1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And today's 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: subject is a little bit of art history. It's not 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: a little bit, it's quite a bit of art history. 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: But also it ties into abolitionist history. It's also an 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: interesting study of identity and like public presentation, UH, and 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: it also touches on a particularly long and circuitous path 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: that a specific piece of art can sometimes go on 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: before finding its way to the safety of a museum collection. 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: So we're talking today about UH sculptor Edmonia Lewis. Typically, 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: when we're talking about a person as the subject of 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: a podcast, we start with the early life, with their 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: birth and what we know about their parents. And this 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: is one of those cases where it's tricky to do 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: that because Edmonia spoke very little about her childhood it 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: and even gave some varying and inconsistent information about her 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: childhood throughout her life. Yeah, this is one of those 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: cases where the subject kind of blurred the picture a 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: little bit themselves, and we'll talk about why she might 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: have done that later on in the episode, but estimates 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: put her birth most likely sometime in eighteen forty three 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: eighteen eighteen forty five UH in upstate New York or 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: possibly Ohio. I've also seen it suggested that it could 25 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: even have been New Jersey uh And. She was born 26 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: as Mary ed Monia Lewis and her father was from 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: the Caribbean and her mother was part of Jibway and 28 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: after her parents died when she was still very young 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: she was possibly not even five years old at the time, 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: it was her mother's family that raised her. The tribe 31 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,279 Speaker 1: that her mother had been part of was nomadic, and Lewis, 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: who went by the name Wildfire when she was among 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: her Native American ken, lived that life until the age 34 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: of twelve. She also had an older brother named sam Rule, 35 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: who was also known as Sunrise, and her brother was 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: more than a decade older than she was. In the 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: eighteen forties, he left his relatives in the eastern United 38 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: States to pursue gold mining in California, who's reasonably successful 39 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: at it, and it was because of her brother's success 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: that Wildfire left the nomadic life of her tribal family 41 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: to attend school. Samuel actually paid for her to attend 42 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: a school in New York, and eventually, in eighteen fifty nine, 43 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Edmonia enrolled at the Young Ladies Preparatory department of Oberlin 44 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: College in Oberlin, Ohio, and this was also paid for 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: by her older brother. And it was during this time 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: that she dropped using the name Wildfire completely and switched 47 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: entirely to Edmonia. She also kind of abandoned her first 48 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: name Mary. This is a significant point in her life 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: as the abolitionist movement was very active at Oberlin and 50 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: it really impacted her as a young student. But two 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: other important things also happened to Edmonia during her colloge education, 52 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: both good and bad. One was that she developed into 53 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: a skilled sketch artist, and the other is that she 54 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: was accused of poisoning two other young women at the 55 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: college who were her roommates with Spanish Fly. According to 56 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: her accusers, Edmonia served the two of them mulled wine 57 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: before they went out for a sleigh ride with two 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: young men, and while the young women were out on 59 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: their date, both of them became violently ill. This accusation 60 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: caused an immediate rift in the culture of Oberlin. The 61 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: school was dedicated to progressive causes and social justice, and 62 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: prided itself on admitting African Americans and women since the 63 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties. The two girls ed Monia had allegedly poisoned 64 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: were white, and a white vigilante mob forms to punish Louis, 65 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: they seized her and beat her, and then left her 66 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: for debt in a field. When she appeared in court 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: weeks later, she had a shattered collar bone and needed 68 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: crutches to walk. Her attackers were never brought to justice. 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: Edmonious lawyer John Mercer Langston, who went on to great 70 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: fame himself, had argued that her roommates stomach contents were 71 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: never tested for poison, so that the entire accusation was 72 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: really hearsay and she was acquitted, But it was not 73 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: the end of her troubles at the school. Her reputation 74 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: was really deeply damaged by scandal. Uh there I read 75 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: some accounts that suggested that basically she couldn't walk anywhere 76 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 1: without people whispering about her, which I can only imagine 77 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: had to be terribly demoralizing. And she was later accused 78 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: of stealing art materials, and she wasn't allowed to register 79 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: for her final term or graduate as a consequence, and 80 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: those charges were dropped again for lack of evidence, but 81 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: she still was not allowed to complete her degree. This 82 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: really reminds me of our episode on Molly Spotted Elk, Yeah, 83 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: the performer, and how when she was working at a 84 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: camp where the girls she was working with really loved her, 85 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: but and then she had all of these accu zations 86 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: as the only Indigenous person working at the camp that 87 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: seemed like, we're probably false and made against her, not 88 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: for any real evidence. It's very very parallel. So through 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: the financial assistance of her brother once more, she moved 90 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: to Boston, Massachusetts, and while Oberlin had exposed her to 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: her art potential and to the abolitionist movement, Boston really 92 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: built on that exposure with a lot of new connections. 