1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. So I 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: live in Washington, d C. And it's been a rough 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: few weeks. My city is still reeling from a violent 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: attack on the Capitol by white supremacist Trump supporters, and 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: now we're all honkering down to prepare for the threat 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: of inauguration violence. And I'm still making sense of everything, 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: how we got here and most importantly, how we moved forward. 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: And I know I'm not alone. Melissa Ryan is a 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: long time digital organizer turned extremism and disinformation expert. In October, 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: we sat down to discuss the ways that she was 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: seeing disinformation playing out in the lead up to the election. Now, 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: at the time, we didn't know what would happen in 14 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: the election or the kind of violence that would follow. 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: In hindsight, the signs were always there. But after four years, 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: you couldn't really blame anybody who was just tuning Trump 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: out as a coping mechanism. His Twitter feed was an 18 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: all caps mishmash of lies, threats, racism, and whatever. Kovifi 19 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: is like a lot of us election was a turning 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,919 Speaker 1: point for Melissa she'd seen violent rhetoric and conspiracy theories online, 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: but in she remembers the temperature being turned up in 22 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: a way she had never seen before. This was different. 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: It was as if Trump being elected to the White 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: House just dialed everything up. So why this information? Why 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: is this something that you've dedicated so much of your 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: life to? Oh? Lord, I don't know now. I think 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: It's election really broke me. Um because what I saw 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: online in the weeks leading up, you know, you know, 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: I have a long history as an online organizer, um, 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: and what I was seeing didn't make any sense. Everything 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: that Trump was doing was overamplified. Nothing that the left 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: was doing seemed to be getting any play. And there 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: was just more hate speech, um, and more misogyny uh 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: than I had ever seen before. And like, I'm a 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: woman on the internet, so I'm just used to a 36 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: baseline of of a certain amount of that, uh, And 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: it just seemed to be increasing in frequency, uh, and 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: the danger seemed to be increasing. And after the election, 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: I decided that I had to make it my job. 40 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: Do you feel like I guess maybe this is a 41 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: big question, but do you feel when you think of 42 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: the state of disinformation and the conversations that we have 43 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: online as women, as communities of color. Do you feel 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: hopeful or do you feel this is a dumpster fire 45 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: it will only get worse. That's a good question. I 46 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: think it varies from day to day. I think there 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: are things that make me make me hopeful. Um, you know, 48 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: I hope we're about to win an election, um and 49 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: send I think a very big message uh, to to 50 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: the far right about how America at large feels about them. 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: But I I do worry. I worry that a lot 52 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: of progressives still don't quite understand the problem. That they 53 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: think of disinformation as something that affects uh, their their 54 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: aunt or uncle who watched Fox News, um, and not 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: that's largely targeting women or communities of color. Or they 56 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: think that it's just going to go away. Uh if 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: Biden is elected and you know, both of those, uh, 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: both of those are are incorrect, uh and make me worry. 59 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: I'm really worried that if the election goes our way, 60 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: then it's gonna be like, Oh, we don't have to 61 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: worry about disinformation anymore, we don't have to worry about 62 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: hate speech because they're all going to be gone. And 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: that's just simply not the place Biden was elected, and 64 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: once again it was that the temperature got turned up, 65 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: only this time it was turned way up. Six days 66 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: after watching the violent insurrection take place at the Capitol 67 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: that was largely fueled by the repeated, baseless false claim 68 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: that Trump won the election and it was being stolen 69 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: from him. Melissa and I spoke again where two people 70 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: whose work has consisted of warning people that something awful 71 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: is coming, trying to get tech companies to take action 72 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: to prevent it, and generally waiting through the darkest corners 73 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: of the Internet. So if we sound like we're not 74 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: in a great place, well we weren't. So I have 75 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: to say, you know, we are in this intense moment. 76 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: You know, you've been doing this work for such a 77 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: long time. Just in general, how the hell are you? 78 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: It is like it is a wild time to be 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: someone who who works in this space. How are you? Yeah? 80 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: Thank you for asking. Um, I'm I can't say that 81 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I'm okay, and I don't think that any of us 82 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: are okay. Um, it's been it's been such an awful 83 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: experience sort of watching this unfold and be organized online 84 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: so very publicly, and then every day, we find out 85 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: news that says that the attack was much worse, I think, 86 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: even than what we real eised. Like the news just 87 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: keeps getting worse every day. Um. And it's very it's 88 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: very unsettling to think about how many folks who hold 89 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: elected office up to the president we're inciting violence, um. 