1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I think he's the creed. The impression that 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: I get of Charlie is a young man who has 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 2: a huge chip on his shoulder, thinks the world is 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: out to get him, thinks that everyone is judging him, 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: judging themselves against him, and finding themselves better. 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on 11 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories, 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind 19 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: the stories. This episode is a little different for us. 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: Ken dark Blake is a writer, but she's a fiction 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: writer a New York Times best selling fiction writer. So 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: why is she on Wicked Words when we normally only 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: feature nonfiction storytellers Because kin Dhar has done a tremendous 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: amount of research to write her book All these Bodies, 25 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: and that research was on a real spree killer who 26 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: murdered eleven people in the Midwest. He brought along his 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: young girlfriend, but was she his partner or his hostage. 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: So if you're at a dinner party and someone says, 29 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: what's this book about? Exactly, what are the themes that 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: come up with your book and also with the real 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: story behind. 32 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: It, I usually say that the story is about a 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: lot of things. It's about murders, of course, It's also 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: about teenagers. It's about small towns in Middle America. And 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: to me, the story mostly came to be about belief. 36 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit more about that. 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: I was thinking a lot about Carol, Carol Ane Fugate, 38 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: who is the young girl at the center of the story. 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 2: But mainly it was inspired by the eleven person murder 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: spree committed by nineteen year old Charles Starkweather and his 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: fourteen year old girlfriend, Caroline Fugate in nineteen fifty eight. 42 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: And I had heard about this story before. I think 43 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: we all have, or most of us have, through films 44 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: like National Born, Killers, bad Lands. There was a made 45 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: for TV movie on when I was a child called 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: Murder in the Heartland, starring Tim Roth and Feruza balk 47 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: In the title Roles, and I was always fascinated by it, 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: and by Carol in particular. She was so young, thirteen 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: when they started dating, fourteen when the murders occurred. She 50 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: was dragged along on this bloody odyssey, and no one 51 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: seemed to believe that version of her story. I just 52 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: always found that interesting. And in researching this book, I 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: read multiple accounts of the investigations, and I read one 54 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: book from Carol's defense and one book that was more traditional, 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: just the profiling of the case. And it was interesting 56 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: just how much space there was between them. Carol was 57 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: a traumatized child who was just trying to survive the ordeal, 58 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: and in the other she was a wanton woman, a 59 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: trigger happy, murderous who egged Charlie on at every turn. 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: There was so much distance between those two characterizations of 61 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: her that really interested me, and I started to think 62 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: about other stories that young women told when crimes were 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: committed against them, and how it was often difficult for 64 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: them to be believed. And then I started to think 65 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: about our cultural mindset and why we tend to disbelieve 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: young women, or at least be more skeptical of their stories. 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: And that's why I wanted to write a book like 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: all these bodies. I wanted to find one of these 69 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: young women and let her tell an impossible, unbelievable story 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: because she wasn't going to be believed anyway. Then why not? 71 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 3: So you've mentioned to me earlier, this is not your 72 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: genre normally. 73 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: No. My first novels were horror, paranormal horror. My most 74 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: recent series was a dark fantasy series. I mean, my 75 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: work's always violent. I'm no stranger or murder in any context, 76 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: and I've always been fascinated, like a lot of us are, 77 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: by true crimes and murders and serial killers. I knew 78 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: about stark Weather from a young age. I took a 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: lot of inspiration from In Cold Blood. 80 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: Okay, tell me a little bit more about that. 81 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: I'm assuming everybody who's listening to this is aware of 82 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: Capote's In Cold Blood. 83 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: He kind of like turned it on his head. Yeah, 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: he he almost created the genre, and I find that 85 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: a reading of In Cold Blood is excellent when paired 86 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: with viewings of Capote starring Philip Seymour Hoffmann and also 87 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: Infamous starring Toby Jones. They both kind of offered different 88 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: profiles into the man and different insights into his method 89 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: of interviewing, his way of profiling the town, the way 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: he went into Holcombe, the Kansas town where the Clutter 91 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: family was bruly murdered, and kind of cracked it open, 92 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: got everybody to be very candid with him and to 93 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: spill their secrets, and to just be very open in 94 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: a way that you wouldn't necessarily expect that a town 95 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: like that would be to an outsider like Trium and Capoti. 96 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: And then his relationship, the relationship that he went on 97 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: to develop with the killers through extensive jail interviews and 98 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: maybe a slightly inappropriate level of intimacy between him and 99 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: Perry Smith. It was very interesting to me, just as 100 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: a writer and as a researcher, the way that he 101 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: went about it. I found that fascinating, and just how 102 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: much the story ended up costing him in the end, 103 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: because it was true he was viewing it as art, 104 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: but he was dealing with real people, and you can't 105 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: spend that long with real people and not become mired 106 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 2: down in their complexities. You know, he knew they were killers, 107 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: but he again to know them as something else. And 108 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: that's what I wanted to explore also in all these bodies. 