Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Set's podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is Amy SPITTALNI, CEO of the Jewish
Speaker 1: Council for Public Affairs. Amy, what is the Jewish Council
Speaker 1: for Public Affairs?
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Bob. JCPA. The Jewish
Speaker 2: Council for Public Affairs is a nearly eighty year old
Speaker 2: organization that is really rooted in the recognition that Jewish
Speaker 2: safety is strongest in communities where we have deep relationships
Speaker 2: with our neighbors, where we have inclusive democracy, and where
Speaker 2: those lines of communication and relationship are open, all in
Speaker 2: service of the sort of inclusive, pluralistic society we know
Speaker 2: Jews have really been safest in throughout history.
Speaker 1: Okay in English? What is the JCPA?
Speaker 2: So, what this means in practice is that we work
Speaker 2: with one hundred and twenty five Jewish Community Relations councils
Speaker 2: around the country, empowering, engaging them, and working with national
Speaker 2: partners as well on building those sorts of cross community
Speaker 2: relationships on issues related to democracy and fighting anti Semitism
Speaker 2: and fighting other forms of hate. Recognizing that at this
Speaker 2: moment we are seeing unprecedented threats to our community's safety
Speaker 2: unprecedented threats to our democracy, and that to mobilize effectively
Speaker 2: against all of them requires building coalitions across communities to
Speaker 2: do that as strongly and effectively as possible.
Speaker 1: Okay, how is your job and your efforts changed from
Speaker 1: before October seventh and after October seventh?
Speaker 2: So you know, I started this job full time on
Speaker 2: September fifth, and we knew it was going to be
Speaker 2: a challenging job. Regardless prior work, I had been really
Speaker 2: focused on fighting extremism and increasingly normalized anti Semitism, in
Speaker 2: white supremacy and other forms of hate, and certainly going
Speaker 2: into this role, we knew that all of those factors
Speaker 2: were front and center and top of mind for many
Speaker 2: in the Jewish community, and building relationships across communitys were
Speaker 2: particularly crucial to taking on this crisis. October seventh, of course,
Speaker 2: only made that more urgent. It has, in so many
Speaker 2: ways put a fine point on just how tenuous this
Speaker 2: situation is for the Jewish community in America right now,
Speaker 2: for so many other communities, and it has really created
Speaker 2: a crisis in which we've seen extremists seek to exploit
Speaker 2: what's happening in Israel and Gaza to further tear communities apart,
Speaker 2: make Jews and others feel isolated in this moment, and
Speaker 2: make the sort of cross community relationships that we know
Speaker 2: that are at the core of our work at Chasepa
Speaker 2: and core to jew or safety feel less attainable than ever.
Speaker 2: And so we have to work infinitely harder to keep
Speaker 2: these relationships strong, to keep them frankly open in the
Speaker 2: first place right now, and ensure that we are not
Speaker 2: losing sight of all of the threats that we are
Speaker 2: facing as a community, even as we grapple with the
Speaker 2: immediate crisis post October seventh, which again, in so many
Speaker 2: ways really just exposed and exacerbated so much of what
Speaker 2: we already knew to be true.
Speaker 1: So why does everybody hate the Jews?
Speaker 2: Well, look, it's important to understand anti semitism right. Anti
Speaker 2: Semitism is unlike so many other forms of bigotry. It
Speaker 2: functions as a form of prejudice or bias in and
Speaker 2: of itself, and that alone, of course, leads to attacks
Speaker 2: against Jews simply because they're Jews. But unlike other forms
Speaker 2: of religious or racial or ethnic bigotry, anti Semitism also
Speaker 2: operates as an overarching conspiracy theory rooted in lies and
Speaker 2: tropes about Jewish power and influence, and so because it
Speaker 2: functions that way, it serves to not just operate as
Speaker 2: you know, disdain, but actually allows it to apply to
Speaker 2: virtually any circumstance in which something bad is happening and
Speaker 2: someone needs to be blamed, right, whether it is whether
Speaker 2: it is you know, the idea of the changes happening
Speaker 2: to our country, the demographic changes that some on the
Speaker 2: far right are seeking to pin on the Jewish community.
Speaker 2: This idea of Jews will not replace us or the
Speaker 2: American government support for Israel in this moment which many
Speaker 2: want to pin on Jewish power and influence rather than
Speaker 2: necessarily American interests the region, there needs to be some
Speaker 2: sort of puppet master or h or uh control, someone
Speaker 2: controlling and pulling the strengths. And so the way that
Speaker 2: antisemitiism functions in this way, as this conspiracy theory allows
Speaker 2: it to take root and manifest in so many different
Speaker 2: circumstances that are in some cases tied to specific ideologies
Speaker 2: and in other cases totally removed from the ideological spectrum,
Speaker 2: and operate simply as as these sorts of conspiracy theories
Speaker 2: targeting Jews.
Speaker 1: But you know, if the Jews have all the money.
Speaker 2: If that were true, I don't know. I would have
Speaker 2: a bigger apartment, I think.
Speaker 1: But what do you know? These are tropes that you
Speaker 1: hear in a regular basis. Your job is fighting anti semitism.
Speaker 1: So someone says the Jews have all the money. What's
Speaker 1: the response to that.
Speaker 2: Well, it gets It's much more complicated than that, right, So,
Speaker 2: we have a number of anti Semitic tropes that have,
Speaker 2: according to research from the EDL and others, definitely become
Speaker 2: more prevalent in recent years. We've seen these increase from
Speaker 2: a handful small percentage of Americans buying into these anti
Speaker 2: Semitic troops ten years ago to a much more significant
Speaker 2: portion buying into five six anti semitic tropes at any
Speaker 2: given time. And so what that tells us is that
Speaker 2: there has been this sort of normalization of anti semitism.
Speaker 2: In some cases, it manifests in the tropes that you
Speaker 2: just talked about. And I will say, it's not even
Speaker 2: necessarily meant maliciously in certain cases, right, some people are
Speaker 2: simply saying. Some people sort of see these tropes as compliments,
Speaker 2: and how we engage people in understanding that when you
Speaker 2: talk about Jewish money, when you talk about Jewish power
Speaker 2: and control, it can easily be perceived or shape shift
Speaker 2: into more explicitly anti Semitic tropes that further these harmful
Speaker 2: narratives and that make Jews unsafe. And so what we
Speaker 2: have seen be most effective in actually addressing some of
Speaker 2: these are actually one on one conversations where we're helping
Speaker 2: people understand why something like that furthers the broader conspiracy
Speaker 2: theories and narratives that we know make Jews and frankly
Speaker 2: all of us less safe.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say we're having a one on one
Speaker 1: conversation and I say, but Jews have all the money.
Speaker 1: What do you say?
Speaker 2: That is rooted in longstanding, age old anti Semitic tropes
Speaker 2: related to Jews and power. The Historically, many have tried
Speaker 2: to pin financial control and other forms of power on
Speaker 2: the Jewish community as a means to scapegoat the Jewish
Speaker 2: community for the ills of society. And when we talk
Speaker 2: about Jews as having all of this control, having all
Speaker 2: of this money, having all of this financial power, it
Speaker 2: only seeks to reinforce these tropes and the broader conspiracy
Speaker 2: theories that they fuel making Jews less safe and brought
Speaker 2: more broadly, fueling distrust in our democracy and in our
Speaker 2: society in a way that makes all of us less safe.
Speaker 1: But where does it come from, Why does everybody think
Speaker 1: Jews have all this money?
Speaker 2: Well, it comes from these age old anti Semitic tropes
Speaker 2: and narratives that have been around for millennia at this point,
Speaker 2: going back to you know, to Shylock, going back to
Speaker 2: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and everything in between,
Speaker 2: in which Jews were really painted as as people who
Speaker 2: used the financial system, who used power to effectively control things,
Speaker 2: to influence things.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: It is deeply connected to those millennia old manifestations of
Speaker 2: anti Semitism are deeply connected to what we see today.
Speaker 2: There's nothing new under the sun when it comes to
Speaker 2: anti Semitism, but rather it is just manifesting in new,
Speaker 2: specific ways tied to the issues of the moment, whether
Speaker 2: it be those who are talking about Jewish efforts again
Speaker 2: to change the demographics of our country or to support Israel,
Speaker 2: or to otherwise connect the dots to what they believe
Speaker 2: to be what they believe to be the ills of
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 1: Okay, if you go back one hundred years ago, Blacks
Speaker 1: and Jews were aligned in America, there's suddenly, well not suddenly,
Speaker 1: there was eventually a bifurcation about fifty sixty years ago.
Speaker 1: What is that tension between black people and Jews about?
Speaker 2: I would argue that there isn't actually attention there. There
Speaker 2: are many who want us to feel like that there's
Speaker 2: feel like there's attention there, when in fact, we know
Speaker 2: societies in which black people in which Jewish people are safe,
Speaker 2: are safer societies for everyone, and that the advancement of
Speaker 2: civil rights, the fight against extremism, against racism, against anti
Speaker 2: semitism are all inextricably linked. And so that there are
Speaker 2: many across the political spectrum who seek to tear communities apart,
Speaker 2: who think that by pitting our communities against each other,
Speaker 2: by painting the safety of one community as zero sum,
Speaker 2: and that the rights the advancement of any one community
Speaker 2: comes at the expense of another community, it makes it
Speaker 2: harder for us to actually be in solidarity with one
Speaker 2: another and advance the broader framework that we know necessary
Speaker 2: to all of us being safe.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, well, let's cut through the BS so subsequent
Speaker 1: to the war, there are a number of organizations of
Speaker 1: Black Life Matters that didn't necessarily represent every Black person
Speaker 1: in America or even everybody in that organization who literally
Speaker 1: came out in favor of the Palestinians and against the Jews.
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that the African Americans and the
Speaker 1: Jews are aligned under those circumstances.
Speaker 2: Again, I think that there are extremest voices in specific communities,
Speaker 2: including some of those statements that you're referencing, that are
Speaker 2: not reflective of the entire community that went to extreme positions,
Speaker 2: positions that I find abhorrent in terms of labeling hamas
Speaker 2: as active terror as active resistance, but again, are not
Speaker 2: representative where the vast majority of the community actually is.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's switch. So we had these Black Lives
Speaker 1: Matters protests across a maria across the world in the
Speaker 1: wake of what happened in Minnesota. But other than in
Speaker 1: France the other day, where one hundred thousand people came
Speaker 1: to march, we don't see an equivalent march for Jews
Speaker 1: against anti Semitism. Why not.
Speaker 2: I'm headed to DC tomorrow for a massive march against
Speaker 2: anti Semitism and support of Israel, and so I expect
Speaker 2: there will be tens of thousands of people there with me,
Speaker 2: and that they'll come from a variety of different communities.
Speaker 2: It's there are a lot of people who have shown
Speaker 2: up in very different ways over the last five weeks.
Speaker 2: It's very easy to feel like we are isolated and
Speaker 2: alone right now, and there are very good reasons too.
Speaker 2: There are many who are trying to make the Jewish
Speaker 2: community feel as if there is no one standing with us,
Speaker 2: and the loudest voices who are spreading that sort of bikertry,
Speaker 2: including some of the statements that you reference, are getting
Speaker 2: outsized attention. But if you actually look at who's showing up,
Speaker 2: from government officials, elected officials from the federal, state and
Speaker 2: local levels, to community partners, there are many people who
Speaker 2: have actually come and stood with the Jewish community, who
Speaker 2: has spoken out against Tamas's terror attack, who've demanded the
Speaker 2: release of the hostages, who have specifically called out rising
Speaker 2: anti semitism and hate in this moment. And so what
Speaker 2: we need to be doing is continuing to empower and
Speaker 2: amplify those voices that are speaking out for us, that
Speaker 2: are showing up in allyship in whatever form that takes,
Speaker 2: in the form of statements, in the forms of showing
Speaker 2: up at marches and pro Israel and protests against anti Semitism,
Speaker 2: in the form of building relationships across communities, recognizing that
Speaker 2: even in this moment, we are not going to necessarily
Speaker 2: agree with all of our neighbors about the policy solutions
Speaker 2: to these early Palestinian conflict, but that we can agree
Speaker 2: that the rising anti Semitism we're seeing the ripple effects
Speaker 2: of this conflict from anti Semitism to that the Islamophobian,
Speaker 2: anti Arab hate targeting those communities is a crisis for
Speaker 2: all of us, and we need to be working together
Speaker 2: to mitigate it. And so there are people who are
Speaker 2: absolutely showing up, not nearly as many as some of
Speaker 2: us would have hoped, but it's important not to lose
Speaker 2: sight of that because it's precisely what extremists want is
Speaker 2: to make Jews feel isolated and alone. In this moment.