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: And how many members of Congress and Hill staff and 91 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: frankly like support staff, maintenance and food service have to 92 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: go back to work with some of these folks every 93 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: day less than a week after an attempted coup. I'm 94 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: going to be sitting with that for a long time. Yeah, 95 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: I definitely feel you on that. I think that's one 96 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: of the things that really breaks my heart. You know, 97 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: nobody should be going through this full stop. But then 98 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: when you think about the other staffers and then just 99 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, folks every day, folks in d C who 100 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: have the kind of support who don't have the kind 101 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: of you know, um, who who maybe are not being 102 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: taken care of in this way. Like I remember seeing 103 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: an image of the largely black Capitol Hill staffers cleaning 104 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: up and I thought, you know, did these folks also 105 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: get the benefit of you know, gas mass or detection, 106 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: or were they just out here on their own, trying 107 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: to do their jobs. Yeah. I read a harrowing anecdote 108 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: about how after nine eleven, UM, no one actually came 109 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: to evacuate the support staff and tell them that it 110 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: was safe. And I'm just thinking like, oh, man, I hope, 111 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: I hope that there are better procedures in place now. Um. 112 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: There was also an anecdote about how members of Congress 113 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: were told that bullet proof vested for reimbursable expense, and 114 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 1: I was like, well, I wonder if you're a food 115 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: service worker who's outsourced, I'm guessing it's not a reimbursable 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: expense or even something that's you know, can be on 117 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: your radar. So it's really horrible. A day before the 118 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: violent riot at the Capitol, Melissa tweeted, we should probably 119 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: talk more about how Donald Trump wants his supporters to 120 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: get violent on his behalf tomorrow. He's been encouraging them 121 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: to come for weeks and now inciting them. Well, concerns 122 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: me is how many people are heading to d C 123 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: hoping for violence. So don't seem to be clear with 124 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: one another if Trump is supposed to start the insurrection 125 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: or if they are her tweet would prove to be prophetic. 126 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: Only no one really wants to be able to say 127 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: I told you so when they're talking about a violent 128 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: mob attack. Yeah, it's I love being right generally in 129 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: my life, but there is no worse time to be right, 130 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: um than it's uh thinking about a president inciting violence 131 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: against Americans. Um. It was horrible. I spent my holidays 132 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: at Trump on December nineteenth announced this event and he 133 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: said be there be wild um, and he crowd built 134 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: for it over Twitter a couple more times. Who could 135 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: have seen the events at the Capitol coming Well, pretty 136 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: much anyone who is looking. In fact, Trump's own administration 137 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: found that home grown white supremacist groups who are growing 138 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: spread in America. The Department of Homeland Security called the 139 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: threat from white supremacists the most deadly domestic terror threat 140 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: facing the country, and yet the Trump administ ttration chose 141 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: to instead prioritize what they called quote black identity extremists 142 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: or essentially anyone who was black and happened to be 143 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: connected to Black Lives Matter, as the bigger threat. What's 144 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: hard for Melissa is the fact that these attacks were 145 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: so openly planned on social media platforms folks were just 146 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: on in mega world were so openly organizing. Um. They 147 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: were on the Donald, they were on parlor, in Facebook groups, 148 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: and the rhetoric just kept getting increasingly violent. Uh. And 149 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: they were talking about storming the capital. They were talking 150 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: about how they were going to hang and execute members 151 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: of Congress and anyone who was in the deep state. Uh. 152 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: And it was all just happening on the out in 153 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: the open, and it was very disturbing. Um. And partly 154 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: it's very disturbing because it's really hard to tell like 155 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: who is fantasizing and who is actually making plans. Yeah, 156 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: I can imagine that. And I think from what you 157 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: just said, you know, if you knew where to look, 158 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: these things were being organized in plain sight. What is 159 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: it like then to have so many official kind of 160 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: make it seem as though we could never have predicted this, 161 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: We could have never prepared for this. What if that? 162 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: And it almost kind of feels like a kind of 163 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: gas lighting where you're thinking, oh, I literally just saw 164 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: this being planned on