109 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: And that is why my narrator is a young, aspiring journalist, 110 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: because I wanted to put him in the space with 111 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: this young killer and just see what happened. 112 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: Okay, let's switch gears and talk about the murders that 113 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: Charlie stark Weather committed. 114 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: The stark Weather killings were in nineteen fifty eight. It 115 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: was about the same time when things like this just 116 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: didn't happen in the Midwest. It was very shocking, kind 117 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: of shook the nation awake and captivated their attention. But 118 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: it would be years before In cold Blood would come 119 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: out and crack it open and just blow the top 120 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: off of it in another way and let people really 121 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 2: see the inner workings of everything. 122 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that time period. So this is 123 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight in Belmont, Nebraska. But is this the 124 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: time period also for your book or do you have 125 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: a different time period. 126 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: It is my book is set in a fictional town, 127 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: very rural, in nineteen fifty eight Minnesota. Minnesota's where I 128 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: grew up. That's why I felt very comfort setting the 129 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: book there, and the choice of nineteen fifty eight seem 130 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: natural since that is when the Dark Weather murders were committed. 131 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: I like to research things that people ate, so I 132 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time with popular Minnesota recipes in 133 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties and what school children might have had 134 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: in their lunchboxes at that time. 135 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: Okay, so, just out of curiosity, what would school children 136 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: in Minnesota in nineteen fifty eight have in their lunchboxes? 137 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I think if you were lucky enough to 138 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: have a lunch box prepared from home, you did. Okay, 139 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: It was if you had to go to the school 140 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: cafeteria and have their hot lunch that you might have 141 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: been in trouble because they had some very weird things, 142 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: some very questionable cast roles, a lot of like scalloped potatoes, 143 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: meat loaf, which nobody really likes any meat loaf but 144 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: their own moms. So if you have to eat the 145 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: school's meat loaf, you never know what you're going to get. 146 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: Well, let's jump from a delicious, frankly sounding meal over 147 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: to a really really horrible string of murders. And so 148 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: again we're in nineteen fifty eight in Belmont, Nebraska. Is 149 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: this an area that is a fluid? Is it mostly 150 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: working class. 151 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: Belmont, Nebraska, which was the town where Carol met Charlie. 152 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: The town where Carol grew up could be described as 153 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: the suburb of Lincoln, and they would call it wrong 154 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: side of the tracks, low to middle working class white folks. 155 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: That was where they grew up. 156 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: Is that the kind of family background they each had. 157 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: Carol was perhaps more typical. She lived with her mother 158 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: and her stepfather in a house with an outhouse and 159 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: a chicken coop. They had some dogs, they had chickens, 160 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: of course, they had some cats. She had a new 161 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: baby sister two years old. And Charlie might have been 162 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: slightly less typical, and that he was kind of on 163 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: his own. He was living in a boarding house. I 164 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: guess he was nineteen, so maybe that's not as uncommon. 165 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: He seems so young to me. I found it strange 166 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: that he was just out on his own, But back 167 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: then kids did go out on their own sooner. So 168 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: he was the older guy. Had kind of a bit 169 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: of a James Dean fixation. It was about the time 170 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: people said that Charlie looked like James Dean before there 171 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: was a James Dean. So when James Dean came on screen, 172 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: he was very excited to see someone that reminded him 173 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: of himself. And when he was in private, he would 174 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 2: practice the poses, the cigarette hanging off his bottom lip, 175 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: the disaffected stare, the casual kind of slouch that James 176 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 2: Dean had. So eventually he was James Dean before James Dean, 177 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: but after James Dean he became more like James Dean, 178 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: So the two characters fused in his mind and he 179 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: became that outlaw, that rebel that he admired. 180 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: So it sounds like Charlie didn't have a particularly stable 181 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: family that he came from, But Carol did. It sounds 182 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: like it sounds like she had a pretty good family. 183 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: Is there a sense that there was any kind of 184 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: trouble between her mother and stepfather and her No. 185 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: Not really. She did seem to have a very good relationship, 186 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: especially with her baby sister. By all accounts, she adored 187 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: that little child. She was always spending her pocket money 188 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: to buy her gifts and presents. She babysat her all 189 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: the time, and I think that as sometimes does have 190 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: problems arise with the first boyfriend. That's never an easy 191 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: time in a teenager's life, that first big relationship. When 192 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 2: you're going out at night and you have a curfew. 193 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: Suddenly that it's a big deal if you miss that curfew. 194 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: Charlie very quickly became at odds with her stepfather. He 195 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 2: had Carol miss curfew a few times, and that's a 196 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 2: big deal. Carol's mother tried to keep the peace. You know, 197 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: It wasn't like they ever said that she couldn't see Charlie. 198 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: But she did say, if you go out with Charlie 199 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: and you miss your curfew again, your stepdad's going to 200 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: ground you something serious. But that sounded all very typical 201 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: to me. It didn't sound like there was a lot 202 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: of animosity or yelling and screaming or abuse going on. 203 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the age difference. She was fourteen, 204 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: he was nineteen. You said that she was thirteen when 205 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: they met, right, Yes, is this typical? It seems like 206 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: they weren't having him arrested or anything. 