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Speaker 1: Today's interview is with historian Maryland k. Roach. She works

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Speaker 1: as a freelance writer, illustrator, researcher and presenter of talks

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Speaker 1: on historical subjects, and she's written for The Boston Globe,

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Speaker 1: the New York Historical Genealogical Register, and the Lizzie Board

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Speaker 1: and Quarterly. She was a member of the Gallows Hill

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Speaker 1: project that verified the correct site of the hangings, a

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Speaker 1: discovery that was listed by Archaeology Magazine as one of

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Speaker 1: the world's ten most Important discoveries of two thousand seventeen.

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Speaker 1: My producers Matt Frederick and Alex Williams had a chance

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Speaker 1: to sit down with Maryland this past summer and I

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Speaker 1: want to share that conversation with you today. So without

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Speaker 1: further delay, let's get on with the show. This is

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Speaker 1: the Unobscured Interview series for season one. I'm Aaron Manky.

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Speaker 1: My name is Marilyn Roach, and I've been studying the

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Speaker 1: Salem Witch Trials and related material for what he is

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Speaker 1: now and there's still more things turning up that I

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Speaker 1: didn't know before, and more to write about the very

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Speaker 1: top Nowadays, when the word which is bandied about, there

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Speaker 1: are many different ideas and images that are conjured. And

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Speaker 1: when you were let's say sixteen, and you're in the colonies,

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Speaker 1: the image of a witch is a specific thing. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us about that? In six was a legal

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Speaker 1: definition of someone who had a familiar spirit, and it

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Speaker 1: was assumed you knew with them men, but they were

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Speaker 1: in cahoots with an evil spirit, a little demon or

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Speaker 1: imp and in order to do that, you're in at

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Speaker 1: some point been in contact with the devil, knowingly or unknowingly. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Because it was understood by the ministers that humans did

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Speaker 1: not have the ability to perform magic. Therefore, if there

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Speaker 1: is magic being done, it's not being done by the person,

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Speaker 1: but by some spirit that they're in contact with. The

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Speaker 1: folklore would say that the good spirits will do that too,

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Speaker 1: but the ministers would tell you the angels have better

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Speaker 1: things to do than that, So it has to be

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Speaker 1: an evil spirit and satans behind that. Some people did

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Speaker 1: practice a lot of folk magic, maybe more in England

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Speaker 1: because they weren't all Puritans. Well, they weren't all Purans hereies, uh,

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Speaker 1: they were white witch is a blessing. Witches so called

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Speaker 1: meaning they only did they did only the good magic.

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Speaker 1: But if you have the idea that the source of

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Speaker 1: it is really only pretending to do good for a

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Speaker 1: while until you're really thoroughly caught in the clutches. It's

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Speaker 1: not something you should be fooling around with. So where

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Speaker 1: does counter magic come into this, Well, that's part of folklore.

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Speaker 1: It's something to repel the evil magic that comes at you.

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Speaker 1: Theoretically allegedly. Uh, it's supposed to dispel it counteracted. Uh,

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Speaker 1: bounce it back to the person who is casting it

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Speaker 1: in the first place, which is what the witch cake

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Speaker 1: John was supposed to do. Can you tell me about

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Speaker 1: the witch cake? Yeah, it was English folklore and it

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Speaker 1: was suggested to Tichiba and John Indian by a neighbor,

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Speaker 1: Mary Sibley, who's an englishwoman her parents were anyway, and

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Speaker 1: she's a member of the Church, I believe, so she's

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Speaker 1: considered herself considers herself a good Christian. But this this

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Speaker 1: current of folklore that's just common and this is you know,

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Speaker 1: this is repelling evil magic, so it can't be harmful.

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Speaker 1: It was the idea, but it got the girls more worried,

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Speaker 1: so the outcome was not good. But the idea of

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Speaker 1: magical spell some part of the witches being is projected

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Speaker 1: out to hurt the victim. So if you take part

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Speaker 1: of the victim, and in this case it could be

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Speaker 1: a lack of him maybe, or in this case some

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Speaker 1: of the girls urine easily taken from them. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to cut off an ear like they might do

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Speaker 1: with livestock, but that is tortured, you might say, by

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Speaker 1: being baked into a little rough cake of the cheapest

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Speaker 1: flower you've got, and you feed it to the dog

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Speaker 1: once it's cooked, and the dog crunches it up and

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Speaker 1: digests it, and that would should hurt the witch, because

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Speaker 1: the part of the perpetrator that's in the urine, that's

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Speaker 1: in the charm is being acted on, and the pain,

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Speaker 1: I guess is supposed to bounce back to whoever sent it.

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Speaker 1: But that would make them come around and say what's

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Speaker 1: going on, or begging for relief. Well, that doesn't happen,

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Speaker 1: but the girls get more upset because now, as far

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Speaker 1: as I can see it, now the adults are really

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Speaker 1: assuming they could be magic here, which the doctors already said.

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Speaker 1: The physician go to the medical professional and one of

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Speaker 1: them thought it might be bewitchment. So the adults are

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Speaker 1: taking that seriously Interestingly, the Paris Is didn't immediately go

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Speaker 1: to that as a solution to the girls symptoms, whatever

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Speaker 1: they were. It is very interesting that the physicians are

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Speaker 1: the ones who end up diagnosing some form of witchcraft

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Speaker 1: taking place. Well, the fact that the assumed fact that

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Speaker 1: magic was a possibility was just there on the culture

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Speaker 1: and in the other cultures. It wasn't just a pure thing.

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Speaker 1: It was England, Europe and Africa, the Native Americans everywhere really,

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Speaker 1: But because of the trials and intentions of the times, economy,

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Speaker 1: war and all that, people were on edge to begin with,

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Speaker 1: along with the local corals. So it seemed like the

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Speaker 1: last straw. They are under siege by real, actual in

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Speaker 1: this world problems, and this seems like one more thing

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Speaker 1: that could happen. So two of your works that we're

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Speaker 1: really looking into, the Day by Day Chronicle and Six

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Speaker 1: Women of Salem. Um, we really want to focus first

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Speaker 1: on these six women. So maybe you can give me

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Speaker 1: kind of like a pair of graph or two in

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Speaker 1: your mind, just how you would describe each of these

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Speaker 1: women as a way to baby set them up in

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Speaker 1: the show later. So is it okay if I go

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Speaker 1: down the list and you just okay, So let's start

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Speaker 1: with Bridget Bishop. Bridget Bishop was married, so she's not

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Speaker 1: alone in the world. This is her third husband. She's

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Speaker 1: been suspected before, however, of witchcraft, but she has survived that.

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Speaker 1: That's not as much paperwork on it as you'd like surviving.

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Speaker 1: She was confrontational. Some of the neighbors thought, I'd say

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Speaker 1: she stuck up for herself. She's this is her third husband.

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Speaker 1: The second husband would hit her now and then, but

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Speaker 1: she hit him back. How about Marry English. Marry English

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Speaker 1: was the richest woman in Salem. Her father had been

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Speaker 1: a merchant who was lost at sea, and she married

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Speaker 1: his business partner, of Philip English, who was from the

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Speaker 1: Isle of Jersey and had more of a French culture.

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Speaker 1: His name was Philippe Languis something like that and mispronouncing.

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Speaker 1: So they're very rich. Some people, at least according to descendants,

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Speaker 1: thought she put on airs. But you know, class and

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Speaker 1: status and the responsibilities of class were bigger in the

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Speaker 1: big in those days, not like now. But she was

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Speaker 1: accused even though she was a full member of the

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Speaker 1: Salem church in town. Let's continue with Rebecca Nurse. Rebecca

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Speaker 1: Nurse was older than middle age. She had a large

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Speaker 1: family of grown children with grandchildren, so it's an extant

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Speaker 1: family that's not a lot of death in infancy in

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Speaker 1: her family. Her husband is still alive, so she's not

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Speaker 1: a widow. Pretty much on her own. She has a

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Speaker 1: good support network, and she's a full member of the

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Speaker 1: Salem Town Church. She seems to be well respected, but

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Speaker 1: she's accused and some people just didn't get along with her.

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Speaker 1: I guess I think a lot of personality conflicts in this.

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Speaker 1: But even though she had a family who rallied around

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Speaker 1: her all through it, even though it might have been

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Speaker 1: dangerous to speak up at times, she doesn't survive. And

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Speaker 1: and Putnam uh and Putnam is an accuser. She's married

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Speaker 1: to Thomas Putnam, who also helps to choose people, and

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Speaker 1: their eldest child is and Jr. Who is one of

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Speaker 1: the afflicted girls. Near the beginning, she seems to have

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Speaker 1: not liked Rebecca Nurse. She's quite I think she's self

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Speaker 1: convinced that there are witches after her. Rebecca Nurse and

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Speaker 1: Martha Corey seemed to be particular problems with her, and

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Speaker 1: she actually has convulsions too in the courtroom in the

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Speaker 1: early stages. But she's also expecting like her sixth or

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Speaker 1: eight child, so they could have been some physical symptoms

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Speaker 1: that within misinterpreted, but she seems to be quite convinced

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Speaker 1: of the neighbors guilt. How about Titchuba called Titchuba Indian,

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Speaker 1: she's always referred to by her contemporaries as an Indian

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Speaker 1: rather than an African. She belongs with her husband to

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Speaker 1: Reverend Samuel Paris. She's from somewhere else presumable, presumably Barbados,

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Speaker 1: where Paris had been a merchant before becoming a minister

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Speaker 1: and moving to New England. So she's accused early on

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Speaker 1: she makes the witch cake at the direction of a

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Speaker 1: neighbor with an English bit of folk laurel. There's probably

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Speaker 1: worldwide equivalence of this, but that's the only magic she

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Speaker 1: can really be connected to. But because she's enslaved, she

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Speaker 1: has even less of a support group than anybody else,

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Speaker 1: and she's more or less bullied into agreeing with what

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Speaker 1: the magistrates are saying. Even though she's trying to say

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Speaker 1: she's a victim of witches. They convinced she's one of them,

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Speaker 1: and at that point she'll say anything I think to survive.