Speaker 1: What is BBS.
Speaker 2: BDS is boycott's divestments and sanctions of Israel.
Speaker 1: And who is behind BDS just the kids on campus,
Speaker 1: other people in America. What is delivering its.
Speaker 2: Strength BDS is more of a movement, so it's hard
Speaker 2: to say that any one individual or group is behind it.
Speaker 2: It there are a number of organizations, students, others who
Speaker 2: support the BDS movement. As you can imagine, I oppose
Speaker 2: the BDS movement. It's a tool that some are using
Speaker 2: to try to effectively put pressure on Israel when Israel
Speaker 2: is directly isolated and treated uniquely, treated differently than any
Speaker 2: other country. It of course raises specific issues and concerns,
Speaker 2: and so there are many who, of course oppose the
Speaker 2: BDS movement for that reason.
Speaker 1: Is or is not the BDS movement supported by the
Speaker 1: Palestinians in ways that are not obvious, both financially in
Speaker 1: terms of direction.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I understand the question.
Speaker 1: Well, Noah Tishby basically says another commentator in this sphere
Speaker 1: that BDS is not as benign as it looks on
Speaker 1: the surface, that it's an active organization funded and directed
Speaker 1: by Palestinians in the Middle East. Is that something you
Speaker 1: agree with?
Speaker 2: I do not know who's funding the BBS movement. This
Speaker 2: is not my area of expertiation.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, then let's move on from that. So why
Speaker 1: all of this Jew hate an anti Israel sentiment on
Speaker 1: college campuses at this time.
Speaker 2: Well, you know I was. I was a student leader
Speaker 2: when I was in college over fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: At this well, well, well, slow down, said on where'd
Speaker 1: you go to college? And what exactly did being a
Speaker 1: student leader mean?
Speaker 2: So I went to Tufts University in Boston, and I
Speaker 2: was the president of Hillel on campus, the Jewish student organism.
Speaker 1: Well, let's go back before that. So where did you
Speaker 1: grow up? Up?
Speaker 2: In New York?
Speaker 1: But New York, New York City, the suburbs.
Speaker 2: I grew up on Long Island. Although I try to
Speaker 2: mask my accent, you.
Speaker 1: Do a good job of that. Did you grow up
Speaker 1: in one of the so called five towns?
Speaker 2: Not far from there, but not in one of them?
Speaker 1: Okay? But the reason I bring that up is you
Speaker 1: grew up in an environment where there was a strong
Speaker 1: Jewish presence.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Look, I grew up in a heavily Jewish area.
Speaker 2: I was the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, very Jewishly connected,
Speaker 2: going to synagogue every Saturday, going to Hebrew School. Even
Speaker 2: after my butmtz By going to what was called Hebrew
Speaker 2: High School for continuing education. And so even though I
Speaker 2: went to public school, Jewish education, Jewish engagement was front
Speaker 2: and center in my life, and so it very much
Speaker 2: I think shaped everything I did, even if I resisted
Speaker 2: it at times. And clearly now I'm running a Jewish organization.
Speaker 2: And perhaps if you had told me decades ago that
Speaker 2: this is what I would be doing, I might not
Speaker 2: have believed you. But the ways in which that Jewish
Speaker 2: upbringing has shaped my path has become pretty clear in
Speaker 2: recent years.
Speaker 1: How many kids in the family.
Speaker 2: I was one of two and the older. I'm the
Speaker 2: older sibling and went to school at Toughts.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me, what does your sibling do?
Speaker 2: She works in marketing, so.
Speaker 1: She has nothing professionally, She's not in this sphere.
Speaker 2: Correct. She is, of course jewishly engaged in her own way.
Speaker 2: But I am the maybe call it a massachist, the
Speaker 2: person who decided to become a professional Jew in my day. Jab.
Speaker 1: Okay, your parents? What did your parents do for work?
Speaker 2: Both my parents were New York City public school teachers,
Speaker 2: and I think in many ways that really shaped my
Speaker 2: outlook on the world as well. I remember them coming
Speaker 2: home frustrated with the state of the city. They were
Speaker 2: in New York City Public schools and queens, and you know,
Speaker 2: frustrated with funding, frustrated with their contract disagreements that they
Speaker 2: were having from the city, And it really, in so
Speaker 2: many ways put me on a path in terms of
Speaker 2: public service and government. And so seeing that firsthand, it
Speaker 2: really I think influenced my outlook on the world, the
Speaker 2: ways in which government could be a tool for good
Speaker 2: or for bad, and the impact that, in particular, local
Speaker 2: government could have in a sort of an outsized way
Speaker 2: on people's lives. And I spent a good portion ended
Speaker 2: up spending a good portion of my career in state
Speaker 2: and local government, partially because of the impact I saw
Speaker 2: it have on the day to day of my own parents'
Speaker 2: lives teaching for decades in the New York City public schools.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're obviously very dedicated to the cause. Are you
Speaker 1: an outlier or you following in the jet stream of
Speaker 1: your parents? Were they as active and involved going to
Speaker 1: synagogue Jewish causes as you are?
Speaker 2: My mom, perhaps more so than my dad. You know,
Speaker 2: my mom's parents are Holocaust survivors, and when they came
Speaker 2: to the United States and had my mom, I think
Speaker 2: it was important for them to be Jewishly connected because
Speaker 2: they were persecuted, they watched their entire families be killed
Speaker 2: simply because they were Jewish, and so to come here
Speaker 2: to a place where they could practice that religion freely
Speaker 2: and openly in whatever form that took felt important, and
Speaker 2: so that Jewish connection ran I think throughout that side
Speaker 2: of my family and directly in many ways, sort of
Speaker 2: shaped how I grew up. And the fact that synagogue,
Speaker 2: that Jewish engagement, that the sort of social action side
Speaker 2: of Judaism was such a big piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, again, it manifested in different ways
Speaker 2: for different members of my family, but I think at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, so much of it feels
Speaker 2: rooted in our own family history and the need and
Speaker 2: the desire to feel like we are creating and living
Speaker 2: a better life here than what my grandparents escaped from
Speaker 2: not that long ago.
Speaker 1: I see a stroller in the background, will tend to
Speaker 1: indicate you have a baby. This is audio only your
Speaker 1: significant other. Are they Jewish?
Speaker 2: They're not, But we are raising our child Jewish, and
Speaker 2: I think is very you know, our family has very much,
Speaker 2: I think been rooted in so many of the values
Speaker 2: of Judaism in shaping how we live our lives, our
Speaker 2: responsibility to make things better, to leave the world a
Speaker 2: little better for the next generation, to know everything from
Speaker 2: the Jewish traditions that are a day to day part
Speaker 2: of our lives to I think those overarching values, and
Speaker 2: it has been really meaningful to sort of see that
Speaker 2: all come together, having our first child and passing that
Speaker 2: on and experiencing that with them in new ways.
Speaker 1: Who performed the wedding ceremony.
Speaker 2: A dear friend of mine from college who's a rabbi.
Speaker 2: We were on the Hillel student board together. She married
Speaker 2: us and it was incredibly meaningful. It is particularly fun
Speaker 2: to see your friends become rabbis because it didnotes some
Speaker 2: sort of level of wisdom and expertise, which they absolutely have.
Speaker 2: But when you knew them when they were nineteen, it's
Speaker 2: funny to juxtapose those two things.
Speaker 1: Okay, I certainly heard from a young age that I
Speaker 1: should marry a Jewish person. I've been married once the
Speaker 1: person converted to their own volition. How did you feel
Speaker 1: when you fell in love with somebody who wasn't Jewish.
Speaker 2: I did not expect to be talking about this. For me,
Speaker 2: it's always about how you live your life. And I
Speaker 2: don't think that anyone could necessarily argue that I'm not
Speaker 2: living a Jewish life, given what I've done professionally and
Speaker 2: given what I'm doing personally. And so for me, it
Speaker 2: was really about, you know, there was no question there
Speaker 2: if this was the person I'm supposed to be with,
Speaker 2: if they were open to raising my child, our child Jewish,
Speaker 2: if they were open to the Jewish values and practices
Speaker 2: that were important to me, That's all that mattered. And
Speaker 2: my partner is very much so open to that, engaged
Speaker 2: in that. You know, we go to tat Shabat and
Speaker 2: all of the fun things that come with being the
Speaker 2: parent of a young, young Jewish child in New York
Speaker 2: and and that has been incredibly meaningful to see.
Speaker 1: And what does your significant other do for a living?
Speaker 2: He worked, He's a longtime journalist who has now moved
Speaker 2: into sort of the tech and anti disinformation space.
Speaker 1: Okay, the reason to bring all this up is many
Speaker 1: people believe that it will cease being Judaism on the
Speaker 1: planet as a result of intermarriage. I even see this
Speaker 1: in the next generation of my sister's kids. Do you
Speaker 1: have a take on that?
Speaker 2: Well, I think we need to be in. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not going to change the fact that Jews are intermarrying.
Speaker 2: That is a very real part of the reality of
Speaker 2: American Jews in particular. The question is how are we
Speaker 2: engaging those people and those couples and families so that
Speaker 2: they stay Jewishly connected, And that could take a variety
Speaker 2: of arms. It could take the form of religious tradition
Speaker 2: and practice the holidays, engaging them through synagogue. It can
Speaker 2: be engaging through Jewish values on social action and advocacy.
Speaker 2: It could be making sure that we are just simply
Speaker 2: creating spaces for intermarried couples, inter faith couples to grapple
Speaker 2: with the very real questions and challenges that so can
Speaker 2: come up in those relationships. And so we're never going
Speaker 2: to stop the fact that We're never going to stop
Speaker 2: the fact of intermarriage, particularly here in America. But what
Speaker 2: we can do is make sure that we are not
Speaker 2: losing people from being engaged Jewishly because we've made them
Speaker 2: feel unwelcome in the community simply because they are intermarried.
Speaker 1: On the other end of the spectrum, there are very
Speaker 1: Orthodox people. We're having a lot of children saying that
Speaker 1: they're saving the religion. But if one pays attention to
Speaker 1: the media. There's a lot of stories that these kids
Speaker 1: are going to yeshiva's, are not fully educated, that in
Speaker 1: certain communities they're taking over the school boards, they're getting
Speaker 1: a disproportionate amount of welfare. What is your response to that?
Speaker 1: How do you know that's not a good image for
Speaker 1: Jews in general?
Speaker 2: Look, the Jewish community is remarkably diverse. It includes everyone
Speaker 2: from Hasidic Ardi Jews. I live in Brooklyn, which is
Speaker 2: perhaps one of the most diverse cross sections of the
Speaker 2: Jewish community in the world, from Salt Mars and Assitic
Speaker 2: Jews and Williamsburg and Borough Park to Orthodox Conservative, reform Reconstructionist,
Speaker 2: unaffiliated Jews. And how we are understanding the fact that
Speaker 2: this Jewish, that the Jewish community is inclusive of all
Speaker 2: of these different means of practice, that there is not
Speaker 2: one single type of Jew that is the correct Jew
Speaker 2: or the right Chew. And in fact, we're seeing deliberate
Speaker 2: efforts by some including I would argue politicians who traffic
Speaker 2: and anti Semitic troops tropes to specifically distinguish between good
Speaker 2: and bad Jews, to say that some Jews are loyal
Speaker 2: and good to certain politicians, to the same of Israel
Speaker 2: or otherwise, and some are not, And that for me
Speaker 2: tells me we have we are. It is more urgent
Speaker 2: than ever that we take a broad view of what
Speaker 2: the Jewish tent is and do everything in our power
Speaker 2: to keep that broad, to keep that inclusive, to make
Speaker 2: sure that we are welcoming people in from a broad
Speaker 2: array of Jewish backgrounds. That doesn't mean that, of course,
Speaker 2: we don't need to be ensuring yeshivas are teaching important
Speaker 2: secular skills in other curriculum. It doesn't mean that there
Speaker 2: aren't social service needs and challenges that we need to
Speaker 2: grapple with and support the community in addressing. But it
Speaker 2: is important that we, truly, I think, embrace and support
Speaker 2: the diversity of the Jewish community. There are so few
Speaker 2: of us in this world that we should never be
Speaker 2: leaving a single person on the table simply because we
Speaker 2: disagree with how they practice their Let's.
