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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff one never told you, pro ic

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Speaker 2: gonna buy hurry you.

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Speaker 3: And today we are bringing back a classic for Father's Day,

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Speaker 3: which is this weekend as it comes out as always,

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Speaker 3: if for whatever reason Father's Day is a source of

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Speaker 3: pain or just for some reason it is not a

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Speaker 3: happy thing for you or not something you look forward

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Speaker 3: to or even want to think about, totally see you,

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Speaker 3: totally hear you. I thought it was last weekend, to

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Speaker 3: be honest, this weekend totally forgot. But we have done

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Speaker 3: a lot of episodes, you and I Samantha around around this,

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Speaker 3: around fathers and.

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Speaker 2: Even kind of culturally.

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Speaker 3: We were just talking about like the term daddy, and

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Speaker 3: we've done daddy issues. This is one that we haven't

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Speaker 3: brought back. It is a classic that Kristen and Caroline

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Speaker 3: did who were the previous host slash creator, and it

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Speaker 3: was around single dads. And we've talked a lot before

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Speaker 3: about the differences in how we perceive single dads and

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Speaker 3: single moms.

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Speaker 1: But I have been.

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Speaker 3: Reading a bit lately and I would love listenership write

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Speaker 3: in about this about a slow shift and where there

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Speaker 3: are more stay at home dads are more single dads

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Speaker 3: and more instances of that happening and it being slightly

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Speaker 3: more normal as opposed to like, oh wow, he's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I think that's still there. But that's definitely still there

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Speaker 3: in our media, I would say. But I would love

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Speaker 3: to come back and look into that more because that

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Speaker 3: was something that came up a lot during the pandemic

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Speaker 3: and gender roles in terms of very head noorm of

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Speaker 3: sense in terms of who was doing the caretaking and

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Speaker 3: how we A lot of times single moms are just

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Speaker 3: expected to do a bunch more stuff. So I would

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Speaker 3: like to look into single dads. I would like to

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Speaker 3: check in on single dads to see.

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Speaker 2: What's up with that, a more updated look.

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Speaker 3: But in the meantime, please enjoy this classic episode.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff

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Speaker 4: worts dot com.

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Speaker 1: A little and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and

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Speaker 1: I'm Kristin.

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Speaker 4: And in celebration of Father's Day, we are connecting this

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Speaker 4: episode with the episode we did for Mother's Day on

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Speaker 4: single Moms, and so today we want to talk to

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Speaker 4: you about single dads because we can't leave out that

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Speaker 4: very important portion of the popular So we want to

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Speaker 4: celebrate dads, and today we're looking at those of you

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Speaker 4: who are going it alone.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's a good time to be talking about

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Speaker 5: single dads, not just because Father's Day was yesterday, but

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Speaker 5: because single dads are on the rise and they're making

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Speaker 5: a lot of headlines. For instance, in July twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 5: the Pe Research Center reported that a record eight percent

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Speaker 5: of households with minor children in the US are now

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Speaker 5: headed by a single father, which is up from just

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Speaker 5: over one percent in nineteen sixty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Pew talks about how.

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Speaker 6: That's a ninefold increase since nineteen sixty, from less than

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Speaker 6: three hundred thousand to more than two point six million

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Speaker 6: and twenty eleven. And for a comparison, the number of

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Speaker 6: single mother households increased more than just fourfold during that

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Speaker 6: time period, up to eight point six million and twenty

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Speaker 6: eleven from one point nine million in nineteen sixty. And

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Speaker 6: single dads have also increased as a percentage of all

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Speaker 6: single parents. In nineteen sixty, about fourteen percent of single

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Speaker 6: parent households.

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Speaker 1: Were headed by dads.

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Speaker 6: Today that's almost one quarter twenty four percent.

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Speaker 5: And then for another percent in twenty eleven, and single

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Speaker 5: dads made up eighteen point three percent of custodial parents,

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Speaker 5: which is when a person has full time solo custody

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Speaker 5: of the kids. And this isn't just a demographic change

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Speaker 5: happening in the US. Our Canadian neighbors as well are

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Speaker 5: also seeing the rise of single dads. According to the

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Speaker 5: twenty eleven Canadian Census, there was an eight percent jump

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Speaker 5: in the number of single parent homes and of those,

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Speaker 5: you have a sixteen point two percent increase in single

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Speaker 5: dad led households in two thousand and eleven, which outpaced

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Speaker 5: the former increase of fourteen percent from two thousand and

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Speaker 5: one to two thousand and six. So that is a

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Speaker 5: lot of percent to say that we have been on

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Speaker 5: a steady climb in the number of single dad led households.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, if you listen to our single

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Speaker 6: Mom episode, which I know you did, I hope so.

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Speaker 6: But there are a lot of factors going into the

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Speaker 6: rise in single dads that also accompany the rise in

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Speaker 6: single moms. For instance, in general, there's just been an

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Speaker 6: increase in the share of non marital births in general,

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Speaker 6: and so that's why it's important when we mentioned the

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Speaker 6: custodial parents earlier, because there are a lot of different types.

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Speaker 6: As we'll explain further in a minute, there are a

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Speaker 6: lot of different types of single parents.

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Speaker 1: It's not just people who have solo custody.

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Speaker 5: There's also people who are divorced or widowed, et cetera,

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Speaker 5: et cetera. Yeah, and to get an idea of how

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Speaker 5: that share of the non marital births as they're called

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Speaker 5: so clinically has increased. According to the Centers for Disease

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Speaker 5: Control and Prevention, forty point seven percent of all US

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Speaker 5: births now in the United States are two unmarried women.

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Speaker 5: But again, even though those women are unmarried, that doesn't

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Speaker 5: necessarily mean they don't have a partner or you know,

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Speaker 5: like we said, there are many different types of single parents.

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Speaker 6: Right, And speaking of divorce, the rates have leveled off,

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Speaker 6: but they're still higher than they were in the nineteen

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Speaker 6: sixties and seventies, which means more single parents.

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Speaker 1: And there's also issues around the legal system.

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Speaker 6: Some experts suggest that changes in the legal system and

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Speaker 6: laws in various states have led to more opportunities for

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Speaker 6: fathers to gain at least partial custody of children in

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Speaker 6: the event of a breakup.

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Speaker 1: A lot of that has to do with the.

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Speaker 6: Way that we perceive fathers in general, and the way

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Speaker 6: we perceive single fathers in particular, but also the way

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Speaker 6: that they see themselves.

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Speaker 5: Right, the public perception of single fatherhood and simply the

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Speaker 5: role of a dad and a family and his role

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Speaker 5: with child rearing has evolved so much, particularly in the

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Speaker 5: past forty or fifty years, because you know, we've seen

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Speaker 5: these household and gender roles for men shifting since the

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Speaker 5: nineteen sixties, away from that idea that you know, dads

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Speaker 5: just go to work and they bring home the bacon

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Speaker 5: and that's kind of it, whereas mom takes care of

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Speaker 5: the kids and so on.

