Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and I heard radio it's the big take.
Speaker 1: I'm West Kosova today. Why are the US and its
Speaker 1: western allies seizing the super yachts of Russian billionaires? Tonight?
Speaker 1: The UK seizing a nearly fifty million dollars super yacht
Speaker 1: owned by a Russian businessman tied to Putin. Authorities in
Speaker 1: Fiji seized a three hundred million dollar yacht owned by
Speaker 1: Russian oligarch Suliman Caramel. Italian authorities seized five hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy eight million dollar mega yacht. It's the size of
Speaker 1: two football fields and the word's largest super yot has
Speaker 1: been stopped from sailing after Germany officially confiscated the asset
Speaker 1: of Russian oligarch Alassmanov. The super yot was seized as
Speaker 1: part of the trenches off sanctions against Russia by the West.
Speaker 1: The one along has an estimated value of nearly six
Speaker 1: hundred million US dollars. Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February,
Speaker 1: the US and dozens of other Western governments have imposed
Speaker 1: sanctions on Russians who they accused of supporting Russian President
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin or benefiting from ties to the Kremlin. They've
Speaker 1: frozen their bank accounts, they have gone after their homes
Speaker 1: and private jets, and most dramatically, they've seized the opulent
Speaker 1: prize supriots of these billionaires. We have held the ship,
Speaker 1: which we now know belongs to Russian oligogue because we're
Speaker 1: very clear we cannot have any benefits of these oligogus
Speaker 1: with close connections to put In whilst that terrible war
Speaker 1: is going on in Ukraine and so many people will suffering.
Speaker 1: More than fifteen Russian linked yachts have been impounded because
Speaker 1: of sanctions, and most remain in legal purgatory. But now
Speaker 1: comes to the question what do you do with a
Speaker 1: confiscated yacht that's the size of a small cruise ship.
Speaker 1: To answer that question, Stephanie Baker joins me from London.
Speaker 1: She's a senior investigative reporter for Bloomberg. Stephanie, let me
Speaker 1: start by asking you the US and other Western governments
Speaker 1: are seizing these huge yachts that are allegedly owned by
Speaker 1: Russian oligarchs who are under economic sanctions. So can you
Speaker 1: tell us what exactly is a Russian oligarch and why
Speaker 1: are they being sanctioned? Okay, well, the term Russian oligarch
Speaker 1: originated actually in the nineteen nineties during the era of
Speaker 1: President Boris Yeltsen, when a group of Russian tycoons backed
Speaker 1: his bid for re election, financing his campaign. Now they
Speaker 1: got stakes and state owned companies in exchange for loans
Speaker 1: to the government which were never repaid, and they became
Speaker 1: some of the richest men in Russia. And the term
Speaker 1: grew from that that they had this undue influence over
Speaker 1: the government as a result of this political backing of
Speaker 1: the president. Now that is of course changed over the years.
Speaker 1: When President Vladimir Putin came into power, he told the
Speaker 1: oligarchs politics is over. I won't go after your businesses
Speaker 1: if you stay out of politics. So the term is
Speaker 1: somewhat troubled. I try to avoid it because it really,
Speaker 1: you know, implies that these individuals have sway over the
Speaker 1: Russian government. And now there are some that certainly do
Speaker 1: um because they run state owned enterprises. There are other
Speaker 1: very wealthy Russian businessmen who have been sanctioned who don't
Speaker 1: have that kind of relationship with the government and don't
Speaker 1: really have that kind of sway over Putin. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's arguable if any of these individuals have any sway
Speaker 1: over Putin, then why are they being sanctioned in exactly
Speaker 1: what is a sanction? When the U S sanctions a
Speaker 1: Russian businessmen, we hear about this all the time these days.
Speaker 1: What exactly is that, Well, when they're sanctioned, it usually
Speaker 1: involves asset freezes, travel bands and barring them and their
Speaker 1: companies from doing business in Western markets, so essentially makes
Speaker 1: them financial pariots. Exactly. Now, the reason behind sanctioning them,
Speaker 1: you know, President Biden said, we're going for your ill
Speaker 1: gotten gains, and the moves by Western governments are designed
Speaker 1: a as a signaling tool, a form of punishment in
Speaker 1: response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But in many of
Speaker 1: the designations by Western governments, they have pointed to the
Speaker 1: fact that many of these individuals have benefited from their
Speaker 1: relationship with the Russian state and that can take many forms.
