Speaker 1: Welcome to Talking Politics.
Speaker 2: I'm your host Sessi Cupp, and we have a stellar
Speaker 2: guest for you today. That's a hint. Really excited to
Speaker 2: have them on. We're old friends. That's all you get
Speaker 2: to know for now. But before that, well, let's talk
Speaker 2: about what happened Wednesday night of this week. Two historic
Speaker 2: things happened almost simultaneously. First, four courageous astronauts successfully lifted
Speaker 2: off from Launch Complex thirty nine B at Kennedy Space
Speaker 2: Center aboard Artemis two, which will attempt the first lunar
Speaker 2: fly by in more than.
Speaker 1: Fifty years now.
Speaker 2: I'm a space nerd, as many of you know, watching
Speaker 2: launches like this is something I always look forward to,
Speaker 2: and I've really been looking forward to this launch, which
Speaker 2: has been years in the making. In fact, I'm in
Speaker 2: my Artemis sweatshirt my NASA hat. These were sent to
Speaker 2: me years ago as this program was being built. So
Speaker 2: I've been waiting for this for a while now. And
Speaker 2: the launch was was a stunning site. When that turned out,
Speaker 2: more than three million people just to watch the official
Speaker 2: NASA launch broadcast alone, Okay, and for me and I'm
Speaker 2: sure a lot of Americans, it recalled up a nostalgia
Speaker 2: for the days of Apollo, which you know, excited and
Speaker 2: inspired so many Americans, and for just a moment it
Speaker 2: stirred up, you know, a kind of patriotism and hope
Speaker 2: that has felt hard to come by in recent months. Now,
Speaker 2: in a parallel universe or on a different timeline, this
Speaker 2: would have been the perfect moment for the President of
Speaker 2: the United States, whose space program is responsible for this
Speaker 2: incredible feed of innovation, to address the nation with a
Speaker 2: soaring speech marking the moment right, we could have seen
Speaker 2: the kind of speech that John F. Kennedy gave in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two, inspiring an anxious nation to believe in
Speaker 2: possibility and progress amidst a backdrop of Cold War fears.
Speaker 2: But that is not I don't have to tell you
Speaker 2: the universe or timeline we're living in. America is at war,
Speaker 2: and we don't really know why. President Donald Trump finally
Speaker 2: delivered his first national address more than a month into
Speaker 2: this self proclaimed and unauthorized excursion into Iran, an incursion
Speaker 2: in fact that's resulted in numerous US casualties. It strangled
Speaker 2: the free flow of oil and goods. It's created turmoil
Speaker 2: in the markets and world economies, and it's created a
Speaker 2: fear among those of us in the US and among
Speaker 2: our allies that our actions are going to have dangerous
Speaker 2: ripple effects in the region and here at home for
Speaker 2: months and possibly even years. But a speech that was meant,
Speaker 2: I think to satisfy the concerns of a skeptical public,
Speaker 2: you know, two thirds of which disapproves of Trump's war
Speaker 2: and doesn't believe he has a clear plan.
Speaker 1: I think it did the opposite.
Speaker 2: In fact, I think it exposed just how poorly Trump
Speaker 2: has thought this out.
Speaker 1: Take a listen.
Speaker 3: As we speak this evening, it's been just one month
Speaker 3: since the United States military began Operation Epic Fury, targeting
Speaker 3: the world's number one state sponsor of Terra Iran. In
Speaker 3: these past four weeks, our armed forces have delivered swift, decisive,
Speaker 3: overwhelming victories on the battlefield, victories like few people have
Speaker 3: ever seen before. Tonight, Iran's navy is gone, their air
Speaker 3: forces in ruins, Their leaders, most of them terrorist regime
Speaker 3: they led, are now dead, their command and control of
Speaker 3: the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps being decimated as we speak.
Speaker 3: Their ability to launch missiles and drones is dramatically curtailed,
Speaker 3: and their weapons, factories and rocket launchers are being blown
Speaker 3: to pieces, very few of them left. Never in the
Speaker 3: history of warfare has an enemy suffered such clear and devastating,
Speaker 3: large scale losses in a matter of weeks. Our enemies
Speaker 3: are losing in America, as it has been for five
Speaker 3: years under my presidency, is winning, and now winning bigger
Speaker 3: than ever before.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: That certainly makes it sound like mission accomplished.
