WEBVTT - Americana Music Live with Drew Holcomb and Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.956 Pushkin. Back in the spring, I was part of a 0:00:21.996 --> 0:00:25.436 traveling variety show called No Small Endeavor. It's put on 0:00:25.476 --> 0:00:27.996 by a friend of mine, a theologian from Nashville named 0:00:28.036 --> 0:00:30.156 Lee Camp. A bunch of us got in a big 0:00:30.196 --> 0:00:34.876 tour bus left Nashville for Louisville, then Indianapolis, then Grand Rapids. 0:00:35.476 --> 0:00:37.396 Lee and I told a story about the famous showdown 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:40.076 between the suffragettes and the anti slavery movement in the 0:00:40.116 --> 0:00:43.516 mid nineteenth century, and then a bunch of musicians played 0:00:43.556 --> 0:00:45.916 music to help us tell a story. It was one 0:00:45.956 --> 0:00:48.996 of the most fun things I've ever done in my life. Anyway, 0:00:49.316 --> 0:00:51.596 when you're traveling on a tour bus, you spend a 0:00:51.596 --> 0:00:53.476 lot of time talking to everyone else on the tour 0:00:53.516 --> 0:00:55.596 bus and along the way. I got to know the 0:00:55.676 --> 0:00:59.716 musical headliner on the show, the singer songwriter Drew Holcombe, 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:04.236 and I found him so thoughtful and fantastic and full 0:01:04.276 --> 0:01:06.476 of life that I invited him to come to New 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:08.876 York and sit down with me at eight twenty fours 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:12.796 in reopened Cherry Lane Theater. And to my delight and 0:01:12.836 --> 0:01:16.716 I hope your delight as well, he said yes. Drew 0:01:16.796 --> 0:01:19.756 is in his early forties, Beard lives in Nashville, but 0:01:19.756 --> 0:01:22.516 he's from Memphis. He's maybe a country artist, although he 0:01:22.516 --> 0:01:25.516 would dispute that description. His band is called the Neighbors 0:01:25.556 --> 0:01:28.156 and they've been together forever. And if you've never heard 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:30.196 his music, you're going to hear more than a little 0:01:30.196 --> 0:01:32.716 bit on this episode. Because I gave him only one 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:35.876 rule before we had our conversation. You have to bring 0:01:35.916 --> 0:01:38.716 your guitar and it can never leave your side. 0:01:39.236 --> 0:01:42.116 Here we go, all right, all right, welcome everybody to 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:43.156 the Cherry Lane Theater. 0:01:46.236 --> 0:01:47.316 It's gonna be a great evening. 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:52.876 I want you guys to welcome Malcolm Gladwell and Drew Holcomb. 0:01:57.956 --> 0:02:01.156 Good evening. I'll get it started with a song. 0:02:03.876 --> 0:02:04.316 All right. 0:02:17.396 --> 0:02:24.876 I am fairthe well Now, I am strong, I am goodbye, 0:02:26.036 --> 0:02:31.836 long way from home. I am an orchard at the 0:02:31.876 --> 0:02:38.156 start of spring. I am a mocking bird. I love 0:02:38.356 --> 0:02:39.316 to you singing. 0:02:39.516 --> 0:02:39.596 Now. 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:46.396 I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna fly. 0:02:58.596 --> 0:03:04.836 I am an old road walking on my feet. I 0:03:04.876 --> 0:03:11.956 am laughing me weeping willow tree. I'm a dog barkain 0:03:12.596 --> 0:03:18.556 a honey bee steam. I ain't annoying you, bude. I've 0:03:19.076 --> 0:03:27.676 got my wings. I'm gonna fly. I'm going to fly. 0:03:38.716 --> 0:03:51.836 I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna fly. 0:03:56.796 --> 0:04:12.356 I'm going to fly. I am moving, I. 0:04:12.196 --> 0:04:20.316 Am flashing bones, I am a gunshot with my microphone. 0:04:21.116 --> 0:04:22.596 I'm a boy at. 0:04:22.596 --> 0:04:28.476 The window as the summer sun sets, an old man 0:04:28.516 --> 0:04:32.596 in winter, nothing more, nothing less, And. 