Speaker 1: That can be the way they made their money in
Speaker 1: the early days to continuing relationships now. And the fact
Speaker 1: of the ma matter is, if you're a Russian businessman today,
Speaker 1: you are operating at the behest of Vladimir Putin. He
Speaker 1: can take away your business. You have to stay on
Speaker 1: the right side of the government or else, and that
Speaker 1: is taken as an implicit form of support from the government.
Speaker 1: So even if these executives don't have sway over Putin,
Speaker 1: they certainly have to be in line with Putin, and
Speaker 1: he has sway over them. The only way you can
Speaker 1: rise to those heights is if you don't run a
Speaker 1: file of Vladimir Putin and his plans exactly. And that's
Speaker 1: why you've seen many of these Russian billionaires who I
Speaker 1: think almost all of them are against the war, but
Speaker 1: have not come out and said specifically that they are
Speaker 1: critical of Putin's decision to invade because they know that
Speaker 1: that could threaten their empires. Does many of express criticism
Speaker 1: of the war, calling for peace and very general terms,
Speaker 1: but if stopped short of directly criticizing Putin. Now you
Speaker 1: mentioned these alleged ill gotten gains that the US and
Speaker 1: other Western countries have gone after with sanctions, and among
Speaker 1: them are these enormous yachts that many of these Russian
Speaker 1: executives own. What is it about buying giant boats that
Speaker 1: appeals to them. It's a really great question. I mean,
Speaker 1: many people ask, why do you need a super yacht?
Speaker 1: No one needs a super yacht, you might need a house,
Speaker 1: and you could have a grand house. But I think
Speaker 1: it became a status symbol, and it became another venue
Speaker 1: for wealthy Russians to park their wealth in a zone
Speaker 1: that is outside the reach of Putin, who was viewed
Speaker 1: as potentially a threat to their assets if they fell
Speaker 1: follow of the government, so they could go after their accounts.
Speaker 1: About a physical thing like a yacht, it could be,
Speaker 1: you know, at the ends of the earth and harder
Speaker 1: to track down and take away exactly. And it's the
Speaker 1: ultimate mobile asset, right And we've seen that since the
Speaker 1: war started. Right after the invasion began, many Russian owned
Speaker 1: super yachts began racing across the ocean in search of
Speaker 1: safe waters in jurisdictions that were not enforcing sanctions. And
Speaker 1: many of them got away, but some of them did not,
Speaker 1: and some of them were seized. As long as we're
Speaker 1: defining our terms here, what exactly is a super yacht?
Speaker 1: How is it different from a yacht or a really
Speaker 1: really big yacht? Right, So this is a really interesting
Speaker 1: conversation I had with many in the industry. Some people
Speaker 1: define a super yacht as above forty meters. Others say
Speaker 1: it's above eighty meters, that's a sort of mega yacht
Speaker 1: or a giga yacht. A giga yacht, is that an
Speaker 1: actual term. It's a term, and I asked a lot
Speaker 1: of people, and most people said, there's no precise definition
Speaker 1: for that, but I think many in the industry view
Speaker 1: anything over eighty ms as well of another class. So
Speaker 1: eighty ms, by the way, for those of us in
Speaker 1: the US, that's two hundred sixty two feet, so we're
Speaker 1: talking just absolutely enormous, enormous, enormous, And in that category
Speaker 1: eighty and above. Russians are the biggest single owners. They
Speaker 1: own about There are about a hundred and fifty three
Speaker 1: super yachts in existence over eighty ms, and Russians own
Speaker 1: approximately thirty of them, according to the super Yacht Times. Stephanie,
Speaker 1: if you could stay with me for just a little bit,
Speaker 1: we will continue our conversation after the break. When Russia
Speaker 1: in data Ukraine in February, there were quite a few
Speaker 1: of these Russian executives, these billionaires who owned these yachts,
Speaker 1: they were under sanctions, and those boats took to the
Speaker 1: water and started going all over the place to avoid
Speaker 1: being seized. Some of them did some of them, and
Speaker 1: many of them ended up, for instance, off the coast
