 1: the world, both in my private practice and on my show,
Speaker 1: and on this show, I had some other sexperts, and
Speaker 1: he was saying that his sex life with his wife
Speaker 1: had become boring and he wasn't sure quite what to do.
Speaker 1: And we were giving him all these ideas for how
Speaker 1: to spice up his sex life, and he was saying, no, no,
Speaker 1: that wasn't a good idea. That wasn't a good idea.
Speaker 1: And then somebody said, well, do you want to divorce
Speaker 1: your wife? And he said, no, of course not my
Speaker 1: wife and I we love each other. I mean and
Speaker 1: she's the mother of my five children and she's a
Speaker 1: good woman. I would never divorce her. And we said, well,
Speaker 1: you don't want to make your sex life better, but
Speaker 1: you want a better sex life and you don't want
Speaker 1: to divorce or what do you want to do? He says, well,
Speaker 1: I want to take a second life. Wow, And we
Speaker 1: were like what so, you know, I don't know, are
Speaker 1: we repressed? Is he repressed? Well that's great. People have
Speaker 1: different approaches to this prison we're in called civilization that
Speaker 1: occurred after the dawn of agriculture. I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: beautiful prison. I wouldn't want to live before the dawn
Speaker 1: of agriculture. But we all have ways of repressing sexuality
Speaker 1: and we all have ways of expressing it. And I'm
Speaker 1: just here to help people. Yeah, no, and you do.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You know, you do inspire me because I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm getting old, Like I just study all
Speaker 1: the time academia, you know, I mean, I'm proud of
Speaker 1: my academic connections. But it's you know, I mean, you
Speaker 1: know all about the power of play. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: this is one of my things. And yeah, I'm very
Speaker 1: much into play, and I think id all play is
Speaker 1: just as important, absolutely, maybe more important because kids do
Speaker 1: it so naturally and then it's kind of beaten or
Speaker 1: educated out of us, and then we have to kind
Speaker 1: of relearn it in some ways. But it is so
Speaker 1: important to good sex and a good life. Okay, so
Speaker 1: do you think good sex is important for living a
Speaker 1: good life? Well, actually I didn't say that, but I
Speaker 1: know I didn't. Maybe I think so. But then there
Speaker 1: are those people that I have to respect in this
Speaker 1: political correct world who identify as asexual. Yes, asexual, and
Speaker 1: so I would have to say I'm trying. I'm learning
Speaker 1: more and more about what asexual really means, because whenever
Speaker 1: I talk one on one to a person who identifies
Speaker 1: it asexual, I find that there is some sexuality to them.
Speaker 1: I guess I just think that every human has some sexuality.
Speaker 1: They don't necessarily want to share that with others though, right,
Speaker 1: And maybe they don't, But we are all sexual creatures,
Speaker 1: were born from sex. Sex is what brings us into
Speaker 1: the world, and sex is what motivates us to stick
Speaker 1: around for a while, and you know, it cheats death.
Speaker 1: It's a great motivator. And I think that, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's good to know thy sex Socrates said no thyself.
Speaker 1: I say, no thy sex. And then you know you
Speaker 1: have to go from there. Maybe if you have very
Speaker 1: you know, questionable fetishes that would get you in trouble
Speaker 1: with iTunes, then you should stay in the erotic theater
Speaker 1: of the mind with it. And on the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's you know, you just want to switch genders, that's okay,
Speaker 1: you can get on the cover of Vanity there. You
Speaker 1: are amazing at like just on the spot, coming up
Speaker 1: with like puns and plays on words like were you
Speaker 1: just like this? And back at Yale, like if I
Speaker 1: knew you back then, I was very shy back at Yae. Really,
Speaker 1: I mean that's why I took theater. I actually first
Speaker 1: I was I did mine and then I had to
Speaker 1: learn a lot, you know, just like you, challenges make
Speaker 1: you stronger, it does it does? I now give talks,
Speaker 1: you know, in front of lots of people, and I'm
Speaker 1: definitely shy about that, definitely. I Mean the amount I've
Speaker 1: grown in just since the time you've known me is crazy. Actually. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the people that aren't shy that are just so natural,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's easy for them to crash
Speaker 1: and burn sometimes. Yeah, So we have to feel for
Speaker 1: them too. Oh, I mean, I do like your idea
Speaker 1: that we're all more or less kind of equal and
Speaker 1: we just have to find our strengths and kind of
Speaker 1: shore up our weaknesses. And yeah, yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, when we do all do different
Speaker 1: in our talents, interest preferences, et cetera, et cetera. But
Speaker 1: the key to talent is pleasure is enjoying what you're doing,
Speaker 1: because no matter how good you are at it, if
Speaker 1: you don't enjoy it, yeah, you're going to resent it. Sure.