Twitter dot com in public or 165 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: on parlor. You know, having all of these officials kind 166 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: of like lean on this language that makes it seem 167 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: like no one could have seen this coming. What does 168 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: that like to see? Yeah, I mean, what I'll say is, 169 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: whiteness is a hell of a drug. It's it's I 170 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: have no doubt in my I mean, I think about 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: how we know law enforcement surveills and infiltrates, uh, supposedly 172 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: groups of all political stripes, but we know what happens 173 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: to folks on the left. We know what's been happening 174 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: to Black Lives Matter. Um. I can't imagine if something 175 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: on a Black Lives Matter forum or group or conversation 176 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,239 Speaker 1: was said that was like a quarter of this vitriolic 177 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: that there wouldn't be just an incredible police presence in response. Um. 178 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: And that all this was happening for weeks. And again like, 179 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: there's no way folks didn't see what was happening. Um, 180 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: it's just that they saw what was happening and chose 181 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: not to take it seriously. You know, folks like you 182 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: and other organizations and the organization that I represent, Ultraviolet, 183 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: We've been calling on tech platforms to take this information 184 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: and violent rhetoric on social media seriously forever. I mean, 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: you and I have been in some of the same 186 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: meetings with leadership from companies like Facebook, and Twitter, and 187 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: we just listened to them say over and over again, Oh, 188 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't 189 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: do this, and throw up their hands. And it turns 190 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: out they could do it this whole time. Yeah, all 191 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: it took was a violent, attempted coup. Um. No. I 192 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: mean what I go back to is the tech platforms 193 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: and Facebook is the worst actor, but I think, you know, 194 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: YouTube and Twitter have to take some heat too. They've 195 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: always treated this like a PR problem, and when we 196 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: see big changes is after terrible tragic events happen, um, 197 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: and then it's like no one could have predicted, no 198 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: one could have prevented. Um. Cheryl Sandberg actually had the 199 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: audacity to say yesterday that this attack wasn't organized on Facebook, 200 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: which was just I don't even know how still, after 201 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: all these years you can say that with a straight 202 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: face or what PR person would advise you to do that? Um. 203 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: But again it's like I think, I hope you know, 204 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: we know from news public reporting that Twitter seems to 205 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: indicate that part of the reason that they took down 206 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: Trump's account and did another round of takedowns was because 207 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: of UM intelligence they received about more violence. So I'm 208 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: sure that plays into it as well, but after the 209 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: past four years, it's hard not to be cynical and 210 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: be like, oh, you just see this as another PR problem. Yeah, 211 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: I mean I completely agree to to. To go back 212 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: to Sheryl Sandbord in that video yesterday, she said, oh, 213 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: we Facebook moved to take down all the staff to 214 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: steal groups. And I happened to have all my other 215 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: monitor Facebook up and I was looking at the group. 216 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: So I was like, well, she's telling me that they're down, 217 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: but here I am. Here they are with my eyes 218 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: looking at them. Well, I mean, how much you know 219 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: we talked about being in some of the same meetings. 220 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: How how often have you know we've been there with 221 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations who are saying this is what we're seeing, 222 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: this is what it is, here's the list, and then 223 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: Facebook dances around it like, oh, they've only had two 224 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: strikes and our review is different. And it's just you know, 225 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: abdicating responsibility again and again. It's always something it really, 226 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: it really is like a crisis of leadership. It's you know, 227 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: passing the book. It's blaming you know, contract content moderators 228 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 1: or something. It's it's there's always something I feel where 229 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: they're able to really skirt accountability. And I think it's 230 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: interesting to watch how quickly they're moving now with how 231 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: slowly they've been moving in the past, and how they've 232 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: just been, you know, parenting this idea that there's not 233 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: much they can do when it's clear that's not the case. Yeah, 234 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: you said in the early days of COVID too. I mean, 235 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: I think Facebook took a lot more proactive action than 236 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: they have in the past because they could sort of, 237 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, see what was coming, and they still didn't 238 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: do enough. But it's like, well, we know you can 239 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: move fast when you need to. What was your reaction 240 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: to Trump being kicked off social media, you know, first 241 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: Facebook and then Twitter. I was it was truly stunned 242 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: when he was finally, uh suspended from Twitter, especially when 243 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: it was permanent. I remember, just like that night, just 244 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: like staring at the space where his page used to