Speaker 1: of Turkey, which has not enforced sanctions, so that you
Speaker 1: know there are on last account, maybe at least you
Speaker 1: know half a dozen if not more, sanctioned Russian super
Speaker 1: yachts in Turkey that are hold up. They're safe, not
Speaker 1: frozen by Western governments. Others attempted to leave ports in
Speaker 1: Europe and were stopped because Western governments believed they were
Speaker 1: owned by sanctioned Russians. Some wan. You have this very
Speaker 1: dramatic moment in your story which shows the lengths to
Speaker 1: which the US is going to try to track down
Speaker 1: these ships and determine who owns them. That's right. In
Speaker 1: the case of this one super yacht, Medeia, the US
Speaker 1: stopped several crew members flying through l A airport, grilled
Speaker 1: them for several hours, revoked their visa, cloned their cell
Speaker 1: phone data for evidence, and sent them packing. And what
Speaker 1: were they asking them? What did they want to know
Speaker 1: from these pilots. They were asking them about who was
Speaker 1: using the super yacht, about Suleiman Karimov, the man they
Speaker 1: believe is the real owner of Medea. They were asking
Speaker 1: them why they were using code names for passengers on
Speaker 1: the super yacht. The code names were G one, G two,
Speaker 1: G three for different passengers. According to my reporting, the
Speaker 1: crew members responded that was fairly standard procedure on these
Speaker 1: super yachts, that you wouldn't identify them by name. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess the standard procedure for super yochts. But you know,
Speaker 1: for those of us who live in the super yacht world,
Speaker 1: sounds kind of like you're trying and hide the identities
Speaker 1: of people being on your boat. Absolutely, but it reflects
Speaker 1: what a different world the super yacht industry is, and
Speaker 1: you know how they operate. So the FBI went to
Speaker 1: great lengths to try to track down evidence proving their
Speaker 1: case that this was indeed owned by a sanction Russian
Speaker 1: super yacht. So in your story you write that Western governments,
Speaker 1: including the US, started going after these yachts to seize
Speaker 1: them and take them away from these Russian billionaires. That's right.
Speaker 1: So the US has been very aggressive. They have sent
Speaker 1: FBI agents all around the world chasing down super yachts
Speaker 1: they believed to be owned by sanctioned Russians. And the
Speaker 1: most notable case is the super yacht called Amadeia, which
Speaker 1: was frozen in Fiji when it landed there in April,
Speaker 1: and the US sought to seize it and engaged in
Speaker 1: a several weeks of legal wrangling in courts in Fiji
Speaker 1: in order to get permission to actually seize it and
Speaker 1: sail it to US waters. A Russian owned super yacht
Speaker 1: has set sail from Fiji. Its departure from the country
Speaker 1: marks the end of weeks of ongoing U s efforts
Speaker 1: to seize the three hundred million dollar vessel. Fiji Supreme
Speaker 1: Court cleared the US to take the Amadia, a nearly
Speaker 1: three hundred fifty foot luxury ship, earlier today tell us
Speaker 1: the story of this yacht. Who owns it well? The
Speaker 1: US believes that the real owner is a sanctioned Russian
Speaker 1: oligarch named Suleiman Karimov, who was actually sanctioned in eighteen
Speaker 1: under the Trump administration when he sanctioned half a dozen
Speaker 1: Russian billionaires for being behind Russia's malign influence operations in
Speaker 1: the aftermath of Russia's meddling in the election, and they
Speaker 1: pointed to evidence that he had installed a new spa bed,
Speaker 1: a pizza oven, super fast jet skis that he had bought.
Speaker 1: Now the owner has come forth as a very little
Speaker 1: known oligarch named Edwardov, who on paper at least is
Speaker 1: the beneficial owner of a nest of shell companies that
Speaker 1: technically owns the super yacht. So this takes us back
Speaker 1: to a really important thing in your story, which is
Speaker 1: it's really really difficult to figure out who owns these things, um,
Speaker 1: because I guess you just don't go to the super
Speaker 1: yacht lot and pick out one and take it home.
