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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about living life with the end

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Speaker 1: in mind with Jordan Grummit. Yeah. You know, as someone

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Speaker 1: who likes to nerd out on numbers and data, I

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Speaker 1: feel like it can be really easy to get lost

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Speaker 1: in a sea of like different formulas, rule of thumbs,

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Speaker 1: even like empirical research out there, all in an attempt

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Speaker 1: to ensure that you're living the most efficient and optimized

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Speaker 1: life that you possibly can. But I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: when the subtle shift can take place, right, Like, that's

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Speaker 1: when the means to the end begins to overshadow the

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Speaker 1: actual end, which for for many folks is just to

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Speaker 1: simply live a good and happy life. And instead we

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Speaker 1: should be, you know, living our lives us with the

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Speaker 1: end in mind. That is why we're talking with Dr

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Speaker 1: Jordan Grummitt today, also known as DoD G. Jordan's was

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Speaker 1: an internal medicine physician when he discovered the personal finance community,

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Speaker 1: and since then he started an award winning podcast. He's

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Speaker 1: now the author of Taking Stock, which is a hospice

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Speaker 1: doctor's guide essentially on financial independence, building wealth, and living

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Speaker 1: a regret free life. That's gonna be a published here

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Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks, and so we're excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about all of this today plus more with you, Jordan.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited for this conversation. Yeah, we're excited for

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Speaker 1: it to Jordan told us about you know, your upcoming book,

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Speaker 1: I think something like a year ago, and we've just

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Speaker 1: been waiting, waiting to get our hands on it because

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Speaker 1: it sounded so up our Alex. We're excited to chat

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Speaker 1: about that, but first we have to ask. We ask

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Speaker 1: every every guest what their craft beer equivalent is, what

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Speaker 1: it is that they're spending money on intentionally in the

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Speaker 1: here and now while saving and investing well for the future. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's that for you. It's so when I was in residency,

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Speaker 1: I had bought my first house, and I had all

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Speaker 1: of these empty walls, and so I went slogging through

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Speaker 1: a bunch of art galleries and I found that I

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Speaker 1: love fine art. I like artwork, and I like to

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Speaker 1: spend money on it. And several times I have gone

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Speaker 1: way out of budget to buy a specific piece because

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Speaker 1: it fits somewhere in my house. And I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: Years and years later, I still sometimes walk around my

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Speaker 1: house and stare at the artwork like that. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you had to drop some big money on that. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say either or the people was people kind

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Speaker 1: of money on? What did you cat? Plus you can't

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Speaker 1: you can't see it on your walls if you buy people. Well,

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Speaker 1: I've I've heard you talked about Jordan, like you've talked

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Speaker 1: about too, how you kind of got into the secondary

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Speaker 1: art market, right, and so you were taking like you

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Speaker 1: were buying pieces and then actually reselling them. You were

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Speaker 1: kind of finding your way within sort of the the

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Speaker 1: entire industry, within the art world, right. I was because

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Speaker 1: I found that the pieces I wanted to buy for

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Speaker 1: my condo at the time, we're way too expensive. And

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Speaker 1: when I found out how to get them cheaper, I

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Speaker 1: made it into a business. One caveat or thing to

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Speaker 1: warn you about is when you take your passion and

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Speaker 1: you turn it into a money making entity, sometimes that

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Speaker 1: decreases your excitement about that passion. The saddest part for

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Speaker 1: me is I would order a bunch of artwork to

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Speaker 1: then distribute to other people, and I'd have these beautiful

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Speaker 1: pieces of artwork that started feeling a lot like paper

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Speaker 1: to me because they were coming in and out so fast.

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Speaker 1: So that's the only problem. I actually enjoy it a

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Speaker 1: lot more now that I don't deal in artwork anymore.

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Speaker 1: I could see that. I guess it felt like a liability, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it felt like inventory that you made were just

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Speaker 1: like dollar signs. You're like, okay, man, this is this

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Speaker 1: one for me. I'm gonna make you know, five grand

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Speaker 1: on this piece of art instead of being able to

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Speaker 1: the actual art, just enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, And you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that you love about some type

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Speaker 1: of collection is the scarcity. So what happens when it

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Speaker 1: becomes your business and it's not scarce anymore. That painting

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Speaker 1: that you loved, You've got twenty of them sitting on

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Speaker 1: your table ready to be shipped out somewhere. It loses

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Speaker 1: that sense of scarcity um or it's less unobtainable, and

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Speaker 1: that makes it less enjoyable. Enjoyable. Yeah, well, you are

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Speaker 1: not going to convince us to stop enjoying beer on

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Speaker 1: our show, even even though it's a it's a part

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Speaker 1: of what we do here. What Joel was saying about,

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Speaker 1: you know, your book and why we were so excited

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Speaker 1: about it was the fact that you're just going to

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Speaker 1: be talking so much about death, and that's not a

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Speaker 1: topic that often gets touched on within personal finance and

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Speaker 1: those few topics most of us try to avoid. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: folks tend to look, yeah, look, look towards like the

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Speaker 1: more uplifting topics. I guess. But I mean, for you, George,

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Speaker 1: like death, it's been a part of your your life

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Speaker 1: since you were young. You know, you talk about how, like,

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Speaker 1: when you're seven years old your dad passed away. I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine how painful that was, and you just talk

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Speaker 1: about how that event, how it influenced your personal story.

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Speaker 1: It had a pretty wide ranging impact, right, Oh, it

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Speaker 1: totally did. And and think about now, as someone who

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Speaker 1: deals with personal finance, I have a podcast where we

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Speaker 1: talk about money all the time. You know, I watched

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Speaker 1: my dad diet forty How could that not change my

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Speaker 1: opinions about money and how we use it. He died

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Speaker 1: at such a young age. If he hadn't spent money

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Speaker 1: and had been holding it and waiting until he was

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Speaker 1: older to do the things he really loved, he would

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Speaker 1: have really missed out. Yeah, And and so when you

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Speaker 1: talk about the wide ranging impact. Like you, even kind

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Speaker 1: of your career decisions were largely based on your earliest

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Speaker 1: memories of your father. Right. Yeah, he died when I

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Speaker 1: was seven, and it was just at that time that

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Speaker 1: most kids, especially boys, idolized their fathers, and so I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be just like him. When he died, I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a reason, and being a little kid, I

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Speaker 1: tended to look at everything through my own personal lens.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of felt like I was responsible, like

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Speaker 1: I did something wrong and that's why he died. And

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Speaker 1: so the way to make up for that was I

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Speaker 1: could become a doctor like he was. I could step

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Speaker 1: into his shoes, I could finish that work that the

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Speaker 1: poor guy was never able to do. And that became

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Speaker 1: a real sense of identity and purpose for me. It

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Speaker 1: carried me throughout, you know, difficulties in schooling. I had

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Speaker 1: a learning disability and it was unclear that I was

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Speaker 1: ever going to learn how to read. It carried me

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Speaker 1: through those long hours of studying in high school and college. Um,

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Speaker 1: it just made it clear in my head that this

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Speaker 1: is the thing I was supposed to do with my life. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about how you've kind of entered into the

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Speaker 1: personal finance space, like you're still working out right, but

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Speaker 1: just less than you used to. So I still do

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Speaker 1: some medicine, but I only practice hospice and pillative care,

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Speaker 1: which is taking care of the dying, and I spend

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Speaker 1: maybe ten to twelve hours a week doing it, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to you know, in my prime, I was probably

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Speaker 1: working sixties seventy hours a week, which is yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of hours. Like what what did it

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Speaker 1: actually look like like? What did the day to day

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Speaker 1: look like for you when you were clocking all the

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Speaker 1: all of those hours as you were a hospice doctor.