be. Um, 245 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: I think I've tweeted you know, your moment of zen 246 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: And honestly, like selfishly, I was like, oh my god, 247 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm never gonna have to wake up and wonder what 248 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: he tweeted. Um, I'm never gonna have to worry if 249 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: he like started a war or fired someone or anything 250 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: over Twitter. UM. So personally, uh, it was God, it 251 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: was like this giant weight had been lifted off. I 252 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: have seen so many people, some of whom are people 253 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: that I respect or who's you know, I think are 254 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: thoughtful people making this argument of like, well, if they 255 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: can do this to Trump because they don't like what 256 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: he has to say, who what's stopping them from doing 257 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: it to me or to you or to anybody else? 258 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: Making Trump being de platformed about a free speech issue? 259 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: Do do you believe that Trump being de platform FUM, 260 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter and social media is a free speech issue. 261 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: I don't, because again, he was inciting violence, and uh, 262 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: when we're talking about free speech, we're talking about free 263 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: speech of a select few, and it completely ignores everyone 264 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: who has been uh d platformed or harassed offline over 265 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: the number of years by these same folks. UM. I 266 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: also think the world leader Twitter's World leaders policy in 267 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: particular is something we haven't talked about enough in this 268 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: UM and I think, you know, I've got kind of 269 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: an obsession with it. UM for a long time. Twitter, 270 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: if you were a world leader, they were going to 271 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: leave your tweet up No matter what it was, because 272 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: it was newsworthy UM. And basically what that did was 273 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: it gave world leaders another weapon to abuse UM. And 274 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: obviously every world leader isn't going to abuse it, but 275 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: it was. If you know that your tweet is not 276 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: going to be taken down, that gives you a lot 277 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: more leeway to do things like incite violence and make threats. 278 00:14:49,720 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and we're back. I wish 279 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: we lived in a world where world leaders could be 280 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: trusted to not incite violence and make threats, but let's 281 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: be real, that's not the world. Americans have spent the 282 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: last four years living in the seductive power of violence 283 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: and threats, combined with the power of unrestricted social media access, 284 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: proved to be too much for demagogues like Trump to resist. 285 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: Social media companies need to be held accountable when their 286 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: platforms are used to spread hatred and incite violence. There 287 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: need to be standards, and elected officials whose voices are 288 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: amplified by the power of their office should be held 289 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: to them too. So I've always maintained that world leaders 290 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: should actually be held to the same standard that any 291 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: other user on Twitter. Twitter is partly because the idea 292 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: of newsworthiness is silly because world leaders have a million 293 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: other channels where things that they say are are newsworthy, 294 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: but also because it just gives already powerful people an 295 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: extra weapon to wield against their political opposition. Another question 296 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: I have for you is, you know, I think that 297 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: for so long we had this idea that people who 298 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: were spreading conspiracy theories and disinformation were like fringe groups. 299 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: What is it? How do we combat it? When you 300 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: have elected officials, some of us who took part in 301 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: the in the you know, insurrection, How do we combat 302 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: this idea that we're dealing with a handful of fringe 303 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: people when in fact it is it's elected officials. It 304 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: is like the official GOP repeating you know, false claims 305 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: about Antifa being behind the attacks on the Capitol. How 306 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: can we combat it when it's it's in sometimes it's 307 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: in some cases seems to have gone so mainstream. Yeah, 308 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: I mean, look, the biggest purveyor of disinformation in the 309 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: election was Donald Trump, and he used his presidential campaign 310 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: and the White House and every lever of federal government 311 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: that he had to spread disinformation. Um, that's not fringe. 312 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: We've also had an increasing amount of far right candidates 313 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: run for office and win. There are currently two members 314 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: of Congress who are known believers of Q and on UH, 315 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Board in um Colorado. I 316 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: don't think I said the latter's name correctly, but it's 317 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: fine um so, and we see an increasing amount Like 318 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: there's Amanda Littman on Twitter has been keeping a list 319 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: of all the state legislators who showed up at the 320 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: capitol and were involved in the insurrection. So these folks 321 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: have been building political power in the Republican Party for 322 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: a long time. They hold elected office. That's not French. Yeah, 323 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: that's a great point. You know, when people talk about 324 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: how Donald Trump's free speech is being suppressed, he could, 325 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, do a press conference, do a press release there. 