207 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: Right, Her parents really didn't object to him on those grounds, 208 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: which in this day and age I find gross and shocking. 209 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 2: I think we all think of an nineteen year old 210 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: and a thirteen year old and go, you're going straight 211 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: to jail, sir. But they were actually introduced by Carol's 212 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: older sister. Charlie was friends with the man who would 213 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: become Carol's brother in law, her sister's husband, and they 214 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: kind of like double dated. It was almost like a setup, 215 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: and from then on Charlie and Carol were fairly inseparable 216 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: until he became erratic and it was too much pressure 217 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: on the family, and she eventually broke up with him. 218 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: It seemed like it was discouraged by her stepfather, but 219 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: only because Charlie was breaking some rules that he shouldn't 220 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: have broken. I mean, it doesn't sound like there was 221 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: some moral outrage over this. 222 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think if Charlie had been 223 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: more of a gentleman, everything might have gone a different way. 224 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 3: What do you think the timeline is here? 225 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: How long do you think they dated before he started 226 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: becoming more radical. 227 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: It was at least several months that they were dating, 228 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: and they seemed like a fairly typical young couple. He 229 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: taught her how to drive, he bought her presents. They 230 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: went to drive in, they went to the movies. It 231 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: wasn't anything that was that out of the ordinary, and 232 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: most of the conflict seems to come in when they 233 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 2: would miss curfew, but Charlie would frequently be at their 234 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 2: home and nobody seemed to have a problem with it. 235 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 2: It became rather serious, I think, and maybe too serious 236 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: for Carol. She was only fourteen at the time and 237 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 2: it was causing conflict within her family. So she broke 238 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: it off. 239 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: So is she in school when she's fourteen? 240 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: She is? Yes. 241 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: What is your impression of Charlie? Just in general? 242 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: I know we've sort of said rebel without a cause, 243 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: bad boy? 244 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 3: Did people get. 245 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: An impression that he was charming, rugged, sort of James Dean, 246 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: people were drawn to him? 247 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: Or was he a creep? 248 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I think he's a creep, but I think 249 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: that there wasn't a lot of video footage of Charlie. 250 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: It was photographs for the most part that people saw, 251 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: and he photographed well enough. He had that cigarette, he 252 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 2: had spectacles, eyeglasses, his hair was nice. He had a 253 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: pleasant enough face and kind of a sly ne'er do well, 254 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: crooked smile that I could see some would think was charming. 255 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: The impression that I get of Charlie is a young 256 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: man who has a huge chip on his shoulder, thinks 257 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: the world is out to get him, thinks that everyone 258 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: is judging him, judging themselves against him, and finding themselves better. 259 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: He was bow legged, and it seems that he suffered 260 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: from a pretty decent case of impotence, and he didn't 261 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: like people to get one over on him. He was 262 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: very concerned about people perceiving him in a way that 263 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: they could feel like they were better than he was. 264 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: He didn't like to buy new clothes because it made 265 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 2: him feel less than he liked to buy from thrift 266 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: shops because everybody was on the level. He was quoted 267 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: once as saying that dead people are all on the 268 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 2: same level. 269 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: So clearly feelings of inadequacy with him. 270 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: Feelings of inadequacy for sure, which then kind of blossomed 271 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: into at first the desire to be an outlaw, kind 272 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: of a romantic Bonnie and Clyde kind of situation, and 273 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: also just a fixation on murder and death. 274 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: Okay, and so he's got this anger and he has 275 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: now a very young girlfriend who has broken up with him, 276 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: presumably he thinks because her family has said enough's enough 277 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: and I'm tired of him breaking the rules. Is that 278 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: your impression? 279 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: That was my impression. 280 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the series of events. I'm going 281 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: to spoil part of the story. Charlie and Carol were 282 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: eventually caught, and they turn on each other, so they 283 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: have different versions of what happened that day that Charlie 284 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: murdered Carol's family. Her mother and her stepfather, and her 285 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: two year old sister are all home and it's January 286 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: twenty first, nineteen fifty eight. 287 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: Carol says she came home found Charlie at her house 288 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: with a gun. He held her inside basically like a hostage, 289 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: for multiple days, telling her that her family was being 290 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: held in a house nearby by a gang of his friends, 291 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: and if she didn't behave herself and do as she 292 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: was told, he was going to have them killed. And 293 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: according to Charlie, Carol came home, the family was there, 294 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: she watched him murder them, and at some points he 295 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: does say that she might have participated in some way. 296 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: He shot her father, he shot her mother, and then 297 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: his accounting of how he killed the baby changes. Sometimes 298 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: he says he strangled her and beat her to death. 