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Speaker 1: It's all she has really to protect her and she

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Speaker 1: will outlive the panic because they're reserving her as a

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Speaker 1: witness against the others. Although I don't think she does

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Speaker 1: have to speak in cook because plenty of other people

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Speaker 1: were doing that. And finally, Mary Warren. Mary Warren is

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Speaker 1: about seventeen and nineteen, a hired girl. She's working for

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Speaker 1: the John and Elizabeth Proctor family. Uh apparently her mother

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Speaker 1: and her mother died fairly recently. It might have been smallpox.

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Speaker 1: They mentioned a fever and they had been smallpox, and

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Speaker 1: her little sister went deaf from it but survived. It's

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Speaker 1: not certain which Warren her father was, because there's like

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Speaker 1: three or four families in the area and they're all

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Speaker 1: paily obscue. But she has a lot to say during

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Speaker 1: the trials, and she thinks at first she's afflicted or

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Speaker 1: acts that way. When her her employer, Master Proctors out

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Speaker 1: of town, she she's having fits and accuses people and

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Speaker 1: acts in court as a witness. And when he comes home,

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Speaker 1: he he, he whips her a bit, which one could

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Speaker 1: do within reason to a servant. It's called correcting them,

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Speaker 1: and she changes her mind. But when she changes her mind,

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Speaker 1: she's accused of selling out by the other still afflicted witnesses,

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Speaker 1: and after that she'll say anything to survive. So we

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Speaker 1: really want to talk about how the different social strata

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Speaker 1: of the women where they existed in those places, how

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Speaker 1: it affected the way they were treated once once the

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Speaker 1: trials started to come around, and they're all involved in

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Speaker 1: the trials in different ways. Um, but how did the

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Speaker 1: social strata really affect them all? Well, your place in

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Speaker 1: society was a lot more rigid then than now. Some

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Speaker 1: people did go up in the world, and of course

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Speaker 1: there'd be some resentment from people who hadn't. Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: a quote somewhere about you. You you're excuse me. You

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Speaker 1: may be Mrs so and so now, but you only

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Speaker 1: good wife somebody before this the only one obviously not

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Speaker 1: taking it. Well. Ah, let's see, some of the upper

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Speaker 1: crust people who were named were the those accusations tended

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Speaker 1: to be dismissed by some of the magistrates who knew

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Speaker 1: the people and do that they would never do that,

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Speaker 1: which of course they hadn't, but it did help. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, just being well off wasn't enough, because

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Speaker 1: Merry English was certainly arrested. Also, some of the really

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Speaker 1: poor ones like Sarah Good she was had come down

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Speaker 1: in the world actually, and she was cranky because of it,

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Speaker 1: and crankiness didn't help. But then I got the impression

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Speaker 1: from what's recorded that Rebecca Nurse was polite enough all

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Speaker 1: through and didn't help her. Let's talk about the Putnam's

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Speaker 1: relationship to the Proctors and anything about the towns like

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Speaker 1: those three groups that the extended Town family had wood

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Speaker 1: lots in Topsfield where they lived, and the extended Putnam

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Speaker 1: family had wood lots in the same area, but there

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Speaker 1: were different surveys involved and boundary lines that were not accurate,

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Speaker 1: which wasn't exactly their fault, but each one was going

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Speaker 1: to keep the one that was more beneficial to them.

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Speaker 1: So there were some court cases where they'd been fights

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Speaker 1: on near fights in the woods when guys went out

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Speaker 1: to collect firewood or timber. I think the whole town

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Speaker 1: of tops Fields border was contended by Salem Village because

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Speaker 1: of those boundary disputes, So there was some bad feeling there.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it probably just didn't get written down.

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Speaker 1: People who just rubbed each other the wrong way. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of documentation surviving, but not enough, not when

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Speaker 1: you're a fanatic about it. How did the Putnam's like

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Speaker 1: really figure into that, because the Putnams are the ones

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Speaker 1: who are having the dispute a lot of the times. Yes,

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Speaker 1: well as it's a big family um and Thomas Putnam,

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Speaker 1: his and his wife and his daughter are some of

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Speaker 1: the major accuses they're willing to suspect. I guess at

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Speaker 1: least any put a lot of people in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: And also he wrote a very good hand, clear hand,

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Speaker 1: so that he took a lot of the notes and depositions,

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Speaker 1: so he was quite busy with it is a civic duty,

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Speaker 1: and he did not want to just blend into the background.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to be a civic leader, I believe, and

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Speaker 1: this was unfortunately his big chance. So it seemed to

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Speaker 1: be very important to prove whether or not the girls

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Speaker 1: were actually possessed in some way, or if they were

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Speaker 1: under the spell or or under the influence of a witch.

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Speaker 1: Why was that so important? I suppose if you were

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Speaker 1: possessed by demons, it could be involuntary, but you could

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Speaker 1: be collaborating with them too, and then that would make

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Speaker 1: you an effect at which but if you're just a

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Speaker 1: poor victim of somebody else, some of the humans malice,

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Speaker 1: although their pet demons is supposedly causing the pains the

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Speaker 1: Iowa victim, or are you collaborating? Was the question, what

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Speaker 1: was it about the convulsions themselves that made everyone just

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Speaker 1: so feel so uneasy? Well, a convulsion is a scary

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Speaker 1: thing to say. Um, Let's see Reverend Hale at one

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Speaker 1: point and in the book he wrote later, he said,

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Speaker 1: it was beyond the power of epilepsy what they were

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Speaker 1: going through, and they must have seen epileptic seizures, and

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Speaker 1: certainly there seemed to be a lot of fevers when

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Speaker 1: they got too high. People with convults, and they knew

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Speaker 1: what that meant. But there was something really different about this,

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Speaker 1: or more extreme. Prior to this and prior to the

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Speaker 1: Goodwin case somewhat earlier convulsions. I don't think we're common

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Speaker 1: as a symptom. It would be the cow died, of

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Speaker 1: the cow went dry, and the livestock died, all sorts

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Speaker 1: of misfortunes. But it wasn't so much that people seemed

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Speaker 1: to be repelling an attack of an invisible entity. So

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Speaker 1: this was not what which trials were not an everyday

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Speaker 1: occurrence even then, but it was the convulsions were particularly

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Speaker 1: distressing part of this although why they were believed and

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Speaker 1: not again Hales to paraphrase and me said, you had

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Speaker 1: to be there. It was just really they had well

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Speaker 1: it kind of least a wife, perhaps these younger women

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Speaker 1: at least early on, why their stories were believed over adults. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because sure, and young women and older women, depending who's

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Speaker 1: asking the questions, that their testimony didn't carry as much

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Speaker 1: weight in the judges minds necessarily, although women did speak

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Speaker 1: in court as witnesses, but you know, a child's testimony,

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Speaker 1: do they know what they're talking about? But there must

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Speaker 1: have been just something about it that does not translate

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Speaker 1: in the notes, even when they're pretty seemed to be

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Speaker 1: pretty slorough And I mean you read the questions and

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Speaker 1: answers for the hearings. They're not the trial questions. It's

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Speaker 1: the hearing that leads up to it. And it's like

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Speaker 1: something with the sound turned off. You're not really hearing

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Speaker 1: somebody screaming in agony or protesting or the audience reacting.

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Speaker 1: It sounds not conducive to clear thinking. We mentioned Sarah

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Speaker 1: Good I think earlier, and Sarah Osborne, women of that standing, Well,

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Speaker 1: how do you think they were treated by they're they're

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Speaker 1: the people who lived around them. Well, as I said,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Goodhead come down in the world, that she came

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Speaker 1: from a better off family, but stepfather kind of got

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Speaker 1: things that should have come to the children. And she's

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Speaker 1: married to an impecunious person who then dies and leaves

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Speaker 1: her in debt, and she marries second husband who is

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Speaker 1: no great provider at all, and she's begging from time

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Speaker 1: to time for her children. So this she could be

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Speaker 1: kind of annoying that Sarah gould come around again wanting something,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that she's she feels this keenly and

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Speaker 1: is cranky, not really not a humble person, so she

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Speaker 1: can get on people's nerves. Perhaps coming down in the

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Speaker 1: world might seem like you're you're just not trying hot enough.

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Speaker 1: Although how hot can a woman try and actually gets

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Speaker 1: the thing in those days? Economically, how many opportunities are there?

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Speaker 1: Or if I don't know, it's some punishment from God,

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Speaker 1: which is rather unfit to put on God. But you

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Speaker 1: know then it's not orthodox necessarily what the neighbors might wonder.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Osborne was well, she had she and her husband

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Speaker 1: had a farm. But the first husband dies and she

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Speaker 1: marries the bond servant, and the farm should have gone

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Speaker 1: to the sons when they came of age, and she

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Speaker 1: still has rights to live there at least while she's

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Speaker 1: a widow. But now she's married and there's a second

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Speaker 1: husband and he's kind of taking over the running of things,

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Speaker 1: and the sons cannot get the farm now that they're

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Speaker 1: of age away from him, so there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: hard feelings with that, And the Putnams were related to

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Speaker 1: the first husband. So that kind of explains a few things.

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Speaker 1: You know, for the offit of our listeners, it might

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Speaker 1: be good to just go over the basics of like

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Speaker 1: what the rights of women were in seventeenth century New England. Well,

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Speaker 1: they did say about class the better so at the

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Speaker 1: team around and said the better sort at middling saw

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Speaker 1: it and the lower sort. And how people were addressed

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Speaker 1: is reflected in this Mr and Mrs His master and mistress.

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Speaker 1: They obviously employed people people like Rebecca nurse. In the

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Speaker 1: middle it would be good wife nurse, hence good eat nurse.