Speaker 1: You know, we all have like a value proposition to
Speaker 1: the world, and the more that we like express that,
Speaker 1: I think the more we gain pleasure. So absolutely true. Now,
Speaker 1: like I said in the beginning, you're known for lots
Speaker 1: of things. One thing is that maybe it'll jog the
Speaker 1: memory of a lot of my listeners, is that you've
Speaker 1: done television specials in HBO, and I think I remember
Speaker 1: watching some of them as like a pubescent kid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and my executive producer is a Yale Sheila and Evans. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, cubescent kids are continuing to watch it
Speaker 1: because they keep rerunning it. We're always getting calls every
Speaker 1: week from some different people who have just seen it. Well,
Speaker 1: so remind me what it was like what you did
Speaker 1: in these specials. It wasn't part of the real sex thing, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I did some real sex segments that are
Speaker 1: also getting reruns. But I did my own series of
Speaker 1: specials called Radio Sets TV that are really just like
Speaker 1: my own show, except with a lot bigger budget and
Speaker 1: more camera people. And I guess also, I think that
Speaker 1: with HBO is when I started working with an audience,
Speaker 1: because before that I might just have a couple people,
Speaker 1: but they wanted a big studio audience. Before that, it
Speaker 1: was more just intimate, just me in a camera and
Speaker 1: maybe a guest or maybe the callers calling. And they
Speaker 1: brought in audience and then wanted more visual activities, and
Speaker 1: so I started doing more with audiences and then parties
Speaker 1: and just kind of created this unique hybrid of I
Speaker 1: guess the Greatest Sexuality Show on Earth and Fleen Party.
Speaker 1: Are there episodes online? Oh? Yeah, there's lots and lots
Speaker 1: and lots and lots of episodes from all different eras.
Speaker 1: I've been doing it since the nineteen nineties, and you
Speaker 1: can see. I guess you'd say PG rated, although maybe
Speaker 1: iTunes wouldn't consider them that. You know, they're on YouTube.
Speaker 1: They're youtubeable and without any restrictions, so you can see
Speaker 1: episodes there as well as on my site doctor Susan
Speaker 1: blockac TV, where you can see them unexpigating. While you're
Speaker 1: cracking me up so much tonight, I know, Well you're
Speaker 1: asking the questions. I love it, okay, So I'm just answering. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're the same season bog that I know
Speaker 1: and love. Okay, So I do want to talk about
Speaker 1: let's dive into the bonobo world. Look, it's a fascinating world.
Speaker 1: And I will say that I've learned so much about pinobos,
Speaker 1: more so from you than scientists and anthropologists who started
Speaker 1: this stuff. Well thanks, yeah, I do try to make
Speaker 1: science fun, you know, in ecology erotic. Yeah exactly. So
Speaker 1: you say in your book that we can learn a
Speaker 1: lot about bonobos. They reveal a lot about the nature
Speaker 1: of lust, trust, arousal, orgasm. I want to go to
Speaker 1: the whole list. Cooperation, compassion, morality, dominant submission, being human,
Speaker 1: and even being humane. That's a lot of things. Well,
Speaker 1: there there are cousins. They're very very close to us.