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Speaker 1: For instance, mad Men.

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Speaker 5: Not to completely fictionalize this conversation, but you know, Don

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Speaker 5: Draper gets a divorce from Betty spoiler alert, and the

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Speaker 5: kids live with Betty and then they come every now

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Speaker 5: and then.

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Speaker 1: To visit him.

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Speaker 5: Because back then it was more of the idea that,

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Speaker 5: you know, a full time single dad that would be

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Speaker 5: kind of nutty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be nutty. But now now we're not

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Speaker 1: so opposed to the.

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Speaker 6: Idea, the idea that guys might be single dads and

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Speaker 6: or gets soul custody in the event of a divorce

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Speaker 6: doesn't seem totally alien. And it's funny though, to go

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Speaker 6: back and look at just the histrionics that surrounded men

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Speaker 6: being the caregivers for children. The Atlantic had a great

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Speaker 6: post looking at postcards that were going around target getting

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Speaker 6: men fathers in particular during the suffrage movement.

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Speaker 1: There was no gray area.

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Speaker 6: It was like a zero sum game where either the

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Speaker 6: man was at home and he was making the money

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Speaker 6: and he was in control and the wife was home

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Speaker 6: taking care of the kids, or as they feared would

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Speaker 6: happen if women gained the vote, the women would put

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Speaker 6: on pants and march right out of the home and

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Speaker 6: start working.

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Speaker 1: And the men would be left attend to the children. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: One of the tropes from that time was something called

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Speaker 5: the Suffragette Madonna, and it's this hilarious image of this

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Speaker 5: befuddled guy, this dad looking character, holding a baby and

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Speaker 5: he's you know, he's in like a suit, but he

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Speaker 5: also has a halo around his head because oh, well,

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Speaker 5: his wife won the right to vote, so now he's

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Speaker 5: got to be home taking care of the baby. And

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Speaker 5: that was at that time such a radical idea in

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Speaker 5: terms of, you know, the gender roles then that it was.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it was one of the major platforms arguing

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Speaker 5: against giving women the vote because well, if you do that,

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Speaker 5: slippery slope to men having to be involved fathers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know who wants that fathers anyway.

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Speaker 6: So, like we said, now the public is really starting

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Speaker 6: to acknowledge men as more than just breadwinners.

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Speaker 1: They're also caregivers too.

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Speaker 6: And the New York Times did a piece on single

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Speaker 6: dads by choice. We talked about single moms by choice

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Speaker 6: in our last episode, but talking about how these guys

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Speaker 6: nowadays who are becoming dads, their new dads come from

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Speaker 6: the generations who really believed in feminism, preached equal rights

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Speaker 6: and civil rights, and so they grew up believing in

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Speaker 6: gender equality. And they talked to David Klow, who's a

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Speaker 6: psychotherapist who runs men's groups at the Family Institute at

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Speaker 6: Northwestern University, and he said, there's a new sense of

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Speaker 6: masculinity that incorporates being a single father, accomplished and successful

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Speaker 6: the business world, but also very.

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Speaker 1: Loving and caring.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and if you look at time use data, you

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Speaker 5: see that even today, yes, moms tend to spend whether

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Speaker 5: they're working or if they're you know, full.

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Speaker 1: Time stay at home moms.

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Speaker 5: No matter what the situation is, women tend to spend

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Speaker 5: more time caring for the kids, but fathers are spending

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Speaker 5: more time with their children than ever before. So, for instance,

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Speaker 5: the Pew Research Center found that in twenty eleven, dads

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Speaker 5: were spending seven hours a week on childcare and ten

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Speaker 5: hours a week on housework, which is half of what

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Speaker 5: mothers do. But that's still a huge leap from nineteen

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Speaker 5: sixty five, when dads did only two and a half

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Speaker 5: hours a week of childcare and four hours of housework.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and I mean people kind of fully expect that

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Speaker 6: now they expect more from their from the from their dads,

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Speaker 6: I mean, society does more. From the Pew Research Center,

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Speaker 6: they found that the public believes that the father's greatest

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Speaker 6: role is to provide values to his children, followed by

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Speaker 6: emotional support, discipline, and income support, which really isn't that

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Speaker 6: far off from what the values that they ascribed to

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Speaker 6: mothers women needing to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and speaking of madmen, you can see this kind

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Speaker 5: of shift too in our public perception of the important

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Speaker 5: role of fathers with their kids. In how dads are

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Speaker 5: portrayed in advertising. There was a now somewhat infamous Huggies

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Speaker 5: diaper campaign a few years back that portrayed dads having

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Speaker 5: to change a diaper as like the ultimate test of

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Speaker 5: these diapers, like amazing qualities because of a dud can.

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Speaker 1: Do it, then anybody can do it.

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Speaker 5: And they ended up having to pull the campaign because

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Speaker 5: a lot of guys took offense at that of like,

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Speaker 5: excuse me, involved father, here, I can change a diaper.

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Speaker 5: You know this is this is a new generation we're

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Speaker 5: talking about now, these guys who are scared of changing diapers.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel like we're definitely in a time period

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Speaker 6: where we're getting more and more pushback against ads and

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Speaker 6: marketing that just depicts men as dopey and uninvolved and

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Speaker 6: uninterested and all they do is make the money.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know how to take out the garbage.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you actually see ads now of dads driving the

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Speaker 5: kids places, or dads doing the laundry or doing the dishes.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that.

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Speaker 6: It's not just mom at home doing it while the

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Speaker 6: dad does other things. Right, And as far as I mean,

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Speaker 6: as far as perceptions go, they're also very important when

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Speaker 6: it comes to actual court situations divorce, custody, because men

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Speaker 6: used to assume that there was no way that they

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Speaker 6: would get custody of their kids in a divorce, so

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Speaker 6: they were generally just less likely to fight to get it,

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Speaker 6: whether they were fighting the courts or just the mom.

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Speaker 6: And this is coming from an article that The Atlantic

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Speaker 6: did in February twenty fourteen talking about this this rise

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Speaker 6: in single dads.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this childs the issue is a huge factor. Like

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Speaker 5: we said, in this increasing you know a number of

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Speaker 5: guys who are fighting for custody for their kids or

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Speaker 5: just getting custody for their kids because sometimes, as the

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Speaker 5: Atlantic author was talking about, it can be easier to

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Speaker 5: just give someone soul custody, and sometimes the mom doesn't

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Speaker 5: want to have soul custody of the kids. But it

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Speaker 5: took a long time for the courts to wrap their

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Speaker 5: heads around this notion that dads can be equally good

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Speaker 5: parents to kids as mothers can be, because for a

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Speaker 5: long time, the knee jerk assumption was, oh, well, mothers

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Speaker 5: are more fit for raising kids, So custody is going

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Speaker 5: to go with the mom. Even in cases if you have,

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Speaker 5: say an unwed couple and they split up, but they've

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Speaker 5: got to you know, she has the kid, and she

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Speaker 5: meets someone else.

