1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 3: part two in our series Looking at shield Walls. Now. 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 3: In the last episode, we ended up focusing primarily on 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 3: one maybe unlikely, but a pretty interesting explanation of a 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 3: passage in a first century Chinese history that described a 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 3: group of soldiers information with shields overlapping like fish scales. 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 3: We ended up looking at a paper from many years 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: ago by an American scholar named Homer Dubs that tried 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 3: to connect that observation in the ancient Chinese history to 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 3: a fact from Roman history about a group of soldiers 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: that were sent somewhere east after being captured by the 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 3: Parthian Empire in battle. And we ended up coming down 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 3: with some major doubts about this particular theory, But it's 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 3: interesting because of the various facts that connects to, one 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 3: of which was simply that you could have a formation 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 3: of ancient Roman soldiers with their shields overlapping so that 20 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 3: they looked like fish scales. Now that's a kind of 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: striking image in itself. So I know, Rob that captured 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 3: your attention and made us want to come back and 23 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 3: talk about shield wall maneuvers more generally today. 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 2: That's right, And before we get into shield walls, I 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: thought it would be helpful to just talk about shields 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: for a minute acknowledge the underlying invention. So, as Brian 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: Fagan and Thomas Hewlett described in the Seventy Great Inventions 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: of the Ancient World, a book I've referred to on 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: the show many times, the shield likely predates human body armor, 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: and in fact, I'd say it seems to be a 31 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: little stronger than that. I think pretty much everybody agrees 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: that the first armor of any kind was the shield. 33 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 2: Body armor itself probably only goes back to the third 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: millennium BCE, but the first shields are just lost in 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: the shadows of prehistory. The use of shields likely emerged 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: from just the use of found objects or nature facts 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: defend off attacks. And of course we can easily imagine 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: how one would quickly realize that, oh, the simple club 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: that I can use offensively is also something I can 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: use defensively. What else could I do to this to 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: make an even better block? Right? 42 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: Just going from holding any object to fend off an 43 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: enemy attack, maybe any hard object, and turning that into 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: more dedicated designs, something that has a broader face, maybe 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 3: to face against the enemy, something that would have more 46 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: deflecting zone, and so forth exactly. 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: And it's thought that early hunters likely quickly learned that 48 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: you could stretch and she could stretch an animal hide 49 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: of some sort over a wooden frame or a wicker 50 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 2: frame in order to provide a wide, durable defensive block. 51 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: Now I did briefly glanced at Douglas j Emlin's Animal 52 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: Weapons on this topic. This is a great book that 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: gets into I brought this one up in the show 54 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: before as well, about the evolution of various offensive and 55 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: defensive features for organisms, and then comparing that to various 56 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: arms races in the development of different weapons systems among humans. 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: Emmlin doesn't have much to say about the shield specifically, 58 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: but in general compares the development of human body armor 59 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: to an interesting case that of the stickleback fish, with 60 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: marine species having more spines, more pronounced armor plating, and 61 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: then fresh water variations being like less spiky, less armored, 62 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: And the idea is that this kind of underlines his 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: general statement and that is that in general observation of 64 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: nature is that any kind of weapon is costly. You're 65 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: putting biological energy into the development of those that armor 66 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: or those weapons, and you're missing out on other things 67 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: because of it. And you know, it's it's like that 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: in actual warfare as well. I mean there are various 69 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: human complications as well, but generally, if something is no 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: longer useful, it will stop being used. And if there 71 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 2: is a need for something to keep up with some 72 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: sort of other advancement, well then that's where the development 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: is going to go. 74 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: Right, And that's something people it's easy to forget about 75 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 3: the costs of defenses, and that'll definitely play into some 76 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: things I think we're going to talk about in the 77 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: episode today that like you know, you might think, like, well, 78 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 3: why not just have a really really huge shield, you know, 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: like just takes a gigantic space so the enemy really 80 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 3: can't get to you at all. If you think about 81 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: it for a minute, that comes with all kinds of downsides. 82 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 3: It's getting heavier, it's harder for you to move around, 83 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: it makes it it reduces the amount of space that 84 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: you have access to and attacking and so forth. There 85 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 3: are downsides to defenses. They're not only upside. 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's ultimately a a whole host of like 87 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: known downsides like among the general public, and then downsides 88 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: we don't think about, and a lot likewise advantages run 89 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: the same way. And a lot of this is because 90 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: of what we see in movies. You know, even if 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: we're not actually setting down to watch some sort of 92 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: a sword and sandal epic to learn about ancient warfare, 93 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: we can't help but sort of absorb the image of that, 94 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: and then we carry that around even if we're like 95 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: I do this, I find myself doing this. I'm like 96 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: reading some sort of text about ancient warfare, and you know, 97 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: it's a really good text, very well cited, making very 98 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: rational arguments. But you know, I have seen movies like 99 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: three hundred, I've seen movies like Gladiator and Troy and 100 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: so forth, and you know those movies are going to 101 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: inherently have errors, and they're just part of like my 102 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: visual catalog of the time period. 103 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 3: They influence your view of what happened in history without 104 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: you even consenting to the fact that they're doing that. Well, 105 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: you didn't like set out to say I'm going to 106 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: learn what ancient combat was like by watching a movie. 