WEBVTT - Trial and Error 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.040 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.840 get your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast, 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.720 Thinking out Loud with Elvis Duran. I'll be bringing you 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.600 candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.120 from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.919 you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.319 or whatever else comes to mind. But all jacked up 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.520 because after being in this business for as long as 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:30.200 I have, I want to get to the bottom of 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.960 what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.600 Thinking out Loud on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.000 wherever you get your podcasts. So how does the half American, 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.520 half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans. There's absolutely no 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.240 journalism experience, right the biggest story of the eighties, That's 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.400 what journalista is all about. I'm a woman, wife beater 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.640 or T shirt, not wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.760 I got balls bigger than any man. Dan Rathie used 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.840 to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalist to 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.840 every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts or wherever 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:14.880 you get your podcasts. George Wagner the Fourth was trying 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.320 to keep a testimony of family members who have already 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:21.720 confessed out of his trial. His lawyers argued Tuesday that 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.079 his brother Jake and his mother Angela should not be 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:29.000 allowed to testify against him. Defense lawyer John Parker argued 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.760 that such an agreement violates due process. In the end 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:36.799 Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering ruled against the defense motion, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.440 meaning that both Jake and Angela can testify and that 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:48.320 their confessions can be used in court. Welcome to the 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:52.160 Pike and Massacre, a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:58.959 Season three, Episode six, Trial and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.399 a television producer. Are at kat Studios with Stephanie Lydecker 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.160 and Jeff Shane. We're breaking down the court proceedings against 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:08.960 the Wagners as they currently stand, as well as looking 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.760 into information on the courtroom players. The test is, can 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.040 you get twelve people from Pike County that can be 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.400 fair and impartial and give that mister Wagner, give the 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.200 state of Ohio fair trial. On January nineteenth, twenty twenty two, 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.120 George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion for a change of venue. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.840 They basically outline the reasons why they believe a fair 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.840 and impartial jury cannot be seated in Pike County. They 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.200 say they will be providing the court with evidence of 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:41.400 this just prejudicial negative pre trial publicity. I mean there 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.080 are people who are scared as Wagners too, So you 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.200 may find people who are like, I am not doing this. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.640 Death penalty cases are hard, and I think they're meant 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.000 to be hard, to be honest, because there's a lot 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.640 at stake in Ohio. Just knowing about it, or being present, 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.640 or driving the getaway car or being a part of 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.800 this conspiracy in Ohio, you're just as guilty, George. The 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.880 forst case is set to go to trial, and that 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.880 is even if they can find a jury in time, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:15.160 because in Ohio, when you're selecting a jury, you have 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.039 to pick a jury in the venue in which the 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:23.160 crime happened. As a reminder, at this point, the Wagner family, 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:28.360 one seemingly tight knit, are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.120 the first Domino to fall, pleading guilty to murdering five 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.760 of the a Rodents in exchange for testifying against his 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:38.919 family matriarch Angelo Wagner folded next, pleading guilty to conspiracy 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.960 to commit aggravated murder and other charges as part of 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:48.200 her plea deal. Here's reporter Anette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty. 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:53.080 She admitted to her role in the planning of these homicides, 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.039 and she could get out after serving thirty years. That's 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.960 not a given, but she's eligible for release after serving 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:05.400 thirty years. She admitted to basically helping plan all of 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.480 this and carry it out. That she did not go 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.800 to the scenes of the murders that night. That leaves 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.240 two remaining suspects, father Billy Wagner and his thirty year 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:22.040 old son George Wagner, both have pled not guilty and 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.359 are awaiting trials. In some of these hearings all of 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.719 four defendants. Each defendant was made an offer by the 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:36.640 state to cooperate, so Jake and Angela took that offer, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.520 and it appears that George the fourth and Billy did not. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:47.160 So that's kind of where we are right now. Antonette 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.680 theorizes that there's little chance for a plea deal for 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.359 George and his father at this stage, after four years 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:57.280 of steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.560 think the only incentive for either one of them to 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.720 plead would be to go to the state and say Okay, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.720 I'll plead guilty. Just take the death kind of the 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.680 off the table. I don't see why the state would 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.200 offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.720 other family members who are willing to testify against them. 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.160 Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.760 rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:28.640 is in a box, and he knows that. So there 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.760 would be no reason that the state, in my opinion, 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:36.760 would make any other offer to Billy or George. The 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.920 State of Ohio was represented by prousecuting Attorney Robert johnk 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.960 also by special prosecuting a Journey to Angela Kaneppa and JIW. 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.720 Kaneppa has been a special prosecutor on this case. From 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.679 the outset. We've heard a lot from a Jaw Kaneppa 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.240 in the courtroom this season, but didn't know much about her. 