1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Talking Politics. 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 2: I'm your host Sessi Cupp, and we have a stellar 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 2: guest for you today. That's a hint. Really excited to 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 2: have them on. We're old friends. That's all you get 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: to know for now. But before that, well, let's talk 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: about what happened Wednesday night of this week. Two historic 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: things happened almost simultaneously. First, four courageous astronauts successfully lifted 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: off from Launch Complex thirty nine B at Kennedy Space 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: Center aboard Artemis two, which will attempt the first lunar 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: fly by in more than. 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: Fifty years now. 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 2: I'm a space nerd, as many of you know, watching 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: launches like this is something I always look forward to, 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 2: and I've really been looking forward to this launch, which 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: has been years in the making. In fact, I'm in 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: my Artemis sweatshirt my NASA hat. These were sent to 17 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: me years ago as this program was being built. So 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: I've been waiting for this for a while now. And 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: the launch was was a stunning site. When that turned out, 20 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: more than three million people just to watch the official 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: NASA launch broadcast alone, Okay, and for me and I'm 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: sure a lot of Americans, it recalled up a nostalgia 23 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: for the days of Apollo, which you know, excited and 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: inspired so many Americans, and for just a moment it 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 2: stirred up, you know, a kind of patriotism and hope 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: that has felt hard to come by in recent months. Now, 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: in a parallel universe or on a different timeline, this 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: would have been the perfect moment for the President of 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: the United States, whose space program is responsible for this 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: incredible feed of innovation, to address the nation with a 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: soaring speech marking the moment right, we could have seen 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: the kind of speech that John F. Kennedy gave in 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two, inspiring an anxious nation to believe in 34 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: possibility and progress amidst a backdrop of Cold War fears. 35 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: But that is not I don't have to tell you 36 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: the universe or timeline we're living in. America is at war, 37 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: and we don't really know why. President Donald Trump finally 38 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: delivered his first national address more than a month into 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: this self proclaimed and unauthorized excursion into Iran, an incursion 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: in fact that's resulted in numerous US casualties. It strangled 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: the free flow of oil and goods. It's created turmoil 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: in the markets and world economies, and it's created a 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: fear among those of us in the US and among 44 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: our allies that our actions are going to have dangerous 45 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: ripple effects in the region and here at home for 46 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: months and possibly even years. But a speech that was meant, 47 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: I think to satisfy the concerns of a skeptical public, 48 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: you know, two thirds of which disapproves of Trump's war 49 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: and doesn't believe he has a clear plan. 50 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: I think it did the opposite. 51 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: In fact, I think it exposed just how poorly Trump 52 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: has thought this out. 53 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: Take a listen. 54 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 3: As we speak this evening, it's been just one month 55 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: since the United States military began Operation Epic Fury, targeting 56 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: the world's number one state sponsor of Terra Iran. In 57 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: these past four weeks, our armed forces have delivered swift, decisive, 58 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: overwhelming victories on the battlefield, victories like few people have 59 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: ever seen before. Tonight, Iran's navy is gone, their air 60 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: forces in ruins, Their leaders, most of them terrorist regime 61 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: they led, are now dead, their command and control of 62 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps being decimated as we speak. 63 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: Their ability to launch missiles and drones is dramatically curtailed, 64 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 3: and their weapons, factories and rocket launchers are being blown 65 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: to pieces, very few of them left. Never in the 66 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: history of warfare has an enemy suffered such clear and devastating, 67 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 3: large scale losses in a matter of weeks. Our enemies 68 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: are losing in America, as it has been for five 69 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: years under my presidency, is winning, and now winning bigger 70 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 3: than ever before. 71 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: Well. 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: That certainly makes it sound like mission accomplished. 