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:45.436 I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna fly, I'm gonna fly. 0:05:07.436 --> 0:05:09.796 Tell me why you chose that to start with? 0:05:10.796 --> 0:05:12.716 Well, that's my favorite one I've ever written. I just 0:05:12.716 --> 0:05:14.676 figure when I get nervous, just play something you like. 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:18.676 You know, when when did you write that song? 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:26.076 I wrote that song probably January of twenty twenty two. 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:29.676 I always tend to write a lot of songs right around, 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:34.356 mainly after New Year's It's a good time to kind 0:05:34.356 --> 0:05:37.756 of get in your feelings and introspection about your life, 0:05:37.956 --> 0:05:40.476 about the world around you, and it tends to be 0:05:40.476 --> 0:05:41.876 a creative season for me. 0:05:43.436 --> 0:05:45.876 How do you decide you say that's the favorite your 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:47.076 favorite song you've ever written? 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:48.036 Probably? 0:05:48.356 --> 0:05:51.236 Yeah, Why what is it about that song? Though? Well? 0:05:51.316 --> 0:05:55.076 It was it was something about the song kind of 0:05:55.076 --> 0:05:59.996 came out of this. I just turned forty around that time, 0:06:00.276 --> 0:06:03.676 and I actually enjoyed all the way things that I 0:06:03.676 --> 0:06:05.676 felt after turning forty. Everybody told me I should be 0:06:05.716 --> 0:06:07.716 afraid of them, but I actually really enjoyed them. Also, 0:06:07.836 --> 0:06:09.556 was kind of born in old soul. My mom said, 0:06:09.596 --> 0:06:12.476 I was born an old man. I felt comfortable in 0:06:12.516 --> 0:06:16.196 that transition already, just because of sort of how I am. 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:21.156 I started writing a song with the lyric started I'm 0:06:21.156 --> 0:06:23.356 a boy at the window as the summer sunsets. I 0:06:23.356 --> 0:06:26.716 have this keen memory for my childhood of being told 0:06:26.716 --> 0:06:29.116 to go to bed before the sun went down in 0:06:29.156 --> 0:06:31.436 the summertime, you know, and staring at the window and 0:06:31.436 --> 0:06:33.996 seeing my neighbor whose parents let him stay up, and 0:06:35.396 --> 0:06:37.836 being sort of full of jealousy but also sort of 0:06:37.876 --> 0:06:42.516 full of wonder. And then also, even though I'm not old, 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:46.036 I feel certain I feel old in certain ways, and 0:06:46.076 --> 0:06:47.996 I sort of this song is kind of in the tension, 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:51.356 is me just sort of embracing the tension of that, 0:06:51.556 --> 0:06:54.636 And that tension feels more and more what I see 0:06:54.636 --> 0:06:55.876 when I look in the mirror. And so when I'll 0:06:55.916 --> 0:06:59.076 play that song, I feel it's like a blanket for me, 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:02.876 you know. And I also finally let myself admit that 0:07:02.916 --> 0:07:06.556 I like my own music. You're not supposed to do that, 0:07:06.596 --> 0:07:08.116 But I do like my own music. 0:07:10.076 --> 0:07:11.236 Why you're not supposed to do that. 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:14.716 It's just a you know, cultural thing you shouldn't. You know, 0:07:14.996 --> 0:07:16.876 if you drive down the street and see an artist 0:07:16.916 --> 0:07:19.116 listening to their own music, you might think, man, what 0:07:19.196 --> 0:07:22.956 an arrogant guy. But which that happens to me with 0:07:22.996 --> 0:07:24.836 my kids sometimes because they want to hear my songs. 