WEBVTT - S1 – INTERVIEW 4: Marilynne K. Roach 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.360 Today's interview is with historian Maryland k. Roach. She works 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:09.840 as a freelance writer, illustrator, researcher and presenter of talks 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.400 on historical subjects, and she's written for The Boston Globe, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.360 the New York Historical Genealogical Register, and the Lizzie Board 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.360 and Quarterly. She was a member of the Gallows Hill 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.320 project that verified the correct site of the hangings, a 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.520 discovery that was listed by Archaeology Magazine as one of 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.080 the world's ten most Important discoveries of two thousand seventeen. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.000 My producers Matt Frederick and Alex Williams had a chance 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.600 to sit down with Maryland this past summer and I 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.320 want to share that conversation with you today. So without 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.960 further delay, let's get on with the show. This is 0:00:46.040 --> 0:01:17.280 the Unobscured Interview series for season one. I'm Aaron Manky. 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:26.080 My name is Marilyn Roach, and I've been studying the 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.760 Salem Witch Trials and related material for what he is 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:35.760 now and there's still more things turning up that I 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.360 didn't know before, and more to write about the very 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.640 top Nowadays, when the word which is bandied about, there 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:46.440 are many different ideas and images that are conjured. And 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:53.120 when you were let's say sixteen, and you're in the colonies, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.320 the image of a witch is a specific thing. Can 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.600 you tell us about that? In six was a legal 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.720 definition of someone who had a familiar spirit, and it 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:06.960 was assumed you knew with them men, but they were 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.320 in cahoots with an evil spirit, a little demon or 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.519 imp and in order to do that, you're in at 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:19.840 some point been in contact with the devil, knowingly or unknowingly. Uh. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:25.359 Because it was understood by the ministers that humans did 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.600 not have the ability to perform magic. Therefore, if there 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.040 is magic being done, it's not being done by the person, 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.320 but by some spirit that they're in contact with. The 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:40.640 folklore would say that the good spirits will do that too, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.440 but the ministers would tell you the angels have better 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.920 things to do than that, So it has to be 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:52.720 an evil spirit and satans behind that. Some people did 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.440 practice a lot of folk magic, maybe more in England 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:01.400 because they weren't all Puritans. Well, they weren't all Purans hereies, uh, 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.080 they were white witch is a blessing. Witches so called 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.960 meaning they only did they did only the good magic. 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.640 But if you have the idea that the source of 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.720 it is really only pretending to do good for a 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.359 while until you're really thoroughly caught in the clutches. It's 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.920 not something you should be fooling around with. So where 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.720 does counter magic come into this, Well, that's part of folklore. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.840 It's something to repel the evil magic that comes at you. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:38.840 Theoretically allegedly. Uh, it's supposed to dispel it counteracted. Uh, 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.920 bounce it back to the person who is casting it 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.400 in the first place, which is what the witch cake 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.240 John was supposed to do. Can you tell me about 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.440 the witch cake? Yeah, it was English folklore and it 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.920 was suggested to Tichiba and John Indian by a neighbor, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:00.880 Mary Sibley, who's an englishwoman her parents were anyway, and 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.320 she's a member of the Church, I believe, so she's 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.360 considered herself considers herself a good Christian. But this this 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.200 current of folklore that's just common and this is you know, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.280 this is repelling evil magic, so it can't be harmful. 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.440 It was the idea, but it got the girls more worried, 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.280 so the outcome was not good. But the idea of 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:27.880 magical spell some part of the witches being is projected 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.000 out to hurt the victim. So if you take part 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:33.719 of the victim, and in this case it could be 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.240 a lack of him maybe, or in this case some 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:41.320 of the girls urine easily taken from them. You don't 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.039 have to cut off an ear like they might do 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:49.000 with livestock, but that is tortured, you might say, by 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:53.480 being baked into a little rough cake of the cheapest 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.680 flower you've got, and you feed it to the dog 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.360 once it's cooked, and the dog crunches it up and 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.919 digests it, and that would should hurt the witch, because 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.760 the part of the perpetrator that's in the urine, that's 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.960 in the charm is being acted on, and the pain, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.839 I guess is supposed to bounce back to whoever sent it. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.719 But that would make them come around and say what's 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:24.400 going on, or begging for relief. Well, that doesn't happen, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.760 but the girls get more upset because now, as far 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.880 as I can see it, now the adults are really 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.400 assuming they could be magic here, which the doctors already said. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.800 The physician go to the medical professional and one of 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:43.880 them thought it might be bewitchment. So the adults are 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:48.640 taking that seriously Interestingly, the Paris Is didn't immediately go 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.520 to that as a solution to the girls symptoms, whatever 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.080 they were. It is very interesting that the physicians are 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.960 the ones who end up diagnosing some form of witchcraft 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.039 taking place. Well, the fact that the assumed fact that 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.279 magic was a possibility was just there on the culture 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.599 and in the other cultures. It wasn't just a pure thing. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:18.040 It was England, Europe and Africa, the Native Americans everywhere really, 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:24.520 But because of the trials and intentions of the times, economy, 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.599 war and all that, people were on edge to begin with, 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:31.359 along with the local corals. So it seemed like the 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:37.840 last straw. They are under siege by real, actual in 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:43.400 this world problems, and this seems like one more thing 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.040 that could happen. So two of your works that we're 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.640 really looking into, the Day by Day Chronicle and Six 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:55.040 Women of Salem. Um, we really want to focus first 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.320 on these six women. So maybe you can give me 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.599 kind of like a pair of graph or two in 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.200 your mind, just how you would describe each of these 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.120 women as a way to baby set them up in 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.159 the show later. So is it okay if I go 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:10.600 down the list and you just okay, So let's start 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.840 with Bridget Bishop. Bridget Bishop was married, so she's not 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.920 alone in the world. This is her third husband. She's 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:23.800 been suspected before, however, of witchcraft, but she has survived that. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.720 That's not as much paperwork on it as you'd like surviving. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.520 She was confrontational. Some of the neighbors thought, I'd say 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.840 she stuck up for herself. She's this is her third husband. 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:36.840 The second husband would hit her now and then, but 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.440 she hit him back. How about Marry English. Marry English 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.600 was the richest woman in Salem. Her father had been 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.800 a merchant who was lost at sea, and she married 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.960 his business partner, of Philip English, who was from the 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.720 Isle of Jersey and had more of a French culture. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.680 His name was Philippe Languis something like that and mispronouncing. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.720 So they're very rich. Some people, at least according to descendants, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.800 thought she put on airs. But you know, class and 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:09.880 status and the responsibilities of class were bigger in the 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.520 big in those days, not like now. But she was 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.720 accused even though she was a full member of the 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:22.680 Salem church in town. Let's continue with Rebecca Nurse. Rebecca 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.080 Nurse was older than middle age. She had a large 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.800 family of grown children with grandchildren, so it's an extant 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.040 family that's not a lot of death in infancy in 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.680 her family. Her husband is still alive, so she's not 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:40.680 a widow. Pretty much on her own. She has a 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.640 good support network, and she's a full member of the 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.920 Salem Town Church. She seems to be well respected, but 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.440 she's accused and some people just didn't get along with her. 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.280 I guess I think a lot of personality conflicts in this. 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.440 But even though she had a family who rallied around 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.880 her all through it, even though it might have been 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.319 dangerous to speak up at times, she doesn't survive. And 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:12.120 and Putnam uh and Putnam is an accuser. She's married 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:17.520 to Thomas Putnam, who also helps to choose people, and 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.960 their eldest child is and Jr. Who is one of 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.640 the afflicted girls. Near the beginning, she seems to have 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:30.040 not liked Rebecca Nurse. She's quite I think she's self 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:34.080 convinced that there are witches after her. Rebecca Nurse and 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.280 Martha Corey seemed to be particular problems with her, and 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.360 she actually has convulsions too in the courtroom in the 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.400 early stages. But she's also expecting like her sixth or 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.400 eight child, so they could have been some physical symptoms 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.400 that within misinterpreted, but she seems to be quite convinced 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:59.880 of the neighbors guilt. How about Titchuba called Titchuba Indian, 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.840 she's always referred to by her contemporaries as an Indian 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:09.480 rather than an African. She belongs with her husband to 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:15.559 Reverend Samuel Paris. She's from somewhere else presumable, presumably Barbados, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.760 where Paris had been a merchant before becoming a minister 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.920 and moving to New England. So she's accused early on 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.000 she makes the witch cake at the direction of a 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:31.960 neighbor with an English bit of folk laurel. There's probably 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.240 worldwide equivalence of this, but that's the only magic she 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.160 can really be connected to. But because she's enslaved, she 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.640 has even less of a support group than anybody else, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.520 and she's more or less bullied into agreeing with what 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.320 the magistrates are saying. Even though she's trying to say 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.840 she's a victim of witches. They convinced she's one of them, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.640 and at that point she'll say anything I think to survive. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.560 It's all she has really to protect her and she 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:04.720 will outlive the panic because they're reserving her as a 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.480 witness against the others. Although I don't think she does 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.520 have to speak in cook because plenty of other people 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.360 were doing that. And finally, Mary Warren. Mary Warren is 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.640 about seventeen and nineteen, a hired girl. She's working for 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:24.200 the John and Elizabeth Proctor family. Uh apparently her mother 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:29.920 and her mother died fairly recently. It might have been smallpox. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.800 They mentioned a fever and they had been smallpox, and 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.960 her little sister went deaf from it but survived. It's 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:41.760 not certain which Warren her father was, because there's like 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:43.839 three or four families in the area and they're all 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.600 paily obscue. But she has a lot to say during 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:54.480 the trials, and she thinks at first she's afflicted or 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:59.360 acts that way. When her her employer, Master Proctors out 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:03.360 of town, she she's having fits and accuses people and 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.120 acts in court as a witness. And when he comes home, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.560 he he, he whips her a bit, which one could 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.840 do within reason to a servant. It's called correcting them, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.760 and she changes her mind. But when she changes her mind, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.359 she's accused of selling out by the other still afflicted witnesses, 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.880 and after that she'll say anything to survive. So we 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.400 really want to talk about how the different social strata 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.280 of the women where they existed in those places, how 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.480 it affected the way they were treated once once the 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.200 trials started to come around, and they're all involved in 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.040 the trials in different ways. Um, but how did the 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.800 social strata really affect them all? Well, your place in 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.800 society was a lot more rigid then than now. Some 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.840 people did go up in the world, and of course 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.280 there'd be some resentment from people who hadn't. Uh, there's 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:02.440 a quote somewhere about you. You you're excuse me. You 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.520 may be Mrs so and so now, but you only 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.040 good wife somebody before this the only one obviously not 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:14.000 taking it. Well. Ah, let's see, some of the upper 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:19.720 crust people who were named were the those accusations tended 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:24.120 to be dismissed by some of the magistrates who knew 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.720 the people and do that they would never do that, 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.880 which of course they hadn't, but it did help. On 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.360 the other hand, just being well off wasn't enough, because 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:38.160 Merry English was certainly arrested. Also, some of the really 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.360 poor ones like Sarah Good she was had come down 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.400 in the world actually, and she was cranky because of it, 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:50.240 and crankiness didn't help. But then I got the impression 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.600 from what's recorded that Rebecca Nurse was polite enough all 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.560 through and didn't help her. Let's talk about the Putnam's 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.480 relationship to the Proctors and anything about the towns like 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:07.720 those three groups that the extended Town family had wood 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.800 lots in Topsfield where they lived, and the extended Putnam 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.240 family had wood lots in the same area, but there 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:20.200 were different surveys involved and boundary lines that were not accurate, 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.840 which wasn't exactly their fault, but each one was going 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.600 to keep the one that was more beneficial to them. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.560 So there were some court cases where they'd been fights 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.480 on near fights in the woods when guys went out 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:37.400 to collect firewood or timber. I think the whole town 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:42.800 of tops Fields border was contended by Salem Village because 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.040 of those boundary disputes, So there was some bad feeling there. 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.240 A lot of it probably just didn't get written down. 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.880 People who just rubbed each other the wrong way. There's 0:14:54.880 --> 0:15:00.720 a lot of documentation surviving, but not enough, not when 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.040 you're a fanatic about it. How did the Putnam's like 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.160 really figure into that, because the Putnams are the ones 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.680 who are having the dispute a lot of the times. Yes, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:18.480 well as it's a big family um and Thomas Putnam, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.120 his and his wife and his daughter are some of 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.640 the major accuses they're willing to suspect. I guess at 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.640 least any put a lot of people in the neighborhood. 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.840 And also he wrote a very good hand, clear hand, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.680 so that he took a lot of the notes and depositions, 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:39.080 so he was quite busy with it is a civic duty, 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:44.359 and he did not want to just blend into the background. 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.600 He wanted to be a civic leader, I believe, and 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:52.720 this was unfortunately his big chance. So it seemed to 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.680 be very important to prove whether or not the girls 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.120 were actually possessed in some way, or if they were 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.640 under the spell or or under the influence of a witch. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.720 Why was that so important? I suppose if you were 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.880 possessed by demons, it could be involuntary, but you could 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.320 be collaborating with them too, and then that would make 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.240 you an effect at which but if you're just a 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.760 poor victim of somebody else, some of the humans malice, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:26.680 although their pet demons is supposedly causing the pains the 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.520 Iowa victim, or are you collaborating? Was the question, what 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.160 was it about the convulsions themselves that made everyone just 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.360 so feel so uneasy? Well, a convulsion is a scary 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:42.240 thing to say. Um, Let's see Reverend Hale at one 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.240 point and in the book he wrote later, he said, 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.520 it was beyond the power of epilepsy what they were 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.920 going through, and they must have seen epileptic seizures, and 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.400 certainly there seemed to be a lot of fevers when 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.960 they got too high. People with convults, and they knew 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.560 what that meant. But there was something really different about this, 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.760 or more extreme. Prior to this and prior to the 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:10.240 Goodwin case somewhat earlier convulsions. I don't think we're common 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.920 as a symptom. It would be the cow died, of 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.960 the cow went dry, and the livestock died, all sorts 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.840 of misfortunes. But it wasn't so much that people seemed 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.679 to be repelling an attack of an invisible entity. So 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.280 this was not what which trials were not an everyday 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:37.160 occurrence even then, but it was the convulsions were particularly 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:44.040 distressing part of this although why they were believed and 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.440 not again Hales to paraphrase and me said, you had 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.720 to be there. It was just really they had well 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.520 it kind of least a wife, perhaps these younger women 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.960 at least early on, why their stories were believed over adults. Yeah, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.480 because sure, and young women and older women, depending who's 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:09.800 asking the questions, that their testimony didn't carry as much 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.840 weight in the judges minds necessarily, although women did speak 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.360 in court as witnesses, but you know, a child's testimony, 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.520 do they know what they're talking about? But there must 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.159 have been just something about it that does not translate 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.080 in the notes, even when they're pretty seemed to be 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.960 pretty slorough And I mean you read the questions and 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.440 answers for the hearings. They're not the trial questions. It's 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.760 the hearing that leads up to it. And it's like 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.639 something with the sound turned off. You're not really hearing 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:48.520 somebody screaming in agony or protesting or the audience reacting. 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:55.919 It sounds not conducive to clear thinking. We mentioned Sarah 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:01.919 Good I think earlier, and Sarah Osborne, women of that standing, Well, 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.280 how do you think they were treated by they're they're 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.439 the people who lived around them. Well, as I said, 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.520 Sarah Goodhead come down in the world, that she came 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.439 from a better off family, but stepfather kind of got 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.920 things that should have come to the children. And she's 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:23.520 married to an impecunious person who then dies and leaves 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.520 her in debt, and she marries second husband who is 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.480 no great provider at all, and she's begging from time 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.600 to time for her children. So this she could be 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.360 kind of annoying that Sarah gould come around again wanting something, 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.800 and the fact that she's she feels this keenly and 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:48.439 is cranky, not really not a humble person, so she 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.879 can get on people's nerves. Perhaps coming down in the 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:57.360 world might seem like you're you're just not trying hot enough. 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.840 Although how hot can a woman try and actually gets 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.560 the thing in those days? Economically, how many opportunities are there? 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.080 Or if I don't know, it's some punishment from God, 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.679 which is rather unfit to put on God. But you 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.800 know then it's not orthodox necessarily what the neighbors might wonder. 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.560 Sarah Osborne was well, she had she and her husband 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.560 had a farm. But the first husband dies and she 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:32.840 marries the bond servant, and the farm should have gone 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:35.760 to the sons when they came of age, and she 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.480 still has rights to live there at least while she's 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.399 a widow. But now she's married and there's a second 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.320 husband and he's kind of taking over the running of things, 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.760 and the sons cannot get the farm now that they're 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.119 of age away from him, so there's a lot of 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.199 hard feelings with that, And the Putnams were related to 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:58.320 the first husband. So that kind of explains a few things. 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:01.000 You know, for the offit of our listeners, it might 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:02.760 be good to just go over the basics of like 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:07.679 what the rights of women were in seventeenth century New England. Well, 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.600 they did say about class the better so at the 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.080 team around and said the better sort at middling saw 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.720 it and the lower sort. And how people were addressed 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.720 is reflected in this Mr and Mrs His master and mistress. 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.080 They obviously employed people people like Rebecca nurse. In the 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.920 middle it would be good wife nurse, hence good eat nurse. 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:31.040 It's not a nickname. It's like mrs only abbreviated good 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.560 man and good wife, and then people below that are 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.199 just addressed by their first name, the way people address 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:44.119 each other. Now. Uh yeah. Someone was asked how she 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.800 had addressed Sarah good oh her spect. She said, well, 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:50.679 I guess I just called her Sarah. She didn't have 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.040 to be good wife Sarah because they didn't own anything. 