Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast,
Speaker 1: Thinking out Loud with Elvis Duran. I'll be bringing you
Speaker 1: candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people
Speaker 1: from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that
Speaker 1: you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure,
Speaker 1: or whatever else comes to mind. But all jacked up
Speaker 1: because after being in this business for as long as
Speaker 1: I have, I want to get to the bottom of
Speaker 1: what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast,
Speaker 1: Thinking out Loud on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. So how does the half American,
Speaker 1: half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans. There's absolutely no
Speaker 1: journalism experience, right the biggest story of the eighties, That's
Speaker 1: what journalista is all about. I'm a woman, wife beater
Speaker 1: or T shirt, not wearing a brawl curses like a sailor.
Speaker 1: I got balls bigger than any man. Dan Rathie used
Speaker 1: to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalist to
Speaker 1: every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. George Wagner the Fourth was trying
Speaker 1: to keep a testimony of family members who have already
Speaker 1: confessed out of his trial. His lawyers argued Tuesday that
Speaker 1: his brother Jake and his mother Angela should not be
Speaker 1: allowed to testify against him. Defense lawyer John Parker argued
Speaker 1: that such an agreement violates due process. In the end
Speaker 1: Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering ruled against the defense motion,
Speaker 1: meaning that both Jake and Angela can testify and that
Speaker 1: their confessions can be used in court. Welcome to the
Speaker 1: Pike and Massacre, a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: Season three, Episode six, Trial and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong,
Speaker 1: a television producer. Are at kat Studios with Stephanie Lydecker
Speaker 1: and Jeff Shane. We're breaking down the court proceedings against
Speaker 1: the Wagners as they currently stand, as well as looking
Speaker 1: into information on the courtroom players. The test is, can
Speaker 1: you get twelve people from Pike County that can be
Speaker 1: fair and impartial and give that mister Wagner, give the
Speaker 1: state of Ohio fair trial. On January nineteenth, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion for a change of venue.
Speaker 1: They basically outline the reasons why they believe a fair
Speaker 1: and impartial jury cannot be seated in Pike County. They
Speaker 1: say they will be providing the court with evidence of
Speaker 1: this just prejudicial negative pre trial publicity. I mean there
Speaker 1: are people who are scared as Wagners too, So you
Speaker 1: may find people who are like, I am not doing this.
Speaker 1: Death penalty cases are hard, and I think they're meant
Speaker 1: to be hard, to be honest, because there's a lot
Speaker 1: at stake in Ohio. Just knowing about it, or being present,
Speaker 1: or driving the getaway car or being a part of
Speaker 1: this conspiracy in Ohio, you're just as guilty, George. The
Speaker 1: forst case is set to go to trial, and that
Speaker 1: is even if they can find a jury in time,
Speaker 1: because in Ohio, when you're selecting a jury, you have
Speaker 1: to pick a jury in the venue in which the
Speaker 1: crime happened. As a reminder, at this point, the Wagner family,
Speaker 1: one seemingly tight knit, are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was
Speaker 1: the first Domino to fall, pleading guilty to murdering five
Speaker 1: of the a Rodents in exchange for testifying against his
Speaker 1: family matriarch Angelo Wagner folded next, pleading guilty to conspiracy
Speaker 1: to commit aggravated murder and other charges as part of
Speaker 1: her plea deal. Here's reporter Anette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1: She admitted to her role in the planning of these homicides,
Speaker 1: and she could get out after serving thirty years. That's
Speaker 1: not a given, but she's eligible for release after serving
Speaker 1: thirty years. She admitted to basically helping plan all of
Speaker 1: this and carry it out. That she did not go
Speaker 1: to the scenes of the murders that night. That leaves
Speaker 1: two remaining suspects, father Billy Wagner and his thirty year
Speaker 1: old son George Wagner, both have pled not guilty and
Speaker 1: are awaiting trials. In some of these hearings all of
Speaker 1: four defendants. Each defendant was made an offer by the
Speaker 1: state to cooperate, so Jake and Angela took that offer,
Speaker 1: and it appears that George the fourth and Billy did not.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of where we are right now. Antonette
Speaker 1: theorizes that there's little chance for a plea deal for
Speaker 1: George and his father at this stage, after four years
Speaker 1: of steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would
Speaker 1: think the only incentive for either one of them to
Speaker 1: plead would be to go to the state and say Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll plead guilty. Just take the death kind of the
Speaker 1: off the table. I don't see why the state would
Speaker 1: offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two
Speaker 1: other family members who are willing to testify against them.
Speaker 1: Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the
Speaker 1: rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there
Speaker 1: is in a box, and he knows that. So there
Speaker 1: would be no reason that the state, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: would make any other offer to Billy or George. The
Speaker 1: State of Ohio was represented by prousecuting Attorney Robert johnk
Speaker 1: also by special prosecuting a Journey to Angela Kaneppa and JIW.