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:28.276 I just look at people, you know, hey, yep to 0:07:28.316 --> 0:07:29.316 me listening to my own song. 0:07:30.876 --> 0:07:33.636 Yeah, how would you describe the genre that that song 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:34.076 belongs to? 0:07:35.436 --> 0:07:38.676 You know, I growing up, I was the music that 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:40.796 I listened to a lot sort of fit in either 0:07:40.836 --> 0:07:44.636 categories of folk or rock and roll, some country, soul, 0:07:46.836 --> 0:07:49.476 folk rock was sort of how I framed it before 0:07:49.516 --> 0:07:52.556 this sort of ubiquitous word of Americana kind of came around, 0:07:53.036 --> 0:07:58.276 and it felt like they created a sort of a 0:07:58.276 --> 0:08:03.236 an institutional home for artists like myself who are definitely 0:08:03.236 --> 0:08:07.076 not country in the sort of commercial sense, and we're 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:10.996 not rock in the sort of new radio sense, and 0:08:10.996 --> 0:08:14.516 we were a bit homeless. There's a lot of us, 0:08:14.516 --> 0:08:16.156 and so it kind of created this. So that's what 0:08:16.196 --> 0:08:20.796 I say now is Americana. But one of the great 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:23.076 things about being in a you know, quote unquote Americana 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:25.076 artist is there's not really a lot of rules about 0:08:26.116 --> 0:08:28.276 what you make, how you make whether the song has 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:33.236 five stanzas and no chorus or you know, horns or whatever. 0:08:33.276 --> 0:08:34.676 You can kind of do whatever you want. It just 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:36.996 has to be sort of made by real people in 0:08:37.036 --> 0:08:38.636 a you know, in a real sense. 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:42.676 You're you're from Tennessee and you live in Nashville, but 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:46.756 you you take great pains to distance yourself from country music. 0:08:48.716 --> 0:08:51.956 Well it all started. I'm from Memphis, which is, you know, 0:08:52.116 --> 0:08:55.356 two hundred miles west and a bit south of Nashville, 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:59.396 and we were raised Memphians are sort of it's it's 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:04.556 baked into your childhood and you're up bringing to hate Nashville. Yeah, 0:09:04.676 --> 0:09:08.756 it's it's part of how you're raised. For instance, I 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:12.116 my parents, every fall we would drive to Knoxville, where 0:09:12.116 --> 0:09:15.396 they attended school, and we'd go to a Tennessee football game. 0:09:15.796 --> 0:09:17.636 And that's a three hundred and eighty seven mile drive. 0:09:18.196 --> 0:09:20.716 So in eighteen years, let's say we did it. I 0:09:20.756 --> 0:09:23.996 don't know, maybe sixteen times in my childhood that I 0:09:24.356 --> 0:09:28.556 that I can recall, and so thirty two times through 0:09:28.636 --> 0:09:34.076 Nashville we stopped zero times and I forty goes right 0:09:34.116 --> 0:09:36.676 through the middle of town, and my dad would just say, 0:09:36.916 --> 0:09:42.076 there's a state capital, keep bomb moving. So we grew 0:09:42.156 --> 0:09:48.396 up admiring. You know, there was some country that sort 0:09:48.436 --> 0:09:52.396 of leaked into my childhood. I think there's perceptions of 0:09:52.436 --> 0:09:53.916 folks outside of the South that like, everybody in the 0:09:53.916 --> 0:09:58.076 South just listen to country music. We listened to motown 0:09:58.236 --> 0:10:00.876 and Bob Dylan and Amy Grant, you know, like it 0:10:00.916 --> 0:10:05.276 was this interesting mix of like gospel music and you know, 0:10:06.556 --> 0:10:09.836 black soul music and then all the my dad loved 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:12.836 all the sort of contemporary seventies songwriter stuff, and so 0:10:13.796 --> 0:10:16.236 there was not a lot of country music in it. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:16.236 --> 0:10:17.036 in my childhood. 0:10:17.236 --> 0:10:19.396 I want to talk a little bit more about Memphis and 0:10:19.476 --> 0:10:22.356 Nashville in your mind. What is the difference between Memphis 0:10:22.396 --> 0:10:22.996 and Nashville. 