Speaker 1: Right, we won, doesn't it?
Speaker 2: But despite as raw raw declarations of victory and decimation,
Speaker 2: no one with even a cursory knowledge of Iran's history
Speaker 2: and capabilities could believe that this reckless, aimless war of
Speaker 2: attrition is anywhere close to being over. Offering no real
Speaker 2: plans to recover the roughly one thousand pounds of highly
Speaker 2: enriched uranium buried in the rubble at Natansen Ifshan, Offering
Speaker 2: no real plans to liberate the people of Iran from
Speaker 2: a regime that's thus far no different from the last one,
Speaker 2: Offering no real plans to reopen the Strait of Hormuz
Speaker 2: and the world's free flow.
Speaker 1: Of oil and goods.
Speaker 2: Trump blustered and boasted and bulked, all while wagging an
Speaker 2: indignant finger at our allies for not jumping into this
Speaker 2: ill advised quagmire with us. Yeah, how dare they? How
Speaker 2: dare they not endeavor down this folly of a road.
Speaker 2: And here's what he told our allies to do. Speaking
Speaker 2: of about the oil and the goods that they can't
Speaker 2: access due to Iran's closure of the Strait of Hormuz,
Speaker 2: to listen.
Speaker 3: The countries of the world that do receive oil through
Speaker 3: the Hormone Strait must take care of that passage. They
Speaker 3: must cherish it. They must grab it and cherish it.
Speaker 3: They can do it easily. We will be helpful, but
Speaker 3: they should take the lead in protecting the oil that
Speaker 3: they so desperately depend on. So to those countries that
Speaker 3: can't get fuel, many of which refuse to get involved
Speaker 3: in the decapitation of Iran, we had to do it ourselves.
Speaker 3: I have a suggestion. Number one, buy oil from the
Speaker 3: United States of America. We have plenty, we have so much.
Speaker 3: And number two, build up some delayed courage. Should have
Speaker 3: done it before, should have done it with us, as
Speaker 3: we asked. Go to the strait and just take it,
Speaker 3: protect it, use it for yourselves. Iran has been essentially decimated.
Speaker 3: The hard part is done.
Speaker 2: Be easy, Yeah, to go go in, take it. Get
Speaker 2: also get into a war. That is not how any
Speaker 2: of this works. Of course, the hard part is not done.
Speaker 2: Iran can keep the straight closed as long as it wants.
Speaker 2: Their military is not completely decimated, and closing the Strait
Speaker 2: of Hermos impacts the price of oil.
Speaker 1: For everyone, including us.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if we're getting our oil from Venezuela
Speaker 2: or Alaska.
Speaker 1: The prices are set globally, so.
Speaker 2: If the rest of the world can't get oil through
Speaker 2: the Strait of Horror moves, everyone's oil prices go up.
Speaker 2: Trump doesn't either get that or care. I don't know
Speaker 2: which one, but those are facts. He just wants to
Speaker 2: will it into existence that he's won this war.
Speaker 1: He's not. He's not even close. I don't take any
Speaker 1: pride in saying that. But I've covered war for a
Speaker 1: really long time, and I've talked to people.
Speaker 2: Who are war analysts and who drew up the war
Speaker 2: plans for a war with Iran.
Speaker 1: I'm listening to them. I wish he would, but I
Speaker 1: am listening to them, and.
Speaker 2: They are saying, we're nowhere near being done with this
Speaker 2: because we don't just get to snap our fingers and
Speaker 2: open the straight We don't get to snap our fingers and.
Speaker 1: Pull out of this war.
Speaker 2: There's another actor on the other side, and Iran has
Speaker 2: has been preparing for this. Iran is ready for this.
Speaker 2: Let me, in fact, tell you a little story about Iran.
Speaker 2: Back in nineteen eighty there was a war between Iran
Speaker 2: and Iraq, the Iran Iraq War, and eight days in
Speaker 2: Iraq offered to Iran a ceasefire. Iran rejected that ceasefire.
Speaker 2: Iraq would offer six more ceasefires. They were all rejected.
Speaker 2: That war lasted eight years. It took eight years to
Speaker 2: decimate Iran's economy and military, to degrade their economy and
Speaker 2: military to the point where it was ready to surrender.