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Speaker 1: Well before I became a full time hospice I was

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Speaker 1: running a general internal medicine practice, which meant that I

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Speaker 1: was taking care of pretty much adults in everything non surgical.

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Speaker 1: So I've seen in the office, I was seeing them

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Speaker 1: in the US, I was seeing them when they got

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Speaker 1: admitted to the hospital. I was going to nursing homes,

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Speaker 1: and I owned my own practice and pretty much was

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Speaker 1: on call for myself. So if you can imagine, I

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Speaker 1: was on call seven seven days a week, all nights,

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Speaker 1: all weekends, all holidays, and I would start every morning

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Speaker 1: at four. I dragged myself out of bed. I would

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Speaker 1: run to the nursing homes. Then I'd run to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: Then I'd run to the office. When I was done

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Speaker 1: with the office, I'd run back to the hospital. At

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Speaker 1: the nursing home, I had a busy life. I was

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Speaker 1: getting calls at two or three in the morning on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis. I was working all weekends. I mean,

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Speaker 1: pretty much, I was the guy the bucks stopped with me.

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Speaker 1: And in some ways that really helped me build a

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Speaker 1: financially successful practice. It helped me be a part of

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Speaker 1: people's lives and provide for them stellar medical care. But

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Speaker 1: it didn't really feed my soul, and in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, it was the quick road to burn out.

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Speaker 1: When I realized that I wasn't enjoying what I was

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Speaker 1: doing anymore. I was spending more and more time doing

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Speaker 1: pay or work and doing things that didn't feel important

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Speaker 1: the way actually going to see patients used to. And

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Speaker 1: I started questioning whether this was the way I wanted

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Speaker 1: to spend the rest of my life. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: was it like the artwork, How is it that you

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Speaker 1: found a way to enjoy the work again? Was it

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Speaker 1: just the ridiculous hours, Like did you realize that that

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Speaker 1: was going to be unsustainable or was it the actual work?

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Speaker 1: So I like to say a miracle happened in two

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Speaker 1: tho fourteen. First understand that as I realized that I

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Speaker 1: couldn't go on doing this work, I went to my

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Speaker 1: financial advisor. I said, look, I'm gonna need to step away.

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Speaker 1: Do I have enough money to support myself if I

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Speaker 1: leave this job and decide not to work anymore. My

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Speaker 1: financial advisor collected all sorts of information from me, and

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Speaker 1: then he said, how much do you want to spend

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Speaker 1: a year? Which is something I had never thought about.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we had great financial habits. We saved greater

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Speaker 1: than our income, we invested, we owned real estate. My

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Speaker 1: parents had modeled such great behavior. I was doing everything right,

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Speaker 1: but I had no idea. Uh and so I kind

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Speaker 1: of scratched my head and said, you know, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to live on two thousand dollars a year. And imagine

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Speaker 1: that I had no idea what I spent every here.

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Speaker 1: I never looked at my budget. I just knew that

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Speaker 1: we saved. I just knew that, like my income generally

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Speaker 1: went right into investments, and my wife's income pretty much

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Speaker 1: when too the bank account so that we could support

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Speaker 1: our lives. Right, so we're saving a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: But I never I never paid attention to it. So

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Speaker 1: it was a shot in the dark. And he did

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Speaker 1: those calculations based on three hundred thousand dollars. He didn't

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Speaker 1: take into account that we had seven figures worth of

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Speaker 1: real estate and he just didn't even put it into

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Speaker 1: the calculations. And he said, you know what, You're nowhere

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Speaker 1: near where you need to be. You're gonna just have

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Speaker 1: to keep working. So then I went to my accountant,

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Speaker 1: who is my mother, and I said, Mom, when can

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Speaker 1: I retire? I can't keep doing this? And she said,

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Speaker 1: when you have ten million dollars. And I never questioned.

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Speaker 1: I was never like, why ten million, Where the heck

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Speaker 1: did you come up with that number? It was just

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Speaker 1: something she came up with. And so I said, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't have ten million dollars, many keep working. And

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Speaker 1: here's where the miracle happened. I was in my office

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Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen seeing patients and I got a

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Speaker 1: phone call and my secretary said, Hey, there's this guy

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Speaker 1: on the phone. His name is Jim Dally. He just

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Speaker 1: wrote a book called The White Coat investor, and he

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Speaker 1: wants you to review it for your medical blog. At

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Speaker 1: the time, I was writing a blog about medicine in life,

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Speaker 1: and I said, sure, you're gonna send me a free book,

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Speaker 1: you know, sign me up. I got his book and

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Speaker 1: I read about personal finance and financial independence, and I

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Speaker 1: literally once I opened it, I couldn't put it down.

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Speaker 1: And a bunch of hours later I knew, hey, wait,

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Speaker 1: you're actually financially independent. You don't need to work anymore.

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Speaker 1: And that started a real period of anxiety and depression

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Speaker 1: because the moment I got done celebrating, which was very quickly,

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Speaker 1: I had a panic attack when I realized two things.

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Speaker 1: One is if I didn't if I wasn't being a doctor,

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Speaker 1: if that was my not going to be my identity anymore?

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Speaker 1: Who the heck am I? Because I had no idea,

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Speaker 1: no idea what I wanted. I had no idea what

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Speaker 1: a sense of purpose looked like. And then the other

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Speaker 1: thing was, am I ready to step away from this

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Speaker 1: wisp of a connection with my father who died all

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Speaker 1: those years ago? You know? Can I do this? So

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Speaker 1: I had a panic attack. I fell into a fairly

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Speaker 1: deep depression, and over the next six to twelve months.

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Speaker 1: Instead of just quitting my job and throwing the baby

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Speaker 1: out with the bathwater, I instead started to really think

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Speaker 1: is purposeful for me? Where do I go with my life?

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Speaker 1: And the first step was, Hey, you have enough money,

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Speaker 1: let's start getting rid of the things at your job

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Speaker 1: that cause you friction. Like, let's not just quit all together,

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Speaker 1: but what do you hate the most? And I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: my actual practice is causing me all sorts of stress.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting calls on the weekend. So I dropped my

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Speaker 1: medical practice and just saw patients in the nursing homes

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Speaker 1: and then did hospice in a few other things that

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Speaker 1: I call medical side hospitals, side hustles. Right, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk more. Actually, I mean you kind of I

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Speaker 1: feel like you you're rounded the horn. You're you're kind

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Speaker 1: of touching all financial independence that you realize that you

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Speaker 1: know kind of where you were, but like you're talking

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Speaker 1: out here about meaningful work, right, Like I guess what

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing is is that you were able to cut

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Speaker 1: back in such a way that you were able to

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Speaker 1: to see the beauty of the art again on your walls.