Speaker 1: Today is a really complicated thing to get your hands
Speaker 1: on one of these things. Can you just talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about, like how do you go get a
Speaker 1: super yacht? Well, generally speak king these yachts tend to
Speaker 1: be owned by companies rather than individuals as a way
Speaker 1: of limiting liability in the case of accidents. And that's
Speaker 1: the case with not just Russians, but many other nationalities
Speaker 1: who own these super yachts. But in the case of Russians,
Speaker 1: they are owned by layers of shell companies that it's
Speaker 1: often difficult to determine who the beneficial owner is. And
Speaker 1: that's by design, by design, but you know, there is
Speaker 1: a tendency, and I'm speaking generally here of Russians to
Speaker 1: have unofficial agreements about holding assets for others. Now it
Speaker 1: would appear that after Mr Karimov was sanctioned in ten
Speaker 1: it would be very difficult for him to buy and
Speaker 1: operate and maintain a super yacht. Now, the US maintains
Speaker 1: that the beneficial owner on paper of Ahmadea is this
Speaker 1: man Edward who Donatov, who at the time was not
Speaker 1: sanctioned and therefore was a safer straw owner of that vessel,
Speaker 1: holding it on behalf of Mr Karimov. And what does
Speaker 1: Mr Karimov say about this? Mr Karimov does not respond
Speaker 1: to questions, and he has remained remarkably silent on this matter.
Speaker 1: So he hasn't disputed probably that he owns or doesn't
Speaker 1: own this yet he has not disputed the management company
Speaker 1: that had managed it disputes that he owned it and
Speaker 1: says actually the real owner is Mr Kutuonatov. And just
Speaker 1: because Mr Karimov used the yacht is should not be
Speaker 1: used as evidence that he actually owns it. Now, I
Speaker 1: spoke to some forfeiture experts who you know compared the
Speaker 1: process of establishing ownership of sanctioned Russian assets to that
Speaker 1: of assets of drug lords that you know, jugglers don't
Speaker 1: always hold assets in their name. They often hold their
Speaker 1: house and their girlfriend's name, and that it's a similar
Speaker 1: situation here that often assets are held in the names
Speaker 1: of other individuals in order to protect a sanctioned individual from,
Speaker 1: you know, having his assets freezed. So when the US
Speaker 1: is going after these super yachts like this one, which
Speaker 1: they found all the way in Fiji, do they have
Speaker 1: a really difficult time figuring out who owns them in
Speaker 1: each case? Well, they have done an exhaustive investigation and
Speaker 1: they are still investigating to be able to prove to
Speaker 1: a court that indeed the owner is sule Man Karimov,
Speaker 1: a sanctioned Russian oligarch, and not this other individual, Edward
Speaker 1: Kuda Natov, who is not sanctioned by the US. They
Speaker 1: need to be able to prove that in a court
Speaker 1: of law, and they need to be able to produce
Speaker 1: sufficient evidence to convince a judge that their case is sound.
Speaker 1: Now they haven't proceeded yet with civil forfeiture complaint, so
Speaker 1: this process is likely to take years to litigate because
Speaker 1: the amount of evidence they need to compile and the
Speaker 1: process of forfeiture can take so many years. And how
Speaker 1: many other yachts has the US gone after they have
Speaker 1: issued a seizure warrant for another super yacht in Spain
Speaker 1: called Tango, owned by a Russian billionaire named Victor of Exelberg,
Speaker 1: who was also sanctioned in and they have boarded but
Speaker 1: not issued to seizure. Weren't yet another vessel in Antigua
Speaker 1: owned Bias sanctioned we believe Russian. Now the issue here
Speaker 1: is that they do need to be able to prove
Speaker 1: who the actual beneficial owner is and that means they're
Speaker 1: going to be interviewing and they have interviewed crew members,
Speaker 1: the captains aboard these vessels to determine who is actually
Speaker 1: using the asset, and they've already sent out subpoenas to
Speaker 1: several crew members. And what are the countries are going
Speaker 1: after these yachts? Europe has many of these super yachts,
Speaker 1: and Italy has frozen for mega yachts, probably more than
Speaker 1: any other European country, including one super yacht that has
Speaker 1: been linked to Vladimir Putin, jailed. Russian opposition leader Alexei
Speaker 1: Navalny's Anti corruption foundation has published a video. Now, according
Speaker 1: to the video, Vladimir Putting owns one of the world's
Speaker 1: largest yachts. Now this, yeah, because it comes up in
Speaker 1: stories quite a bit saying it's Putin's yacht. He disputes it.