107 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 3: It just kind of gets in there. You don't have 108 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 3: to try. 109 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: Now this idea of what if I just had a 110 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: big shield though, This is really interesting when we get 111 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: into the history of armor though, because we just pointed 112 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: out that the shield came first. Everything else followed. As 113 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: we've discussed in the show before, you had the invention 114 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: of the helmet, roughly twenty five hundred BCE being the 115 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: time when this becomes popular, and this largely emerges as 116 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: a counter to the devastating battlefield prowess of the mace, 117 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: and so soldiers of the ancient world did typically wear helmes, 118 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: but according to Fagan and Wholett, they typically wore no 119 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: additional body armor and depended on the use of a 120 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: large shield to cover them from head to foot, with 121 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: the frequent addition of a pair of greeves, they write 122 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: to protect the lower legs. But we'll have more to 123 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 2: say on that in a bit. So, yeah, this idea 124 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: you go back to the ancient world is like you 125 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: have a shield, you have a helmet, and you're essentially 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: good to go. No notes, and they had this would 127 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: remain standard for centuries upon centuries to follow and even 128 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: on up into the sixteenth century CE among the Aztecs 129 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: of the America's a big caveat here. There's going to 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: be a lot of variation in specific shields, but there 131 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: are some sweeping generalities that are in play. Basically, they 132 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: say it was a popular approach for various militaries at 133 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: various times, in part because a simple shield was far 134 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: easier to produce and mass produce compared to fitted body armor. 135 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: Yes, another really important economic consideration. The cost of making 136 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 3: something is not just the cost of the materials that 137 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: go into it. Something that can be you know, made 138 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 3: a thousand times the same way is generally going to 139 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: be easier to do than something you need to fit 140 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: to individual people. 141 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. Another really important thing about the shield, and this 142 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: is this is not going to come as a shock 143 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: to anyone who has even just ever had a character 144 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: pick up a shield in a role playing But if 145 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: whatever you're doing on the battlefield can be done one handed, 146 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: be it like a spear or a short sword versus 147 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: a two handed weapon or a bow, then a shield 148 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: adds a great deal of additional protection. And unlike in 149 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: your your RPG, you can't in real life you're you're 150 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 2: not gonna say, well, I could give my character a shield, 151 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: but would it look as cool as ultimately you know, 152 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 2: it may just be like one point of armor class, 153 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: two points of armor class, whatever the case may be 154 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: in your game, but in reality it can make a 155 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: obviously a huge difference. 156 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point. I would almost say note 157 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: for the creators of D and D like I. Then again, 158 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a military historian, so I don't 159 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 3: really know, but I would tend to think that you 160 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: should get more AC from your shield than you should 161 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 3: from your armor. 162 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I'm guilty of this too though. It's 163 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: like I'll be I'll just think, well, I don't know 164 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: if this character would have a shield that's not really there. 165 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: And you know the counter argument as well, it would be, well, 166 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: I guess getting pelted with arrows is your character's style. 167 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 3: Maybe it depends on the kind of armor, like you 168 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: get more AC from like plate armor, but yeah, people 169 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: get a lot of AC from just putting on hide 170 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: and stuff. 171 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it also in dungeons and dragons and stuff. 172 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 2: It also depends on sort of like what is your 173 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: visual iconography that you're leaning on to create your character 174 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 2: and so, and that might be actual historic iconography, or 175 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: more likely iconography from films and fantasy. Anyway, coming back 176 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: to the idea of the film and a big shield, 177 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: we do see just this arrangement depicted in ancient art. 178 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: An example that the authors here bring up is the 179 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: twenty five hundred BCE Vulture stela from Tello, which shows 180 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: the troops of Sumerian ruler Inannatum dressed in helmets, brandishing 181 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 2: spears and carrying large rectangular shields. The depiction, they also argue, 182 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 2: seems to provide us with a very early depiction of 183 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 2: a shield wall, so a collective formation of shields. However, 184 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: as we'll touch on in a bit, just because you 185 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: see shields position a certain way in art, even ancient art, 186 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that's necessarily exactly how it was arranged. But 187 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: we'll come back to that. They add that the exact 188 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: kind of shield used would depend largely on the roll 189 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: of the given infantry. So fast moving skirmishers are typically 190 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: going to depend on small shields. They could be used 191 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: with precision and without hindering your speed and maneuverability. Meanwhile, 192 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: you're plotting heavy infantry would often benefit from these big 193 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: rectangular shield designs that they could provide a great deal 194 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: of cover and could be lined up to present a 195 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: shield wall against attacks. A very late example of the former, though, 196 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: you can look to the clans of the Scottish Highlands 197 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: and the Highland Charge where they would would they would 198 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: drop their musket after firing it and then rush forward 199 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: with a with a small shield and a melee weapon. 