Speaker 2: And only then because Iraq was threatening to do chemical
Speaker 2: weapons attacks. Eight years it prolonged a war that Iraq
Speaker 2: offered to stop after eight days. Let that be a
Speaker 2: warning to Trump in the United States. You don't just
Speaker 2: get to tell Iran we're done here. But in his
Speaker 2: attempt to brag about how short this war has lasted,
Speaker 2: again it's not over. He compared it to other lengthy conflicts.
Speaker 2: In this speech, he compared it to Vietnam. He compared
Speaker 2: it to the Iraq War. Well, I got to be honest,
Speaker 2: that only reminded Americans how costly and consuming this one
Speaker 2: is likely to be.
Speaker 1: Take a listen.
Speaker 3: It's very important that we keep this conflict in perspective.
Speaker 3: American involvement in World War One lasted one year, seven
Speaker 3: months and five days. World War two lasted for three years,
Speaker 3: eight months and twenty five days. The Korean War lasted
Speaker 3: for three years, one month and two days. The Vietnam
Speaker 3: War lasted for nineteen years, five months and twenty nine days.
Speaker 3: Iraq went on for eight years, eight months and twenty
Speaker 3: eight days. We are in this military operation, so powerful,
Speaker 3: so brilliant, against one of the most powerful countries, for
Speaker 3: thirty two days.
Speaker 2: I don't think that had the effect he wanted that
Speaker 2: to have with his dramatic thirty two day drop.
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 2: I don't think that did what he thought that was doing.
Speaker 2: All that did was remind us there has not been
Speaker 2: a war that's been short. There certainly hasn't been a
Speaker 2: war with Iran that's been short. We don't tend to
Speaker 2: do short wars for whatever reason. And war is really messy,
Speaker 2: and the idea that this guy, that Donald Trump, who
Speaker 2: knows nothing about war, this guy is going to be
Speaker 2: the one to get us in and out real quick,
Speaker 2: in and out, little excursion. Come on, no one believes
Speaker 2: that it's important to note. I think that this speech
Speaker 2: is also coming against the backdrop of Trump's threats to
Speaker 2: withdraw from NATO. NATO is the post World War two
Speaker 2: treaty that's kept Soviet and other tyrant states from attacking
Speaker 2: the Western Alliance for more than seventy years now. Trump
Speaker 2: might not understand its importance, but the world does, and
Speaker 2: it's collectively rebuking his reckless efforts to weaken the body
Speaker 2: that is crucial for in shuring our own national security
Speaker 2: and stability and that of Europe. And it's so important
Speaker 2: that even Mitch McConnell came out this week to sign
Speaker 2: a letter with Democrats telling everyone how important it is
Speaker 2: that America remain in NATO. And look, the good news
Speaker 2: is Trump doesn't get to unilaterally decide to pull out
Speaker 2: of NATO. Fun fact, that's because Marco Rubio, current Secretary
Speaker 2: of State, co sponsored to bill in twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: that made it illegal for a president a commander in
Speaker 2: chief to pull out of NATO without congressional support. So
Speaker 2: Trump can thank his own secretary of State for making
Speaker 2: what he wants to do impossible. But that said, Trump
Speaker 2: can still inflict a lot of pain, a lot of
Speaker 2: pain on NATO, and make Vladimir Putin's life a lot
Speaker 2: easier in the process. Listen, times feel fraud. There's no
Speaker 2: question about it. We've got a correct to ignorant, self motivated,
Speaker 2: wanna be dictator prosecuting an ill advised war, using American
Speaker 2: blood and treasure to do it, all while threatening to
Speaker 2: isolate our nation and endanger others even further. He's wreaking
Speaker 2: economic havoc at home and across the globe, and it
Speaker 2: feels like without any care or consideration. And like I said,
Speaker 2: he's just giving Russia everything it's been asking for. And
Speaker 2: here's the thing I want I want to tell you,
Speaker 2: if we look at this mess the Trump's created, this
Speaker 2: economic mess, this military mess, this mess on the global stage,
Speaker 2: if we look at this mess that he's created too
Speaker 2: closely or for too long, it feels impossible to have
Speaker 2: hope for a better tomorrow. And that's why I think
Speaker 2: it's so important now more than ever, to look up
Speaker 2: to look up towards the stars, where actual heroes are
Speaker 2: leading the way. Right now as we speak, we are
Speaker 2: all cheering you on Artemis too. Okay, don't go anywhere
Speaker 2: more on all of this with a great guest when
Speaker 2: we return. Welcome back to talking politics. I want to
Speaker 2: get to our fantastic guest.