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:26.756 Well, practically speaking, I mean, Memphis is a very it's 0:10:26.796 --> 0:10:29.316 a hometown city, meaning that most of the people that 0:10:29.396 --> 0:10:31.756 live there grew up there. I had family from there, 0:10:31.836 --> 0:10:35.196 grew up in the surrounding, you know, one hundred mile radius, 0:10:35.596 --> 0:10:38.556 whereas Nashville attracts people from all over the country, especially 0:10:38.556 --> 0:10:41.036 in the last fifteen to twenty years, and so it's 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:45.796 a much sort of work. Those two realities create different, 0:10:45.876 --> 0:10:50.476 very different cultures. In Memphis, everybody knows each other and 0:10:50.916 --> 0:10:52.156 you know, where'd you go to school and who do 0:10:52.156 --> 0:10:55.156 you know. It's a bit of that small town, big 0:10:55.196 --> 0:10:59.836 city experience, whereas in Nashville, so many young people move 0:10:59.916 --> 0:11:02.476 there because of what the city can offer them, the 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:06.516 opportunities that may springboard out of living there. And then 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:09.836 it's a center for I mean the big employers in 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:13.116 Nashville or the music business and healthcare, which are both 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:17.116 sort of booming and transient jobs, Whereas Memphis it's you know, 0:11:17.196 --> 0:11:20.396 these big blue collar companies like FedEx and AutoZone, and 0:11:20.436 --> 0:11:24.116 so just creates very different cultures. And then you know, racially, 0:11:24.156 --> 0:11:28.396 Memphis is majority African American town. Nashal is very lily white, 0:11:28.676 --> 0:11:31.876 you know, so they're just they're they're very different. My 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:34.436 favorite story to tell about about Nashville and I moved there, 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:37.916 was Memphis is a great food town, especially cheap food, 0:11:38.076 --> 0:11:42.756 you know, Tamali's and barbecue and great unique pizza, and 0:11:43.196 --> 0:11:45.676 it's just a very you know, being a river town, 0:11:45.676 --> 0:11:48.996 there's a lot of transients over decades, so you get 0:11:49.036 --> 0:11:52.796 a lot of unique food, and Nashville had basically nothing 0:11:52.796 --> 0:11:55.596 that I that I wanted to eat, and I would 0:11:55.596 --> 0:11:57.596 just complain to my wife. I was like, that's nice here. 0:11:57.996 --> 0:11:59.716 I know you're from here and that's why I moved here, 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:03.436 but there's nothing to eat here that I want to eat. 0:12:03.756 --> 0:12:06.276 And then fast forward almost twenty years and it's one 0:12:06.316 --> 0:12:08.996 of the greatest food towns you know, in the country. 0:12:09.116 --> 0:12:12.516 Everything's there now, so it's it's changing. It's it's a 0:12:12.636 --> 0:12:14.916 very sort of get evolving and fluid place. 0:12:15.476 --> 0:12:21.156 Maybe you can explain my favorite joke. It's my favorite 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:23.516 joke because I I feel it has many, many layers, 0:12:23.756 --> 0:12:27.356 many of which I don't understand. It's a joke from 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:32.876 the Civil Rights Movement era. Black man in Detroit wakes 0:12:32.956 --> 0:12:34.516 up in the middle of the night, it's one of 0:12:34.556 --> 0:12:35.956 those people who come off from the South, you know, 0:12:35.996 --> 0:12:38.396 and then turns to his wife and said, I had 0:12:38.436 --> 0:12:42.356 a terrible dream, and she said, what happened? He said, 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:45.276 I dreamt that Jesus came to me and told me 0:12:45.276 --> 0:12:49.196 to go to Birmingham. And she says, did Jesus say 0:12:49.236 --> 0:12:52.316 go with you? He says, Jesus said, he go as 0:12:52.316 --> 0:12:53.076 far as Memphis. 0:12:55.756 --> 0:12:58.476 That's a great joke, isn't it that? 0:12:58.636 --> 0:13:01.836 It's my favorite joke of all time. It is, like 0:13:01.876 --> 0:13:05.916 I said, because it's a joke about Jesus who said 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:08.556 he would be with us always, but not in Birmingham, 0:13:08.676 --> 0:13:12.396 not Burmiam. Yeah, it's a joke about Birmingham. 