200 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: It's like a shock attack, but that would be a 201 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: you know, prime example where you can benefit from the 202 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: protection of the small shield with but still being able 203 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: to maintain a great deal of mobility and speedy. Now, 204 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: one of the resources we turned to for this episode 205 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: is the excellent blog of doctor Bretz Devereaux, a collection 206 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: of Unmitigated Pedantry, which is a great blog if you're 207 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: interested in the history of warfare, especially if you're interested 208 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: in Roman warfare, but he gets into a lot of 209 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: medieval warfare as well, and frequently analyzes warfare that we 210 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: see depicted in the Lord of the Rings show, even 211 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: movies like Dune, and of course things like a Game 212 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: of Thrones or Rome or you know, the latest Gladiator movie, and. 213 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: So forthing those scenes with the historical lens talk exactly 214 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 3: what matches up to what we know about ancient warfare 215 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: and what does not exactly. 216 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, one particular post though, relates to what we're talking 217 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 2: about here today, and that's a twenty twenty three post 218 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: titled Collections shield Walls and Spacing, Hollywood Mobs and Ancient Tactics. 219 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: So we'll come back to some of his observations regarding 220 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: depictions of shield walls and modern media. But I bring 221 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: him up now because he makes the following observation about 222 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: shield sizes. Quote, Battlefield shields tend to vary within a 223 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 2: relatively narrow range of sizes and basically two major shape categories, 224 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: either round or oblong. So there's a lot of variety, 225 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 2: certainly as I already mentioned, but they tend to fit 226 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: into these two broad categories. Alongside the usage already sighted, 227 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 2: he also points out that there were never, so far 228 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: as he could tell, square shield. So if you see 229 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: a square shield, like a perfect square shield in art 230 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: or in some sort of TV show or movie, you 231 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: were right to be suspicious. 232 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 3: Right, So the real shields found in history are either 233 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 3: like a circular disc of varying size or something that 234 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 3: is fairly tall, basically sort of the shape that you 235 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 3: would imagine a person could hide their tall body behind. 236 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's either going to be like those 237 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: round sleds that you slid down a hill on, or 238 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: they're going to be like those the long sleds you 239 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: slide down a hill on, but you just don't see 240 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: square sleds. 241 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 4: That's a good point. 242 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: So Devro makes some really fine points about shield size 243 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: relative to the body of the soldier wielding. It that 244 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: these shields were on the whole big, generally larger than 245 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 2: we see in films and video games. The larger ones 246 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,479 Speaker 2: were broad enough to on their own block a significant 247 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 2: portion of the soldier's body, and even the smaller examples 248 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: could cover exceptionally well if you were turning your body, 249 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: turning your shoulder toward the enemy, making yourself as narrow 250 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: as possible behind the shield, which was typical. 251 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: Form right, and in fact, it almost seems that people 252 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: tend to distinctively know to do this if you know 253 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 3: you're in a dangerous situation, if you are think you're 254 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: about to get into a fight, whether armed or unarmed, 255 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: you tend to want to pivot your body so that 256 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: you become narrow so that your side faces your opponent 257 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: instead of your facing them head on. 258 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: Now, in looking at these different shield sizes, you know, 259 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: I can think about what's cool and what looks effective 260 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: for combatants, but I know when I see it, I'm like, 261 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: if it was actually me, I would say, give me 262 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: the biggest one you have with the most coverage possible, 263 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: you know, and it needs to be about the size 264 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: of a church door. But an interesting thing that Devreeu 265 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: points out as well is that most shields are going 266 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: to focus on protecting the head in the chest, and 267 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: even smaller shields are going to do this quite well. 268 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: And as far as lower parts of the body goes 269 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: like you know, lower legs, the feet and all. He 270 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: adds that in close combat, all strikes are going to 271 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: originate from shoulder height, and you know, certainly you could 272 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: aim at your opponent's feet in such combat, but it 273 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: would be tricky and it would expose you to counterattack. 274 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: So the defense is ultimately well placed here. Also, coming 275 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: back to body positioning, you're going to have your body 276 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: perpendicular to the combat. And on top of that, most 277 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: of the shields you're looking at are going to be 278 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: maneuverable to some degree or another. I mean they're all 279 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: maneuverable to a degree, but perhaps more so than a 280 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: novice might assume just looking at images. 281 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: Right, So, a shield is not like a static defense, 282 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: say of a particular part of your body, but it 283 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: is something you move around in reaction to the enemy 284 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 3: and to protect the parts of your body that need 285 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: to be protected depending on what you're about to do. 286 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: It makes me think about Captain America's shield. I haven't 287 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: watched enough Captain America recently, and maybe he's my least favorite, 288 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: so I don't notice what he's doing as much. But 289 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: he does throw the shield around, which does feel kind 290 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: of like someone thought, well, the shield isn't interesting enough, 291 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: Maybe he can throw it and it can be a weapon, 292 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: Like let's make it more active and less passive. But 293 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: in reality, like the shield is going to be a 294 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: rather active defensive bit of armor. Now, as far as 295 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: arrows go, Devereux points out that it's only short range 296 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: that you'd need to worry about concerning like your lower 297 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: legs and feet. Long range missiles are going to be 298 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: coming from above anyway, So again, imagine yourself holding that 299 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: shield up. You know, if it's positioned correctly towards the 300 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: incoming arrows, you're not going to have to worry as 301 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: much about your feet. So basically, shields can provide a 302 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: great deal of coverage for the individual fighter on their own. 303 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: But then in formation we get into the widely used 304 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: shield wall formations that you see in various militaries throughout 305 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: the ancient world and for centuries and centuries after that. 306 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: Now Devro goes into a great deal more detail about 307 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: all of this that we're not going to cover. That 308 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: post is a great deep dive, so I recommend checking 309 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: it out. But there are several key points that he 310 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: makes about shield walls, and points about how shield walls 311 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: are generally incorrectly depicted in video games, movies, and art. 312 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: And again this is kind of important because these are 313 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: the examples that end up coloring the way we think 314 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 2: about it. So I'm compressing many of his points here, 315 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: but essentially this one I found really entertaining and insightful. 