Speaker 1: I told him.
Speaker 2: Yesterday when I was booking him that he was the
Speaker 2: perfect guest for this conversation, and I feel so lucky
Speaker 2: and I'm proud of my booking skills that we got
Speaker 2: him today. Douglas Brinkley is an historian and an author.
Speaker 2: He's a history professor at Rice University. Contributor to Vanity Fair.
Speaker 2: He's written so many books about presidents and historical figures
Speaker 2: and writers, the Nixon Tapes to the Reagan Diaries. But
Speaker 2: most importantly for us today, he wrote American Moonshot JFK
Speaker 2: and The Great Space Race.
Speaker 1: Welcome, Doug Brinkley, Thank.
Speaker 4: You so much for having me. I know we both
Speaker 4: shared a deep admiration for NASA in the nineteen sixties
Speaker 4: and seventies and carries over to Artemis today.
Speaker 2: We are both space nerds, and I think I've told
Speaker 2: you this, Doug, but I don't know. Back in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 2: I was asked to moderate a panel of women's space
Speaker 2: scientists at the JFK Library for the fiftieth anniversary of
Speaker 2: the Moon landing.
Speaker 1: What an incredible thrill?
Speaker 4: I mean, well, no question for you. What an incredible
Speaker 4: though must have blown your mind?
Speaker 1: It blew my mind.
Speaker 4: And did you get to get to know them personally
Speaker 4: any and.
Speaker 2: Have any idea we became I became friendly with several
Speaker 2: of these incredible women, all of whom have asteroids named
Speaker 2: after them, which is great fun, and I subsequently had
Speaker 2: them on some of my CNN shows. But I've been
Speaker 2: excited for Artemis two for years. I'm wearing my Artemis
Speaker 2: sweatshirt that they sent me several years ago. Set the
Speaker 2: stage for how important this moment is in space exploration.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's a gigantic moment. First of all, the fact
Speaker 4: that you were dealing with the issue of women in space.
Speaker 4: We're having our first woman astronaut. That was a big deal.
Speaker 4: In the early nineteen sixties, we had a Mercury thirteen project,
Speaker 4: thirteen women that were trained in New Mexico by a
Speaker 4: doctor Lovelace, and they did all the tests that you
Speaker 4: might see in the movie or The Right Stuff or
Speaker 4: the book The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe. I mean
Speaker 4: all this arduous physical challenges, examinations, efforts to be a
Speaker 4: female astronaut, and all of them got past and yet
Speaker 4: in fact most did better than the Mercury Gemini astronaut
Speaker 4: that we chose. But alas it was decided there would
Speaker 4: be no woman allowed. So unfortunately Russia beat us in
Speaker 4: that regard having the first woman astronaut in space. So
Speaker 4: I've been particularly glad in the twenty first century to
Speaker 4: see space and exploration being wide open to women, and
Speaker 4: women going into space engineering, and women that are from
Speaker 4: a young age decided I could do it. I want
Speaker 4: to be an astronaut, and lo and behold with Artemis,
Speaker 4: we're getting a chance to see that, and hopefully by
Speaker 4: twenty twenty eight we will be able to put our
Speaker 4: first woman astronaut on the Moon, which will be just
Speaker 4: another milestone achievement in US space exploration in the twentieth
Speaker 4: and twenty first centuries.
Speaker 1: It will be an incredible moment.
Speaker 2: Do you think that this will have the impact on
Speaker 2: future generations the way that Apollo Apollo did?
Speaker 4: That is the key question. I was thinking of that
Speaker 4: myself last evening, probably not in some regards. When we
Speaker 4: only had three TV channels in the CBS, NBC, ABC,
Speaker 4: this was mandatory watching. And people like broadcaster Walter Cronkite,
Speaker 4: who had had during World War Two was the dean
Speaker 4: of Army aviation and bombing, you know, so he got
Speaker 4: to know all these flight bombers and then he went
Speaker 4: His hometown was Houston, and he had developed his love
Speaker 4: of space, so he was a maestro of turning the
Speaker 4: space missions into television drama. But we saw the precipitous
Speaker 4: drop after Apollo eleven, after Neil Armstrong and Buzz Alderman
Speaker 4: walked on the Moon and the whole world was watching.