Speaker 1: Go back to Tufts. I went to college at Middlebury College,
Speaker 1: small college in Vermont.
Speaker 2: Now this is long behind part of the NEZCAC. The
Speaker 2: New England small college.
Speaker 1: Athletics absolutely listen to you. Although the sports were not
Speaker 1: such a big deal when I went there, they are now.
Speaker 1: But the reason I mention this is because forty five
Speaker 1: percent of the students were from prep schools and growing
Speaker 1: up in a suburb in Connecticut. Although Jews were far
Speaker 1: from the majority, there was an overall Jewish feeling that
Speaker 1: I did not feel in college. Certainly, Tufts has more Jews,
Speaker 1: But to what degree was it a difference going from
Speaker 1: your enclaveon on Long Island to Malden, mass and being
Speaker 1: itself's Yeah, look for me.
Speaker 2: It was in so many ways both very similar and
Speaker 2: deeply different. So in terms of its similarities, I think
Speaker 2: both Long Island and Tufts have pretty significant Jewish populations.
Speaker 2: I used to be a campus tour guide. I believe
Speaker 2: the percentage I would share on my tours was Tuffs
Speaker 2: was twenty seven percent Jewish at the time I was there,
Speaker 2: So it was not a small population considered. You know,
Speaker 2: we are two percent of the American population. Twenty seven
Speaker 2: percent of Tufts hellel which was the Jewish student group
Speaker 2: I led, was I believe the largest student group on
Speaker 2: campus at one point, or one of the largest student groups.
Speaker 2: So it was a community that, again I think was
Speaker 2: quite diverse in terms of you know, religious practice and
Speaker 2: engagement and in many ways, I think, you know, aligned
Speaker 2: with where I grew up in terms of having a
Speaker 2: strong and large Jewish community. Where it really differed in
Speaker 2: where it opened my eyes, which was understanding the ways
Speaker 2: in which everything else I was doing in college, the
Speaker 2: active citizenship. I was a political science major, I spent
Speaker 2: a year studying in Israel. It helped me really can
Speaker 2: the dots between the different parts of my identity with
Speaker 2: my Judaism, Understanding that Judaism wasn't simply you know, going
Speaker 2: to synagogue or going to Shabbat services on the weekend,
Speaker 2: wasn't simply celebrating the holidays, but also really doing the
Speaker 2: hard work of advocacy and active citizenship and engagement of
Speaker 2: understanding Israel on the conflict of being engaged in these
Speaker 2: issues in a way that for me was so eye opening,
Speaker 2: having really not spent time learning or thinking about so
Speaker 2: many of them before then, and so to be able
Speaker 2: to sort of connect the dots between my Jewish identity
Speaker 2: and my career path right the values that I wanted
Speaker 2: to that I wanted to live was particularly unique to
Speaker 2: my experience at Toughs and something I'm deeply grateful for actually.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I interrupted you with his backstory. You were
Speaker 1: talking about being ahead of Hillel at toughs.
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, when I was a student. I graduated
Speaker 2: over fifteen years ago, But when I was a student,
Speaker 2: it felt like we could actually have constructive conversations about
Speaker 2: Israel on campus. There wasn't always agreement, things didn't always
Speaker 2: end in kumbaya, but I think we were generally able
Speaker 2: to have challenging conversations in a way that felt meaningful
Speaker 2: and constructive. In the years since, it seems like that
Speaker 2: has gone out the window college campus, as much like
Speaker 2: our politics and society more broadly, have become even more polarized,
Speaker 2: and in particular, it feels like the ways in which
Speaker 2: Jewish students or students who support Israel have been isolated
Speaker 2: on college campuses is one of the greatest symptoms of that.
Speaker 2: We are seeing just a level of sort of irrational
Speaker 2: hatred and targeting and isolation of Jewish students related to
Speaker 2: the Israel conversation that is unlike anything I ever experienced
Speaker 2: when I was a student, and frankly anything that we've
Speaker 2: seen in a number of the years in between the
Speaker 2: last five to six weeks since October seventh have really
Speaker 2: been a masks off movement where we've seen just vile,
Speaker 2: vitriolic anti Semitism manifest in new explicit ways on college
Speaker 2: campuses under the guise of protesting Israel. This doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that there isn't very real conversations and debate to have
Speaker 2: and how we best distinguished between people's right to free
Speaker 2: speech to criticize the Israeli government to oppose is Israel's
Speaker 2: actions with that are in turn directly targeting the Jewish
Speaker 2: community simply for being Jewish or holding them accountable for
Speaker 2: Israel's actions is going to be all the more important
Speaker 2: in the weeks ahead because we're seeing those lines blurred
Speaker 2: in so many cases and it's making students unsafe.
Speaker 1: So what change to cause this?
Speaker 2: It's you know, I've been deep and polled ATA over
Speaker 2: the last five or so weeks since October seventh, and
Speaker 2: every poll and every survey tells us that the biggest
Speaker 2: issue and the places where we have the most challenge
Speaker 2: in terms of anti Semitism, in terms of anti Zionism,
Speaker 2: in terms of other issues like that is less connected
Speaker 2: to ideology and more connected to age than anything. It's
Speaker 2: telling us that gen Z the generation that has effectively
Speaker 2: been raised on social media, whether it be TikTok or
Speaker 2: Instagram or anything else, and therefore gets the vast majority
Speaker 2: of their news from those sites. Either simply doesn't understand
Speaker 2: the conflict, doesn't understand the ways in which debate around
Speaker 2: Israel can and sometimes does morph into anti Semitism, or
Speaker 2: in some places, actually do believe what they're saying, And
Speaker 2: so starting to address this requires us to first understand
Speaker 2: what the problem is, which is that this very age
Speaker 2: specific ignorance and in some cases vitriol that is unique
Speaker 2: to a specific generation that has again been raised almost
Speaker 2: exclusively on social media in a way that is different
Speaker 2: than any of the generations before, and so address seeing it,
Speaker 2: I think first requires us to understand that as opposed
Speaker 2: to trying the sort of one size fits all approach
Speaker 2: to countering anti Semitism that for so long we've been using.
Speaker 1: And so what might we do.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot that we can do, I think,
Speaker 2: one differentiating and understanding the complexity of this. Right, So,
Speaker 2: there are those who are actually anti Semitic, there are
Speaker 2: those who are actually defending Hamas's terror attack, But for
Speaker 2: the vast majority of people, it's rooted less so and
Speaker 2: malicious and more so in ignorance, and so education, education
Speaker 2: actually matters. There have been a number of surveys that
Speaker 2: show that have shown that if you actually educate people,
Speaker 2: if you share some basic facts about the conflict, about
Speaker 2: the history of Israel and the Palestinians, it actually moves
Speaker 2: the needle and helping them understand what's happening and reduce
Speaker 2: some of the polarized biases that we're seeing. I think
Speaker 2: it also requires us to step back and provide more
Speaker 2: structural solutions media and digital literacy. So much of what
Speaker 2: is flying around on social media is rooted in disinformation
Speaker 2: and hate and extremism. And if we are not actually
Speaker 2: teaching kids, teaching educators and schools and parents how to
Speaker 2: engage on social media, how to teach our kids to
Speaker 2: engage on social media in a critical way that's able
Speaker 2: to actually understand what's real and what's not, what's intended
Speaker 2: to be incendiary, and what is actually facts, this is
Speaker 2: only going to continue. So there are some very specific
Speaker 2: tools that are out there, tools from places like an
Speaker 2: organization I'm on the of, the Polarization and Extremism Research
Speaker 2: and Innovation Lab, which is a mouthful at American University
Speaker 2: specifically intended to help people inoculate their kids and their
Speaker 2: students to some of the hate online. Tools from places
Speaker 2: like the Western State Center and the Southern Poverty Law
Speaker 2: Center focused on this specific bills and other policy solutions
Speaker 2: aimed at requiring schools to be teaching media and digital literacy.
Speaker 2: And so we've been grappling with a crisis of extremism
Speaker 2: and hate and disinformation on social media long before October seventh,
Speaker 2: But I think October seventh, in so many ways, ripped
Speaker 2: off the band aid and made crystal clear how that
Speaker 2: is manifesting, particularly among younger Americans, and we're seeing it
Speaker 2: play out more than anything on college campuses right now.
Speaker 1: So what are some of the falsehoods you encounter and
Speaker 1: what are the truths these people should be aware of.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, a big narrative right now is this
Speaker 2: idea of Israel as a colonizer. Right We see this
Speaker 2: in so many different places, and what that presupposes is
Speaker 2: a few things. It suggests that first, Israel and the
Speaker 2: Jewish people have no connection to the land, when we
Speaker 2: know that the Jewish people have had deep connection to
Speaker 2: the Land of Israel for millennia, and that is specifically
Speaker 2: why Israel was formed where it was formed. It also
Speaker 2: fundamentally miss understands who the Israeli people are. Israel is
Speaker 2: comprised of people from of Jews from all over the world,
Speaker 2: as well as Arabs, Bedouins, and others, including Jews who
Speaker 2: were refugees from Arab countries, from African countries, and so
Speaker 2: so much of this idea sort of of the Israeli
Speaker 2: Palestinian conflict, this idea of trying to apply American dynamics
Speaker 2: of and white supremacy to the Israeli Palestinian conflict, is
Speaker 2: rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what the conflict is
Speaker 2: and what the history is. And again, the data tells
Speaker 2: us that when we actually step back and begin to
Speaker 2: educate people about this, to share that history, to share
Speaker 2: you know, who the Israeli people are, it helps people
Speaker 2: recognize that that framework might not actually apply here.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there are mores throughout history. In my lifetime,
Speaker 1: in my studies, I've never seen a country attacked where
Speaker 1: so many people say, don't fight back. I don't think
Speaker 1: that would be the case. I warrant the Jews, what
Speaker 1: do you think, Well.
Speaker 2: Look, this gets into much deeper and more convoluted questions
Speaker 2: about is and its history that we probably then we
Speaker 2: probably have time for here. But look, I think that
Speaker 2: that two things are true. Right. There has absolutely been
Speaker 2: the ways in which Israel has been disproportionately targeted and attacked,
Speaker 2: both in terms of the actual attacks on Israel and
Speaker 2: then in the international community's reaction to it, the disproportionate
Speaker 2: attention directed at Israel that in certain places can actually
Speaker 2: be rooted in anti Semitism or at least anti Zionism,
Speaker 2: and similar or rather on the flip side, is the
Speaker 2: fact that at the end of the day, the only
Speaker 2: solution here is a political solution. Israel has an absolute
Speaker 2: right to defend itself. I support Israel in defending itself
Speaker 2: right now, and I also know that down the road
Speaker 2: eventually the only solution to this conflict is one that
Speaker 2: involves two states living side by side that is reached
Speaker 2: through a political peace agreement. Because there is no military
Speaker 2: solution to this conflict, Hamas needs to be upgraded, Hamas
Speaker 2: needs to be held accountable for its barbaric terror attack,
Speaker 2: and long term we will still need a political solution.
Speaker 2: And so how we are holding all of that complexity,
Speaker 2: how we are both simultaneously defending Israel's right to defend
Speaker 2: itself following this barbaric terror attack and not losing sight
Speaker 2: of the very real need for a long term political solution.
Speaker 2: If the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are ever
Speaker 2: going to be safe and ever going to live in peace,
Speaker 2: is crucial here.
Speaker 1: Okay. Even from the formation of Israel in the forties,
Speaker 1: the Palestinians were offered their own state. There have been
Speaker 1: efforts to create a two state solution, even in the
Speaker 1: last couple of decades. Multiple times. In each case it
Speaker 1: was the Palestinians who rejected that offer. And we hear
Speaker 1: this statement which is now being populated throughout the world
Speaker 1: from the river to the sea, which means the eradication
Speaker 1: of Israel. So when the war began, my inbox said Pepe,
Speaker 1: from people, I want peace, I want a two state solution,
Speaker 1: and I agree with you, each people having their own
Speaker 1: state would be the best of circumstances. But so far
Speaker 1: we have one side who does not desire that.