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Speaker 1: They want to get married, and then he, you know,

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Speaker 1: the new guy wants.

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Speaker 5: To adopt the kid. The court would be like, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 5: it's fine because the unwed father, you know, he's like

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Speaker 5: just kind of over there doing his stuff, and like

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Speaker 5: the kid needs to stay with the mom no matter what.

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Speaker 5: But then in nineteen seventy two you have the case

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Speaker 5: Stanley v. Illinois that really started to you know, start

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Speaker 5: this domino effect of granting fathers more custody rights because

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Speaker 5: this was the first time the court considered the custodial

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Speaker 5: rights of unmarried biological fathers. And it was this case

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Speaker 5: of Joan and Peter Stanley who lived together for eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: They had three.

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Speaker 5: Kids together, never got married, Joan died, and the state

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Speaker 5: automatically gave the kids. It made the kids like wardens

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Speaker 5: of the state because they just assumed, well, Peter Stanley, you're,

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Speaker 5: you know, this unwed father certainly can't be, you know,

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Speaker 5: fit to raise children. He ended up fighting it and

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Speaker 5: it went all the way up to the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 5: and the Supreme Court, under the Protection Clause in the

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Speaker 5: Fourteenth Amendment, granted him custody of his kids. Basically, saying

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Speaker 5: that they should only be taken away on proof of

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Speaker 5: being unfit or neglectful. And this was really interpreted as

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Speaker 5: a ruling of gender equality and was applied in a

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Speaker 5: lot of other different custodial cases.

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Speaker 1: But even still, I mean, that was nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: and it still took a.

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Speaker 5: Long time for states to gradually move away from that

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Speaker 5: automatically siding with the biological mother. So, for example, the

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Speaker 5: Sanley versus Illinois ruling helped invalidate a provision in the

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Speaker 5: New York domestic relations law that gave unwood mothers but

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Speaker 5: not fathers, the right to adopt their kids. So talk about,

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Speaker 5: you know, an equality issue right there. So there was

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Speaker 5: definitely a step in the right direction because you know,

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Speaker 5: fathers should be able to I think, have a.

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Speaker 1: Say in that kind of legal matter.

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Speaker 6: Well, it doesn't even make sense to me, like me now,

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Speaker 6: Andy fourteen, as a thirty year old woman, it doesn't

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Speaker 6: even make sense to me that you're the father and

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Speaker 6: you're not the first choice on like being able to

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Speaker 6: adopt kids or get Yeah, I don't know, it doesn't

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Speaker 6: make any sense. But really, the ball got rolling in

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Speaker 6: the early two thousands when many states began adopting legislation

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Speaker 6: providing for joint physical custody and which is different than

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Speaker 6: just joint legal custody. These policies were supposed to encourage

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Speaker 6: basically both parents to spend equal time with the kid,

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Speaker 6: but interestingly, it seemed to spark a rise in single dads.

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Speaker 6: And the perfect example that they give is from a

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Speaker 6: study in the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies in twenty

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Speaker 6: eleven that looked at the state of Oregon, which in

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Speaker 6: nineteen ninety seven became one of the first states to

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Speaker 6: formally enact joint parenting legislation. Before this happened, Oregon's custody

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Speaker 6: law had favored joint legal custody, so the parents both

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Speaker 6: have a say in decisions made about the child, but

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Speaker 6: not joint physical custody.

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Speaker 1: After the new law.

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Speaker 6: Oregon courts defaulted to joint parenting, encouraging the child to

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Speaker 6: spend half her time with dad and half with mom.

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Speaker 6: But in Oregon, after this law, it ended up swaying

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Speaker 6: way more towards dads. Why what's going on Because the

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Speaker 6: changing laws are actually empowering dads to ask for more.

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Speaker 6: It's not that like Oregon puts this law and effect,

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Speaker 6: and all of a sudden, all these deadbeat moms are like, hah,

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Speaker 6: finally I'm free. It's just that dad's perceptions of themselves,

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Speaker 6: of the way things should be, of the way things

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Speaker 6: can be, are starting to change.

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Speaker 1: And so previously, you know, decades and decades before, dad's just.

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Speaker 6: Assumed like, Okay, well, I'm just going to see him

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Speaker 6: on the weekends, or I'll see him every other weekend

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Speaker 6: or whatever, when really they're now starting to think, and

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Speaker 6: they're backed by the courts and starting to think, oh,

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Speaker 6: I can take more responsibility. I want to take more responsibility,

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Speaker 6: and I'm going.

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Speaker 5: To ask yeah, and not to say that it's always

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Speaker 5: illegal and cheap cake walk to get custody rights if you.

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Speaker 1: Are, you know, a father.

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Speaker 5: And I'm sure that we'll hear from some dads out

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Speaker 5: there who have or maybe are going through these kinds

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Speaker 5: of custody issues, because there are still plenty of courts

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Speaker 5: that do tend to side more with the mom. But

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Speaker 5: there's definitely been so much progress since that Stanley v.

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Speaker 5: Illinois decision, I mean, and even the fact Caroline that

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Speaker 5: in contrast to our episode on Single Moms where we

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Speaker 5: trace the history back centuries I mean the history, at

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Speaker 5: least legally speaking in the US kind of just starts

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Speaker 5: in the seventies. Yeah, I mean that speaks to how

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Speaker 5: significant of a change this is.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that goes beyond assuming, that goes beyond assuming that like, oh,

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Speaker 6: women are the better parents and mothers and kids should

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Speaker 6: be with that.

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Speaker 1: That's a belief system. That's just like you believe that

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Speaker 1: that's the way.

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Speaker 6: And so it makes sense then in that context that

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Speaker 6: it took so long to change. But now, like I said,

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Speaker 6: being in twenty fourteen, I can't imagine.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, it's like you saying that reminds me of

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Speaker 5: one of the sources we were reading talking about how

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Speaker 5: our ideas of motherhood and fatherhood in a lot of

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Speaker 5: ways sort of like gender is very much a construct,

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Speaker 5: like influenced by culture.

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Speaker 1: And time and the media, et cetera.

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Speaker 5: So the good thing is I feel like that our construct,

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Speaker 5: our fatherhood construct, has only developed in a more positive way.

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Speaker 5: And speaking again of single dads in particular, who who

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Speaker 5: are these guys, Caroline, Who are these these fellas?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So that twenty thirteen report that Pew release looking

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Speaker 6: at the rise in single fathers, it is worth specifying

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Speaker 6: who they were looking at. So fathers in that Pew

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Speaker 6: report are fifteen years or older, They are the head

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Speaker 6: of their household, They are living with their own own

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Speaker 6: minor children, whether those children are biological step children or adopted.