326 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: I mean, presidents were able to get their thoughts out 327 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: before social media existed, so he certainly has a plethora 328 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: of channels with which to put his opinions out into 329 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: the world. And I think it's really something that we're 330 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: acting as if, you know, as if the only avenue, 331 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: the only avenue that he can do that as social media. 332 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: That might be the way that Trump personally feel, but 333 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: it is not the case Yeah, Now I really enjoyed 334 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: Republicans going on national television complaining about how they're being silence. Yeah, 335 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I didn't realize that. Uh, if when 336 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: you have your speech like suppressed, you get to go 337 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: on like the major cable news networks to talk about it. Actually, 338 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: And I also think, I mean, I think it really 339 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: speaks to this idea of who like free speech for who, 340 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: because you know, we know that black activists, progressive groups 341 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: have long complained about about being suppressed on social media platforms, 342 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: and so those are conversations that completely predate what we're 343 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: talking about. And yet now when it's Trump, who who 344 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: is you know, having his accounts banned for terms of 345 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: service violations repeatedly, that is the free speech issue. But 346 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: all of the times where progressive groups and black activists 347 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: and folks like that have said, oh, we're being we're 348 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: having our are being suppressed on social media platforms, it 349 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: didn't seem to be that same issue. M And all 350 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 1: the folks who have been driven and again particularly uh, 351 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: black people, people of color, women who have been driven 352 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: offline by harassment from these folks, and we don't talk 353 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: about that either, like that's a form of d platforming 354 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: as well. So this is actually something I know a 355 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: bit about firsthand. Once upon a time, I used to 356 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: love the social media platform Reddit, and there was a 357 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: time in my life where I spent hours every day 358 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: moderating a subreddit that I loved, but that i'll ended 359 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: after getting a lot of coordinated sexist, racist harassment on 360 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: the platform. It pretty quickly became clear that staying on 361 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: Reddit would mean subjecting myself to a nonstopped torrent of 362 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: harassment and threats. So I left. I had been d platformed. 363 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: You know, I as someone who has you know, makes 364 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: my living on the internet, and it's been online for 365 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: a long time, even before all of this. Something that 366 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: I was always struck by is this idea that things 367 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: that happen online are aren't real, or don't really matter, 368 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: or aren't don't have real world consequences. And I think 369 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: that's something that that I have bumped up against pretty 370 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: much my whole adult life, that if something happens online, 371 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: just shut your computer, you know, go outside. Why don't 372 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, delete your Twitter and focus on the real world. 373 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if we're finally getting to a point where 374 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: folks can't say that anymore. Folks can't say like, oh, 375 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: it's just happening online, it's just happening on Fortune and 376 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: what have you. But actually, what we know these things 377 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: have real world consequences. Yeah, I mean, there's just not 378 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: a recognition of how much online rhetoric radicalizes folks and 379 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: leads to offline action, whether that's terrorism, whether that's online harassment. Um, 380 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: in the case of of progressive activists, you know, uh, 381 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: your personal safety is often in danger. Uh you know. 382 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: I this week might have been a turning point and 383 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: understanding that, but I feel like people who just don't 384 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: want to think about it, that's an easy thing that 385 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: they can say, oh, you know, just turn your computer off. Yeah, 386 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: I hate that. I mean the first time that I 387 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: ever had, you know, kind of scary harassment online, I 388 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: am going to law enforcement and this was many, many 389 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: years ago, and it was just so clear to me 390 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: that they did not understand what I was describing or 391 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: what I was dealing with. And the officer that I 392 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: spoke to was like, oh, you should just stay off 393 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: of the Internet. And at that point in my life, 394 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: I was a budding you know, internet critic and and 395 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: budding on it organizer. So I was like, so, essentially, 396 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: you're telling me to quit my job, go back to college, 397 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: find a brand new career. You know. It is like like, 398 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: like this idea that I could just end all of 399 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: this by logging off I found to be just really 400 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: deeply exposed. How little at that time law enforcement was 401 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: taking this seriously. M hmm. Yeah, I mean there's not 402 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: a recognition that for so many of us are our 403 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: jobs are largely online, and our lives are largely online. Um, 404 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: and