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Speaker 1: You're able to scale it back uh to a level

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Speaker 1: that you were able to find sustainable. And you say

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Speaker 1: now that you would do this work even if you

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Speaker 1: weren't paid for it. What is your take on meaningful work? Like,

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Speaker 1: how would you recommend for folks to sort of gauge

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Speaker 1: and to figure out, you know, whether they maybe either

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Speaker 1: have the right career or if they are approaching work

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Speaker 1: from a healthy perspective. So that's the thing, is that

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Speaker 1: what's meaningful for one person isn't for another. The first

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Speaker 1: thing to do is assess where you are today, what

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Speaker 1: is your job? Are there parts of it you enjoy

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Speaker 1: or they're parts of it you don't enjoy. If they're

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Speaker 1: parts of it you enjoy, could you get rid of

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Speaker 1: or subtract out those things you don't enjoy if you

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Speaker 1: don't like it at all? Is their way to pivot

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Speaker 1: to something that's more meaningful. But the big question, which

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Speaker 1: I think you are just getting to, is how do

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Speaker 1: we define what's meaningful for us? And I think there's

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Speaker 1: a process where we have to start questioning what do purpose,

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Speaker 1: identity and connections look like in our life? And I

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Speaker 1: think there's some exercises and some there's some ways to

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Speaker 1: go about it. But the big mistake we often make

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Speaker 1: is we kind of put the horse before the cart,

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Speaker 1: or the cart before the horse, in the sense that

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Speaker 1: we think of our finances first as opposed to thinking

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Speaker 1: more about purpose and identity, which I think if we

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Speaker 1: started there, we then could build a better, more meaningful

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Speaker 1: financial structure for ourselves. So in your book, Jordan's, you

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Speaker 1: talk about Liz and her story and how money was

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Speaker 1: kind of a central goal in her life, right causing

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Speaker 1: causing real harm when it came to the things that

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Speaker 1: that actually mattered. So so can you kind of share

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Speaker 1: her story um with our listeners. Yet, Liz was someone

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Speaker 1: who I met in hospice, and I say loosely say met,

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Speaker 1: because actually when I met her she was on life support.

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Speaker 1: I really more met her family. Liz was like a

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Speaker 1: lot of us. She saw that her finances were the

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Speaker 1: key to living an abundant life with her two children

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Speaker 1: in her spouse, and she set off on a plan

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Speaker 1: to do it a lot of us do, which is

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Speaker 1: build a life of financial independence. She might not have

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Speaker 1: used those words, but she wanted to start building a

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Speaker 1: financial life that would pay for itself. So work, not work,

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Speaker 1: spend time with the family. She had all these kind

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Speaker 1: of decisions, and she did just that. She dutifully saved

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Speaker 1: and invested, She increased her income, and she was at

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Speaker 1: this point where things were on autopilot and she could

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Speaker 1: see an end. She could say, oh, and two to

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Speaker 1: three years, we're gonna have this much in the bank.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna give me all sorts of freedom. But

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Speaker 1: the strange thing is, instead of that making her happy

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Speaker 1: or joyful, she, like I did when I read The

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Speaker 1: White Coat Investor, found herself falling into a depression and

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Speaker 1: being anxious. Once this whole idea of focusing on her

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Speaker 1: finances were was cleared, she didn't really know where to

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Speaker 1: focus her energy. And that left to a lad to

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Speaker 1: a sense of emptiness because she hadn't done that kind

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Speaker 1: of purpose work, and it ended up in tragedy. She

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Speaker 1: actually got more and more depressed. She started drinking more alcohol,

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Speaker 1: she started sleeping less, and eventually she fell asleep while

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Speaker 1: at the wheel and Uh I met her family when

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Speaker 1: they were deciding whether to remove life support, and it

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Speaker 1: was a very sad, sad story of how going after

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Speaker 1: actually her financial goals didn't actually solve her problems. And

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Speaker 1: in many ways cause more. Yeah, I think any of

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Speaker 1: us who have gotten you know, hopefully not obviously to

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Speaker 1: Lizza's extent, but when we start to get serious about

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Speaker 1: our personal finances and uh, there is that difficulty sometimes

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Speaker 1: and not letting it kind of begin to run our

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Speaker 1: lives as opposed to to letting it aid us right

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Speaker 1: in the mission of achieving some of the things we

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Speaker 1: want to want to achieve in having more freedom in

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Speaker 1: our lives. Sometimes it can, it can overtake our lives.

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Speaker 1: But you talk about money as obviously it's not not important,

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Speaker 1: it's it's very important, and you actually kind of talk

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Speaker 1: about it as like sygen, can you can you kind

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Speaker 1: of like flush that out for us? Yeah, this was

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Speaker 1: actually a quote. It came up when I was doing

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Speaker 1: a podcast episode with Jim Dally, who we already mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and he was describing money like oxygen. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you don't have enough money for the basics, right, if

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Speaker 1: you're running out of food and you can't buy more,

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Speaker 1: if you're dependent on your car and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden the transmission totally falls out on you and you

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Speaker 1: have to get it fixed. Oxygen is exactly what you

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Speaker 1: need if you don't have that money to do what

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Speaker 1: you need to do. It's like not having enough oxygen.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, once you get past to a

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Speaker 1: certain level, once you have enough oxygen to sustain you

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Speaker 1: and be comfortable, having more oxygen doesn't do anything more.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of this dichotomy of having enough to

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Speaker 1: get you to a sense of safety and to cover

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Speaker 1: your basic needs, but after that it doesn't really make

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Speaker 1: you any happier. And I think we forget that often. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's like a limit to the effectiveness of oxen, right, so, um,

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Speaker 1: you don't necessarily need to go walking around with an

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Speaker 1: oxygen tank strapped to your face, um, all day every day.

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Speaker 1: And and in fact, I could have negative side effects,

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Speaker 1: so there is too much oxygen is actually flammable, right,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to smoke while that's it. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly that's a good point. So yeah, no, that I

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Speaker 1: think that's a that's a really great analogy, because for

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Speaker 1: some people there's just not enough oxygen they need they

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Speaker 1: need um, they need to help them breathe, and and

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Speaker 1: and same thing for money. Some for some people there

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Speaker 1: just isn't enough money. But then for other people we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about it incorrectly, and we're assuming that it's going

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Speaker 1: to relieve what ails us. But but really it's it's

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Speaker 1: something else we need to be searching for. It's really

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Speaker 1: a tool and not a goal. And the mistake that

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Speaker 1: Liz made, and the mistake even that I made early

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Speaker 1: on in my career is I really focused on it

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Speaker 1: as a goal, and I think that leads to emptiness

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Speaker 1: in the end. That's right. Well, Jordan, We've got plenty

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Speaker 1: more questions we want to get to with you as

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Speaker 1: we continue to talk about living life with the end

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Speaker 1: in mind. We will get to all of those right

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Speaker 1: after this break. All right, we're back from the break.