Speaker 1: You know, people look into disguise for an alien that
Speaker 1: might be like us, who could teach us something about
Speaker 1: our ourselves. But here are these thenobos. They're right here
Speaker 1: on Earth, and they're over ninety eight percent genetically similar
Speaker 1: to us and genetics society. You know, you just look
Speaker 1: into the big brown eyes and you know they're like,
Speaker 1: I mean, connected to us. It feels like you're looking
Speaker 1: at the missing link, you know it's And then you
Speaker 1: look at how they move and of course how they interact,
Speaker 1: and you see that they are very very close to us,
Speaker 1: and that I think is the number one important thing
Speaker 1: about the nobos is just they're close to us. I mean,
Speaker 1: all animals are precious to us, and all animals can
Speaker 1: teach us something about ourselves as animals because we are animals,
Speaker 1: and all apes can teach us something, and we are apes.
Speaker 1: The nobos are very very close to us, the closest
Speaker 1: along with common ships. And the other thing about the nobos,
Speaker 1: of course, for me and you know other sets maniacs
Speaker 1: like me, is yeah, yeah, they have a lot of sex.
Speaker 1: They have a huge amount of sex, much more than
Speaker 1: common chimps, maybe I don't know, comparable to what we have,
Speaker 1: both quality and quantity, The other thing is they empower
Speaker 1: the females much more than any other grade apes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, all the other grade apes are very very male, dominant, patriarchal,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. You could say humans are,
Speaker 1: although we go back and forth with that right now,
Speaker 1: but through our history we have been, our civilized history.
Speaker 1: But Banobo's, you know, empower the females, older females, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of rule. And they also stay younger longer. That's
Speaker 1: another thing about them. They really the lifespan there's like
Speaker 1: a Bonobo fountain of youth. It's I don't know that
Speaker 1: the lifespan is different, is much different. It's more that
Speaker 1: they're more youthful as babies. Common chimps are just as
Speaker 1: cute and youthful as banobos, but with age they just
Speaker 1: quickly turn into grumpy old eightes. And banobos, especially the males,
Speaker 1: maybe because they share leadership with the females, they seem
Speaker 1: to sip from an eternal fountain of youth. They play
Speaker 1: a lot, they're very you know, fun and now the
Speaker 1: most important thing we know about bnobos they have never
Speaker 1: been seen killing each other in the wilder captivity. They
Speaker 1: make peace through pleasure and that's why. You know, if
Speaker 1: you've ever heard of them, you've heard they're called the
Speaker 1: make love not war chimpanzees. And that doesn't make them hippies.
Speaker 1: It's not that they don't fight. They fight and they
Speaker 1: can be violent. They're not angels. They're animals like us,
Speaker 1: but unlike other great apes, and of course most egregients
Speaker 1: were humans and common ships. Piobos never murder each other
Speaker 1: and they never make war. They seem to use sex,
Speaker 1: affection and empathy to calm each other down before it
Speaker 1: descends into killing. I thought it's so interesting you said
Speaker 1: that pnomo's used positive touch to prevent and restrain negative touch.
Speaker 1: That's their default. Yes, I mean that's we use positive touch.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean they're constantly rubbing each other.
Speaker 1: Some of it's very explicit sex that would get them
Speaker 1: and X rating on iTunes, but most of it is
Speaker 1: what we might call foreplay or cuddling and licking, lots
Speaker 1: of liking and touching and rubbing and you know, kind
Speaker 1: of snuggling. Do they have cuddle parties. Yes, they have
Speaker 1: major cuddle parties that they love to combine with lunch.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm not saying that we have
Speaker 1: to do everything like bonobos. I'm not saying humans should
Speaker 1: imitate banobos. I am saying we should be inspired by them.
Speaker 1: Because when I went to Yale, you know, I thought
Speaker 1: about being an anthropology major, but you know, I just
Speaker 1: learned back then that we were hopeless killer apes, that
Speaker 1: our only paradigm for our behavior as humans was the
Speaker 1: common chimpanzee or the baboon, and they're very violent and bloodthirsty,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, you know, this is depressing. I'd
Speaker 1: rather deal with the fantasies of Shakespeare and you know,
Speaker 1: just theater. And so I didn't major in anthropology. And
Speaker 1: then in nineteen ninety three I saw a special on
Speaker 1: PBS and then the last species right before they got
Speaker 1: into humans, was the Venovo. And when they just came
Speaker 1: swinging onto my screen, I just went, WHOA, what are
Speaker 1: these incredibly hairy creatures that just seem like they have
Speaker 1: so much more fun than I've ever seen. And I affinity, totally,
Speaker 1: total affinity, and that can be a way to get
Speaker 1: beyond the civilized veneer that we live under, that you know,
Speaker 1: basically repressing us in various ways depending on our culture.