Speaker 1: There have been all kinds of investigations trying to figure
Speaker 1: out does he own it or not? When you say
Speaker 1: it's linked to Vladimir Putin, what does that actually need? Well,
Speaker 1: I think in a lot of these cases there is
Speaker 1: evidence that he used it. So the Russian opposition leader
Speaker 1: Alexey Navalny his team did an investigation which found evidence
Speaker 1: that many of the crew members of the super yacht
Speaker 1: called Scheherazade actually worked for the same agency that is
Speaker 1: responsible for Putin's personal security, and Navalny, of course was
Speaker 1: the leader who was poisoned and then imprisoned. That's right,
Speaker 1: But according to US affidavits, the us IS also believes
Speaker 1: that those yachts are linked to Putin, and I think
Speaker 1: it raises the broader issue of you have super yachts
Speaker 1: and their ownership structures, which is owned by offshore companies
Speaker 1: with which in turn have their beneficial owners, but then
Speaker 1: there's who actually uses them. So I think in many cases,
Speaker 1: establishing ownership is really all about figuring out, well, there
Speaker 1: may be an owner on paper, but who is really
Speaker 1: actually using it and controlling it and making decisions about
Speaker 1: the vessel and its maintenance, and you know it's redesigned.
Speaker 1: Seventy of these super yachts aren't just big, they're unbelievably expensive.
Speaker 1: That's right. I mean many are incredibly expensive. There is
Speaker 1: one super yacht called Crescent, which is estimated to be
Speaker 1: worth million. There's another culture Harrizade, the one that is
Speaker 1: linked to Putent, that is worth at least six d
Speaker 1: and fifty million, if not more. These things are incredibly
Speaker 1: expensive to build. It takes at minimum four years before
Speaker 1: you put in a design plan, you hire an architect.
Speaker 1: They are unbelievably expensive to build and maintain, and just
Speaker 1: give an idea. You mentioned this one yacht came in
Speaker 1: at six hundred million dollars, just to give you a
Speaker 1: little basis of comparison for any of our listeners who
Speaker 1: are thinking about maybe buying a super yet the medium
Speaker 1: us in come right now. It's about dollars, which means
Speaker 1: that if you're making that much money a year, and
Speaker 1: you you know, maybe bring your lunch to work instead
Speaker 1: of going out and don't stop by the cafe, would
Speaker 1: bring coffee from home, and you save your pennies. It
Speaker 1: would take about thirteen thousand, six hundred thirty six years
Speaker 1: to earn enough to buy a super yacht worth six
Speaker 1: million dollars. It's just an incredible amount of money. And
Speaker 1: they kept getting bigger and bigger and more expensive as
Speaker 1: the years went on, particularly during the tens. When we
Speaker 1: come back from the break, continue my conversation with Stephanie Baker,
Speaker 1: and Stephanie, I'm gonna ask you where are all these
Speaker 1: confiscated yachts and who is paying to keep them afloat?
Speaker 1: You had written that it takes an enormous amount of
Speaker 1: just to keep these things running every year, right under
Speaker 1: normal conditions, The industry shorthand is that it will cost
Speaker 1: between ten and of a yacht's value to maintain it
Speaker 1: every year. Now, some people think that's an exaggeration. You know,
Speaker 1: certainly when they're in stuck in a port like they
Speaker 1: are when they're frozen, it's going to cost less. So
Speaker 1: I did quite a bit of reporting to talk to
Speaker 1: people in a position to know about how much it
Speaker 1: really costs to keep these things in port, frozen and
Speaker 1: immobilized imports. I calculated on an uber conservative estimate of
Speaker 1: three of the yachts value. That includes you know, a
Speaker 1: skeletal crew to maintain it, management companies to oversee the
Speaker 1: running of it, and then you know, as time goes on,
Speaker 1: there's going to be bigger expenses that come up. So
Speaker 1: we're talking about millions of dollars a year to maintain
Speaker 1: these ships while they're just sitting in port under you
Speaker 1: know exactly, And who actually is footing in the bill
Speaker 1: for that. Well, in the case of the US and Italy,
Speaker 1: it is the taxpayer. So do you have an estimate
Speaker 1: of how much you say, US taxpayers are on the
Speaker 1: hook for maintaining that's while they're sitting in port. Well,
Speaker 1: according to my reporting, Amadeia costs about ten million a
Speaker 1: year to maintain. And that's just one ten million dollars
Speaker 1: to sit in port. Yeah, that does not include any
Speaker 1: sort of unusual expenses that might crop up. So we're
Speaker 1: you know, we're talking unless this gets resolved fairly quickly,
Speaker 1: you know, tens of millions of dollars every year. So
Speaker 1: the question, I guess, is is it worth it? Um?