just logging off just isn't an option for most 405 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: of the population exactly. Um. Something that you tweeted that 406 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: I found so so interesting. You said, this is the 407 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: last gas with the Trump administration, but I worry about 408 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: what it might might have birthed. Tell me about that. 409 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: What do you think? Where do you think we go 410 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: moving forward? Yeah? I mean it's gonna be interesting. And 411 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: I think a lot of where we go has to 412 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: do with how much we hold the people responsible for 413 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: this accountable. Um. You know, if we sweep this under 414 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: the rug, we are sending a strong signal that you 415 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: can terrorism is an okay way to get what you want, uh, politically, 416 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: but I do think it's important to recognize that in 417 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: what eight days. Now, Trump is no longer going to 418 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: be the president. He's not going to have the power 419 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: of the White House, He's not going to have the 420 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: power of every agency in the federal government. So his 421 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: power to influence is going to be greatly diminished. Um. 422 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: And I think Joe Biden has an opportunity, uh, you know, 423 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: to hold to hold folks to account, to hold organizations 424 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: to account, and really start to get into the systemic 425 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: changes that need to happen for this not to happen again. Um. 426 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: I think it's also gonna be really interesting to see 427 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: what Republicans do, because I mean they're rattled. You saw 428 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: McConnell on the floor that night. The man was visibly shaken. Um, 429 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: And so is you know, what are what are they 430 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 1: going to do? And that's gonna tell us a lot 431 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: about where things are going as well. More. After this break, 432 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: let's get right back to it. I've been seeing a 433 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: lot of people calling for unity right now, Let's try 434 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: to come together. I think the first thing we need 435 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: to do as leaders in America is lower the temperature 436 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: and try to come together. I think we need to 437 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: lower the rhetoric. We need to get some immunity going. 438 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: But you can't have unity without accountability without justice. And 439 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: as one of the half a million Americans who calls 440 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: Washington d see my home, it's obvious we aren't there yet. 441 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: Today I'm preparing for an inauguration weekend where it might 442 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: not be safe to leave my apartment. I'm buying groceries 443 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: and making plans in case the mayor declares an emergency 444 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: curfew like she did the day of the riots. I'm 445 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: watching elected officials and far right media outlets continue to 446 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: traffic and the same kind of baseless conspiracy theories that 447 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: got us here in the first place, that quote Antifa 448 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: or Democrats are responsible for the terror at the Capitol. 449 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: Here's Representative Matt gets repeating a false claim on the 450 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: House floor that a facial recognition company found quote Antifa 451 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: members were part of the Capital riots. And I don't 452 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: know if the reports are true, but the Washington Times 453 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: has just reported some pretty compelling evidence from a facial 454 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: recognition company showing that some of the people who breached 455 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: the capital today we're not Trump supporters. They were masquerading 456 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: as Trump supporters and in fact were members of the 457 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: violent terrorist group Antifa. That's a total lie, by the way, 458 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: The Washington Times attracted the story after the facial recognition 459 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: company threatened legal action. So where's the accountability? Melissa hopes 460 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: President elect Biden can unite the country, but not without 461 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: accountability for everyone, the insurgents who stormed the capital, but 462 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: also the elected officials, media outlets, and social media platforms 463 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: who helped them get there. So you actually published what 464 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: you called a roadmap to accountability. Tell me about that. 465 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: I think what has happened here is like you can't 466 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: even describe it as a systemic failure. Um. And we all, 467 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: I think as Americans have a role to play in 468 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: holding institutions and people accountable. UM. So I just mentioned, uh, 469 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: you know where I thought were good places to start, 470 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: and some of them, you know, we've talked about already, 471 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: the tech companies, Trump and his administration, the Republican Party, 472 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: law enforcement, um, particularly the white supremacy problem that we 473 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: we know and have in law enforcement. UM and and 474 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: the rioters themselves. UM And I think what's interesting about 475 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: Joe Biden. You know, his most of his rhetoric has 476 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: been about unity and coming together, but he's also been 477 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: very specific about, uh, the need for accountability. Uh. He 478 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: called the rioters seditionists yesterday, which I thought was great. Um. 479 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: And when he was introducing his Justice Department nominees, Uh, 480 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: he talked about the importance of holding these folks accountable, uh, 481 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: calling them out, calling what they did crimes. He called them, 482 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, he used the words like terrorism and terrorists. UM. 483 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: So I don't necessarily want to discount what Joe Biden 484 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: is going to do. So are you hopeful in this moment? 