Speaker 1: So it allows us to what I call release our
Speaker 1: inner banobo or our inner animal. Yeah, I was just
Speaker 1: gonna sometimes watching animals allows us to do that. That,
Speaker 1: of course, is the first step of releasing your inner
Speaker 1: bnovo is to watch bonobos. Yeah, I mean, I was
Speaker 1: just going to say that, Like the specific question you
Speaker 1: ask your book is uh, no one ever asked me
Speaker 1: that question before, and it is, is your inner banobo
Speaker 1: yearning to swing free? Wow? What a question. That is
Speaker 1: good question. It's a really good question. But I mean
Speaker 1: it's such a great play on words there, thank you. Yes,
Speaker 1: it has I like to play with words. I like
Speaker 1: to play. I love to play, and bobos are all
Speaker 1: about play and they even play with words a little bit.
Speaker 1: You know. They there arenbos who are learning to speak
Speaker 1: English and through sign language and through computer signs, and
Speaker 1: they are amazing. Now for someone to release their inner
Speaker 1: bonobo completely, we're not talking about like they're going to
Speaker 1: want to just have sex with every single person they
Speaker 1: see on the street. That's not what we're talking about, right,
Speaker 1: of course. No, that's a huge characterization. So if I
Speaker 1: were released my inner bonobo, are we just talking about, like,
Speaker 1: you know, getting more in touch with your kind of
Speaker 1: like your sexuality, like your likes, your dislikes, being comfortable
Speaker 1: in your own body, these sorts of things. That's what
Speaker 1: we're talking about exactly, except the differences. Simply that you're
Speaker 1: being inspired by the banobos to do these things, to
Speaker 1: open up, you know, in all the ways that we
Speaker 1: want to do. It doesn't make you into some strange
Speaker 1: hybrid creature. You would just be hopefully a happier human,
Speaker 1: a more playful human. He's a more open, empathetic, paceful,
Speaker 1: you know, peaceful, yes, peaceful, peaceful human. That's what the
Speaker 1: idea of the Bnobo Way is. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of threads that leave into
Speaker 1: this tapestry of moving towards a more peaceful, more sexually open,
Speaker 1: more female empowered, more empathetic, more play positive, more eco
Speaker 1: sexual society. I think there is a worldwide movement I
Speaker 1: call it the Bnobo Way, and I think it's important
Speaker 1: that these creatures exist. And by the way, they are
Speaker 1: very endangered and we do need to help save them.
Speaker 1: And that is the last step of the twelve steps
Speaker 1: to releasing your Inner Venobo, is to save them from
Speaker 1: extinction so that they can continue to inspire us and
Speaker 1: just be here. Yeah, they provide this alternative primate paradigm
Speaker 1: for something that I think a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: positive liberals life people are moving towards anyway to enhance
Speaker 1: the quality and sustainability and sheer erotic enjoyment of human life. Now,
Speaker 1: is it true that you've run for vice president of
Speaker 1: the United States? That's correct, right, I did, and with
Speaker 1: part of Frank Moore was my presidential running mate, right,
Speaker 1: I know, And now I've done some deep research on you.
Speaker 1: Would you argue that right now, of all times and
Speaker 1: sort of politics and sort of the landscape, like we
Speaker 1: could use more of the Bonobo way. Yes, I certainly
Speaker 1: argue that. I mean, I think that, you know, without
Speaker 1: naming political names, so this this interview can be timeless.