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Speaker 1: It's not a nickname. It's like mrs only abbreviated good

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Speaker 1: man and good wife, and then people below that are

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Speaker 1: just addressed by their first name, the way people address

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Speaker 1: each other. Now. Uh yeah. Someone was asked how she

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Speaker 1: had addressed Sarah good oh her spect. She said, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I just called her Sarah. She didn't have

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Speaker 1: to be good wife Sarah because they didn't own anything.

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Speaker 1: And below that, she's at least free. She's married. Uh.

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Speaker 1: This servants who contracted for a length of time, and

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Speaker 1: then there's people who are owned in slavery and can

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Speaker 1: be bought and sold. Unfortunately, slaveries legal in Massachusetts, although

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of them. They are around Indians

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Speaker 1: and Africans. But women they did have rights. Uh. Some

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Speaker 1: of them brought court chases, some sued for divorce, which

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Speaker 1: was very difficult in England. I don't I think the

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Speaker 1: only way you could get a real divorce was to

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Speaker 1: go through parliament. So that's just the upper Escalon. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think they could remarry legally. I'm not certain

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Speaker 1: at this time. But in Massachusetts the Puritans, you could

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Speaker 1: get a divorce and remarry and it would all be legal.

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Speaker 1: Children would be legal, inheritances would be legal. And there

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Speaker 1: were women who sued their husbands and got divorces didn't

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Speaker 1: happen every day, but they did. But Uh a married woman,

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Speaker 1: not just among Puritans but in England too, were uh

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Speaker 1: covered by their husband. He was the head of the household,

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Speaker 1: He was the spokesman. He was supposed to be running things,

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Speaker 1: so that she technically did not own anything unless she

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Speaker 1: was a widow who had had a good prenuptial contract.

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Speaker 1: And some of the hostel exist. But if you don't

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Speaker 1: own anything, not a lot to contract, which is why

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Speaker 1: when they were confiscations for like jail dads and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Uh Dorcas Hare who was a widow at the time,

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Speaker 1: they took some of her furniture and the cow and

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Speaker 1: so on, because she owed money. But when bridget Bishop

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Speaker 1: was arrested and she hangs no, they didn't confiscate anything

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Speaker 1: because she didn't own anything. Her husband did, even though

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Speaker 1: she had owned a few things before she was married.

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Speaker 1: Now was absorbed into his. But they they could speak

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Speaker 1: up and and they could most m perhaps most importantly

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Speaker 1: to them women like men, was supposed to search your

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Speaker 1: soul to see if you was saved where you were

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Speaker 1: They of joining the church and having communion and access

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Speaker 1: to baptism and so on, and that was a personal journey.

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Speaker 1: So that they would be members of the church equal

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Speaker 1: before God. Couldn't vote but in church matters, but they

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Speaker 1: sometimes made their feelings, made their feelings known. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: but at least before God you were equal. So let's

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Speaker 1: jump to power power within the society, because I feel

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Speaker 1: like all this is very much connected. Um. The power

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Speaker 1: seemed to find its roots in faith, even though you

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Speaker 1: mentioned these these are not all Puritans who are that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. However, that Puritan faith, in that Puritan

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Speaker 1: power structure kind of had its hold over everything. When

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Speaker 1: people emigrated early on, like the sixteen thirties, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people coming in. Most of them are coming over

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Speaker 1: for faith reasons. But they soon became evident that they

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Speaker 1: didn't all believe the same thing exactly. So in order

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Speaker 1: to vote, which is men it uh you was supposed

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Speaker 1: to they was supposed to be members fully communing members

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Speaker 1: of one of the churches, which they're all separate entities.

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Speaker 1: There isn't like bishops or anything to should that. You know,

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Speaker 1: these are upstanding citizens and they're not going to rob

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Speaker 1: you or something like that. But of eventually all the

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Speaker 1: people moved in uh Quakers and locals who converted to

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Speaker 1: Quaker him. Also the Church of England families, um, the

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Speaker 1: men who are merchants, who a lot of them who

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Speaker 1: came in later were Church of England. And of course

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Speaker 1: there is back in England as the Civil Wars going on,

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Speaker 1: and the Puritans predominate during the Commonwealth period when there's

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Speaker 1: no king. Oh there are other groups when the king

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Speaker 1: returns with Charles the Second comes back and the monarchy

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Speaker 1: is re established. The Church of England is definitely a

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Speaker 1: Biscopalian at this point and in England not nonconformists. Is

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Speaker 1: all of the different sects of Puritanism are called, are

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Speaker 1: excluded from the university degrees, couldn't run for parliament and

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Speaker 1: so forth, and so Massachusetts tried to pretend that they

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Speaker 1: just couldn't find the paperwork to get rid of the

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Speaker 1: chatter and all that. But I actually they had to allow,

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Speaker 1: they had to not allow the requirement that you be

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Speaker 1: a church member in order to vote. But England changes

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Speaker 1: it so you have to own a certain amount of property.

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Speaker 1: So theoretically some for a church members maybe don't vote

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Speaker 1: anymore on the local level. If you're going to choose

401
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: the hall grief and the cow catcher in town and

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00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: the guide amend the roads. They may not care about that,

403
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: and selectmen, but the upper ranks of the government. You

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00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: had to have a certain amount of property. So are

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Speaker 1: you going to is it a religious requirement or a

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Speaker 1: financial requirement? Yeah? How connected are those two things? You know? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean there were biscopanions who had money too. So

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Speaker 1: let's let's pull back and talk about just citizens of

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Speaker 1: Essex County, people living in Essex County at the time,

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Speaker 1: right up into and then as the trials are occurring.

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Speaker 1: How are these trials that are happening. Let's just say

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Speaker 1: wherever the epicenter is, like around Salem. How is the

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Speaker 1: rest of Essex County being affected just in their daily

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Speaker 1: going about their lives. Well, when the panic started and

415
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: the law got into it, got involved in this, this

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Speaker 1: hearings and arrests. But it's Salem. Salem includes Salem Village,

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Speaker 1: which is the rural end of town. But the panic

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00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: is spreading and in the summer, and Over, which then

419
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: bordered it, uh began to have cases and there were

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Speaker 1: actually more people accused in and Over than in Salem.

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Speaker 1: So the panic spread. No people in Ipswich, in Gloucester

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Speaker 1: and in some of the Middlesex County towns, so that

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00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: they were jails in three counties involved in this, but

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Speaker 1: each of them on neighborhood quarrels, family quarrels. That's one

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Speaker 1: of the most fascinating things about this entire crisis is

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Speaker 1: that these are essentially neighborhood quarrels between neighbors, but there's

427
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: this spiritual aspect to them that that brings in this

428
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: the weight in the power of something other worldly. Um

429
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: the effects seem to be magic and that involves spirits

430
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: of one kind or another allegedly. Yeah, but simultaneously you

431
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: have nature bearing down on all of these humans because

432
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: as you're getting in closer and closer to winter at

433
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: the time, there's a real physical danger that's approaching as well.

434
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: The people in jail jails were not conducive to your health.

435
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: They apparently had fireplaces because bills for why it would,

436
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: but they're not meant to hold people for a long

437
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: length of time, and they're not supposed to hold a

438
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: lot of people. Once winter started to come down on

439
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: the temperatures getting colder, which happened earlier than it does now. Uh,

440
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: there were petitions, some of them from and over anyway,

441
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: asking if the suspects could be let out until spring,

442
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: we promise we'll bring them back when the trials resumed

443
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: next I a few people were let out on bail.

444
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: Some of the youngest ones even thought they'd been accusing people.

445
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: They went home, but I don't think many of the

446
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: older ones did. And some of the children that got arrested,

447
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: they did go home, but not all of them. And

448
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: that's one reason the trials resumed the following January. They're

449
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: waiting to hear from the crown. Should be are we

450
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: proceeding right? Should we do this? But it was just

451
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: he was too dangerous for the people in jail, and

452
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: just even if the temperature was good, it's not clean

453
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: with all those people in one place. How linked are

454
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: the concepts of sin and crime? Not every sin as

455
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: a crime, but all crimes involves some kind of sin. Uh,

456
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: drunkenness would be sinful, but if you're not. If a

457
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: guy is drunk but he doesn't waste the family substance,

458
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: beat the wife and the children, then it's not a crime,

459
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: but it's sinful. Why was confession such an important part

460
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: of the trials themselves? Well, any any capital conviction required

461
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: either two competent witnesses to the same act. That's what

462
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: spectral evidence gets tangled, or a credible confession from the accused,

463
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: and they were aware and they say, length, it's not

464
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: somebody whose mind is affected or there tortured into it

465
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: or anything like that. But the people who did confess,

466
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of people who did confess, uh,

467
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: some of them said afterwards that they really didn't know

468
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: what they had said, they were so terrified by what

469
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: was going on. One woman said she remembers a document

470
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: being read in the name of the king and the queen,

471
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: and after that she didn't know what happened. She just

472
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: couldn't remember. She blanked out, and others would probably they was.

473
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: It sounded like they was just agreeing to anything in

474
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: order to get on the good side of the magistrate

475
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: or or in the hopes that it would lengthen their life.

476
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: Because the people who were who had confessed and UH

477
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: were held as witnesses against the supposed collaborate atis, and

478
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: that delayed things so that not all of them, but

479
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: most of them survived because the panic died down until

480
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: spectral evidence, which is the report of what the demons

481
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: are doing, was no longer allowed in court. Describe some

482
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: of those I guess the evolution of criticisms against spectral evidence. Well,

483
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: at the very beginning, one of the judges who lived

484
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: in Boston consulted with his pastor's caught and Mather about

485
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: any information on how we should proceed, and matthe said,

486
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: to be very careful of spectral evidence. It really can't

487
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: be trusted. It's axiomatic. The devil is the prince of lies.