316 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: Really tight formations of soldiers with shields and swords just 317 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: look cool. They look cool now, and they look cool 318 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 2: in Roman times, and as he points out, we actually 319 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 2: see Roman depictions all their own troops locked into tight 320 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: formations for seemingly this reason, like tighter formations depicted than 321 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: they would have actually had on the field. 322 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 3: That's right. So he's making the point that when you 323 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: see a movie scene today where armed infantry with say 324 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 3: spears and shields or swords and shields, are going into 325 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: battle and you see them with the shields all lined 326 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 3: up side to side, touching, you know, so that you 327 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: couldn't even get in between the shields. They're making a 328 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 3: literal wall of the shields or even overlapping. That that 329 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 3: was not actually a common battle tactic in many ancient armies. 330 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 3: You would have different kinds of formations, and sometimes for 331 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 3: various reasons, soldiers would close up into tighter ranks and 332 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: hold their shields out. And we'll talk about some reasons 333 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 3: for that as we go on, but they're not often 334 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 3: in reality as tight as we see in fictional media. 335 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 3: There's more space in between them for good reasons. 336 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, But I guess part of it is like the 337 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 2: idea that it gets across, like, look how tight these 338 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: soldiers are, like they are a single unit. They're like 339 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 2: a single mass, you know. We like the idea of that. 340 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 2: Another example he brings up is that early modern gunpowder 341 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: tactics eventually became quite tight in their format to maximize 342 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: fire over frontage. Uh and and this and this also 343 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: did not depend on combat maneuverability. You weren't having to 344 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 2: swing the you know, like your your rifle around. But 345 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 2: this tight image of formations then is used to imagine 346 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: formations for historic soldiers who were swinging around weapons or 347 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: using big spears or something. So that that's I think 348 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: that's a great point as well, the way we take 349 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: modern or at least more recent examples and then use those, 350 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 2: perhaps even subconsciously to imagine the past, which you know, 351 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: this is a big tool that we use in imagining 352 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 2: the past in general, like start with what you know 353 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: and then and then imagine like ancient people doing that. 354 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: But you know, it doesn't apply, you know, one to 355 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: one for every situation. Another point that he brought up 356 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: that I really liked was that, you know, in in 357 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: various screen depictions especially, we see more unrealistic depictions of 358 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: shield walls. And that is because fiction's off and revolve 359 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: around some sort of novel and exciting solution to a 360 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: tactical problem, when in reality, quote, like most tactics, shield 361 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: walls are effective but not particularly clever. 362 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: Right in reality, the so called shield wall is not. 363 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 3: It's not a trick. There's nothing especially clever or counterintuitive 364 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 3: about it. It's like lining up your infantry, your heavy infantry, 365 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 3: in a formation where it would be hard to get 366 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 3: through them. 367 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I was watching an episode of The Studio, 368 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: which is a comedy about the movie industry. Has nothing 369 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: to do with shield walls, but there's a part in 370 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: one of the episodes where they're saying, look, they're telling 371 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: this young promising director, we're not going to tell you 372 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: how to make your movie, but we have a formula 373 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: that absolutely works and makes money, and we'd like you 374 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: to keep that in mind. It's basically what's going on here. 375 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: This is not the exciting ideas make for on the battlefield, 376 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: make for great stories, but at the end of the day, 377 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: there's a formula that works, and nearly those generals are 378 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 2: going to stick to it as much as possible. 379 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 3: Okay, so what were most real shield wall infantry formations 380 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 3: like and why were they like that? 381 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: Well, devro gets into more detail, but basically like, you're 382 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 2: just gonna have more space because I mean, this is 383 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: the big one. You need space to move around and 384 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: wield your weapon and wield the shield, because remember what 385 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 2: we were talking about, the shield is a more active 386 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: defense than it may seem in like a still photograph 387 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: or in some of these movies. You know, shields were 388 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: mobile and permittive fair amount of coverage when utilized properly. 389 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: Shields were also large again and could cover an individual 390 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: quite well, even against incoming arrows which he drives home. 391 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: Were not as plentiful and rapid fire as films make 392 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: it seem, so troops could and did advance against incoming 393 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 2: arrows like arrows, like it's not just you know suddenly 394 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: that it's raining arrows and the troops just can't move 395 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 2: for five minutes. 396 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 3: Our arrows will blot out the sun. That's hard to 397 00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: do in real life. 398 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then something will definitely come back to in 399 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: a bit. Super Tight formations tended to just in general 400 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 2: make troops slower and less effective at fighting, which kind 401 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: of comes back to what we're saying. You just they 402 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: need space to do what they need to do. 403 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 3: Right, So you can imagine a formation that is still 404 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: in effect a wall of soldiers with shields, so it 405 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 3: is a shield wall, but that doesn't necessarily mean that 406 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: the shields are touching edge to edge or even overlapping. 