Speaker 1: You know, we almost have a contest between Bonobo's and
Speaker 1: common chips right now in the And it's funny to
Speaker 1: see a humans sometimes in relation to our chimp cousins. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I just yeah, I kind of would like to
Speaker 1: move towards the Banobo ways of peace through pleasure of
Speaker 1: general seen empowerment. That's not to say that simply because
Speaker 1: a woman is in office, you know, she can't be
Speaker 1: like you know, Katherine the greater Margaret Thatcher and get
Speaker 1: a lot of killing done. I mean, human women are
Speaker 1: obviously capable of that, and yet I think that the
Speaker 1: feminine side of us, I guess that exists in men too,
Speaker 1: is something that is now being honored in a way
Speaker 1: that it wasn't so much in human history before. And
Speaker 1: maybe we could save ourselves from utter annihilation if we
Speaker 1: kind of acknowledge this in a positive ecosexual way. And
Speaker 1: certainly it would be good for the country, it would
Speaker 1: be good for the world. Now, what does ecosexual mean?
Speaker 1: What's the actual definition of that word? Yeah, eco sexual
Speaker 1: you know, I had there's a new book out by
Speaker 1: the way that I just wrote the forward to called
Speaker 1: eco Sexuality. Yes, And it's a collection of ings edited
Speaker 1: by doctors Serena Anderlini Donofrio, Humanity's professor at the University
Speaker 1: of Puerto Rico, and Lindsay Hageman. And she's like a
Speaker 1: farmer of an Oregon. And they're both bringing together people,
Speaker 1: scientists and erotic writers and all kinds of people, sex
Speaker 1: workers and farmers and people that have something to say
Speaker 1: about the eroticism of ecology. And I guess it's partly
Speaker 1: a movement to see Earth as not just Mother Earth,
Speaker 1: but as lover Earth, as an entity that we can
Speaker 1: connect with sexually, they can make us feel orgasmic and
Speaker 1: as well as an entity that needs our care, unlike
Speaker 1: a mother who often we take poor mothers for granted
Speaker 1: and we just imagine they'll always be there to take
Speaker 1: care of us. And the idea of lover Earth is
Speaker 1: not only I have this sexual excitement that we can
Speaker 1: get from taking a walk in the woods that one
Speaker 1: writer describes as like a natural pornographic movie, but also
Speaker 1: this sense of responsibility that we do have towards our
Speaker 1: lovers that we have to, you know, just treat them
Speaker 1: well and keep them and love them and romance them.
Speaker 1: And we have to do that with the Earth if
Speaker 1: we're going to stay on it. I mean, whatever we do,
Speaker 1: the Earth will survive one way or another with the comproaches,
Speaker 1: I guess. And what will we survive on it? Will
Speaker 1: we and the bonobos and the other large mammals like us?
Speaker 1: I think that's in question. And this movement in ecosexuality
Speaker 1: is towards trying to, you know, connect with lover Earth
Speaker 1: so that we can stay a while. We love Earth. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll put a link to that on there. I feel
Speaker 1: like a little like kid giddy like whatever I talk
Speaker 1: to you, Okay, yeah, yeah, because there's a play I think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love playing. I just absolutely love it. So I
Speaker 1: don't want to take on much more time because I
Speaker 1: would be really respectful. There are a couple more things
Speaker 1: points I think we should make about Bonova's because you
Speaker 1: make a lot of really good points in this book,
Speaker 1: and you know, we want to really what the appetite
Speaker 1: for people to go and get it, get your book.
Speaker 1: So one thing, Yeah, there's a lot of points about Banobo's.
Speaker 1: But what would you like to get into Yeah, so, uh,
Speaker 1: we'll end on the question how we you know, maybe
Speaker 1: two things we can do release in our Bonobo. But
Speaker 1: but before we get to that point, tell me, first
Speaker 1: of all, what is hokah hokah and how does it
Speaker 1: ublicate life? Great minds. I was going to I was
Speaker 1: going to say, you know, bisexuality is very important to
Speaker 1: keeping the peace and Bonobos though, and that's what hoka
Speaker 1: hoka really is. And that's what hoka hokah is really
Speaker 1: it's the females do in their their the is sex thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, hoka hokah is the Bonobo tango. The
Speaker 1: privatologists calls it genito genital rubbing. But I do think
Speaker 1: that it is not just about the physical, but it
Speaker 1: is important to the Bonobo female solidarity, the sisterhood of Banovoville.