73 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: Right, we won, doesn't it? 74 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: But despite as raw raw declarations of victory and decimation, 75 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,559 Speaker 2: no one with even a cursory knowledge of Iran's history 76 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: and capabilities could believe that this reckless, aimless war of 77 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: attrition is anywhere close to being over. Offering no real 78 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: plans to recover the roughly one thousand pounds of highly 79 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: enriched uranium buried in the rubble at Natansen Ifshan, Offering 80 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: no real plans to liberate the people of Iran from 81 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: a regime that's thus far no different from the last one, 82 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 2: Offering no real plans to reopen the Strait of Hormuz 83 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 2: and the world's free flow. 84 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: Of oil and goods. 85 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: Trump blustered and boasted and bulked, all while wagging an 86 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 2: indignant finger at our allies for not jumping into this 87 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: ill advised quagmire with us. Yeah, how dare they? How 88 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: dare they not endeavor down this folly of a road. 89 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: And here's what he told our allies to do. Speaking 90 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: of about the oil and the goods that they can't 91 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: access due to Iran's closure of the Strait of Hormuz, 92 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 2: to listen. 93 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 3: The countries of the world that do receive oil through 94 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: the Hormone Strait must take care of that passage. They 95 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: must cherish it. They must grab it and cherish it. 96 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 3: They can do it easily. We will be helpful, but 97 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 3: they should take the lead in protecting the oil that 98 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: they so desperately depend on. So to those countries that 99 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: can't get fuel, many of which refuse to get involved 100 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 3: in the decapitation of Iran, we had to do it ourselves. 101 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 3: I have a suggestion. Number one, buy oil from the 102 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 3: United States of America. We have plenty, we have so much. 103 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 3: And number two, build up some delayed courage. Should have 104 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: done it before, should have done it with us, as 105 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: we asked. Go to the strait and just take it, 106 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: protect it, use it for yourselves. Iran has been essentially decimated. 107 00:06:58,279 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: The hard part is done. 108 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: Be easy, Yeah, to go go in, take it. Get 109 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: also get into a war. That is not how any 110 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: of this works. Of course, the hard part is not done. 111 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: Iran can keep the straight closed as long as it wants. 112 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: Their military is not completely decimated, and closing the Strait 113 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: of Hermos impacts the price of oil. 114 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: For everyone, including us. 115 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if we're getting our oil from Venezuela 116 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: or Alaska. 117 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: The prices are set globally, so. 118 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: If the rest of the world can't get oil through 119 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: the Strait of Horror moves, everyone's oil prices go up. 120 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: Trump doesn't either get that or care. I don't know 121 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: which one, but those are facts. He just wants to 122 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: will it into existence that he's won this war. 123 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: He's not. He's not even close. I don't take any 124 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: pride in saying that. But I've covered war for a 125 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: really long time, and I've talked to people. 126 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: Who are war analysts and who drew up the war 127 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: plans for a war with Iran. 128 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: I'm listening to them. I wish he would, but I 129 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: am listening to them, and. 130 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: They are saying, we're nowhere near being done with this 131 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: because we don't just get to snap our fingers and 132 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: open the straight We don't get to snap our fingers and. 133 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: Pull out of this war. 134 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: There's another actor on the other side, and Iran has 135 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: has been preparing for this. Iran is ready for this. 136 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: Let me, in fact, tell you a little story about Iran. 137 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: Back in nineteen eighty there was a war between Iran 138 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: and Iraq, the Iran Iraq War, and eight days in 139 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:52,119 Speaker 2: Iraq offered to Iran a ceasefire. Iran rejected that ceasefire. 140 00:08:54,280 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: Iraq would offer six more ceasefires. They were all rejected. 141 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 2: That war lasted eight years. It took eight years to 142 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: decimate Iran's economy and military, to degrade their economy and 143 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: military to the point where it was ready to surrender. 144 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: And only then because Iraq was threatening to do chemical 145 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: weapons attacks. Eight years it prolonged a war that Iraq 146 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: offered to stop after eight days. Let that be a 147 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: warning to Trump in the United States. You don't just 148 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: get to tell Iran we're done here. But in his 149 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: attempt to brag about how short this war has lasted, 150 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: again it's not over. He compared it to other lengthy conflicts. 