488
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: He's a lie. You can't believe anything that comes from

489
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: that direction, so you can't really believe it. And they

490
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: said they'd be careful, but they weren't careful. And I

491
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: think Matthew wasn't there at most of the trials. Just

492
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: assumed that they're older than I am. They they're wise

493
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: enough people. They probably know what they're doing, which they

494
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: didn't really because they were carried away by it all too.

495
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: It seems so real at the time, unfortunately, because the

496
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: convulsions in the courtroom seemed to be the crime being

497
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: committed right in front of everybody, and we can all

498
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: see the effects of it, but the cause of it

499
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: they could not see, and they had to depend on

500
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: the reports of the proposed afflicted, and even if the

501
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: afflicted people were quite convinced themselves, they can be deluded

502
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: by the devil, and that's their own philosophical outlook on it,

503
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: and they didn't pay enough attention to it. It's pointed

504
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: out on the very first day by Sarah Osborne that

505
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: the devil can take the shape of anybody, so why

506
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: not me? For some reason, it was said afterwards anyway,

507
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: it's for some reason Stoughton thought that you did have

508
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: to give the devil permission. Is if the Prince of

509
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: Lies is going to ask a permission. It really didn't

510
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: make sense. So he seemed to think he knew what

511
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: he was doing, and he was a very strong personality.

512
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: And I think that if some of the other judges

513
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: had second thoughts, they may be figet he knew what

514
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: he was talking about. Oh bo. After the first execution

515
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: of Bridget Bishop, one of the judges, Nathaniel Saltonstall, stepped out.

516
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: He just left speaking of um. Bridget Bishop wasn't the

517
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: first person to get arrested for these crds, but she

518
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: was the first person to be put on trial. Was

519
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: that Bridget Bishop had been suspected before of witchcraft sold

520
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: it was that against her. They maybe seemed more evidence

521
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: against her, or at least her reputation wasn't good in

522
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: that respect, although that's really other people's reactions than anything

523
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 1: she had actually done. She was sort of the usual suspect.

524
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: You might say, why was Titchuba's testimony in particular? Why

525
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: was it powerful? When she started describing things and to

526
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: fulfill the expectation of the questions, it was pretty vivid

527
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: story about this spirit and that spirit, and these otherwise

528
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: invisible entities, and some in the shape of birds, and

529
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: this hairy thing that was standing by the fire, warming

530
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: its hands or pinching the girls, and a bird with

531
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: a woman's head. It was pretty colorful. It's probably more

532
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: thorer than that than the notes indicated, because there's a

533
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: lot going on and they are using shorthand, but it's

534
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: still not an absolute transcription. So that was pretty vivid.

535
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: And she describes other which specters osborne and good, but

536
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: then others also, but she doesn't know who they were,

537
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: so people are left with wondering who are the others

538
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: and who do I not trust? Who might be a suspect,

539
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: And then it really blew out out of control, so

540
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: almost that known unknown that there are others out there,

541
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: we just don't know who they are. That's that's fascinating. Yeah,

542
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: But because they could be under attack from them next

543
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: the way, they could be under attack from the French

544
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: and Indian forces in the on the frontier and coming

545
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: closer to which was a very real threat later on

546
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: they get as close as and over. But yeah, it

547
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: seemed like it was all too likely to happen, even

548
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: something like just the wilderness, the wildlife that surrounded them,

549
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: because there were wolves around still, and there's a spectral

550
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 1: wolf presumably spectral wolf reported that chases the doctor's hired

551
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: girl and she has connected and fits soon after. But

552
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,959
Speaker 1: there were bounties on wolves, which I'm on the side

553
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: of the wolves now, but ah, but there were bounties

554
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: paid at least the year before, so I think they're

555
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: in the vicinity and it's winter, so yeah, that would

556
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: make people nervous too. Fear really is just one of

557
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: the most pervasive things. Fear is very powerful, and it

558
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: still is. And if you get to the point where

559
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: you're panicking, then you're not you're thinking even less clearly

560
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: than otherwise. What are the main separations between the role

561
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: of someone who's a servant and someone who is a slave, Well,

562
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: you don't sell the servant, it's uh. They're contracted for

563
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: a certain period of time, but a slave is enslaved

564
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: for life. There were cases of enterprising sea captains kidnapping

565
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: people on the coast of England and Ireland and bringing

566
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: them over his bond servants against their will. They had

567
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: a certain period of time to work out, and there

568
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: was a lawsuit by a couple and they might have

569
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: been brothers who had been kidnapped like that and thought

570
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: that they time should be up by now, so we

571
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: should be free. And they're saying that they masked, it

572
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: was a bit too hot and it wasn't gonna let

573
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: them go. I think they got out. So but even

574
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,479
Speaker 1: even though this was totally involuntary, there was a time

575
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: limit on it. The new Colonial Charter, what did they

576
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: promise to the colonists. The new Charter, which took years

577
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: to negotiate, made the the government legal. But one thing

578
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: that England says in it is that it cannot be

579
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: repugnant to any of the laws of England. The repugnancy clause.

580
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: It can't contradict English common law, which isn't written down,

581
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: but apparently there's ways of finding out what it is. Um.

582
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: Some parts of Massachusetts law did differ. I mm hmm,

583
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: like the divorce thing, but I'm not sure if they

584
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: even looked at that. What There were various agents of

585
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: the government prowling around making surely if there were violations

586
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: or not, but they seemed to be mostly interested in

587
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 1: import export taxes that were not being paid. They didn't

588
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: seem to mention the witchcraft problem at all until one

589
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: of them got beaten up in foot and jail and

590
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: even talk side dispute. And he didn't like being in

591
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: jail with a lot of commonist burglars, negroes and witches.

592
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: He said, so he did not really care what they

593
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: were doing with the witch trials. But um witchcraft was

594
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: illegal in both countries. And when Phipps suspended the trials

595
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: in the fall in October and asked for England's advice

596
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: when it came back, it said, just do what the

597
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: law allows and do your best. They didn't seem to

598
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: quibble over how it had gone. Speaking of Phipps and

599
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: ending Charles, what do we know about lady Mary Phipps.

600
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,919
Speaker 1: She was well educated, She's from Maine to I guess

601
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: her family was in Maine and in Massachusetts. It was

602
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: said that she taught her husband how to read on

603
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: a honeymoon or soon after. He but even though he

604
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: couldn't read, he was able to oversee building a ship

605
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: and keep all that in his head, so he had

606
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: a good memory anyway. But um, she was apparently, you know,

607
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: a force a forceful woman, and he was devoted to her,

608
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: listened to her. It said that she was accused, and

609
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: apparently the source is a good one that she was

610
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: at least named, that she had helped somebody get out

611
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: of jail, signed there a warrant to get them out.

612
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: I thought for a while that, you know, William Phipps

613
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: and Mary Phipps, William and Mary, the monarchs, that there

614
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: was some confusion there, or maybe they pretended there was

615
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: a confusion. But she may have done that because the

616
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: source is Thomas Hutchinson, the mid eighteenth century governor of

617
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: Massachusetts Road of History, and he said he was shown

618
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: a paper by somebody who had been a jailer and

619
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: got fired when they let them out unauthorized. But yeah,

620
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: she could have been named, but nothing was done about

621
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: it because at that point, Phipps decides this is not

622
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: going the right way and realizes what Sarah Osborne pointed

623
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: out the first day of the hearings. If somebody sees

624
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: a specter that looks like you, it doesn't mean it's you.

625
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: So that that tactic did seem to work. Paying if

626
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: you had the means paying to be released. Well, well,

627
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: not everybody thought that the trials proceeding the right way,

628
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: but we don't know exactly could have been. Just they

629
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: were bribable. It did help to have money, and if

630
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: you were wealthy enough, like Philip and Merry English, they

631
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: were put in the Boston jail. But then he had

632
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: enough money and put up a bond four thousand pounds,

633
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: which is huge. That they could then rent a room

634
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: in the jailer's house, which had better amenities. It was

635
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: a room rather than a common room with everybody in it,

636
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: so it was easy to escape from that too. I

637
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: think he could go. The story with them is that

638
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: they could go out get some exercise as long as

639
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: they paid for God to come with them. Let That

640
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: led to all sorts of possibilities, And there were people

641
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: who didn't like the way the trials are going, such

642
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: as Reverend Samuel Willard and Reverend I think Joshua Moody

643
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: who was in town, also from New Hampshire. Apparently the

644
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: family story with the English is is that they helped

645
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: arrange things for them and persuade them to escape. But

646
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: they did escape. They went to New York. I know

647
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: there are several people who had to remain in jail

648
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: even after their charges. Now, yes, how did it being

649
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: a debtor function within the trials when you had to

650
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 1: pay the phase, It's like two shillings sixpence a week,

651
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 1: I think, and that I've seen is what a woman,

652
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: if she was working full time is spinning and weaving,

653
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: could earn in a week. So that's that's sizeable amount

654
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: of money. Their families were supposed to come up with it,

655
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: and one woman who died of natural causes in jail,

656
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: the jailer wouldn't release the body to the Suns until

657
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: they paid her fees the rent, and then I guess

658
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: they did, but they complained about it later when there

659
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: were reparations. The family had to come up with it,

660
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: and I think that Jacob's family had to borrow money

661
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: in order to get the daughter out. And then the

662
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: person who loaned. It suit them the debt and she

663
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: was back. She didn't want to come back to jail again.

664
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: It was it was financial difficulty. Seventeen twelve, there was

665
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: some restitution and people applied to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts

666
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: saying this is what I spent and why, and some

667
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 1: of them were reimbursed. Philip English asked for a great deal,

668
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: but he was on good financial standing, so he didn't

669
00:45:54,280 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: get that much. But yeah, Massachusetts tried to make commends.