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Speaker 6: Pugh excluded fathers who are living in a household headed

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Speaker 6: by someone else, and fathers whose children are not living

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Speaker 6: with them, and they broke down why these guys are

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Speaker 6: single fathers. About half fifty two percent are separated, divorced, widowed,

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Speaker 6: or never married, and are living without a cohabitating partner.

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Speaker 1: However, some forty one percent are living with a non

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Speaker 1: marital partner.

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Speaker 6: So again there's that whole like murky area where okay,

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Speaker 6: you're technically legally a single dad, but you might have

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Speaker 6: somebody living with you. Only seven percent are married still

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Speaker 6: but living apart from their spouse with custody of the kids.

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Speaker 5: And when we compare fathers heading households solo versus fathers

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Speaker 5: in two parent households, we do see similar patterns as

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Speaker 5: we talked about in the single Mom's episode, because single

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Speaker 5: dads do tend to be younger, a little bit less educated,

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Speaker 5: less financially well off, and less likely to be white,

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Speaker 5: and also less likely to be in full time jobs.

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Speaker 5: So this also brings up than this issue of parental resources,

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Speaker 5: and we'll get into.

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Speaker 1: Some more comparisons in a minute.

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Speaker 6: We definitely want to look at single moms versus single dads.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of statistics out there that we

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Speaker 1: want to throw at you, but we'll get right into

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Speaker 1: that after a quick break.

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Speaker 5: So we just talked about how single fathers and single

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Speaker 5: moms share some demographic similarities, but there are also some

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Speaker 5: differences worth noting aside from the fact that single fathers

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Speaker 5: tend to be men, single mothers tend to be women.

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Speaker 5: Beyond that, single fathers are more likely than single mothers

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Speaker 5: to be living with a cohabitating partner, far likelier actually

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Speaker 5: a forty one percent versus sixteen percent, but those cohabitating

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Speaker 5: guys tend to be younger.

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Speaker 1: Single dads who are over forty.

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Speaker 5: Typically live with just the kids a La Louis c

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Speaker 5: k who yes, we will talk about a little bit

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Speaker 5: more later in the podcast.

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Speaker 6: And also compared to single moms, single dads are more

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Speaker 6: likely to be white, and they're more likely to.

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Speaker 1: Own their own home.

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Speaker 6: Two thirds of single dads own their own home, while

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Speaker 6: two thirds of single moms rent and generally, single dads

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Speaker 6: are older than single moms. Fifty two percent of them

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Speaker 6: are under forty compared to sixty two percent of single moms,

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Speaker 6: whereas forty seven percent of them are over forty compared

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Speaker 6: to thirty eight percent of single moms.

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Speaker 1: So there are some.

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Speaker 5: Interesting demographic breakdowns. I mean, obviously, you know, single dads,

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Speaker 5: same as single moms, are not a monolithic group, but

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Speaker 5: there are some standout differences, particularly when.

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Speaker 1: It comes to this income issue.

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Speaker 5: Because single fathers, even though they tend to have less money,

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Speaker 5: make less money, tend to they're less likely to be

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Speaker 5: in a full time job than married fathers, but compared

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Speaker 5: to single mothers, they tend to have higher incomes and

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Speaker 5: are far less likely to be living at or below

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Speaker 5: the poverty line twenty four percent versus forty three percent

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Speaker 5: of single moms living below the poverty line, which again

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Speaker 5: brings up another contrast to our single mom's issue, where

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Speaker 5: we spent a lot of time talking about government resources

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Speaker 5: and kind of bridging the gap for single moms who

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Speaker 5: need more assistance, whereas Caroline, I saw very little of

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Speaker 5: the same kind of information targeted to dads. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 5: and when you look at how much money these guys

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Speaker 5: are bringing home every year.

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Speaker 6: The average amount for a single dad household of three

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Speaker 6: is a lot less than that of a married father.

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Speaker 6: So the single dads tend to bring home about forty

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Speaker 6: thousand dollars a year, whereas married fathers tend to bring

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Speaker 6: home about seventy thousand on average. But even though that's

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Speaker 6: a lot lower than married fathers, it's more than single

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Speaker 6: mom who bring home a media and adjusted annual income

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Speaker 6: for that three person household of only twenty six thousand dollars.

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Speaker 5: So how do these demographic differences dad v. Mom?

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Speaker 1: How does all this shakeout for the kids?

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Speaker 5: Are there differences between single dad and single mom parenting?

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Speaker 5: A lot of the studies that we looked at found that, really,

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Speaker 5: when all the data shakes out, there's not a huge

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Speaker 5: difference because when it comes to parenting, as is the

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Speaker 5: same case if you talk about LGBT parenting and how

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Speaker 5: sexual orientation influences child outcomes, it's not so much gender

441
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 5: sexual orientation those kinds of factors that influence child outcomes,

442
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 5: but rather this.

443
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: Issue of resources.

444
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, and so if you look at school, for instance,

445
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 5: there have been a lot of studies on how kids

446
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 5: of single parents fare at school, and a a lot

447
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 5: of studies have mainly shown that it's not the dad

448
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 5: versus mom, man versus woman factor. It's more the socioeconomic

449
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 5: factors and kind of having just one parent. So like

450
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 5: when I was growing up, you know, I had mom

451
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 5: there who was cooking dinner and making sure I got dressed.

452
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 5: I had dad to help me with my math homework.

453
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 5: You know, there was always one parent available to help

454
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 5: drive me somewhere while the other took care of I

455
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 5: don't know, bills.

456
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: Or work or whatever they had to do.

457
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 6: Whether you're a man or a woman, if you're a

458
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 6: single parent, I think as any single parent could attest,

459
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 6: where's the other person to go help you do some things?

460
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 6: Like they talked to one single dad I think in

461
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 6: the New York Times who said, you know, as a

462
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 6: single parent, if you if it's ten o'clock at night

463
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 6: and your five year old's in bed and you realize

464
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 6: you don't have any milk for the.

465
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 5: Next day, who's going to go out and get the milk?

466
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 5: But anyway, I digress, So dogs should be better trained.

467
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: Cats can't get that milk. Get a cat to go

468
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: out and get milk or a rumba. It's yes, and

469
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: they're perfect.

470
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 6: So there was a study in the Journal of Family

471
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 6: Issues from nineteen ninety four that looked at data from

472
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 6: the nineteen eighty eight National Longitudinal Study, and so I

473
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 6: realized that that's very dated, but there's still trends that

474
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 6: are very relevant. They found that children from single father

475
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 6: and single mother families perform about the same at school,

476
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 6: but both are outperformed by children from two parent families,

477
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 6: So when you look more closely at dad versus mom,

478
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 6: they said that a lack of economic resources explains.

479
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: The school difficulties of kids from single mother families, And yes,

480
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: that's from a.