93 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: She met abolitionist and journalist William Lloyd Garrison and the 94 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: two became close friends. She also met sculptor Edward A. 95 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: Brackett via an introduction that Garrison made between the two 96 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, So, just as a little bit of 97 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: context on those two men. William Lloyd Garrison was the 98 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: publisher of the Liberator, which was an anti slavery paper 99 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: that ran from eighteen thirty one until the end of 100 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: the Civil War in eighteen sixty five. And Edward Augustus Brackett, 101 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: who he had introduced in Monia too, was a self 102 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: taught sculptor, very well known for busts and dramatic concepts, 103 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: including uh a marble piece that he carved depicting a 104 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: drowned woman and her baby. He also served in the 105 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: Civil War, but then in the eighteen seventies he left 106 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: behind his career in art to head up the Massachusetts 107 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: Fish and Game Commission. So also very fascinating men in 108 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: and of themselves that could be podcast subjects in the future. 109 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: Through her friendship with Brackett and Monia began to sculpt. 110 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: He served as a teacher and a mentor to her. 111 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: In this new medium. She started creating clay and plaster 112 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: medallions representing abolitionist leaders including William Lloyd Garrison, Charles Sumner, 113 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: Wendell Phillips, and John Brown, and she earned both acclaim 114 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: and some commercial benefit for her work in the early 115 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: eighteen sixties. Yes, she is one of those cases where 116 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: she really was able to make a living for herself 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: with her art, and her rapid rise to fame came 118 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: from a piece that she did in eighteen sixty four, 119 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: which was a bust of Colonel Robert Shaw. So the colonel, 120 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: in case you did not recognize that name, was the 121 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: white Union soldier who led the fifty fourth Massachusetts that 122 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: was the first all black regiment in the Northeast and 123 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: one of the first all black regiments in the war. 124 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: He also led a wage boycott to protest the lesser 125 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: pay that black soldiers received compared to white soldiers. Uh 126 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: and Shaw died in battle at Fort Wagner in July 127 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: of eighteen sixty three, and so he kind of had 128 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: this very heroic image. So this bust was incredibly popular. 129 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: Lewis made so much money selling copies of it that 130 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: she was able to pay her way to travel to Europe. 131 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: She toured multiple cities, including London, Paris, and Florence, but 132 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: though it seemed briefly that Florence would be her new 133 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: home in Europe, she wound up settling in Rome, and 134 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty five she rented a studio there adjacent 135 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: to the Piazza Barberini. And Rome was a fairly natural 136 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: choice at the time. It was a haven for a 137 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: number of artists ex pats Uh, and it was a 138 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: particularly attractive location for sculptors to set up studios because 139 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: of the ready availability of white marble. Additionally, there was 140 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: an abundance of skilled stone cutters in Rome who could 141 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: take an artist plaster or wax model and copy that 142 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: work into marble. And as a sculptor studying the neo 143 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: classical style that was popular among the city's other sculptors 144 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: at the time, they really expanded and refined Louis's skills. 145 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: But though she had access to skilled laborers to assist 146 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: in her work, she really didn't engage many. There are 147 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: a couple of theories as to why she opted to 148 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: go the more difficult route in creating marble pieces. For one, 149 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: she didn't have a lot of extra money to pay 150 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: for other people's work. But for another, she was concerned 151 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: about debate about the purity of a work that had 152 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: been copied onto marble by other workers who weren't the artist. 153 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: One of her friends had already faced criticism that her 154 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: work was really the artistry of Rome's workmen rather than 155 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: her own artistic work. And in Monia really quickly picked 156 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: up Italian and she settled into Roman culture. And she 157 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: also made some very close friends, one of which we 158 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: just mentioned were both American women who were also living 159 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: in the city. One was sculptor Harriet Hosmer, who was 160 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: the person that had faced that criticism that her work 161 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: was not her own, and the other was actress Charlotte Cushman. 