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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Set's podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Amy SPITTALNI, CEO of the Jewish

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Speaker 1: Council for Public Affairs. Amy, what is the Jewish Council

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Speaker 1: for Public Affairs?

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Bob. JCPA. The Jewish

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Speaker 2: Council for Public Affairs is a nearly eighty year old

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Speaker 2: organization that is really rooted in the recognition that Jewish

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Speaker 2: safety is strongest in communities where we have deep relationships

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Speaker 2: with our neighbors, where we have inclusive democracy, and where

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Speaker 2: those lines of communication and relationship are open, all in

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Speaker 2: service of the sort of inclusive, pluralistic society we know

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Speaker 2: Jews have really been safest in throughout history.

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Speaker 1: Okay in English? What is the JCPA?

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Speaker 2: So, what this means in practice is that we work

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Speaker 2: with one hundred and twenty five Jewish Community Relations councils

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Speaker 2: around the country, empowering, engaging them, and working with national

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Speaker 2: partners as well on building those sorts of cross community

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Speaker 2: relationships on issues related to democracy and fighting anti Semitism

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Speaker 2: and fighting other forms of hate. Recognizing that at this

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Speaker 2: moment we are seeing unprecedented threats to our community's safety

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Speaker 2: unprecedented threats to our democracy, and that to mobilize effectively

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Speaker 2: against all of them requires building coalitions across communities to

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Speaker 2: do that as strongly and effectively as possible.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how is your job and your efforts changed from

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Speaker 1: before October seventh and after October seventh?

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Speaker 2: So you know, I started this job full time on

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Speaker 2: September fifth, and we knew it was going to be

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Speaker 2: a challenging job. Regardless prior work, I had been really

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Speaker 2: focused on fighting extremism and increasingly normalized anti Semitism, in

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Speaker 2: white supremacy and other forms of hate, and certainly going

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Speaker 2: into this role, we knew that all of those factors

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Speaker 2: were front and center and top of mind for many

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Speaker 2: in the Jewish community, and building relationships across communitys were

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Speaker 2: particularly crucial to taking on this crisis. October seventh, of course,

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Speaker 2: only made that more urgent. It has, in so many

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Speaker 2: ways put a fine point on just how tenuous this

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Speaker 2: situation is for the Jewish community in America right now,

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Speaker 2: for so many other communities, and it has really created

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Speaker 2: a crisis in which we've seen extremists seek to exploit

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Speaker 2: what's happening in Israel and Gaza to further tear communities apart,

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Speaker 2: make Jews and others feel isolated in this moment, and

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Speaker 2: make the sort of cross community relationships that we know

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Speaker 2: that are at the core of our work at Chasepa

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Speaker 2: and core to jew or safety feel less attainable than ever.

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Speaker 2: And so we have to work infinitely harder to keep

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Speaker 2: these relationships strong, to keep them frankly open in the

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Speaker 2: first place right now, and ensure that we are not

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Speaker 2: losing sight of all of the threats that we are

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Speaker 2: facing as a community, even as we grapple with the

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Speaker 2: immediate crisis post October seventh, which again, in so many

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Speaker 2: ways really just exposed and exacerbated so much of what

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Speaker 2: we already knew to be true.

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Speaker 1: So why does everybody hate the Jews?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, it's important to understand anti semitism right. Anti

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Speaker 2: Semitism is unlike so many other forms of bigotry. It

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Speaker 2: functions as a form of prejudice or bias in and

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Speaker 2: of itself, and that alone, of course, leads to attacks

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Speaker 2: against Jews simply because they're Jews. But unlike other forms

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Speaker 2: of religious or racial or ethnic bigotry, anti Semitism also

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Speaker 2: operates as an overarching conspiracy theory rooted in lies and

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Speaker 2: tropes about Jewish power and influence, and so because it

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Speaker 2: functions that way, it serves to not just operate as

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Speaker 2: you know, disdain, but actually allows it to apply to

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Speaker 2: virtually any circumstance in which something bad is happening and

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Speaker 2: someone needs to be blamed, right, whether it is whether

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Speaker 2: it is you know, the idea of the changes happening

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Speaker 2: to our country, the demographic changes that some on the

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Speaker 2: far right are seeking to pin on the Jewish community.

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Speaker 2: This idea of Jews will not replace us or the

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Speaker 2: American government support for Israel in this moment which many

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Speaker 2: want to pin on Jewish power and influence rather than

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Speaker 2: necessarily American interests the region, there needs to be some

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Speaker 2: sort of puppet master or h or uh control, someone

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Speaker 2: controlling and pulling the strengths. And so the way that

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Speaker 2: antisemitiism functions in this way, as this conspiracy theory allows

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Speaker 2: it to take root and manifest in so many different

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Speaker 2: circumstances that are in some cases tied to specific ideologies

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Speaker 2: and in other cases totally removed from the ideological spectrum,

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Speaker 2: and operate simply as as these sorts of conspiracy theories

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Speaker 2: targeting Jews.

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Speaker 1: But you know, if the Jews have all the money.

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Speaker 2: If that were true, I don't know. I would have

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Speaker 2: a bigger apartment, I think.

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Speaker 1: But what do you know? These are tropes that you

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Speaker 1: hear in a regular basis. Your job is fighting anti semitism.

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Speaker 1: So someone says the Jews have all the money. What's

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Speaker 1: the response to that.

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Speaker 2: Well, it gets It's much more complicated than that, right, So,

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Speaker 2: we have a number of anti Semitic tropes that have,

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Speaker 2: according to research from the EDL and others, definitely become

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Speaker 2: more prevalent in recent years. We've seen these increase from

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Speaker 2: a handful small percentage of Americans buying into these anti

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Speaker 2: Semitic troops ten years ago to a much more significant

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Speaker 2: portion buying into five six anti semitic tropes at any

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Speaker 2: given time. And so what that tells us is that

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Speaker 2: there has been this sort of normalization of anti semitism.

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Speaker 2: In some cases, it manifests in the tropes that you

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Speaker 2: just talked about. And I will say, it's not even

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Speaker 2: necessarily meant maliciously in certain cases, right, some people are

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Speaker 2: simply saying. Some people sort of see these tropes as compliments,

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Speaker 2: and how we engage people in understanding that when you

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Speaker 2: talk about Jewish money, when you talk about Jewish power

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Speaker 2: and control, it can easily be perceived or shape shift

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Speaker 2: into more explicitly anti Semitic tropes that further these harmful

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Speaker 2: narratives and that make Jews unsafe. And so what we

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Speaker 2: have seen be most effective in actually addressing some of

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Speaker 2: these are actually one on one conversations where we're helping

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Speaker 2: people understand why something like that furthers the broader conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theories and narratives that we know make Jews and frankly

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Speaker 2: all of us less safe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say we're having a one on one

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Speaker 1: conversation and I say, but Jews have all the money.

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Speaker 1: What do you say?

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Speaker 2: That is rooted in longstanding, age old anti Semitic tropes

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Speaker 2: related to Jews and power. The Historically, many have tried

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Speaker 2: to pin financial control and other forms of power on

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Speaker 2: the Jewish community as a means to scapegoat the Jewish

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Speaker 2: community for the ills of society. And when we talk

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Speaker 2: about Jews as having all of this control, having all

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Speaker 2: of this money, having all of this financial power, it

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Speaker 2: only seeks to reinforce these tropes and the broader conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theories that they fuel making Jews less safe and brought

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Speaker 2: more broadly, fueling distrust in our democracy and in our

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Speaker 2: society in a way that makes all of us less safe.

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Speaker 1: But where does it come from, Why does everybody think

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Speaker 1: Jews have all this money?

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Speaker 2: Well, it comes from these age old anti Semitic tropes

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Speaker 2: and narratives that have been around for millennia at this point,

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Speaker 2: going back to you know, to Shylock, going back to

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Speaker 2: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and everything in between,

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Speaker 2: in which Jews were really painted as as people who

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Speaker 2: used the financial system, who used power to effectively control things,

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Speaker 2: to influence things.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 2: It is deeply connected to those millennia old manifestations of

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Speaker 2: anti Semitism are deeply connected to what we see today.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing new under the sun when it comes to

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Speaker 2: anti Semitism, but rather it is just manifesting in new,

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Speaker 2: specific ways tied to the issues of the moment, whether

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Speaker 2: it be those who are talking about Jewish efforts again

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Speaker 2: to change the demographics of our country or to support Israel,

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Speaker 2: or to otherwise connect the dots to what they believe

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Speaker 2: to be what they believe to be the ills of

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 1: Okay, if you go back one hundred years ago, Blacks

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Speaker 1: and Jews were aligned in America, there's suddenly, well not suddenly,

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Speaker 1: there was eventually a bifurcation about fifty sixty years ago.

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Speaker 1: What is that tension between black people and Jews about?

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Speaker 2: I would argue that there isn't actually attention there. There

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Speaker 2: are many who want us to feel like that there's

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Speaker 2: feel like there's attention there, when in fact, we know

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Speaker 2: societies in which black people in which Jewish people are safe,

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Speaker 2: are safer societies for everyone, and that the advancement of

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Speaker 2: civil rights, the fight against extremism, against racism, against anti

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Speaker 2: semitism are all inextricably linked. And so that there are

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Speaker 2: many across the political spectrum who seek to tear communities apart,

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Speaker 2: who think that by pitting our communities against each other,

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Speaker 2: by painting the safety of one community as zero sum,

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Speaker 2: and that the rights the advancement of any one community

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Speaker 2: comes at the expense of another community, it makes it

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Speaker 2: harder for us to actually be in solidarity with one

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Speaker 2: another and advance the broader framework that we know necessary

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Speaker 2: to all of us being safe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, well, let's cut through the BS so subsequent

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Speaker 1: to the war, there are a number of organizations of

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Speaker 1: Black Life Matters that didn't necessarily represent every Black person

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Speaker 1: in America or even everybody in that organization who literally

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Speaker 1: came out in favor of the Palestinians and against the Jews.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that the African Americans and the

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Speaker 1: Jews are aligned under those circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Again, I think that there are extremest voices in specific communities,

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Speaker 2: including some of those statements that you're referencing, that are

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Speaker 2: not reflective of the entire community that went to extreme positions,

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Speaker 2: positions that I find abhorrent in terms of labeling hamas

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Speaker 2: as active terror as active resistance, but again, are not

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Speaker 2: representative where the vast majority of the community actually is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's switch. So we had these Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matters protests across a maria across the world in the

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Speaker 1: wake of what happened in Minnesota. But other than in

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Speaker 1: France the other day, where one hundred thousand people came

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Speaker 1: to march, we don't see an equivalent march for Jews

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Speaker 1: against anti Semitism. Why not.

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Speaker 2: I'm headed to DC tomorrow for a massive march against

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Speaker 2: anti Semitism and support of Israel, and so I expect

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Speaker 2: there will be tens of thousands of people there with me,

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Speaker 2: and that they'll come from a variety of different communities.

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Speaker 2: It's there are a lot of people who have shown

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Speaker 2: up in very different ways over the last five weeks.

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Speaker 2: It's very easy to feel like we are isolated and

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Speaker 2: alone right now, and there are very good reasons too.

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Speaker 2: There are many who are trying to make the Jewish

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Speaker 2: community feel as if there is no one standing with us,

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Speaker 2: and the loudest voices who are spreading that sort of bikertry,

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Speaker 2: including some of the statements that you reference, are getting

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Speaker 2: outsized attention. But if you actually look at who's showing up,

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Speaker 2: from government officials, elected officials from the federal, state and

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Speaker 2: local levels, to community partners, there are many people who

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Speaker 2: have actually come and stood with the Jewish community, who

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Speaker 2: has spoken out against Tamas's terror attack, who've demanded the

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Speaker 2: release of the hostages, who have specifically called out rising

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Speaker 2: anti semitism and hate in this moment. And so what

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Speaker 2: we need to be doing is continuing to empower and

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Speaker 2: amplify those voices that are speaking out for us, that

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Speaker 2: are showing up in allyship in whatever form that takes,

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Speaker 2: in the form of statements, in the forms of showing

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Speaker 2: up at marches and pro Israel and protests against anti Semitism,

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Speaker 2: in the form of building relationships across communities, recognizing that

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Speaker 2: even in this moment, we are not going to necessarily

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Speaker 2: agree with all of our neighbors about the policy solutions

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Speaker 2: to these early Palestinian conflict, but that we can agree

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Speaker 2: that the rising anti Semitism we're seeing the ripple effects

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Speaker 2: of this conflict from anti Semitism to that the Islamophobian,

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Speaker 2: anti Arab hate targeting those communities is a crisis for

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Speaker 2: all of us, and we need to be working together

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Speaker 2: to mitigate it. And so there are people who are

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Speaker 2: absolutely showing up, not nearly as many as some of

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Speaker 2: us would have hoped, but it's important not to lose

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Speaker 2: sight of that because it's precisely what extremists want is

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Speaker 2: to make Jews feel isolated and alone. In this moment.

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Speaker 1: What is BBS.

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Speaker 2: BDS is boycott's divestments and sanctions of Israel.

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Speaker 1: And who is behind BDS just the kids on campus,

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Speaker 1: other people in America. What is delivering its.

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Speaker 2: Strength BDS is more of a movement, so it's hard

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Speaker 2: to say that any one individual or group is behind it.