407 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 3: There would be some reasonable space, probably a few feet 408 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 3: in between them in most of these formations where you'd 409 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 3: be expecting a soldier to fight. 410 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 2: Yes, so again, many ancient armies made use of the 411 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 2: shield wall as well as rectangular formations of troops the PHAILANX, 412 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 2: and it's one of those tactics that likely developed independently 413 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: more than once. There's a lot of variation and certainly 414 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: different terminology, but suffice to say that it all generally 415 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 2: came down down to how as a unit, these soldiers 416 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 2: could stick together, cover adjacent troops with their shields, and 417 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: keep the front line offensive against the opposing forces front line. 418 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: And all of this was the domain of domain of 419 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: trained soldiers. So Devro warns that it's easy to air. 420 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: On either side of this realization, you'll you'll either assume 421 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: that the troops were inexperienced and untrained, or that they 422 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: were robots or just superhumanly trained, you know, professional soldiers 423 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 2: who just could not air and you know, and would 424 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: not break. 425 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: One of the points he makes that I think is 426 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 3: pretty interesting is that we have this intuition that if 427 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: we wanted a line of soldiers to be really impenetrable, 428 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 3: you would have you would want to like have their 429 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: their shields touching each other so that it forms actually 430 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: like an unbroken physical barrier of matter. The shields are 431 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 3: all right there next to each other, but that just 432 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 3: the threat of a soldier paying attention to the space 433 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 3: in between the shields is in reality a barrier that 434 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: you can't really get through because it is a threat barrier. 435 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 3: It's not that the shields are physically touching all the 436 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 3: way down the line, but you can't just like rush 437 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 3: into that space because you know if you rush into 438 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: that space, you will almost certainly get get hit with 439 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 3: a spear or a sword. 440 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: It's almost like taking the game, the childhood game of 441 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: Red Rover, where you actually join arms if I'm remembering correctly, 442 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: to try and keep the other children from running through 443 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: your line. Like there's that mentality. But obviously, in say 444 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: professional American football, nobody's locking arms as part of a 445 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 2: defensive line or anything. Like. They're mobile, they can move 446 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: and if they're spaced appropriately in the right position, like 447 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: they can stop somebody trying to run past. 448 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 3: Them, right, So Yeah, that's a good comparison because I 449 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 3: don't play football, But the way I assume it works 450 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 3: is like you're also trying to notice where the person 451 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 3: blocking you on the other team is looking, and if 452 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 3: they're paying attention to where you're about to go, that's 453 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 3: going to probably deter you because you know that they're 454 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 3: going to come to meet you there if you go 455 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: that way. 456 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: Why don't they let them wear shields though they have helmets, 457 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: they have body armor, but no shields, no Spearit is 458 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: either all right. I think it's time for us to 459 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: finally come back though to the Roman testudo again, not 460 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: the default mode of Roman shield formations, but one that 461 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: could form in certain circumstances, and one that has, I 462 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: think for many people become like just the icon of 463 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: a tight shield wall and also one that just resonates 464 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: with us on multiple levels. 465 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 3: That's right, And this is the formation actually that Homer 466 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 3: Dubbs talks about in the paper that we discussed in 467 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: the last episode. So just to refresh, Homer Dubs, twentieth 468 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 3: century American scholar, famously argued that a group of Roman 469 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 3: soldiers captured by the Parthian Empire after the Battle of Kari, 470 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: which is today would be in southeastern Turkey in fifty 471 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 3: three BCE. He says that they made their way east 472 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 3: into Asia and fought in in a battle against the 473 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: army of the Han Chinese Empire in the thirties BCE, 474 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 3: and then eventually that's the survivors same group of Roman 475 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: soldiers settled in a region of northern China and became 476 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 3: the ancestors of a group of people called the le Chien. Now, 477 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 3: in the previous episode, we raised a number of reasons 478 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 3: for doubting this hypothesis, with different levels of doubt for 479 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 3: the different parts of it, particularly doubting the Roman ancestry 480 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 3: of the le Chien people at large, which was I 481 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 3: would say pretty thoroughly discredited by y chromosome genetic analysis 482 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: published by Joe at All in two thousand and seven 483 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: in the Journal of Human Genetics. We also raised doubts 484 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 3: about the role of Romans in the historic battle between 485 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 3: the Hun warlord Chicchi and the Chinese army. There's less 486 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 3: direct evidence against this, but we just noted that it's 487 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 3: an interesting idea. But many scholars with the relevant historical 488 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 3: specializations have disagreed with dubs and we observed personally from 489 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 3: reading his paper that it just rests on a lot 490 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: of speculative assumptions. He's making a lot of jumps and 491 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 3: is it's dubious the amount of certainty he seems to 492 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: have when he gets to the conclusion. It's more I 493 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 3: would rank it more like kind of an interesting possibility. Yeah, 494 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 3: this is kind of a side note, but I've mentioned 495 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: this on the show before. It's the kind of idea 496 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 3: that I think benefits from what I would call esthetic epistemology, 497 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 3: the kind of thing that people want to believe is 498 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 3: true because it's cool to think about. And you know, 499 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 3: I think the age we live in and the podcasting 500 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: medium in particular, really have a weakness for esthetic epistemology. 501 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: I don't know why it is. Podcasts, but it seems 502 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,959 Speaker 3: to me podcasts today are a place where it is 503 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 3: so easy to leverage interest into factuality. And there are 504 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 3: some big shows out there that make this, I would say, 505 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: almost their entire project. It's just something something, it's a 506 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 3: really cool idea. It kind of changes everything you know 507 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 3: about history or it's like whoa, you never would have 508 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: thought this could have happened, But that's crazy to imagine. 