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:58.600 And below that, she's at least free. She's married. Uh. 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:02.159 This servants who contracted for a length of time, and 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.399 then there's people who are owned in slavery and can 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:10.080 be bought and sold. Unfortunately, slaveries legal in Massachusetts, although 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.600 there's not a lot of them. They are around Indians 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:20.240 and Africans. But women they did have rights. Uh. Some 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:23.160 of them brought court chases, some sued for divorce, which 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.120 was very difficult in England. I don't I think the 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.800 only way you could get a real divorce was to 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.680 go through parliament. So that's just the upper Escalon. And 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.960 I don't think they could remarry legally. I'm not certain 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:40.280 at this time. But in Massachusetts the Puritans, you could 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:42.680 get a divorce and remarry and it would all be legal. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:45.760 Children would be legal, inheritances would be legal. And there 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:50.200 were women who sued their husbands and got divorces didn't 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:55.000 happen every day, but they did. But Uh a married woman, 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:03.440 not just among Puritans but in England too, were uh 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:07.800 covered by their husband. He was the head of the household, 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:12.160 He was the spokesman. He was supposed to be running things, 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.720 so that she technically did not own anything unless she 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:20.119 was a widow who had had a good prenuptial contract. 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.520 And some of the hostel exist. But if you don't 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.400 own anything, not a lot to contract, which is why 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.840 when they were confiscations for like jail dads and stuff. 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.639 Uh Dorcas Hare who was a widow at the time, 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.600 they took some of her furniture and the cow and 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:41.800 so on, because she owed money. But when bridget Bishop 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:47.960 was arrested and she hangs no, they didn't confiscate anything 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.560 because she didn't own anything. Her husband did, even though 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.560 she had owned a few things before she was married. 0:23:54.600 --> 0:24:01.320 Now was absorbed into his. But they they could speak 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:06.879 up and and they could most m perhaps most importantly 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:12.320 to them women like men, was supposed to search your 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:14.400 soul to see if you was saved where you were 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:18.560 They of joining the church and having communion and access 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:22.200 to baptism and so on, and that was a personal journey. 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:30.760 So that they would be members of the church equal 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:35.280 before God. Couldn't vote but in church matters, but they 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:40.600 sometimes made their feelings, made their feelings known. But yeah, 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:46.160 but at least before God you were equal. So let's 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.320 jump to power power within the society, because I feel 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:54.520 like all this is very much connected. Um. The power 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:59.240 seemed to find its roots in faith, even though you 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.639 mentioned these these are not all Puritans who are that 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:06.360 we're talking about. However, that Puritan faith, in that Puritan 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:12.880 power structure kind of had its hold over everything. When 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:16.239 people emigrated early on, like the sixteen thirties, a lot 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:18.800 of people coming in. Most of them are coming over 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.760 for faith reasons. But they soon became evident that they 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:28.359 didn't all believe the same thing exactly. So in order 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:33.520 to vote, which is men it uh you was supposed 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.560 to they was supposed to be members fully communing members 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:39.760 of one of the churches, which they're all separate entities. 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:45.159 There isn't like bishops or anything to should that. You know, 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:48.440 these are upstanding citizens and they're not going to rob 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:53.320 you or something like that. But of eventually all the 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:59.399 people moved in uh Quakers and locals who converted to 0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:07.040 Quaker him. Also the Church of England families, um, the 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:10.240 men who are merchants, who a lot of them who 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:14.040 came in later were Church of England. And of course 0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:17.919 there is back in England as the Civil Wars going on, 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:22.359 and the Puritans predominate during the Commonwealth period when there's 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:26.040 no king. Oh there are other groups when the king 0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:29.920 returns with Charles the Second comes back and the monarchy 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.960 is re established. The Church of England is definitely a 0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:40.960 Biscopalian at this point and in England not nonconformists. Is 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:45.000 all of the different sects of Puritanism are called, are 0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:50.000 excluded from the university degrees, couldn't run for parliament and 0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:55.960 so forth, and so Massachusetts tried to pretend that they 0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:58.200 just couldn't find the paperwork to get rid of the 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:03.040 chatter and all that. But I actually they had to allow, 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:08.359 they had to not allow the requirement that you be 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:12.600 a church member in order to vote. But England changes 0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:15.560 it so you have to own a certain amount of property. 0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:19.880 So theoretically some for a church members maybe don't vote 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.439 anymore on the local level. If you're going to choose 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:28.080