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Speaker 2: It there are a number of organizations, students, others who

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Speaker 2: support the BDS movement. As you can imagine, I oppose

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Speaker 2: the BDS movement. It's a tool that some are using

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Speaker 2: to try to effectively put pressure on Israel when Israel

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Speaker 2: is directly isolated and treated uniquely, treated differently than any

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Speaker 2: other country. It of course raises specific issues and concerns,

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Speaker 2: and so there are many who, of course oppose the

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Speaker 2: BDS movement for that reason.

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Speaker 1: Is or is not the BDS movement supported by the

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Speaker 1: Palestinians in ways that are not obvious, both financially in

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Speaker 1: terms of direction.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I understand the question.

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Speaker 1: Well, Noah Tishby basically says another commentator in this sphere

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Speaker 1: that BDS is not as benign as it looks on

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Speaker 1: the surface, that it's an active organization funded and directed

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Speaker 1: by Palestinians in the Middle East. Is that something you

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Speaker 1: agree with?

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Speaker 2: I do not know who's funding the BBS movement. This

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Speaker 2: is not my area of expertiation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, then let's move on from that. So why

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Speaker 1: all of this Jew hate an anti Israel sentiment on

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Speaker 1: college campuses at this time.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know I was. I was a student leader

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Speaker 2: when I was in college over fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 1: At this well, well, well, slow down, said on where'd

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Speaker 1: you go to college? And what exactly did being a

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Speaker 1: student leader mean?

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Speaker 2: So I went to Tufts University in Boston, and I

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Speaker 2: was the president of Hillel on campus, the Jewish student organism.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go back before that. So where did you

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Speaker 1: grow up? Up?

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Speaker 2: In New York?

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Speaker 1: But New York, New York City, the suburbs.

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Speaker 2: I grew up on Long Island. Although I try to

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Speaker 2: mask my accent, you.

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Speaker 1: Do a good job of that. Did you grow up

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Speaker 1: in one of the so called five towns?

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Speaker 2: Not far from there, but not in one of them?

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Speaker 1: Okay? But the reason I bring that up is you

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Speaker 1: grew up in an environment where there was a strong

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Speaker 1: Jewish presence.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Look, I grew up in a heavily Jewish area.

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Speaker 2: I was the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, very Jewishly connected,

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Speaker 2: going to synagogue every Saturday, going to Hebrew School. Even

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Speaker 2: after my butmtz By going to what was called Hebrew

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Speaker 2: High School for continuing education. And so even though I

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Speaker 2: went to public school, Jewish education, Jewish engagement was front

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Speaker 2: and center in my life, and so it very much

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Speaker 2: I think shaped everything I did, even if I resisted

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Speaker 2: it at times. And clearly now I'm running a Jewish organization.

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Speaker 2: And perhaps if you had told me decades ago that

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Speaker 2: this is what I would be doing, I might not

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Speaker 2: have believed you. But the ways in which that Jewish

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Speaker 2: upbringing has shaped my path has become pretty clear in

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Speaker 2: recent years.

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Speaker 1: How many kids in the family.

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Speaker 2: I was one of two and the older. I'm the

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Speaker 2: older sibling and went to school at Toughts.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me, what does your sibling do?

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Speaker 2: She works in marketing, so.

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Speaker 1: She has nothing professionally, She's not in this sphere.

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Speaker 2: Correct. She is, of course jewishly engaged in her own way.

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Speaker 2: But I am the maybe call it a massachist, the

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Speaker 2: person who decided to become a professional Jew in my day. Jab.

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Speaker 1: Okay, your parents? What did your parents do for work?

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Speaker 2: Both my parents were New York City public school teachers,

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Speaker 2: and I think in many ways that really shaped my

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Speaker 2: outlook on the world as well. I remember them coming

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Speaker 2: home frustrated with the state of the city. They were

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Speaker 2: in New York City Public schools and queens, and you know,

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Speaker 2: frustrated with funding, frustrated with their contract disagreements that they

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Speaker 2: were having from the city, And it really, in so

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Speaker 2: many ways put me on a path in terms of

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Speaker 2: public service and government. And so seeing that firsthand, it

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Speaker 2: really I think influenced my outlook on the world, the

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Speaker 2: ways in which government could be a tool for good

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Speaker 2: or for bad, and the impact that, in particular, local

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Speaker 2: government could have in a sort of an outsized way

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Speaker 2: on people's lives. And I spent a good portion ended

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Speaker 2: up spending a good portion of my career in state

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Speaker 2: and local government, partially because of the impact I saw

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Speaker 2: it have on the day to day of my own parents'

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Speaker 2: lives teaching for decades in the New York City public schools.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're obviously very dedicated to the cause. Are you

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Speaker 1: an outlier or you following in the jet stream of

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Speaker 1: your parents? Were they as active and involved going to

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Speaker 1: synagogue Jewish causes as you are?

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Speaker 2: My mom, perhaps more so than my dad. You know,

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Speaker 2: my mom's parents are Holocaust survivors, and when they came

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Speaker 2: to the United States and had my mom, I think

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Speaker 2: it was important for them to be Jewishly connected because

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Speaker 2: they were persecuted, they watched their entire families be killed

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Speaker 2: simply because they were Jewish, and so to come here

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Speaker 2: to a place where they could practice that religion freely

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Speaker 2: and openly in whatever form that took felt important, and

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Speaker 2: so that Jewish connection ran I think throughout that side

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Speaker 2: of my family and directly in many ways, sort of

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Speaker 2: shaped how I grew up. And the fact that synagogue,

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Speaker 2: that Jewish engagement, that the sort of social action side

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Speaker 2: of Judaism was such a big piece of the puzzle.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, again, it manifested in different ways

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Speaker 2: for different members of my family, but I think at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, so much of it feels

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Speaker 2: rooted in our own family history and the need and

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Speaker 2: the desire to feel like we are creating and living

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Speaker 2: a better life here than what my grandparents escaped from

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Speaker 2: not that long ago.

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Speaker 1: I see a stroller in the background, will tend to

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Speaker 1: indicate you have a baby. This is audio only your

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Speaker 1: significant other. Are they Jewish?

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Speaker 2: They're not, But we are raising our child Jewish, and

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Speaker 2: I think is very you know, our family has very much,

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Speaker 2: I think been rooted in so many of the values

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Speaker 2: of Judaism in shaping how we live our lives, our

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Speaker 2: responsibility to make things better, to leave the world a

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Speaker 2: little better for the next generation, to know everything from

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Speaker 2: the Jewish traditions that are a day to day part

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Speaker 2: of our lives to I think those overarching values, and

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Speaker 2: it has been really meaningful to sort of see that

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Speaker 2: all come together, having our first child and passing that

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Speaker 2: on and experiencing that with them in new ways.

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Speaker 1: Who performed the wedding ceremony.

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Speaker 2: A dear friend of mine from college who's a rabbi.

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Speaker 2: We were on the Hillel student board together. She married

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Speaker 2: us and it was incredibly meaningful. It is particularly fun

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Speaker 2: to see your friends become rabbis because it didnotes some

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Speaker 2: sort of level of wisdom and expertise, which they absolutely have.

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Speaker 2: But when you knew them when they were nineteen, it's

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Speaker 2: funny to juxtapose those two things.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I certainly heard from a young age that I

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Speaker 1: should marry a Jewish person. I've been married once the

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Speaker 1: person converted to their own volition. How did you feel

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Speaker 1: when you fell in love with somebody who wasn't Jewish.

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Speaker 2: I did not expect to be talking about this. For me,

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Speaker 2: it's always about how you live your life. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think that anyone could necessarily argue that I'm not

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Speaker 2: living a Jewish life, given what I've done professionally and

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Speaker 2: given what I'm doing personally. And so for me, it

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Speaker 2: was really about, you know, there was no question there

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Speaker 2: if this was the person I'm supposed to be with,

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Speaker 2: if they were open to raising my child, our child Jewish,

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Speaker 2: if they were open to the Jewish values and practices

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Speaker 2: that were important to me, That's all that mattered. And

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Speaker 2: my partner is very much so open to that, engaged

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Speaker 2: in that. You know, we go to tat Shabat and

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Speaker 2: all of the fun things that come with being the

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Speaker 2: parent of a young, young Jewish child in New York

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Speaker 2: and and that has been incredibly meaningful to see.

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Speaker 1: And what does your significant other do for a living?

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Speaker 2: He worked, He's a longtime journalist who has now moved

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Speaker 2: into sort of the tech and anti disinformation space.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the reason to bring all this up is many

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Speaker 1: people believe that it will cease being Judaism on the

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Speaker 1: planet as a result of intermarriage. I even see this

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Speaker 1: in the next generation of my sister's kids. Do you

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Speaker 1: have a take on that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we need to be in. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to change the fact that Jews are intermarrying.

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Speaker 2: That is a very real part of the reality of

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Speaker 2: American Jews in particular. The question is how are we

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Speaker 2: engaging those people and those couples and families so that

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Speaker 2: they stay Jewishly connected, And that could take a variety

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Speaker 2: of arms. It could take the form of religious tradition

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Speaker 2: and practice the holidays, engaging them through synagogue. It can

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Speaker 2: be engaging through Jewish values on social action and advocacy.

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Speaker 2: It could be making sure that we are just simply

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Speaker 2: creating spaces for intermarried couples, inter faith couples to grapple

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Speaker 2: with the very real questions and challenges that so can

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Speaker 2: come up in those relationships. And so we're never going

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Speaker 2: to stop the fact that We're never going to stop

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Speaker 2: the fact of intermarriage, particularly here in America. But what

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Speaker 2: we can do is make sure that we are not

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Speaker 2: losing people from being engaged Jewishly because we've made them

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Speaker 2: feel unwelcome in the community simply because they are intermarried.

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Speaker 1: On the other end of the spectrum, there are very

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Speaker 1: Orthodox people. We're having a lot of children saying that

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Speaker 1: they're saving the religion. But if one pays attention to

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Speaker 1: the media. There's a lot of stories that these kids

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Speaker 1: are going to yeshiva's, are not fully educated, that in

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Speaker 1: certain communities they're taking over the school boards, they're getting

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Speaker 1: a disproportionate amount of welfare. What is your response to that?

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Speaker 1: How do you know that's not a good image for

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Speaker 1: Jews in general?

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Speaker 2: Look, the Jewish community is remarkably diverse. It includes everyone

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Speaker 2: from Hasidic Ardi Jews. I live in Brooklyn, which is

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Speaker 2: perhaps one of the most diverse cross sections of the

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Speaker 2: Jewish community in the world, from Salt Mars and Assitic

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Speaker 2: Jews and Williamsburg and Borough Park to Orthodox Conservative, reform Reconstructionist,

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Speaker 2: unaffiliated Jews. And how we are understanding the fact that

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Speaker 2: this Jewish, that the Jewish community is inclusive of all

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Speaker 2: of these different means of practice, that there is not

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Speaker 2: one single type of Jew that is the correct Jew

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Speaker 2: or the right Chew. And in fact, we're seeing deliberate

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Speaker 2: efforts by some including I would argue politicians who traffic

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Speaker 2: and anti Semitic troops tropes to specifically distinguish between good

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Speaker 2: and bad Jews, to say that some Jews are loyal

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Speaker 2: and good to certain politicians, to the same of Israel

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Speaker 2: or otherwise, and some are not, And that for me

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Speaker 2: tells me we have we are. It is more urgent

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Speaker 2: than ever that we take a broad view of what

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Speaker 2: the Jewish tent is and do everything in our power

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Speaker 2: to keep that broad, to keep that inclusive, to make

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Speaker 2: sure that we are welcoming people in from a broad

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Speaker 2: array of Jewish backgrounds. That doesn't mean that, of course,

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Speaker 2: we don't need to be ensuring yeshivas are teaching important

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Speaker 2: secular skills in other curriculum. It doesn't mean that there

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Speaker 2: aren't social service needs and challenges that we need to

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Speaker 2: grapple with and support the community in addressing. But it

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Speaker 2: is important that we, truly, I think, embrace and support

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Speaker 2: the diversity of the Jewish community. There are so few

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Speaker 2: of us in this world that we should never be

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Speaker 2: leaving a single person on the table simply because we

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Speaker 2: disagree with how they practice their Let's.

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00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: Go back to Tufts. I went to college at Middlebury College,

440
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: small college in Vermont.

441
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: Now this is long behind part of the NEZCAC. The

442
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: New England small college.

443
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: Athletics absolutely listen to you. Although the sports were not

444
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: such a big deal when I went there, they are now.

445
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: But the reason I mention this is because forty five

446
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: percent of the students were from prep schools and growing

447
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: up in a suburb in Connecticut. Although Jews were far

448
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: from the majority, there was an overall Jewish feeling that

449
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: I did not feel in college. Certainly, Tufts has more Jews,

450
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: But to what degree was it a difference going from

451
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: your enclaveon on Long Island to Malden, mass and being

452
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: itself's Yeah, look for me.

453
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: It was in so many ways both very similar and

454
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: deeply different. So in terms of its similarities, I think

455
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: both Long Island and Tufts have pretty significant Jewish populations.

456
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: I used to be a campus tour guide. I believe

457
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: the percentage I would share on my tours was Tuffs

458
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: was twenty seven percent Jewish at the time I was there,

459
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: So it was not a small population considered. You know,

460
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: we are two percent of the American population. Twenty seven

461
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: percent of Tufts hellel which was the Jewish student group

462
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: I led, was I believe the largest student group on

463
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: campus at one point, or one of the largest student groups.