509 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 3: And so it just starts to be like, well, then 510 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: it is true, and if you doubt it, you've got 511 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 3: your covering it up. You're trying to hide something. It's 512 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 3: just something I think podcasters and podcast listeners should be 513 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 3: aware of. 514 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we have to be aware of it 515 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: as well. You know, I'll get excited about an idea 516 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 2: and then you know, maybe I'll learn a little bit 517 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 2: more about it and I'll have to, you know, realize, well, 518 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: we got to couch this in the appropriate knowledge, in 519 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 2: the appropriate analysis. 520 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. Same here. It affects me too, But we're doing 521 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 3: our best, folks. We try to bring you things that 522 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 3: are interesting, but also be real about. 523 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 4: What we can know and what is likely based on 524 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 4: our knowledge. 525 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: But anyway, so coming back to Dubb's paper itself, the 526 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: original reason he suggests that it was a group of 527 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: Roman soldiers that were the people described fighting in this 528 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 3: battle against the Western Chinese army. The reason he says 529 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 3: they're Roman soldiers is a line in a Chinese history 530 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 3: composed mostly in the first century called the History of 531 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 3: the Former Han Dynasty or sometimes just the Book of Han, 532 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 3: and it's a passage describing the battlefield in this battle 533 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 3: based on a painting made by someone who is there, 534 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 3: and it mentions a troop formation defending the city. As quote, 535 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 3: more than one hundred foot soldiers lined up in a 536 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: fish scale formation, and Dubbs takes this to mean that 537 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 3: the soldiers were holding shields in their hands and that 538 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 3: the shields were overlapping one another and covering the men 539 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 3: all around, like the scales overlapping on the skin of 540 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 3: a fish and covering the fish. Now, for a number 541 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: of reasons, Dubbs argues that this description really could only 542 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: refer to Roman legionaries holding a particular type of center 543 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 3: grip shield called a scutum or plural scuta, and performing 544 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 3: a maneuver called a testudo. Now, whether or not Dubbs 545 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 3: was correct about the battle, it's again, I think it's 546 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 3: not impossible. Interesting idea, but there are a lot of 547 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: causes for doubt. It is worth taking a look at 548 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 3: what the testudo was and what we know about it. 549 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 3: Testudo is a Latin word that means tortoise, and if 550 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 3: we look at some passages in ancient Roman texts, we 551 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: can see a bit about what it was and how 552 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 3: it was used. For example, I picked up a few 553 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 3: references to the Testudo in Julius Caesar's commentaries on the 554 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 3: Gallic War. This is a text that Julius Caesar wrote 555 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 3: himself about his first hand experience of military conquest and 556 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 3: suppression of uprisings in the region of Gaul. That's a 557 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 3: lot of modern day France basically. And yes, he did 558 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: write this himself about his own experiences, and yes he 559 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,239 Speaker 3: does refer to himself in the third person, so it's 560 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 3: quite funny. So the first passage I was going to mention. 561 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 3: And by the way, this is the English version translated 562 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 3: by McDevitt and Bond. 563 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 4: This is in. 564 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 3: Book two, chapter six. Caesar says, quote the Galls mode 565 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 3: of besieging is the same as that of the Belgai, 566 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 3: when after having drawn a large number of men around 567 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 3: the whole of the fortifications, stones have begun to be 568 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: cast against the wall on all sides, and the wall 569 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 3: has been stripped of its defenders. Then, forming a testudo, 570 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: they advanced to the gates and undermine the wall, which 571 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 3: was easily effected on this occasion, for while so large 572 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: a number were casting stones and darts, no one was 573 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 3: able to maintain his position upon the wall. So this 574 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: is describing the galls attack on the wall of a 575 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 3: fortified position. They gather around the walls. They're throwing stones. 576 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: I guess you have to imagine missiles are probably going 577 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 3: both directions, and mainly they're throwing stones to get the 578 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 3: defenders away from the edge of the walls. And then quote, 579 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 3: forming a testudo, they advance to the gates and undermine 580 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 3: the wall. So the testudo is something they assemble into 581 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 3: when approaching the gates of a fortress or a walled town. 582 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 3: There's another passage in book five, chapter nine. Caesar is 583 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 3: describing leading a detachment of Roman soldiers to meet the 584 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: enemy in a position I think in a forest, and 585 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 3: referring to the enemy, he says, quote, they advancing to 586 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 3: the river with their cavalry and chariots from the higher ground, 587 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 3: began to annoy our men and give battle. Being repulsed 588 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,239 Speaker 3: by our cavalry, they concealed themselves in woods, as they 589 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: had secured a place admirably fortified by nature and by art, which, 590 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: as it seemed they had before prepared on account of 591 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 3: a civil war, for all entrances to it were shut 592 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 3: up by a great number of felled trees. Okay, so 593 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 3: that's the setup. The enemy has retreated fortified position in 594 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 3: the woods, then Caesar says, they themselves rushed out of 595 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 3: the woods to fight here and there, and prevented our 596 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 3: men from entering their fortifications. But the soldiers of the 597 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 3: seventh Legion, having formed a testudo and thrown up a 598 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 3: rampart against the fortification, took the place and drove them 599 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 3: out of the woods, receiving only a few wounds. Okay, 600 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 3: So once again the testudo, this time created by the 601 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 3: Roman soldiers of the seventh Legion. It's described as a 602 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 3: formation useful for approaching and eventually overtaking a fortified enemy position. Now, 603 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 3: in both of these cases, Caesar does not bother to 604 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 3: explain the testudo. He doesn't say what it is. He 605 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 3: just assumes the reader will already know. So what exactly 606 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 3: is being described here, Well, we'll get a more complete 607 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 3: description in Plutarch's Life of Antony, which comes in the 608 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 3: middle of a description of a Roman campaign against the 609 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 3: Parthian Empire. That of Antony, not Crassus this time, and 610 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 3: this is a version of this section translated by John Dryden. 