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Speaker 1: We're still talking with Jordan's Grummit's talking about his new book,

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Speaker 1: Taking Stock, and just how how living with the End

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Speaker 1: in Mind influences how we interact with our money today.

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Speaker 1: And Jordan, you talked about, you know, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about work culture and finding meaning and work, but you

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Speaker 1: know you talk about in your book how the broader

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Speaker 1: American culture it actually kind of incentivizes over work, right,

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Speaker 1: and it also incentivizes spending too much money, like just

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Speaker 1: insane levels of consumption. It's it's kind of like the

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Speaker 1: water that we swim in, and we have like a

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Speaker 1: hard time realizing that maybe it's unhealthy waters that we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in um, but it's it's what's all around us.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's hard to it's hard to even to decipher.

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Speaker 1: So how do we maybe fight back when kind of

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Speaker 1: the waters that we're swimming in our treacherous and we

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Speaker 1: don't even know it. I think the first step is

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Speaker 1: to really do some of that work on or self

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Speaker 1: and really redefine the goal. So we're saying that money

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Speaker 1: is a tool, not a goal. When we treat as

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Speaker 1: a goal, the endpoint becomes how do I make more money?

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Speaker 1: But what if we reframe that and say money can

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Speaker 1: be a tool that helps us do some things that

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Speaker 1: are really meaningful and purposeful to us. But it's one

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Speaker 1: of many tools. Right. We have our time, we have

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Speaker 1: our energy, we have our relationships or skill and knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Those are other things we have in our tool sets.

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Speaker 1: So regardless of where we are economically at the moment,

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Speaker 1: how can we reframe the conversation so that we start

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Speaker 1: thinking about what we're using these tools for, which is really,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, getting a better understanding of our unique purpose,

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Speaker 1: identity and connections. I use those three words. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you look at Maslow's pyramid, we talk about self actualization.

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Speaker 1: If you look at people who study happiness and especially

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Speaker 1: economic levels and happiness, they talk about things like life

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Speaker 1: actual life actualization, or emotional well being. We can call

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Speaker 1: it all these different things. But in a sense, how

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Speaker 1: do we use the tools we have today as well

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Speaker 1: as the tools we are building in the future to

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Speaker 1: start thinking about those things now and building that into

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Speaker 1: our life before it's too late, but certainly before we're

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Speaker 1: on our deathbed and you meet a doctor like me, well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna continue to talk about fire here in a second,

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Speaker 1: doc Or I want to call you doc G. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I've ever referred to you as as Jordan,

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Speaker 1: because on your show you go buy doc G. Sorry

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Speaker 1: about that, um, Jordan's I want to hear you talk

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Speaker 1: about your your non budget because it actually sounds a

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Speaker 1: lot like maybe what what Joel like what you and

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Speaker 1: your family? I read it, I was like, oh, man, well,

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Speaker 1: Jordan and I definitely need to talk like I'm a

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Speaker 1: nerdy zero sum budget or I like to dive into

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Speaker 1: all the numbers and I can tell you where every

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Speaker 1: penny went back to two thousand seven, literally every penny.

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Speaker 1: But but how is it that your family budgets, because

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Speaker 1: you're talking about it within the book, But I would

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Speaker 1: just love to hear you talk about how you take

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Speaker 1: a non budgeting approach to budgeting. So we are horrible budgets.

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Speaker 1: We are not good at try acting, we are not

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Speaker 1: great at writing everything down as we do it. This

431
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: is just my family. Um, we're less organized than that.

432
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: So from the beginning, we had to decide a way

433
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 1: to budget, but not budget. And so what we did

434
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 1: is we built these habits into our life that would

435
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: protect us so that we didn't have to be as careful.

436
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 1: So I mentioned it before, an easy way of doing

437
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: that is we've always been a two income family, so

438
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 1: we automatically take one paycheck and it goes right into investments,

439
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: so there's no way we can use it. We don't

440
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,239
Speaker 1: even consider it part of the money that's available. It

441
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,199
Speaker 1: doesn't even touch our savings or checking account where we

442
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: would be going for money. It's like it almost doesn't

443
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 1: even exist. Yeah, and and it just makes it easier.

444
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 1: We also have just set a certain number of other

445
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: rules up that make life easier. So we don't carry cash.

446
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 1: And remember this is especially before the times where you

447
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: could just pay for everything with your phone, But it

448
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 1: used to be if you had ask in your pocket,

449
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: you'd be more likely to go to a vending machine

450
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: or something like that. So if we don't have it

451
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 1: in our pockets, we tend not to spend it. So

452
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: we just kind of set up these easy rules. Or

453
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: if we're buying something big, we we almost never buy

454
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: a big purchase on a whim. Like if we walked

455
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: into the store looking for something else and we see

456
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 1: a big purchase we need, there's always going to be

457
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 1: a cooling off period where you go home and you

458
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: think about it for a week. So so Matt would

459
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 1: tell me as someone who's not a great budget and

460
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: has struggled with it for a long time, as someone

461
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 1: who who wants to be a good budget or but

462
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: just I don't know, my personality and budgeting just don't

463
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: jive very well together. That's fine, yeah, but it's it's

464
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: one of those things where he would say, and I

465
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: think he makes a point here that when you don't budget,

466
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: it actually prevents you from being able to put more

467
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: money towards the things that matter. The most. So let's

468
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: say you are already good with money, you are good

469
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: at saving and investing. Um, it's it's disallowing you from

470
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: putting some of those important dollars to work in ways

471
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: that would actually positively benefit your life. So do you

472
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: feel like you're missing out in that regard um that

473
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: you're that you're maybe I don't know, being too cautious

474
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: or something like that, or or maybe you're you're you've

475
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: got some dollars sitting on the sidelines, um, that you

476
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: could be using in a way that helps you live

477
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: your best life. Now, I don't know, re lack of

478
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: a better way of saying it. I think there's some

479
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: habits that you set up up front that can mitigate

480
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: those worries. Right, So, if upfront and you start deciding,

481
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: here's how we want to save, here's what percentage we

482
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: want to allocate to investments, here's what we want to

483
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: be in a bucket that we don't even think twice

484
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: about using. Like, if there's something we want to do,

485
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: when the money happens to be there in that account,

486
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: go ahead and use it. I think if you're thoughtful

487
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: about that in the beginning, and then occasionally you reevaluate,

488
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: you can take yourself away from kind of the mind

489
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: numbing part of budgeting. So it can't be mindless. It

490
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: never can be. And as as you guys are discussing,

491
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: money is meant to be used, So sidelining your money

492
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: automatically and not ever reevaluating would be a bad idea, um,

493
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: But making some decisions at the start and then allowing

494
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: it to automatically happen just relieves you some of the

495
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: moment to moment stress of the everyday decision making, right,

496
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: because we'd like to automate something so that we don't

497
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,679
Speaker 1: have to keep on making the same decisions over and

498
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: over again and causing ourselves that stress. So you're talking

499
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: about setting these rules up at the beginning, which makes

500
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: a ton of sense, which also reminds me of you

501
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: talking about how you kind of frontload the sacrifice when

502
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: it comes to putting in the hard work on the

