WEBVTT - Fusion Is Promising, but Isn't a Near-Term Solution

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<v Speaker 1>Fusion is going to change everything we know about energy

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<v Speaker 1>right well, not so fast, and I mean that literally,

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<v Speaker 1>It's not going to happen fast. Today we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>the new fusion breakthrough and why it could be a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty big deal in the energy industry in the very

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<v Speaker 1>distant future. Hello, and welcome back once again to partsper Billion,

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<v Speaker 1>the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz,

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<v Speaker 1>So strap on your thinking caps everyone. This is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a pretty science heavy episode today. We're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the future of energy in light of a major

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<v Speaker 1>scientific breakthrough. Scientists the Department of Energies Lawrence Livermore Laboratory

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<v Speaker 1>in California announced this week that they created a net

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<v Speaker 1>energy positive fusion reaction, or in other words, a fusion

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<v Speaker 1>reaction that produced more energy than it took to create.

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<v Speaker 1>After the announcement, you might have heard some folks saying

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<v Speaker 1>that this could be in a future without energy scarcity

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<v Speaker 1>and without carbon emissions. Pretty exciting prospect. But as you'll

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<v Speaker 1>hear today, that future is actually pretty far off, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot further than many policymakers and Joe Biden in particular,

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<v Speaker 1>would be willing to admit. We're gonna be talking about

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<v Speaker 1>nuclear fusion with Bloomberg News energy reporter Will Wade, and

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<v Speaker 1>of course I started off by asking Will to give

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<v Speaker 1>us a little science lesson and explain exactly how fusion

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<v Speaker 1>really works. Nuclear fusion, it's an idea that's been around

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<v Speaker 1>since the fifties. You're probably familiar with nuclear fission. That's

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<v Speaker 1>what we use in nuclear power plants. And what happens

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<v Speaker 1>there is you have a large atom and it literally splits,

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<v Speaker 1>and in that process it releases a whole lot of energy.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the same thing we saw in the first nuclear

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<v Speaker 1>bombs back in the nineties. So nuclear fusion is the

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<v Speaker 1>process that happens inside stars. It's inside our sun. And

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<v Speaker 1>what happens is you have small atoms. In this case,

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<v Speaker 1>they've used two isotopes of hydrogen and you smash them

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<v Speaker 1>together and they fuse into something else. So the hydrogen

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<v Speaker 1>becomes helium and in the process that also releases a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of that gy So the concept has been around

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<v Speaker 1>for decades. It's been one of those theoretical things that

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<v Speaker 1>people have said, we think this will work. So what

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<v Speaker 1>happened that Lawrence Livermore Labs was they call it net

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<v Speaker 1>energy game so they smashed atoms together and they used

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<v Speaker 1>a whole bunch of lasers. In fact, they use some

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<v Speaker 1>of the most powerful lasers on Earth. And it took

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<v Speaker 1>them about two mega joules of energy to trigger this reaction,

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<v Speaker 1>and when the fusion reaction happened, it released three mega

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<v Speaker 1>jules of energy. So what that means is more energy

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<v Speaker 1>came out than came in, and that's what they've been

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<v Speaker 1>trying to achieve for decades. That's one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that surprised me, and I think that I learned from

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<v Speaker 1>your reporting and other reporting on this is that fusion

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<v Speaker 1>itself is not difficult. I mean, of course it's very difficult,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's not something that we just learned how to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Fusion is is something that's been around for a while.