162 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: And the three women were part of a larger group 163 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: of women artists in Italy at the time that Henry 164 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: James once described as quote that strange sisterhood of American 165 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: lady sculptors who at one time settled upon the Seven 166 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: Hills of Rome in a white Marmorian flock. We'll talk 167 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: about some of the work that Edmonia Lewis created while 168 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: living in Rome next, but before we do, we will pause. 169 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: We're a word from one of our sponsors. As Lewis 170 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: continued to create in her new home in Europe, her 171 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: art reflected themes of her deeply held religious beliefs, as 172 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: well as references to the lives of African Americans, though 173 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: it was certainly not confined exclusively to those subjects. This 174 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: was a period of great productivity for Lewis, although unfortunate 175 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: only many of her works have not survived and they 176 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: are lost forever but after she had moved to Rome, 177 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: she also traveled back and forth to the United States 178 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: pretty frequently to showcase and sell her original works as 179 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: well as plaster copies. One of the interesting pieces she 180 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: created during this time was a copy of Michelangelo's Moses. 181 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: She made this and other copies of classical sculptures in 182 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: order to study them and improve her technique. Yeah. This, 183 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: I may be completely naive. This sort of blows my 184 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: mind because her copy is quite good, and I I 185 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: just to me, it seems amazing that people could just 186 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: make copies of such a beautiful piece and and do 187 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: it in uh, you know, pretty good style. Uh So. 188 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: In eighteen sixty six, she also began a series of 189 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: sculptures featuring Native Americans that were inspired by the Longfellow 190 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: poem The Song of Hiawatha. She created a sculpture titled 191 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: the Old Arrowmaker first, and you'll also see this work 192 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: listed with variations in the title such as the Old 193 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: Indian Arrowmaker and his Daughter or simply Arrowmaker. And this 194 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: piece features a Native American man and his daughter as 195 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: he teaches her how to make arrows. And that piece 196 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: is currently in the collection of the Smithsonian American Art Museum. 197 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: On May twenty one, two thousand nine, another sculpture in 198 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: the Hiawatha series, The Marriage of Hiawatha, sold at auction 199 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: for three hundred and fourteen thousand, five hundred dollars. Henry 200 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: Wadsworth Longfellow visited her studio in Rome to sit for 201 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: a bust, and it's likely that he saw some of 202 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: these sculptures that his works had inspired. He was among many, 203 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: many people who flocked to Edmonia's studio. She became a 204 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: very popular figure in the art world in the second 205 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: half of the nineteenth century, with a really devoted fan 206 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: base and and many prominent people visited her to have 207 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: their likenesses sculpted. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things 208 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: that it's sort of hard, I think, I know for 209 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: me when doing the research to really it took me 210 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: a while to realize, like, oh, she was famous. Like 211 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: you tend to think of art kind of doing a 212 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: artist doing their thing on their own in their studios 213 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: and they sell works that go out. But people really did, 214 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: like sort of have this cult of celebrity around her, 215 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: which to me is sort of fascinating. So she also 216 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: created an anti slavery piece in eighteen sixty seven, which 217 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: is titled Forever Free, and it shows a man and 218 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: woman breaking free of their bonds, and that particular sculpture 219 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: is now part of the collection of Howard University Gallery 220 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: of Art in Washington, d c. She did several chair 221 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: and pieces in a series, including Awake, Asleep and Poor Cupid. 222 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: Awake and Asleep both feature would appear to be the 223 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: same to cherubic infants, and they are very similar except 224 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: for the fact that they're awake or asleep. Poor Cupid 225 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: is a depiction of the cherub reaching for a rose 226 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: in the ground, but his hand has been ensnared in 227 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: a trap. The expression on cupid space is not a 228 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: pained grimace, but he looks more like petulantly irritated. Awake 229 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: and asleep or both in the San Jose Library and 230 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: Poor Cupid is in the Smithsonian's collection. I seriously love 231 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: the expression on Cupid's face in that one, like he 232 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: just looks so bothered. It's a really really lovely capture 233 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: of emotion. Uh and funny. Edmonia Lewis continued to create 234 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: busts as well. Those were really like a pretty standard 235 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: way to keep money flowing in, and she made several 236 