503
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: front end, because we kind of have this warped view

504
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: of time in particular, and you wrote you spend a

505
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: good amount of time a good amount of your book

506
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: talking about time. Uh, And it's almost like there's this

507
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: parallel between how you view time and money, perhaps because

508
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 1: it seems like you are very efficient with your time, right,

509
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: whether that's through how you schedule things or uh that's

510
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe the positive view it view that on the other end,

511
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: and it might be your kids telling you to, you know,

512
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: to tell them to stop rushing rushing through life. But yeah,

513
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: how do you find that balance between being efficient with

514
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: your time versus feeling like that you are just rushing

515
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: through life? Because it felt like you're kind of touching

516
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: on it a little bit, you know when it comes

517
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: to money, because you're finding ways to intentionally actively spend

518
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: that money. Uh, talk for a moment. I guess how

519
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 1: it is that you actively are spending your time and

520
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: finding ways to enjoy life within the moment. So I

521
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: love that that statement, they're spending your time. And I

522
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: talk about this a little in the book. You know,

523
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: we like to pretend that we can manipulate time, We

524
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: like to pretend we can commoditize it, but in fact,

525
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: the reality is that we have a set amount of

526
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: time on this earth. We don't know if that's going

527
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: to be forty years or sixty years or eighty years,

528
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 1: and that time doesn't change. It's just there. So the

529
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: only thing we really have any modicum of control over

530
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: is what we put what activities we place in those

531
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: time slots. Right, if you think about your life, and

532
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: we call those time slots days, weeks, months, or years,

533
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: or however you want to parse them out, But those

534
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: time slots are stable, They don't change. The only thing

535
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: we possibly can do is change our behavior. So the

536
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: question becomes, how do we become most efficient at filling

537
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: those time slots with things that have meaning and purpose

538
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: for us? And that's the idea, Like is that frontloading

539
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: for some people that will be frontloading so that they

540
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: can make a lot of money, this potential energy or fuel,

541
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: which then can relieve them of things like going to

542
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: a job to work, so that they can then fill

543
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: those time slots with other things that are more important

544
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: to them, like spending time with family or hobbies. That's

545
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: the idea, that's the framework. What the finances do is

546
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: the finances, as I was saying, is just one more

547
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: tool to help us better control what we fill those

548
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: time slots with. But just like everything else, you can

549
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: go too far. And I found this in my life also,

550
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: is that I became so efficient at filling those time

551
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: slots that sometimes I was letting life pass me by

552
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: or causing myself or my family significant stress because I

553
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: was acting if as if there wasn't time abundance. I

554
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: was really living in a place of time stress, and

555
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: it was self created. I was putting that on myself. Yeah,

556
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Well, when you talk about the Fire movement,

557
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: that's largely what people in the Fire movement are seeking after, right,

558
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: is full total control over every second of their future,

559
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: as opposed to feeling like or knowing that they have

560
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: to go into work to earn a paycheck. And you know,

561
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: I'm curious because you know, when you found out after

562
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: reading Jim Dolly's book, you were like, wait a second,

563
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: I'm kind of part of this movement. I'm basically there, right,

564
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: I have saved and invested enough money where, um, I

565
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to go back and work anymore. And

566
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: I was actually fascinated by this little spot in your

567
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: book where you you talk about how the Fire movement

568
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: has taught you a lot, but you also you also

569
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: say that it's steeped in fear, and so I don't know,

570
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: I kind of I tend to agree with you on this,

571
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: but I'm curious as to what you mean by that,

572
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: so I think one fear that it's steeped in is

573
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: this idea that we are going to die broke, or

574
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: that we're not going to have enough money, so we

575
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: scurry to collect as money as as much money as possible.

576
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 1: US experts who like to talk on podcast talk about

577
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: things like the safe which rawal rate, or the twenty

578
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: five times rule, and we endlessly go back and forth

579
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: about the importance of knowing what exactly is enough, Whereas

580
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: in reality, the Fire Movement sometimes gets it wrong in

581
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: the sense that we don't have to wait until some

582
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: day to start living a life of meaning and purpose now,

583
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: And it gets back to this idea that money is

584
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: a tool instead of a goal. I think sometimes the

585
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: Fire Movement makes money that goal, and so we abandon

586
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: everything else to get there, whereas I think we should

587
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: look at it as a tool. And it's wonderful to

588
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: hit financial independence, so you have a lot of that

589
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: tool in order to do what you want. But financial

590
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: independence might come in ten or twenty years, it might

591
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: not be feasible for everybody. How can we start living

592
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: lives of meaning and purpose? How can we start meeting

593
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: our true goals now, regardless of where we are in

594
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: our financial independence journey regardless of how much net worth

595
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: we have saved up. And so that's where I think

596
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 1: we get it wrong. And to give the Fire movement credit,

597
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: it's starting to really pivot, and that's why you have

598
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: these movements which talk a lot more about enjoying life now,

599
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: things like Slow FI or Coast Fire or Barrista Fire.

600
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: All these movements are kind of saying, yes, financial independence

601
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: is important, but I'm not going to be there for

602
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: twenty years. I want to enjoy life today. How do

603
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: I fit my financial framework into a life of meeting today? Yeah,

604
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: And just like we're talking with time, it takes just

605
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: a level of intentionality to determine, to predetermine essentially what

606
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: it is that you know what your what your life

607
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: is gonna look like, whether it be with your finances

608
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: or with the hours or the minutes that passed. I

609
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: think for so many people in the movement at times,

610
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: it has gotten so easy to buy into, at least

611
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: in prior years, a one like just this one viewpoint. Yeah,

612
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: one size fits all approach to fire, and for a

613
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: lot of people it's it's left them with some years

614
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: of misery. And so I've seen that as a real outcome,

615
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: and so I agree, then maybe the changing face and

616
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: nature and the different you know, paths to get there

617
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: because I think, you know, Matt and I were all

618
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: about pursuing financial independence, but um, if it's going to

619
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: cause you a decade or more of misery to get there,

620
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: then it's probably not worth it, and you'd probably rethink

621
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, what you want your life to look like

622
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: from the get go. Yeah, and you know, there are

623
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: people who are waking up in the morning and don't

624
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: know where the food that's going to be on their

625
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: table for dinner is coming from. And for those people,

626
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: looking at fire right now is probably not an option.

627
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: I would argue the other way around that looking and

628
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: meaning and purpose and evaluating your tools, both economically and

629
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: otherwise is something you can do even when you're in

630
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: the most direct circumstances to start building a life. And

631
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: I think if you just say, oh, fire is the

632
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: answer for a lot of people, it's not going to

633
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: serve them. I'm thinking now about how you were talking

634
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: about the different hierarchy of needs that we have, and

635
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: like you're talking about like purpose and your identity, the

636
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: different connections that you have you're talking about how someone

637
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: who might be maybe at the lower end of the

638
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: income spectrum, how for them, they're they're not really fire,

639
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: isn't serving them, but that is something that they can

640
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: strive towards. When it comes to maybe what we see

641
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: as our purpose, like that's something that also changes and

642
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: that sometimes we're striving to see change over time as well,

643
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: Like how do you pivot during when you find yourself

644
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: in some different life phases as you do feel like

645
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: your purposes is shifting some So purpose can definitely change

646
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: from time to time, and so I think it's really

647
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: important to do a few things. One is one thing

648
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: that we do with hospice patients that I talk about

649
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: in the book is a life review. And it's just

650
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: a process, and I'm not going to go through it

651
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: all right now, but it's a process of asking yourself

652
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: some basic questions about who you are, what's happened to

653
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: you in your past, what are you hoping for in

654
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: the future, and what is real meaningful to you. I

655
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: think the first thing to do is to do that

656
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: life review on a somewhat regular basis, maybe once a year,

657
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: so we can start noticing when our purpose is shifting.