Speaker 2: There's no other choice. I don't think we had. There's
Speaker 2: no solution for the long term in which a singles
Speaker 2: we're having a single state leads to Jewish safety or
Speaker 2: to any of the self determination both people need. So
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, the only option is
Speaker 2: two states, one Israelian one Palestinian, living side by side
Speaker 2: in peace and security. That doesn't mean that it's going
Speaker 2: to be easy, that doesn't mean that there are comparable
Speaker 2: partners for peace in any direction, but it does mean
Speaker 2: that we have no other choice. A one state solution
Speaker 2: would either be given the population that exists, either an
Speaker 2: anti democratic state or a non Jewish state. And if
Speaker 2: we want a Jewish and democratic homeland, the only option
Speaker 2: is two states.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go underneath that. Let's go more micro. So
Speaker 1: you have all these people, especially on college campuses. I
Speaker 1: want peace now, some of them want is real eradicated,
Speaker 1: and I want a two state solution. But as a
Speaker 1: practical matter, Hamas entered Israeli land killed four digits worth
Speaker 1: of people. And let me put it a little bit differently,
Speaker 1: let's go all the way back. For those of us
Speaker 1: who are older than you are, we lived through the
Speaker 1: sixty seven War, six Day War. All of a sudden,
Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the legend of invincibility of
Speaker 1: the Israelis. Then we had seventy two in Munich at
Speaker 1: the Olympics. We had the seventy three war, which lasted
Speaker 1: much longer, but subsequent to that there was constant burnishing
Speaker 1: of the image of Mo sad Okay. So since there
Speaker 1: hasn't been anything of this significance or this volume in decades,
Speaker 1: there's certainly been actions Elebanon and what's going on in
Speaker 1: the West Bank. People see the Israelis is almighty aggressors.
Speaker 1: Yet we have this terrorist group Pamas based in the
Speaker 1: Gods Strip who say they will never stop fighting. So
Speaker 1: is a practical matter what should the Israelis do now?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you're getting there's a lot there. So
Speaker 2: there's a long history and then there's the specific dynamics
Speaker 2: of this moment. And I think there was a specific
Speaker 2: New York Times story last week where Hamas did an
Speaker 2: interview saying specifically that their goal is constant war, and
Speaker 2: so for many that just underscores the need to actually
Speaker 2: uproot and destroy Hamas. That doesn't change the fact that Israel,
Speaker 2: for example, has an obligation to protect Palestinian civilian lives.
Speaker 2: That when Hamas of course does things to put Palestinian
Speaker 2: civilian lives in harms way. That makes that even harder.
Speaker 2: But it's important that we not lose sight of this complexity. Right,
Speaker 2: that this is intentionally what Hamas wants here. They want
Speaker 2: a constant state of war, and therefore Israel has a
Speaker 2: right and frankly responsibility to do something about that. And
Speaker 2: at the same time, it doesn't change its own obligations
Speaker 2: to protect Palestinian civilian lives however possible.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: What's what we need to be conveying is all of
Speaker 2: that complexity. I think the President President Biden has done
Speaker 2: a phenomenal job conveying that complexity, making clear what he expects,
Speaker 2: making clear his deep support for Israel and its right
Speaker 2: to defend itself even while cautioning about its responsibilities to
Speaker 2: protect civilian lives. And so too, must we hold that
Speaker 2: complexity and talking to people about this this conflict and
Speaker 2: make clear that we are separating Hamas from the Palestinian people,
Speaker 2: that they are not one and the same, that Hamas
Speaker 2: is not the future of the Palestinian people, and that
Speaker 2: they in so many ways have put Palestinian lives directly
Speaker 2: in harm's way as a result of their brutal terror attack.
Speaker 1: What do you say to the people calling for a ceasefire.
Speaker 2: Look, I don't understand how we could have a ceasefire
Speaker 2: with an organization that has made crystal clear as recently
Speaker 2: as just a few days ago that their goal is
Speaker 2: constant war with Israel. First, there are still nearly two
Speaker 2: hundred and forty hostages babies, children, grandparents who are being
Speaker 2: held in Gaza and have been held there for over
Speaker 2: five weeks. These include not just Israelis, but Americans as
Speaker 2: well as suple variety of countries, and so first and foremost,
Speaker 2: we need the hostages released. Second of all, Hamas has
Speaker 2: made very clear what their intent is, which is a
Speaker 2: state of constant war, and so there needs to be
Speaker 2: both a path forward that addresses the humanitarian concerns in Gaza,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't simply lead of Israel susceptible and open
Speaker 2: to repeated attacks from Hamas, which is precisely what they
Speaker 2: have made clear is their goal. And so again we
Speaker 2: so often see this conflict in black and white terms
Speaker 2: ceasefire or no ceasefire, when in actuality, there are ways
Speaker 2: to both address the humanitarian conditions protect Palestinian lives. However,
Speaker 2: possible while still ensuring that a terrorist organization that murdered
Speaker 2: and abducted hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people is
Speaker 2: being held accountable and those people are and the hostages
Speaker 2: are hopefully being freed.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift back to our nation. So what we've
Speaker 1: noticed since October seventh is a schism in the Democratic
Speaker 1: Party from what is labeled the far left to the mainstream.
Speaker 1: We even had a member of Congress who was censured
Speaker 1: over her pro Palestinian comments. How does one bring the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party together on this issue?
Speaker 2: I would argue that the Democratic Party is actually pretty
Speaker 2: united on this issue, and there's a couple voices who
Speaker 2: have been the outliers, But first and foremost the leader
Speaker 2: of the party, President Biden. His moral clarity has been
Speaker 2: unbelievable in the last five weeks. I was part of
Speaker 2: the initial meeting at the White House with the President
Speaker 2: and others in the days after October seventh. He spoke
Speaker 2: not just with deep moral clarity, but from a deeply
Speaker 2: personal place, making clear that this matters to him personally,
Speaker 2: speaking about how he brings his kids and his grandkids
Speaker 2: to Dajao to see the horrors of the holocaust, firsthand
Speaker 2: and make them understand never again, our obligation to fight
Speaker 2: anti Semitism in all of its forms. And so the
Speaker 2: leader of the Democratic Party has been unbelievably clear in
Speaker 2: his allyship and solidarity with the Jewish people, in his
Speaker 2: support for Israel at this dire moment, and I think again,
Speaker 2: in exhibiting the sort of moral clarity that we so
Speaker 2: desperately need. And we've seen that from a huge amount
Speaker 2: of elected officials across the spectrum. And so while there
Speaker 2: are some specific voices that are certainly not aligned with
Speaker 2: that vision, it is not where the vast majority of
Speaker 2: Democrats are or the vast majority of Americans, and so
Speaker 2: it's easy to feel like there are many against us
Speaker 2: in this moment. The loudest voices tend to get outsized impact,
Speaker 2: outsized detention on social media, and outsized criticism. Rightfully so,
Speaker 2: but it's crucial that we not lose sight that the
Speaker 2: vast majority of our country's leaders have been strongly and
Speaker 2: clearly standing with the Jewish community in this deeply painful
Speaker 2: and dramatic moment.
Speaker 1: Okay, within the year, we're going to have a residential election,
Speaker 1: although only six states are really going to count there
Speaker 1: are polls that indicate Trump is doing well in those
Speaker 1: six states, and people on the left will say, well,
Speaker 1: if Trump gets elected, democracy is in question. So it
Speaker 1: is a one percent or a very small percentage of
Speaker 1: people who will ultimately decide this election. So people have
Speaker 1: to want to vote be who will they vote for.
Speaker 1: So I agree with you, the generally elected people in
Speaker 1: Washington are behind the Israelis on this, but there is
Speaker 1: a significant sentiment amongst the population who are not.
Speaker 2: And I think it's important to actually distinguish what we're
Speaker 2: talking about here because the vast majority of Americans actually
Speaker 2: really complex views on this. I think we don't give
Speaker 2: people enough crist it. But if you look at the
Speaker 2: poll data, the vast majority of Americans actually support Israel.
Speaker 2: They believe that Israel has a right to defend itself,
Speaker 2: and they are also concerned that, for example, Israel is
Speaker 2: not doing enough to protect Palestinian civilians. And so they're
Speaker 2: able to hold all of those complex thoughts at the
Speaker 2: same time. And it speaks to the importance of having
Speaker 2: that nuance, having that complexity in how we're addressing this conflict,
Speaker 2: because that's actually where the vast majority of people are
Speaker 2: and so again, it's really easy to feel like those
Speaker 2: loudest voices are dominating the conversation. But every single poll,
Speaker 2: every single survey I've seen, and I've been deep in
Speaker 2: these over the last few weeks, tells us that we
Speaker 2: are not alone in this moment, and we have to
Speaker 2: do a lot of work to ensure that remains the case.
Speaker 2: But that people are showing up, and they're showing up
Speaker 2: not simply in support of Israel, but perhaps even more importantly,
Speaker 2: showing up for the Jewish community at a time when
Speaker 2: the ripple effects of this conflict are translating to very
Speaker 2: real anti semitism here at home.
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned earlier the reasons why we can't have
Speaker 1: a cease fire. New York Times came out for a ceasefire.
Speaker 1: They continue, that's the position of the paper on the
Speaker 1: editorial page. They continue to print pro cease fire opinion pieces,
Speaker 1: and almost none that's saying we shouldn't have a ceasefire.
Speaker 1: I hear from Jews saying we should have a cease fire.
Speaker 1: So yes, we might have universal universals too struggle. We
Speaker 1: might have a majority agreement that Israel should be able
Speaker 1: to exist and defend itself. But I'm also seeing people
Speaker 1: who are afraid to say that there shouldn't be a ceasefire.
Speaker 1: I see my inbox people say, don't use my name.
Speaker 1: They don't want to go on record if I say
Speaker 1: there shouldn't be a ceasefire. The blowbacks unbelievable. I lose
Speaker 1: subscribers to my newsletter, so I am not so sure
Speaker 1: that really everybody's on the same page. Let me reiterate.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people on the left are
Speaker 1: blinking fearful of being criticized themselves for saying there should
Speaker 1: be no cease fire. So this I believe is problematic
Speaker 1: right now, Yes, our government and the Israeli government are
Speaker 1: not stopping, but the sentiment of the public seems to
Speaker 1: be the opposite.
Speaker 2: Look I think, I think we need to distinguish between
Speaker 2: what is a difference of policy and actual maliciousness. Right so,
Speaker 2: I think good people can disagree at a certain point
Speaker 2: over whether there should be a ceasefire or a humanitarian pause,
Speaker 2: or all of the different policy solutions that are out there.
Speaker 2: I know where I stand, and I'm deeply concerned about
Speaker 2: what a ceasefire in the full sense would mean for
Speaker 2: Hamas and its ability to continue to attack innocent civilians.
Speaker 2: And I also know that there are some people who
Speaker 2: support a ceasefire who I don't agree with, but who
Speaker 2: also are able to simultaneously condemn Hamas and specifically, most
Speaker 2: importantly call out the anti Semitic ripple effects that we're
Speaker 2: seeing here at all. And so it's figuring out where
Speaker 2: those lines are so that we are separating maliciousness from policy, disagreements,
Speaker 2: from ignorance, and from all of those different pieces. It's
Speaker 2: very easy to conflate everyone who is against us in
Speaker 2: different forms into sort of one big bucket. But at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, if we distinguish between those who,
Speaker 2: for example, support a cease fire but are speaking out
Speaker 2: forcefully against anti semitism, speaking out about the importance of
Speaker 2: Israel and its right to exist, from those who might
Speaker 2: just simply be ignorant and are latching on to the
Speaker 2: easy hashtags and slogans, to those who are indeed malicious
Speaker 2: and are for example, celebrating Hamas's attack as an active
Speaker 2: resistance or celebrating the targeting of Jews to hold them
Speaker 2: accountable for Israel's actions, or anything in between. And so
Speaker 2: how we again really understand that there's complexity there, and
Speaker 2: it's our job to figure out who we are simply
Speaker 2: disagreeing with, who we can educate, who we can bring
Speaker 2: along in a way that expands the base of support,
Speaker 2: not just for Israel in this moment, but specifically.
Speaker 1: Okay, I understand all that, but let's dig a little deeper.
Speaker 1: I constantly hear we hear this from Roger Waters of
Speaker 1: Pink Floyd. I'm not against the Jews, I'm not anti Semitic.