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.960 Here's former prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.680 well If. She seems very calm, and it's a nerve 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.279 racking experience because there's so much you have to stay 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.479 on top of, and it seems like they're depending on 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.760 her quite a bit. But she doesn't seem rattled by it. 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.040 She seems very self possessed and focused. And I think 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.680 in my mind when I've handled cases and I often 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.200 had children as victims or others, I know that I 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.800 am working fighting for that victim and for that family, 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.120 and that helps me put it aside any of my 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.080 own nervousness or edginess. Not that it won't be there, 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.160 but it helps me put it in the right place. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.920 So here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.000 special prosecutor. We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.560 Green State University. She also went to law school at 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.760 Ohio State. Started practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.240 worked for the Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.120 over twenty years before going to the Ohio Attorney General's 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:03.440 Office in twenty thirteen. In May of twenty twenty, she 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.559 raised eyebrows when she resigned from the Attorney General's office 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.920 with a one sentence letter that read, effective June twentieth, 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.800 twenty twenty, I hereby resign my position as Section Chiefs 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.640 within the Special Prosecution Section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office. 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.560 Now when asked for a comment about the sudden and 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.320 sort of kurt departure, a spokesperson for the office referred 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.080 the press back to Kneppa. That would, just to me 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.400 imply that they didn't want to deal with it, and 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.920 they were washing their hands clean of her and her 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:38.120 relationship with the office. That's interesting that she resigned mid trial. 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:39.880 You know, they were in the thick of it in 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.760 June of twenty twenty, and these trials were ongoing and 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.040 just really about to heat up. So for her to 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.280 to be heart and then come back as a special 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:52.760 prosecutor is interesting. I mean when it happened, people and 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.120 pikedon were like, are the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.080 Is this going away? It brought a lot of uncertainty 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.120 to the case, at least for the public. However, it 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.240 couldn't have been all bad blood because just a few 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.280 weeks after this resignation, Kneppa was brought back on the 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.120 case as a special prosecutor at the rate of sixty 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.120 five dollars an hour. That's actually around double the average 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.080 of a prosecutors salary in Ohio, who usually make around 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.560 thirty three dollars an hour, and to sort of add 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.360 perspective to that. You know, defense attorneys can make six 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.640 hundred dollars an hour, if not more sometimes so to 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.120 work for the state as an attorney, you're definitely not 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.880 in it for the money. Each Wagner trial was expected 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.240 to cost a million dollars for the state. That's actually 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.199 a bit lower than the national average, which is about 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.520 one point three million per case. In talking to a 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.840 lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike County particularly 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.800 are kind of frustrated and fed up with how long 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.160 these cases are taking because they feel that it's taxpayer 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.000 dollars that are being spent. You've got to keep in mind, though, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.959 this is for capital murder trials. At one point, those 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.240 do take time. The wheels of justice sometimes can move slowly, 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.880 and perhaps for good reason. Rob Junk is an important 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.440 figure in Pike County and plays a very large role 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.560 in the prosecution of the four Wagners. At age fifty five, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.800 Rob Junk has been practicing law since nineteen ninety one, 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.440 after completing his undergrad at Case Western Reserve University. He 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.760 also went to law school at Cincinnati College of Law. 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.120 He's been prosecuting attorney in Pike County since being elected 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.440 in nineteen ninety six, and most recently, he actually ran 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.079 to become the Pike County Commons Plea judge, an election 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.000 that he won, and he's due to actually take office 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.160 in twenty twenty three at some point. It's pretty unclear 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.719 at the moment how this shift in his position will 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.960 affect the Wagner cases, but as part of his campaign 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.920 he vowed to fairly and impartially enforce and apply the law. 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.599 So Aside from working the routing cases and winning elections, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.680 Junk is also involved in a pretty public feud with 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.000 former Pike County Ship of Charles Reader, who we all 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.200 know has come under some scrutiny for illegal activities that 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.080 he's partaken in. It all started in November twenty eighteen, 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.600 when there was an anonymous complaint filed against Reader, just 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:17.200 days before the Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.839 just does whatever he wants and no one ever calls 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.360 him on it. We are scared to death of him. 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.280 He is unstable and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.480 Junk asked Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.880 Reader fired back in a public and sunse deleted Facebook 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.120 post that read put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.640 else may stand up to you and your crooked as connections, 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.920 but I will so help me God. At one point, 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.240 reader wrote another post saying it's past time to clean 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:51.040 the junk out of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.720 on Facebook, surmising that the request to recuse himself from 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:59.840 investigations caused the outburst. He wrote again on Facebook, apparently 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.640 makes me a serpent hiding in the shadows because I 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.920 and my office are following the law. So these are 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:13.240 two publicly elected officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.600 big deal to have a very public dispute like this 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:21.200 between the prosecutor and also the sheriff, who was in 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.680 office when these murders happened and is currently doing time 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:29.080 