658
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: That's kind of step one. Step two is, once we

659
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: have a better feeling for our purpose, how do we

660
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: take where we are today? And this could be in

661
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: our life situation where this could be in our job

662
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: and our employment. But how do we take where we

663
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: are today and navigate towards a life that feels more purposeful.

664
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: I spend some time in the book talking about the

665
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: art of subtraction. This is this idea that once we

666
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: have a better feeling for what our purposes, we can

667
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 1: look at where we are a day, look at our

668
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: jobs in our lives and say, what's giving us friction,

669
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: what's keeping us from that deeper sense of purpose we

670
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: are now more in touch with, and what could we

671
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: remove from our current life to provide more space toward

672
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: to work towards purpose. So I think step one again

673
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: is that you have to do some type of life

674
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: for view on a regular basis to see how purpose

675
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: is changing. And then it's really looking at your life

676
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: where you stand today and trying to decide what you

677
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: could or couldn't subtract from it and how that could

678
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: move you in the right direction. I like that. All right, Hey,

679
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: we've got a few more questions to get to with you, Jordan.

680
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: We want to talk continue talking about living life with

681
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: the ended mind. What a great place to start when

682
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: we're thinking about where we put our money, with with

683
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: how we use whatever resources we've been given. What we

684
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: get to just a few a few more questions with

685
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 1: you right after this. All right, we are back from

686
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: a break and we're talking with Dr Jordan Grummitt and George.

687
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: Let's get kind of personal. I mean, this whole book,

688
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: I guess as personal for you, but like, how do

689
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: you personally think about your future now and the reality

690
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: of death and light of your profession, you know, in

691
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: light of your proximities of those who have gone through

692
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 1: this period at the end of their life as they're

693
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: looking back and reevaluating. So I think I've really learned

694
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: two major things as a hospice doctor, which is, truly

695
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: it's a huge privilege to be with people at this

696
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: time of their lives. The one is I really don't

697
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: fear death the way I used to. Like I've been

698
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: present for many deaths and generally not always, but generally

699
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: they're peaceful and painless. Um and if you're lucky and

700
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: if you've set up your life hopefully in a good way.

701
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: You're surrounded by people and family and things that are

702
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: important to you, So my fear of the physical transformation

703
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 1: is certainly less than it's ever been. I'm much more

704
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: at peace personally with this idea that one day I

705
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: will die and what it will look like. But the

706
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: other thing that's really taught me is when someone gets

707
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: told that they have six months or less to live

708
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: a it's horrible and fear inducing and all those things

709
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: we would expect if you could imagine yourself in that situation,

710
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: But there is like this little positive that we usually

711
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: don't think about. You're almost given permission to drop all

712
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: the bs that society has put on you. You're able

713
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: to drop worries about how am I going to make money?

714
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: And you're worried about You're able to just drop all

715
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: these basic things that have shrouded your clear vision of

716
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: what you want, and it gives you the freedom to

717
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: finally look at your life and say, what truly is

718
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: important to me? Which are those relationships that means something?

719
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: Which of those bucket list items or achievements or experiences

720
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: should I look at over the next six months because

721
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 1: they were really salient and I didn't chase them. It's

722
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: such a powerful thing to see that freedom the dying have,

723
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: and I really started questioning in my own life as

724
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: well as the people who I was talking to on

725
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: my podcast. It's like, how do we give you that

726
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: sense of freedom to look at your life clear eyed

727
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: today when you're thirty or forty or fifty, certainly way

728
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: before you're on your deathbed, and start making actual changes now,

729
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: actionable changes that can bring you some of that sense

730
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 1: of meaning and purpose today so that you'll have less

731
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: regrets when you get to your deathbed. Yeah, you call

732
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: it the gift of mortality, which I thought was a

733
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: really powerful way to phrase it, but you you say

734
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: that it's even more powerful in the hands of people

735
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: who aren't imminently facing death. Right, So, how do we

736
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: get a sense of that ultimate future reality and how

737
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 1: allowed that to have deeper, more meaningful impact on maybe

738
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: how we're approaching our finances, our lives, like the people

739
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: we love, our relations chips, you know, with with the

740
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: end in mind, how do we get a visceral understanding

741
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: um and and so that we can let it impact us.

742
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: So this is the difficult part. This is where we

743
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: really get into the work of figuring out what our

744
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: purpose and identity are and what are those connections in

745
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: our life that are important to us. You know, for

746
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: me it was seeing the dying, and so I've translated

747
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: that for the rest of us. How do you figure

748
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: out your purpose? Well, imagine you laying on your deathbed

749
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: and bemoaning your life and saying, I really regret that

750
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 1: I never had the energy, courage, or time to whatever

751
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: comes next is a huge part of your purpose. So

752
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: I invite people to do this life review process, to

753
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: ask themselves specifically this question and visualize now what that

754
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: would feel like. We've heard it before. People say, write

755
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: your own eulogy, right, same idea, be aspirational. Think about

756
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: what would I really be said, Add that I didn't try,

757
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: that I didn't have the courage or energy to go

758
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: after and start thinking about those things today. And so

759
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: that's the life review process that I really think we

760
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: should be doing on a regular basis. After that, you

761
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: really have to start thinking about identity. Who am I?

762
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: And have you ever done this? Have either you guys

763
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: ever sat in the room and asked yourself I am

764
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: and filled in the blank and iterated on it and

765
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 1: done it many many times like because I know when

766
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: I do the first thing I came up in my

767
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: mind as I said, I am a doctor. And it's

768
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: so funny because I actually identify with that less than ever,

769
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: but it's still that kind of personal identity that I

770
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: held on too. When I started really asking myself who

771
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: I am, I had to ask myself a question over

772
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: and over again before I really got to some of

773
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: the deeper answers. Interesting, No, I've never done that, but

774
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: it sounds like, yeah, something something I would like to try,

775
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: because I don't what one of the things that you

776
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: mentioned just now, you use the word courage, and I

777
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: feel like courage is often the thing, or a lack

778
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: of courage from attempting some of those things that maybe

779
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: sound good or sound appealing or we wish that our

780
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 1: better selves would tackle. But it's it's often a lack

781
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: of it's not a lack of financial resources. It's it's

782
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: not even a lack of ability. It's it's a it's

783
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: an inability to summon the courage to to do the

784
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: difficult thing. It seems too daunting. Um And I don't know,

785
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: and that's at least from personal experience. I think. I

786
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: think it's true. You know, it's funny too. We always

787
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: fear and struggle with the courage to do those things

788
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: that are most important to us. And part of the

789
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: reasons is we're worried that we're going to fail. And

790
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm reminded of a patient that I took care of

791
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: name Ernesto, and his dream was the climb Mount Everest,

792
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,959
Speaker 1: And in his twenties, he actually took six months off

793
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: and attempted to make this climb. Thank goodness because he

794
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: actually died in his forties of leukemia, so he didn't

795
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: put off something that was deeply important to him. But

796
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: the interesting thing about Ernesto is he would tell these

797
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: stories to all of us hospice people with a big

798
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: smile on his face about the time he tried to

799
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: climb Mount Everest. Guess what, he didn't succeed, Like the

800
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: weather changed and he didn't make it. I think he

801
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: made it less than halfway up. But on his deathbed

802
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: he could say, this was important to me, and man,

803
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: I got up there and did it, and so yeah,

804
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: I didn't succeed, but at least I had the courage

805
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: to try. So it's it's not whether you succeed or fail.