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: of them of prominent public figures, including President Abraham Lincoln 237 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: and General Ulysses S. Grant. The end of Edmonia Lewis's 238 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: life story is a lot like it's beginning. It's kind 239 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: of hazy. It was long believed that she had lived 240 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: out the remainder of her years in Italy, but in 241 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: fact she died in London, England in seven This is 242 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: pretty new information. It was unearthed by historian Maryland Richardson 243 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: through diligent efforts at tracking down her grave and records 244 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: of her final years. For a long time, her year 245 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: of death was completely inconsistent and source material, and her 246 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: place of death was pretty much assumed to be Rome. Yeah. 247 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: Marilyn Richardson has done a lot of work, uh, studying 248 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: in Monia Lewis's life and has just a broad, broad 249 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: scope of revelatory information. Uh. And as the eighteen hundreds ended, 250 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: the neo classical style that Lewis had been so skilled 251 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: in was falling out of favor, and Rome had really 252 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: been surpassed by Paris as the vogue city for artists. 253 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: So we know that by nineteen o one, according to 254 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: census records, Lewis had moved to London already she died, 255 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: it turned out of kidney disease. Church records indicate that 256 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: Lewis was laid to rest in London St Mary's Roman 257 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: Catholic Cemetery for a fee of five pounds fifty two 258 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: pence according to her final wishes. Her death was announced 259 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: only in a British Roman Catholic bulletin called Tablet, and 260 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: that posting made no mention of her art career. Her 261 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: will listed Lewis as a sculptor and spenced and one 262 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: of the more fascinating aspects of Lewis as a historical 263 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: figure is her legacy as a Native American slash African 264 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: American sculptor. It's one of those things where if you 265 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: just look up her name, that's kind of like the 266 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: very brief blurb you'll see, like America's first prominent Native 267 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: American African American sculptor, but like her nebulous origin story, 268 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: there's actually a great deal about her that's unclear, and 269 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: this identity becomes very interesting and shifts a little bit, 270 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: and it seems, at least in part to be due 271 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: to a degree of shrewdness on her part. She was 272 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: pretty comfortable allowing press coverage of her work during her 273 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: life to characterize her based largely on that Native American 274 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: or African American heritage, but ignoring the fact that she 275 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: was well educated and really quite worldly. In an interview 276 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: with The Toast, in historian Marilyn Richardson said of Edmonia 277 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: Lewis quote, she worked both sides of the street, depending 278 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: on her audience and her patrons. She emphasized her blackness 279 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: or her her Native American origins. She was very savvy 280 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: about how to keep her identity and play, and this 281 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: portrayal of her in the press at the time as 282 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: something of a novelty of under kinnd may have helped 283 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: elevate her visibility as an artist. So that was no 284 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: small feat for a woman of color in the eighteen hundreds. 285 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: And additionally, press coverage at the time that spoke of 286 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: her as this sort of mysterious, exotic, almost childlike creature 287 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: who had suddenly appeared on the European art scene meant 288 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: that her previous scandals at school could pretty much go unmentioned. 289 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: It was like she had divorced herself from that life 290 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: and was creating this new identity for her public persona. 291 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: Next up, we'll talk about one of Lewis's most important works, 292 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: which has its own unique history. But first we'll have 293 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: another quick pause for a word from a sponsor. One 294 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: of Edmonia Lewis's largest sculptures, and somebody even argue her 295 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: most important, was a piece titled A Death of Cleopatra, 296 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: which weighed a whopping two tons, and it depicts the 297 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: Egyptian queen in the moments after her suicide, still seated 298 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: on her throne. And while it was not uncommon for 299 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: artists to represent Cleopatra in the moments before her death, 300 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: Lewis's realistic representation of the actual death was actually considered 301 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: somewhat distasteful by some critics. But in eighteen seventy six, 302 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: soon after its completion, The Death of Cleopatra was shown 303 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: at the Philadelphia Exposition to a great critical reception. It 304 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: was shown again in eighteen seventy eight in Chicago. At 305 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: the Expo. It was one of five dred sculptures on display, 306 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: but it really stood out. It was called quote the 307 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: most remarkable piece of sculpture in the American section by J. S. 308 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: Ingram and his books. His book about the Expo's Art 309 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: Offerings Centennial Exposition described and illustrated artist William J. Clark Jr. 310 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: Wrote of the Cleopatra statue in eight seventy eight, quote, 311 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: this was not a beautiful work, but