0:13:12.716 --> 0:13:15.516 Like, it's definitely a joke at the expression Birmingham, dark, 0:13:15.636 --> 0:13:16.116 dark joker. 0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:18.716 But like, why did Jesus stop at Memphis? 0:13:19.156 --> 0:13:22.876 Well, because, I mean, Jesus would love Memphis. There's there's 0:13:22.956 --> 0:13:27.316 great food, there's great hospitality, there's great music, Like Jesus 0:13:27.356 --> 0:13:31.996 would thrive there. Yeah, that was my experience. Jesus thrived 0:13:31.996 --> 0:13:32.596 in Memphis. 0:13:34.836 --> 0:13:36.556 You listened, Well, I want to go back to that 0:13:36.596 --> 0:13:39.196 mixture of things you would listening to as a kid, Motown, 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:40.996 Amy Grant, What was the third one? 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:42.156 Bob Dylan. 0:13:42.356 --> 0:13:46.636 That's a fantastic and unusual mix of things to be 0:13:46.676 --> 0:13:49.196 exposed to. This is is this your father or your 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:50.836 mother's doing? Let's put both both. 0:13:50.996 --> 0:13:55.116 Yeah, So my dad grew up in the and you know, 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:58.836 my parents met in the third grade, and so they 0:13:59.436 --> 0:14:02.076 they grew up seven or eight like blocks from each other. 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:04.356 So there's this very sort of I one of twenty 0:14:04.356 --> 0:14:06.916 eight grandkids. It's like a very yeah, there's a lot 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:10.916 going on there. That's just on my mom's side. That 0:14:10.916 --> 0:14:12.356 didn't include my dad's side. 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:15.316 So wait, there's twenty eight grand kids on your bomb's. 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:17.916 Side, that's right. Yeah, and I remember fourteen or fifteen, 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:19.876 I can't remember, but yeah, yeah. 0:14:20.396 --> 0:14:20.556 So. 0:14:22.156 --> 0:14:22.556 Very like. 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.516 It'd be hard to overstate how sort of like central 0:14:27.236 --> 0:14:31.796 Christianity and religion was to my upbringing. Part of that 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:34.396 was that when I was apparently when I was like 0:14:35.516 --> 0:14:37.156 I don't even know how old, three, four or five 0:14:37.196 --> 0:14:40.716 years old, someone from the church came to my parents' 0:14:40.716 --> 0:14:43.116 house and they were everybody in their church was doing 0:14:43.156 --> 0:14:46.076 like a record clean out of things in their house 0:14:46.116 --> 0:14:48.276 that weren't honoring to God, and so they would get 0:14:48.356 --> 0:14:51.476 rid of all these records that when I heard about 0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:53.596 this in high school, I wept. I was like, oh, Dad, 0:14:53.596 --> 0:14:57.076 you had all of these great records and original copies 0:14:57.716 --> 0:14:59.516 that they managed there out because it was the Devil's 0:14:59.556 --> 0:15:03.636 music that was really too bad. You know, a lot 0:15:03.636 --> 0:15:05.636 of led Zeppelin got thrown out and things like that. 0:15:05.836 --> 0:15:07.636 You know, I mean, come on, yeah, gotta get rid 0:15:07.676 --> 0:15:11.196 of it, which we could. We'll come back to this. 0:15:11.236 --> 0:15:14.316 But my first record I ever bought was Pearl Jams ten. 