299 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: Sometimes he says he threw a knife at her and 300 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: it hit her in the chest. But then we know 301 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: for sure that he disposed of the bodies in the 302 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: outhouse and the chicken coop, the stepfather he plays in 303 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: the chicken coop, and the mother and baby he hid 304 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: in the outhouse. The mother was mostly all the way 305 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: down the toilet, and Carol kept people away from the 306 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: house for days. That is also documented because people did 307 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: go and check on them. Even the police went and 308 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 2: checked on them to make sure everything was all right. 309 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: And Carol answered the door and said that they all 310 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: had the flu, and that she turned away all the visitors. 311 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: She hung a sign on the door that seemed suspicious. 312 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: Later it said go away please, everyone sick with the flu. 313 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,479 Speaker 2: Flu is misspelled fule, and she signed it as Miss Bartlett. 314 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: Her name was Carol Ann Fugate, her mother was missus Bartlett, 315 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: but the only Miss Bartlett that was there would have 316 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: been the two year old baby, who obviously couldn't write 317 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: a note, So some have speculated was Carol trying to 318 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: code a message to police to tell them that something 319 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: was not right, something was going on, and just nobody 320 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: figured it out. 321 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: So this is interesting because we get into the issue 322 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: of culpability with her here. So legally she is covering 323 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: something up. 324 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: She may not have known what she was covering up, 325 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: but yes, she was covering something. 326 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: What is the dynamic between their relationship, he calls the shots. 327 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: I'm assuming. 328 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: I mean, there are a few different takes on that, 329 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: and this is just the many ways that Carol herself 330 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: is characterized. You'll be reading accounts of the investigation and 331 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: it's like you're reading about two totally different people. By 332 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: some witness accounts, she was seen bossing Charlie around, smacking 333 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: him smack on the shoulder and tell him to get 334 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: a move on, that sort of thing. By others, she 335 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: was quiet and very much the typical girlfriend, just along 336 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: for the ride, just doing as she was told. So 337 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: I can't be sure. 338 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: Okay, so there are two bodies in the outhouse, there's 339 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: a body in the chicken coop. What do we think 340 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: Carol and Charlie are doing for these several days when 341 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: they've kept people at bay from the house. Are they 342 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: preparing to go on this spree that becomes sort of 343 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: legendary for them. 344 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: Not really. Neither of them seem to say that they 345 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: were preparing for anything. They were just kind of lazing about. 346 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: Charlie said that they had sex all the time and 347 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: twice on Sundays. That was what he said was happening. 348 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: Carol would later say that they did not. She was 349 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: questioned extensively and very in great detail later on about 350 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: their sexual activities, and she didn't seem to really un 351 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 2: understand what sex was. She knew what a penis was, 352 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: but she couldn't say whether or not they had actually 353 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: had sex. 354 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: She had a physical exam. 355 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 2: Yes, I did find accounts that said that she was 356 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,959 Speaker 2: examined and her hymen was found to be intact. So 357 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: if she had all of this sex, one would think 358 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 2: maybe it would not be not necessarily, But in other 359 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 2: accounts there was no mention of that at all. So 360 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 2: that was another interesting aspect of the research portion of 361 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 2: this was depending on whose book I was reading. It 362 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: was interesting what they would just omit to serve the 363 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: point of their narrative. 364 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: When do you know in this story when to stop 365 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: your research and start this fictional story, Because you can 366 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: go down a huge rabbit hole with this case, which 367 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: is fairly famous. 368 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: I kind of eventually just this is my personal process. 369 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: Eventually the story will just demand that I knock what 370 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 2: I'm doing off and just start writing. It'll just bother 371 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: me like a gnat in my ear or a tap 372 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 2: on my shoulder, until it's finally like, no, you need 373 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: to start doing this. You can keep on researching on 374 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 2: the fly. Go ahead, but you're gonna have to start 375 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: putting some of this stuff down on paper because it's 376 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: just it's coming into my mind too quickly, and that 377 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: tells me it's time. The story is ready to go. 378 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 2: I should just let it out. 379 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: How long do you think you read about the Starkweather 380 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: and Fugate case before you jumped in to your own story. 381 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 2: So I think I researched fairly intensely for about a month, 382 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: and then I just drove in. It seems like I've 383 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: been half listening to stark Weather Fugate for most of 384 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 2: my life. I've seen natural killers. I watch Murder in 385 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: the Heartland. Every time there was something like on TV 386 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: about them, I kind of tune in. I've always been 387 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: interested in the stark Weather Fugate case. 388 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: So Charlie and possibly Carol have now killed her parents 389 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: and her two year old little sister, and they have 390 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: hidden the bodies and now they're hold up inside this house. 