it was a 312 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: very original and very striking one. Cleopatra is seated in 313 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: a chair, the poison of the asp has done its work, 314 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: and the queen is dead. The effects of death are 315 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: represented with such skill as to be absolutely repellent. And 316 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: it is a question whether a statue of the ghastly 317 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: characteristics of this one does not overstep the bounds of 318 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: legitimate art. Unfortunately, when Edmonia returned to Rome, the Death 319 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: of Cleopatra had to stay behind in the United States 320 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: because while she hadn't sold it, she also couldn't afford 321 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: the return shipping costs this enormous work of art. We 322 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: have talked before about how it can be quite difficult 323 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: to move large sculptures across an ocean. Uh And it 324 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: went into storage and after Edmonia left it in the US, 325 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: this piece had an interesting life. It first reappeared as 326 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: a piece of decor in a Chicago saloon on Clark 327 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: Street in and then at some point it ended up 328 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: in the possession of a gambler named Blind John Condon, 329 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: who installed them horrible piece at a race track in 330 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: Forest Park, Illinois. The massive work sat on top of 331 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: a horse's grave. The horse had been named Cleopatra, and 332 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: when the land there was purchased by the U. S. 333 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: Navy to become military housing, the statue remained kind of place. 334 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: A covenant in the properties deed that step that stipulated 335 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: that the horse's grave and its impressive, impressive statue had 336 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: to stay there undisturbed. When the property was later purchased 337 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: by the Edmere Construction Company to build a new shopping mall, 338 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: the statue finally moved. They did not care about that 339 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: covenant apparently, but this time the statue just sat in 340 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: a workyard and was more or less forgotten. Some years later, 341 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: a sister of fire chief named Harold Adams was inspecting 342 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: the property and saw this Cleopatric statue. He was taken 343 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: with its beauty and wanted to help make sure it 344 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: wasn't completely lost the time, so first you moved at 345 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: the higher ground in the yard. He also wanted to 346 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: try to clean up the sculpture because there was graffiti 347 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: on it, so his son's Scout Troupe painted over this 348 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: graffiti with why latex paint. Adams later told the Chicago 349 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: Tribune that they did so quote so she'd look decent 350 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: until somebody came along he would know better what to 351 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: do for her. And over the course of a decade, 352 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: Adams really did try to kind of find a way 353 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: to get this statue into a more proper setting. He 354 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: placed notices in the paper, and sometimes the paper would 355 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: cover his work as like a special interest story, and 356 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: he did this hoping someone would know about its past 357 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: and come forward to help. And eventually a few people 358 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: did start to share information about the sculptures time as 359 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: a grave marker, and this got the attention of the 360 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: Forest Park Historical Society. The historical group took possession of 361 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: the statue in the nineteen eighties and they moved her 362 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: to a shopping mall storage area, and then in the 363 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: president of the Historical Society, a dentist named Frank Orland, 364 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: reached out to the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art 365 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: for any possible information about the artist because her name 366 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: was carved in the back of the sculpture. The museum 367 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: m connected with Marilyn Richardson, who had been researching and 368 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: Monia Lewis and gave the historian Orleans phone number. Initially, 369 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: Orland didn't return her calls, Sir Richardson flew to Chicago 370 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: to find him. He allowed her to see the statue 371 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: still in the Forest Park Mall storeroom, right along with 372 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: all the seasonal decorations, and initially it seemed like there 373 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: was some tension between them. While the Forest Park Historical 374 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: Society felt that the marble piece was part of their history, 375 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: Richardson worked to convince Orland and his colleagues of the 376 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: statute's import in the larger context of American art history. Yeah, 377 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: it's kind of funny. There's one article that will be 378 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: in the show notes that was one of my sources, 379 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: where it is a contemporary article from when this discovery 380 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: had really come to light and they were trying to 381 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: figure out what was going to happen with it, and 382 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: the quotes from each of them are like these very stilted. 