Speaker 4: After Paul eleven, all the other Apollo started getting less
Speaker 4: and less, you know, ratings to the point where you
Speaker 4: know that we were trying to do things and asked
Speaker 4: a grab attention, like let's golf on the moon and
Speaker 4: people watch that. You know, But it's been a while
Speaker 4: since our last astronaut's been on the moon, and Artemis
Speaker 4: is doing things that paula program couldn't dream of with
Speaker 4: its flight course right now in preparation for twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 4: So I'm hoping a crescendo will build and this could
Speaker 4: become something that pulls our country together, like a NASA
Speaker 4: in the Moonshot. But the singer Bob Dylan has a
Speaker 4: line in one of his songs called you can always
Speaker 4: go back, but you can't go back all the way,
Speaker 4: and I interfer that always to mean something like this
Speaker 4: was a high water mark, the Moonshot, going to the
Speaker 4: Moon of achievement. I don't know of going back to
Speaker 4: the Moon and any different guys will still carry quite
Speaker 4: the same drama. But it will for me certainly, and
Speaker 4: I hope it does for a whole new generation because
Speaker 4: the young people in college love space. It's there. I
Speaker 4: teach a class on the you know, nineteen sixties and seventies,
Speaker 4: and nobody wants to hear about Woodstock or the Summer
Speaker 4: of Love. They want to hear about you know, John
Speaker 4: Glenn or Alan Shepard or Pace Race Yeah, Gus Greg,
Speaker 4: Greg Grissom and the Space Race.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I asked one of these NASA women,
Speaker 2: doctor Maria Zuber, at the time, like why go back
Speaker 2: to the Moon, And she said, well, imagine someone coming
Speaker 2: to America for the first time and deciding from whatever
Speaker 2: spot they landed on, they knew everything about America, and
Speaker 2: how crazy that would be because we know how diverse
Speaker 2: in different America is.
Speaker 1: She said, the moon is the same, it looks all
Speaker 1: the same to us. It is not.
Speaker 2: And one, you know, plane is different from one crater
Speaker 2: from one other lunar field.
Speaker 1: And so she's putting it in that context.
Speaker 2: It makes it almost insane that we haven't been back
Speaker 2: much more often than we did in those years following
Speaker 2: Apollo eleven.
Speaker 4: Well, I agree with that. I think some of this
Speaker 4: the you know, the Challenger disaster. You know, the people
Speaker 4: will come beyond cutting budgets. You know, NASA in the
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties it was about four point four percent of
Speaker 4: the annual budget went to NASA for the Moonshot pop
Speaker 4: Project Apollo. Today you get about a third of one
Speaker 4: percent of federal government, you know, of our money for
Speaker 4: these kind of artemis programs because the private sector, as
Speaker 4: you know, has come in in such a big time
Speaker 4: way with you know, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and
Speaker 4: others in that space. But this is showing you NASA
Speaker 4: is still still standing tall, the flags still flying. I mean,
Speaker 4: this is the the the work of a collaboration out
Speaker 4: of the Space Coast UH and working in tandem with
Speaker 4: Rice University or MI T Jeffer Polson.
Speaker 1: Labatory, Yeah, JPL Y.
Speaker 4: Blue Origin and you know, and other private entities. So
Speaker 4: it's a collaborative effort here in a very real way.
Speaker 4: And the fact that we not only have a woman astronaut,
Speaker 4: but our first black American, you know, first person of color,
Speaker 4: that's remarkable. Back in the nineteen sixties, the former CBS
Speaker 4: guru Edward R. Murrow wrote very extensively trying to convince
Speaker 4: John F. Kennedy, for the civil rights sake of it,
Speaker 4: to have one of the astronauts be African American. And
Speaker 4: of course that never materialized. So that's another And we
Speaker 4: are a country that likes first and anything. You're going
Speaker 4: to be hearing a lot in coming years about this
Speaker 4: is the first time this happened. This is the first
Speaker 4: And I did once speak to President Trump after his
Speaker 4: first term about speak going about space, and he loves it.