670
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: It didn't bring you didn't bring back your dead grandmother,

671
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: but it was something. But anyway, it gives us some

672
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: paperwork to know what people had to spend. They put

673
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,439
Speaker 1: in the expense of hiring a horse and going down

674
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: to Boston from Salem, which is a whole day's trip

675
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: to tend to their mother, or there aren't or somebody

676
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: bring them some fresh clothes and some decent food. I mean,

677
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: I guess you got bread and water, but it wasn't great.

678
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: And then they do that so many times in a week,

679
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: and that's that's a lot of time away from work.

680
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: The crops are growing, are not growing. And yes, it

681
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: was financially bad for Massachusetts as well as for the

682
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: individuals who was the final accused which to actually leave

683
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 1: the jail. It's hard to say. I really don't know

684
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: was Okay, was Chichiba at least within the sand which

685
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: Charles was, it was the last person because of some

686
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: of these she made. She was among the last, I

687
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: would say, because her she didn't come before the Jewies

688
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: Child Jewlies until the following May, and then they were

689
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: her fees. She'd been in jail a long time and

690
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: Samuel Paris did not want her back because that whole

691
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: episode is at this point very embarrassing and what if

692
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: she really is a which do I want her in

693
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: my house? So he wasn't going to pay it, and

694
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 1: they have sold her to somebody we don't know to

695
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: cover the fees. So she's back to being a slave

696
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: somewhere else and we don't know where, but apparently locally,

697
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: because it's mentioned that she was. She was not sold

698
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: out of the colony at that point. She just disappeared

699
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: from the records. What are the kinds of like primary source, like,

700
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: what's the kind of written stuff that you actually have

701
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: from from from this time? And one of the kinds

702
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: of things they write about. There's a lot we don't

703
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: know but there's a lot of documentation that has survived. Um,

704
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: there's warrants, the original compliance uh A minimus where someone's

705
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: being transferred from one jail to another, and they're not

706
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: for everybody. It's not a complete set for everyone who's accused,

707
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: but especially at the beginning, there's a lot of questions

708
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: and answers taken down during the initial hearing, not at

709
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: the trials, but at the hearings to see if there's

710
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: enough he had to whold someone for trial, and surprise,

711
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: knewly all of them were. But different people took notes

712
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: at different times, and some are more complete than others.

713
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: But you've got questions and answers, and you can see,

714
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: for example, was titue but where a couple of people

715
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: were taking notes on that first day, you can see

716
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: whether the question was Presumably John Hawthorne is already made

717
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: up his mind this has to be a guilty person,

718
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: so he's he's going to keep asking the question until

719
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: he gets an answer. And then she describes things. And

720
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: if you put the two together, and you get this

721
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: picture of all the devils in the passonage and what

722
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 1: they look like and who else is and the suspicions

723
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: and how somebody flew through the air and so on,

724
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: and those are extremely helpful. And then there are statements

725
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: by witnesses and accusers who say, on such and such

726
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: a date, I was afflicted and so on. That's painful,

727
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: and it's on a date, and maybe somebody else makes

728
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: a statement saying, yes, they saw them convulsing on such

729
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: and such a date. But then there's other depositions where

730
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: we had an argument with someone and then the cow

731
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 1: got sick. And then there's the confessions that some people did.

732
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: And they confes us that they sold themselves to the devil,

733
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: and how did he appear? And he always was came

734
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: as a black dog, or he looked like a man,

735
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: or he looked like a cold I think in one case,

736
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: and how and we and they described being re baptized

737
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: into the Devil's communion, and they're thrown into someone got

738
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: thrown into a stream. They're coming up with whatever whatever

739
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: comes through. They had someone's face was pushed in a

740
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: bucket of water, they said. Or they wrote out a

741
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: contract on a piece of birch back, or they were

742
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: illiterate and they put their thumb mark on something. That's

743
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: something they can get quite detailed, but you know, even

744
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 1: though it didn't happen, it's extremely interesting. Uh. And then

745
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: there are lists back in ninety three you do get

746
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: the names of some of the jurors. Unfortunately, most of

747
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: the jurors in sixteen ninety two we don't know who

748
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: they were because that paper were didn't survive. And later

749
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: on there are petitions saying this is what I went

750
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: through and I want my name cleared, and the petitions

751
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: for reimbursement later on, like seventeen twelve, after the reversal

752
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: of attainder, and the names have been cleared if they

753
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: got in the petitions, there were five. I think they

754
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 1: didn't get cleared until two thousand one on Halloween. They

755
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: weren't taking this seriously, but you know they're listing what

756
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: they lost, what was confiscated, the money they had to

757
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: spend to go visit a relative in jail, and so on.

758
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of detail and a lot of

759
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: those are online, which is very helpful. In the University

760
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: of Virginia's website. There was a commentary at the time.

761
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: Let's see that when the Panics started to wind down

762
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: in October, there were a couple of letters circulated not

763
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: in print at the time. There in print now uh

764
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: one was by one of the Brittles, criticizing the way

765
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: the trials had proceeded that too much spectral evidence. It

766
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: boils down to. There's some anecdotes in that, but mostly

767
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: it's an argument as to why this does not work

768
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: and increase Mata, who had negotiated the charter rights up

769
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: his views that he had had been discussed at a

770
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 1: meeting of area ministers. Cases of Conscience. It's a longer

771
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: title than that, as to why you cannot trust spectral evidences.

772
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: And there are some letters such as from Phips to

773
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: the Privy Council of the Crown, of various government officials

774
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 1: in England saying it's not I'm stopping it. It wasn't

775
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: my fault. I wasn't there. I was following your orders

776
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: to keep Mane safe. But we've stopped it now and

777
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't my fault. But let's see. So when the

778
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: trials start up again in January and so on, there's

779
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: some paperwork from that, a cup and in October the court,

780
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: I guess the government asked Corton rather to write a

781
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: summary of what had been going on, and he at

782
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: this point still assumes that they had been proceeding correctly

783
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 1: and maybe he's making two thinks he needs to make

784
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: more excuses for how things had gone. So it kind

785
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: of supports the view that they had proceeded as best

786
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: they could, and it did nothing for his reputation thereafter,

787
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 1: and it kind of ties him with that, even though

788
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 1: he did say at the beginning, you shouldn't really use

789
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: spectral evidence, and he had a lot of other good

790
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: things that he did, but that was a very unfortunate one.

791
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 1: All over, the book is a good source of what

792
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: people were saying and of the end views of the trials,

793
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: and there's some anecdotes in it that aren't in the

794
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: existing papers they did send the court. M m. Clerk

795
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: of the Court sent him some of the paperwork which

796
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: he got to see, and some of that might not

797
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: exist now, but that's what he was writing from and

798
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: making excuses for how the government had proceeded. Because another

799
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 1: thing is that the government is trying to establish itself

800
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: according to the new Charter, and they don't need so

801
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: much public unrest that they lose it again, or you know,

802
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: the populace does something to react against it. In England's

803
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: is or well, forget about self roll after this, so

804
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: he was trying to protect the reputation of the government

805
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: too much. As strange as it is, you can view

806
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: the Salem crisis as a pr nightmare for a group

807
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: of people. It was the Pio yes right. And and

808
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: because of that book, which was published in England and

809
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: in New England. Uh Robert calf who was a merchant,

810
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: and he had been a constable in Boston in that year,

811
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: so he might have been helping to arrest people. We

812
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: don't really know that. He was highly critical of the

813
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: trials at this point. He hadn't really said anything while

814
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: I was going on, but he wrote a book criticizing this,

815
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: criticizing the Mathers and the government, and that has a

816
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: lot a lot of really good source material because he

817
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 1: spoke to some of the families involved and and Prince.

818
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: Some of the paperwork that didn't get saved or it

819
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: was a receipt from the sheriffice to what God confiscated.

820
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: We know about it because it was in his book.

821
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: And then there was back and forth between the Maths

822
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 1: and ca and so debating how things had gone on.

823
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: But that is a source book. And later Reverend John Hale,

824
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: who had believed that it was witchcraft at first and

825
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: then did change his mind. He wrote a book later

826
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: as to how it seemed and how it is obviously

827
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: not a good idea to accept spectral evidence, although at

828
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: the time it seemed like such and such, and it

829
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: is anecdotes in there that that were very helpful, but

830
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: it wasn't published until after his death in but that's

831
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: a good source too. At the very top, we talked

832
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: about Rebecca Nurse. She had, like you said, a support

833
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: structure around her her family. Talk to me about what

834
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 1: made her family ready for this fight, because it wouldn't

835
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: have been it's not an easy thing to fight for

836
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: her name and for her innocence. Well, they just I'm

837
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: going to protect mother. The Nurse family got statements from neighbors.

838
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: They circulated a petition neighbors and lots of people signed it.

839
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't just them, so they people put their names

840
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: on it. And there was never any retaliation against any

841
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: of the people who did that, or the petitions for

842
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: the practice or for Mary Bradbury unhappy to say, and

843
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: they took that to the governor and other statements and

844
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: even a statement from I believe this was at this

845
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: point a statement from the jurors who misunderstood something she

846
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: said because she was originally got a not guilty verdict,

847
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: which scared the afflicted girls, either either because they expected

848
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: the devils to do something or because they did not

849
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: want to be not believed. But they screech and it

850
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: seems like they're being heard, and Stowton's sends the jury

851
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: out to reconsider, and they come back and ask her

852
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: about a certain statement she had made when she was

853
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: brought into the room. She why of the confessors had

854
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: come in, and she said, why is she here? She's

855
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: one of us? Did she mean one of us witches

856
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: or one of us accused, which is what she meant.