464
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: So it was a community that, again I think was

465
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: quite diverse in terms of you know, religious practice and

466
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: engagement and in many ways, I think, you know, aligned

467
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: with where I grew up in terms of having a

468
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: strong and large Jewish community. Where it really differed in

469
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: where it opened my eyes, which was understanding the ways

470
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: in which everything else I was doing in college, the

471
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: active citizenship. I was a political science major, I spent

472
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: a year studying in Israel. It helped me really can

473
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: the dots between the different parts of my identity with

474
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: my Judaism, Understanding that Judaism wasn't simply you know, going

475
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: to synagogue or going to Shabbat services on the weekend,

476
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: wasn't simply celebrating the holidays, but also really doing the

477
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: hard work of advocacy and active citizenship and engagement of

478
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: understanding Israel on the conflict of being engaged in these

479
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: issues in a way that for me was so eye opening,

480
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: having really not spent time learning or thinking about so

481
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: many of them before then, and so to be able

482
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: to sort of connect the dots between my Jewish identity

483
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: and my career path right the values that I wanted

484
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: to that I wanted to live was particularly unique to

485
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: my experience at Toughs and something I'm deeply grateful for actually.

486
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so I interrupted you with his backstory. You were

487
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: talking about being ahead of Hillel at toughs.

488
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, when I was a student. I graduated

489
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: over fifteen years ago, But when I was a student,

490
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: it felt like we could actually have constructive conversations about

491
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: Israel on campus. There wasn't always agreement, things didn't always

492
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: end in kumbaya, but I think we were generally able

493
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: to have challenging conversations in a way that felt meaningful

494
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: and constructive. In the years since, it seems like that

495
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: has gone out the window college campus, as much like

496
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: our politics and society more broadly, have become even more polarized,

497
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: and in particular, it feels like the ways in which

498
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: Jewish students or students who support Israel have been isolated

499
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: on college campuses is one of the greatest symptoms of that.

500
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: We are seeing just a level of sort of irrational

501
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: hatred and targeting and isolation of Jewish students related to

502
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: the Israel conversation that is unlike anything I ever experienced

503
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: when I was a student, and frankly anything that we've

504
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: seen in a number of the years in between the

505
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: last five to six weeks since October seventh have really

506
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: been a masks off movement where we've seen just vile,

507
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: vitriolic anti Semitism manifest in new explicit ways on college

508
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: campuses under the guise of protesting Israel. This doesn't mean

509
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: that there isn't very real conversations and debate to have

510
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: and how we best distinguished between people's right to free

511
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: speech to criticize the Israeli government to oppose is Israel's

512
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: actions with that are in turn directly targeting the Jewish

513
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: community simply for being Jewish or holding them accountable for

514
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 2: Israel's actions is going to be all the more important

515
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: in the weeks ahead because we're seeing those lines blurred

516
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: in so many cases and it's making students unsafe.

517
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: So what change to cause this?

518
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: It's you know, I've been deep and polled ATA over

519
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: the last five or so weeks since October seventh, and

520
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: every poll and every survey tells us that the biggest

521
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: issue and the places where we have the most challenge

522
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: in terms of anti Semitism, in terms of anti Zionism,

523
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: in terms of other issues like that is less connected

524
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: to ideology and more connected to age than anything. It's

525
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 2: telling us that gen Z the generation that has effectively

526
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: been raised on social media, whether it be TikTok or

527
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: Instagram or anything else, and therefore gets the vast majority

528
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: of their news from those sites. Either simply doesn't understand

529
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 2: the conflict, doesn't understand the ways in which debate around

530
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: Israel can and sometimes does morph into anti Semitism, or

531
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: in some places, actually do believe what they're saying, And

532
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 2: so starting to address this requires us to first understand

533
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 2: what the problem is, which is that this very age

534
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: specific ignorance and in some cases vitriol that is unique

535
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: to a specific generation that has again been raised almost

536
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: exclusively on social media in a way that is different

537
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: than any of the generations before, and so address seeing it,

538
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: I think first requires us to understand that as opposed

539
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: to trying the sort of one size fits all approach

540
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: to countering anti Semitism that for so long we've been using.

541
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: And so what might we do.

542
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot that we can do, I think,

543
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: one differentiating and understanding the complexity of this. Right, So,

544
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 2: there are those who are actually anti Semitic, there are

545
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: those who are actually defending Hamas's terror attack, But for

546
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: the vast majority of people, it's rooted less so and

547
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: malicious and more so in ignorance, and so education, education

548
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: actually matters. There have been a number of surveys that

549
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: show that have shown that if you actually educate people,

550
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: if you share some basic facts about the conflict, about

551
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: the history of Israel and the Palestinians, it actually moves

552
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 2: the needle and helping them understand what's happening and reduce

553
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: some of the polarized biases that we're seeing. I think

554
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 2: it also requires us to step back and provide more

555
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: structural solutions media and digital literacy. So much of what

556
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: is flying around on social media is rooted in disinformation

557
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: and hate and extremism. And if we are not actually

558
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: teaching kids, teaching educators and schools and parents how to

559
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: engage on social media, how to teach our kids to

560
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: engage on social media in a critical way that's able

561
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 2: to actually understand what's real and what's not, what's intended

562
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: to be incendiary, and what is actually facts, this is

563
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: only going to continue. So there are some very specific

564
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: tools that are out there, tools from places like an

565
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 2: organization I'm on the of, the Polarization and Extremism Research

566
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: and Innovation Lab, which is a mouthful at American University

567
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: specifically intended to help people inoculate their kids and their

568
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: students to some of the hate online. Tools from places

569
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: like the Western State Center and the Southern Poverty Law

570
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: Center focused on this specific bills and other policy solutions

571
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: aimed at requiring schools to be teaching media and digital literacy.

572
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: And so we've been grappling with a crisis of extremism

573
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 2: and hate and disinformation on social media long before October seventh,

574
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: But I think October seventh, in so many ways, ripped

575
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: off the band aid and made crystal clear how that

576
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 2: is manifesting, particularly among younger Americans, and we're seeing it

577
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: play out more than anything on college campuses right now.

578
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: So what are some of the falsehoods you encounter and

579
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: what are the truths these people should be aware of.

580
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: Well, you know, a big narrative right now is this

581
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: idea of Israel as a colonizer. Right We see this

582
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: in so many different places, and what that presupposes is

583
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: a few things. It suggests that first, Israel and the

584
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 2: Jewish people have no connection to the land, when we

585
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 2: know that the Jewish people have had deep connection to

586
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: the Land of Israel for millennia, and that is specifically

587
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: why Israel was formed where it was formed. It also

588
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: fundamentally miss understands who the Israeli people are. Israel is

589
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: comprised of people from of Jews from all over the world,

590
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: as well as Arabs, Bedouins, and others, including Jews who

591
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 2: were refugees from Arab countries, from African countries, and so

592
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 2: so much of this idea sort of of the Israeli

593
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: Palestinian conflict, this idea of trying to apply American dynamics

594
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 2: of and white supremacy to the Israeli Palestinian conflict, is

595
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what the conflict is

596
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 2: and what the history is. And again, the data tells

597
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: us that when we actually step back and begin to

598
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: educate people about this, to share that history, to share

599
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: you know, who the Israeli people are, it helps people

600
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: recognize that that framework might not actually apply here.

601
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: Okay, so there are mores throughout history. In my lifetime,

602
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: in my studies, I've never seen a country attacked where

603
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: so many people say, don't fight back. I don't think

604
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: that would be the case. I warrant the Jews, what

605
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: do you think, Well.

606
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: Look, this gets into much deeper and more convoluted questions

607
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: about is and its history that we probably then we

608
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: probably have time for here. But look, I think that

609
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: that two things are true. Right. There has absolutely been

610
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 2: the ways in which Israel has been disproportionately targeted and attacked,

611
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: both in terms of the actual attacks on Israel and

612
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: then in the international community's reaction to it, the disproportionate

613
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 2: attention directed at Israel that in certain places can actually

614
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: be rooted in anti Semitism or at least anti Zionism,

615
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: and similar or rather on the flip side, is the

616
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 2: fact that at the end of the day, the only

617
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: solution here is a political solution. Israel has an absolute

618
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: right to defend itself. I support Israel in defending itself

619
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: right now, and I also know that down the road

620
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: eventually the only solution to this conflict is one that

621
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: involves two states living side by side that is reached

622
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: through a political peace agreement. Because there is no military

623
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 2: solution to this conflict, Hamas needs to be upgraded, Hamas

624
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 2: needs to be held accountable for its barbaric terror attack,

625
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,240
Speaker 2: and long term we will still need a political solution.

626
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: And so how we are holding all of that complexity,

627
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: how we are both simultaneously defending Israel's right to defend

628
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 2: itself following this barbaric terror attack and not losing sight

629
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: of the very real need for a long term political solution.

630
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 2: If the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are ever

631
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: going to be safe and ever going to live in peace,

632
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: is crucial here.

633
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: Okay. Even from the formation of Israel in the forties,

634
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: the Palestinians were offered their own state. There have been

635
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: efforts to create a two state solution, even in the

636
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: last couple of decades. Multiple times. In each case it

637
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: was the Palestinians who rejected that offer. And we hear

638
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: this statement which is now being populated throughout the world

639
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: from the river to the sea, which means the eradication

640
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: of Israel. So when the war began, my inbox said Pepe,

641
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: from people, I want peace, I want a two state solution,

642
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: and I agree with you, each people having their own

643
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: state would be the best of circumstances. But so far

644
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: we have one side who does not desire that.

645
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: There's no other choice. I don't think we had. There's

646
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 2: no solution for the long term in which a singles

647
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: we're having a single state leads to Jewish safety or

648
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: to any of the self determination both people need. So

649
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, the only option is

650
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: two states, one Israelian one Palestinian, living side by side

651
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: in peace and security. That doesn't mean that it's going

652
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: to be easy, that doesn't mean that there are comparable

653
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: partners for peace in any direction, but it does mean

654
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: that we have no other choice. A one state solution

655
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: would either be given the population that exists, either an

656
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: anti democratic state or a non Jewish state. And if

657
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: we want a Jewish and democratic homeland, the only option

658
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: is two states.

659
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go underneath that. Let's go more micro. So

660
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: you have all these people, especially on college campuses. I

661
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: want peace now, some of them want is real eradicated,

662
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: and I want a two state solution. But as a

663
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: practical matter, Hamas entered Israeli land killed four digits worth

664
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: of people. And let me put it a little bit differently,

665
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: let's go all the way back. For those of us

666
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: who are older than you are, we lived through the

667
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: sixty seven War, six Day War. All of a sudden,

668
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the legend of invincibility of

669
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: the Israelis. Then we had seventy two in Munich at

670
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: the Olympics. We had the seventy three war, which lasted

671
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: much longer, but subsequent to that there was constant burnishing

672
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: of the image of Mo sad Okay. So since there

673
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: hasn't been anything of this significance or this volume in decades,

674
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: there's certainly been actions Elebanon and what's going on in

675
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: the West Bank. People see the Israelis is almighty aggressors.

676
00:45:53,360 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: Yet we have this terrorist group Pamas based in the

677
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: Gods Strip who say they will never stop fighting. So

678
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: is a practical matter what should the Israelis do now?

679
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 2: Well, I think you're getting there's a lot there. So

680
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: there's a long history and then there's the specific dynamics

681
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: of this moment. And I think there was a specific

682
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: New York Times story last week where Hamas did an

683
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: interview saying specifically that their goal is constant war, and

684
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: so for many that just underscores the need to actually

685
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: uproot and destroy Hamas. That doesn't change the fact that Israel,

686
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 2: for example, has an obligation to protect Palestinian civilian lives.

687
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: That when Hamas of course does things to put Palestinian

688
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 2: civilian lives in harms way. That makes that even harder.

689
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 2: But it's important that we not lose sight of this complexity. Right,

690
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: that this is intentionally what Hamas wants here. They want

691
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 2: a constant state of war, and therefore Israel has a

692
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: right and frankly responsibility to do something about that. And

693
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: at the same time, it doesn't change its own obligations

694
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: to protect Palestinian civilian lives however possible.

695
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: And so.

696
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: What's what we need to be conveying is all of

697
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: that complexity. I think the President President Biden has done

698
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: a phenomenal job conveying that complexity, making clear what he expects,

699
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 2: making clear his deep support for Israel and its right

700
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: to defend itself even while cautioning about its responsibilities to

701
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: protect civilian lives. And so too, must we hold that

702
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: complexity and talking to people about this this conflict and

703
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: make clear that we are separating Hamas from the Palestinian people,

704
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: that they are not one and the same, that Hamas

705
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: is not the future of the Palestinian people, and that

706
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: they in so many ways have put Palestinian lives directly

707
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: in harm's way as a result of their brutal terror attack.

708
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: What do you say to the people calling for a ceasefire.