for allegedly taking bribes. It could be seen as a 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:33.679 very messy feud being played out publicly. While George Wagner's 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.760 defense team staunchly defends his innocence, the prosecution's theory is 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:39.800 that George had his hand in the murders as much 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:45.520 as anyone else. Veteran Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.720 When you hear these people bolstering each other and actually 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:54.360 sharing ideas and dynamics. They're just as much a part 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.520 of all that ended up happening as the person who 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.360 actually pulled the trigger. And I know that, and I 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.680 think jurors know that, and people know that, But will 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.600 they really hold them accountable. We know that people in 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.520 a mob act differently than people individually. If people in 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.400 that mob step back and don't participate and step away 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.160 from it, it may not happen. And what a difference 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.240 that would have made in the lives of the Rodents. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.000 Jake and his testimony said his brother was at the 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.160 crime scene but didn't shoot anyone. Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves. 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.240 The information she's referencing is taken directly from Motion eighty. 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.400 Jake's own conduct and the murders has been corroborated by 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.400 his disclosure murder weapons. It is also true that the 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.440 truck allegedly used by Jake and Billy in the murders 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.160 has been recovered as a result of his proffer, but 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.199 Jake has stated clearly that George did not shoot new 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.000 One did not fire a shot was not supposed to 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.800 go with Jake and Billy on the murder spree and 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.120 only went as a last second to protect Jake from Billy, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.559 who was thought he might kill Jake at the end 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.240 of the series of accredated murders, presumably to get rid 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.160 of a witness. In the state of Ohio, planning and 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.280 executing a murder is still murder even if you don't 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.840 pull the trigger. There's also evidence that George bought the 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.320 truck used the night of the murder. George Wagner's child 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.520 has said for August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.880 child will be later this year, and as often happens 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.680 in murder trials, George's defense team has followed the flurry 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.200 of motions to suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:36.640 the prosecution's case. Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.080 motion to compel production of other acts evidence pursuant to 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.480 Evidence Rule four or four B, and then Defendish Numbers 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.320 seventy seven. Pre trial motions on both sides, especially in 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.080 a murder case, are routine. The presiding judge holds initial 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.480 hearings to see whether certain evidence should be allowed in 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.040 front of a jury, and in this case, where the 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.920 trial should even happen today my second twenty twenty two, 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.120 and this is like hearing. We'd have a hearing schedule 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.200 on motions today. The defendant was present in court because 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:14.960 those attorneys John Patrick Parker and Richard M. Nash. Here again, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.800 Stephanie and Jeff on what we know about George Wagner 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.320 the fourth defense team. According to our research, it's actually 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.600 not that common to have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.440 when you're being charged with a crime as severe as George's, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.680 having more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.960 in the sense that they have different areas of focus, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.240 or that they're able to work different hours and thus 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.000 get more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.800 Patrick Parker. He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.840 thirty three years and is based out of Cleveland. He 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:52.600 also attended Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.720 for George Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.360 local lawyer based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.080 are criminal traffic offenses as well as post conviction dealings. 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.120 At forty six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City, 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:12.360 and attended Cleveland State University for law school and has 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.720 been practicing law since two thousand and four. In our 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.960 research of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.479 previous client is also involved in this story. He represented 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.440 none other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:32.480 trafficking charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:37.120 represented George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.160 years ago. This means that the lawyer who is currently 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:44.920 defending George used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.240 It's a little complicated, but it speaks to how this 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.960 community is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.480 the way, even just seeing all of the players come 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:59.120 together because they're steeped in history. We're going to take 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:04.080 a break, will be back in a moment. Oh, I'm 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.520 Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.960 Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:15.040 of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:21.240 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.359 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.800 wasn't He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:35.040 went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.240 the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.480 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.200 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.520 to justice. I'll be honest with your FI saw him 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.600 right now, I'd spit on him. I would call him 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.240 and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.520 I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.800 listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:05.000 or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.840 People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.000 with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:15.600 To LA, people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.439 best calls like oh shoot leave. As someone born and 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.080 raised here, I can tell you there's much more to 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.320 LA than this. My name is James Kim, and I'm 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.439 the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, Call You 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:34.159 Feeling This. It's ten different stories about La and the 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.720 real people who make up this city. What did you 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.439 listen to my message? Who were just trying to get bought. 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.240 I think I was just freaking out because I'm scared 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.480 by connecting with each other. I'm going to be a father. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:54.840 Ye are you feeling? This? A fiction podcast mixtape about love. 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.159 Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:05.240 wherever you get your podcast. She's a Hollywood Western. She's 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.160 Jack Harrowac but in a nap dress with braids. She 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:14.480 is one of the most important American children's authors of 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.200 the twentieth century. She's the basis for as television show 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:22.159 still watched around the world. Somebody somewhere is watching a 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.720 Little as the Birth. She's been called a hero, a racist, 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.840 a feminist, and a propagandist. I think the harm is 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.760 too great because it's just one more thing that Native 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:38.200 children have to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.440 of the book series Little House on the Prairie. As 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.760 a kid, I idolized Laura, and last summer I went 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.720 on the road in search of the real Laura. We're 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:53.480 literally on the prairie. What I found was a complicated 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:58.840 person alongside the complicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:04.360 and this Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:09.800 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.359 Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.200 the best podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and her partner 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.440 Miranda may Day as they let the wheel of words 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.960 determine the topic of that week's show. Every episode will 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.000 spend a wheel of random words from things like animosity 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.639 to something like zodiac and whatever it lands on, that's 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.480 what we're going to talk about for around an hour. 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.880 Think we can do it? Well, then you've never heard 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.560 us talk. Each week, Raven and Miranda and celebrity guests 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.639 like Demi Levado, Kiki Palmer, and Megan Trainer will spend 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:48.080 the fateful wheel and then the conversation will begin. Also, 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.560 we're gonna have a ton of amazing guests because you 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:52.080 don't want to just hear us too all the time. 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.280 Do Yes, you do? And somehow We're going to start 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.000 with something like spider and end with well, when was 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:01.280 your last nervous breakdown? Listen to the Best Podcast Ever 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.560 with Raven and Miranda on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:14.840 or wherever you get your podcasts. Under federal rules, the 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.520 presiding Judge is termed quote the gatekeeper of what evidence 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:22.399 will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio Judge 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:27.040 Patrick tinkle Locker on the functions motion surf. You're cleaning 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.399 the slate so you can have a nice clean trial 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.400 when you're getting rid of all those things that Wait 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.400 a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.080 in this room. You file motion. You don't want to 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:39.800 bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:41.960 it's like you waited halfway through the trial, and there's 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.920 no sense. In enough and in simplest forms, these are 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.040 things that need to be taken care of so that 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:51.280 you can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.960 possession case, for example, the defense might ask the judge 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.520 to exclude drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.800 through the legal search of the defendant's house. In a 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.680 murder child such as this, emotion may seek to suppress 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:09.600 key witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often motions highlight issues 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:11.719 with the case that become the basis for an appeal 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.359 down the line. One woman concerned for the defense was 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.680 the issue of venue. George. The four child was originally 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.600 slated from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January his 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.600 attorney issued emotion to change the trial venue to a 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.560 different jurisdiction. Judges is obviously one of the highest profile 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.000 cases in the history of this community. There were news 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:37.160 conferences held by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:41.040 by different members of law enforcement updating the community on 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:43.920 the status of the investigation. Went on for two and 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.440 a half years, and this is subdue to great social 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:51.679 media discussion in the community. And it's our point of 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:53.960 view that a jury will not be able to be 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.639 selected here. That's fair to our client, given all of 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.680 this publicity, given all the notoriety of this case, we're 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.440 asking the court to change venue. In essence, the defense 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.399 argued that the murders were so widely followed locally that 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:12.119 Boidier the process of finding impartial jurors was impossible in 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.919 Pike County. We don't think the court can get a 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.000 fair jury, even though there are many people that probably 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.240 would give it their best effort. But we don't think 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.000 if people were being really honest with themselves and with 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.200 the court, that they're going to be able to say 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:28.800 that they would be able to put aside everything they 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:30.840 know about the case, whether it's true or not true, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:35.720 and give George a fair trial. Mike Allen is a 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.240 criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an illegal analyst for Fox 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.840 nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a crucial point about the 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.720 essential fairness of most jurors. It's a motion for change 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:51.680 of venue. Those motions are frequently filed in high profile cases. 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:58.159 They're frequently filed, but it's seldom granted. However, in this case, though, 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:02.280 because Pike County is such a small county and I 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.920 don't know how many registered voters they have, they might 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:09.720 have a problem seating a jury. But here's the thing, 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.640 and this is probably the most important part of this, 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:15.800 and I don't think a lot of people realize it. 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:20.119 If a potential juror who is under oath answers a 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:25.159 judge's question, can you divorce yourselves and block out of 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:29.639 your mind any pre trial publicity that you have heard 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:33.600