857
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: But she doesn't answer, and they figure, okay, she has

858
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: nothing to say in her defense, and they bring back

859
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: the guilty verdict and her the family tells her afterwards

860
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: what had happened, and she writes, so she signs a

861
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: statement that they wrote for her right or she wrote

862
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: it herself, saying that she thought they meant a fellow prisoner,

863
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: not a fellow which and all of this has presented

864
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: to the governor and they get a reprieve, and whereupon

865
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: there are even worse afflictions, and the reprieve is taken

866
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: away and she hangs. But they do try, and they

867
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: keep trying, and they they they never really I don't

868
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 1: know if they never forgive the accusers, but Paris and

869
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: the Putnam certainly thought that Rebecca was a witch at

870
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: the height of the panic there, and they are at

871
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: obvious odds for a long time thereafter, and they're part

872
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: of the faction that would like to get rid of

873
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: Paris and break that contract for all these reasons. You know,

874
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: you look at everything that's kind of swirling around the

875
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: village of Salem that's causing this to occur. In your books,

876
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: specifically in the Six Women, you're really focusing on these

877
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: women in their lives and getting a view from inside,

878
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: trying to know you you are and and why is

879
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: it important to focus on these specific women. Well, the

880
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: something biographical, trying to tell what it was like to

881
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: go through it, what it was like to live through

882
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: it as an accused or an accuser. It's I mean,

883
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: there are concepts and of what goes on in the

884
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: world and these great movements of history, but how does

885
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: it hit an individual depending and there are different parts

886
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: of society or different parts of the disaster that's going on.

887
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: I was trying to get into into their minds and

888
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: see it through their eyes. But you know, that's spent

889
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: three fifty years now, so I can only guess if

890
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: I've done it, But I tried. Do you see any

891
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: parallels in the lives of women in some people believed

892
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 1: easier than others, and some people aren't believed even when

893
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: they're telling the truth. There's there's a feeling that it

894
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: is very silly in some strange way, very silly that

895
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: anyone could believe that the belief in whiches was so

896
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: pervasive that human beings could get hurt and actually go

897
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: to court for these things there are nowadays. It's this

898
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 1: almost like why are they believed in which is? But

899
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: are are there things nowadays in contemporary times that could

900
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: be considered similar to a belief in something that is

901
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: just either not true or fantastic? Well, the idea of

902
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 1: which is or evil magic was not just the Puritans,

903
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: not just New England. It was general in the colonies

904
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: in Europe and in other cultures in North America, Africa, Asia,

905
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: all over. The fact that it could happen was just

906
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:56,959
Speaker 1: obvious to them. Uh. And if people are afraid enough,

907
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: they will have physical reaction, and people can be overreacting

908
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: to things nowadays that could happen, such as the it

909
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: was a Satanist scare where day care as centers was

910
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: supposedly being targeted. Will there are crimes against children that

911
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: are horrible and they can happen, but that doesn't mean

912
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: that they were happening in those cases, or even that

913
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: there were organizations of Satanists doing it, but they were,

914
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: but people reacted really strongly to it. Obviously, there are

915
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: toxic waste problems. They can poison people and big companies,

916
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: and industrial waste is a very real problem. But sometimes

917
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: there are physical reactions now that could logically be explained

918
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: that way, but there's no evidence there is any which

919
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: doesn't which means presumably that there isn't a problem with

920
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: toxic poisoning with those sufferers, But that doesn't mean that

921
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as toxic waste. So even if

922
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: you continue to believe that evil magic is possible, and

923
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: people do and other cultures in and this one, uh,

924
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: the point then and now is is that's what happening

925
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: here and now? Can you be certain don't panic yet,

926
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: try to figure out exactly what's going on. And if

927
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: they've done that, then without changing their views or world

928
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: or anything, it wouldn't have gotten so far. But the

929
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: panic really exploded, and nowadays it would explode over something

930
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 1: else and it wouldn't be just like the Salem problem.

931
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: So it doesn't have the Halloween spookiness to it and

932
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: it's not recognized. I love to have a sense of

933
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 1: what the life for Puritans living in Salem and in

934
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: Essex County was like aside from the witch trial. Well,

935
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: let's see most well, most of New England was a

936
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 1: grarian and it depended on how on the weather as

937
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: to how good the crops were from year to year.

938
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: Ninety two was a drought year, so that was another worry.

939
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,919
Speaker 1: In the center of Salem, down by the harbor pat

940
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: most of the people in the maritime trades and the

941
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 1: merchants who had far flung business associations up and down

942
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: to England and abroad depending I think Philip English had

943
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: connections as far as Russia. It's something about the fir Trate.

944
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: I think the maritime economy was threatened by the war

945
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: that was going on with Canada, which is border wars,

946
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: guerrilla raids, retaliations and so on. So there's pirates. There's pirates,

947
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: pirates who had robbed from anybody, private privateers licensed by

948
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: the French Canadian governments to prey on English shipping because

949
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 1: neither country has a navy. Navy New England licensed privateers

950
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 1: such as John Alden who would prey on French shipping.

951
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 1: If you go far enough out to see you could

952
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: be taken by barbary pirates and sold as a slave.

953
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 1: In northern Africa, there's, as I say, the war at

954
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 1: home frontier raids, and a lot of the people had

955
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: evacuated from some of the more remote main settlements and

956
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: come south safety's sake. A lot of the people in

957
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: the Salem area had some connection or other with Maine

958
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: and attacks there. Others people who were around were veterans

959
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: of the King Phillips War and had had fought with

960
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: the native peoples in southern New England. And some of

961
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 1: the people were on militia duty up in may Down

962
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: may excuse me, uh, protecting with the garrisons had experienced there.

963
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: Some had gone in the fleet to Canada in sixty nine,

964
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: I believe when New York and New England. We're going

965
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: to gang up on Canada. Make sure that wasn't a

966
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: military threat anymore. And it was small parks and storms

967
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 1: ruined that idea, and some prisons were exchanged, but it

968
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: made for a terrible debt in the treasury, so that's

969
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: a big problem. But farming, crops, trade, fishing, they were

970
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: all kind of at risk because of the weather and

971
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: the economy and the war. So there were a lot

972
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: of strains that way. But it's not a mechanical society.

973
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: It takes time to get from one place to another.

974
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was quicker to sail to

975
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: Boston from Salem, but it took the better part of

976
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: a day to get there by horseback, and you'd have

977
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: to cross a couple of ferry with fairies to get across.

978
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: Rivers will go way around the marshes. I mean, the

979
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 1: railroad goes right across it now, and the roads, but

980
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: you had to go around things and getting worried. They

981
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: seemed to communicate rather quicker than I would have thought.

982
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: With Maine, make me a couple of days to get

983
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: an answer, as too, have they burned down the garrison yet? Uh?

984
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: And sending a question to England, as Phipps did. Took months,

985
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: but besides the trip over by ship, it had to

986
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: go through channels with the Privy Council and then it

987
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: didn't come back until May, which was what you think

988
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:45,479
Speaker 1: is best. So yeah, and something mechanical would be a mill,

989
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: which would be quite high tech, I guess christ mill.

990
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: But they also had sawmills, especially in the Maine New

991
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: Hampshire area, where they'd be vertical saws going up and

992
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: down because the buzz saw hadn't been advantage it, and

993
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: that was high tech. But stuff is done by hand

994
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: and traveling is by foota by horseback of by boat.

995
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: How important was firewood? Oh? Very important? Yes, firewood would

996
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 1: be the main fuel, if not the only one. It

997
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: was important in this in the Witch trials because one

998
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: of the problems with the Minister Samuel Parris is that

999
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 1: the contract included firewood he's supply for heat cooking, and

1000
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 1: there was question as to whether it had been included.

1001
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 1: Did we really include the firewood or would did we

1002
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: give you something extra to cover the firewood? He doesn't

1003
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: have enough trees of his own. He used to buy it,

1004
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 1: and it's not deep docked impenetrable forests, is wood lots

1005
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: and fields more. I don't know if there's more trees

1006
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: now or then or then. But you don't just go

1007
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,040
Speaker 1: cutting down a tree because it either belongs to the

1008
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,679
Speaker 1: town or belongs to somebody else. So at one point

1009
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 1: he's really low on it and complaining about it. But

1010
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: that was just a bone of contention between the people

1011
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 1: who didn't support him and the people who did. But

1012
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 1: you did need it because the houses were not insulated.

1013
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: They might be had what they put bricks between the

1014
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: timber and the plaster, but that's not terribly warm. I

1015
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 1: think some houses were found to have eel grass or

1016
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 1: something in between the walls, and I don't not sure

1017
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 1: if that was later. But you had to be close

1018
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 1: to the fire. I mean, Cotton Meather lived in the

1019
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: city of Boston and had a good house. But he's

1020
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 1: riding in the winter and in the ink freezes in

1021
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: the inkwell, so it was a necessity. What was the

1022
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 1: function of the meeting house, Well, a meeting house is

1023
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: a pure and concept. It's and also the fact that

1024
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 1: they're out in the new Land where they have to

1025
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: build things from scratch in the first step, first generation,

1026
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,840
Speaker 1: A meeting house was an all purpose building. They would

1027
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 1: meet there for civil meeting, selectman, town meetings, but they

1028
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 1: would meet there for religious meetings also, because that was

1029
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 1: the main reason a lot most of them had come

1030
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: over in the first place. So it depends what time

1031
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: of the week it is as to what you're using

1032
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: it for. It's town owned because they're pretty much all

1033
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: the same belief system. As the population expanded in various

1034
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: places where they were maybe Baptists Quakers, they didn't want

1035
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 1: to have to support that, and in Salem there was

1036
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: a Quaker meeting house they had their own. At this

1037
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: point in Boston that the meeting houses were owned by

1038
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 1: their congregations, not by the town. There was three congregational

1039
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 1: congregations in town plus at this point an Anglican church,

1040
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: Quaker meeting house, and a Baptist church too, and I

1041
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: think a Huguenot one, and they're all owned by their

1042
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,799
Speaker 1: own people. So when the Royal Governor, Sir Edmond Andrews

1043
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 1: came and wanted a place for the Church of England

1044
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: people to worship, uh, they used the town house, which

1045
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 1: was a non meeting house, non religious meeting house, all

1046
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 1: civic meeting place and that kind of went against the

1047
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: grain for a lot of people who were Church of England,

1048
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: so he can commandeered one of the churches used it

1049
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: in the All South meeting House, used it in the

1050
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 1: morning and if they ran over, you just stood out

1051
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 1: in the rain and waited. That really got people's packs up.