611 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 3: At the descend of a hill where the Romans were 612 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 3: obliged to pass, They got together and let fly their 613 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 3: arrows upon them as they moved slowly down. But the 614 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 3: full armed infantry facing round received the light troops within, 615 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 3: and those in the first rank knelt on one knee 616 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 3: holding their shields before them, the next rank holding theirs 617 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 3: over the first, and so again others over these, much 618 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 3: like the tiling of a house or the row of 619 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 3: seats in a theater, the whole affording sure defense against 620 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 3: arrows which glanced upon them without doing any harm. So 621 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 3: here's the testudo formation. It is like a tortoise pulling 622 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 3: its head and legs inside its shell. Soldiers in a 623 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 3: testudo formation close in tight with one another, so the 624 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 3: men in the front row present a wall of shields 625 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 3: held side to side or overlapping like roof tiles, facing 626 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 3: the o enemy. And sometimes shield walls would also be 627 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 3: formed on other sides of the formation, depending on need 628 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 3: I guess, depending on where the enemy was facing. And 629 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 3: then the men behind the first row would put their 630 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 3: shields up on top of the formation and then layered, 631 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 3: going row by row all the way back to create 632 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 3: a protective roof. So it's like you if entered the 633 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 3: tortoise's shell. 634 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 2: You have. 635 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 3: You are protected all around, or at least on whatever 636 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 3: sides are facing the danger. 637 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've kind of made like a tiny fortress, a 638 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,959 Speaker 2: tiny house out of your shields. There. 639 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 3: Now, you might ask, if you can create this nearly 640 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 3: impenetrable dome of protection all around, why wouldn't soldiers just 641 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 3: always move in the testudo? Right, Plutarch says that the 642 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 3: arrows glanced off them without doing any harm. Why isn't 643 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 3: this just what all pre modern soldiers did all the time. 644 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 3: The answer is the testudo might be very safe, but 645 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 3: it is not very good for most things you would 646 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 3: want infantry troops to do. So, first of all, it's 647 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 3: slow to move. It's like, for one thing, maintaining that 648 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 3: barrier is going to be actually kind of difficult to do. 649 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 3: And the troops are going to be bunched very close together. 650 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 3: So the formation can move, You can march this way, 651 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 3: but it can't move very fast, and it's not going 652 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 3: to be very maneuverable, Like moving around things or changing 653 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 3: directions is just going to be difficult. You can also 654 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 3: imagine that for most soldiers within this formation, visibility is 655 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 3: going to be greatly reduced. You can't really get a 656 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 3: very good idea of what's going on around you. If 657 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 3: you're at one of the edges, maybe you can peek out, 658 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 3: but even then you're probably gonna have limited visibility in 659 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 3: the other directions, you know, not the side you're facing 660 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 3: anything except the side you're facing toward. So yeah, that's 661 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 3: going to be a problem as well. Also, soldiers can't 662 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 3: fight in this formation. Armed infantry are not only supposed 663 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 3: to move around and avoid getting killed, they need to 664 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 3: be able to age with the enemy and either drive 665 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 3: them back or kill or wound them. And in fact, 666 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 3: we see examples in the ridings of Cassiustillo of Roman 667 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 3: soldiers in the testudo formation actually not doing very well 668 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 3: because they're being savaged by heavy party and cavalry charges. 669 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: So they form a testudo and then the armored horses 670 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 3: rush on them and they're overtaken, and it apparently just 671 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: you know, crashes through the shields, and you know, many 672 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 3: men are killed, are killed or wounded. So, despite what 673 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 3: you're going to see in a lot of movies with 674 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 3: medieval combat where you see something like the testudo often used, 675 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 3: at least the one row of shields, you know, all 676 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 3: lined up like a wall. It was not very useful 677 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 3: in situations of melee contact with the enemy. So what 678 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 3: was it actually good for. It seems that the testudo 679 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 3: was an ideal formation if you wanted to protect infantry 680 00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 3: from a heavy barrage of missiles, from arrows, javelin, even 681 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 3: thrown stones. And this is why you often see it 682 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 3: being used for attacking maneuvers during sieges or in approaching 683 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 3: fortified positions. So there are defenders up on the city 684 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 3: wall and they're shooting arrows or throwing stones, and you 685 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 3: want to approach the wall or the gate to attack 686 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 3: it or to undermine it. The testudo formation is useful 687 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 3: because it allows you to close that distance with minimal 688 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 3: casualties from airborne missiles along the way. That's something that 689 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 3: it is very good for. 690 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, this, you know, I'm going to make another 691 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: sports comparison here, which is rare for me, and in 692 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: doing so, I make it the sports terminology and correct. 693 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 2: But I kept thinking of of the testudo is being 694 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 2: kind of like a granny shot in basketball, something that 695 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: I'm to understand, even in professional basketball can be very effective, 696 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 2: but only in certain circumstance. Answers like there's a strong 697 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: case to be made that what was it the free throw? 698 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: Is that what you call it, that that someone can 699 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: make baskets with better regularity and control if they're using 700 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 2: a granny shot, like you know, between the legs, underhanded 701 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 2: as opposed to the more cool looking and and I think, 702 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 2: you know, largely more effective in other areas of the game, 703 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: you know, overhanded pitch of the basketball. So it's kind 704 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 2: of like that, like if you the testudo is going 705 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 2: to be highly effective in very certain circumstances, and if 706 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 2: you tried to use it outside of those circumstances, or 707 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 2: those circumstances were compromised, then it might spell disaster, I 708 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 2: would say. The The other thing about the testudo, like 709 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 2: the granny shot, is that it does look kind of stupid. 