151 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: In this speech, he compared it to Vietnam. He compared 152 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: it to the Iraq War. Well, I got to be honest, 153 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: that only reminded Americans how costly and consuming this one 154 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: is likely to be. 155 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: Take a listen. 156 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 3: It's very important that we keep this conflict in perspective. 157 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 3: American involvement in World War One lasted one year, seven 158 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: months and five days. World War two lasted for three years, 159 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 3: eight months and twenty five days. The Korean War lasted 160 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: for three years, one month and two days. The Vietnam 161 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: War lasted for nineteen years, five months and twenty nine days. 162 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: Iraq went on for eight years, eight months and twenty 163 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:46,119 Speaker 3: eight days. We are in this military operation, so powerful, 164 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 3: so brilliant, against one of the most powerful countries, for 165 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: thirty two days. 166 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: I don't think that had the effect he wanted that 167 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: to have with his dramatic thirty two day drop. 168 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 4: Ye. 169 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: I don't think that did what he thought that was doing. 170 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: All that did was remind us there has not been 171 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: a war that's been short. There certainly hasn't been a 172 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: war with Iran that's been short. We don't tend to 173 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: do short wars for whatever reason. And war is really messy, 174 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: and the idea that this guy, that Donald Trump, who 175 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: knows nothing about war, this guy is going to be 176 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: the one to get us in and out real quick, 177 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: in and out, little excursion. Come on, no one believes 178 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: that it's important to note. I think that this speech 179 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: is also coming against the backdrop of Trump's threats to 180 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: withdraw from NATO. NATO is the post World War two 181 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: treaty that's kept Soviet and other tyrant states from attacking 182 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: the Western Alliance for more than seventy years now. Trump 183 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: might not understand its importance, but the world does, and 184 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: it's collectively rebuking his reckless efforts to weaken the body 185 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: that is crucial for in shuring our own national security 186 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: and stability and that of Europe. And it's so important 187 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: that even Mitch McConnell came out this week to sign 188 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: a letter with Democrats telling everyone how important it is 189 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: that America remain in NATO. And look, the good news 190 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: is Trump doesn't get to unilaterally decide to pull out 191 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 2: of NATO. Fun fact, that's because Marco Rubio, current Secretary 192 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: of State, co sponsored to bill in twenty twenty three 193 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: that made it illegal for a president a commander in 194 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: chief to pull out of NATO without congressional support. So 195 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: Trump can thank his own secretary of State for making 196 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: what he wants to do impossible. But that said, Trump 197 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: can still inflict a lot of pain, a lot of 198 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 2: pain on NATO, and make Vladimir Putin's life a lot 199 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: easier in the process. Listen, times feel fraud. There's no 200 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: question about it. We've got a correct to ignorant, self motivated, 201 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: wanna be dictator prosecuting an ill advised war, using American 202 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: blood and treasure to do it, all while threatening to 203 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: isolate our nation and endanger others even further. He's wreaking 204 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 2: economic havoc at home and across the globe, and it 205 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: feels like without any care or consideration. And like I said, 206 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: he's just giving Russia everything it's been asking for. And 207 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 2: here's the thing I want I want to tell you, 208 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: if we look at this mess the Trump's created, this 209 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: economic mess, this military mess, this mess on the global stage, 210 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: if we look at this mess that he's created too 211 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: closely or for too long, it feels impossible to have 212 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 2: hope for a better tomorrow. And that's why I think 213 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: it's so important now more than ever, to look up 214 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: to look up towards the stars, where actual heroes are 215 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: leading the way. Right now as we speak, we are 216 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: all cheering you on Artemis too. Okay, don't go anywhere 217 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 2: more on all of this with a great guest when 218 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: we return. Welcome back to talking politics. I want to 219 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: get to our fantastic guest. 