Speaker 4: You know, he created Space Force, our lagos on that
Speaker 4: on Florida coast, and if you're down there, people like
Speaker 4: to watch, you know, lifts and you know, it's part
Speaker 4: of the culture of Florida. The more he said to
Speaker 4: me about John F. Kennedy that the moonshot was important
Speaker 4: because it was good for the morale of the American people. Sure,
Speaker 4: you know that would and and you know, I feel
Speaker 4: like if this possibly can pull our country together and
Speaker 4: say we we you know, we still got it. It's
Speaker 4: not as overt as us first Soviet Union, who's first
Speaker 4: to the moon in the nineteen sixties, but in a
Speaker 4: in a lesser way, a more covert way. We know
Speaker 4: we're trying to out beat China, you know, to the
Speaker 4: moon and show our predominance in space and particularly anything
Speaker 4: related to the Moon as a possible colony or you know,
Speaker 4: military base or just a place that we conduct scientific research.
Speaker 4: But we want to see an American flag on the Moon,
Speaker 4: not a Chinese flag.
Speaker 2: Well, I invited you on not only because of your
Speaker 2: space enthusiasm, right, but because you are an historian and
Speaker 2: a presidential historian. And last night's launch happened to get
Speaker 2: the backdrop of what feels, I think like to many
Speaker 2: Americans like the polar opposite. No pun intended, this amazing
Speaker 2: feat of innovation and patriotism and excitement and hope and
Speaker 2: possibility against this ominous political moment that we're in with
Speaker 2: a president who addressed a very anxious nation last night,
Speaker 2: I find it to be an incredible juxtaposition. And coming
Speaker 2: from where you are both as a presidential historian and
Speaker 2: space enthusiast, I'm wondering if you could contextualize the artemist
Speaker 2: to launch in the context of what is happening right
Speaker 2: now politically and why maybe we need it so much.
Speaker 4: Well, the artemis to launch should be what everybody's talking about.
Speaker 4: It should be the water cooler, a dialogue of a America.
Speaker 4: But alas it's a very crammed and busy schedule. It's
Speaker 4: the same time you had President Trump talking about the
Speaker 4: war in Iran, which is very unpopular, sixty percent of
Speaker 4: the American public opposed. And there's not a lot of
Speaker 4: clarity of what we're doing at this point. There are
Speaker 4: we sending in troops, are we just doing more more
Speaker 4: you know, bombing missions? Are we pulling out of there?
Speaker 4: What's going to happen in the strait of Homos? And
Speaker 4: that's just so much alone. And then yesterday at the
Speaker 4: Supreme Court, you had President Trump sitting for seventy minutes.
Speaker 4: No president's ever done such a thing listening to birthright
Speaker 4: citizenship arguments, arguments trying to undo the fourteenth Amendment, and
Speaker 4: you know, that would showed that the Justice Court was
Speaker 4: standing up to Trump and caught a lot of people's
Speaker 4: attention that that's very likely going to be shot down
Speaker 4: in June. So with that, those kind of events going
Speaker 4: Artemis to unfortunately took kind of third saddle through the
Speaker 4: news cycle, but I believe that it will increase. And
Speaker 4: particularly as we're leaning into America's to two hundred and
Speaker 4: fiftieth birthday July fourth, we're starting to ask ourselves what
Speaker 4: are we proud of as Americans? Certainly the Constitution, are
Speaker 4: founding documents, Federalist papers, doctor some of Independence, some of
Speaker 4: the Lincoln foundational documents, the Gettysburg Address, Emancipation Proclamation, civil rights,
Speaker 4: you know, but the Moonshot, because the Moonshot is still
Speaker 4: thought of as the great moment where we prove American exceptionalism.
Speaker 4: We were able to take the best and the brightest engineers, scientists,
Speaker 4: computer analysts on down and have a goal hit it
Speaker 4: and watch the world's jaw drop and admiringly up in
Speaker 4: all of us. And so the start, there's a hunger
Speaker 4: for a moonshot. Artemis two could provide that, but we're
Speaker 4: going to have to have put some of our social
Speaker 4: media feeds, give them a diet, and kind of focus
Speaker 4: on the TikTok and incredible engineering feed going on with
Speaker 4: our Artemists two and what it means for the future
Speaker 4: of satellites or for artificial intelligence, or for national security,
Speaker 4: and kind of realize that we still have the ability
Speaker 4: to do missions like Artemis too, which just when you
Speaker 4: think America is becoming an empire depleted.
Speaker 1: It's a really good point. I was also thinking about
Speaker 1: twenty eight.