Speaker 1: It's Israel. Whereas those of us who are Jews listen
Speaker 1: to a lot of the comments, say this is inherently
Speaker 1: anti Semitic. It's like people who say, hey, I'm not
Speaker 1: racist and then evidence racist behavior. So yes, you and
Speaker 1: me both agree. You can criticize Israel and its policies
Speaker 1: and not be anti Semitic. But money people are criticizing
Speaker 1: Israel's policies were saying they're not anti semitic, actually are antisemitic.
Speaker 2: Well, this is the entire conversation right now, right, this
Speaker 2: is exactly what we need to be engaging people on.
Speaker 2: Because look, I like a few weeks before October seventh,
Speaker 2: I was proud to speak outside the UN with other
Speaker 2: major Jewish leaders protesting the rollback Act of Democracy in Israel.
Speaker 2: Many people have illustrated how easy it is to criticize
Speaker 2: Israel and Israeli policy without being anti Semitic. It's not
Speaker 2: very hard. The same way we all criticize the American
Speaker 2: government in American policy without fundamentally suggesting that America shouldn't
Speaker 2: exist or engaging in bigoted tropes. What we are seeing
Speaker 2: now is the ways in which Israel and the Jewish
Speaker 2: people are conflated. Jewish people, organizations, and institutions are targeted
Speaker 2: for the actions of the Israeli government. Terms like Zionists
Speaker 2: are used to speak to not simply those who believe
Speaker 2: in a Jewish homeland, but sort of used in nefarious
Speaker 2: ways to perpetuate tropes about Jewish control and power. And so,
Speaker 2: how we help people in this moment understand where that
Speaker 2: line is between criticism of Israel which is and appropriate
Speaker 2: and protect it under the First Amendment. To actual anti
Speaker 2: semitism that directly isolates Jews, leads to violence against Jews,
Speaker 2: and otherwise seeks to marginalize and isolate our community at
Speaker 2: this tenuous moment is really important and that involves a
Speaker 2: lot of hard conversations. It involves helping people understand why
Speaker 2: anti semitism doesn't just harm Jews, but actually harms all
Speaker 2: of us by sowing distrust in our democracy, by sowing
Speaker 2: hatred that can end up targeting so many communities and
Speaker 2: normalizing extremism at such a tenuous time. And so there's
Speaker 2: a lot of work that we have to do in
Speaker 2: that regard. It is specifically the work that we are
Speaker 2: engaged in at JCPA in terms of building those relationships
Speaker 2: between communities to better understand how deeply connected our safety is,
Speaker 2: to better understand, for example, where the line is between
Speaker 2: criticism of Israel and anti semitism, and to understand how
Speaker 2: these conspiracy theories about Jews and Jewish power so often
Speaker 2: times are utilized by extremists of different stripes to sow
Speaker 2: that distrust in our democracy and our society.
Speaker 1: So, to what degree have you personally experienced anti semitism
Speaker 1: in your life and since you've been in these public
Speaker 1: roles in Jewish organizations, has personal anti Semitic attacks upon
Speaker 1: you increased or decreased?
Speaker 2: Well, that is a challenging question. And you know, frankly,
Speaker 2: some of the personal details about my life we're talking
Speaker 2: about are not things they oftentimes share publicly because of
Speaker 2: the very real anti Semitic and extremist threats and security
Speaker 2: concerns I've had because of the nature of my work.
Speaker 2: So before I came on as the CEO of JCPA,
Speaker 2: I led an organization called Integrity First for America who
Speaker 2: brought a lawsuit against the neo Nazis who attacked Charlottesville.
Speaker 2: And as you could imagine, those Neo Nazis were not
Speaker 2: so thrilled that we were holding them accountable in court,
Speaker 2: and it led to some very direct threats against me
Speaker 2: and my family. Letters sent to my home, email, social
Speaker 2: media posts, and others directly targeting me, singing me out,
Speaker 2: posting my photo and other identifying details. In fact, in
Speaker 2: one case, I believe I was actually on my honeymoon.
Speaker 2: I got a call from the FBI saying that they
Speaker 2: had arrested someone who had been threatening me a number
Speaker 2: of years ago. And so this was all fairly new
Speaker 2: and jarring for me when it started. I grew up
Speaker 2: at a time when Jews felt very safe in America.
Speaker 2: My grandparents who had come here after surviving the Holocaust,
Speaker 2: I think, in many ways their hope for their family.
Speaker 2: It felt like it was coming to fruition that Jews
Speaker 2: could live safely and freely in America without real concern
Speaker 2: for our safety in the way that they lived growing up,
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking how lucky I was to live
Speaker 2: at this specific period of time in this country where
Speaker 2: I was safe, and in the last ten years that
Speaker 2: has changed dramatically. You can trace it back to a
Speaker 2: number of incidents. For me, one of the sharpest moments
Speaker 2: was Charlottesville. Was seeing neo Nazis with torches, embold and
Speaker 2: empowered to chant things like Jews will not replace us
Speaker 2: and blood and soil, which is an avowed Nazi slogan,
Speaker 2: and descend on a community, surround a synagogues, around college students,
Speaker 2: and attack people because of who they are and what
Speaker 2: they believe. Much like the last few weeks have really
Speaker 2: exposed a lot of the fissures and challenges that exist
Speaker 2: in a variety of ways. I think Unite the Right
Speaker 2: really was a mask off moment in that violent anti
Speaker 2: Semitism became normalized. It became acceptable in our society in
Speaker 2: a way that was frightening, and that directly helped fuel
Speaker 2: and spur a broader cycle of extremism that targeted not
Speaker 2: just the Jewish community in attacks like the Pittsburgh Synagogu
Speaker 2: shooting and the Poe Jabad shooting, but also the Hispanic
Speaker 2: community in Alpasso, the Black community in Buffalo, and a
Speaker 2: variety of others. And so we've seen this cycle of
Speaker 2: anti Semitism over the last decade or so, particularly the
Speaker 2: last five to six years, in which it's become increasingly normalized,
Speaker 2: increasingly permissible on social media, with very real world consequences.
Speaker 2: And we know that it makes not just Jews unsafe,
Speaker 2: but everyone unsafe because of the ways these conspiracy theories
Speaker 2: operate and directly lead to targeting again not just of
Speaker 2: Jewish people and organizations and institutions, but Black and Hispanic
Speaker 2: and Muslim and other people who are seen as pawns
Speaker 2: or tools of the Jewish community, and so many of
Speaker 2: these conspiracies.
Speaker 1: Now, let's use an analogy of the Me Too movement
Speaker 1: five years ago. As a result of that, men were
Speaker 1: told what they could not say. Most men got the memo.
Speaker 1: But being a man, there are things that are said
Speaker 1: amongst men that are not written down or not publicized.
Speaker 1: So therefore, when you've expressed an anti black sentiment, whether
Speaker 1: you were a sportscaster or other person in the public eye.
Speaker 1: You literally lost your job. So we know that anti
Speaker 1: Semitism has been around for millennia, and we can't sit
Speaker 1: here and eradicate anti semitism with a snap of our fingers. However,
Speaker 1: and let's be point blank here to what degree did
Speaker 1: Trump legitimize the anti Semitism which then added fuel to
Speaker 1: the fire.
Speaker 2: In so many ways. The normalization of anti Semitism that
Speaker 2: we've seen in recent years, and I'll say not just
Speaker 2: anti Semitism, but broader hate fueled violence and extremism, came
Speaker 2: directly from the top. It's not exclusive to Trump. There
Speaker 2: were these challenges and symptoms that existed before him, But
Speaker 2: what he did was effectively give license to it. He
Speaker 2: to tell these extremists, whether they're Neo Nazis in Charlottesville
Speaker 2: or white supremacists targeting Jews synagogue, or white supremacist targeting
Speaker 2: black people or Hispanic people at their supermarkets, that their
Speaker 2: views are permissible, that these conspiracy theories about efforts to
Speaker 2: replace the white race, to change the demographics of our country,
Speaker 2: to otherwise, you know, otherwise engage in these sorts of
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories that we know are fundamentally rooted in anti semitism.
Speaker 2: Trump and a number of other elected officials have effectively
Speaker 2: normalized them in a way that has made it harder,
Speaker 2: sort of put the genie back in the bottle. And
Speaker 2: so we are now going into an election year where
Speaker 2: we know that these conspiracy theories, these lies, this disinformation,
Speaker 2: these efforts to pick communities against what another un weaponize
Speaker 2: anti semitism, are only going to get worse. And it's
Speaker 2: incumbent on everyone, including the media and others, not to
Speaker 2: buy into that framework, not to help further normalize this
Speaker 2: anti semitism in other forms of extremism, because that's precisely
Speaker 2: what the goal is here. And make no mistake that
Speaker 2: it's manifesting in different forms. We see among right wing
Speaker 2: politicians like Trump or voices like Tucker Carlson, this normalization
Speaker 2: of the great replacement theory of other anti Semitic conspiracy theories,
Speaker 2: the ways in which political violence have been directly connected
Speaker 2: to belief in these sorts of conspiracy theories, and in turn,
Speaker 2: that cycle of extremism that's followed from Charlottesville to Pittsburgh
Speaker 2: to Poway and al Paso on Buffalo and January sixth, Then,
Speaker 2: beyond how this intersects with what we're now seeing on
Speaker 2: college campuses and elsewhere, is not that these forms of
Speaker 2: hate are exactly one and the same, but rather the
Speaker 2: marginalization and isolation of Jewish students on college campuses or
Speaker 2: in progressive spaces is because of Israel, because of support
Speaker 2: for Israel or connection to Israel, serves the purpose of
Speaker 2: effectively making it harder for us to build the coalitions
Speaker 2: we need to then take on the increasingly normalized anti
Speaker 2: Semitism and white supremacy we're seeing any other direction, and
Speaker 2: so both of them are deeply dangerous. Both intend to
Speaker 2: isolate and marginalize the Jewish community in different ways, and
Speaker 2: they function differently and require us to confront them differently
Speaker 2: because they are not the same thing, but they are
Speaker 2: in so many ways inextricably linked because of how they
Speaker 2: function and how in particular, what we're now seeing in
Speaker 2: the aftermath of October seventh makes the coalition building and
Speaker 2: the cross community relationships we desperately need in this moment
Speaker 2: to combat increasively normalized extremism that much. Ha.
Speaker 1: Okay, they say there's thirty five percent of the Republican
Speaker 1: Party who are die hard Trumpers. I hear from people
Speaker 1: on the right wing all day, every day, and it's
Speaker 1: very much in us versus them dialogue. The democratic position
Speaker 1: has traditionally been get out and vote. Okay, that's a
Speaker 1: political but anti semitism knows no bounds. How do we
Speaker 1: penetrate those people who are anti Semitic by principle? We
Speaker 1: had an ex president who said, how can I be
Speaker 1: anti Semitic? I have a daughter with Jewish children who
Speaker 1: converted herself, even though there are comments he made that
Speaker 1: would belie that. So what's our hope here?
Speaker 2: Look, I think there's a few things we need to
Speaker 2: do first and foremost. I think it's to step back
Speaker 2: and understand stand how our democratic norms and institutions and
Speaker 2: values have been freed in recent years. And what we're
Speaker 2: seeing is because of social media, because of the normalization
Speaker 2: of extremism. That we were talking about the ways in
Speaker 2: which these things have been giving given license at a platform,
Speaker 2: we needed to actually step back and invest in our
Speaker 2: democratic institutions and our norms. And there's very specific things
Speaker 2: we can do. At JCPA. We are specifically building out
Speaker 2: a democracy coalition that brings together these various pieces whether
Speaker 2: it be the media and digital literacy that we talked
Speaker 2: about earlier, empowering schools and educators and parents to make
Speaker 2: sure people actually know what's real and what's not on
Speaker 2: social media, how they are, how they are digesting what
Speaker 2: they get from social media with a critical eye, critical
Speaker 2: lens because of how much of these this bigotry and
Speaker 2: disinformation spreads that way. It's investing in voting and civil
Speaker 2: rights work to make sure that the fundamental rights we
Speaker 2: prompt us our citizens in this country are protected. It's
Speaker 2: combating book and curriculum bands that are aimed at undercutting
Speaker 2: what students learn and that we know are not just targeting,
Speaker 2: for example, the history of slavery and white supremacy in
Speaker 2: this country, but have also now spilled over into the
Speaker 2: curriculum and bands and Holocaust related books and education. It's
Speaker 2: protecting our elections through the fundamental tenets of civic engagement,
Speaker 2: through poll work and all of that. And so we
Speaker 2: as a society have disinvested from the democratic norms and
Speaker 2: institutions that we know are inherent to keeping communities safe
Speaker 2: into combating the sort of polarization and extremism that you're describing.