709
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: Look, I don't understand how we could have a ceasefire

710
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 2: with an organization that has made crystal clear as recently

711
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: as just a few days ago that their goal is

712
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: constant war with Israel. First, there are still nearly two

713
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 2: hundred and forty hostages babies, children, grandparents who are being

714
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: held in Gaza and have been held there for over

715
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: five weeks. These include not just Israelis, but Americans as

716
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: well as suple variety of countries, and so first and foremost,

717
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: we need the hostages released. Second of all, Hamas has

718
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: made very clear what their intent is, which is a

719
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 2: state of constant war, and so there needs to be

720
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 2: both a path forward that addresses the humanitarian concerns in Gaza,

721
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: but that doesn't simply lead of Israel susceptible and open

722
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: to repeated attacks from Hamas, which is precisely what they

723
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: have made clear is their goal. And so again we

724
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 2: so often see this conflict in black and white terms

725
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: ceasefire or no ceasefire, when in actuality, there are ways

726
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: to both address the humanitarian conditions protect Palestinian lives. However,

727
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: possible while still ensuring that a terrorist organization that murdered

728
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: and abducted hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people is

729
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: being held accountable and those people are and the hostages

730
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 2: are hopefully being freed.

731
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift back to our nation. So what we've

732
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: noticed since October seventh is a schism in the Democratic

733
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: Party from what is labeled the far left to the mainstream.

734
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: We even had a member of Congress who was censured

735
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: over her pro Palestinian comments. How does one bring the

736
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: Democratic Party together on this issue?

737
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: I would argue that the Democratic Party is actually pretty

738
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 2: united on this issue, and there's a couple voices who

739
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 2: have been the outliers, But first and foremost the leader

740
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 2: of the party, President Biden. His moral clarity has been

741
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: unbelievable in the last five weeks. I was part of

742
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: the initial meeting at the White House with the President

743
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: and others in the days after October seventh. He spoke

744
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: not just with deep moral clarity, but from a deeply

745
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: personal place, making clear that this matters to him personally,

746
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: speaking about how he brings his kids and his grandkids

747
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: to Dajao to see the horrors of the holocaust, firsthand

748
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: and make them understand never again, our obligation to fight

749
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: anti Semitism in all of its forms. And so the

750
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: leader of the Democratic Party has been unbelievably clear in

751
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 2: his allyship and solidarity with the Jewish people, in his

752
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 2: support for Israel at this dire moment, and I think again,

753
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: in exhibiting the sort of moral clarity that we so

754
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: desperately need. And we've seen that from a huge amount

755
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: of elected officials across the spectrum. And so while there

756
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: are some specific voices that are certainly not aligned with

757
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: that vision, it is not where the vast majority of

758
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 2: Democrats are or the vast majority of Americans, and so

759
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 2: it's easy to feel like there are many against us

760
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: in this moment. The loudest voices tend to get outsized impact,

761
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: outsized detention on social media, and outsized criticism. Rightfully so,

762
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 2: but it's crucial that we not lose sight that the

763
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 2: vast majority of our country's leaders have been strongly and

764
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 2: clearly standing with the Jewish community in this deeply painful

765
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: and dramatic moment.

766
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: Okay, within the year, we're going to have a residential election,

767
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: although only six states are really going to count there

768
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: are polls that indicate Trump is doing well in those

769
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: six states, and people on the left will say, well,

770
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: if Trump gets elected, democracy is in question. So it

771
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: is a one percent or a very small percentage of

772
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: people who will ultimately decide this election. So people have

773
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,919
Speaker 1: to want to vote be who will they vote for.

774
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: So I agree with you, the generally elected people in

775
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: Washington are behind the Israelis on this, but there is

776
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: a significant sentiment amongst the population who are not.

777
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 2: And I think it's important to actually distinguish what we're

778
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: talking about here because the vast majority of Americans actually

779
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: really complex views on this. I think we don't give

780
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 2: people enough crist it. But if you look at the

781
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: poll data, the vast majority of Americans actually support Israel.

782
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: They believe that Israel has a right to defend itself,

783
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: and they are also concerned that, for example, Israel is

784
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 2: not doing enough to protect Palestinian civilians. And so they're

785
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 2: able to hold all of those complex thoughts at the

786
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 2: same time. And it speaks to the importance of having

787
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: that nuance, having that complexity in how we're addressing this conflict,

788
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: because that's actually where the vast majority of people are

789
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 2: and so again, it's really easy to feel like those

790
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: loudest voices are dominating the conversation. But every single poll,

791
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: every single survey I've seen, and I've been deep in

792
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 2: these over the last few weeks, tells us that we

793
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: are not alone in this moment, and we have to

794
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 2: do a lot of work to ensure that remains the case.

795
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 2: But that people are showing up, and they're showing up

796
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 2: not simply in support of Israel, but perhaps even more importantly,

797
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: showing up for the Jewish community at a time when

798
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: the ripple effects of this conflict are translating to very

799
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 2: real anti semitism here at home.

800
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned earlier the reasons why we can't have

801
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: a cease fire. New York Times came out for a ceasefire.

802
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: They continue, that's the position of the paper on the

803
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: editorial page. They continue to print pro cease fire opinion pieces,

804
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: and almost none that's saying we shouldn't have a ceasefire.

805
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: I hear from Jews saying we should have a cease fire.

806
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: So yes, we might have universal universals too struggle. We

807
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: might have a majority agreement that Israel should be able

808
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: to exist and defend itself. But I'm also seeing people

809
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: who are afraid to say that there shouldn't be a ceasefire.

810
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: I see my inbox people say, don't use my name.

811
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: They don't want to go on record if I say

812
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 1: there shouldn't be a ceasefire. The blowbacks unbelievable. I lose

813
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 1: subscribers to my newsletter, so I am not so sure

814
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: that really everybody's on the same page. Let me reiterate.

815
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people on the left are

816
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: blinking fearful of being criticized themselves for saying there should

817
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: be no cease fire. So this I believe is problematic

818
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: right now, Yes, our government and the Israeli government are

819
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: not stopping, but the sentiment of the public seems to

820
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: be the opposite.

821
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 2: Look I think, I think we need to distinguish between

822
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 2: what is a difference of policy and actual maliciousness. Right so,

823
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: I think good people can disagree at a certain point

824
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 2: over whether there should be a ceasefire or a humanitarian pause,

825
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 2: or all of the different policy solutions that are out there.

826
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 2: I know where I stand, and I'm deeply concerned about

827
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 2: what a ceasefire in the full sense would mean for

828
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: Hamas and its ability to continue to attack innocent civilians.

829
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: And I also know that there are some people who

830
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 2: support a ceasefire who I don't agree with, but who

831
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:31,959
Speaker 2: also are able to simultaneously condemn Hamas and specifically, most

832
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: importantly call out the anti Semitic ripple effects that we're

833
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 2: seeing here at all. And so it's figuring out where

834
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 2: those lines are so that we are separating maliciousness from policy, disagreements,

835
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: from ignorance, and from all of those different pieces. It's

836
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 2: very easy to conflate everyone who is against us in

837
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: different forms into sort of one big bucket. But at

838
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 2: the end of the day, if we distinguish between those who,

839
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,479
Speaker 2: for example, support a cease fire but are speaking out

840
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 2: forcefully against anti semitism, speaking out about the importance of

841
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 2: Israel and its right to exist, from those who might

842
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 2: just simply be ignorant and are latching on to the

843
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: easy hashtags and slogans, to those who are indeed malicious

844
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 2: and are for example, celebrating Hamas's attack as an active

845
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: resistance or celebrating the targeting of Jews to hold them

846
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 2: accountable for Israel's actions, or anything in between. And so

847
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 2: how we again really understand that there's complexity there, and

848
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 2: it's our job to figure out who we are simply

849
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: disagreeing with, who we can educate, who we can bring

850
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 2: along in a way that expands the base of support,

851
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 2: not just for Israel in this moment, but specifically.

852
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: Okay, I understand all that, but let's dig a little deeper.

853
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: I constantly hear we hear this from Roger Waters of

854
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: Pink Floyd. I'm not against the Jews, I'm not anti Semitic.

855
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: It's Israel. Whereas those of us who are Jews listen

856
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: to a lot of the comments, say this is inherently

857
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: anti Semitic. It's like people who say, hey, I'm not

858
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: racist and then evidence racist behavior. So yes, you and

859
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: me both agree. You can criticize Israel and its policies

860
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: and not be anti Semitic. But money people are criticizing

861
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: Israel's policies were saying they're not anti semitic, actually are antisemitic.

862
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: Well, this is the entire conversation right now, right, this

863
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 2: is exactly what we need to be engaging people on.

864
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 2: Because look, I like a few weeks before October seventh,

865
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: I was proud to speak outside the UN with other

866
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 2: major Jewish leaders protesting the rollback Act of Democracy in Israel.

867
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: Many people have illustrated how easy it is to criticize

868
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 2: Israel and Israeli policy without being anti Semitic. It's not

869
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 2: very hard. The same way we all criticize the American

870
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 2: government in American policy without fundamentally suggesting that America shouldn't

871
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: exist or engaging in bigoted tropes. What we are seeing

872
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: now is the ways in which Israel and the Jewish

873
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: people are conflated. Jewish people, organizations, and institutions are targeted

874
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 2: for the actions of the Israeli government. Terms like Zionists

875
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 2: are used to speak to not simply those who believe

876
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 2: in a Jewish homeland, but sort of used in nefarious

877
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 2: ways to perpetuate tropes about Jewish control and power. And so,

878
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 2: how we help people in this moment understand where that

879
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 2: line is between criticism of Israel which is and appropriate

880
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 2: and protect it under the First Amendment. To actual anti

881
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 2: semitism that directly isolates Jews, leads to violence against Jews,

882
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 2: and otherwise seeks to marginalize and isolate our community at

883
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: this tenuous moment is really important and that involves a

884
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 2: lot of hard conversations. It involves helping people understand why

885
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 2: anti semitism doesn't just harm Jews, but actually harms all

886
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: of us by sowing distrust in our democracy, by sowing

887
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 2: hatred that can end up targeting so many communities and

888
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 2: normalizing extremism at such a tenuous time. And so there's

889
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 2: a lot of work that we have to do in

890
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 2: that regard. It is specifically the work that we are

891
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: engaged in at JCPA in terms of building those relationships

892
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 2: between communities to better understand how deeply connected our safety is,

893
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: to better understand, for example, where the line is between

894
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: criticism of Israel and anti semitism, and to understand how

895
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 2: these conspiracy theories about Jews and Jewish power so often

896
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: times are utilized by extremists of different stripes to sow

897
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 2: that distrust in our democracy and our society.

898
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: So, to what degree have you personally experienced anti semitism

899
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: in your life and since you've been in these public

900
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: roles in Jewish organizations, has personal anti Semitic attacks upon

901
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: you increased or decreased?

902
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: Well, that is a challenging question. And you know, frankly,

903
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 2: some of the personal details about my life we're talking

904
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 2: about are not things they oftentimes share publicly because of

905
01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: the very real anti Semitic and extremist threats and security

906
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 2: concerns I've had because of the nature of my work.

907
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: So before I came on as the CEO of JCPA,

908
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: I led an organization called Integrity First for America who

909
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 2: brought a lawsuit against the neo Nazis who attacked Charlottesville.

910
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 2: And as you could imagine, those Neo Nazis were not

911
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: so thrilled that we were holding them accountable in court,

912
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 2: and it led to some very direct threats against me

913
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 2: and my family. Letters sent to my home, email, social

914
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: media posts, and others directly targeting me, singing me out,

915
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: posting my photo and other identifying details. In fact, in

916
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: one case, I believe I was actually on my honeymoon.

917
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: I got a call from the FBI saying that they

918
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 2: had arrested someone who had been threatening me a number

919
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 2: of years ago. And so this was all fairly new

920
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 2: and jarring for me when it started. I grew up

921
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 2: at a time when Jews felt very safe in America.

922
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 2: My grandparents who had come here after surviving the Holocaust,

923
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 2: I think, in many ways their hope for their family.

924
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 2: It felt like it was coming to fruition that Jews

925
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 2: could live safely and freely in America without real concern

926
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 2: for our safety in the way that they lived growing up,

927
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking how lucky I was to live

928
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 2: at this specific period of time in this country where

929
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 2: I was safe, and in the last ten years that

930
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 2: has changed dramatically. You can trace it back to a

931
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 2: number of incidents. For me, one of the sharpest moments

932
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 2: was Charlottesville. Was seeing neo Nazis with torches, embold and

933
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: empowered to chant things like Jews will not replace us

934
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 2: and blood and soil, which is an avowed Nazi slogan,

935
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 2: and descend on a community, surround a synagogues, around college students,

936
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 2: and attack people because of who they are and what

937
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 2: they believe. Much like the last few weeks have really

938
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 2: exposed a lot of the fissures and challenges that exist

939
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 2: in a variety of ways. I think Unite the Right

940
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 2: really was a mask off moment in that violent anti

941
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 2: Semitism became normalized. It became acceptable in our society in

942
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 2: a way that was frightening, and that directly helped fuel

943
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 2: and spur a broader cycle of extremism that targeted not

944
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 2: just the Jewish community in attacks like the Pittsburgh Synagogu

945
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: shooting and the Poe Jabad shooting, but also the Hispanic

946
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 2: community in Alpasso, the Black community in Buffalo, and a

947
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: variety of others. And so we've seen this cycle of

948
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 2: anti Semitism over the last decade or so, particularly the

949
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 2: last five to six years, in which it's become increasingly normalized,

950
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 2: increasingly permissible on social media, with very real world consequences.