391 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: This is a terrible situation. We aren't sure if Carol 392 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: is a willing participant or she you might have been 393 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: forced into all of this, We don't know. And now 394 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: they start to sort out what to do next. Do 395 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: they have a plan to cover up the murders of 396 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: her family and get away with it? Do they have 397 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: any idea what they're going to do? 398 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: I don't know that they had any idea. They were 399 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: simply going on the run. And bear in mind that 400 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: the murder of Carroll's family was not actually Charlie's first kill. 401 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 2: What his first murder was committed weeks before. Seven weeks earlier, 402 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: he murdered a gas station attendant named Bob Culvert to 403 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 2: get some pocket money to take Carol out with. It 404 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: was planned, He covered it up successfully, He moved the body, 405 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: he went back for his shellcasings and collected them. And honestly, 406 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: had it not been for this later string of murders, 407 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: Bob Culvert's murder may never have been solved. But by 408 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: this point in Charlie's story, he was already on his 409 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: way to becoming a seasoned murderer. He and Carol departed 410 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: from their family home on January twenty seventh, and they 411 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: went for help, supposedly to a friend of Charlie's. He 412 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: was a farmer named August Meyer who was seventy years old, 413 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: and their car got stuck in his driveway, and by 414 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 2: Charlie's accounts, well, they were both pretty upset about that. 415 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: They were just getting on the road and they'd come 416 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: to him for help, and by Charlie's account, Carol got 417 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: so mad that she said they should kill him too, 418 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: just for not cleaning out his driveway. They did end 419 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 2: up killing him and his dog. They'd chased his dog 420 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: into the marsh, so they left both of them dead. 421 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: So this is his friend, Is that right? And he 422 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: shows up to the house and the car gets stuck 423 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: and he decides to kill them. I find that hard 424 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: to believe that is Carol's idea at all. I mean, 425 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: do you feel like that. 426 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: I find it hard to believe. I find Charlie's accounts 427 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: of Carol to be hard to believe. In many ways. 428 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 2: Charlie likes to say that Carol was the most trigger 429 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: happy person he ever met. But yes, august Meyer was 430 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 2: Charlie's friend, and he was an old man seventy and 431 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 2: he would have helped them. He would have helped them 432 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: get that car out of the ditch. I have no doubt. 433 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: I think he was in process of helping them. Instead, 434 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: they killed him. So after they murdered august Meyer and 435 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 2: left him for dead, their car broken down, two teenagers 436 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: offered them a ride. The teenagers were Robert Jensen and 437 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 2: Carol King. Robert Jensen's murder was the murder that Charlie 438 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 2: would later be convicted for and sent to the electric chair. 439 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,719 Speaker 2: He killed Robert Jensen in a storm. Cellar shot him 440 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: in the back of the head. Then he attempted to 441 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 2: rape King, but he became frustrated, shot and killed her, 442 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: and then posthumously mutilated the body with his knife. When 443 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: Charlie was arrested, at first he said to leave Carol alone, 444 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 2: leave the girl alone, she had nothing to do with it. 445 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: But later on his story began to change, and one 446 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 2: of the stories that he changed was the murder of 447 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: Carol King. He later went on to say that Carol 448 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: Ane Fugate was the one who shot and killed King. 449 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 2: And mutilated her body out of some kind of jealousy. 450 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 3: I want to back up just a second. 451 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: How do they go from hitchhiking with two teenagers to 452 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: someone's house. 453 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 3: Did the teenagers invite them home? Is that what happened? 454 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 2: No, it was an abandoned storm celler as far as 455 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: I can tell. Oh, okay, they just had them drive 456 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: to the storm cellar. And at one point Carol did 457 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 2: hold a gun on one of the teenagers that she 458 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: admits to. She says it was because Charlie told her 459 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: to do it and she was scared, but she did. 460 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 2: She did participate in that, and they also robbed them. 461 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 2: So at first they were just hitchhiking and then they 462 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: led them to the storm cellar and killed them. 463 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Charlie's record so far. So there 464 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: is the gas station attendant seven weeks earlier. Right, Yes, 465 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: we have her mother or her stepfather, her younger sister 466 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: who are killed. Then you've got an old man, August Meyer, 467 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: who's killed, and then two teenagers. 468 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 3: Does this end sometime soon? 469 00:23:59,280 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: No? 470 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: That brings us to seven victims, and we have to 471 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 2: get all the way to eleven. Gosh, So in January 472 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: twenty eighth, they made their way to Lincoln, and this 473 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 2: time they tarted a wealthy home, perhaps thinking that they 474 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: could score a little more cash to keep them on 475 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: the road longer. A maid was home, Lillian Fenkel, they 476 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: stabbed her to death, killed another dog, and waited for 477 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: the wealthy homeowners to return. The wife, Clara Ward, returned 478 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: home first. She was stabbed to death, and the husband, 479 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: mister Clawer Ward, was later shot when he returned that evening. 480 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 2: The duo robbed them and stole their nineteen fifty six 481 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 2: black Packard, which was a very conspicuous and luxurious car. 482 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: And that is really when the story takes the turn, 483 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: because murdering rich folks is bad business. People don't look 484 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: the other way for that. That is going to get out. 485 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: The governor got involved, the National Guard, the Nebraska National 486 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 2: Guard was called in. The police started doing block by 487 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: block searches go and it wasn't very long before they 488 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: needed to ditch that car because everybody was looking for 489 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: that fancy black Packer. That's when they came upon a 490 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: shoe salesman, a halfless shoe salesman named Merle Collison, was 491 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 2: asleep in his back seat on the side of the road, 492 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: they shot him, tried to steal the car, but Charlie 493 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: didn't know how to release the parking brake, so the 494 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: car stalled. Another motorist passed by stopped to help. Charlie 495 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 2: threatened him. They fought, and just at that moment, a 496 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: police cruiser happened to pass by, and Carol ran to 497 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: the police officer, and that is where their murder spree ended. 