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<v Speaker 1>It's this concept of a fusion reaction that generates energy

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<v Speaker 1>instead of takes up energy. That's the real, the big breakthrough. Yeah. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>the thing with the fusion reaction is that it's hard

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<v Speaker 1>to get it going, and it takes a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>energy to trigger a fusion reaction. A lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>it uses a lot of heat. In this case, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it was about three million degrees centigrade. And that

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<v Speaker 1>heat is what sort of helps the atoms fuse together. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I will say I grew up in twoson Arizona, so

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<v Speaker 1>three million doesn't sound that you know, doesn't sound that

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<v Speaker 1>bad to me anyway. Um So, So the idea is

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<v Speaker 1>that it takes energy to get the fusion reaction going,

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<v Speaker 1>but if it is releasing more energy, that means you

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<v Speaker 1>can sustain the reaction. So if it takes two mega

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<v Speaker 1>jewels to get it going and you've got three mega

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<v Speaker 1>jewels coming out, that means you can use the two

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<v Speaker 1>mega jewels in theory to keep it going, and it

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<v Speaker 1>gives you a surplus mega jewel of energy which you

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<v Speaker 1>can harvest and use for a commercial power plant. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the basic theory. You're gonna need a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>gain than that, but that's the key idea. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the benefits of fusion versus fission. UM. I

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<v Speaker 1>think we all know the downsides of fission, which is

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<v Speaker 1>radioactive waste among other uh potential downsides, but they sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like the main issue is that you create a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of radioactive materials that are going to be radioactive for

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of years. UM. I get a sense with fusion,

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<v Speaker 1>that's not necessarily the case. Do I have that right? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that's exactly right. So with nuclear fission, we what we

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<v Speaker 1>use now is uranium, and the fuel rods, once they've

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<v Speaker 1>been used up, they're probably some of the most dangerous

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<v Speaker 1>things on Earth. They're deadly for thousands of years. And

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<v Speaker 1>our strategy right now is to seal them up in

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<v Speaker 1>a big steel and concrete cask and it just sits there.

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<v Speaker 1>So fusion doesn't do this. Fusion runs on hydrogen. Hydrogen

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<v Speaker 1>is really safe. The byproduct in this case has been helium.

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<v Speaker 1>Helium is safe. We don't have that leftover uranium that's

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<v Speaker 1>super toxic. Now, it's not correct to say there's no waste.

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<v Speaker 1>There's also a lot of neutrons flying around, and neutrons

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<v Speaker 1>will eventually leave some of the materials radioactive, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>not nearly as dangerous as the toxic waste from new

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<v Speaker 1>clear power plants now and we should also, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>we're you know, fusion sounds it sounds like could be

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<v Speaker 1>cleaner and safer than fission, but I mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>anything that involves millions of degrees if temperature, it can't

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<v Speaker 1>be totally safe, right, I mean, there are some risks

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<v Speaker 1>here to nuclear fusion, right, Well, there's some risks, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's not quite the same. Now, you've probably heard of

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<v Speaker 1>meltdowns or something called the China syndrome, and that's because

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<v Speaker 1>once you have a nuclear fission reaction going a nuclear

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<v Speaker 1>power plant, it's hard to control. That's why they have

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<v Speaker 1>water to keep it cool. That's why they have boron

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<v Speaker 1>rods to sort of act as damping elements in the

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<v Speaker 1>in the reactor core. That reaction is going and it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to control it. You could lose control of the

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<v Speaker 1>reaction in a nuclear power plant. Now, fusion, if you remember,

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<v Speaker 1>takes a lot of energy to get it going. What

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<v Speaker 1>that means is if you somehow lose control of the system,

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<v Speaker 1>if something breaks down, that energy goes away, you lose

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<v Speaker 1>control of the reaction. It shuts down. It shuts downs

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<v Speaker 1>in like a fraction of a second, it goes away.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a problem that's really interesting. So it's almost

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<v Speaker 1>like a fail safe pretty much. If if something goes

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<v Speaker 1>wrong with a fusion power plant, the first thing that

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<v Speaker 1>happens is it shuts itself down. Okay, let's blessedly move

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<v Speaker 1>away from the science here and get to the public policy. Okay, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so President Biden has said that he wants

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<v Speaker 1>a working nuclear fusion reactor to be up and running

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<v Speaker 1>in ten years from now. Um, based on your reporting,

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<v Speaker 1>I get the sense that's a very aspirational goal, and

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<v Speaker 1>that may be putting it kind. Is that possible ten