481
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 6: Long time ago, but it still makes sense in twenty fourteen,

482
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 6: considering single moms makes so much less than single dads.

483
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 6: And they found also that a lack of interpersonal parental

484
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 6: resources provides a more accurate description for why children from

485
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 6: single father families do poorly in school. But maybe that's

486
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 6: changing as our views of single dads now and their views.

487
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: Of themselves change.

488
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, and sort of along these same lines, there was

489
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 5: a more recent study that came out in twenty ten

490
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 5: in the Journal of Men, Marriage and Family, which found

491
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 5: that while there might be some small differences in parenting

492
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 5: behaviors of single mothers and single fathers, these differences are

493
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 5: often sensitive to demographic disparities and don't really translate to

494
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 5: academic deficits for children in either family type. So it's

495
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 5: not like, oh, well, if Susie's going to go live

496
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 5: with dad, then her grades are going to plummet, so

497
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 5: Susie should live with mom instead. Like, as long as

498
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 5: Susie's mom and dad are both as engaged as.

499
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: They can be, she will do all right. Yeah, the

500
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: kids will be all right. The kids are all right.

501
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 6: But there are benefits of dealing with dads, some psychologists

502
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 6: and sociologists would argue, and one of those.

503
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: Factors is play.

504
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 6: W Brad Wilcox, who's a sociologist at UVA and studies

505
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 6: marriage and families, said that dads are actually more likely

506
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 6: to rough house play than moms, which is a style of.

507
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: Play that helps teach kids to control.

508
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 6: Their bodies and their emotions. And I'm thinking, I'm like,

509
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 6: my dad never rough house with me.

510
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: But then again, I don't know. He was forty when

511
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: they had me, so maybe he was done with the

512
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: rough housing.

513
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was the last after a lot of kids.

514
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 5: So I remember some rough house play when I was small,

515
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 5: but I think by the time I got like a

516
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 5: little bit older, he was.

517
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: Probably worn out.

518
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 6: No, dad was constantly reinforcing how much is back hurt?

519
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 6: So there was no there were no more piggyback rides.

520
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 6: But as far as play and exploration and all that

521
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 6: stuff goes, fathers are also more likely to encourage their

522
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 6: kids to embrace risk, both on the playground and in life.

523
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 6: This influences will Cox, says, the ambitions of children over

524
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 6: the long run.

525
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, there have been so many studies in recent years

526
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 5: really digging into the role of fatherhood and how it,

527
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 5: you know, interacts with child outcomes, because I think for

528
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 5: so long people had just been focusing on moms and

529
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 5: they found all of these these findings that aren't terribly surprising, which,

530
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 5: as you know, the thing about the rough house play,

531
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 5: which makes sense because you know, maybe guys are a

532
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 5: little more just rough house in their play. I know

533
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 5: that my brothers were more rough house than my sisters were.

534
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 5: And then if you look at you know, dads who

535
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 5: believe in gender equality, no big surprise that their daughters

536
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 5: tend to have higher career ambitions compared to dads who

537
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 5: have more sexist beliefs. And in fact, though this is important,

538
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 5: dad's gender beliefs were more influential on their daughters than

539
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 5: their mom's beliefs.

540
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 6: I'm I think that's incredibly important. And I think it's

541
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 6: interesting because I mean, you know the whole thing about oh,

542
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 6: we marry our dads or we look for men who

543
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 6: are like our dads. Well, if your dad is more

544
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 6: likely to support gender equality, believe in feminism and kind

545
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 6: of instill those values in you, that says a lot.

546
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 5: And that kind of paternal investment in terms of rough

547
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 5: house play or talking about gender equality or disciplining whatever

548
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 5: it might be, that involvement all also translates to better

549
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 5: outcomes for kids in school as well. We just touched

550
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 5: on school, but the National Center for Education Statistics has

551
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 5: also found that father's involvement in school is associated with

552
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 5: a higher likelihood of students getting mostly a's.

553
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 1: And that's true not just for two parent families, but

554
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: also in dad only households. Yeah.

555
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's really important to point out that

556
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 6: it's in both types of families, in the circumstance that

557
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 6: it is that fatherly involvement. Knowing that your dad has

558
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 6: invested that you're more likely to get all a's.

559
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: There's also the involvement in schools.

560
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 6: Students living in father only families are the most likely

561
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 6: of all students to have highly involved fathers. Forty six

562
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 6: percent of such students have fathers who are highly involved

563
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 6: in their schools. So whether that's volunteering, being on the PTA,

564
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 6: you know, coaching the soccer team, well, and that makes

565
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 6: sense because they have they don't have a.

566
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 5: Roomba who can go to you know, the pace meetings,

567
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: and single dads are actually likelier than stepdads biological fathers

568
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 5: with a stepmother in the home and two parent households,

569
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 5: the two biological parent households to attend parent teacher conferences,

570
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 5: school meetings, school events, and volunteer. So single dads in

571
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 5: a lot of ways are knocking it out of the park.

572
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I mean it makes sense because I just

573
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 6: wonder if you know, we're falling back on those social

574
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 6: norms and expectations, gender expectations when in two parent households,

575
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 6: the mom seeses control of the PTA responsibilities, whereas the

576
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 6: dad's like, I'll.

577
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: Just let you do that.

578
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think it's so easy. And I'm now

579
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 5: straying off into anecdote for a moment. It's kind of

580
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 5: easy in a heterosexual couple to just fall back on

581
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 5: sort of the traditional gender roles that might have been

582
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 5: modeled for us, because in my family, mom, you know,

583
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 5: my mom cooked dinner and did the dishes, and my

584
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 5: dad worked and mowed the lawn. And I now see

585
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 5: in the patterns of my own life, I just need

586
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 5: your kind of.

587
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: Well, I'll go to the grocery store, you stay home

588
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: and change the light bulbs.

589
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 5: Did this happen like two days ago, maybe, Caroline, it

590
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 5: just happens.

591
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: Well, no, And I mean it's beyond anecdote.

592
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 6: We talked about this in our Egalitarian Household episode, looking

593
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 6: at straight couples versus gay couples, or same sex versus

594
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 6: opposite sex couples, and how even the most like super

595
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 6: feminist women right women's rights progressive couples, once they get married, it's.

596
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: Like, oh, I'm the man, you're the woman.

597
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 5: Well, and especially too when it comes to that child rearing.

598
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we just cided the statistic a few minutes.

599
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 5: Ago about how even though dads are doing more than

600
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 5: ever before. Moms are still doing twice as much, but

601
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 5: there are some single dads who are doing it for

602
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 5: themselves and by their own choice. We talked about single

603
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 5: moms by choice in our Single Mom's episode.

604
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: These are men who are sort of going.

605
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 5: Out of their way because they want to be moms

606
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 5: that they don't want to have the traditional They don't

607
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 5: want to find somebody, you know, and have to go

608
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 5: through all of that.

609
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: They're just like, oh, well, I will.