Speaker 1: Kaneppa has been a special prosecutor on this case. From
Speaker 1: the outset. We've heard a lot from a Jaw Kaneppa
Speaker 1: in the courtroom this season, but didn't know much about her.
Speaker 1: Here's former prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff
Speaker 1: well If. She seems very calm, and it's a nerve
Speaker 1: racking experience because there's so much you have to stay
Speaker 1: on top of, and it seems like they're depending on
Speaker 1: her quite a bit. But she doesn't seem rattled by it.
Speaker 1: She seems very self possessed and focused. And I think
Speaker 1: in my mind when I've handled cases and I often
Speaker 1: had children as victims or others, I know that I
Speaker 1: am working fighting for that victim and for that family,
Speaker 1: and that helps me put it aside any of my
Speaker 1: own nervousness or edginess. Not that it won't be there,
Speaker 1: but it helps me put it in the right place.
Speaker 1: So here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the
Speaker 1: special prosecutor. We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling
Speaker 1: Green State University. She also went to law school at
Speaker 1: Ohio State. Started practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she
Speaker 1: worked for the Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for
Speaker 1: over twenty years before going to the Ohio Attorney General's
Speaker 1: Office in twenty thirteen. In May of twenty twenty, she
Speaker 1: raised eyebrows when she resigned from the Attorney General's office
Speaker 1: with a one sentence letter that read, effective June twentieth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, I hereby resign my position as Section Chiefs
Speaker 1: within the Special Prosecution Section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office.
Speaker 1: Now when asked for a comment about the sudden and
Speaker 1: sort of kurt departure, a spokesperson for the office referred
Speaker 1: the press back to Kneppa. That would, just to me
Speaker 1: imply that they didn't want to deal with it, and
Speaker 1: they were washing their hands clean of her and her
Speaker 1: relationship with the office. That's interesting that she resigned mid trial.
Speaker 1: You know, they were in the thick of it in
Speaker 1: June of twenty twenty, and these trials were ongoing and
Speaker 1: just really about to heat up. So for her to
Speaker 1: to be heart and then come back as a special
Speaker 1: prosecutor is interesting. I mean when it happened, people and
Speaker 1: pikedon were like, are the trials falling apart? Is everything folding?
Speaker 1: Is this going away? It brought a lot of uncertainty
Speaker 1: to the case, at least for the public. However, it
Speaker 1: couldn't have been all bad blood because just a few
Speaker 1: weeks after this resignation, Kneppa was brought back on the
Speaker 1: case as a special prosecutor at the rate of sixty
Speaker 1: five dollars an hour. That's actually around double the average
Speaker 1: of a prosecutors salary in Ohio, who usually make around
Speaker 1: thirty three dollars an hour, and to sort of add
Speaker 1: perspective to that. You know, defense attorneys can make six
Speaker 1: hundred dollars an hour, if not more sometimes so to
Speaker 1: work for the state as an attorney, you're definitely not
Speaker 1: in it for the money. Each Wagner trial was expected
Speaker 1: to cost a million dollars for the state. That's actually
Speaker 1: a bit lower than the national average, which is about
Speaker 1: one point three million per case. In talking to a
Speaker 1: lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike County particularly
Speaker 1: are kind of frustrated and fed up with how long
Speaker 1: these cases are taking because they feel that it's taxpayer
Speaker 1: dollars that are being spent. You've got to keep in mind, though,
Speaker 1: this is for capital murder trials. At one point, those
Speaker 1: do take time. The wheels of justice sometimes can move slowly,
Speaker 1: and perhaps for good reason. Rob Junk is an important
Speaker 1: figure in Pike County and plays a very large role
Speaker 1: in the prosecution of the four Wagners. At age fifty five,
Speaker 1: Rob Junk has been practicing law since nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: after completing his undergrad at Case Western Reserve University. He
Speaker 1: also went to law school at Cincinnati College of Law.
Speaker 1: He's been prosecuting attorney in Pike County since being elected
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six, and most recently, he actually ran
Speaker 1: to become the Pike County Commons Plea judge, an election
Speaker 1: that he won, and he's due to actually take office
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three at some point. It's pretty unclear
Speaker 1: at the moment how this shift in his position will
Speaker 1: affect the Wagner cases, but as part of his campaign
Speaker 1: he vowed to fairly and impartially enforce and apply the law.
Speaker 1: So Aside from working the routing cases and winning elections,
Speaker 1: Junk is also involved in a pretty public feud with
Speaker 1: former Pike County Ship of Charles Reader, who we all
Speaker 1: know has come under some scrutiny for illegal activities that
Speaker 1: he's partaken in. It all started in November twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: when there was an anonymous complaint filed against Reader, just
Speaker 1: days before the Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader
Speaker 1: just does whatever he wants and no one ever calls
Speaker 1: him on it. We are scared to death of him.
Speaker 1: He is unstable and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: Junk asked Reader to step down from any criminal investigations.