Speaker 1: What is the benefit other than taking punitive measures against
Speaker 1: people who the US believes active illegally or as you
Speaker 1: put it, you know their their their wealth is from
Speaker 1: ill gotten gains. What is the benefit of seizing beyond
Speaker 1: that kind of satisfaction taking a big boat away from
Speaker 1: a rich gap. Well. I spoke to a former Biden
Speaker 1: official who was running a big part of the U
Speaker 1: S sanctions campaign, and he said it was really about
Speaker 1: showing to the Russian people that they have been ripped
Speaker 1: off for years and disrupting the Russian elite. And I
Speaker 1: think it's fair to say that taking away these super
Speaker 1: yachts that they have spent so much money and so
Speaker 1: much time designing and building does hit a sore spot
Speaker 1: with many of these billionaires. So it's sending a message
Speaker 1: and a signaling mechanism that there will be consequences for
Speaker 1: Russia's war in Ukraine. Uh, Stephen, you even talked about
Speaker 1: how these governments have either detained or seized these big yachts,
Speaker 1: and you said that the US's intention is to sell
Speaker 1: them eventually to recoup all of these costs, once they're
Speaker 1: able to prove the actual ownership of these vessels. But
Speaker 1: were they going to sell them to? Who would buy
Speaker 1: Russian oligarchs yet? Is there a market for that? It's
Speaker 1: a really good question. I asked a lot of people
Speaker 1: that who said, well, I certainly wouldn't want to buy
Speaker 1: uh sanctioned Russian super yacht. Um, you know what would
Speaker 1: happen if I happened to sail into Asian waters and
Speaker 1: the Russian billionaire came up saying he wanted his yacht back.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to sleep. Now, having said that,
Speaker 1: there is precedent for this. It's not like a super
Speaker 1: yacht has never been seized or stolen before. If you
Speaker 1: remember a few years ago, there was a super yacht
Speaker 1: allegedly bought with stolen money from Malaysia's state Investment fund
Speaker 1: one m dB that was seized on the orders of
Speaker 1: the U S which was conducting an investigation, and it
Speaker 1: was sold several months later as the proceeds of crime. Now,
Speaker 1: in that case, it's sold for about half of what
Speaker 1: it was thought to be worth. So that gives you
Speaker 1: some indication of perhaps a discount that might be in
Speaker 1: play if any of these seized Russian super yachts do
Speaker 1: come up for sale. What do you think the future
Speaker 1: of all this is? Where is this heading? When it
Speaker 1: comes to these SATs that have been sees do you
Speaker 1: think that they will identify the owners that they will
Speaker 1: auction them off or is there some other end to
Speaker 1: this story. I think in the case of the US,
Speaker 1: they will probably be able to establish ownership and proceed
Speaker 1: through forfeiture, but it could take years to complete. I
Speaker 1: think in the case of the European countries that have
Speaker 1: frozen these yachts, I don't think they have the legal
Speaker 1: basis to go ahead with actually seizing and selling them.
Speaker 1: So I think they're going to be kept in these ports,
Speaker 1: and in some cases, like in Italy, taxpayers will be
Speaker 1: on the hook for paying for the maintenance, and other
Speaker 1: countries like Europe and France, port officials say the owners
Speaker 1: are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep, but it's all
Speaker 1: pretty murky ast who exactly is paying. I think it
Speaker 1: will be very difficult in legal cases to prove that
Speaker 1: they are owned by sanctioned Russian olive arcs. Stephanie Baker,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the show. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me. You can find Stephanie's story on Russian super
Speaker 1: yots at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us
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