498 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 2: She ran to the police car screaming something like he 499 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: shot a man. That's Charlie stark Weather. He's going to 500 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: kill me too. Charlie jumps in the other car. He 501 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: drives off. There's a high speed chase involving I believe 502 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: three other police cars Espeentually, one of them takes a 503 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 2: shot at Charlie's car. It strikes the windshield and he 504 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: was cut by the glass and thought he was dying. 505 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: So he pulls over and gives himself up. 506 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: That's unbelievable, and we can get more into this once 507 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: we get to the trial. The dual personas of Carol. So, 508 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: on the one hand, I see Charlie being this intimidating, upsetting, obsessive, violent, 509 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: threatening man who she's with. On the other hand, I 510 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: see opportunities for her to go. 511 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 2: Of course, in my research into Carol Ane Furiate, I 512 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 2: go back and forth myself, and that's part of the 513 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: point of my own novel, All These Bodies, is that 514 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: we have a central murder suspect. She's found at the scene, 515 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: totally covered in blood. There's no question as to whether 516 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: or not she was involved in some way, and the 517 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: question then becomes do we believe her story or not? 518 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: And all you've got to go on is her story. 519 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: And in this case, where there were no surviving witnesses, 520 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 2: not a whole lot of forensic evidence that didn't just 521 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 2: tell us what we already knew that Caroly and Charlie 522 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: were at the house and that they both handled the weapons. 523 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: All we have to go on is Carol's account and 524 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 2: Charlie's account, and who do we believe? And as I 525 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 2: was doing my research, I went back and forth. There 526 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: are moments where I look at Carolyn, I think, why 527 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: this is where you could have gone? And then I think, 528 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 2: but if you really believed him that he had your 529 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: family and one phone call could kill them all, then 530 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: you don't go anywhere. You write it out, you think 531 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 2: that it's all going to be over somehow, So I 532 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: don't know. I was never able to really come to 533 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: a consensus about that, even with myself, about Carol's actual 534 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: guilts or actual innocence. When it comes to the kind 535 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: of true crime where all we have is some person's accounting, 536 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: you never really know, and you just kind of have 537 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 2: to decide for yourself. 538 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: So tell me what happens. They are arrested, both of them? 539 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: Are they arrested. 540 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: Charlie is arrested pretty immediately. Carol, it's not so fast. 541 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: She's a teenager, she's a girl. Nobody's seen her face 542 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: splashed across the newspapers yet. They just want to make 543 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: sure she's okay, and they want to find out what happened. 544 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: And there are different accounts of what she said when 545 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: she was taken into custody. Depending on whose book you read, 546 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 2: you're going to get one or the other. Usually you 547 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: won't find both. The man she was writing with directly 548 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: after said she was talking a mile a minute about 549 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 2: how she'd witnessed all of these crimes, she'd seen Charlie 550 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: kill everyone, and that she'd seen Charlie kill her family, 551 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: and then she kind of just shut down and started 552 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 2: babbling According to another person, the woman who did Carol's 553 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: intake into the jail got her settled. She said she 554 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: didn't seem like she thought Carol knew that her family 555 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: was dead. She remarked to someone immediately after and asked them, 556 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: does she know her family is dead? I don't think 557 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: she knows her family is dead. Carol was asking for 558 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: her mom, wondering when they were going to come and 559 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: pick her up, wondering why her mom hadn't called her yet, 560 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So, yes, Charlie was charged pretty immediately, 561 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: but it took some time to decide what they were 562 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: going to do with Carol. 563 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: What did Carol's statement to the police, which should have 564 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: been consistent? 565 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 3: What was that statement like? 566 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 2: No, it was very back and forth. Sometimes she couldn't remember. 567 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: They characterized it as stacksliding. When it seemed like she 568 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: might have said too much and may incriminate herself, she 569 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: tended to draw back, become unintelligible, say she couldn't remember 570 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: that kind of thing, which was not a good way 571 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: to be characterized either. 572 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: It sounds like she's smarter beyond fourteen to be able 573 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: to do that. So the impression that the police are 574 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: getting is sort of a potential manipulator, Is that right? 