610
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 5: Adopt, I will get you know, in vitro, I will

611
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 5: have a baby because I just want to be a mom.

612
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 5: And there are more and more guys who are doing this. Example,

613
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 5: Ricky Martin of Living Leavita, Loca Fame adopted twins not

614
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 5: too long ago and he intends to raise them as

615
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 5: a single dad. Yeah, he's a single dad by choice, right,

616
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 5: live in Leavida Loca.

617
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: He is live in Levita Dad. Yeah, different kind of

618
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: Loca these days, right Yeah.

619
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 6: The New York Times, NPR, ABC News, they all looked

620
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 6: into this whole rise of single father thing, but also

621
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 6: the rise of single fathers by choice, and The New

622
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 6: York Times reported that surrogacy.

623
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 5: Agencies, adoption agencies, and father support groups are all reporting

624
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 5: that they're seeing more single fathers by choice. A lot

625
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 5: of these guys happened to be gay, but the number

626
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 5: of straight guys looking to go it alone are on

627
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 5: the increase too. Yeah, there was a statistic in that

628
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 5: New York Times article that jumped out to me. They

629
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 5: cited two thousand eight data from the National Center for

630
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 5: Health Statistics which found that men age eighteen to forty

631
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 5: four are twice as likely as women of the same

632
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 5: age group two have adopted a child. Now, that's partially

633
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 5: explained by men being likelier to adopt step children, but

634
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 5: the report also found that seventy three thousand never married

635
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 5: men had also adopted a child, and that group includes

636
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 5: those who are single fathers by choice.

637
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 6: Right, And you know this whole time, we've been talking

638
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 6: a lot about changes in society, changes in perception of

639
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 6: what's possible, and Steve Majors, who's the communications director for

640
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 6: the same sex advocacy group Family Equality Council, says it's

641
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 6: the same thing for gay men.

642
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: He says that a lot of young gay men once.

643
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 6: Believed that living in open gay life meant not having children.

644
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: That you were either straight or that you were closeted.

645
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 6: And then you had a family, or that you were

646
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 6: just gay and single with no kids.

647
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: But now, as you said.

648
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 5: We're seeing this rise in different technology and whether that's IVF,

649
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 5: whether they're adopting, but we're seeing alongside the rise of

650
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 5: same sex marriage, we're also seeing a rise in gay

651
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 5: men pioneering the use of reproductive technology to have kids.

652
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 5: And we're also seeing a legal evolution as well, in

653
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 5: addition to what we were talking about in terms of

654
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 5: men being able to get child custody, but also legal

655
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 5: doors being opened for gay men to adopt children, because

656
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 5: there are still some states that have bands against that,

657
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 5: but those dominoes are also starting to fall.

658
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 6: Great and there's people out there doing their parts to

659
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 6: combat those misconceptions. Brian Tessier started up for one one

660
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 6: four Dad, a hotline for prospective single fathers, and Tessier

661
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 6: was talking about how both gay and straight guys reach

662
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 6: out to him a lot about.

663
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: The topic, and many believe that they can't adopt on

664
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: their own. Many think that it's not even.

665
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 6: Possible that legally you have to have some type of

666
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 6: partner going into it with you.

667
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it was interesting when ABC News was reporting

668
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 5: on this, they talked to some agency professionals who said

669
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 5: that if a child has been in, say an abusive

670
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 5: situation with his or her biological mother or has special needs,

671
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 5: that a single dad in particular can be a really

672
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 5: stabilizing factor. I mean, I think a lot of times

673
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 5: we hear about stories about how difficult it is for

674
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 5: men to adopt, particularly now actually straight men, because they

675
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 5: kind of get like a side day of like, well,

676
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 5: why would you want to adopt a child on your own?

677
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 5: But they can actually be attractive candidates, you know, for kids.

678
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 6: Right, And they pointed out another advantage of single adoptive dads,

679
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 6: and that is that many adopt older boys, which is

680
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 6: a group that's historically and difficult to place in homes

681
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 6: for adoption.

682
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 5: And speaking of adoption of having kids in the same

683
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 5: way as there are trade offs anytime you become a parent,

684
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 5: no matter what your family structure looks like. Same goes

685
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 5: for single dads. Right when you're looking at the financial aspects.

686
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 5: For instance, women tend to struggle after a divorce with

687
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 5: making ends meet.

688
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: That's their main financial struggle.

689
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 6: But for men after a divorce who gain custody of

690
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 6: the kids, it's their careers that can end up kind

691
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 6: of a mess if you look at it from one

692
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 6: perspective or simply different. I mean, it makes sense that

693
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 6: you've got to sacrifice something. And with this change in

694
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 6: society that we're seeing out of more men becoming single dads,

695
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 6: we're also and they're also going to have to get

696
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 6: used to the fact that maybe your career path has

697
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 6: to change, a lot of women have changed their career paths,

698
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 6: you know, from motherhood before.

699
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, talking about the quote unquote mommy off ramp that

700
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 5: men any women start to hit around our age, Caroline

701
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 5: of that question of like, well do I want to

702
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 5: have a kid? Do I want to have you know,

703
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 5: keep blazing forward with my career? Can I do both?

704
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 5: How can I make that happen? That kind of lean in.

705
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: Sort of stuff.

706
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 5: And it was kind of funny, not funny, but a

707
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 5: little chuckle worthy when I read an anecdote from one

708
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 5: of these single dads talking about how frustrating it is

709
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 5: for him when he has to leave work to take

710
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 5: care of his kids. Sometimes he gets the stink eye

711
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 5: from his coworkers because they think, oh, well, shouldn't a

712
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 5: mom be doing that? And it's simply though the same

713
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 5: kinds of issues that working moms have been dealing with

714
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 5: since moms began working. Right. Yeah, there was a two

715
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 5: thousand and eight story that CNN Money did and they

716
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 5: talked to this guy named Dave King who got custody

717
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 5: of his kids, four of them, and had to leave

718
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 5: the job that basically had him on a direct career

719
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 5: path to earning five hundred thousand a year. Was it podcasting, Yeah,

720
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 5: That'spilo podcasting.

721
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: And he, you know, he's like, I love my kids

722
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: more than anything. I'm you know, I want to make

723
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: them happy.

724
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 6: But he said, I have to fight my own anger

725
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 6: and frustration when I think about the opportunities I.

726
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: Had that were lost because they were palpable.

727
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 5: He saw it right there in his future, and then

728
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 5: he had to move and give it up to like

729
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 5: have custody of his kids.

730
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: And all I could think was think, think of all

731
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: the women.

732
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the only bone that I have to pick

733
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 5: with one of two bones.

734
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: We'll get to the second bone and a second. This

735
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: bone that I.

736
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,479
Speaker 5: Have to pick with these kinds of stories is that

737
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 5: it's this novel idea of making some kind of financial

738
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 5: sacrifice for having kids.