Speaker 1: Reader fired back in a public and sunse deleted Facebook
Speaker 1: post that read put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one
Speaker 1: else may stand up to you and your crooked as connections,
Speaker 1: but I will so help me God. At one point,
Speaker 1: reader wrote another post saying it's past time to clean
Speaker 1: the junk out of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also
Speaker 1: on Facebook, surmising that the request to recuse himself from
Speaker 1: investigations caused the outburst. He wrote again on Facebook, apparently
Speaker 1: makes me a serpent hiding in the shadows because I
Speaker 1: and my office are following the law. So these are
Speaker 1: two publicly elected officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty
Speaker 1: big deal to have a very public dispute like this
Speaker 1: between the prosecutor and also the sheriff, who was in
Speaker 1: office when these murders happened and is currently doing time
Speaker 1: for allegedly taking bribes. It could be seen as a
Speaker 1: very messy feud being played out publicly. While George Wagner's
Speaker 1: defense team staunchly defends his innocence, the prosecution's theory is
Speaker 1: that George had his hand in the murders as much
Speaker 1: as anyone else. Veteran Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this.
Speaker 1: When you hear these people bolstering each other and actually
Speaker 1: sharing ideas and dynamics. They're just as much a part
Speaker 1: of all that ended up happening as the person who
Speaker 1: actually pulled the trigger. And I know that, and I
Speaker 1: think jurors know that, and people know that, But will
Speaker 1: they really hold them accountable. We know that people in
Speaker 1: a mob act differently than people individually. If people in
Speaker 1: that mob step back and don't participate and step away
Speaker 1: from it, it may not happen. And what a difference
Speaker 1: that would have made in the lives of the Rodents.
Speaker 1: Jake and his testimony said his brother was at the
Speaker 1: crime scene but didn't shoot anyone. Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves.
Speaker 1: The information she's referencing is taken directly from Motion eighty.
Speaker 1: Jake's own conduct and the murders has been corroborated by
Speaker 1: his disclosure murder weapons. It is also true that the
Speaker 1: truck allegedly used by Jake and Billy in the murders
Speaker 1: has been recovered as a result of his proffer, but
Speaker 1: Jake has stated clearly that George did not shoot new
Speaker 1: One did not fire a shot was not supposed to
Speaker 1: go with Jake and Billy on the murder spree and
Speaker 1: only went as a last second to protect Jake from Billy,
Speaker 1: who was thought he might kill Jake at the end
Speaker 1: of the series of accredated murders, presumably to get rid
Speaker 1: of a witness. In the state of Ohio, planning and
Speaker 1: executing a murder is still murder even if you don't
Speaker 1: pull the trigger. There's also evidence that George bought the
Speaker 1: truck used the night of the murder. George Wagner's child
Speaker 1: has said for August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's
Speaker 1: child will be later this year, and as often happens
Speaker 1: in murder trials, George's defense team has followed the flurry
Speaker 1: of motions to suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy
Speaker 1: the prosecution's case. Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled
Speaker 1: motion to compel production of other acts evidence pursuant to
Speaker 1: Evidence Rule four or four B, and then Defendish Numbers
Speaker 1: seventy seven. Pre trial motions on both sides, especially in
Speaker 1: a murder case, are routine. The presiding judge holds initial
Speaker 1: hearings to see whether certain evidence should be allowed in
Speaker 1: front of a jury, and in this case, where the
Speaker 1: trial should even happen today my second twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: and this is like hearing. We'd have a hearing schedule
Speaker 1: on motions today. The defendant was present in court because
Speaker 1: those attorneys John Patrick Parker and Richard M. Nash. Here again,
Speaker 1: Stephanie and Jeff on what we know about George Wagner
Speaker 1: the fourth defense team. According to our research, it's actually
Speaker 1: not that common to have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However,
Speaker 1: when you're being charged with a crime as severe as George's,
Speaker 1: having more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful
Speaker 1: in the sense that they have different areas of focus,
Speaker 1: or that they're able to work different hours and thus
Speaker 1: get more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John
Speaker 1: Patrick Parker. He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for
Speaker 1: thirty three years and is based out of Cleveland. He
Speaker 1: also attended Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney
Speaker 1: for George Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a
Speaker 1: local lawyer based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus
Speaker 1: are criminal traffic offenses as well as post conviction dealings.
Speaker 1: At forty six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City,
Speaker 1: and attended Cleveland State University for law school and has
Speaker 1: been practicing law since two thousand and four. In our
Speaker 1: research of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a
Speaker 1: previous client is also involved in this story. He represented
Speaker 1: none other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex
Speaker 1: trafficking charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran
Speaker 1: represented George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter
Speaker 1: years ago. This means that the lawyer who is currently
Speaker 1: defending George used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad.
Speaker 1: It's a little complicated, but it speaks to how this
Speaker 1: community is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by
Speaker 1: the way, even just seeing all of the players come
Speaker 1: together because they're steeped in history. We're going to take
Speaker 1: a break, will be back in a moment. Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends.
Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he
Speaker 1: wasn't He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she
Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with your FI saw him
Speaker 1: right now, I'd spit on him. I would call him
Speaker 1: and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
Speaker 1: listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great.
Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation
Speaker 1: with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you.
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Speaker 1: best calls like oh shoot leave. As someone born and
Speaker 1: raised here, I can tell you there's much more to
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Speaker 1: the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, Call You
Speaker 1: Feeling This. It's ten different stories about La and the
Speaker 1: real people who make up this city. What did you
Speaker 1: listen to my message? Who were just trying to get bought.
Speaker 1: I think I was just freaking out because I'm scared
Speaker 1: by connecting with each other. I'm going to be a father.
Speaker 1: Ye are you feeling? This? A fiction podcast mixtape about love.
Speaker 1: Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. She's a Hollywood Western. She's
Speaker 1: Jack Harrowac but in a nap dress with braids. She
Speaker 1: is one of the most important American children's authors of
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. She's the basis for as television show
Speaker 1: still watched around the world. Somebody somewhere is watching a
Speaker 1: Little as the Birth. She's been called a hero, a racist,
Speaker 1: a feminist, and a propagandist. I think the harm is
Speaker 1: too great because it's just one more thing that Native
Speaker 1: children have to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author
Speaker 1: of the book series Little House on the Prairie. As
Speaker 1: a kid, I idolized Laura, and last summer I went
Speaker 1: on the road in search of the real Laura. We're
Speaker 1: literally on the prairie. What I found was a complicated
Speaker 1: person alongside the complicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol
Speaker 1: and this Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the
Speaker 1: Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well
Speaker 1: the best podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and her partner
Speaker 1: Miranda may Day as they let the wheel of words
Speaker 1: determine the topic of that week's show. Every episode will
Speaker 1: spend a wheel of random words from things like animosity
Speaker 1: to something like zodiac and whatever it lands on, that's
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Speaker 1: Think we can do it? Well, then you've never heard
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Speaker 1: with Raven and Miranda on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Under federal rules, the
Speaker 1: presiding Judge is termed quote the gatekeeper of what evidence
Speaker 1: will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio Judge
Speaker 1: Patrick tinkle Locker on the functions motion surf. You're cleaning
Speaker 1: the slate so you can have a nice clean trial
Speaker 1: when you're getting rid of all those things that Wait
Speaker 1: a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains
Speaker 1: in this room. You file motion. You don't want to
Speaker 1: bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because
Speaker 1: it's like you waited halfway through the trial, and there's
Speaker 1: no sense. In enough and in simplest forms, these are
Speaker 1: things that need to be taken care of so that
Speaker 1: you can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug
Speaker 1: possession case, for example, the defense might ask the judge
Speaker 1: to exclude drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained
Speaker 1: through the legal search of the defendant's house. In a
Speaker 1: murder child such as this, emotion may seek to suppress
Speaker 1: key witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often motions highlight issues
Speaker 1: with the case that become the basis for an appeal
Speaker 1: down the line. One woman concerned for the defense was
Speaker 1: the issue of venue. George. The four child was originally
Speaker 1: slated from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January his
Speaker 1: attorney issued emotion to change the trial venue to a
Speaker 1: different jurisdiction. Judges is obviously one of the highest profile
Speaker 1: cases in the history of this community. There were news
Speaker 1: conferences held by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff,
Speaker 1: by different members of law enforcement updating the community on
Speaker 1: the status of the investigation. Went on for two and
Speaker 1: a half years, and this is subdue to great social
Speaker 1: media discussion in the community. And it's our point of
Speaker 1: view that a jury will not be able to be
Speaker 1: selected here. That's fair to our client, given all of
Speaker 1: this publicity, given all the notoriety of this case, we're
Speaker 1: asking the court to change venue. In essence, the defense
Speaker 1: argued that the murders were so widely followed locally that
Speaker 1: Boidier the process of finding impartial jurors was impossible in
Speaker 1: Pike County. We don't think the court can get a
Speaker 1: fair jury, even though there are many people that probably
Speaker 1: would give it their best effort. But we don't think
Speaker 1: if people were being really honest with themselves and with
Speaker 1: the court, that they're going to be able to say
Speaker 1: that they would be able to put aside everything they
Speaker 1: know about the case, whether it's true or not true,
Speaker 1: and give George a fair trial. Mike Allen is a
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an illegal analyst for Fox
Speaker 1: nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a crucial point about the
Speaker 1: essential fairness of most jurors. It's a motion for change
Speaker 1: of venue. Those motions are frequently filed in high profile cases.
Speaker 1: They're frequently filed, but it's seldom granted. However, in this case, though,
Speaker 1: because Pike County is such a small county and I
Speaker 1: don't know how many registered voters they have, they might
Speaker 1: have a problem seating a jury. But here's the thing,
Speaker 1: and this is probably the most important part of this,
Speaker 1: and I don't think a lot of people realize it.