575 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: I think so to some extent. There are really only 576 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: two journalists who covered the case extensively, and one of 577 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: the reporters they talked extensively about how as journalists they 578 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: had to remain objective, and then in the next sentence 579 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: they said, but I knew the first time I saw 580 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: Caroline Feet she was guilty. Oh gosh, I could tell 581 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: just by looking at her that she was at least 582 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: a willing accomplice, if not an outright killer. And the 583 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 2: other journalists was quoted as saying, well, she's fourteen, but 584 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: she's an old fourteen. She's done every sex act in 585 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: the book, as if promiscuity or engaging in sex acts 586 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: with some naturally lead to murders. When they were questioning Carol, 587 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: they did not spare anything. They questioned her extensively. The 588 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: interviews were very long, hours at a time, circular questions 589 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: using their same grilling tactics that they would on any 590 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 2: hardened criminal. And I had to ask myself whether the 591 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: fact that Charlie was her boyfriend really colored our opinion 592 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: of Carol's role in this. If they had been strangers 593 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 2: and she had been fourteen and he had been nineteen. 594 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: I think I think we'd be having an entirely different conversation. 595 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: But because they were romantically linked, and according to him, 596 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: they were very sexually intimated, it adds another layer to 597 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: who she was and how they painted her in the press, 598 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: and later Charlie would go on to be the star 599 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: witness at her trial. 600 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: He is controlling the narrative, right, He is the one 601 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: who is painting her as a promiscuvous woman, which, of course, 602 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: in the press is interpreted the way you said, which 603 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: is someone who is just a few steps away from 604 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: committing crimes. And now he is the star witness her case. 605 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: Has he gone on trial first or does she go 606 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: on trial first. 607 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: He's gone on trial first. He's already been convicted. So 608 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: by the time he testifies at Carroll's trial, he is 609 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: on death row. He knows he's going to be executed already. 610 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: Why would he do with that? I don't understand why 611 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: he would do that. What's there to win if he 612 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: testifies against her. 613 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: He was quoted as saying he was happy to go 614 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: to the electric chair as long as Carol would sit 615 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: on his lap. At first, he seemed more interested in 616 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: protecting her. His first words were go easy on the girl. 617 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: She didn't have anything to do with it. But later 618 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: his story changed, and the account that he gave after 619 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: his story changed wasn't always in keeping with the forensic evidence. 620 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 2: It didn't even seem to make much sense even when 621 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: he changed his story. He changes story multiple times, and 622 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 2: there has been some speculation that prosecutors in Carrol's trial 623 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: were kind of winding him up, telling him that she 624 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: was leaving him twisting in the wind. She didn't want 625 00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: to speak with him, didn't want to have anything to 626 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: do with them anymore, had kind of just thrown into 627 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 2: the world. 628 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: So they worked hard to flip him against her. 629 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: There is some indication that, yes, they flipped him. 630 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: I'm just so surprised, and this is me being naive 631 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: that in the nineteen fifties that a prosecutor would be 632 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: so keen on prosecuting a fourteen year old girl. I 633 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: find it hard today to think of a fourteen year 634 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: old girl being a co conspirator in crimes like this. 635 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: It just seems like out of the realm of possibility 636 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, and yet this prosecutor clearly was 637 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: going after her. Is there some aspect that you think 638 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: flipped the prosecutor over to this? 639 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: I don't know. It could have been. I mean, to me, 640 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: fourteen seems like a child. 641 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, the sex thing, it. 642 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: May have been, because fourteen years old, that's a traumatized child. 643 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 2: And however that child reacts to trauma. I'm going to 644 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: give the benefit of the doubt to that child. So 645 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 2: that's just me and the prosecutor certainly didn't agree. As 646 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: I've mentioned previously, Carol was characterized as a wanton woman. 647 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 2: Did every sex act in the book. She was fourteen, 648 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: but she was an old fourteen And of course, back 649 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: then and even to some extent today, women don't commit 650 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: violent crimes, and when they do, people want an explanation. 651 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: So there was a saying that if a woman committed 652 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: a violent crime, she was either bad, sad or mad. 653 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: So which one is it? And as soon as we 654 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: find that explanation, then everybody sleeps well at night. 655 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 3: So this is what's interesting to me. 656 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: Does he ever pin everything on her and he was 657 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: just some guy along the way or he admits to 658 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: some of these the men, Is that right? 659 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 2: Yes, Charlie never tried to pin everything on Carol, he 660 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: wanted to be an outlaw. That was part of his identity. 661 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 2: He didn't seem to regret it. So no, he always 662 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 2: claimed all of the men, all of the men were 663 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: him well. 664 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: And that's smart because I don't think anybody would believe 665 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: testimony from him accusing her of everything, so he testifies 666 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: against her. Do we get a sense from the press 667 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: of what her reaction is during this time testimonial or 668 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: just in general? During the trial? Is she quiet and pensive? 669 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 2: The accounts given by journalists who are covering the trial, 670 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: they describe her as quiet, as reserved. Sometimes they describe 671 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 2: her as cold. One of the headlines was smiling Carol 672 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: breaks down, So in one headline they describe her as 673 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: cold and gleeful and hysterical just right there. So it 674 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 2: was not flattering. I think there was a feeling that 675 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: if she was a child, she should act more like 676 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 2: a child. She shouldn't be so cold and so reserved, 677 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 2: She should be crying all the time, or just looked terrified. 