Speaker 2: We we have an astronaut in the Senate, as you know,
Speaker 2: Mark Kelly, who is thinking about running for president. And
Speaker 2: we've obviously had astronauts go into politics before we had
Speaker 2: you know, John Glenn was in Senate. Jack Sweigert, of
Speaker 2: flight pilot for Apollo thirteen got elected to Congress, died
Speaker 2: before he could take office. But Bill Nelson is another.
Speaker 2: But we've never had an astronaut president. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people, especially kids, look at astronauts still
Speaker 2: as if they're superheroes, right, and certainly role models.
Speaker 1: And you know, after the last few years, we've had.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you think people want a role model
Speaker 2: in the White House again, and who better than an
Speaker 2: astronaut to sort of like get our spirits up again?
Speaker 4: What do you think I like that? I agree, I
Speaker 4: grew up in Perry Spurg, Ohio, and down the road
Speaker 4: for me and Walp a Caneto, Ohio's Neil Armstrong. That's right,
Speaker 4: and admit everything to me, he was my superhero that
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe a local boys down a country road
Speaker 4: or two was the first human to break the shackles
Speaker 4: of planet Earth. I thought when John Kerrey got the
Speaker 4: Democratic nomination in two thousand and four, my limited advice
Speaker 4: was hammering away to pick John Glenn to run with
Speaker 4: Carrie oh instead of picking John Edwards of North Carolina.
Speaker 4: Carrie was looking at Dick get part of Missouri also,
Speaker 4: And I was constantly going to Bob Strum and Mary
Speaker 4: Beth k Hill and Glenn and Glenn Glenn because I
Speaker 4: went to Ohio State undergraduate and everybody loves John Glenn
Speaker 4: in Ohio. He went shopping, they nobody cared whether he's
Speaker 4: a Democratic senator. And I kept getting well, he's not
Speaker 4: getting too old, and I say he's not too old.
Speaker 4: He's a folk figure. They love him and the people
Speaker 4: love him in you know, and the same with Mark Kelly.
Speaker 4: I mean, he probably is underestimated that his abilities to
Speaker 4: perhaps even win the Democratic nomination if he ran. Although
Speaker 4: Arizona is a hard state to know what's going on
Speaker 4: in any way, shape or form right now.
Speaker 2: Well, Arizona loves him, I can tell you. I know
Speaker 2: a lot of folks, don't.
Speaker 1: They love him.
Speaker 4: People love him, and so it's really all to your point.
Speaker 4: We do love our astronauts, just like we love our
Speaker 4: men and women in the armed forces. And some people
Speaker 4: have been hungering for where's our Eisenhower, meaning where's our general?
Speaker 4: People asking Admerald mccraven to run for president or you know,
Speaker 4: why don't we isn't this the moment we need somebody
Speaker 4: from the military, but one of our future leaders very soon,
Speaker 4: very well, maybe somebody coming out of space, meaning an astronaut,
Speaker 4: because they still have a high at least call John
Speaker 4: Q public or whatever. They still have a very high
Speaker 4: threshold in the public's estimation.
Speaker 1: When almost no one does right like heroes out there
Speaker 1: that we can all agree with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, occasional ballplayer and that's about it, you know, and
Speaker 4: then we go into silos. You know, we have personal
Speaker 4: heroes for our own personal interest, but not ones that
Speaker 4: seem to we are able to transport themselves across all
Speaker 4: fifty states.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Before I let you go, we usually do
Speaker 2: an exit poll of questions to our guest. But honestly,
Speaker 2: there's only one question I care about with you. What
Speaker 2: is the best all time ever movie about space?
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a really great one. I have to go
Speaker 4: with first thought, best thought, which is Stanley Kubrick's two
Speaker 4: thousand and one Space Odyssey and why because it haunted me,
Speaker 4: particularly the ending of it and thinking about human's the
Speaker 4: fragility of human life and how it interacts with the
Speaker 4: Solar system, and the way Kubrick manipulated a kind of
Speaker 4: sense of birth to death and renewal in the film
Speaker 4: and some of for that era. It also the score
Speaker 4: and the music, and really it seemed to me like
Speaker 4: a avant garde masterpiece of some kind, and I caught
Speaker 4: it at the right time where it left an indelible impression.
Speaker 4: But I like so many space movies, basically, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: stick with Kubrick.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a wonderful one, but I also have so
Speaker 2: many favorites.