710 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: And I think I think this is worth acknowledging. Like 711 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 2: the testudo looks, Yes, it does look really cool. It 712 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 2: is really neat. It is kind of this idea of 713 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 2: perfect you know combat in defense in UNI and by 714 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 2: trained soldiers, and we love that aspect of it, but 715 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 2: it also just looks weird and kind of dumb, you know, 716 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: like they're they're becoming a turtle. They're making a little 717 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 2: house on the battlefield. And at the same time, it's 718 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 2: amazing people becoming a shape individual shields becoming an enclosure. 719 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 2: So I find myself entertaining both of these feelings anytime 720 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 2: I look at like an illustration of the testudo, or 721 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 2: I found a video online where some class somewhere had 722 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 2: had managed to get children to form one with like 723 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 2: plastic shields and swords while the I assume the teachers 724 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: pelted them with things, and then they successfully advanced on 725 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 2: the teachers and then mastered them. Now one more observation 726 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,879 Speaker 2: that Devereaux makes about shield walls, studos and how they're 727 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 2: depicted in modern entertainment. He pointed out something that I've 728 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 2: seen at least one of the shows that he's he's 729 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: referencing here, but I just it did not occur to me. 730 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 2: He said, if you watch Game of Thrones, there are 731 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,439 Speaker 2: episodes where you see the Lanister troops engaging some sort 732 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 2: of system where on the front line you have dedicated shieldmen, 733 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 2: so guys who have no weapons, just a two handed 734 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 2: shield of some sort, and then behind them there are 735 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 2: people with a with a like a pike, a two 736 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 2: handed pike, and then behind them you have people with bows, 737 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 2: And he points out that this idea of having like 738 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: a dedicated shield bearer and a dedicated spear bearer, you 739 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 2: just don't see this like it just it might look 740 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 2: cool in a film like this, but it's almost always 741 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 2: it's always going to be like a shield and spear 742 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 2: bearer or shields and swords. And a big part of 743 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 2: this is that otherwise, like your shield guy gets taken out, 744 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 2: the guy behind him doesn't have a shield, he just 745 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 2: has a pike. That means that defense on that line 746 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 2: has just completely fallen apart. Like one of the strengths 747 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,879 Speaker 2: of a shield wall or the testudo is that any 748 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 2: individual in the formation could step up and replace somebody 749 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 2: who's injured or killed. 750 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 3: Right, So you'll have a file within the formation that's 751 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 3: like lined up behind all of the soldiers in the 752 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 3: first row. Yeah, and if someone is killed or wounded 753 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 3: or asked to fall back or whatever, the file advances 754 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 3: up behind them. 755 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's a great point. It's something I'd never 756 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 2: noticed before in fantasy warfare. Perhaps there are other examples 757 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 2: of it out there, I know that. On his blog 758 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 2: in general, you can read lots of comments about details 759 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 2: and historic and semi historic television and television shows and films, 760 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 2: as well as of course fantasy and sci fi as well. 761 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 2: So of course the use of shield walls and fish 762 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 2: scale like formations fell in and out of fashion on 763 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 2: through to the Middle Ages and ultimately became obsolete in 764 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 2: the age of gunpowder. But it is often pointed out 765 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 2: that you do still see some version of these tactics 766 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 2: used with say, riot police, who are contending generally not 767 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 2: with firearms, but with improvised projectiles and simple hand to 768 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 2: hand weapons that may be improvised as well. So you 769 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 2: can look up various images of this online. You know, 770 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 2: some sort of like big kind of plasticy looking shield, 771 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 2: like a riot shield, and then you know, they'll often 772 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 2: form some sort of a wall, and sometimes they will 773 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 2: also form the roof over the heads of the soldiers. 774 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 2: Not as the examples tend not. They don't look as 775 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 2: regimented as a proper testudo, but it is kind of 776 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 2: like the spirit off it's still still useful in very 777 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 2: certain stripped down circumstances in our modern world. Likewise, you 778 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 2: also see examples of protesters using the shield walls of 779 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 2: one sort or another another as well. Yeah, but no 780 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 2: football players again for some reason, no shields on the 781 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 2: American football field, or the British football field for that matter. 782 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 2: No shields there. All right, Well, we're going to go 783 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 2: and close out these episodes here. I hope that everyone 784 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 2: has enjoyed our detour into the world of shields and 785 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 2: shield walls. But we're going to be back with something 786 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 2: else next week. In the meantime, Yeah, we invite you 787 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,280 Speaker 2: to write in if you have thoughts about this, especially 788 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 2: some of the various media that we've mentioned. You know 789 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,840 Speaker 2: how this stuff plays out on TV, in films, in 790 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 2: video games. Devereux frequently cites Total War as being a 791 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 2: franchise that often influences the way we picture things like this, 792 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 2: So write in. All that is fair game, just a 793 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 2: reminder of the stuff to blow your mind. Is primarily 794 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays 795 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 2: and Thursdays and on Fridays. We set aside most serious 796 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 2: concerns to talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 797 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 3: Huge things, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 798 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 799 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 800 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello. 801 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 3: You can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your 802 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:16,879 Speaker 3: dot com. 803 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 804 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 805 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.