220 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: I told him. 221 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: Yesterday when I was booking him that he was the 222 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: perfect guest for this conversation, and I feel so lucky 223 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: and I'm proud of my booking skills that we got 224 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: him today. Douglas Brinkley is an historian and an author. 225 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: He's a history professor at Rice University. Contributor to Vanity Fair. 226 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: He's written so many books about presidents and historical figures 227 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: and writers, the Nixon Tapes to the Reagan Diaries. But 228 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: most importantly for us today, he wrote American Moonshot JFK 229 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: and The Great Space Race. 230 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: Welcome, Doug Brinkley, Thank. 231 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 4: You so much for having me. I know we both 232 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 4: shared a deep admiration for NASA in the nineteen sixties 233 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 4: and seventies and carries over to Artemis today. 234 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: We are both space nerds, and I think I've told 235 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: you this, Doug, but I don't know. Back in twenty nineteen, 236 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: I was asked to moderate a panel of women's space 237 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: scientists at the JFK Library for the fiftieth anniversary of 238 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: the Moon landing. 239 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: What an incredible thrill? 240 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 4: I mean, well, no question for you. What an incredible 241 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 4: though must have blown your mind? 242 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: It blew my mind. 243 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 4: And did you get to get to know them personally 244 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 4: any and. 245 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: Have any idea we became I became friendly with several 246 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: of these incredible women, all of whom have asteroids named 247 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: after them, which is great fun, and I subsequently had 248 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: them on some of my CNN shows. But I've been 249 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: excited for Artemis two for years. I'm wearing my Artemis 250 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: sweatshirt that they sent me several years ago. Set the 251 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: stage for how important this moment is in space exploration. 252 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 4: Oh, it's a gigantic moment. First of all, the fact 253 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 4: that you were dealing with the issue of women in space. 254 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 4: We're having our first woman astronaut. That was a big deal. 255 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 4: In the early nineteen sixties, we had a Mercury thirteen project, 256 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 4: thirteen women that were trained in New Mexico by a 257 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: doctor Lovelace, and they did all the tests that you 258 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 4: might see in the movie or The Right Stuff or 259 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 4: the book The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe. I mean 260 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 4: all this arduous physical challenges, examinations, efforts to be a 261 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 4: female astronaut, and all of them got past and yet 262 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 4: in fact most did better than the Mercury Gemini astronaut 263 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 4: that we chose. But alas it was decided there would 264 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 4: be no woman allowed. So unfortunately Russia beat us in 265 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 4: that regard having the first woman astronaut in space. So 266 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 4: I've been particularly glad in the twenty first century to 267 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 4: see space and exploration being wide open to women, and 268 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 4: women going into space engineering, and women that are from 269 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 4: a young age decided I could do it. I want 270 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 4: to be an astronaut, and lo and behold with Artemis, 271 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 4: we're getting a chance to see that, and hopefully by 272 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 4: twenty twenty eight we will be able to put our 273 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: first woman astronaut on the Moon, which will be just 274 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 4: another milestone achievement in US space exploration in the twentieth 275 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 4: and twenty first centuries. 276 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: It will be an incredible moment. 277 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 2: Do you think that this will have the impact on 278 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: future generations the way that Apollo Apollo did? 279 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 4: That is the key question. I was thinking of that 280 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 4: myself last evening, probably not in some regards. When we 281 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 4: only had three TV channels in the CBS, NBC, ABC, 282 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 4: this was mandatory watching. And people like broadcaster Walter Cronkite, 283 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 4: who had had during World War Two was the dean 284 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 4: of Army aviation and bombing, you know, so he got 285 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 4: to know all these flight bombers and then he went 286 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 4: His hometown was Houston, and he had developed his love 287 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 4: of space, so he was a maestro of turning the 288 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 4: space missions into television drama. But we saw the precipitous 289 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 4: drop after Apollo eleven, after Neil Armstrong and Buzz Alderman 290 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 4: walked on the Moon and the whole world was watching. 