Speaker 1: And they're not even really sisters. See, Bonobo females migrate
Speaker 1: from their original tribe that they're born into when they
Speaker 1: reach puberty, and when they get into the new tribe,
Speaker 1: they kind of suck up so to speak to whoever
Speaker 1: they feel as an interesting older female, and then they
Speaker 1: will groom with that female and you know, do hupahaka
Speaker 1: and other things, and then they become friends. They eat together,
Speaker 1: and this is the building of a sisterhood and female
Speaker 1: friendship that is very unique among great apes because if
Speaker 1: you look at common ships where the females also migrate
Speaker 1: when they go into a new tribe, the other females like, go,
Speaker 1: oh hey, girl, you're just going to have to forage
Speaker 1: on your own. Don't come near me, and they let
Speaker 1: the every sea for themselves. And among Bonobos because of
Speaker 1: this sexual intimacy that they build, which also includes lots
Speaker 1: of spending time together. As you know, sex is not
Speaker 1: just about the act. It's about spending time together, and
Speaker 1: so they develop this love for each other. And if
Speaker 1: a bonobo male is so bold and kind of ignorant
Speaker 1: as to attack a female, her girlfriends will jump on
Speaker 1: him and stop it. Wow, when you're a banobo, your
Speaker 1: girlfriends have your back. So interesting. So there's very very
Speaker 1: little rape among bonobos, and no kill him. They might
Speaker 1: smack the boy around a bit, but they don't kill him.
Speaker 1: And the males are also very bisexual in a kind
Speaker 1: of a different way. But it does help to keep
Speaker 1: the peace in the Nobo culture as well that the
Speaker 1: males when they start to fight, they will fight. They
Speaker 1: are not angels, they're animals, but they will turn the
Speaker 1: fighting into something that is sometimes called penis sencing, where
Speaker 1: they rub against each other, or they do something called
Speaker 1: rump rubbing as you call it. Actually it's a primatology
Speaker 1: term and it can be used to mean other types
Speaker 1: of activities among other animals, where penis stencing is actually
Speaker 1: kind of violent, but among bonobos it's actually it means
Speaker 1: that the violence is being transmuted into this pleasurable activity
Speaker 1: that may go on into orgasm, but just as often
Speaker 1: just ends up just being the guys just hang out
Speaker 1: and drink a beer together, well, you know, have a
Speaker 1: ban add on or something. No beer. Actually that was
Speaker 1: not right. But the idea is that the males, you know,
Speaker 1: they fight and then shake hands, they don't and that's
Speaker 1: what they sometimes called the Bonobo handshake. Okay, So you
Speaker 1: ask a very interesting question, what might happen if we
Speaker 1: could somehow reorient ourselves toward our more loving bonobo side
Speaker 1: rather than our innerman champanzee. And you quote doctor the
Speaker 1: Walls saying he doesn't believe the banobo's free love would
Speaker 1: necessarily suit us, and you take you don't compleely agree
Speaker 1: with that that quote. Now, I admire doctor de Wall.
Speaker 1: He's like one of my heroes and my idols in
Speaker 1: so many ways. He really brought attention to Banobos and
Speaker 1: he was one of the first that I started reading
Speaker 1: when I discovered them through that PBS special And I'm
Speaker 1: privileged to meet him. And he mentioned the Banovo ay
Speaker 1: and his book The Banovo and the Atheists. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: kind of think that he's not that familiar with some
Speaker 1: humans bnobovills, like the swing scene, like the polyamory scene,
Speaker 1: like the either the BDSM scene, where. But what I'm
Speaker 1: saying is, I don't know that he's familiar with how humans, Oh,
Speaker 1: I see can be as banovo ask as we can be,
Speaker 1: especially a swing party, which I feel is just like
Speaker 1: a gathering of Bnobos with less hair and more hairs.
Speaker 1: But now it doesn't mean we're just like them, you know. Again,
Speaker 1: I know you said, we don't have the arm power
Speaker 1: to swing through the trees like that, and we also,
Speaker 1: for various reasons, we're civilized. We don't have the gumption
Speaker 1: to swing sexually like they do, right, not for the
Speaker 1: most part, But I don't. I just think that, you know.