Speaker 1: I think Contact is up there for me.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that would be high. It's an incredible better.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think for better than Kubrick. I'm being
Speaker 4: a little esoteric now with Kubrick, but I always give
Speaker 4: higher marks to people that influenced me when I was younger, you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: But that's a great film, context great.
Speaker 2: I have another one that's maybe controversial because I don't
Speaker 2: think people take it seriously, but Cabricorn one was Oh yeah.
Speaker 4: Long, that's really good. That's really great.
Speaker 2: I guess it was eighties and it looks very eighties,
Speaker 2: like if you go back to watch the effects.
Speaker 1: Are very eighties. But Brolin and Elliott Gould and yes,
Speaker 1: oj even I mean it was.
Speaker 2: It was a great and it's actually a movie for
Speaker 2: today because it was such a conspiracy theory movie, which
Speaker 2: we all seemed to be doing a lot more of.
Speaker 1: So that's another one I loved.
Speaker 4: I liked Apollo thirteen when it came out.
Speaker 1: Well that's a perfect film, yeah, Timmy.
Speaker 4: It was just like a flawless best picture of the year,
Speaker 4: perfect movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got to meet Jim Lovell My parents
Speaker 2: were living in Chicago at the time, and he had
Speaker 2: a restaurant called Levels outside of Chicago and the town
Speaker 2: that they lived in. So when I went to visit them,
Speaker 2: I definitely wanted to go there. And he was known
Speaker 2: to sort of like walk the floor from time to time,
Speaker 2: and so I got to shake his hand, and then
Speaker 2: I got a signed copy of The Lost Moon that
Speaker 2: he wrote, so like a big connection to that movie
Speaker 2: Apaullo thirteen. It was incredible, And I bet for a
Speaker 2: generation like mine might have been one of their first
Speaker 2: introductions to Apollo, right, like they might have known the story,
Speaker 2: but certainly not the story of a ball at thirteen.
Speaker 4: Yes, no, and and there are others. But you made
Speaker 4: me realize, like my my humor mind just kicked into
Speaker 4: if you went to a restaurant and it was like
Speaker 4: buzz Aldron walking around, walking around, but and you know,
Speaker 4: and who knows what he would have say said to you,
Speaker 4: because he was really an unhinged interesting you know gunslinger.
Speaker 4: Imagine you're like talking to him and he either could
Speaker 4: have treated you like your best friend or say get
Speaker 4: out of here, why are you bothering me? You know,
Speaker 4: it's he had such a you know such a curmudgeonally,
Speaker 4: so he's all about if you buzz Aldron Mars Mars
Speaker 4: Mars Yeah, which is a whole other podcast for us
Speaker 4: about Mars exploration.
Speaker 2: So is so is buzz Aldrin because he has said
Speaker 2: some things about the moon.
Speaker 4: That's what I mean. And Buzz says is like HiT's
Speaker 4: the conspiracy bells and it blows up the internet when
Speaker 4: he says these things. Sometimes I think he's playing messing
Speaker 4: with us. Somebody in the room.
Speaker 2: Doug, let's you and I agree he's messing with us,
Speaker 2: because I just messing with us.
Speaker 1: I can't stomach some of the things.
Speaker 4: You live your whole life being tau asked the same
Speaker 4: question over and over again, so you purposely give the
Speaker 4: other totally one eighty contrarian answer.
Speaker 1: I like it. We've decided he's messing with.
Speaker 4: Us, messing with us. We're in unity as you as
Speaker 4: we usually are, but as.
Speaker 2: You reasonally are that Doug Brinkley, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for taking the time for us today.
Speaker 1: You were indeed the perfect guest.
Speaker 2: And I am just so honored that you were here
Speaker 2: today on this day after the Artist Too lunch.
Speaker 4: I'm thrilled to be with you and I really appreciate
Speaker 4: our friendship and you take care of yourself you too.
Speaker 1: Thanks Doug, and thanks to everyone listening. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next week.
Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Network.
Speaker 1: If you want more, check out the other Reason.
Speaker 2: Choice podcasts Spolitics with Jamel Hill and Native Land Pod.
Speaker 2: For Off the Cop, I am your host, Si Cup.
Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Derek Clements. Our executive producers
Speaker 2: are me Si Coup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate
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