678 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: But she held it together, and Carol later tried to 679 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: explain this by saying, all she kept thinking was they 680 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: can't convict me for something I didn't do. I'm not 681 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: going to show them anything. I can be tough, I 682 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 2: can be strong. She is convicted on November twenty first, 683 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight. She's sentenced to life. She's paroled in 684 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 2: June I, eighteen seventy six after serving a little over 685 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 2: seventeen years. She's always maintained her innocence, even as recently 686 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 2: as a couple of years ago. She appealed the court 687 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 2: to overturn her conviction because she just couldn't take the thought, 688 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 2: as she was growing older, that people would think that 689 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: she knew that her family was dead. That whole time, 690 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 2: she just couldn't handle that people would believe that she 691 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 2: knew that her family was dead, that she'd seen them 692 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: be killed. So that appeal was denied. She'd tried to 693 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 2: appeal it a couple of times before. And if you 694 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 2: speak to other people who were associated with the case, 695 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 2: the prosecutors, the journalists, they're mostly annoyed that she continues 696 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 2: to assert her innocence. They want her to be, you know, 697 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 2: more contrite and just you know, admit it and come 698 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 2: to terms with that so that we can all move on. 699 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: But she has not, and I don't think she ever 700 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: will at this point. 701 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: My mom was born in forty three, so she was 702 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: born in around what forty four or something like that. 703 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: She's in her late seventies. So Charlie is execus. He's 704 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: in the electric chair, right, he dies in the electric chair. 705 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 2: Yes, Charlie is executed in June of nineteen fifty nine. 706 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: What is your interest or the public's interest in couple killers? 707 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: To me, it is so bizarre. I can't wrap my 708 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: head around couple killers, especially. 709 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: Couple killers that go off on a free like this. 710 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 2: It echoes that kids on the run, Bonnie and Clyde 711 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 2: criminals in love. I don't know. Maybe the fact that 712 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: we think of them as being in love. They must 713 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: have some justification for their violence. They must be fighting 714 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: against something to try to be together. And that's a 715 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 2: twisted notion, but a romantic twisted notion. Physically, she did 716 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 2: have opportunities to go. One of the opportunities that is 717 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 2: most often noted is they stopped in at a diner 718 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: to get hamburgers, and Carol was the one who went 719 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 2: inside to order the hamburgers and wait for them to 720 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: be finished cooking, which took about ten minutes. She says 721 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 2: she tried to pass a note, but the note was 722 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: never found, and the waitress who waited on her said 723 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: she didn't seem particularly agitated, But after Charlie came in 724 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: and they were leaving, she noted that Carol looked at 725 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 2: her through the window and stared at her the whole 726 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: way around the building until they were out of sight, 727 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 2: and she thought that was odd. But why was that odd? 728 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 2: Was she trying to communicate that she needed help and 729 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 2: that she needed to be rescued, or was she just 730 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 2: worried that the waitress was suspicious of them? So there 731 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 2: are a lot of possible explanations. 732 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: Where do you think this case fits sort of in 733 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: the history of true crime? 734 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 3: Why are people drawn to it? 735 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it occurred during a time in our 736 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 2: history where this kind of thing just didn't happen. Kids 737 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: were still young, they were still going to Bobby Socks 738 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: dances and staying at home with their parents watching the 739 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: Is Love Lucy Show, and these two young people just 740 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 2: went on this rampage. I think it was shocking, and 741 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 2: anything shocking. It's fascinating for me. What I was always 742 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 2: the most interested in is Carol. Carol was always such 743 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 2: a puzzle because if she was a willing participant. That's 744 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 2: still interesting because what about Charlie made him so appealing 745 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 2: that she would allow herself to be dragged along on 746 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: this terrifying ordeal. I always wondered what had happened, what 747 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 2: happened in their relationship? What kind of person was she 748 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 2: that this happened to her? Or this is what she 749 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 2: participated in. 750 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 3: I think you should consider being a nonfiction writer. 751 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: It was fun to do the research, but I think 752 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: I'll just keep on making stuff up. 753 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, words Kevin Birmingham on 754 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 1: a French serial killer who inspired an iconic writer. 755 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 4: The blade jams halfway down and lasonniere realizes what's happening, 756 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 4: and his response is to take his body and contort it. 757 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 4: You can turn upwards and look at the blade calls 758 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 4: about to fall down. 759 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: On his neck. 760 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: My new book All That Is Wicked is available now, 761 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on 762 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold more Wicked. You might think 763 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: you know the whole story of killer Edward. 764 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 3: Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book American 765 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 3: Sherlock is also available. 766 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right tenfold More Media Production. 767 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 3: The producer is Alexis Imirosi. Our mixer is Ryo Baum. 768 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer, Nick Toga did the artwork. 769 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 3: Ilsa Brink designed the website. 770 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 771 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 772 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you 773 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention, 774 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: especially if it happened in your family, email us at 775 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldwar wicked dot com. We'll also take your 776 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words