383 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to do what they want to do, 384 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: Like he very clearly doesn't want somebody coming in and 385 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: telling the Historical Society to do with They're fine, And 386 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: she is very concerned that they don't appreciate what this 387 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: piece of art is. It's quite quite uh. Yeah, it's 388 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: very carefully worded, but you can tell there is tension 389 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: going on. But eventually the Art Institute of Chicago and 390 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian Museum came into the picture. George Gurney, the 391 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: American Art Museum sculpture expert, advocated on behalf of the 392 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: Smithsonian to assure Orland that the museum really would be 393 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: the best home for Lewis's historically significant work, and the 394 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: Smithsonian was finally allowed to take possession of the piece 395 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: and it was restored for display at the Smithsonian American 396 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: Art Museum's Loose Foundation Center, where it remains. This restoration 397 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: was intensive and it cost thirty thousand dollars. There's only 398 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: one existing photograph of the work and its original condition 399 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: to work from, and several pieces of the sculpture had 400 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: broken off. Several fingers on Cleopatra's right hand had to 401 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: be replaced, as well as the asp that claimed her 402 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: life and the sandals on her feet. Restoration work was 403 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: carried out with extreme care and a manner that can 404 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: be reversed and edited should better source material come about 405 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: about what the sculpture looks like in its original state, 406 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: and and now it still sits in the Smithsonian's collection, 407 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: which I love. Uh. It's a really beautiful and it 408 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: is very striking sculpture. Uh. And today Oberlin College, where 409 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: Ammonia went to school, is actually home to the Edmonia 410 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: Lewis Center for Women and Transgender People. The center is, 411 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: according to its website quote, a collection of students, staff, 412 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: and administrators who strive to transform existing systems of oppression 413 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: based on sex, gender, race, class, sexuality, age ability, size, religion, nationality, ethnicity, 414 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: and language. Lewis's own sexual orientation remains kind of nebulous, 415 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: similarly to her early and last years of her life. 416 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: She was rumored during her life to have had romantic 417 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: relationship with the women, but these claims really are really 418 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: very difficult to substantiate. One way or the other. Accounts 419 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: of her life will sometimes suggest that this whole poisoning 420 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: incident that she was accused of in college was actually 421 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: an instance of her attempting to use authorities which is 422 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: Spanish fly and the hopes of catalyzing a sexual encounter 423 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: with her roommates and her close knit group of female 424 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: friends in Italy is similarly hinted at as being sexual 425 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: in nature, but while she never married or seemed to 426 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: have any publicly known relationships of any kind, and she's 427 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: sometimes dressed in men's clothing, she never identified on the 428 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: record in any particular way. Yeah, so it's one of 429 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: those cases where I know she is often Uh, she 430 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: does often show up in like lgbt lgbt Q histories 431 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: um as as an artist that they would claim as 432 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: their own, which is great that she's getting exposure, but 433 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: she never you know, we usually don't like to assign 434 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: any sort of sexual identity to someone after they are 435 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: no longer with us to speak for themselves. Right. Well, 436 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: we've we've we've had some like episodes and listener mails 437 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: before we've talked about how like it's really important to 438 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: talk about the broad spectrum of human relationships and history 439 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: and identities and how people have lived their lives. But 440 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, like it's I think really important 441 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: to both of us not to just assign people identities. Yeah, 442 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to assume anything. I mean, it's there 443 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: could be any number of of points on the spectrum 444 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: where she was uh, and since she was not willing 445 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: to give up that information. The rest is conjecture, so 446 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: certainly possible, but I would not claim anything is fact 447 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: because we just don't know. And that is aid Monia 448 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: Lewis who She's one of those those people that I 449 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: had in the back of my mind for a long 450 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: time but never actually put her on a list, and 451 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: I don't know why. And then I was doing research 452 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: for another thing and it stumbled across her and I 453 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: had that moment of why have we not done her? 454 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: On the podcast, well, I had the opposite, like, even 455 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: even though uh, I don't consider myself to be like 456 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: completely ignorant about art, it was not a name I 457 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: really recognized. And then I googled her and went, oh, 458 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: this seems awesome. Yeah, And it is one of those 459 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: things that makes you, It makes me anyway, think about 460 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: kind of how easily people are lost to the passage 461 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: of time. Because she was very famous in the eighteen sixties, 462 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties, so for her to be 463 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: a name that people don't always know now, it's a 464 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: very interesting transition to have happened. And the sculptures, there's 465 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: there are photos of a lot of her sculptures online 