951
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: And we know that it makes not just Jews unsafe,

952
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 2: but everyone unsafe because of the ways these conspiracy theories

953
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: operate and directly lead to targeting again not just of

954
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 2: Jewish people and organizations and institutions, but Black and Hispanic

955
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 2: and Muslim and other people who are seen as pawns

956
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: or tools of the Jewish community, and so many of

957
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 2: these conspiracies.

958
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: Now, let's use an analogy of the Me Too movement

959
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:33,959
Speaker 1: five years ago. As a result of that, men were

960
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: told what they could not say. Most men got the memo.

961
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: But being a man, there are things that are said

962
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: amongst men that are not written down or not publicized.

963
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: So therefore, when you've expressed an anti black sentiment, whether

964
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: you were a sportscaster or other person in the public eye.

965
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: You literally lost your job. So we know that anti

966
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 1: Semitism has been around for millennia, and we can't sit

967
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: here and eradicate anti semitism with a snap of our fingers. However,

968
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: and let's be point blank here to what degree did

969
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: Trump legitimize the anti Semitism which then added fuel to

970
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 1: the fire.

971
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 2: In so many ways. The normalization of anti Semitism that

972
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 2: we've seen in recent years, and I'll say not just

973
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 2: anti Semitism, but broader hate fueled violence and extremism, came

974
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 2: directly from the top. It's not exclusive to Trump. There

975
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: were these challenges and symptoms that existed before him, But

976
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 2: what he did was effectively give license to it. He

977
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 2: to tell these extremists, whether they're Neo Nazis in Charlottesville

978
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 2: or white supremacists targeting Jews synagogue, or white supremacist targeting

979
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 2: black people or Hispanic people at their supermarkets, that their

980
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 2: views are permissible, that these conspiracy theories about efforts to

981
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 2: replace the white race, to change the demographics of our country,

982
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 2: to otherwise, you know, otherwise engage in these sorts of

983
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories that we know are fundamentally rooted in anti semitism.

984
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 2: Trump and a number of other elected officials have effectively

985
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 2: normalized them in a way that has made it harder,

986
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 2: sort of put the genie back in the bottle. And

987
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:36,479
Speaker 2: so we are now going into an election year where

988
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 2: we know that these conspiracy theories, these lies, this disinformation,

989
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 2: these efforts to pick communities against what another un weaponize

990
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 2: anti semitism, are only going to get worse. And it's

991
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 2: incumbent on everyone, including the media and others, not to

992
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 2: buy into that framework, not to help further normalize this

993
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 2: anti semitism in other forms of extremism, because that's precisely

994
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 2: what the goal is here. And make no mistake that

995
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,479
Speaker 2: it's manifesting in different forms. We see among right wing

996
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 2: politicians like Trump or voices like Tucker Carlson, this normalization

997
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 2: of the great replacement theory of other anti Semitic conspiracy theories,

998
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 2: the ways in which political violence have been directly connected

999
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:30,479
Speaker 2: to belief in these sorts of conspiracy theories, and in turn,

1000
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,600
Speaker 2: that cycle of extremism that's followed from Charlottesville to Pittsburgh

1001
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 2: to Poway and al Paso on Buffalo and January sixth, Then,

1002
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 2: beyond how this intersects with what we're now seeing on

1003
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 2: college campuses and elsewhere, is not that these forms of

1004
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 2: hate are exactly one and the same, but rather the

1005
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 2: marginalization and isolation of Jewish students on college campuses or

1006
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 2: in progressive spaces is because of Israel, because of support

1007
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 2: for Israel or connection to Israel, serves the purpose of

1008
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 2: effectively making it harder for us to build the coalitions

1009
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 2: we need to then take on the increasingly normalized anti

1010
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 2: Semitism and white supremacy we're seeing any other direction, and

1011
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 2: so both of them are deeply dangerous. Both intend to

1012
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:30,720
Speaker 2: isolate and marginalize the Jewish community in different ways, and

1013
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 2: they function differently and require us to confront them differently

1014
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 2: because they are not the same thing, but they are

1015
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 2: in so many ways inextricably linked because of how they

1016
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 2: function and how in particular, what we're now seeing in

1017
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 2: the aftermath of October seventh makes the coalition building and

1018
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 2: the cross community relationships we desperately need in this moment

1019
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 2: to combat increasively normalized extremism that much. Ha.

1020
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: Okay, they say there's thirty five percent of the Republican

1021
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: Party who are die hard Trumpers. I hear from people

1022
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 1: on the right wing all day, every day, and it's

1023
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 1: very much in us versus them dialogue. The democratic position

1024
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: has traditionally been get out and vote. Okay, that's a

1025
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 1: political but anti semitism knows no bounds. How do we

1026
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 1: penetrate those people who are anti Semitic by principle? We

1027
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 1: had an ex president who said, how can I be

1028
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 1: anti Semitic? I have a daughter with Jewish children who

1029
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: converted herself, even though there are comments he made that

1030
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 1: would belie that. So what's our hope here?

1031
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 2: Look, I think there's a few things we need to

1032
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 2: do first and foremost. I think it's to step back

1033
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 2: and understand stand how our democratic norms and institutions and

1034
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 2: values have been freed in recent years. And what we're

1035
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 2: seeing is because of social media, because of the normalization

1036
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 2: of extremism. That we were talking about the ways in

1037
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 2: which these things have been giving given license at a platform,

1038
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 2: we needed to actually step back and invest in our

1039
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,719
Speaker 2: democratic institutions and our norms. And there's very specific things

1040
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 2: we can do. At JCPA. We are specifically building out

1041
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 2: a democracy coalition that brings together these various pieces whether

1042
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 2: it be the media and digital literacy that we talked

1043
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 2: about earlier, empowering schools and educators and parents to make

1044
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,680
Speaker 2: sure people actually know what's real and what's not on

1045
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 2: social media, how they are, how they are digesting what

1046
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:47,679
Speaker 2: they get from social media with a critical eye, critical

1047
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,720
Speaker 2: lens because of how much of these this bigotry and

1048
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 2: disinformation spreads that way. It's investing in voting and civil

1049
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 2: rights work to make sure that the fundamental rights we

1050
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 2: prompt us our citizens in this country are protected. It's

1051
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 2: combating book and curriculum bands that are aimed at undercutting

1052
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 2: what students learn and that we know are not just targeting,

1053
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 2: for example, the history of slavery and white supremacy in

1054
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 2: this country, but have also now spilled over into the

1055
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 2: curriculum and bands and Holocaust related books and education. It's

1056
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 2: protecting our elections through the fundamental tenets of civic engagement,

1057
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 2: through poll work and all of that. And so we

1058
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 2: as a society have disinvested from the democratic norms and

1059
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 2: institutions that we know are inherent to keeping communities safe

1060
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 2: into combating the sort of polarization and extremism that you're describing.

1061
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 2: And so if we actually begin to invest in that

1062
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 2: infrastructure if we begin to understand how deeply connected are

1063
01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 2: these forms of conspiracy theories and hate are attempts to

1064
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 2: undermine democracy, how they are intentionally utilized to so distrust

1065
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 2: in our democracy, and therefore one of the ways we

1066
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 2: combat them is to build trust in our democracy, to

1067
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 2: build up the infrastructure of our democracy. And so that

1068
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 2: is one thing that all of us can do, no

1069
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 2: matter who we are and where we live, is really volunteer,

1070
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 2: invest in engage in the infrastructure of democracy in our communities.

1071
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 2: It's also important to help people understand how deeply interconnected

1072
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,920
Speaker 2: these forms of hate are right now that none of

1073
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:37,320
Speaker 2: them exist in a silo. We see how anti Semitism,

1074
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 2: through these great replacement theories, fuel anti black racism, anti

1075
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 2: immigrant hate, anti Muslim hate, anti LGBTQ hate, and we

1076
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 2: see the cycle of violence fueled by these conspiracy theories

1077
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 2: that have targeted so many different communities around this country,

1078
01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 2: no matter who they are, Black, Hispanic, Jews, and so on.

1079
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 2: We also know that in this moment, we are seeing,

1080
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 2: for example, neo Nazis recruit off of the anti LGBTQ,

1081
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 2: anti trans events that we're seeing we're seeing them try

1082
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 2: to utilize the abortion debate to recruit and so all

1083
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 2: of this tells us that our safety is deeply interconnected.

1084
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 2: Even at a moment when we see extremists trying to

1085
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 2: tell us that this is zero sum, that's somehow fighting

1086
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 2: anti Semitism is going to come at the expense of

1087
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 2: the safety of other communities. The fighting Islamophobia is going

1088
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 2: to come out at the expense of Jewish safety or

1089
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 2: other communities safety. And we first need to get out

1090
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 2: of the zero sum framework and understand the tackling hate

1091
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:45,599
Speaker 2: and all forms keeps all of us safe and makes

1092
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 2: all of us safer, and recognize that it's not that

1093
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 2: all of our safety is actually deeply interconnected. At the

1094
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 2: end of the day, and if we are to take

1095
01:14:56,560 --> 01:15:00,320
Speaker 2: on any form of hate, it requires taking o all

1096
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 2: of these forms of hate because of the ways in

1097
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:07,640
Speaker 2: which they intersect. At this particularly tenuous moment where conspiracy

1098
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:10,439
Speaker 2: theories rooted in so many different forms of bigotry are

1099
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:11,800
Speaker 2: increasingly normalized.

1100
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: So tell me about your volvement and what you did

1101
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 1: in Charlottesville.

1102
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 2: So you know I at the time when Unite the

1103
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 2: Right happened, when the violence in Charlottesville happened. I was

1104
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,280
Speaker 2: working in the New York Attorney General's Office, leading communications

1105
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 2: and policy, and it was grateful to be in that office.

1106
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 2: We were on the front lines of a lot of

1107
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 2: the efforts to protect Americans from the policy of this

1108
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 2: of the Trump administration, the Muslim band, peal of doc

1109
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 2: and so many others that were deeply at odds with

1110
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:49,600
Speaker 2: our fundamental civil rights and the values on which this

1111
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 2: country was built. And when Unite the Right happened, it

1112
01:15:53,880 --> 01:16:00,040
Speaker 2: really felt like again a mask off moment, when so

1113
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 2: much that had been simmering under the surface, that had

1114
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 2: been emboldened, particularly by the President and others, was all

1115
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 2: of a sudden given license to parade violently down our streets,

1116
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 2: to attack students, to espouse the most viol anti Semitic

1117
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 2: and racist ideas, and then of course to culminate in

1118
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 2: the deadly attack on a community that led to heather

1119
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 2: Hire's death and the injury of so many others. And

1120
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:29,040
Speaker 2: so when some lawyers I knew from my prior work

1121
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 2: reached out and said, hey, we'd we'd like to sue

1122
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 2: the neo Nazis. Are you interested in working We're a.

1123
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 1: Little bit slower at this time, you're no longer working

1124
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 1: in the AG's office.

1125
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 2: I was working in the AG's office and I got

1126
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 2: a call from some of the lawyers who ultimately brought

1127
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 2: the case, Robbie Kaplan and Karen Don, who said, we

1128
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 2: want to sue the Nazis. Are you interested in working

1129
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 2: with us? And I don't know what else I could

1130
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 2: have done in that moment, but say yes, Okay.

1131
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: Just to understand, there's an organization Integrity for America. Where

1132
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: does that fit into this?

1133
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 2: So Integrity First for America, the organization I ran, was

1134
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 2: created to really support this lawsuit, okay, to serve as

1135
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:14,640
Speaker 2: the vehicle for which we were able to move this

1136
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 2: lawsuit forward. As you can imagine, even with tons of

1137
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 2: pro bono legal work donated legal work, there are many

1138
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 2: expenses related to coordinating a lawsuit of the size. We

1139
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 2: had five law firms across the board.

1140
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:29,800
Speaker 1: That okay, wait, let me let's go. Let's go back

1141
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 1: a little bit slower. You get these calls, you say,

1142
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 1: I'm in what's the next step?

1143
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 2: So I came on as the executive director of Integrity First.

1144
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 2: The lawsuit had been filed on behalf of nine community

1145
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 2: members who were injured in the violence.

1146
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: Just a little bit slower. Did you give up your

1147
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:51,759
Speaker 1: job at the AG's office?

1148
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 2: I did so. I did so. I left the AG's office,

1149
01:17:56,520 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 2: which you know was was was sad because I'm a

1150
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 2: deep believer in the power of state ags and local government.

1151
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 2: But I think to be on the front lines of

1152
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,840
Speaker 2: this fight at a moment of rising extremism and anti

1153
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:15,640
Speaker 2: semitism was more meaningful than I probably anticipated it would be.

1154
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:18,640
Speaker 1: Okay, you get the call from the lawyers. Did they

1155
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 1: already have the nine plaintiffs or did you go to

1156
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: find the ninth plaintiffs?

1157
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:25,240
Speaker 2: Correct? So, the legal team had been on the ground

1158
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:29,679
Speaker 2: in the immediate aftermath of Unite the Right and had

1159
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,679
Speaker 2: connected to a number of folks, ultimately nine Charlottesville community

1160
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 2: members who were injured in the violence. The bravest people

1161
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:40,960
Speaker 2: I know, people who, for example, two friends of Heather

1162
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 2: Hier who had been with her that day marching peacefully

1163
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:49,679
Speaker 2: down the street against white supremacy in their community. Heather,

1164
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 2: of course, was murdered by the car in the car attack.