Speaker 2: And so if we actually begin to invest in that
Speaker 2: infrastructure if we begin to understand how deeply connected are
Speaker 2: these forms of conspiracy theories and hate are attempts to
Speaker 2: undermine democracy, how they are intentionally utilized to so distrust
Speaker 2: in our democracy, and therefore one of the ways we
Speaker 2: combat them is to build trust in our democracy, to
Speaker 2: build up the infrastructure of our democracy. And so that
Speaker 2: is one thing that all of us can do, no
Speaker 2: matter who we are and where we live, is really volunteer,
Speaker 2: invest in engage in the infrastructure of democracy in our communities.
Speaker 2: It's also important to help people understand how deeply interconnected
Speaker 2: these forms of hate are right now that none of
Speaker 2: them exist in a silo. We see how anti Semitism,
Speaker 2: through these great replacement theories, fuel anti black racism, anti
Speaker 2: immigrant hate, anti Muslim hate, anti LGBTQ hate, and we
Speaker 2: see the cycle of violence fueled by these conspiracy theories
Speaker 2: that have targeted so many different communities around this country,
Speaker 2: no matter who they are, Black, Hispanic, Jews, and so on.
Speaker 2: We also know that in this moment, we are seeing,
Speaker 2: for example, neo Nazis recruit off of the anti LGBTQ,
Speaker 2: anti trans events that we're seeing we're seeing them try
Speaker 2: to utilize the abortion debate to recruit and so all
Speaker 2: of this tells us that our safety is deeply interconnected.
Speaker 2: Even at a moment when we see extremists trying to
Speaker 2: tell us that this is zero sum, that's somehow fighting
Speaker 2: anti Semitism is going to come at the expense of
Speaker 2: the safety of other communities. The fighting Islamophobia is going
Speaker 2: to come out at the expense of Jewish safety or
Speaker 2: other communities safety. And we first need to get out
Speaker 2: of the zero sum framework and understand the tackling hate
Speaker 2: and all forms keeps all of us safe and makes
Speaker 2: all of us safer, and recognize that it's not that
Speaker 2: all of our safety is actually deeply interconnected. At the
Speaker 2: end of the day, and if we are to take
Speaker 2: on any form of hate, it requires taking o all
Speaker 2: of these forms of hate because of the ways in
Speaker 2: which they intersect. At this particularly tenuous moment where conspiracy
Speaker 2: theories rooted in so many different forms of bigotry are
Speaker 2: increasingly normalized.
Speaker 1: So tell me about your volvement and what you did
Speaker 1: in Charlottesville.
Speaker 2: So you know I at the time when Unite the
Speaker 2: Right happened, when the violence in Charlottesville happened. I was
Speaker 2: working in the New York Attorney General's Office, leading communications
Speaker 2: and policy, and it was grateful to be in that office.
Speaker 2: We were on the front lines of a lot of
Speaker 2: the efforts to protect Americans from the policy of this
Speaker 2: of the Trump administration, the Muslim band, peal of doc
Speaker 2: and so many others that were deeply at odds with
Speaker 2: our fundamental civil rights and the values on which this
Speaker 2: country was built. And when Unite the Right happened, it
Speaker 2: really felt like again a mask off moment, when so
Speaker 2: much that had been simmering under the surface, that had
Speaker 2: been emboldened, particularly by the President and others, was all
Speaker 2: of a sudden given license to parade violently down our streets,
Speaker 2: to attack students, to espouse the most viol anti Semitic
Speaker 2: and racist ideas, and then of course to culminate in
Speaker 2: the deadly attack on a community that led to heather
Speaker 2: Hire's death and the injury of so many others. And
Speaker 2: so when some lawyers I knew from my prior work
Speaker 2: reached out and said, hey, we'd we'd like to sue
Speaker 2: the neo Nazis. Are you interested in working We're a.
Speaker 1: Little bit slower at this time, you're no longer working
Speaker 1: in the AG's office.
Speaker 2: I was working in the AG's office and I got
Speaker 2: a call from some of the lawyers who ultimately brought
Speaker 2: the case, Robbie Kaplan and Karen Don, who said, we
Speaker 2: want to sue the Nazis. Are you interested in working
Speaker 2: with us? And I don't know what else I could
Speaker 2: have done in that moment, but say yes, Okay.
Speaker 1: Just to understand, there's an organization Integrity for America. Where
Speaker 1: does that fit into this?
Speaker 2: So Integrity First for America, the organization I ran, was
Speaker 2: created to really support this lawsuit, okay, to serve as
Speaker 2: the vehicle for which we were able to move this
Speaker 2: lawsuit forward. As you can imagine, even with tons of
Speaker 2: pro bono legal work donated legal work, there are many
Speaker 2: expenses related to coordinating a lawsuit of the size. We
Speaker 2: had five law firms across the board.
Speaker 1: That okay, wait, let me let's go. Let's go back
Speaker 1: a little bit slower. You get these calls, you say,
Speaker 1: I'm in what's the next step?
Speaker 2: So I came on as the executive director of Integrity First.
Speaker 2: The lawsuit had been filed on behalf of nine community
Speaker 2: members who were injured in the violence.
Speaker 1: Just a little bit slower. Did you give up your
Speaker 1: job at the AG's office?
Speaker 2: I did so. I did so. I left the AG's office,
Speaker 2: which you know was was was sad because I'm a
Speaker 2: deep believer in the power of state ags and local government.
Speaker 2: But I think to be on the front lines of
Speaker 2: this fight at a moment of rising extremism and anti
Speaker 2: semitism was more meaningful than I probably anticipated it would be.
Speaker 1: Okay, you get the call from the lawyers. Did they
Speaker 1: already have the nine plaintiffs or did you go to
Speaker 1: find the ninth plaintiffs?
Speaker 2: Correct? So, the legal team had been on the ground
Speaker 2: in the immediate aftermath of Unite the Right and had
Speaker 2: connected to a number of folks, ultimately nine Charlottesville community
Speaker 2: members who were injured in the violence. The bravest people
Speaker 2: I know, people who, for example, two friends of Heather
Speaker 2: Hier who had been with her that day marching peacefully
Speaker 2: down the street against white supremacy in their community. Heather,
Speaker 2: of course, was murdered by the car in the car attack.
Speaker 2: Marissa and Marcus were severely injured but survived. People like
Speaker 2: Natalie Romero and Devin Willis, who were UVA students at
Speaker 2: the time University of Virginia students who were first surrounded
Speaker 2: and attacked during the Torch march on Friday night on
Speaker 2: their college campus by a bunch of Nazis, and then
Speaker 2: somehow Natalie also ended up hit directly by the car
Speaker 2: the next day and suffered, among other things, a fractured skull.
Speaker 2: And so nine people all together who had shown up
Speaker 2: to peacefully protest white supremacists descending on their campus, on
Speaker 2: their town and were grievously injured as a result. And
Speaker 2: what became clear very quickly was that what happened was
Speaker 2: no accident. The social media chats that came out in
Speaker 2: the weeks and days after Unite the Rate, including specifically
Speaker 2: chats from the social media site Discord, showed that the
Speaker 2: violence was actually planned long in advance, that there were
Speaker 2: discussions about hitting protesters with cars and then claiming self defense.
Speaker 2: And again what happened was no accident, but rather intended
Speaker 2: to violently attack people based on who they are, their race,
Speaker 2: their religion, and their willingness to stand up for the
Speaker 2: rights with their neighbors. And so that is not speech,
Speaker 2: that is not a clash between different sides. That's a racist,
Speaker 2: anti Semitic violent conspiracy, and we have laws meant to
Speaker 2: protect against that, and specifically, the plaintiffs in the lawsuit
Speaker 2: with our team brought a case under a number of
Speaker 2: federal and state statutes aimed at protecting protecting people's civil
Speaker 2: rights and fundamental rights in the face of violent hate.
Speaker 2: One of these statutes, the Ku Klux Klan Act of
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy one, is precisely what it sounds like, an
Speaker 2: over one hundred and fifty year old statue created to
Speaker 2: protect recently freed slaves from clan violence in the South,
Speaker 2: that has been used a number of times throughout history
Speaker 2: to hold people accountable for their violent extreme and that
Speaker 2: in the year twenty twenty three is somehow having a
Speaker 2: bit of a resurgence because of the uptick in violent
Speaker 2: hate that we've seen. And so this lawsuit, in so
Speaker 2: many ways, really became a preview, not much like the
Speaker 2: Charlottesville violence was, of how you hold accountable violent extremism
Speaker 2: at a time when it was hitting record levels. There's
Speaker 2: so much to say about the case.
Speaker 1: I want to hear. So, Okay, you found the plaintiffs,
Speaker 1: how did you find exactly who to sue?
Speaker 2: Great question? So there was a very lucky break. Early
Speaker 2: on a site called Unicorn Riot, which is a non
Speaker 2: profit journalism site, published these Discord chats, these social media
Speaker 2: chats in which so much of the planning of the
Speaker 2: violence happened. And in these chats they had all these
Speaker 2: different channels illustrating every r engaging people are on everything
Speaker 2: from transper rotation to know what to eat for lunch,
Speaker 2: to weapons to different plans, and from those chats it
Speaker 2: became very clear sort of who was in charge versus
Speaker 2: who was simply their showing up, and ultimately the legal
Speaker 2: team was able to identify twenty four defendants, some of
Speaker 2: them individuals, some of them hate groups names like Richard Spencer,
Speaker 2: who you might know as the guy who coined the
Speaker 2: term alt right and circa twenty seventeen was sort of
Speaker 2: the leading neo Nazi in America, groups like LEGA the South,
Speaker 2: certain KKK groups, National Socialist Movement, Identity Europa and others,
Speaker 2: and specifically using those chats, which again was a lucky break.
Speaker 2: You don't quite you don't really get discovery that early
Speaker 2: in most lawsuits, and of course our team subsequently subpoena
Speaker 2: Discord and other social media sites for the full chats.
Speaker 2: But through those initial leaks we were able to identify
Speaker 2: who these defendants were, who these key organizers were, and
Speaker 2: named them in the lawsuit in a way that unlike
Speaker 2: most litigation, you don't have that level of detail beforehand.
Speaker 1: Okay, you serve these people in organizations. I'm following it
Speaker 1: very externally in the news. What's going on in Virginia
Speaker 1: in the bubble. What was the reaction to the lawsuit.
Speaker 2: Among the neo Nazis are among everybody?
Speaker 1: What did you feel once it was filed? What did
Speaker 1: you see in the landscape?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it became very clear, very quickly that
Speaker 2: Charlottesville wasn't an isolated incident, and so the importance of
Speaker 2: this lawsuit became even more impactful. Right, So, within a
Speaker 2: year of Charlottesville, we had, for example, the Pittsburgh attack,
Speaker 2: in which eleven Jews were murdered in synagogue by a
Speaker 2: white supremacist who a spouse many of the same ideas
Speaker 2: as the neo Nazis in charlottes Fell. A few months later,
Speaker 2: the christ Church attack in New Zealand. A month or
Speaker 2: so after that, the poet attack in California. A few
Speaker 2: months after that, the Al Paso attack and so on,
Speaker 2: and the wiz in which we saw what felt fringe
Speaker 2: in Charlottesville, theas this idea of Jews will not replace us,
Speaker 2: the conspiracy theories, the avowed anti semitism in white supremacy,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden become increasingly normalized and in bolden
Speaker 2: on a national level, and those attacks were happening in
Speaker 2: parallel to elected officials and pundits like Tucker Carlson and
Speaker 2: others giving license to those ideas in mainstream forum. It
Speaker 2: made that lawsuit all of them were important, and so
Speaker 2: at first, you know, there was there was certainly some
Speaker 2: attention when it was filed, But as I started my
Speaker 2: work at Integrity, first it was a little challenging to
Speaker 2: get people to understand why this was something that they
Speaker 2: needed to care about, to support, to engage in. And
Speaker 2: it very quickly became clear that Charlottesviell really was a
Speaker 2: harbinger of all of the extremism that has followed, of
Speaker 2: this increasingly normalized hate and disinformation and bigotry that has
Speaker 2: taken over so much of our political rhetoric and our
Speaker 2: society more broadly, and so having this case not simply
Speaker 2: as a means to hold accountable those responsible for the violence,
Speaker 2: but to put a clear marker down that there will
Speaker 2: be consequences for this sort of bigotry, to create a
Speaker 2: model for what that accountability looks like, which it has
Speaker 2: since become with a number of January sixth then other
Speaker 2: cases modeled on it, and to just really expose and
Speaker 2: lay bare the violence and the hate at the core
Speaker 2: of this movement was deeply important, and it was heartening
Speaker 2: to see people recognize that as the case went on,
Speaker 2: as we went from filing the lawsuit, through the various
Speaker 2: stages including you know, surviving the motion to dismiss in
Speaker 2: which the judge made clear that this was not free
Speaker 2: speech and that free speech doesn't protect violence, and then
Speaker 2: into you know, the pre trial discovery phase when our
Speaker 2: attorneys were traveling the country deposing neo Nazis and otherwise
Speaker 2: moving this case towards trial, which ultimately happened in fall
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell us about the trial.