1052
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 1: And then they built King's Chapel. But my point is

1053
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 1: the town did not. The town did not own the

1054
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,560
Speaker 1: meet the religious structures in Boston because it was a

1055
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 1: bigger population. The individual towns generally had one because why

1056
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: pay for two different buildings if the same people are

1057
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: going to be using them for the different purposes. Salem Village,

1058
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,799
Speaker 1: because of its geographic location, had their own meeting house finally,

1059
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 1: which took time to get permission for. And then there

1060
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: was the meeting house in the middle of Salem, and

1061
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 1: presumably geographically it was supported differently. But Salem was also

1062
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: big enough that they at this time had a town

1063
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 1: house that was up the street opposite where city Hall

1064
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 1: is now, where they had the selectment meetings and the

1065
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 1: town meetings, and the school Latin school was on the

1066
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 1: ground floor, the courtrooms upstairs. I sometimes wonder if anyone

1067
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: counting lessons done that summer, and they kept the firefighting

1068
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 1: equipment in the attic, which would make it rather hard

1069
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 1: to get to in case of ablaze. But it was real.

1070
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 1: But they also did occasionally to have ab civil meetings

1071
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: in the meeting house because it was bigger. In sixte to,

1072
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 1: one of the hearings is held there because some of

1073
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 1: the uh uh legislature is coming up to observe the

1074
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: crisis and they need a big space. But for the

1075
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 1: most part it was under repair. In ninety two, I

1076
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 1: guess they had religious services there, but they they had

1077
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 1: legal stuff going on in the town house up the street.

1078
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 1: What does school look like for an average kid growing

1079
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: up around that time, Well, it was a law after

1080
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: a while that he was supposed to teach your kids

1081
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 1: to read. More people. The literacy rate was good here

1082
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 1: in New England because it was seemed essential that you

1083
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 1: needed to read the Bible for yourself and see what

1084
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 1: it was and laws and stuff. More people could read

1085
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 1: than could write, because reading was taught separately, unlike together

1086
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,839
Speaker 1: with right as now it seems logical to teach them together.

1087
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: But people could read who could not write, and they

1088
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: would sign their name with an exit. Didn't mean they

1089
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 1: were totally illiterate because they also want to read those

1090
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 1: deeds and wills too. Uh that the reading could be

1091
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: done at home. Sometimes someone's mother would do it. One

1092
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: more women who could read. In some places, that would

1093
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: be a dame school. Dame being the equivalent of sir,

1094
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 1: which was what school masters would called because they had

1095
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,679
Speaker 1: a bachelor's degree and that was comparable to a night

1096
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 1: which would be called sir. It gets complicated, not that

1097
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 1: women had any degrees at all or could get into

1098
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 1: a higher university, but that's why they called dame schools.

1099
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: It was a more polite way to address people than

1100
01:14:52,200 --> 01:15:00,600
Speaker 1: like damied as Evans the actors. Who has the rank anyway? Ah,

1101
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 1: if a town had so many families in it, they

1102
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: were supposed to have a grammar school, which meant Latin grammar,

1103
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: which would be the boys learning Latin, maybe Greek. They

1104
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: might have already gone to a writing school. That's to

1105
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: prefer you for college. The Latin and the Greek sold that. Yeah,

1106
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,679
Speaker 1: I think it Deadham in the town records. I happened

1107
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 1: to be looking at Deadham. Uh. There was a question

1108
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: do we teach the girls too? But apparently they didn't

1109
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:41,760
Speaker 1: think they were going to invest in that m so

1110
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 1: they might learn reading and writing. If they're lucky, they

1111
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: learned some arithmetic too, to keep accounts. They were private

1112
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:54,640
Speaker 1: schools with a schoolmaster or somebody who would take on students.

1113
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 1: If they got the Latin and Greek the boys, then

1114
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 1: they could apply if they so inclined, to the college,

1115
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: which is Harvard. They tended to generally call it the college.

1116
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,800
Speaker 1: It's actually the only one in North America at the time,

1117
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 1: so they might as well, uh, and that would be

1118
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: They didn't want an ignorant ministry in the future because

1119
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 1: they were so far away from Oxford and Cambridge, and

1120
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 1: that's what it was mainly for, so that the light

1121
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 1: of learning would not go out. But not everybody was

1122
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 1: going to be a minister who went there. Some of

1123
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,719
Speaker 1: the merchants were well educated too, But some of the merchants,

1124
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 1: like Hawthorne, did not go to the college. But he

1125
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:44,439
Speaker 1: he'd read things, I guess tried to know what some

1126
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:49,760
Speaker 1: but his educational background was. It may be hard for

1127
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 1: some younger listeners hearing this to understand why women and girls,

1128
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: any females were not taught the same way that the

1129
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 1: males were. They may have a hard time understand that

1130
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 1: you just talked to us about why, what the roles were,

1131
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: and what the perception was. Well, women's work was mostly

1132
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 1: in the household, and it took up without mechanism. It

1133
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: took a long time to accomplish and keep a house

1134
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 1: running and clean. And they probably got a kitchen, garden,

1135
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:24,320
Speaker 1: and the cow and stuff, which is full time work.

1136
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 1: So they didn't need, supposedly to to know these other things.

1137
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,640
Speaker 1: The boys are probably most of them are farmers, and

1138
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 1: they're doing field work and taking care of other livestock

1139
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 1: and so on, so and not. Most people didn't need

1140
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 1: but they needed to be able to deal with deeds

1141
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 1: and wills or find someone reputable and write it down

1142
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: the way you wanted, so they may be needed more

1143
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,520
Speaker 1: of it being more out in the world. But literacy

1144
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: was important to them because they wanted to be able

1145
01:17:56,040 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 1: to read the Bible another other good books. So there

1146
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 1: was literacy, and certainly, uh there were some well educated

1147
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,479
Speaker 1: girls and women, but it would have been from home

1148
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: and learning outside of a regular school room, which was

1149
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:21,759
Speaker 1: aimed at boys and boys going to higher education to colleges.

1150
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: It was a long time before women could get into colleges.

1151
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: In the United States, and when I was in college

1152
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 1: habit was still a boys school. Briefly, if you could

1153
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,040
Speaker 1: describe what Puritan writing is like stylistically, because it is

1154
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: a very distinct style to me. Well, the books and

1155
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: the and the titles they did tended to have long

1156
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: titles or more a description of what the book was

1157
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,600
Speaker 1: going to be about, and depending on the addition, the

1158
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: printer would highlight parts of it more than others, so

1159
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,639
Speaker 1: it looks like it has a different title almost, But yeah, yeah,

1160
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 1: there would be long, sometimes flowery sentences. There were a

1161
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:58,640
Speaker 1: lot of biblical allusions which did give the references to

1162
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,760
Speaker 1: what chapter and verse they would talking about. People were

1163
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:05,599
Speaker 1: expected that they everybody knew what that meant or could

1164
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:10,160
Speaker 1: look it up. There were also classical allusions because the

1165
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:14,599
Speaker 1: university education, they had read the classical writers from ancient

1166
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 1: Greece and Rome, pre Christian stuff, which some critics said

1167
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 1: was dangerous pagan ideas being given these ministers, these like

1168
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: coakers and people who certainly weren't going to send their

1169
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 1: kids to college Virgil, Cicero, Caesar, I mean, what do

1170
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 1: we need that for? But they were well versed in

1171
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 1: classical literature, so there's a lot of allusions to that too,

1172
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 1: and they might give the references to it. But yeah, uh.

1173
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:46,639
Speaker 1: But one of the one of the presidents of Habbit

1174
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 1: and maybe Chauncey, was advice to young ministers, if you're

1175
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:55,759
Speaker 1: trying to get an idea across, don't be too high flown.

1176
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:58,679
Speaker 1: He's saying, don't shoot over their heads. They're not gonna

1177
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: understand it, And then there's no point in saying in

1178
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,839
Speaker 1: the first place, don't be so don't show off your learning,

1179
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 1: but be direct. What do people miss when they think

1180
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: about the Salem which Trials? What's the one thing that

1181
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: maybe people miss still I think people generally see the

1182
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,599
Speaker 1: Salem which Trials is something so bizarre they can't really

1183
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 1: identify with it that it's something foolish people did because

1184
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 1: they didn't know any better. They didn't have computers, they

1185
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: didn't have this, they didn't know that, and we're smarter

1186
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: than there. But they were educated people and well intentioned

1187
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 1: people who, even by the lights of their own philosophy

1188
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 1: in their own time, could have figured out that things

1189
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:49,679
Speaker 1: were not proceeding as they should without converting to twenty

1190
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 1: one century skepticism, for example, and people who mean well

1191
01:20:55,920 --> 01:21:00,679
Speaker 1: and are well educated and are generally genuinely concerned for, say,

1192
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 1: their children's welfare. Nowadays can go off in the wrong

1193
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:10,759
Speaker 1: direction also, even though their motives, assuming they're not lying

1194
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 1: about it, their motives are good. I need to protect

1195
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 1: my children, I need to protect my family. But you

1196
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 1: can still go off the rails with it. And that's

1197
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 1: what happened then, I think for the most part. For

1198
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 1: the most part, people we're convinced that something awful was happening,

1199
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 1: and then they just went the down the wrong road

1200
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: for too long. People tend to think of it as

1201
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:45,919
Speaker 1: spooky Halloween stuff, especially in October, but it was serious

1202
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,639
Speaker 1: and deadly, and even if you didn't die, it really

1203
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 1: messed things up, and people who were just on the periphery.