291 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 4: After Paul eleven, all the other Apollo started getting less 292 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: and less, you know, ratings to the point where you 293 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 4: know that we were trying to do things and asked 294 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 4: a grab attention, like let's golf on the moon and 295 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 4: people watch that. You know, But it's been a while 296 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 4: since our last astronaut's been on the moon, and Artemis 297 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 4: is doing things that paula program couldn't dream of with 298 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 4: its flight course right now in preparation for twenty twenty eight. 299 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 4: So I'm hoping a crescendo will build and this could 300 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 4: become something that pulls our country together, like a NASA 301 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 4: in the Moonshot. But the singer Bob Dylan has a 302 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 4: line in one of his songs called you can always 303 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 4: go back, but you can't go back all the way, 304 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 4: and I interfer that always to mean something like this 305 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 4: was a high water mark, the Moonshot, going to the 306 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 4: Moon of achievement. I don't know of going back to 307 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 4: the Moon and any different guys will still carry quite 308 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 4: the same drama. But it will for me certainly, and 309 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 4: I hope it does for a whole new generation because 310 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 4: the young people in college love space. It's there. I 311 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 4: teach a class on the you know, nineteen sixties and seventies, 312 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 4: and nobody wants to hear about Woodstock or the Summer 313 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 4: of Love. They want to hear about you know, John 314 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 4: Glenn or Alan Shepard or Pace Race Yeah, Gus Greg, 315 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 4: Greg Grissom and the Space Race. 316 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 317 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I asked one of these NASA women, 318 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: doctor Maria Zuber, at the time, like why go back 319 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: to the Moon, And she said, well, imagine someone coming 320 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: to America for the first time and deciding from whatever 321 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: spot they landed on, they knew everything about America, and 322 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: how crazy that would be because we know how diverse 323 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: in different America is. 324 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: She said, the moon is the same, it looks all 325 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: the same to us. It is not. 326 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 2: And one, you know, plane is different from one crater 327 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: from one other lunar field. 328 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: And so she's putting it in that context. 329 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: It makes it almost insane that we haven't been back 330 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 2: much more often than we did in those years following 331 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 2: Apollo eleven. 332 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 4: Well, I agree with that. I think some of this 333 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 4: the you know, the Challenger disaster. You know, the people 334 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 4: will come beyond cutting budgets. You know, NASA in the 335 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 4: nineteen sixties it was about four point four percent of 336 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 4: the annual budget went to NASA for the Moonshot pop 337 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 4: Project Apollo. Today you get about a third of one 338 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 4: percent of federal government, you know, of our money for 339 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 4: these kind of artemis programs because the private sector, as 340 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 4: you know, has come in in such a big time 341 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 4: way with you know, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and 342 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 4: others in that space. But this is showing you NASA 343 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 4: is still still standing tall, the flags still flying. I mean, 344 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 4: this is the the the work of a collaboration out 345 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 4: of the Space Coast UH and working in tandem with 346 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 4: Rice University or MI T Jeffer Polson. 347 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: Labatory, Yeah, JPL Y. 348 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 4: Blue Origin and you know, and other private entities. So 349 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 4: it's a collaborative effort here in a very real way. 350 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 4: And the fact that we not only have a woman astronaut, 351 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 4: but our first black American, you know, first person of color, 352 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 4: that's remarkable. Back in the nineteen sixties, the former CBS 353 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 4: guru Edward R. Murrow wrote very extensively trying to convince 354 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 4: John F. Kennedy, for the civil rights sake of it, 355 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 4: to have one of the astronauts be African American. And 356 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 4: of course that never materialized. So that's another And we 357 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 4: are a country that likes first and anything. You're going 358 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 4: to be hearing a lot in coming years about this 359 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 4: is the first time this happened. This is the first 360 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 4: And I did once speak to President Trump after his 361 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 4: first term about speak going about space, and he loves it. 362 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 4: You know, he created Space Force, our lagos on that 363 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 4: on Florida coast, and if you're down there, people like 364 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 4: to watch, you know, lifts and you know, it's part 365 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 