Speaker 2: So the trial itself was four weeks in Charlottesville, Virginia. Certainly,
Speaker 2: you know, if for me it was impactful and traumatic
Speaker 2: and stressful, I can only imagine what it was like
Speaker 2: for our plaintiffs, these nine people who survived the unthinkable
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen and chose to relive that in service
Speaker 2: of holding accountable the neo Nazis and extremist responsible. No. Notably,
Speaker 2: some of the defendants actually represented themselves, specifically Richard Spencer
Speaker 2: and Chris Cantwell to very prominent neo Nazis, and this
Speaker 2: meant that at this trial they were not represented by
Speaker 2: lawyers and were the ones who were directly not just
Speaker 2: giving their own opening and closing statements, but actually cross
Speaker 2: examining our witnesses, which included the plaintiffs, so cross examining
Speaker 2: the very people whom they attacked. And it became very
Speaker 2: clearly as we expected that those defendants and frankly some
Speaker 2: of the lawyers representing other Neo Nazis, were intent on
Speaker 2: using the trial to try to for further normalize and
Speaker 2: desensitize people to bigotry and hate. They would make Holocaust
Speaker 2: jokes on the stand, they would use the N word
Speaker 2: in court. They would sort of harass and terrorize our
Speaker 2: plaintiffs on the stand, trying to get them to expose
Speaker 2: or dos their friends who they were with. And then
Speaker 2: what side I multaneously have their supporters and social media
Speaker 2: trying to dox these people. And so it was a
Speaker 2: very deliberate effort by these defendants, and in fact, one
Speaker 2: of their lawyers said as much after the trial, to
Speaker 2: really desensitize the jury and all those listening on to
Speaker 2: this sort of hate, to make it seem like this
Speaker 2: is just normal stuff and therefore they shouldn't be held
Speaker 2: accountable for it. But our team put forward, i think
Speaker 2: a very clear and comprehensive recounting of the facts, which
Speaker 2: is that these neo Nazis planned for violence in extensive detail,
Speaker 2: again down to discussions of whether they could hit protesters
Speaker 2: with cars and claim self defense, which is precisely what happened.
Speaker 2: They went to Charlottesville with the intent to engage in
Speaker 2: that violence, they engaged in that violence, leading to Heather
Speaker 2: Hire's death and the injury of so many others, and
Speaker 2: then they celebrated that violence. And so what was heartening
Speaker 2: was that at the end of the day, the jury
Speaker 2: and by the defendant's efforts to desensitize them, and they
Speaker 2: found every defendant liable to the tune of multimillion dollar verdicts.
Speaker 1: Well, needless to say, some of these people were held
Speaker 1: to these multimillion dollar verdicts, but their quasi judgment proof well.
Speaker 2: What was particularly heartening even before trial was the impact
Speaker 2: this has had on the defendants themselves. So people like
Speaker 2: Richard Spencer, who was at the time the most prominent
Speaker 2: neo Nazi in the country, said before trial that this
Speaker 2: case has effectively bankrupted him. Then we've seen how this
Speaker 2: case has marginalized and bankrupt so many key leaders of
Speaker 2: the white supremacist movement who were prominent six years ago
Speaker 2: and now have been wholly sort of pushed to the
Speaker 2: side and diminished in this. And so it shows the
Speaker 2: importance of accountability that if you actually hold these extremist accountable,
Speaker 2: there are very rare consequences even before trial, even before
Speaker 2: the judgments. That being said, the judgments mean that they
Speaker 2: will effectively be followed around for the rest of their lives,
Speaker 2: garnishing wages, putting leans on their home, seizing assets, and
Speaker 2: making it impossible for them to sort of rebuild any
Speaker 2: of the infrastructure that led to this extremism in the
Speaker 2: first place. And so that is really the point of
Speaker 2: litigation like this, to illustrate the consequences. It's not necessarily
Speaker 2: to collect millions and millions and millions of dollars instantaneously.
Speaker 2: And I think our plaintiffs went into this knowing that
Speaker 2: they wouldn't necessarily be getting those millions of dollars instantaneously,
Speaker 2: but rather to make clear the power of accountability and
Speaker 2: consequences at a time when there has been so few.
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned one six and it certainly is direct,
Speaker 1: So you established. Those of us in the legal world
Speaker 1: know to establish a precedent to get a ruling is
Speaker 1: very important. But six there was a lot of attention,
Speaker 1: more than in Charlottesville. We saw it with our own eyes.
Speaker 1: Yet we have people like Tucker Crawlson and others saying, no, really,
Speaker 1: it was just a picnic.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, look, here's the difference between Charlottesville and January sixth.
Speaker 2: There's actually been accountability for January six and so post Charlottesville,
Speaker 2: one of the reasons we thought our lawsuit was so
Speaker 2: important is that the DOJ, which was led by at
Speaker 2: the point Jeff Sessions under Trump, the Trump administration, was
Speaker 2: unlikely to hold accountable those responsible for the violence. And
Speaker 2: that's largely born out. Post January six it's been a
Speaker 2: different ballgame there has actually been, of course, hundreds of
Speaker 2: prosecutions that have come out of what happened that day.
Speaker 2: There have also been civil lawsuits, including I think three
Speaker 2: or four that are explicitly modeled on the Charlottesville case
Speaker 2: that have been moving forward in which the court the
Speaker 2: judge have specifically cited the Charlottesville case that allowing them
Speaker 2: to move forward. And so we've seen sort of much
Speaker 2: broader accountability post January sixth in a way that we
Speaker 2: didn't see after Charlotte's fell, which is important shows us
Speaker 2: that progress is possible, that our systems can work in
Speaker 2: the way that we need them to. But of course,
Speaker 2: as we head into twenty twenty four, rightfully so we're
Speaker 2: hearing many of us are deeply concerned about what next
Speaker 2: year will mean for democracy, for accountability at a time
Speaker 2: when one of the people most directly responsible for January
Speaker 2: six is the leader of a major party and could
Speaker 2: very well take back the White House.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: How we not allow in the coming weeks and months
Speaker 2: these ideas that fuel January sixth in the first place,
Speaker 2: and the idea that it was anything other than an
Speaker 2: act of violent extremism, How we don't allow that to
Speaker 2: become normalized is going to be even more important than ever.
Speaker 2: Telling the story of what happened, what came out of
Speaker 2: the January sixth Commission is so important for that reason.
Speaker 2: Secutions are so important for that reason, and continuing to
Speaker 2: make crystal clear what this actually was, which was not,
Speaker 2: you know, a tourist visit, which was not a picnic,
Speaker 2: which was not a peaceful protest. It was an act
Speaker 2: of violent extremism, and there must be broad accountability for
Speaker 2: that in every sense of the word.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to anti semitism directly. If one
Speaker 1: is a Jew, there's been this great assimilation which you
Speaker 1: referenced earlier. What can you tell a Jew when confronted
Speaker 1: on a personal level with anti Semitism, whether it be
Speaker 1: direct comments to them acts, when it comes up in discussion,
Speaker 1: what should Jews do? Say?
Speaker 2: So, I think it's important to understand where that anti
Speaker 2: semitism is coming from, right, because sometimes anti Semitism is
Speaker 2: avowedly malicious and horrific. It's the swastika on your synagogue,
Speaker 2: it's the it's the snide comment walking down the street
Speaker 2: about your nose or something like that, and other times,
Speaker 2: to sort of where we started this conversation, it's an
Speaker 2: offhand comment about Jews and money or landlords or something
Speaker 2: like that that might not even be meant maliciously. And
Speaker 2: so first and foremost, like with all everything that we're
Speaker 2: talking about here, stepping back and understanding where is this
Speaker 2: coming from and what is the intent, so that we
Speaker 2: can actually address it. In cases of avowed, clear malicious
Speaker 2: anti semitism, I'm not sure it's frankly worth engaging, right,
Speaker 2: but in many cases there is key education and engagement
Speaker 2: that we can do to help people understand why their
Speaker 2: comments are hurtful and further problematic tropes and conspiracy theories
Speaker 2: that make Jews unsafe and the all of us unsafe,
Speaker 2: and understanding how whether it be how criticism of Israel
Speaker 2: can in certain cases morph into about anti semitism, why
Speaker 2: those specific tropes around Jews and money and control can
Speaker 2: further anti semitism, And having those conversations with people who
Speaker 2: are open to learning and hearing actually matters, and everything
Speaker 2: tells us that that sort of one on one engagement
Speaker 2: is most effective as it relates to those issues. I think,
Speaker 2: more broadly the goal of anti Semites is to make
Speaker 2: us feel like we can't live proudly as Jews, and
Speaker 2: our responsibility is to make sure that they don't succeed.
Speaker 2: And so one of the most important things we can
Speaker 2: do is continue to safely and smartly, but still enormously
Speaker 2: proudly leave as Jews, go to cynicgog, go to youth group,
Speaker 2: engage in all of the ways you want to engage
Speaker 2: with your Jewish community, with your Jewish identity, because precisely
Speaker 2: what these are anti semits hope to do with the
Speaker 2: attacks on synagogues, the bomb threats, the swastikas, the broader
Speaker 2: normalized extremism that we're seeing is to make us feel
Speaker 2: like we can't live our lives the way that we're
Speaker 2: supposed to. That is the goal of terrorism, and that
Speaker 2: is the goal of hate. And so one of the
Speaker 2: things that all of us can do is continue to
Speaker 2: lean in proudly and clearly to our Jewish community and
Speaker 2: our Judaism in whichever ways we choose.
Speaker 1: Okay, but let's be very specific. Not me, but someone
Speaker 1: is in a group of people and someone said, uh, oh,
Speaker 1: I jude him down on that. Now, I've been taught
Speaker 1: from day one you immediately speak up, and I do.
Speaker 1: But there are many people who say, Oh, I don't
Speaker 1: want anybody to feel uncomfortable. I have something to lose.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be labeled. This is my business.
Speaker 1: We see this on a macro level, we see it
Speaker 1: on universities. We're afraid to make a statement, But let's
Speaker 1: start with the personal. What should people do in those circumstances?
Speaker 2: Call it out full stop. There is no reason why
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be calling this out, because if we don't
Speaker 2: call it out, it becomes normalized. It's the lack of accountability,
Speaker 2: whether it's on the personal level or the national level,
Speaker 2: to connect the dots between everything we're talking about, that
Speaker 2: has led to hate and bigotry being normalized in this country.
Speaker 2: So all of us have an obligation to call it out.
Speaker 2: We as Jews should absolutely call it out. But the
Speaker 2: hope is also that our neighbors, our colleagues, our friends
Speaker 2: are calling it out, and how we're empowering them to
Speaker 2: understand why something like that is anti semitic, so that
Speaker 2: they can actually speak up on our behalf. And it's
Speaker 2: not just on us to protect our own community, but
Speaker 2: on all of us to protect all of our communities.
Speaker 2: Is going to be even more important in the weeks
Speaker 2: and months ahead, and so I am firmly in the
Speaker 2: camp that it should be called out. We could do
Speaker 2: it in certain cases again and understanding where people are
Speaker 2: coming from, calling people in and helping them understand why
Speaker 2: what they said is problematic, as opposed to automatically assuming
Speaker 2: it came from an entirely malicious place. There are absolutely
Speaker 2: those who are engaging in full fledged malicious anti Semitism
Speaker 2: in this moment, and I think that's a clear red line.