Speaker 1: If a potential juror who is under oath answers a
Speaker 1: judge's question, can you divorce yourselves and block out of
Speaker 1: your mind any pre trial publicity that you have heard
Speaker 1: and render a verdict based upon the evidence and the law.
Speaker 1: If that juror says, yes, your honor, then that's a
Speaker 1: good juror. I mean, just because someone has seen or
Speaker 1: heard or read a newspaper article about it, that does
Speaker 1: not disqualify them, because if it did, probably nine of
Speaker 1: the people in Pike County would have seen or heard
Speaker 1: something about it. Retire Judge Sylvia Hendon, who's been thirty
Speaker 1: three years in the Benjam Hamilton County, two hundred miles
Speaker 1: from Piketon, has a different view of things. I think
Speaker 1: the change of venue in this case is probably going
Speaker 1: to be the most hotly debated, both before and after
Speaker 1: the trial. Again, Pike County is a county of somewhere
Speaker 1: between twenty five and thirty thousand people. It is going
Speaker 1: to be extremely difficult, in my opinion, to find people
Speaker 1: in that county who don't know somebody involved in the
Speaker 1: case and don't have an opinion on what happened here. Again,
Speaker 1: my alan, if it were not a small county, I
Speaker 1: think it would be a no brainer that the venue
Speaker 1: would not change. But because it is such a small
Speaker 1: county with a small number of registered voters, they might
Speaker 1: blow through all of them. But there used to be
Speaker 1: a law, and I think it's still there that if
Speaker 1: you run out of registered voters, a judge can basically
Speaker 1: send it Baillip or the cops, or you know, anybody
Speaker 1: at his discretion to just literally pull him off the street.
Speaker 1: The other thing you have to think about, and I
Speaker 1: thought about while reading this thing with respect to a
Speaker 1: change of venue. Okay, he grants a change of venue,
Speaker 1: but to where? I mean where in the state of Ohio,
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, where could a judge send it to
Speaker 1: where there was not all this pre trial publicity. I mean,
Speaker 1: as you well know that this is a case of
Speaker 1: immense public curiosity and people are going to read about
Speaker 1: it and watch things on TV and read the newspaper.
Speaker 1: It's just like, okay, we'll change the venue, but where
Speaker 1: and to what end. In addition to the venue challenge,
Speaker 1: An Flanagan says, a lot of potential tourists will simply
Speaker 1: not want to serve on this controversial trial. We see
Speaker 1: jors that don't want to be there. They're just uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: And so what happens Sometimes you'll see one juror say
Speaker 1: I can't be fair, and you try to question why
Speaker 1: they keep you fair, and they really don't have any reason.
Speaker 1: They're just saying they can't be fair, right just or that. Well,
Speaker 1: then two tours down the road will come up with
Speaker 1: the same thing. They learn how to get off of
Speaker 1: a journey Judge Patrick Dinklocker, famous for trying the first
Speaker 1: woman in Hamilton County for the death penalty, lays out
Speaker 1: another potential scenario of jury contamination. Okay, you said you
Speaker 1: saw the newspaper, what did you actually read? Did you
Speaker 1: see it on social media? Did you talk to your
Speaker 1: friends about it? Did you text anybody about it? I
Speaker 1: think those are all relevant questions and questions that the
Speaker 1: attorneys will ask regarding, you know, whether or not they're
Speaker 1: going to be fair and impartial, because they can obviously
Speaker 1: say young fair and impartial. But if the lead up
Speaker 1: to that is they wrote on Facebook saying, Wow, this
Speaker 1: guy's guilty as can be, you know, and they Mittamy, well,
Speaker 1: then the judge is in a different situation. They've got
Speaker 1: this guy, Hume. If you can't get twelve people that
Speaker 1: can put upside all the social media all or whatever
Speaker 1: the publicity they've seen and whatever, and you're right, then
Speaker 1: you change the venue. And that's something that both sides
Speaker 1: will probably bring up. On May second, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: Judge Randy during Torpedo the defense's motion for a new venue,
Speaker 1: ruling that George the fourth trial would remain in Pike County.
Speaker 1: The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter
Speaker 1: Angeanette Leavey says will be a heated one. This is
Speaker 1: a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil
Speaker 1: War era. So the air conditioning is not great. So
Speaker 1: jury selection starting on July fifth? Could you get any hotter?
Speaker 1: I mean, could you kick any more uncomfortable time of
Speaker 1: the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and
Speaker 1: gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley?
Speaker 1: Could you pick up worse time to do this? No
Speaker 1: matter the weather, It's on Judge Randy Deering to oversee
Speaker 1: this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know
Speaker 1: about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law
Speaker 1: school at Ohio State and started practicing law back in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. Judge Deering took office in two thousand
Speaker 1: and five and was reelected in twenty ten and most
Speaker 1: recently in twenty sixteen. Interestingly enough, in May of twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: Judge Deering swore in Charles Reader as the forty first
Speaker 1: Pike County Sheriff. And Charles Reader is obviously very involved
Speaker 1: in this story. We called the county Clerk's office, who
Speaker 1: informed us that at seventy years old, Judge Deering is
Speaker 1: now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning
Speaker 1: that he can't run again. His time as judge will
Speaker 1: end in January or February of twenty twenty three. That
Speaker 1: being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing
Speaker 1: at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him a
Speaker 1: retired judge over the case or cases so that he
Speaker 1: could finish them out. The trial promises to be a
Speaker 1: long one. There are some three hundred and fifty witnesses.