485 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: You know, when you think about the state of disinformation 486 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: and how we got here, are you hopeful for what's 487 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: on the horizon? I mean, I'm not a hopeful person 488 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: by nature. If I was, I probably wouldn't do this 489 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: work because it would like kill my soul. Um. You know, 490 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: I will just say that I can see what's possible. UM. 491 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: I have also seen us, you know, particularly in the 492 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: past decade of of American politics, make the wrong choice 493 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: again and again. But I finally see a landscape where 494 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: it is possible to start having some of these changes 495 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: and accountability. You know, we have of the Senate, we 496 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: have Congress, we have an administration that has signaled they're 497 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: they're going to take domestic terrorism and white supremacy and 498 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: disinformation seriously, so we have all the pieces in place. Yeah, 499 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: that's a good way to think about it. So maybe 500 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: not hopeful, but you know, cautiously like we'll see what happens. Yeah. Um. So. 501 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: One of my last questions for you is, you know, 502 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: I don't that you've written quite a bit about this. 503 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: Um women and underrepresented communities are some of the biggest 504 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: targets of disinformation that would be disproportionately deal with it. 505 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: What does it feel like to know that so many 506 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: of so much of the I guess infrastructure of combating 507 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: disinformation and violent rhetoric are women? You know? When we 508 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: are in these meetings sometimes I look around on zoom 509 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, this is all the people who 510 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: are here calling for accountability are women? What is it like? 511 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: You know? Also seeing when insurrectionists are unmasked online, I 512 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: feel a lot of the people doing that very dangerous 513 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: but critical work are women. Women exactly like I. I 514 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: just want to highlight our role in this work. It's 515 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: do you ever feel the same way I do? I 516 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: I both feel a great source of pride and then 517 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: also of frustration when it's a panel of disinformation and 518 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: they try to do all men who work in tech. 519 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: Um So, I think it's it's a situation that I 520 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: see reflected in politics a lot, where women are like 521 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: digging in and doing the work, and you know, a 522 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: certain contingent of men are sort of building profiles for themselves. 523 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: Um So, I think it's, you know, it's a mixed bag. 524 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: I'm really glad to see that that work is happening. 525 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: Um but I really wish more women got credit. I 526 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: was so happy about, uh you you mentioned women who 527 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: were unmasking these guys, the profile in the Washington Post 528 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: this weekend um of of Molly Conger and and Emily Gorzewski, 529 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: who have been doing this work of unmasking Nazis online 530 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: just since Charlotte'sville. And it was so great to see 531 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: them get their doe in their credit for this work. Absolutely, 532 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: and I also think, you know, not even that long ago, 533 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: they were kind of villafied for that work. It was 534 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: it was seen as like like starting trouble online. And 535 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: now we read I think that now, I hope we're 536 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: able to step back and say, actually that that very dangerous, 537 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: thankless work they were doing. It's actually a reason why 538 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: we're here now. That we have some hope and have 539 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: some infrastructure for how we can move on from this 540 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: and get accountability. Yeah, and it's been really gratifying seeing 541 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: the whole Internet being like, oh, we have to identify 542 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: these guys. Um. It still blows my mind how they 543 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: were so not worried about consequences that they all live 544 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: stream themselves committing crimes in the Capitol. And I mean 545 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: it's terrifying, right because I think they truly thought they 546 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: were gonna win and hold on to the capital. But 547 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: also it's just like, man, it's just the stupidity that's 548 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: on display right now. Yeah. I think one of I forget, 549 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: I forget which guy it was, but one of his 550 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: lawyers was on TV and was like, well, my client 551 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: took selfies while doing it, and you know, I'm not 552 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: a magician. And I thought, I want to hear your 553 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: lawyers say, is I'm not a magician. I watched that 554 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: video so many times yesterday. Well do the best that 555 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: I can. Oh. It really what a time that we 556 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: are living through. Um, Melissa, thank you so much for 557 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: taking the time to speak with me. Where can folks 558 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing 559 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: and support it. Oh, thank you so much. UM, it's 560 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: always great to talk to you, Bridget. So you can 561 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: subscribe to Control all right, delete at Control all right. 562 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: Delete dot com goes out every Sunday night. 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