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<v Speaker 1>years from now we'll see a reactor? Well, I'll say

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<v Speaker 1>that it's okay for him to want that. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if it's going to be possible. It's it's an

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<v Speaker 1>aspirational goal. We've heard different things. When they announced its

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<v Speaker 1>Energy Secretary Grant Home said yeah, we could do this

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<v Speaker 1>in a decade, and then they brought out the head

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<v Speaker 1>of Lawrence Livermore Labs, who is the scientist and not

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<v Speaker 1>the politician and maybe knows a little bit more about it,

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<v Speaker 1>and her reaction was decades. Maybe not five or six

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<v Speaker 1>decades like we used to think, but decades. So it

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<v Speaker 1>sounded like she was pouring a little cold water on that.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if we can have it in a decade,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's a nice target to shoot for, because if

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<v Speaker 1>we can actually have a fusion power plant, it's not

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<v Speaker 1>overstating it to say that this would solve a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the world's problems. It's abundance clean energy that runs

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<v Speaker 1>around the clock. It's it's exactly what we need. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And then finally I wanted to talk about the research

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<v Speaker 1>aspect of this. And when I say research, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>research funding. You reported that, you know, this breakthrough is

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<v Speaker 1>going to kind of trigger a big increase in research

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<v Speaker 1>dollars towards nuclear fusion. However, when I read that, I

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<v Speaker 1>was thinking, you know, is this a zero sum game,

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<v Speaker 1>because there's a lot of potential energy projects that could

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<v Speaker 1>yield you know, interesting results. I'm specifically thinking of, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>batteries that could be used to make wind and solar

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<v Speaker 1>more reliable and less intermittent um. Is the funding that's

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<v Speaker 1>going to go towards nuclear fusion research, is it going

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<v Speaker 1>to come from other areas of clean energy research? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>that's an interesting question. I don't know for sure, but

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<v Speaker 1>my guests would be not so much. The people that

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<v Speaker 1>are putting money into fusion are making long term bets,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's a bit of a risk. It's a bit

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<v Speaker 1>of a gamble. We don't know if it's going to

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<v Speaker 1>work or how long it's going to take. The people

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<v Speaker 1>that are putting money into batteries. That's a much shorter play.

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<v Speaker 1>We see huge demand for batteries now. We can see

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<v Speaker 1>the bands of the batteries that exist now, and we see,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, plenty of interest in a new kind of battery,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's a lot of research going to new battery technologies.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you can come up with a better battery,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not as complicated a project as a nuclear fusion

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<v Speaker 1>power plant, and you pretty much have a guaranteed market.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah that makes sense. I mean, yeah, I guess I'm

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<v Speaker 1>thinking of renewable energy research. It's like a zero sum game,

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<v Speaker 1>and it sounds like that's just not the case. There's

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<v Speaker 1>room in the in the sandbox for everyone. I think

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<v Speaker 1>people are just investing in energy period, instead of just thinking, well,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the money I've got to allocate for renewable energy.

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<v Speaker 1>The global energy markets have been completely upended since the

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<v Speaker 1>war started almost a year ago, and there's just unlimited

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<v Speaker 1>interest in trying to find new ways to either get

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<v Speaker 1>more of the energy we have or new kinds of energy.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, Well, that was Will Wade talking about the future.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you Will for joining us. Uh, let's hope we

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<v Speaker 1>have more news here. In the future. Okay, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>it for today's Parts per Billion. If you want more

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<v Speaker 1>environmental news, check out our website news dot Bloomberg Law

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. That website, once again is news dot Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Law dot com. Today's episode of Parts from Bilion was

0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.880
<v Speaker 1>produced by myself, David Schultz. Partsber Billion was created by

0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Jessica Combs and Rachel Dagle and is edited by Zack

0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.839
<v Speaker 1>Sherwood and Renee Show and our executive producer is Josh Block.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks everyone for listening. Have you ever thought to yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>why are lawyers the way that they are? And how

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<v Speaker 1>much money do they really make? Anyway, these are the

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