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:15.956 I was eleven year I actually got it for Christmas 0:15:16.556 --> 0:15:22.156 from Santa Claus and my dad broke the record by 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:24.756 five pm on Christmas Day because we had to go 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:27.276 through the liner notes together and there's drug references and 0:15:27.356 --> 0:15:29.276 he's like, you're too young for this and break. So 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:33.116 this was you know, an intense, an intense scene. But 0:15:33.116 --> 0:15:34.996 that some of the things that made it through the 0:15:35.316 --> 0:15:38.996 gauntlet was Bob Dylan's evangelical records of course, you know, 0:15:39.236 --> 0:15:43.756 slow Train Coming Saved and there's another one. And then 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:46.596 because he still made it in there somehow his old 0:15:46.636 --> 0:15:51.556 records also got a pass. Ye got grandfather in Yeah, 0:15:52.076 --> 0:15:54.196 and he was Jewish, so there's like a thing there too, 0:15:54.476 --> 0:15:58.356 you know, you're allowed to have records made by Jewish artists. 0:15:58.396 --> 0:16:04.236 So and then Motown was like it was all you 0:16:04.236 --> 0:16:07.916 could listen to Motown except for like, what's the you know, 0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:09.996 the great the market record just blinking off side of 0:16:10.156 --> 0:16:12.076 Sexual Healing of course, well yeah, yeah, but the name 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:13.076 of the record, what's going on? 0:16:13.676 --> 0:16:15.116 Oh, what's going on? Yeah? 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:17.396 Oh, sexual Healing would have been was on that record, 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:17.756 wasn't it. 0:16:18.716 --> 0:16:20.596 No, what's going on is earlier sex. I was saying, 0:16:20.636 --> 0:16:22.076 sexual really is so far beyond. 0:16:21.876 --> 0:16:23.516 Oh yeah, yeah, you can only hear that the only 0:16:23.516 --> 0:16:25.156 the only way you could hear that in my childhood 0:16:25.156 --> 0:16:28.236 was at a wedding by the by the cover band 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:30.956 you know, and and so, and it still felt awkward 0:16:31.316 --> 0:16:35.596 for everybody. But uh so, yeah there was so then 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:38.556 any Christian music was okay. Bob Dylan was okay, and 0:16:38.716 --> 0:16:40.196 motown was okay because it was just a bunch of 0:16:40.276 --> 0:16:43.076 love songs and clean oldies stuff, you know, before the 0:16:43.236 --> 0:16:46.556 music business cut. You know, Amy messed up. 0:16:46.676 --> 0:16:51.276 Can you explain to a heathen New York City audience 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:55.316 who Ammy Grant is and why she's important? Yeah? 0:16:55.356 --> 0:16:58.116 Ammy Grant was sort of I mean, the whole genre 0:16:58.196 --> 0:17:01.476 of contemporary Christian music was there was Southern gospel, which 0:17:01.516 --> 0:17:05.276 is a whole different thing. So it's basically take the 0:17:05.316 --> 0:17:08.996 songwriter model and people started applying it to their faith stories, 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:12.276 which this all predates the whole Now, the big thing 0:17:12.356 --> 0:17:15.396 is all this big ensemble worship stuff, which was basically 0:17:15.436 --> 0:17:17.916 like every all these church bands trying to sound like 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:21.596 coldplaying you two. So Amy Grant was like this young 0:17:22.036 --> 0:17:26.116 songwriter and she was. They created old radio sort of 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:29.516 format around artists like her, and she became the most 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:31.676 most famous and successful. And then she had a crossover 0:17:31.716 --> 0:17:36.276 pop hit called baby Baby that sort of sent her 0:17:36.276 --> 0:17:41.796 into regular superstardom. And yeah, she was just a very 0:17:42.476 --> 0:17:46.596 beloved woman and she's she's also as a human, she's like, 0:17:46.836 --> 0:17:49.876 she's honestly one of the greatest ones I've ever met. Yeah, 0:17:50.636 --> 0:17:52.756 I know her because my wife knew her. But I've 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:56.276 moved to Nashville again sort of like country and Christian music. 0:17:56.276 --> 0:17:58.836 This town sucks, you know, And then I got to 0:17:58.836 --> 0:18:00.476 know these people. I was like, Wow, these people are 0:18:00.476 --> 0:18:03.396 all really great. This is tough. 