806
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: What really people regret is that they didn't have the

807
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: courage to try something that was really important to them.

808
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: Yea or uh. In my case, sometimes I'm just too

809
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: dang cheap and I'm unwilling to pay the money to

810
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: do the things that I say I value, and it

811
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 1: takes overcoming that which I guess maybe in and of itself.

812
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: There there takes a degree of courage in order to

813
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: say I have enough in order to do whatever small,

814
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, seemingly inexpensive thing. But I like those questions

815
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: that you presented their doc um or Jordan's. On a

816
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: practical note, you know you kind of talk about the

817
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: need for an ice fine or can you talk about this,

818
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: talk about why this is so necessary for folks? Sure,

819
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: it's in an in case of emergency binder especially. We

820
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: see this in the financial independence movement. Usually you have

821
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,919
Speaker 1: one spouse or family member who is all into this right,

822
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: and so they're in charge of investments, they're in charge

823
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: of life insurance, they're in charge of all the passwords

824
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: and all the payments, and we tend to forget that,

825
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: just like my father, that one person could die young

826
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: and unexpectedly, and they could leave a mess for the

827
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: rest of their family who know nothing about the finances

828
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: and who know nothing about the passwords, etcetera. So there's

829
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: something called an ICE binder, and in case of emergency binder,

830
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: it's something you can fill out which pretty much helps

831
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: you put all the salient financial and social information down

832
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: so that God forbid something would happen to you. Your

833
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: family has access to everything they need. There are a

834
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: number of commercially available templates, and this has real life consequences.

835
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: I've seen an umber of patients who have died and

836
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: no one knew the code to the safe, and they

837
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: had expensive they had money and jewelry and coins, and

838
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: they bought this thousands and thousands of dollars safe to

839
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: protect their belongings, and they died suddenly and then no

840
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: one had access. Another interesting stories, I had a patient

841
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: who got married, had a kid, her husband died unexpectedly,

842
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: and then when they went to look into his life insurance,

843
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 1: found out that the beneficiary was a past girlfriend. It

844
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: had been a number of years ago and he had

845
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: never changed the beneficiary. Thank thank god, this person actually

846
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: handed it over to her. But if they had had

847
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 1: an ICE finder, if they had had an ice binder,

848
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: they would have been filling all this out and asked

849
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: you about beneficiaries. They probably would have gotten smart to

850
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: the fact that they had to change that beneficiary if

851
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: they had been doing something like that codifying all this

852
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: important financial information. So it's just really important to do

853
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: and it can save our loved ones a lot of stress. Yeah,

854
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: all right, I like that. And so last question I

855
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: want to ask you Doc. You uh, you are a

856
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: prolific writer, prolific content creator, and I think what that

857
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: reflects is that you have you find a lot of

858
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: meaning in that, right. I think you your your podcast

859
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: is more than anything a labor of love. It's something

860
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: that you just you thoroughly enjoy, like it comes across

861
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: when I listened. Um. And so for you, I think

862
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: I recently read that you're planning on maybe stepping back

863
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: on how much you're writing. So I want to know, like,

864
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: what has a consistent writing practice given you and why

865
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: are you planning maybe to cut back on that a

866
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: little bit. So writing was the first thing I did

867
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen when I really started feeling

868
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: depressed and down because I realized as financially independent and

869
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with it. Eventually, I started

870
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: my own blog and started writing every day, and that

871
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: almost became my online diary, my accountability partner where I

872
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,479
Speaker 1: could work through what was going on in my mind

873
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: about my the and it eventually helped me take actions.

874
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: So writing, I think is essential for me to be healthy,

875
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: and I think in a sense it's a meditation on

876
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: what's happening in my life and what are my stressors.

877
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: I found as I've gotten farther, and this may be

878
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: the issue with podcasting, is I spend less time writing

879
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: and more time podcasting because I think it's a different

880
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: form of creation. And what I really love about podcasting,

881
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: especially since I often do interviews, is that it's really collaborative.

882
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: And so when I started pulling away from work as

883
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: a doctor, I had to start filling my time with

884
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: things that had meaning and purpose. For me. It was

885
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: being a communicator, which included things like public speaking, writing,

886
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: and podcasting. But the friction happens to be less with podcasting,

887
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: and again there's more sense of connection, and that's why

888
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: I think I moved more in that direction. Gosh, that

889
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, going back to the hierarchy of needs

890
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: and the things that we find ourselves needing and valuing,

891
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: and maybe as you do sti about from work, you're

892
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: gonna find yourself not collaborating with other folks as much,

893
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: and so finding the different ways to be able to,

894
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, scratch that social itch a little bit.

895
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: That's really important, especially as folks enter into stages of

896
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: financial independence in their lives. But Jordan's this has been

897
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: a really enjoyable conversation. We always enjoy sitting down with

898
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: you and chatting catching up. But where can folks learn

899
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: about your book taking Stock and when is it going

900
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: to publish? So the easiest way to go about that

901
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: is go to Jordan grummit dot com. That's j O

902
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: R d N g r u m et dot com.

903
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: There you can find out everything about the book, as

904
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: well as you can learn about my other satellite projects.

905
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: There's really three main ones. One is the podcast Earn

906
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,959
Speaker 1: an invest you can find the link there. The other

907
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: is my financial blog Diverse five, which is where I

908
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: really originally started writing about all these personal finance concepts.

909
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: And the last is my medical blog. I started writing

910
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: about medicine in about two thousand five and consistently blogged

911
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: about medicine until two thousand and seventeen or eighteen or

912
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 1: so before I out of my financial blogs. So there's

913
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: a link to that too, just talks about medicine in life.