1165
01:18:53,640 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 2: Marissa and Marcus were severely injured but survived. People like

1166
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 2: Natalie Romero and Devin Willis, who were UVA students at

1167
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 2: the time University of Virginia students who were first surrounded

1168
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 2: and attacked during the Torch march on Friday night on

1169
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 2: their college campus by a bunch of Nazis, and then

1170
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:18,439
Speaker 2: somehow Natalie also ended up hit directly by the car

1171
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:22,599
Speaker 2: the next day and suffered, among other things, a fractured skull.

1172
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 2: And so nine people all together who had shown up

1173
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 2: to peacefully protest white supremacists descending on their campus, on

1174
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 2: their town and were grievously injured as a result. And

1175
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 2: what became clear very quickly was that what happened was

1176
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 2: no accident. The social media chats that came out in

1177
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 2: the weeks and days after Unite the Rate, including specifically

1178
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,680
Speaker 2: chats from the social media site Discord, showed that the

1179
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 2: violence was actually planned long in advance, that there were

1180
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:59,160
Speaker 2: discussions about hitting protesters with cars and then claiming self defense.

1181
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 2: And again what happened was no accident, but rather intended

1182
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: to violently attack people based on who they are, their race,

1183
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 2: their religion, and their willingness to stand up for the

1184
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 2: rights with their neighbors. And so that is not speech,

1185
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,919
Speaker 2: that is not a clash between different sides. That's a racist,

1186
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:20,320
Speaker 2: anti Semitic violent conspiracy, and we have laws meant to

1187
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 2: protect against that, and specifically, the plaintiffs in the lawsuit

1188
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:29,720
Speaker 2: with our team brought a case under a number of

1189
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 2: federal and state statutes aimed at protecting protecting people's civil

1190
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 2: rights and fundamental rights in the face of violent hate.

1191
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 2: One of these statutes, the Ku Klux Klan Act of

1192
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy one, is precisely what it sounds like, an

1193
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:49,560
Speaker 2: over one hundred and fifty year old statue created to

1194
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,719
Speaker 2: protect recently freed slaves from clan violence in the South,

1195
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 2: that has been used a number of times throughout history

1196
01:20:57,080 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 2: to hold people accountable for their violent extreme and that

1197
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 2: in the year twenty twenty three is somehow having a

1198
01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 2: bit of a resurgence because of the uptick in violent

1199
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 2: hate that we've seen. And so this lawsuit, in so

1200
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 2: many ways, really became a preview, not much like the

1201
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 2: Charlottesville violence was, of how you hold accountable violent extremism

1202
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 2: at a time when it was hitting record levels. There's

1203
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 2: so much to say about the case.

1204
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 1: I want to hear. So, Okay, you found the plaintiffs,

1205
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,439
Speaker 1: how did you find exactly who to sue?

1206
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 2: Great question? So there was a very lucky break. Early

1207
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:43,639
Speaker 2: on a site called Unicorn Riot, which is a non

1208
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:49,559
Speaker 2: profit journalism site, published these Discord chats, these social media

1209
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 2: chats in which so much of the planning of the

1210
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 2: violence happened. And in these chats they had all these

1211
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 2: different channels illustrating every r engaging people are on everything

1212
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:02,719
Speaker 2: from transper rotation to know what to eat for lunch,

1213
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:06,559
Speaker 2: to weapons to different plans, and from those chats it

1214
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:09,639
Speaker 2: became very clear sort of who was in charge versus

1215
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:13,519
Speaker 2: who was simply their showing up, and ultimately the legal

1216
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 2: team was able to identify twenty four defendants, some of

1217
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 2: them individuals, some of them hate groups names like Richard Spencer,

1218
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 2: who you might know as the guy who coined the

1219
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 2: term alt right and circa twenty seventeen was sort of

1220
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:30,599
Speaker 2: the leading neo Nazi in America, groups like LEGA the South,

1221
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 2: certain KKK groups, National Socialist Movement, Identity Europa and others,

1222
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 2: and specifically using those chats, which again was a lucky break.

1223
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 2: You don't quite you don't really get discovery that early

1224
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:51,719
Speaker 2: in most lawsuits, and of course our team subsequently subpoena

1225
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 2: Discord and other social media sites for the full chats.

1226
01:22:55,760 --> 01:23:00,200
Speaker 2: But through those initial leaks we were able to identify

1227
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:03,720
Speaker 2: who these defendants were, who these key organizers were, and

1228
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:07,799
Speaker 2: named them in the lawsuit in a way that unlike

1229
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,240
Speaker 2: most litigation, you don't have that level of detail beforehand.

1230
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you serve these people in organizations. I'm following it

1231
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:26,600
Speaker 1: very externally in the news. What's going on in Virginia

1232
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 1: in the bubble. What was the reaction to the lawsuit.

1233
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 2: Among the neo Nazis are among everybody?

1234
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:37,760
Speaker 1: What did you feel once it was filed? What did

1235
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: you see in the landscape?

1236
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,760
Speaker 2: Well, I think it became very clear, very quickly that

1237
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: Charlottesville wasn't an isolated incident, and so the importance of

1238
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:51,519
Speaker 2: this lawsuit became even more impactful. Right, So, within a

1239
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:54,599
Speaker 2: year of Charlottesville, we had, for example, the Pittsburgh attack,

1240
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:58,760
Speaker 2: in which eleven Jews were murdered in synagogue by a

1241
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,400
Speaker 2: white supremacist who a spouse many of the same ideas

1242
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 2: as the neo Nazis in charlottes Fell. A few months later,

1243
01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 2: the christ Church attack in New Zealand. A month or

1244
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 2: so after that, the poet attack in California. A few

1245
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:16,080
Speaker 2: months after that, the Al Paso attack and so on,

1246
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 2: and the wiz in which we saw what felt fringe

1247
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:24,400
Speaker 2: in Charlottesville, theas this idea of Jews will not replace us,

1248
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:28,480
Speaker 2: the conspiracy theories, the avowed anti semitism in white supremacy,

1249
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:32,599
Speaker 2: all of a sudden become increasingly normalized and in bolden

1250
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:35,400
Speaker 2: on a national level, and those attacks were happening in

1251
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:39,400
Speaker 2: parallel to elected officials and pundits like Tucker Carlson and

1252
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:46,599
Speaker 2: others giving license to those ideas in mainstream forum. It

1253
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:49,160
Speaker 2: made that lawsuit all of them were important, and so

1254
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 2: at first, you know, there was there was certainly some

1255
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 2: attention when it was filed, But as I started my

1256
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:57,880
Speaker 2: work at Integrity, first it was a little challenging to

1257
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:00,280
Speaker 2: get people to understand why this was something that they

1258
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 2: needed to care about, to support, to engage in. And

1259
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:11,280
Speaker 2: it very quickly became clear that Charlottesviell really was a

1260
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:14,439
Speaker 2: harbinger of all of the extremism that has followed, of

1261
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:18,559
Speaker 2: this increasingly normalized hate and disinformation and bigotry that has

1262
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 2: taken over so much of our political rhetoric and our

1263
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:26,799
Speaker 2: society more broadly, and so having this case not simply

1264
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:30,800
Speaker 2: as a means to hold accountable those responsible for the violence,

1265
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 2: but to put a clear marker down that there will

1266
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 2: be consequences for this sort of bigotry, to create a

1267
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 2: model for what that accountability looks like, which it has

1268
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:41,639
Speaker 2: since become with a number of January sixth then other

1269
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 2: cases modeled on it, and to just really expose and

1270
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 2: lay bare the violence and the hate at the core

1271
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 2: of this movement was deeply important, and it was heartening

1272
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 2: to see people recognize that as the case went on,

1273
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 2: as we went from filing the lawsuit, through the various

1274
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:04,680
Speaker 2: stages including you know, surviving the motion to dismiss in

1275
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 2: which the judge made clear that this was not free

1276
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 2: speech and that free speech doesn't protect violence, and then

1277
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:16,720
Speaker 2: into you know, the pre trial discovery phase when our

1278
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:21,640
Speaker 2: attorneys were traveling the country deposing neo Nazis and otherwise

1279
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:25,639
Speaker 2: moving this case towards trial, which ultimately happened in fall

1280
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:26,639
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one.

1281
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:28,759
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell us about the trial.

1282
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:37,680
Speaker 2: So the trial itself was four weeks in Charlottesville, Virginia. Certainly,

1283
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:42,520
Speaker 2: you know, if for me it was impactful and traumatic

1284
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,600
Speaker 2: and stressful, I can only imagine what it was like

1285
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:48,840
Speaker 2: for our plaintiffs, these nine people who survived the unthinkable

1286
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen and chose to relive that in service

1287
01:26:53,200 --> 01:27:01,000
Speaker 2: of holding accountable the neo Nazis and extremist responsible. No. Notably,

1288
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:05,919
Speaker 2: some of the defendants actually represented themselves, specifically Richard Spencer

1289
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 2: and Chris Cantwell to very prominent neo Nazis, and this

1290
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:13,720
Speaker 2: meant that at this trial they were not represented by

1291
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 2: lawyers and were the ones who were directly not just

1292
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:19,879
Speaker 2: giving their own opening and closing statements, but actually cross

1293
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:24,600
Speaker 2: examining our witnesses, which included the plaintiffs, so cross examining

1294
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 2: the very people whom they attacked. And it became very

1295
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:33,360
Speaker 2: clearly as we expected that those defendants and frankly some

1296
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 2: of the lawyers representing other Neo Nazis, were intent on

1297
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:42,120
Speaker 2: using the trial to try to for further normalize and

1298
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:47,320
Speaker 2: desensitize people to bigotry and hate. They would make Holocaust

1299
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 2: jokes on the stand, they would use the N word

1300
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 2: in court. They would sort of harass and terrorize our

1301
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 2: plaintiffs on the stand, trying to get them to expose

1302
01:27:57,200 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 2: or dos their friends who they were with. And then

1303
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 2: what side I multaneously have their supporters and social media

1304
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:06,160
Speaker 2: trying to dox these people. And so it was a

1305
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:09,800
Speaker 2: very deliberate effort by these defendants, and in fact, one

1306
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:12,320
Speaker 2: of their lawyers said as much after the trial, to

1307
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 2: really desensitize the jury and all those listening on to

1308
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,439
Speaker 2: this sort of hate, to make it seem like this

1309
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:21,720
Speaker 2: is just normal stuff and therefore they shouldn't be held

1310
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 2: accountable for it. But our team put forward, i think

1311
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:31,519
Speaker 2: a very clear and comprehensive recounting of the facts, which

1312
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 2: is that these neo Nazis planned for violence in extensive detail,

1313
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:39,560
Speaker 2: again down to discussions of whether they could hit protesters

1314
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 2: with cars and claim self defense, which is precisely what happened.

1315
01:28:44,160 --> 01:28:47,160
Speaker 2: They went to Charlottesville with the intent to engage in

1316
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:50,519
Speaker 2: that violence, they engaged in that violence, leading to Heather

1317
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,800
Speaker 2: Hire's death and the injury of so many others, and

1318
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:58,679
Speaker 2: then they celebrated that violence. And so what was heartening

1319
01:28:58,720 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 2: was that at the end of the day, the jury

1320
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:04,320
Speaker 2: and by the defendant's efforts to desensitize them, and they

1321
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 2: found every defendant liable to the tune of multimillion dollar verdicts.

1322
01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: Well, needless to say, some of these people were held

1323
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 1: to these multimillion dollar verdicts, but their quasi judgment proof well.

1324
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:23,200
Speaker 2: What was particularly heartening even before trial was the impact

1325
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:25,479
Speaker 2: this has had on the defendants themselves. So people like

1326
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:29,280
Speaker 2: Richard Spencer, who was at the time the most prominent

1327
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:32,600
Speaker 2: neo Nazi in the country, said before trial that this

1328
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:35,640
Speaker 2: case has effectively bankrupted him. Then we've seen how this

1329
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 2: case has marginalized and bankrupt so many key leaders of

1330
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:44,000
Speaker 2: the white supremacist movement who were prominent six years ago

1331
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:46,680
Speaker 2: and now have been wholly sort of pushed to the

1332
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 2: side and diminished in this. And so it shows the

1333
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 2: importance of accountability that if you actually hold these extremist accountable,

1334
01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:59,759
Speaker 2: there are very rare consequences even before trial, even before

1335
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:03,479
Speaker 2: the judgments. That being said, the judgments mean that they

1336
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:06,759
Speaker 2: will effectively be followed around for the rest of their lives,

1337
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 2: garnishing wages, putting leans on their home, seizing assets, and

1338
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:15,639
Speaker 2: making it impossible for them to sort of rebuild any

1339
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,680
Speaker 2: of the infrastructure that led to this extremism in the

1340
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 2: first place. And so that is really the point of

1341
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 2: litigation like this, to illustrate the consequences. It's not necessarily

1342
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 2: to collect millions and millions and millions of dollars instantaneously.

1343
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 2: And I think our plaintiffs went into this knowing that

1344
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:36,600
Speaker 2: they wouldn't necessarily be getting those millions of dollars instantaneously,

1345
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 2: but rather to make clear the power of accountability and

1346
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 2: consequences at a time when there has been so few.

1347
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:51,800
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned one six and it certainly is direct,

1348
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:54,000
Speaker 1: So you established. Those of us in the legal world

1349
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 1: know to establish a precedent to get a ruling is

1350
01:30:57,200 --> 01:31:01,560
Speaker 1: very important. But six there was a lot of attention,

1351
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:05,879
Speaker 1: more than in Charlottesville. We saw it with our own eyes.