Speaker 1: Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if
Speaker 1: the venue were forced to move. George, the Fourth Attorney,
Speaker 1: has press Judge during to release and seal a pre
Speaker 1: trial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified before
Speaker 1: the grand jury in twenty eighteen. The prosecution of counter
Speaker 1: that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled the defense
Speaker 1: is not entitled to that information. The list of witnesses
Speaker 1: is extensive, but Ann Flanagan points out that there are
Speaker 1: four suspects and eight victims. In a tangled case like this,
Speaker 1: with so many suspects witnesses at um, you have eight
Speaker 1: individuals chilled, and I don't know how many corners participated
Speaker 1: in the autopsies. I don't know if it was all one,
Speaker 1: if it was a number, but just right there, than
Speaker 1: you have a multiplied factor because all of those homicides
Speaker 1: are part of each one of these defendants cases. And
Speaker 1: then you have all of the analysts. You have a
Speaker 1: blood witnesses, you get the shoe print witnesses, you have custodians.
Speaker 1: Who's the custodian of the Walmart shoe department, I mean?
Speaker 1: And the receipt how did they get the bookkeeping records
Speaker 1: of the receipt and the video authentication from Walmart? So
Speaker 1: theoretically you could have three witnesses from Walmart just to say, yes,
Speaker 1: this is the receipt, we keep it in the ordinary
Speaker 1: course of business, and somebody who does the same thing
Speaker 1: for video, and somebody that handles the shoe department and
Speaker 1: can say, yes, we keep athletic work shoes or whatever.
Speaker 1: And a may hearing. As George the fourth defense team
Speaker 1: continued to hurl motions at the bench. George Wagner bearded
Speaker 1: and Balding began to look defeated. It's worth noting that
Speaker 1: the defendants do not appear in court and shackles. This
Speaker 1: is done so they can avoid the appearance of guilt.
Speaker 1: Billy and George, you know, all of them. Actually, anytime
Speaker 1: they've appeared in court, Pike County bought a stun best.
Speaker 1: It's like this thing that they wear under their clothes
Speaker 1: so that if they get out a line or try
Speaker 1: to escape, or they grab a pen and try to
Speaker 1: stab somebody or whatever. Literally, the deputies can push a
Speaker 1: button and it sends I think eighty thousand volts into
Speaker 1: their bodies. We have to remember that all this legal
Speaker 1: wrangling is particularly intense because George Wagner is facing the
Speaker 1: death penalty. As a reminder, Jake Wagner's pleadale takes the
Speaker 1: death sentence off the table for him and his family members,
Speaker 1: but only if he testifies to the satisfaction of the prosecution.
Speaker 1: The jury must carefully consider the possibility that just because
Speaker 1: George is Jake's brother and Angela and Billy's son, it
Speaker 1: does not necessarily mean he pulled the trigger that night
Speaker 1: in April twenty sixteen, and if he didn't actually shoot anyone,
Speaker 1: should he faith lethal injection. Here's George Wagner's defense team.
Speaker 1: What is really important here is that the court talks
Speaker 1: about a basic premise of our criminal justice system is
Speaker 1: as follows, Our law punishes people for what they do
Speaker 1: and not who they are. And why is it important
Speaker 1: in this case? The reason it's important in this case
Speaker 1: is that the court is aware the state is arguing
Speaker 1: that George is part of a conspiracy and a criminal
Speaker 1: enterprise and participate in the aggravated murders and the other
Speaker 1: twenty two counts. And a large part of the state's argument,
Speaker 1: we anticipate, is he's a Wagner and this is how
Speaker 1: the Wagners operate there. Now, there certainly is a conspiracy charge,
Speaker 1: we understand that, and there's specific law with respect to conspiracy,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily apply to everything. So we think
Speaker 1: it's important that the court keep this basic premise of
Speaker 1: our justice system in mind and at the appropriate time
Speaker 1: and struck the jury concerning that. And the event of
Speaker 1: a guilty verdict for George Wagner, there's the possibility that
Speaker 1: the death penalty will still be on the table. Here's
Speaker 1: Ann Flanagan and Judge Dinker Locker to break down what
Speaker 1: happens next. And I gotta be careful with what I say,
Speaker 1: because you're supposed to treat the guy who breaks a
Speaker 1: window and goes into drug store the same as you
Speaker 1: do a death penalty person. But the practicality of it
Speaker 1: is that you know you're dealing with the most serious
Speaker 1: of cases. You know you have to do everything you
Speaker 1: can to try to get it right because there's a
Speaker 1: life on the line, and at least for some of us,
Speaker 1: life is very very very very important. At this point,
Speaker 1: we would say there would be two phases, and so
Speaker 1: the first phase is the liability or trying to determine
Speaker 1: did the state in fact prove that he was a
Speaker 1: complete sitter in these homicides as to George the fourth
Speaker 1: And then the second phase would be a weighing process
Speaker 1: for the jury. It's called a mitigation hearing. It is
Speaker 1: unique and that this is the one time where you
Speaker 1: have jurors essentially participate in the sentencing decisions. Typically, for
Speaker 1: all other crimes, the judge will make the decision on
Speaker 1: sentencing within the guidelines of our legislature. However, in the
Speaker 1: capital case, the jury will be part of a weighing process.