739
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: It's as though this decision has never.

740
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 5: Had to be made by like, oh, I don't know,

741
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 5: like fifty one percent of the population.

742
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: But also though one note on him, it wasn't just.

743
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 5: The issue of taking a job that you know, didn't

744
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 5: pay him half a million dollars in podcast royalties, but

745
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 5: that the divorce and custody battle that ensued also costs

746
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 5: around a quarter of a million dollars. Like we said earlier,

747
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 5: that you know, the it's not always a simple easy

748
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 5: cakewalk to working out these kinds of custody issues and

749
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 5: becoming a single dad. It can also cost a pretty

750
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 5: penny on top of you know, having to like clothe

751
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 5: and feed them and all that.

752
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 6: And then you look at the stats that when two

753
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 6: parents divorce and the dad gets custody, it's not nearly

754
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 6: as common for the ex wife to have to pay

755
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 6: any sort of child support to the dad, whereas you know,

756
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 6: it's very typical for the dad to have to pay

757
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 6: for the mom.

758
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely still a lot of imbalance

759
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 5: in the legal system in terms of how that works out.

760
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 5: There's also some imbalance too, it seems like when it

761
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 5: comes to dating and remarriage after becoming a single dad.

762
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 5: It seems like from our Mom's episode, a lot of

763
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 5: women who are single moms remain single. I mean, probably

764
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 5: half the reason why is because they don't even have

765
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 5: time to date. But it seems like single dads and

766
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 5: I don't want to say, have an easier time of it,

767
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 5: but are likelier to seek it out.

768
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that.

769
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 6: Goes back to the whole I feel like we've talked

770
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 6: about this in different ways on the podcast, but you know,

771
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 6: even when you're talking about marriage or whatever, that men

772
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 6: are much more uncomfortable with being on their own, whereas

773
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 6: a woman, you know, if she if her husband dies,

774
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 6: for instance, like she's more likely to turn to her

775
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 6: support group of friends and be okay, and so she's

776
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 6: maybe not as eager to get back out there and

777
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 6: get another partner, whereas a man who is widowed is

778
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 6: more likely to go out in search of a partner

779
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 6: rather than friends, right, Or to put it another way,

780
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 6: Arman Brod, who's the author of The Single Father, A

781
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 6: Dad's Guide to Parenting without a Partner, says that single

782
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 6: fathers have a tendency, more so than single moms, to

783
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 6: feel incomplete without a partner in the house, so they

784
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 6: risk rushing into a new relationship that may.

785
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: Not be right well.

786
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 5: And one interesting survey finding related to that is that

787
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 5: when single dads do date, they seem to prefer dating

788
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 5: women who also have children because there's that assumption that, well,

789
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,479
Speaker 5: they're going to be a little more understanding of their

790
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 5: fatherly commitments that they might have to make, and.

791
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 1: Also probably gets over the hurdle of telling a woman

792
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: you're on a date with it. Oh, by the way,

793
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: I have kids. Probably makes that a little bit easier

794
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: if she can.

795
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 5: Also respond or he can respond, oh, yeah, I also

796
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 5: have children, because that is especially now that we.

797
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: Are, you know, of this age that we are at, Caroline.

798
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 5: It's you know, if we were both like out in

799
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 5: the dating pool, it would not be a wild notion

800
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 5: for us to end up on a date with someone

801
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 5: who is divorced and or has.

802
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: Children, right.

803
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, And there were there were some advice columns out

804
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 6: there about how do you deal with that? How do

805
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 6: you either how you as a woman dat a single dad,

806
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 6: or how do you as a single dad date people

807
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 6: out there because a lot of times there was one

808
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 6: column I read where the woman was just like, you know,

809
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 6: I couldn't handle it because there was a part of

810
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 6: me that realized that his kid was always going to

811
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 6: be his number one priority, and so that is something

812
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 6: that also has to be considered well.

813
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 5: And speaking of single dads and dating, I mentioned Luis

814
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 5: c K earlier in the podcast. I mean, he has

815
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 5: an entire show pretty much about dating as a single dad,

816
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 5: and it's not just about dating. But he came to

817
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 5: mind with all of this research, not just because he's

818
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 5: hilarious and I'm a huge LUISYK fan and he is

819
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 5: a single dad of two adorable daughters, but he jumped

820
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 5: out in my mind in terms of you know, we

821
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 5: talked a lot about the perception of single dads and

822
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 5: reading these trend pieces on single dads, and particularly single

823
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 5: dads by choice, they are treated so much differently in

824
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 5: a lot of ways than single moms are because for

825
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 5: someone like Luis c K, like, we love him because

826
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 5: he is hilarious and is very insightful, et cetera, et cetera.

827
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 5: But I think we also love him too because we portice.

828
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 5: And I'm just saying like, we like, culturally really gravitate

829
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 5: to this idea of you know, the sacrificial single dad.

830
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: Who is you know, doing it on his own.

831
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 5: Whereas it seems like when we talk about single moms,

832
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 5: and maybe it's just because there's such an awful historical

833
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 5: legacy of single moms being thrown under the bus, but

834
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 5: I feel like even today, single moms.

835
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: Get a bit of a short end of the stick.

836
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 5: Right.

837
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 6: In one of the New York Times pieces we read,

838
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 6: the main picture with the story is of a man

839
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 6: in a nice suit in his office with a playpen

840
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 6: next to him, and there's choice.

841
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: On his desk, and he is awesome. That's great, He's

842
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 1: so great.

843
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 6: But think about the side eye that a woman in

844
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 6: the same position would get. A woman coming to work

845
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 6: and having.

846
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 5: A playpen there with toys and a baby, like obviously

847
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 5: she's not dedicated to her job or whatever, Whereas it

848
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 5: seems like that the social perception is that a man

849
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 5: who has a playpen in his office is so dedicated. Yeah,

850
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 5: And there's also that whole selfishness perception of single moms

851
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 5: by choice, where they're often painted as you know, just

852
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 5: like I don't know, being almost like narcissists for their decisions,

853
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 5: whereas we think it's like really cool and not to

854
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 5: say that invested single dads aren't laudable and really cool.

855
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 5: I'm just saying I wish that we could a cultural

856
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 5: conversation about single moms could be elevated in a similar

857
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 5: way to single dads, because yes, we need to encourage

858
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 5: men to be active and involved fathers. Study after study

859
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 5: shows that that makes such a huge positive difference in kids' lives.

860
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: But I just wonder.

861
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 5: Why we tend to will hold more esteem it seems

862
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 5: for single dads and single moms.

863
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 6: Well, I think that goes back to just cultural expectations.