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:07.756 Wait what so wait what what denomination were your parents? 0:18:07.916 --> 0:18:10.716 Yeah? They they were They went like an independent Bible church. 0:18:10.956 --> 0:18:11.116 Yeah. 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:14.276 Yeah, so it was non denominational. It's very they're very 0:18:14.276 --> 0:18:14.796 proud of that. 0:18:15.076 --> 0:18:18.076 Yeah. I was asking you about other music that that 0:18:18.996 --> 0:18:21.356 made it in Yeah. 0:18:22.076 --> 0:18:29.436 I think basically my parents were pretty okay with all 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:31.476 the classics. So we would go see you know, you 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:34.156 could go see Paul Simon. They built the Pyramid in 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:36.596 Memphis when I was a kid, which was a new 0:18:36.596 --> 0:18:41.636 arena where the Memphis Tigers played, and so I got 0:18:41.676 --> 0:18:43.076 a job there in high school as a part of 0:18:43.076 --> 0:18:44.436 the event staff, and so I got to see all 0:18:44.476 --> 0:18:46.676 these concerts for free by telling people to stop smoking, 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:51.396 you know, and had my little yellow shirt on, and 0:18:51.756 --> 0:18:55.636 you know, anything from boys to men as easy top 0:18:55.796 --> 0:18:59.596 to whatever could sell fifteen thousand tickets. I was, you know, 0:19:00.116 --> 0:19:04.276 exposed to at a certain point that sort of the 0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:07.756 rules weren't really that well enforced. It was a sort 0:19:07.756 --> 0:19:09.796 of a young when we were young, was very much 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:12.716 that way. But our alarm clock every day growing up 0:19:12.796 --> 0:19:16.516 was my mom played piano and she would play hymns 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:18.076 like that was get up and go to school. It 0:19:18.076 --> 0:19:21.236 was like up from the gravey your roles, you know. 0:19:21.716 --> 0:19:23.356 She was like a whole her like whole play on 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:24.876 get up and go to school. You know. 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:27.316 But that's fantastic. 0:19:27.396 --> 0:19:30.276 Yeah, that's great. Yeah, daily it's got a great sense 0:19:30.316 --> 0:19:30.676 of humor. 0:19:30.796 --> 0:19:35.116 Yeah. I have a theory which I very grandiosely call 0:19:35.756 --> 0:19:42.036 Gladwell's theory of asymmetrical parenting, which is that at any 0:19:42.076 --> 0:19:45.596 given moment, when we account for our parental influence on 0:19:45.636 --> 0:19:50.876 our lives, we only talk about one parent. It can 0:19:51.036 --> 0:19:54.516 change over time, but you try to sound on somebody 0:19:54.556 --> 0:19:57.716 you ask somebody, Yeah, so what are your parents? People 0:19:57.716 --> 0:20:01.076 will never talk about their parents. They will the minute 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:02.596 you dig into it. They only talk about one for 0:20:02.636 --> 0:20:06.636 a while. So I would like you to give me 0:20:06.636 --> 0:20:12.356 an asymmetrical parental theory of the jew Holcomb childhood. 0:20:14.556 --> 0:20:16.716 I completely disagree with that theory. 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:21.956 I'm not saying that you only get only one mattered. 0:20:21.956 --> 0:20:24.756 I'm saying that at any given moment, only one matters. 0:20:24.916 --> 0:20:28.796 Yeah, in a particular story. 0:20:28.036 --> 0:20:31.476 Right, So it may be from you know, in high 0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:33.476 school it's only your mom, and then in college it's 0:20:33.476 --> 0:20:33.796 only you. 0:20:35.556 --> 0:20:41.756 Yeah, that's my parents are going to listen to this probably. 0:20:41.796 --> 0:20:43.276 You know, yeah, yeah, that's the whole point. 