Speaker 1: And now we're kind of segueing into how to release
Speaker 1: your inner Banobo. It doesn't have to involve, you know,
Speaker 1: swinging or being just like a Banovo. It just has
Speaker 1: to involve finding that part of you that's inside that
Speaker 1: is playful and that is free and that and that swings.
Speaker 1: But you know, in a more I guess general way, Yes,
Speaker 1: what's the first step if you want to release you
Speaker 1: in Banovo? We let's not get too advanced because we
Speaker 1: want people to read your book. But what's that first
Speaker 1: first step is to watch the banobo? Like I said,
Speaker 1: you know, seeing how they how they do it. Just
Speaker 1: they're They're everywhere on the internet, so that shouldn't be
Speaker 1: a problem. It's ideal to be able to go to
Speaker 1: the congo, but they're difficult. It's as I said, they're
Speaker 1: highly endangered, so there aren't very many of them. If
Speaker 1: you have a zoo near you, you should go see
Speaker 1: them at the zoo. They're down at the San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 1: Give me one more thing that going beyond just watching
Speaker 1: them for inspiration, Well, one more thing. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: there's twelve steps. I know, I know that. I guess
Speaker 1: the third step is go Banobo's in bed, and I
Speaker 1: guess that's a that's a basic thing to emphasize here.
Speaker 1: I feel all the steps are kind of equal in
Speaker 1: a way, and of course the last step of saving
Speaker 1: the banobos is incredibly important, but going bonobos in bed
Speaker 1: is really you know, whether or not we can save
Speaker 1: the world, which I don't know. I'd like to try,
Speaker 1: but you know, the whole piece through pleasure paradigm could
Speaker 1: be a pipe dream. But certainly we can change our
Speaker 1: own life, and certainly we can improve our sex life.
Speaker 1: We can release our inner bnobo in bed with our lover,
Speaker 1: or maybe more than one lover, but usually most of
Speaker 1: us just have one, which is fine, and to just
Speaker 1: kind of try to enjoy sex like a banobo without
Speaker 1: the pretense and the hypocrisy and the shame that humans
Speaker 1: put on sex all the time. And that goes also
Speaker 1: if you don't have a partner, if you're just masturbating,
Speaker 1: because banobos masturbate, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's
Speaker 1: something that feels good. You know. Sex is something to share,
Speaker 1: but it's also, you know, something that's just a part
Speaker 1: of you, about of you feeling good, and sometimes you
Speaker 1: need to calm yourself down, and maybe if people masturbate
Speaker 1: it a little more. You know, there's a thing that's
Speaker 1: in one of the steps called metibation, where you meditate
Speaker 1: as you masturbate, and then we come back to our
Speaker 1: games in the erotic theater of the mind that help
Speaker 1: you to understand why you go for what you go
Speaker 1: for and maybe how you might be able to improve
Speaker 1: upon that or just accept that mediation. Well, but I'm
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is combine masturbation with meditation and to
Speaker 1: do it with a little more intention of owning it,
Speaker 1: you know, and not letting it be just something that
Speaker 1: takes hold of you. But the way that we approach yoga,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying you should always do that with masturbation,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's nice to just fall down and let it
Speaker 1: own you. Anyway, I'm out here, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: eating my drum and trying to save the bonobos as
Speaker 1: well as perhaps the human race, but certainly just trying
Speaker 1: to have a good time and help others to do so.
Speaker 1: I love that you say, thenobos hold a key to
Speaker 1: a world without war. Absolutely they do. They hold that key.
Speaker 1: They are so close to us in so many ways,
Speaker 1: and yet they don't kill. But that is so amazing,
Speaker 1: and can't we learn from that. We're always trying to
Speaker 1: learn how to, you know, not descend into violence, how
Speaker 1: to how to do anger management, now, what to do
Speaker 1: about our police. I'm not saying I had the answers
Speaker 1: that I am saying I think the benobos might, and
Speaker 1: we fortunately are now doing more and more studies on
Speaker 1: them because they are so sexual. Course, in those halls
Speaker 1: of academia for decades, even though they were discovered in
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, they were barely studied because you couldn't get
Speaker 1: tenure and say you look bnogos. But now I guess
Speaker 1: it's a little more liberal in some ways, although you know,
Speaker 1: my approach maybe is still kind of controversial. But certainly
Speaker 1: benobos are being studied now more and more, and there's
Speaker 1: recent studies show that they have language that they're comparing
Speaker 1: to human baby talk, So you know, they're so close
Speaker 1: to us, and the way that they use sex and
Speaker 1: affection and empathy and play to just bring that violent
Speaker 1: tension right down to where there is no killing. I'd
Speaker 1: like to just tell you one more little story if
Speaker 1: I could. They're short, No, it actually could be long.