1204
01:21:55,160 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 1: It messed up the economy and in society. So bad

1205
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 1: things can happen, and they happen in different costumes each time,

1206
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:07,559
Speaker 1: so you don't see it coming until you're in the

1207
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:12,960
Speaker 1: middle of it. Were there any lasting effects, I guess

1208
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 1: in a more general sense um of the same witch

1209
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 1: trials that specifically affected women, although certainly we're no more

1210
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 1: witch trials. People didn't want to get near that embroider again.

1211
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:26,720
Speaker 1: Some people thought that it was stopped too soon. It

1212
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: really was something going on that it was a cover up,

1213
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 1: but generally it was one huge embarrassment to the government.

1214
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,519
Speaker 1: There were slander suits brought by people who had had

1215
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:44,839
Speaker 1: been accused, as had been done about before that, because

1216
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:47,680
Speaker 1: prior to six two, I think about a third of

1217
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: the witchcraft which cases were slander suits where you're trying

1218
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: to clear your name and they generally want but I

1219
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,439
Speaker 1: don't know. It's certainly left a lot of neighborhood and

1220
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 1: inter family resentments that lasted a couple of generations. But

1221
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,839
Speaker 1: then you find people a couple of generations on marrying

1222
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 1: someone from the opposite camp, so it's I don't think

1223
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:21,640
Speaker 1: they're angry now. It just makes a very interesting genealogy.

1224
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 1: One of the fascinating things driving through dan Verse versus

1225
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: driving through Salem proper is just how this period in

1226
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 1: the trials are treated just in the public street. Yeah. Well,

1227
01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:38,200
Speaker 1: because dan Versus a separate town now, it sort of

1228
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:42,280
Speaker 1: was not remembered that that was with things started, and

1229
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 1: Salem it's got this history that everybody knew about one

1230
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 1: way or another. I think the tourists came before the

1231
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 1: tourist industry. They responded to people's interests from what I've

1232
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 1: been able to figure out. And when the railroad came

1233
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:03,559
Speaker 1: in and it was a lot more traveling, there was

1234
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 1: more of it, even though locals didn't want to talk

1235
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:11,240
Speaker 1: about it necessarily all this were more interested in discussing it.

1236
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 1: But you know, it was not it was not a

1237
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 1: shining example of community spirit. But there was a newspaper

1238
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: article in eighteen ninety two when it was the two anniversary,

1239
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 1: and the reporter was going through Salem and he's talking

1240
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 1: to the cab driver, which is a horse drawn cab,

1241
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 1: and the cabby says that there's two things that people

1242
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:37,639
Speaker 1: who have a little time in Salem want to go see.

1243
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 1: They want to see the house where Hawthorne was born

1244
01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:43,160
Speaker 1: then Nathaniel, and they want to see where the witches

1245
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 1: were burned or hanged or something like that. Hey, I

1246
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: guess he knew they were hanged, and he probably took

1247
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 1: him to the wrong place, but that's what people asked for.

1248
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 1: And in nine eight ninety two was the year of

1249
01:24:55,200 --> 01:25:00,679
Speaker 1: the first souvenir silver witch logo spoon in Alum from

1250
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 1: the Daniel Lowe Company, which was quite a jeweler in

1251
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:08,280
Speaker 1: town in the building that's now across from the Cement

1252
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:13,559
Speaker 1: the stevensby Which statue. So things were starting up and

1253
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:17,800
Speaker 1: there was there was an opportunity that people took advantage of.

1254
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 1: But when the mills and the leather industry and the

1255
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 1: textile mills went elsewhere, tourism filled a void too, But

1256
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 1: there was also more notice of Salem through TV and

1257
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:39,400
Speaker 1: books and things. It kind of it was an unstoppable force.

1258
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 1: And also it's good and some of it is very

1259
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:50,800
Speaker 1: inaccurate Arthur Miller's play, which is creative fiction, but definitely

1260
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 1: on the on the part about not being believed when

1261
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 1: you're telling the truth, so you lie and then they

1262
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: believe you. That's that hits the nail on the head

1263
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,960
Speaker 1: that made it internationally known. So if it hadn't been before,

1264
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 1: people know about it all over the world, So that

1265
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 1: becomes Salem to them. And it's not just Salem, it's

1266
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:17,519
Speaker 1: the whole area had problems. Salem was the shire town,

1267
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 1: so that's where the courts set. But well, because it's

1268
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:26,880
Speaker 1: so well known, I the most I hope for is

1269
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,519
Speaker 1: that get the facts out and hope that people listen

1270
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:35,840
Speaker 1: and just satisfied with having a Halloween joke out of it.

1271
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 1: I like Halloween, but this is not that. Hey, folks,

1272
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:50,639
Speaker 1: it's Aaron here. I hope that today's interview helped deepen

1273
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 1: your understanding of everything involved in the Salem Which trials.

1274
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,240
Speaker 1: But we're not done yet. We've got more interviews to

1275
01:26:57,280 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: share with you, so stick around after this briefs answer

1276
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:07,200
Speaker 1: break to hear a preview of next week's interview. Hi.

1277
01:27:07,439 --> 01:27:10,719
Speaker 1: I'm Jane Kamensky. I teach history at Harvard University and

1278
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,800
Speaker 1: I'm also the director of the Lessinger Library on the

1279
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:16,720
Speaker 1: History of Women in the United States. I'm gonna start

1280
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 1: us off with a really well, deceptively simple question, but

1281
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 1: it's pretty complex. I'm sure, what was a witch in Um?

1282
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 1: Which was somebody who made unexpected things happen. Puritans lived

1283
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 1: in a world of portents and wonders and almonds. They're

1284
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:39,600
Speaker 1: always watching the sky, they're watching the earth. Um there

1285
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:43,559
Speaker 1: you know, Uh, God speaks to them. And I think

1286
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: a which was somebody who made almonds and portents and

1287
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:55,680
Speaker 1: signs happen in ways that Um seemed to reside inappropriately

1288
01:27:56,400 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 1: in a human form, which is in pure in New

1289
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:03,759
Speaker 1: England were not thought to wear black pointy hats, although

1290
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: they sometimes did ride around on brooms UM. And they

1291
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:12,080
Speaker 1: acted in a whole manner of inappropriate ways or were

1292
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 1: present at times when inexplicable things happened. UM. Small harms

1293
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, milk curdling, sour side or going sour. UM.

1294
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:26,160
Speaker 1: Big harms. Uh you know, somebody saying, oh, what a

1295
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 1: pretty child that is, and the child soon sickens and dies. UM.

1296
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 1: Women who spoke out of turn, uh you know who

1297
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 1: whose tongues went on like fishwives in ways that UM

1298
01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:42,400
Speaker 1: really seemed to sort of stick out of the fabric

1299
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:47,240
Speaker 1: of conversation at the time. UM. People who said things

1300
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 1: that later seemed to be ominous. UM. It's a world

1301
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:58,639
Speaker 1: in which, you know, science is quite primitive, and a

1302
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: great deal of what unfolds in any given season is inexplicable. Right,

1303
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:10,280
Speaker 1: Crops fail, animals die, UM. And sometimes in the search

1304
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 1: for supernatural explanations UM, which included God and the Devil UM,

1305
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: which is as the handmaidens of the devil um were

1306
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: were faulted. It's hard to see, looking backwards whether there

1307
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 1: were individuals who cultivated that reputation UM who had sort

1308
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:39,320
Speaker 1: of family businesses in curative arts that flirted with the

1309
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 1: edge of of the supernatural. You know, there there are

1310
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:48,120
Speaker 1: some instances in Salem where um uh women are found

1311
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:51,080
Speaker 1: with poppets that seemed to be a little little cloth

1312
01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:53,960
Speaker 1: dolls that seemed to be used in UM in some

1313
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:58,879
Speaker 1: kind of ritual. One thing that's quite different in UH

1314
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:02,600
Speaker 1: in the early New England and witchcraft cases than in

1315
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:07,200
Speaker 1: a lot of more ancient witchcraft cases is that Puritans

1316
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 1: are very concerned with the idea that some which is

1317
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:13,559
Speaker 1: consort with the devil. Um. You know, there's a there's

1318
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 1: a black mass that surfaces in accounts of Salem that's

1319
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:23,440
Speaker 1: not typical in run of the mill witchcraft cases UM,

1320
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 1: where it's where it's really more about livestock or about

1321
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:31,760
Speaker 1: what we would now think of as a nightmare. I

1322
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,639
Speaker 1: woke up with a sensation of somebody pressing on my chest,

1323
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:36,320
Speaker 1: and I thought of my neighbor, and it must have

1324
01:30:36,320 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 1: been her um bewitching me. UM. So a whole range

1325
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:47,799
Speaker 1: of unexpected happenings that didn't have an easy narrative cause

1326
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 1: that could fasten on somebody who, for whatever reason um

1327
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 1: stuck out in a fabric of society that was supposed

1328
01:30:56,520 --> 01:31:11,560
Speaker 1: to be smooth. Very This episode of Unobscured was executive

1329
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 1: produced by Me, Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, with music

1330
01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 1: by Chad Lawson and audio engineering by Alex Williams. The

1331
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 1: Unobscured website has everything you need to get the most

1332
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 1: out of the podcast. There's a resource library of maps, charts,

1333
01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 1: and links to Salem document archives online, as well as

1334
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: a suggested reading list and a page with all of

1335
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:37,759
Speaker 1: our historian biographies. And as always, thanks for supporting this show.

1336
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:41,240
Speaker 1: If you love it, head over to Apple podcasts dot

1337
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 1: com slash Unobscured and leave a written review and a

1338
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 1: star rating. It makes a huge difference for the show's growth,

1339
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 1: and as always, thanks for listening.