466 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: and they are beautiful. Yeah there. I mean her marble 467 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: work is just so striking. Like I said, that expression 468 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: on Cupid gets me every time. Uh it says mix chuckle, 469 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: it's very fun. I like that he looks really your 470 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: tat if you also have some less nor mail I'm do. 471 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: This one is reaching back a little bit to our 472 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: pre uh era, to my discussion with Jerry Hancock about 473 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: this the building that we work in in Sears history, 474 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: and it is from our listener Laura, and it's sort 475 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: of a wonderful uh tale of of how the Sears 476 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: catalog impacted her as a child. She says, Dear Holly 477 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: and Tracy, I absolutely love your podcast listening as weaned 478 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: me from my habit of listening to the news in 479 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: the morning while getting ready for work, and it's taught 480 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: me some interesting facts and puts me in a much 481 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: better mood than the news often left me in. I 482 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: listened to your interview with Jerry Hancock about the history 483 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: of the of Sears and the building it occupied in Atlanta. First, 484 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: let me say thank you to Mr Hancock and all 485 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: of the enthusiastic teachers who devote their careers to inspiring 486 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: our children to love learning you know, I second that 487 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: I have so much gratitude and respect for teachers like him. 488 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: And you discussed how beloved the Sears Catalog was to 489 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: children as a wish list, I wanted to mention how 490 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: I also used to actually play with the Sears Catalog 491 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: when I was a child. My friends and I would 492 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: make up all sorts of imaginative scenarios in which I 493 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: and whoever was playing could close their eyes, open a 494 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: page and point to something on the page. And sometimes 495 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: we would make it a price's Right game in which 496 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: the other would hide the price of the item we 497 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: pointed to and read the description, and then the chooser 498 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: would guess the price, and we would do this a 499 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: few times, keeping up with the difference in how close 500 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: our guesses were to the actual price, and the player 501 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: who had the best guess would, in our imagination, get 502 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: to choose one of the items that were chosen to 503 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: keep in retrospect. We were learning math skills and probably 504 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: some shopping skills as well. It didn't even matter that 505 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: we were not actually getting the prizes, because imagining it 506 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: was just as fun. It kind of cracks me up 507 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,479 Speaker 1: to think about how different my own children's play was 508 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: and is their fourteen, eighteen and twenty six. With all 509 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: of the media and technology that's become part of modern life. 510 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm not claiming it's better or worse, just different. I 511 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: don't have any great suggestions for future podcast because I've 512 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: never been much a history buff until the last couple 513 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: of years. Thank you for igniting my inner history buff 514 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: that I didn't know existed, Laura, Laura, thank you so much. 515 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: That's a lovely thing to think about that it was 516 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: actually teaching kind of some consumer skills and mathematics. Yeah, 517 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: I never would have thought about that, but I'm sure. 518 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: I mean, lots of play that children engage in is 519 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: actually doing that, whether we're conscious of it or not. 520 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: But I like that it was the Sears Catalog, which 521 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: is still beloved to me even though it doesn't exist 522 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: and it's uh previous form. So if you would like 523 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: to write to us and share your stories of how 524 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: you learned math through shopping, through catalog or anything else, 525 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: you can do so at History Podcast at housetu works 526 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find us across the broad 527 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: spectrum of social media as missed in History. That's on 528 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: Twitter at mist in History, Facebook, dot com, slash missed 529 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: in History, missed in History dot tumbler dot com, Pinterest 530 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: dot com, slash mist in history, and on Instagram as 531 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: at mist in History. And we also have a website 532 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: you want to guess what it is, it's missed in 533 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: History dot com. There you can find show notes for 534 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: every episode that Tracy and I have worked on together, 535 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: as well as a complete archive of every episode of 536 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: the show ever of all time. And you can also 537 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: visit our parents site, how stuff Works if you would 538 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: like to go there hows to works dot com. Type 539 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: did something in the search bar about art, You're probably 540 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: going to get a lot of interesting articles back that 541 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: will keep you occupied and entertained and informed for quite 542 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: some time. So do indeed visit us at miss in 543 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: history dot com and how stuff works dot com for 544 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics because it 545 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com.