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to make it short. I got
Speaker 1: it from Christopher Ryan just before I finished writing the book,
Speaker 1: and I showed the book to him that Christopher Rid's
Speaker 1: the author Sex is Done. And he he said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because you talk about baboons. But Robert Sapolski,
Speaker 1: who's a great primatologist from Stanford, he did a study
Speaker 1: on baboons, a long term study on this troop of baboons,
Speaker 1: and baboons are very very male dominant and violent and vicious,
Speaker 1: and they make war. And you know, they certainly were
Speaker 1: brought to me as a yale that you know, this
Speaker 1: is why humans are irredeemably violent too. So in any case,
Speaker 1: these males were right were in charge of the baboon troop,
Speaker 1: and the whole troop is right near a garbage dump
Speaker 1: that is by, you know, kind of a tourist lodge,
Speaker 1: and so it's got all this delicious junk hamburgers and cake,
Speaker 1: and of course the males, the strong males, are eating
Speaker 1: it all and fighting over it, and certainly not letting
Speaker 1: any of the females or the more nice guys have
Speaker 1: any and so the nice guys and the females are
Speaker 1: kind of towering for basically years in this way, I
Speaker 1: guess a couple of years, and the males are growing
Speaker 1: stronger and more vicious, and then one day they throw
Speaker 1: some tuberculosis tainted meat into the garbage jump, and all
Speaker 1: the males eat it and they die. And of course
Speaker 1: the females and the nicer guys didn't eat it because
Speaker 1: they weren't allowed by the stronger males. And they find
Speaker 1: themselves with a very shrunk down society of baboons without
Speaker 1: these big, strong, nasty males, and they create a community
Speaker 1: where they can live and raise their children and it's
Speaker 1: very Banova lesque. The females are in charge and the
Speaker 1: nice guys and they have no no killing anymore, and
Speaker 1: they have very little violence, and they're grooming and they're
Speaker 1: having more sex, and they're I mean, they're virtually going Bonobos.
Speaker 1: And he comes back Sepolski and he sees that they're
Speaker 1: like that ten years later, and that not only that,
Speaker 1: I don't know if those ten years or a few
Speaker 1: years later. Not only that, but in those tribes the
Speaker 1: baboon males travel. So he thought for sure when the
Speaker 1: baboon males from other tribes would come into this peaceful
Speaker 1: piece through pleasure tribe, now, they would just definate the
Speaker 1: little tribe and kill the nice guys and rape the females.
Speaker 1: But no, they kind of maintained it. They maintained this
Speaker 1: piece through pleasure harmony. And they said to the new
Speaker 1: baboon males, if you don't act nice, not gonna let
Speaker 1: you obsessed with us. We're not even gonna let you
Speaker 1: in here, so better be nice. And they were nice.
Speaker 1: And I don't know the state of the tribe the
Speaker 1: truth now, but this is a study of many years
Speaker 1: and it just shows if thea Boons can go bobos? Well,
Speaker 1: that can't wait. I say we end on that note,
Speaker 1: that question right there. Thank you so much Susan for
Speaker 1: being on my show and for the important advocacy work
Speaker 1: you do to save the menobos and to make us
Speaker 1: more peaceful as a species as well. Wow, thank you, Scott.
Speaker 1: This has been such a pleasure. Thanks thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I
Speaker 1: hope you found this episode just to stop provoking and
Speaker 1: interesting as I did. If you'd like to read the
Speaker 1: show notes for this episode, or here are past episodes,
Speaker 1: you can go to the Psychology Podcast dot com. BA