1352
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 1: Yet we have people like Tucker Crawlson and others saying, no, really,

1353
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:12,679
Speaker 1: it was just a picnic.

1354
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:18,679
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, look, here's the difference between Charlottesville and January sixth.

1355
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 2: There's actually been accountability for January six and so post Charlottesville,

1356
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:25,080
Speaker 2: one of the reasons we thought our lawsuit was so

1357
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 2: important is that the DOJ, which was led by at

1358
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:31,720
Speaker 2: the point Jeff Sessions under Trump, the Trump administration, was

1359
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 2: unlikely to hold accountable those responsible for the violence. And

1360
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 2: that's largely born out. Post January six it's been a

1361
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 2: different ballgame there has actually been, of course, hundreds of

1362
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:43,760
Speaker 2: prosecutions that have come out of what happened that day.

1363
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:47,200
Speaker 2: There have also been civil lawsuits, including I think three

1364
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:50,280
Speaker 2: or four that are explicitly modeled on the Charlottesville case

1365
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 2: that have been moving forward in which the court the

1366
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,280
Speaker 2: judge have specifically cited the Charlottesville case that allowing them

1367
01:31:56,280 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 2: to move forward. And so we've seen sort of much

1368
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,519
Speaker 2: broader accountability post January sixth in a way that we

1369
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 2: didn't see after Charlotte's fell, which is important shows us

1370
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,720
Speaker 2: that progress is possible, that our systems can work in

1371
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 2: the way that we need them to. But of course,

1372
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,840
Speaker 2: as we head into twenty twenty four, rightfully so we're

1373
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:19,880
Speaker 2: hearing many of us are deeply concerned about what next

1374
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:24,800
Speaker 2: year will mean for democracy, for accountability at a time

1375
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:28,040
Speaker 2: when one of the people most directly responsible for January

1376
01:32:28,120 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 2: six is the leader of a major party and could

1377
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:35,840
Speaker 2: very well take back the White House.

1378
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:36,360
Speaker 1: And so.

1379
01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 2: How we not allow in the coming weeks and months

1380
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 2: these ideas that fuel January sixth in the first place,

1381
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 2: and the idea that it was anything other than an

1382
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:51,439
Speaker 2: act of violent extremism, How we don't allow that to

1383
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 2: become normalized is going to be even more important than ever.

1384
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 2: Telling the story of what happened, what came out of

1385
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,439
Speaker 2: the January sixth Commission is so important for that reason.

1386
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 2: Secutions are so important for that reason, and continuing to

1387
01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:06,920
Speaker 2: make crystal clear what this actually was, which was not,

1388
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 2: you know, a tourist visit, which was not a picnic,

1389
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,719
Speaker 2: which was not a peaceful protest. It was an act

1390
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 2: of violent extremism, and there must be broad accountability for

1391
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:23,800
Speaker 2: that in every sense of the word.

1392
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to anti semitism directly. If one

1393
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:35,120
Speaker 1: is a Jew, there's been this great assimilation which you

1394
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:42,360
Speaker 1: referenced earlier. What can you tell a Jew when confronted

1395
01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:46,640
Speaker 1: on a personal level with anti Semitism, whether it be

1396
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:50,880
Speaker 1: direct comments to them acts, when it comes up in discussion,

1397
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:52,840
Speaker 1: what should Jews do? Say?

1398
01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 2: So, I think it's important to understand where that anti

1399
01:33:57,160 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 2: semitism is coming from, right, because sometimes anti Semitism is

1400
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 2: avowedly malicious and horrific. It's the swastika on your synagogue,

1401
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:10,799
Speaker 2: it's the it's the snide comment walking down the street

1402
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:15,080
Speaker 2: about your nose or something like that, and other times,

1403
01:34:15,439 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 2: to sort of where we started this conversation, it's an

1404
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 2: offhand comment about Jews and money or landlords or something

1405
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 2: like that that might not even be meant maliciously. And

1406
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:29,320
Speaker 2: so first and foremost, like with all everything that we're

1407
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,240
Speaker 2: talking about here, stepping back and understanding where is this

1408
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 2: coming from and what is the intent, so that we

1409
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 2: can actually address it. In cases of avowed, clear malicious

1410
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 2: anti semitism, I'm not sure it's frankly worth engaging, right,

1411
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,400
Speaker 2: but in many cases there is key education and engagement

1412
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 2: that we can do to help people understand why their

1413
01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:57,960
Speaker 2: comments are hurtful and further problematic tropes and conspiracy theories

1414
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,440
Speaker 2: that make Jews unsafe and the all of us unsafe,

1415
01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 2: and understanding how whether it be how criticism of Israel

1416
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 2: can in certain cases morph into about anti semitism, why

1417
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 2: those specific tropes around Jews and money and control can

1418
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:17,160
Speaker 2: further anti semitism, And having those conversations with people who

1419
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:21,679
Speaker 2: are open to learning and hearing actually matters, and everything

1420
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:23,880
Speaker 2: tells us that that sort of one on one engagement

1421
01:35:24,479 --> 01:35:28,719
Speaker 2: is most effective as it relates to those issues. I think,

1422
01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:32,599
Speaker 2: more broadly the goal of anti Semites is to make

1423
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 2: us feel like we can't live proudly as Jews, and

1424
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,400
Speaker 2: our responsibility is to make sure that they don't succeed.

1425
01:35:40,560 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 2: And so one of the most important things we can

1426
01:35:42,479 --> 01:35:46,440
Speaker 2: do is continue to safely and smartly, but still enormously

1427
01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 2: proudly leave as Jews, go to cynicgog, go to youth group,

1428
01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 2: engage in all of the ways you want to engage

1429
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:59,960
Speaker 2: with your Jewish community, with your Jewish identity, because precisely

1430
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,200
Speaker 2: what these are anti semits hope to do with the

1431
01:36:02,200 --> 01:36:08,679
Speaker 2: attacks on synagogues, the bomb threats, the swastikas, the broader

1432
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:12,360
Speaker 2: normalized extremism that we're seeing is to make us feel

1433
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:14,360
Speaker 2: like we can't live our lives the way that we're

1434
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:16,600
Speaker 2: supposed to. That is the goal of terrorism, and that

1435
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 2: is the goal of hate. And so one of the

1436
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 2: things that all of us can do is continue to

1437
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 2: lean in proudly and clearly to our Jewish community and

1438
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 2: our Judaism in whichever ways we choose.

1439
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:33,920
Speaker 1: Okay, but let's be very specific. Not me, but someone

1440
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:38,519
Speaker 1: is in a group of people and someone said, uh, oh,

1441
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:41,840
Speaker 1: I jude him down on that. Now, I've been taught

1442
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:44,280
Speaker 1: from day one you immediately speak up, and I do.

1443
01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:47,559
Speaker 1: But there are many people who say, Oh, I don't

1444
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:50,960
Speaker 1: want anybody to feel uncomfortable. I have something to lose.

1445
01:36:51,120 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to be labeled. This is my business.

1446
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 1: We see this on a macro level, we see it

1447
01:36:57,360 --> 01:37:00,639
Speaker 1: on universities. We're afraid to make a statement, But let's

1448
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 1: start with the personal. What should people do in those circumstances?

1449
01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:09,720
Speaker 2: Call it out full stop. There is no reason why

1450
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:12,360
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be calling this out, because if we don't

1451
01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:16,440
Speaker 2: call it out, it becomes normalized. It's the lack of accountability,

1452
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:19,000
Speaker 2: whether it's on the personal level or the national level,

1453
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 2: to connect the dots between everything we're talking about, that

1454
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:26,000
Speaker 2: has led to hate and bigotry being normalized in this country.

1455
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 2: So all of us have an obligation to call it out.

1456
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:31,040
Speaker 2: We as Jews should absolutely call it out. But the

1457
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:35,240
Speaker 2: hope is also that our neighbors, our colleagues, our friends

1458
01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:38,479
Speaker 2: are calling it out, and how we're empowering them to

1459
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 2: understand why something like that is anti semitic, so that

1460
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:44,519
Speaker 2: they can actually speak up on our behalf. And it's

1461
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 2: not just on us to protect our own community, but

1462
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:49,600
Speaker 2: on all of us to protect all of our communities.

1463
01:37:50,320 --> 01:37:52,080
Speaker 2: Is going to be even more important in the weeks

1464
01:37:52,080 --> 01:37:55,040
Speaker 2: and months ahead, and so I am firmly in the

1465
01:37:55,040 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 2: camp that it should be called out. We could do

1466
01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:01,280
Speaker 2: it in certain cases again and understanding where people are

1467
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:05,240
Speaker 2: coming from, calling people in and helping them understand why

1468
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:09,120
Speaker 2: what they said is problematic, as opposed to automatically assuming

1469
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:12,600
Speaker 2: it came from an entirely malicious place. There are absolutely

1470
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 2: those who are engaging in full fledged malicious anti Semitism

1471
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 2: in this moment, and I think that's a clear red line.

1472
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 2: But there are also those who are inadvertently engaging in

1473
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:27,560
Speaker 2: anti Semitism without fully recognizing what they're doing, without recognizing

1474
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:31,479
Speaker 2: its impact, without recognizing the pain it causes. And we

1475
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:35,480
Speaker 2: can absolutely call it out and engage them.

1476
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:38,759
Speaker 1: But let's go back to the universities, which you've gotten

1477
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:45,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the ink publicity, where the Pen being

1478
01:38:45,040 --> 01:38:48,600
Speaker 1: a big example, Harvard being a big example. Where the

1479
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:55,600
Speaker 1: people who run these institutions will condemn everything, but what

1480
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 1: goes on with Israel in Jews or reverse they'll condemn

1481
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:02,960
Speaker 1: is but they'll let anybody else say anything. Now we

1482
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 1: have people like Rowan and Apollo, we're standing up with

1483
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 1: their money. These are big donors. But how do we

1484
01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 1: turn things around. Forget the students. We have a lot

1485
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:18,759
Speaker 1: of elderly college presidents who're not standing up for Israel

1486
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 1: and Jews.

1487
01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:24,519
Speaker 2: So this has been something I've been, you know, both

1488
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:26,439
Speaker 2: personally and professionally, been thinking a lot about it in

1489
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:28,680
Speaker 2: the last few weeks. And I've been fortunate to be

1490
01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 2: a part of a few meetings with the Department of

1491
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 2: Education and the Secretary of Education as part of a

1492
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 2: small group of Jewish leaders who met with him and

1493
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:38,080
Speaker 2: the Second Gentleman a few weeks ago. And there's two

1494
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,439
Speaker 2: sides to this point in terms of what we need

1495
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:43,439
Speaker 2: to be doing. There's the support that needs to be

1496
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 2: provided to college campuses for them to understand how they

1497
01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:53,639
Speaker 2: are actually creating campuses where students are free to practice religion,

1498
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:57,519
Speaker 2: where we're creating inclusive environments where Jewish students and all

1499
01:39:57,560 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 2: students feel like they could learn in a safe, sy

1500
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,880
Speaker 2: court of environment. And there's a number of things that

1501
01:40:02,920 --> 01:40:06,040
Speaker 2: can be done in that regard. But also the flip

1502
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:08,519
Speaker 2: side of that is the pressure point. It's the carrot

1503
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:11,200
Speaker 2: and the stick, and so under Title six, which is

1504
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:17,960
Speaker 2: a civil rights statute, Jews are entitled to be in

1505
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:20,639
Speaker 2: to be in schools, to be in an environment where

1506
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:25,240
Speaker 2: their fundamental rights are protected the same as any other community.

1507
01:40:25,280 --> 01:40:31,360
Speaker 2: And if schools are not enforcing those fundamental rights and

1508
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:36,679
Speaker 2: protecting those fundamental rights, it's then on the federal government

1509
01:40:36,920 --> 01:40:40,920
Speaker 2: to hold them accountable through these Title six complaints. And

1510
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 2: so specifically, there have been a number of asks by

1511
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,200
Speaker 2: those of us in the Jewish community in recent weeks

1512
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:48,880
Speaker 2: to surge resources into the Office of Civil Rights at

1513
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:51,200
Speaker 2: the Department of Ed so that they can more effectively

1514
01:40:51,240 --> 01:40:55,360
Speaker 2: and efficiently process these complaints, for them to provide direct

1515
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:58,519
Speaker 2: guidance to universities and colleges in addition to k through

1516
01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:02,120
Speaker 2: twelve schools reminding them of their civil rights obligations and

1517
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:09,080
Speaker 2: the seriousness of enforcing Title six, and to make the

1518
01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:16,280
Speaker 2: ability to submit a complaint even easier. And so we've

1519
01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:20,840
Speaker 2: seen some steps taken from the Department of ED. In fact,

1520
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:23,320
Speaker 2: just before I joined you, I was on a call

1521
01:41:23,439 --> 01:41:28,120
Speaker 2: with some Education Department officials where they shared some additional updates,

1522
01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:31,200
Speaker 2: including how they, for example, for the first time ever,

1523
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:34,599
Speaker 2: updated the form to specifically make clear that it applies

1524
01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:38,679
Speaker 2: to anti semitism to people of Israeli and Palestinian origin,

1525
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 2: or any of the other identities that have very specifically

1526
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 2: been targeted on campuses in the last five weeks. And

1527
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:51,240
Speaker 2: so there's two sides to this coin. There is the

1528
01:41:51,280 --> 01:41:56,320
Speaker 2: support that we should be providing to make sure university presidents, administrators,

1529
01:41:56,400 --> 01:42:00,800
Speaker 2: faculty are able to create free and inclusive and safe environments.