864
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 5: I wonder if it also goes back to Kramer Versus Kramer,

865
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 5: the nineteen seventy three drama starring Dustin Hoffman about how

866
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 5: he you know, ends Meryl Streep, his wife ends up

867
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 5: believing he has the kid alone. It's this whole journey

868
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 5: of him learning how to be a father. And I

869
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 5: mean it's really good and it's very poignant and all

870
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 5: of that, but Meryl Streep is painted as this awful, selfish,

871
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 5: deadbeat mom, and in a way, she kind of is

872
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 5: because she abandons her family. Yes, but I feel like

873
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 5: we still have that Kramer versus Kramer, like Dustin Hoffman,

874
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 5: like running through the rainy streets of New York to

875
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 5: get his son kind of ideal of the single dad yeah,

876
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 5: which again it's not bad, but it's like, why are

877
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 5: they heroes and single moms aren't heroines?

878
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think you nailed it on the

879
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 6: talking about just like the cultural legacy, the cultural nastiness

880
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 6: with which women were single moms have always been treated

881
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 6: and single.

882
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: Dads are so by comparison, rare.

883
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 6: But with this trend, with this rise in single fathers,

884
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 6: I really think we're going to see a shift. I mean,

885
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 6: if we're already seeing it with people getting mad about

886
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 6: diaper advertisements, I think that there is some real movement here.

887
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 6: Not that I want to talk about movement and diapers

888
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 6: in the same sentence, but I mean, I think that

889
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 6: as things become more normal like this, it's going to

890
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 6: be less like every single single dad is a hero

891
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 6: and every single single mom is you know, somebody.

892
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 1: To be pitied. I think there.

893
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 6: I think we're going to see over the next maybe

894
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 6: I'll be dead, but over the course of several generations,

895
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 6: we're going to see like more acceptance of just people

896
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 6: being people.

897
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

898
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 5: I mean, again, the most striking difference between researching for

899
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 5: this episode and researching for the single moms. That so

900
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 5: is that the legacy of the unw mother goes so

901
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 5: far back in time, and for this one, we had

902
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 5: to do some digging and right on back to nineteen

903
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 5: seventy two. I mean there's some stuff before that, but

904
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 5: it's mostly like just the panic of even the idea

905
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 5: of men raising kids. So Happy Father's Day, though, happy

906
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 5: related Father's Day to all the single and not single

907
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 5: dads out there. We're very much pro single fathers, and yeah,

908
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to seeing how this trend continues to develop.

909
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 5: But now single dads and folks who are being raised

910
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 5: or have been raised by single dads, we especially want

911
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 5: to hear from you on this topic.

912
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at houstuffworks.

913
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 5: Dot com is our new email address, or you can

914
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 5: also tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast or send us

915
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 5: a message over on Facebook. And we've got a couple

916
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 5: messages to share with you right now. So I've got

917
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 5: a letter here from Brenda in response to our episode.

918
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 1: The Widowhood Effect.

919
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 5: She writes, in two thousand and eight, I lost my

920
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 5: husband Kevin to a rare cancer.

921
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: I was twenty four and he was thirty six.

922
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 5: It was devastating and I felt completely alone and abandoned.

923
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 5: We had been married only a year and a half

924
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 5: and had gone through so much together, a long distance

925
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 5: relationship with me in Pennsylvania and him in Manitoba, US immigration,

926
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 5: financial woes, and just when we were getting on our feet,

927
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 5: the cancer hit. It was all so very fast, and

928
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 5: I felt like an outcast.

929
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: I knew no young widows. They were all my grandmother's age.

930
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 5: This past March, I released my first book titled EBB

931
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 5: from the Shoreline, Finding Cancer and Courage, about our love

932
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 5: and cancer story. I want others impacted by cancer and

933
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 5: caregivers to find hope in these big.

934
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: Struggles of life.

935
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 5: There's also one organization in particular that has helped me

936
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 5: immensely in my loss, Soaring Spirits International, which host Camp Widow.

937
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 5: I've spoken at several of their camps on blogging through grief,

938
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 5: traveling alone, and also offer writing intensives.

939
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: Connecting with widows in person.

940
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 5: At their camps has been crucial in my healing process,

941
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 5: so I just wanted to share that information for any

942
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 5: widows that might be listening.

943
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: Again. That's called Soaring Spirits International.

944
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 5: Which hosts Camp Widow. And thanks so much for writing

945
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 5: Brenda Well I.

946
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 6: Have a letter here from Emily that's actually responding to

947
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 6: a couple of different episodes we did.

948
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: She said, I.

949
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 6: Had to take a moment from drawing backgrounds for Animation

950
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 6: to send us email. It seems crazy how relevant some

951
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 6: of your recent podcasts have been in my life. I

952
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 6: used to work as a game tester for Disney Interactive.

953
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 6: While I was there, the girls on the floor were

954
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 6: very small in numbers, but all of the higher up

955
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 6: jobs were held by strong, amazing women. I had the

956
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 6: pleasure of meeting one of Disney Animation's legends, Floyd Norman.

957
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 6: He was one of the first black artists to work

958
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 6: in Disney.

959
00:50:58,200 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: He knew Walt Disney.

960
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 6: Personally, and I heard stories from him and honestly made

961
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 6: me rethink Walt Disney being racist or sexist. I feel

962
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 6: nerd ashamed for not being aware of any of the

963
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,720
Speaker 6: other women at Disney you name.

964
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: Besides Mary Blair.

965
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 6: I work at a small animation studio right now and

966
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 6: do comic book work on the side. I'm not a

967
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 6: member of the union, so that could account for low numbers.

968
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 6: I've never really taken my gender into consideration.

969
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: I just do what I love. When it comes to

970
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: the job of animation.

971
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 6: It seems most of the time jobs get called animation,

972
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 6: whether they're actually more.

973
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: Like background art or storyboarding.

974
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 6: Also, when I was at Cartoon Network, my producer was

975
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 6: a woman and went on to basically run the studio

976
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 6: that makes Robot Chicken. So there's a plus for women

977
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 6: in animation. With my comic work, personally, I've never experienced sexism.

978
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 5: In fact, I've got nothing but respect. I'm sure that's

979
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 5: not always the case. For one thing, I never dress

980
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 5: up in cosplay personally, I see it as unprofessional for

981
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 5: an artist to do. So I thought I might recommend

982
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 5: a few very feminist friendly comics.

983
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: To name a few off the top.

984
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 6: Of my head, Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore, Saga

985
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 6: by Brian kay Vaughn, pretty much Anything by Greg Recca,

986
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 6: and Well Sandmanned by Neil Game.

987
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 5: And of course, so thank you so much, Emily. It's

988
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 5: incredible how much your life is falling.

989
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: Into line with our podcast.

990
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 5: Yes, sounds like we are psychically podcastically connected, and to

991
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 5: get podcastically connected with us, so you can find all

992
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 5: of our social media links, all of our blog posts, videos,

993
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 5: and all five hundred plus podcast episodes over at stuff

994
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 5: mom Never told You dot com. For more on this

995
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 5: and thousands of other topics, visit houstuffworks dot com.