Speaker 2: But there are also those who are inadvertently engaging in
Speaker 2: anti Semitism without fully recognizing what they're doing, without recognizing
Speaker 2: its impact, without recognizing the pain it causes. And we
Speaker 2: can absolutely call it out and engage them.
Speaker 1: But let's go back to the universities, which you've gotten
Speaker 1: a lot of the ink publicity, where the Pen being
Speaker 1: a big example, Harvard being a big example. Where the
Speaker 1: people who run these institutions will condemn everything, but what
Speaker 1: goes on with Israel in Jews or reverse they'll condemn
Speaker 1: is but they'll let anybody else say anything. Now we
Speaker 1: have people like Rowan and Apollo, we're standing up with
Speaker 1: their money. These are big donors. But how do we
Speaker 1: turn things around. Forget the students. We have a lot
Speaker 1: of elderly college presidents who're not standing up for Israel
Speaker 1: and Jews.
Speaker 2: So this has been something I've been, you know, both
Speaker 2: personally and professionally, been thinking a lot about it in
Speaker 2: the last few weeks. And I've been fortunate to be
Speaker 2: a part of a few meetings with the Department of
Speaker 2: Education and the Secretary of Education as part of a
Speaker 2: small group of Jewish leaders who met with him and
Speaker 2: the Second Gentleman a few weeks ago. And there's two
Speaker 2: sides to this point in terms of what we need
Speaker 2: to be doing. There's the support that needs to be
Speaker 2: provided to college campuses for them to understand how they
Speaker 2: are actually creating campuses where students are free to practice religion,
Speaker 2: where we're creating inclusive environments where Jewish students and all
Speaker 2: students feel like they could learn in a safe, sy
Speaker 2: court of environment. And there's a number of things that
Speaker 2: can be done in that regard. But also the flip
Speaker 2: side of that is the pressure point. It's the carrot
Speaker 2: and the stick, and so under Title six, which is
Speaker 2: a civil rights statute, Jews are entitled to be in
Speaker 2: to be in schools, to be in an environment where
Speaker 2: their fundamental rights are protected the same as any other community.
Speaker 2: And if schools are not enforcing those fundamental rights and
Speaker 2: protecting those fundamental rights, it's then on the federal government
Speaker 2: to hold them accountable through these Title six complaints. And
Speaker 2: so specifically, there have been a number of asks by
Speaker 2: those of us in the Jewish community in recent weeks
Speaker 2: to surge resources into the Office of Civil Rights at
Speaker 2: the Department of Ed so that they can more effectively
Speaker 2: and efficiently process these complaints, for them to provide direct
Speaker 2: guidance to universities and colleges in addition to k through
Speaker 2: twelve schools reminding them of their civil rights obligations and
Speaker 2: the seriousness of enforcing Title six, and to make the
Speaker 2: ability to submit a complaint even easier. And so we've
Speaker 2: seen some steps taken from the Department of ED. In fact,
Speaker 2: just before I joined you, I was on a call
Speaker 2: with some Education Department officials where they shared some additional updates,
Speaker 2: including how they, for example, for the first time ever,
Speaker 2: updated the form to specifically make clear that it applies
Speaker 2: to anti semitism to people of Israeli and Palestinian origin,
Speaker 2: or any of the other identities that have very specifically
Speaker 2: been targeted on campuses in the last five weeks. And
Speaker 2: so there's two sides to this coin. There is the
Speaker 2: support that we should be providing to make sure university presidents, administrators,
Speaker 2: faculty are able to create free and inclusive and safe environments.
Speaker 2: And when they can't do that, there is the pressure
Speaker 2: and the accountability that our federal government can undertake to
Speaker 2: ensure that they're living up to their obligations.
Speaker 1: Now, the most influential people in America or celebrities. Celebrities
Speaker 1: seem to take a stand on everything, but this Amy
Speaker 1: Schumer took a stand. She's excoriated every day.
Speaker 2: What do you tell celebrities, Well, I think there are
Speaker 2: many celebrities I've seen taking an important stand on this
Speaker 2: in the last few weeks. I think again, the loudest
Speaker 2: voices tend to get outsized attention, and so those who
Speaker 2: have said the wrong things, who have either not shown
Speaker 2: up in la ship or who have engaged in hateful
Speaker 2: disinformation fuel posts might get outsized attention. But I've seen
Speaker 2: actually a number oflebrities, whether it be signing letters or
Speaker 2: otherwise engaging on this, that have stood up with the
Speaker 2: Jewish community that have stood up for Israel, that have
Speaker 2: said we might not agree with everything Israel is doing,
Speaker 2: we might not agree with this Israeli government, we might
Speaker 2: not agree with every action of the IDF, but we
Speaker 2: can agree that Israel has a right to defend itself,
Speaker 2: that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that the hostages must
Speaker 2: be free, and that the Jewish people in this moment
Speaker 2: are facing very real and severe ripple effects as it
Speaker 2: relates to anti Semitism here in the States. And so
Speaker 2: what it means for celebrities or frankly, anyone to show
Speaker 2: up in allieship with the Jews right now doesn't have
Speaker 2: to necessarily look exactly the same from person to person,
Speaker 2: but rather having those baselines recognizing that we're not expecting
Speaker 2: them to support and agree with the Israeli government or
Speaker 2: everything that the IDF necessarily does. I know, I personally
Speaker 2: do not, but I can still say that I support
Speaker 2: Israel and It's right to defend itself. I'm horrified by
Speaker 2: Hamas and it's brutal terror attack, the hostages absolutely must
Speaker 2: be freed, and that the anti Semitism that is coming
Speaker 2: out of this in massive waves as a result of
Speaker 2: this broader crisis is unacceptable and has no place here.
Speaker 2: And how we engage and empower people to do that,
Speaker 2: to hit those baselines, to make those points, even as
Speaker 2: they might disagree on a variety of different policy issues,
Speaker 2: is going to be most important. And I just hope
Speaker 2: that people will continue to show up and call this
Speaker 2: out because what we're seeing right now is how Jews
Speaker 2: and Jewish institutions and others in the United States are
Speaker 2: being targeted here simply because they're Jewish, under the guise
Speaker 2: of protesting the actions of the Israeli government. And it
Speaker 2: makes having people use their bully pulpits, whether it be
Speaker 2: celebrities or government officials or others, that much more important
Speaker 2: because again, anti Semitism operates in these very insidious ways.
Speaker 2: There's the obvious swastikas on synagogues, but it's these conspiracy theories,
Speaker 2: these coded language, the more insidious ways anti Semitism operates.
Speaker 2: That makes those using their bully pulpit to call it
Speaker 2: out that much more urgent.
Speaker 1: And what about corporations.
Speaker 2: There's so much that corporations can do, so I've been
Speaker 2: engaging with some of them, I've done workshops for some
Speaker 2: of them. There are many of my colleagues who have
Speaker 2: done the same. First and foremost, understanding anti semitism in
Speaker 2: the context of your broader DEI work is important, right
Speaker 2: attacks on Jews, anti Semitism, bigotry, and threats against Jews
Speaker 2: must be understood as part of your broader obligation to
Speaker 2: keep your employees safe full stop. But there's also a
Speaker 2: lot of education and work that needs to be done
Speaker 2: in this moment. Your employees are probably struggling right now.
Speaker 2: I know that for me. I even do this professionally,
Speaker 2: but it's been a really painful five plus weeks. You
Speaker 2: can't escape the and the horror of this moment. First
Speaker 2: with again the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust
Speaker 2: on October seventh, and all of these sort of intergenerational
Speaker 2: trauma that that triggered for so many of us, and
Speaker 2: then the ripple effects of the anti semitism around the
Speaker 2: globe that has all of us fearful and isolated. And
Speaker 2: so corporations, just like universities and so many other entities,
Speaker 2: have a responsibility to make sure that their employees are
Speaker 2: safe at work and hopefully to create environments that address
Speaker 2: this very real pain and fear that many are feeling
Speaker 2: to empower their colleagues to understand what they're going through.
Speaker 2: And this cuts in multiple directions. The Jewish community is
Speaker 2: not alone right now in this pain and fear. We've
Speaker 2: seen very real instances of Islamophobia and anti Arab haid,
Speaker 2: including the murder of a six year old Palestinian American
Speaker 2: boy in Chicago a few weeks ago. And so all
Speaker 2: of these, all of these corporations and any other entity,
Speaker 2: can do a lot to create safer spaces within their offices,
Speaker 2: within their organizations that recognize the challenge of this moment,
Speaker 2: and that seek to make employees feel like they are
Speaker 2: welcome and that their fears and their concerns will be
Speaker 2: heard if there is an incident.
Speaker 1: I grew up my parents constantly talked about anti Semitism
Speaker 1: and where Jews were in the world, and never forget
Speaker 1: your Jewish identity. So, in light of what happened in October,
Speaker 1: where's the light at the end of the tunnel? Where's
Speaker 1: the optimism? Why should I feel upbeat like things are
Speaker 1: going in the right direction? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, look, I find two places for optimism. One again,
Speaker 2: it's easy for the loudest voices to get outsized attention,
Speaker 2: and they write fully should be called out and held accountable,
Speaker 2: as we've been talking about. But for every person who
Speaker 2: has tweeted something heinous and awful or screamed something terrible
Speaker 2: at a protest, there are so many others who have
Speaker 2: either shown up an allyship with our community, who have
Speaker 2: put out statements of support, who have rallied in different
Speaker 2: ways for Israel or for the Jewish community, elected officials,
Speaker 2: state legislative, black caucuses, labor union, so many others who
Speaker 2: are actually out there saying that they stand in solidarity
Speaker 2: with the Jewish people at this moment of deep pain.
Speaker 2: And so we need to keep finding those bright spots
Speaker 2: and amplifying those people who are actually showing up for us,
Speaker 2: because again, the goal of extremist is to make us
Speaker 2: feel like we are isolated and alone, and by you know,
Speaker 2: it's very easy to do so when there are those loud,
Speaker 2: horrific voices out there, and how we actually lift up
Speaker 2: the voices of allyship is our key is key. Second,
Speaker 2: I think, you know, this has really put a fine
Speaker 2: point on just how urgent this crisis is. And I'm
Speaker 2: having conversations that maybe five or six weeks ago wouldn't
Speaker 2: have been possible with people who are understanding that they
Speaker 2: need to do more and do better on anti semitism
Speaker 2: in its various forms, that are looking for ways to
Speaker 2: actually invest in and rebuild the sort of the broader
Speaker 2: work on anti Semitism that we need, and I think
Speaker 2: specifically sort of from my purchase JCPA, the community relations
Speaker 2: that we know are inextricably linked with the broader fight
Speaker 2: against anti semitism. If we are not in deep relationship
Speaker 2: with our neighbors, educating, empowering, talking to them about anti semitism,
Speaker 2: their obligation to fight it, and how the anti Semitism
Speaker 2: makes all of us less safe, all of our communities,
Speaker 2: our democracy less safe and less stable, it's harder to
Speaker 2: expect these people to be showing up for us in
Speaker 2: moments like this, And so I'm having conversations with people
Speaker 2: who are seeing the importance of this work for the
Speaker 2: first time, who are seeking to work with us to
Speaker 2: build coalitions. As we head into twenty twenty four and
Speaker 2: we know that so much is on the line for
Speaker 2: so many of our communities, there's actually an opportunity to
Speaker 2: rebuild and strengthen some of these relationships between communities that
Speaker 2: might have been freed or strained in the last few weeks,
Speaker 2: because we know that with so much at stake, we
Speaker 2: have no obligation but continue to build coalitions and find
Speaker 2: ways to work together however possible. There are certainly red
Speaker 2: lines there. There are people who have I think, made
Speaker 2: crystal clear that this is not about disagreement on Israel,
Speaker 2: but rather clear and explicit anti semitism, and I don't
Speaker 2: see it a way for us to work with those people.
Speaker 2: But I think that for the vast majority of Americans,
Speaker 2: for the vast majority of partners, we are able to
Speaker 2: find a path forward that recognizes our shared future and
Speaker 2: our safety is being inextricably linked. Because again, going into
Speaker 2: next year, with democracy at stake, with extremism increasingly normalized,
Speaker 2: we have no obligation but to build those coalitions and
Speaker 2: to find those paths forward.
Speaker 1: Well, Amy, you're certainly a bright spot doing God's work. Literally,
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for taking this
Speaker 1: time with my audience.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob Left says