1530
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:03,759
Speaker 2: And when they can't do that, there is the pressure

1531
01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:08,880
Speaker 2: and the accountability that our federal government can undertake to

1532
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:11,560
Speaker 2: ensure that they're living up to their obligations.

1533
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:16,600
Speaker 1: Now, the most influential people in America or celebrities. Celebrities

1534
01:42:16,600 --> 01:42:19,960
Speaker 1: seem to take a stand on everything, but this Amy

1535
01:42:20,040 --> 01:42:23,479
Speaker 1: Schumer took a stand. She's excoriated every day.

1536
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 2: What do you tell celebrities, Well, I think there are

1537
01:42:29,120 --> 01:42:33,280
Speaker 2: many celebrities I've seen taking an important stand on this

1538
01:42:33,400 --> 01:42:37,240
Speaker 2: in the last few weeks. I think again, the loudest

1539
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:40,720
Speaker 2: voices tend to get outsized attention, and so those who

1540
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 2: have said the wrong things, who have either not shown

1541
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:51,480
Speaker 2: up in la ship or who have engaged in hateful

1542
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:58,120
Speaker 2: disinformation fuel posts might get outsized attention. But I've seen

1543
01:42:58,280 --> 01:43:01,760
Speaker 2: actually a number oflebrities, whether it be signing letters or

1544
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 2: otherwise engaging on this, that have stood up with the

1545
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:06,720
Speaker 2: Jewish community that have stood up for Israel, that have

1546
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,240
Speaker 2: said we might not agree with everything Israel is doing,

1547
01:43:09,320 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 2: we might not agree with this Israeli government, we might

1548
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:14,800
Speaker 2: not agree with every action of the IDF, but we

1549
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:17,840
Speaker 2: can agree that Israel has a right to defend itself,

1550
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:20,880
Speaker 2: that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that the hostages must

1551
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:24,479
Speaker 2: be free, and that the Jewish people in this moment

1552
01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:27,960
Speaker 2: are facing very real and severe ripple effects as it

1553
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 2: relates to anti Semitism here in the States. And so

1554
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:34,200
Speaker 2: what it means for celebrities or frankly, anyone to show

1555
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:37,080
Speaker 2: up in allieship with the Jews right now doesn't have

1556
01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 2: to necessarily look exactly the same from person to person,

1557
01:43:40,479 --> 01:43:44,599
Speaker 2: but rather having those baselines recognizing that we're not expecting

1558
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:47,559
Speaker 2: them to support and agree with the Israeli government or

1559
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:51,000
Speaker 2: everything that the IDF necessarily does. I know, I personally

1560
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:54,519
Speaker 2: do not, but I can still say that I support

1561
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 2: Israel and It's right to defend itself. I'm horrified by

1562
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:01,639
Speaker 2: Hamas and it's brutal terror attack, the hostages absolutely must

1563
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:05,599
Speaker 2: be freed, and that the anti Semitism that is coming

1564
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 2: out of this in massive waves as a result of

1565
01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:12,920
Speaker 2: this broader crisis is unacceptable and has no place here.

1566
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:15,720
Speaker 2: And how we engage and empower people to do that,

1567
01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:19,680
Speaker 2: to hit those baselines, to make those points, even as

1568
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:23,480
Speaker 2: they might disagree on a variety of different policy issues,

1569
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:26,400
Speaker 2: is going to be most important. And I just hope

1570
01:44:26,439 --> 01:44:29,680
Speaker 2: that people will continue to show up and call this

1571
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:33,799
Speaker 2: out because what we're seeing right now is how Jews

1572
01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:36,280
Speaker 2: and Jewish institutions and others in the United States are

1573
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 2: being targeted here simply because they're Jewish, under the guise

1574
01:44:40,160 --> 01:44:42,840
Speaker 2: of protesting the actions of the Israeli government. And it

1575
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 2: makes having people use their bully pulpits, whether it be

1576
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:51,040
Speaker 2: celebrities or government officials or others, that much more important

1577
01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:55,400
Speaker 2: because again, anti Semitism operates in these very insidious ways.

1578
01:44:55,680 --> 01:45:00,599
Speaker 2: There's the obvious swastikas on synagogues, but it's these conspiracy theories,

1579
01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:04,680
Speaker 2: these coded language, the more insidious ways anti Semitism operates.

1580
01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:07,840
Speaker 2: That makes those using their bully pulpit to call it

1581
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:09,080
Speaker 2: out that much more urgent.

1582
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:11,879
Speaker 1: And what about corporations.

1583
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:17,160
Speaker 2: There's so much that corporations can do, so I've been

1584
01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:19,600
Speaker 2: engaging with some of them, I've done workshops for some

1585
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 2: of them. There are many of my colleagues who have

1586
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 2: done the same. First and foremost, understanding anti semitism in

1587
01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 2: the context of your broader DEI work is important, right

1588
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:37,120
Speaker 2: attacks on Jews, anti Semitism, bigotry, and threats against Jews

1589
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:40,680
Speaker 2: must be understood as part of your broader obligation to

1590
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:45,479
Speaker 2: keep your employees safe full stop. But there's also a

1591
01:45:45,479 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 2: lot of education and work that needs to be done

1592
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:52,080
Speaker 2: in this moment. Your employees are probably struggling right now.

1593
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:54,760
Speaker 2: I know that for me. I even do this professionally,

1594
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:58,280
Speaker 2: but it's been a really painful five plus weeks. You

1595
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:03,040
Speaker 2: can't escape the and the horror of this moment. First

1596
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 2: with again the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust

1597
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:09,960
Speaker 2: on October seventh, and all of these sort of intergenerational

1598
01:46:10,040 --> 01:46:13,120
Speaker 2: trauma that that triggered for so many of us, and

1599
01:46:13,160 --> 01:46:15,800
Speaker 2: then the ripple effects of the anti semitism around the

1600
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 2: globe that has all of us fearful and isolated. And

1601
01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 2: so corporations, just like universities and so many other entities,

1602
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:28,400
Speaker 2: have a responsibility to make sure that their employees are

1603
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:32,519
Speaker 2: safe at work and hopefully to create environments that address

1604
01:46:32,600 --> 01:46:36,200
Speaker 2: this very real pain and fear that many are feeling

1605
01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 2: to empower their colleagues to understand what they're going through.

1606
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 2: And this cuts in multiple directions. The Jewish community is

1607
01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:44,639
Speaker 2: not alone right now in this pain and fear. We've

1608
01:46:44,680 --> 01:46:48,599
Speaker 2: seen very real instances of Islamophobia and anti Arab haid,

1609
01:46:48,680 --> 01:46:52,200
Speaker 2: including the murder of a six year old Palestinian American

1610
01:46:52,240 --> 01:46:55,519
Speaker 2: boy in Chicago a few weeks ago. And so all

1611
01:46:55,560 --> 01:47:00,479
Speaker 2: of these, all of these corporations and any other entity,

1612
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:06,720
Speaker 2: can do a lot to create safer spaces within their offices,

1613
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 2: within their organizations that recognize the challenge of this moment,

1614
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:17,760
Speaker 2: and that seek to make employees feel like they are

1615
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:22,160
Speaker 2: welcome and that their fears and their concerns will be

1616
01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:23,639
Speaker 2: heard if there is an incident.

1617
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:29,840
Speaker 1: I grew up my parents constantly talked about anti Semitism

1618
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:33,679
Speaker 1: and where Jews were in the world, and never forget

1619
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:39,760
Speaker 1: your Jewish identity. So, in light of what happened in October,

1620
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:42,719
Speaker 1: where's the light at the end of the tunnel? Where's

1621
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:46,680
Speaker 1: the optimism? Why should I feel upbeat like things are

1622
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,000
Speaker 1: going in the right direction? Yeah?

1623
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:55,040
Speaker 2: Well, look, I find two places for optimism. One again,

1624
01:47:55,120 --> 01:47:57,920
Speaker 2: it's easy for the loudest voices to get outsized attention,

1625
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:02,040
Speaker 2: and they write fully should be called out and held accountable,

1626
01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:06,200
Speaker 2: as we've been talking about. But for every person who

1627
01:48:06,200 --> 01:48:10,639
Speaker 2: has tweeted something heinous and awful or screamed something terrible

1628
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:13,400
Speaker 2: at a protest, there are so many others who have

1629
01:48:13,479 --> 01:48:16,200
Speaker 2: either shown up an allyship with our community, who have

1630
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 2: put out statements of support, who have rallied in different

1631
01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:25,720
Speaker 2: ways for Israel or for the Jewish community, elected officials,

1632
01:48:26,000 --> 01:48:31,000
Speaker 2: state legislative, black caucuses, labor union, so many others who

1633
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:34,840
Speaker 2: are actually out there saying that they stand in solidarity

1634
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:37,240
Speaker 2: with the Jewish people at this moment of deep pain.

1635
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:40,599
Speaker 2: And so we need to keep finding those bright spots

1636
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:44,120
Speaker 2: and amplifying those people who are actually showing up for us,

1637
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:47,400
Speaker 2: because again, the goal of extremist is to make us

1638
01:48:47,479 --> 01:48:50,400
Speaker 2: feel like we are isolated and alone, and by you know,

1639
01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:53,120
Speaker 2: it's very easy to do so when there are those loud,

1640
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:56,920
Speaker 2: horrific voices out there, and how we actually lift up

1641
01:48:56,960 --> 01:49:02,759
Speaker 2: the voices of allyship is our key is key. Second,

1642
01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:06,040
Speaker 2: I think, you know, this has really put a fine

1643
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:09,800
Speaker 2: point on just how urgent this crisis is. And I'm

1644
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:13,599
Speaker 2: having conversations that maybe five or six weeks ago wouldn't

1645
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:16,240
Speaker 2: have been possible with people who are understanding that they

1646
01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:18,920
Speaker 2: need to do more and do better on anti semitism

1647
01:49:18,920 --> 01:49:22,479
Speaker 2: in its various forms, that are looking for ways to

1648
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:26,679
Speaker 2: actually invest in and rebuild the sort of the broader

1649
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:28,679
Speaker 2: work on anti Semitism that we need, and I think

1650
01:49:28,720 --> 01:49:33,400
Speaker 2: specifically sort of from my purchase JCPA, the community relations

1651
01:49:33,439 --> 01:49:36,639
Speaker 2: that we know are inextricably linked with the broader fight

1652
01:49:36,680 --> 01:49:39,520
Speaker 2: against anti semitism. If we are not in deep relationship

1653
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:44,200
Speaker 2: with our neighbors, educating, empowering, talking to them about anti semitism,

1654
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:47,480
Speaker 2: their obligation to fight it, and how the anti Semitism

1655
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:50,680
Speaker 2: makes all of us less safe, all of our communities,

1656
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:56,040
Speaker 2: our democracy less safe and less stable, it's harder to

1657
01:49:56,120 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 2: expect these people to be showing up for us in

1658
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:03,719
Speaker 2: moments like this, And so I'm having conversations with people

1659
01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:05,960
Speaker 2: who are seeing the importance of this work for the

1660
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:09,120
Speaker 2: first time, who are seeking to work with us to

1661
01:50:09,240 --> 01:50:12,960
Speaker 2: build coalitions. As we head into twenty twenty four and

1662
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:14,680
Speaker 2: we know that so much is on the line for

1663
01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:18,200
Speaker 2: so many of our communities, there's actually an opportunity to

1664
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:22,280
Speaker 2: rebuild and strengthen some of these relationships between communities that

1665
01:50:22,360 --> 01:50:25,280
Speaker 2: might have been freed or strained in the last few weeks,

1666
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:29,280
Speaker 2: because we know that with so much at stake, we

1667
01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 2: have no obligation but continue to build coalitions and find

1668
01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:36,920
Speaker 2: ways to work together however possible. There are certainly red

1669
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:39,639
Speaker 2: lines there. There are people who have I think, made

1670
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:43,639
Speaker 2: crystal clear that this is not about disagreement on Israel,

1671
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:47,240
Speaker 2: but rather clear and explicit anti semitism, and I don't

1672
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 2: see it a way for us to work with those people.

1673
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:52,200
Speaker 2: But I think that for the vast majority of Americans,

1674
01:50:52,520 --> 01:50:56,400
Speaker 2: for the vast majority of partners, we are able to

1675
01:50:56,600 --> 01:51:00,800
Speaker 2: find a path forward that recognizes our shared future and

1676
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:04,880
Speaker 2: our safety is being inextricably linked. Because again, going into

1677
01:51:04,960 --> 01:51:11,360
Speaker 2: next year, with democracy at stake, with extremism increasingly normalized,

1678
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:14,320
Speaker 2: we have no obligation but to build those coalitions and

1679
01:51:14,360 --> 01:51:15,639
Speaker 2: to find those paths forward.

1680
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:21,679
Speaker 1: Well, Amy, you're certainly a bright spot doing God's work. Literally,

1681
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:24,280
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for taking this

1682
01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:25,520
Speaker 1: time with my audience.

1683
01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:27,960
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

1684
01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:31,599
Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob Left says