Speaker 1: They are still not sentencing, but they are going to
Speaker 1: give a recommendation to the judge. Should he have an
Speaker 1: opportunity at parole, should he have the highest number of
Speaker 1: years before that opportunity at parole comes up. Should he
Speaker 1: have no chance at parole just a life sentence, or
Speaker 1: should be in fact be exposed to execution that definitely. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: the jury can be swapped for a three judge panel
Speaker 1: the defending can they have a three judge panel. Then
Speaker 1: the three judge panel tries the case. Okay, they render
Speaker 1: a verdict this whether or not the person is guilty
Speaker 1: or not, and then they sentence okay, which you know,
Speaker 1: can be the death penalty, can be life without parole,
Speaker 1: life after twenty or thirty or whatever. The judges can
Speaker 1: do that, but most times it's a jury trial, so
Speaker 1: the trial is conducted in front of the jury because
Speaker 1: obviously you don't get to the death penalty phase until
Speaker 1: you make a determination. If the guy's guilty of what
Speaker 1: he's charged with, and for example, I mean he's charged
Speaker 1: with aggravated murder with what they call death specs, there
Speaker 1: are further hearings to be had before the defendant's fade
Speaker 1: is sealed. Eventually, the case may head to the highest
Speaker 1: court in the State of Ohio. But if the jury
Speaker 1: does go ahead and signs off and makes a recommendation
Speaker 1: that they believe the death penalty is appropriate, then it
Speaker 1: goes to the judge to make a decision. The judge
Speaker 1: has another hearing with the defendant participating, counsel participating. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of different things go into it. Then the
Speaker 1: judge makes a decision. If the judge says the death
Speaker 1: penalty is warranted in the case, then the judge signs
Speaker 1: off on that. The next step then is to go
Speaker 1: to the Ohio Supreme Court, and then the Ohio Supreme
Speaker 1: Court reviews the whole record, reviews everything they can review
Speaker 1: about the case. Whatever defense counsel brings up, it's something
Speaker 1: that they believe should be a reason to throw out
Speaker 1: the death penalty, or throughout the conviction, or throughout the
Speaker 1: whole case. At every phase, the onus is always on
Speaker 1: the honorable person on the bench to rule as fairly
Speaker 1: as possible. I think you truly, truly, truly have to
Speaker 1: want to be fair and treat everybody fairly. You truly
Speaker 1: have to seek justice. Everybody's got a different definition of justice.
Speaker 1: I understand that, But for me, you want to be
Speaker 1: able to walk off that bench and say to yourself,
Speaker 1: I did the best I could. I try to be
Speaker 1: fair to everybody. When I think about a really good judge,
Speaker 1: I think about somebody who is willing to put in
Speaker 1: the time to read everything there is to read, maybe
Speaker 1: most importantly, to listen to everything that's being presented. And
Speaker 1: I think probably paramount is to keep an open mind
Speaker 1: until the end of the case. Now that's a hard
Speaker 1: thing to do because everybody brings to the bench their
Speaker 1: own personal experiences. But it is just critically important that
Speaker 1: you don't come in there with your mind made up.
Speaker 1: You do a disservice to your oath if you do that.
Speaker 1: But an excellent judge needs a jury capable of looking
Speaker 1: at the case squarely. I think it's real important. And
Speaker 1: I've told over the years a number of attorneys that
Speaker 1: we're not here trying to get twelve people that are
Speaker 1: going to go for you, and we're not here for
Speaker 1: the other side getting twelve people. You guys are supposed
Speaker 1: to be working to get a fair and impartial jury.
Speaker 1: That's your job. Now that's easy for me to say.
Speaker 1: For the prosecution, for example, all it takes is one
Speaker 1: person is they've got one person that you know, isn't know.
Speaker 1: I really don't like the death penalty. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a good thing. I really don't want to do it.
Speaker 1: I mean that sounds like kind of a weak juror
Speaker 1: for the prosecution. I think you'd agree. Okay, so they
Speaker 1: maybe have to use a peremptory to get rid of
Speaker 1: that person. Let's stop here for another break. Oh. I'm
Speaker 1: Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends.
Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He choked and to the point she
Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
Speaker 1: to hey for his crime. He needed to be put
Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
Speaker 1: him right now, i'd spit on him. I would call
Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister,
Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
Speaker 1: listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Best Podcast
Speaker 1: Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well the Best
Speaker 1: podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and her partner Miranda may
Speaker 1: Day as they let the Wheel of Words determine the
Speaker 1: topic of that week's show. Every episode will spin a
Speaker 1: wheel of random words from things like animosity to something
Speaker 1: like zodiac and whatever it lands on, that's what we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about for around an hour. Think we
Speaker 1: can't do it, well, then you've never heard us talk.
Speaker 1: Each week, Raven and Miranda and celebrity guests like Demi Levado,
Speaker 1: Kiki Palmer, and Megan Trainer will spin the fateful wheel
Speaker 1: and then the conversation will begin. Also, we're gonna have
Speaker 1: a ton of amazing guests because you don't want to
Speaker 1: just hear us too all the time. Do yes, you do?
Speaker 1: And somehow We're going to start with something like spider
Speaker 1: and end with well, when was your last nervous breakdown?
Speaker 1: Listen to the Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app apples, podcasts or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Everybody, we know there are a ton of
Speaker 1: podcasts out there. Well, we have one we would love
Speaker 1: for you to check out. It is called The pen
Speaker 1: Pals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scoville. We
Speaker 1: are both stand up comedians where actors were writers, but
Speaker 1: now most of all, we are your pen pals. Every
Speaker 1: single episode we get two letters that we read from
Speaker 1: our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be about
Speaker 1: anything going on in their life, and sometimes we're also
Speaker 1: joined by guests like Will Ferrell. I'm gonna bring you
Speaker 1: up in front of the group. I'm gonna punch you
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Speaker 1: Podcast on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: and sirely your new pen pals. Daniel Van Kirk and
Speaker 1: Rory Scoboy. How Rude Tanta Rito's is the Full House
Speaker 1: rewatch podcast you've been waiting for. Each week, get together
Speaker 1: with iconic characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known
Speaker 1: as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team
Speaker 1: up to relive every episode of your favorite Friday night
Speaker 1: comfort show. We spent our entire childhoods on a little
Speaker 1: show called Full House, playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever
Speaker 1: the cameras weren't rolling, and now thirty five years later,
Speaker 1: it's our biggest adventure yet. Get ready for Jody and
Speaker 1: Andrea to tell all as they take an in depth
Speaker 1: book back at life in and around the Tanner Home
Speaker 1: from the very very beginning. So if you think you
Speaker 1: know everything there is to know about Full House, how Rude,
Speaker 1: We'll be reliving every moment with you, and we'll be
Speaker 1: joined by our Full House family, including all your favorites
Speaker 1: from one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the
Speaker 1: hidden treasures you may have missed within the show, and
Speaker 1: we'll take a trip down memory lane together. Listen to
Speaker 1: How Rude Tantartos on the iHeartRadio Appicable podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. As Judge Hendon points out, the
Speaker 1: whole legal procedure, while carefully architected to bring justice and
Speaker 1: closure to families, can do nothing to restore what's been lost.
Speaker 1: If there is a tragedy greater than the tragedy that
Speaker 1: unfolded in this case, it has to be the fact
Speaker 1: that this child is now without a mother and a
Speaker 1: father in a set of circumstances that some day shall
Speaker 1: be old enough to understand. It's tragic beyond description. Reflecting
Speaker 1: on her time as prosecutor, and Flannagan comments on the
Speaker 1: distinct feeling of loss in the courtroom. That's one of
Speaker 1: the things I don't miss, And I didn't know how
Speaker 1: much I didn't miss until I started reviewing all of this,
Speaker 1: and I thought, oh my gosh, it just springs back
Speaker 1: so much and how hard the attorneys for both sides
Speaker 1: are hooking to bring fair justice to their sides, but
Speaker 1: because they're good advocates and they do care. I think
Speaker 1: it's just a tremendously intense experience, and one can only
Speaker 1: imagine how it comes across to the families who are
Speaker 1: sitting there on the personal side of appearing about the
Speaker 1: loss of someone and not really interested in the technology
Speaker 1: behind shoeprints. Who are blood spatter or this or that.
Speaker 1: They just start feeling that someone they loved just gone.
Speaker 1: More on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes
Speaker 1: and Massacre, listen to our other hit series Crazy and Love.
Speaker 1: New episodes there every Tuesday wherever you get at your podcasts.
Speaker 1: For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced
Speaker 1: by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, Alan Wider and
Speaker 1: me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis,
Speaker 1: Music by Jared Aston. The Pikes and Massacre is a
Speaker 1: production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting
Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband.
Speaker 1: There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be
Speaker 1: eligible bachelors. One of them one of the spot there
Speaker 1: in bout on paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy a workout. He shouted to the point she
Speaker 1: went unconscious. I would call him and I would say,
Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcast or
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Speaker 1: be bringing you candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy
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