0:20:44.276 --> 0:20:46.116 Yeah. 0:20:46.556 --> 0:20:46.796 Yeah. 0:20:46.956 --> 0:20:51.876 I think we were actually talking earlier back backstage about 0:20:51.876 --> 0:20:55.796 how as as dads, you sometimes get this free pass 0:20:55.876 --> 0:20:58.876 that it's almost like, and I've seen this, I have 0:20:58.916 --> 0:21:01.996 three children that, especially with my daughter, she sort of 0:21:01.996 --> 0:21:06.276 defaults to dad, you're doing great, You're awesome, even if 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:08.476 my wife, Ellie has done all of the hard work 0:21:08.476 --> 0:21:11.596 that day the parenting space. So with that said, I 0:21:11.596 --> 0:21:13.636 think that that's probably true in a lot of ways 0:21:13.636 --> 0:21:15.436 that my dad had sort of an outside influence. 0:21:15.756 --> 0:21:17.196 What did your dad do well? 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:21.516 He was a dentist and then he hated it, so 0:21:21.556 --> 0:21:27.756 he quit and became a financial advisor. Seriously true story. 0:21:28.076 --> 0:21:32.076 This reminds me of one of my favorite stories about 0:21:32.356 --> 0:21:34.596 a friend of mine whose dad was an investment banker, 0:21:34.796 --> 0:21:40.796 and he once had a long heart to heart with 0:21:40.836 --> 0:21:43.476 his daughter and my friend about how he felt his 0:21:44.316 --> 0:21:46.876 career had been misspent and he made a series of 0:21:46.956 --> 0:21:48.996 terrible choices and he had squattered his life in a 0:21:48.996 --> 0:21:51.636 profession with no meaning. And she was very moved by 0:21:51.636 --> 0:21:53.676 this because she didn't realize her father had this other side. 0:21:53.796 --> 0:21:55.876 And she said, Dad, so what do you think you 0:21:55.916 --> 0:21:58.916 should have been? And he says, I think I should 0:21:58.916 --> 0:22:06.516 have been a tax attorney. That's kind of like what 0:22:06.516 --> 0:22:08.556 you're hearing here is kind of like, but your dad did. 0:22:08.836 --> 0:22:12.156 Yeah, well, he he said that he was just very 0:22:12.836 --> 0:22:18.076 he was very sort of bored by the monotony of 0:22:18.156 --> 0:22:21.996 dentistry and how he's he's he's very extrovert, and he 0:22:22.076 --> 0:22:24.436 was trying to have conversations with people and they couldn't 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:25.596 because you know. 0:22:26.676 --> 0:22:28.556 Oh, he was one of those annoying dentists who's like 0:22:28.556 --> 0:22:30.396 asking you questions and you're six seventeen. 0:22:31.476 --> 0:22:33.436 Well, and I think Honestly, I think it was a 0:22:33.876 --> 0:22:36.116 It was a serious crossroads for him because he'd spent 0:22:36.156 --> 0:22:39.596 he put himself through dental school selling jewelry out of 0:22:39.596 --> 0:22:42.916 a tackle box. This is like he he worked his 0:22:43.116 --> 0:22:46.676 way really hard to get himself this you know job, 0:22:46.876 --> 0:22:50.316 and and this career. But then a decade in he 0:22:50.396 --> 0:22:54.356 realized how much he really did not enjoy it and 0:22:54.996 --> 0:22:56.356 found a way out of it. Took him. It was 0:22:56.516 --> 0:22:58.596 it wasn't like an immediate transition. He went to one 0:22:58.636 --> 0:23:00.596 day a week to doing the other thing, to two 0:23:00.636 --> 0:23:02.156 days a week doing the other thing, to half and half, 0:23:02.196 --> 0:23:05.116 and then eventually, when I was in high school, sold 0:23:05.116 --> 0:23:08.396 this practice and went the full time the other direction. 0:23:08.876 --> 0:23:11.716 He loved music and he had wanted to pursue music 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:13.036 in high school. He wanted to be in a like 0:23:13.196 --> 0:23:15.596 a in a garage band. And his dad, who was 0:23:15.636 --> 0:23:19.596 even more strict, you know than my parents' generation, basically 0:23:19.796 --> 0:23:21.956 was the cutcher here. And don't you you know he 0:23:21.996 --> 0:23:24.396 has a story, he says, he tells the story about 0:23:24.476 --> 0:23:26.956 my grandfather. They're driving in the car and my grandfather 0:23:27.076 --> 0:23:31.716 smoked cigarettes and non stop and Bill Withers lean on 0:23:31.756 --> 0:23:33.636 me was on the radio and Dad was like fourteen 0:23:33.716 --> 0:23:36.236 years old in the passenger seat, and it's that part 0:23:36.276 --> 0:23:39.236