914
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 1: If you just want to skip to the podcast, earn

915
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: and invest dot com. But any of those ways are

916
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: good ways to reach me, and you'll see a link

917
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: to the book pretty much anywhere you go with my

918
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: name on it. Like I said, you're prolific. Got a

919
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: lot of irons in the fire, and we'll put a

920
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: link to all those in our show notes at how

921
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: money dot com. So, Jordan, thank you so much for

922
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: joining us man. We really appreciate it. Thanks. It's been

923
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 1: a pleasure as always, and it is always a pleasure

924
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: to talk with Jordan's Joel. What were your thoughts from

925
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: today's episode with Jordan Grummitt's big takeaway that it was

926
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: there was a lot that we talked about, a lot,

927
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: a lot of deeper stuff that's you know, we we

928
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: talked about occasionally here on the show, but I'm glad

929
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: we were able to dedicate an entire episode to end

930
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: of life stuff. Yes, agreed, and it thinks that matter

931
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: one of those things that I think to live life

932
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 1: to the fullest. You have to think about the end,

933
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: and so it's an important thing to wrestle with and

934
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: a lot of us like to put it off, not

935
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: engage with that. And me, I'll be honest, like I

936
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: have not had fortunately many brushes with death. Um, I've

937
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: had a close friend die when I was in my

938
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: early twenties, but for the most part I have I've

939
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: been to like very few funerals, and so I I actually,

940
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: actually literally I don't have any friends who have ever died. Uh,

941
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: And so I mean, I feel like you didn't have

942
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: more exposure to you know that than I have. But

943
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: like I do feel like it's going to kind of

944
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: be a an eye opening period of time whenever that

945
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, when that happens, because it's going to happen,

946
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: of course, and I try to personally like engage with

947
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: it through books, through movies, even like through other firstand

948
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 1: experiences of people that have dealt with it, and because

949
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: that's how I've mostly interacted with death. I feel like

950
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: Jordan's book was one that I was excited to read

951
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: and didn't let down. But yeah, my big takeaway, I

952
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: think was when he was talking about non budgeting and

953
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: I think that is for people who are incredibly good

954
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: with their finances and don't like the drudgery of budgeting,

955
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: it's possible. But what he said was you have to

956
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: set up rules in order to make life easier. And

957
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: so yeah, you can't just, uh for sake, budgeting without

958
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: coming up with maybe these other ways that are going

959
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: to ensure that you meet your financial goals and ensure

960
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: that you're saving and investing enough as well as sending

961
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: enough aside to enjoy the things you say you enjoy.

962
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: So I like that he kind of did both of

963
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: those things. But if you take that route, I think

964
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: it's possible to not have to have a budget and

965
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: still be able to like live a fulfilling personal life

966
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 1: and have a successful financial life. Yeah, you just gotta

967
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: have those systems in place. And and that's definitely something

968
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: that he did. And you chose that one because that's

969
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: basically how you live life. If you're looking for some

970
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: of that, of that someone else specifications, sign off and

971
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: say that it's okay. And so yeah, now that um

972
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: I have a doctor on my side, I feel that

973
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: my doctor said that this is he prescribed a non

974
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: budget mat Okay, um my big takeaway is gonna be

975
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 1: when he was just like towards the end there Essentially

976
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: a lot of what this episode talked about was where

977
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: we're all about trying to find that balance between living

978
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 1: life now right like that Yolo uh approach to life,

979
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: but also like where we're trying to be smart with

980
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: our money, where we are trying to set ourselves up

981
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: for the future and be financially independent uh. And what

982
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: he was talking about was that there should be some

983
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: of these questions that we ask ourselves, not at the

984
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: end of our life, but to ask them now, where

985
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: we should be questioning like what are our dreams? Um

986
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, like ask yourself like if I like I

987
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 1: always wish I had time to do X and fill

988
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: in the blank. You're basically pre writing and obituary for yourself,

989
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: and you want to make sure that you're able to

990
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: include the things that truly matter to you. I love

991
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: what he talked about with the guy Everest guy. Oh

992
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: my gosh, it's funny because actually just met someone recently

993
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: who climbed Everest, who summited. He's one of the first,

994
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: I think um Us African Americans to summit Everest and

995
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: coolest dude so cool to hear a story he's trying

996
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: to become the first Black American to summit the tallest

997
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: seven peaks on or the tallest peak on each continent.

998
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: So I don't know, man, that was That was cooled,

999
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: That was really cool. But what the reason he brought

1000
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: that story up was that because it's about attempting to

1001
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 1: do things right. It's about, like you were saying, having

1002
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: the courage to do things, not that necessarily to get

1003
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: things perfect, but to make sure that you are actually

1004
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 1: giving it, giving it a go. Um. But that's what

1005
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: you kick yourself for in the end, is if you're

1006
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: like having not attempted it. There was something I wanted

1007
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: to do and I didn't even give it a shot.

1008
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: Exactly like the fact that that guy had a smile

1009
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: on his face as he's talking about how he failed

1010
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: at something like you would think, oh, yeah, he's gonna

1011
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: be bummed that he didn't actually summit it. It's like, no,

1012
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: he he knew that he gave it his all. He

1013
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: knew that he gave it a good shot. But Jordan

1014
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: was talking about how going through this life review process regularly,

1015
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't think it's something that you

1016
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 1: should think about like weekly, but at different stages of life,

1017
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: maybe even annually at the end of the year. That

1018
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 1: can be a part of your your personal finance wrap

1019
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: up where you're not just looking at your net worth

1020
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: and how you spent your money that year, but then

1021
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: to actually ask yourself some of these life actualization questions,

1022
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: like you know, who am I? What am I doing

1023
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: with my life? And am I happy? Those questions? Who

1024
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: am I? Yeah, I think we're this close to taking

1025
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,479
Speaker 1: it that direction during the interview, but I'm I'm glad

1026
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: we didn't trying to, you know, not get too immature

1027
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: with and when you have a doctor on the show,

1028
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: but exactly. But all right, let's introduce. Let folx know

1029
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: what beer we were drinking this episode. This one was

1030
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: an American sour ale. It was called Indolence. This was Joel.

1031
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 1: This was a delicious beer or beverage, I should say,

1032
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 1: because it says a malt beverage with natural favors. And

1033
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is an actual beer, but

1034
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: had passion fruit, lactose vanilla. What your thoughts on this one?

1035
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: Close enough? They're like cousins, right, So I thought it

1036
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: was good. Yeah, I still enjoyed it. I thought it

1037
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: was good too, And of course it's called Indolence, but

1038
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: probably the difficult name is because the name of the

1039
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: brewery is pretentious barrel house, so they're coming up with

1040
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: pretentious names for their beers, which I'm fine with. But yeah,

1041
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: this one was like fruity, more fruity than tart, but

1042
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: also had a nice balance of of sourness going along

1043
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: with the fruit. And then there was like some lactose

1044
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: in vanilla, which gave it like a sweet finish. So

1045
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 1: I thought it was like a really interesting balance of

1046
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 1: kind of all those things. I thought it was a

1047
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 1: great some nice flavors. It was really aggressive, the acid

1048
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: level was nice and high. I am always looking for that, especially,

1049
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: you know, when you have some of these different barrel

1050
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: aged beers. It's always enjoyable to have something that feels

1051
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: like it's got a little bit of bite. And I'm

1052
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: glad that you and I got to enjoy this one today.

1053
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: We highly recommend it. Listeners can find a picture of

1054
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: this beer, as well as our show notes up on

1055
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 1: our website at how to money dot com. So until

1056
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,