4: of the culture of Florida. The more he said to 366 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 4: me about John F. Kennedy that the moonshot was important 367 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 4: because it was good for the morale of the American people. Sure, 368 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 4: you know that would and and you know, I feel 369 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 4: like if this possibly can pull our country together and 370 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 4: say we we you know, we still got it. It's 371 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 4: not as overt as us first Soviet Union, who's first 372 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 4: to the moon in the nineteen sixties, but in a 373 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 4: in a lesser way, a more covert way. We know 374 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 4: we're trying to out beat China, you know, to the 375 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 4: moon and show our predominance in space and particularly anything 376 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 4: related to the Moon as a possible colony or you know, 377 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 4: military base or just a place that we conduct scientific research. 378 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 4: But we want to see an American flag on the Moon, 379 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 4: not a Chinese flag. 380 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: Well, I invited you on not only because of your 381 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 2: space enthusiasm, right, but because you are an historian and 382 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: a presidential historian. And last night's launch happened to get 383 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: the backdrop of what feels, I think like to many 384 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: Americans like the polar opposite. No pun intended, this amazing 385 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: feat of innovation and patriotism and excitement and hope and 386 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 2: possibility against this ominous political moment that we're in with 387 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: a president who addressed a very anxious nation last night, 388 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: I find it to be an incredible juxtaposition. And coming 389 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 2: from where you are both as a presidential historian and 390 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: space enthusiast, I'm wondering if you could contextualize the artemist 391 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: to launch in the context of what is happening right 392 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: now politically and why maybe we need it so much. 393 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 4: Well, the artemis to launch should be what everybody's talking about. 394 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 4: It should be the water cooler, a dialogue of a America. 395 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 4: But alas it's a very crammed and busy schedule. It's 396 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 4: the same time you had President Trump talking about the 397 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 4: war in Iran, which is very unpopular, sixty percent of 398 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 4: the American public opposed. And there's not a lot of 399 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 4: clarity of what we're doing at this point. There are 400 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 4: we sending in troops, are we just doing more more 401 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 4: you know, bombing missions? Are we pulling out of there? 402 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 4: What's going to happen in the strait of Homos? And 403 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: that's just so much alone. And then yesterday at the 404 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 4: Supreme Court, you had President Trump sitting for seventy minutes. 405 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 4: No president's ever done such a thing listening to birthright 406 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 4: citizenship arguments, arguments trying to undo the fourteenth Amendment, and 407 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 4: you know, that would showed that the Justice Court was 408 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 4: standing up to Trump and caught a lot of people's 409 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 4: attention that that's very likely going to be shot down 410 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 4: in June. So with that, those kind of events going 411 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 4: Artemis to unfortunately took kind of third saddle through the 412 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 4: news cycle, but I believe that it will increase. And 413 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 4: particularly as we're leaning into America's to two hundred and 414 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 4: fiftieth birthday July fourth, we're starting to ask ourselves what 415 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 4: are we proud of as Americans? Certainly the Constitution, are 416 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 4: founding documents, Federalist papers, doctor some of Independence, some of 417 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 4: the Lincoln foundational documents, the Gettysburg Address, Emancipation Proclamation, civil rights, 418 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 4: you know, but the Moonshot, because the Moonshot is still 419 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 4: thought of as the great moment where we prove American exceptionalism. 420 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 4: We were able to take the best and the brightest engineers, scientists, 421 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:53,239 Speaker 4: computer analysts on down and have a goal hit it 422 00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 4: and watch the world's jaw drop and admiringly up in 423 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 4: all of us. And so the start, there's a hunger 424 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 4: for a moonshot. Artemis two could provide that, but we're 425 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 4: going to have to have put some of our social 426 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 4: media feeds, give them a diet, and kind of focus 427 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 4: on the TikTok and incredible engineering feed going on with 428 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 4: our Artemists two and what it means for the future 429 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 4: of satellites or for artificial intelligence, or for national security, 430 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 4: and kind of realize that we still have the ability 431 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 4: to do missions like Artemis too, which just when you 432 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 4: think America is becoming an empire depleted. 433 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: It's a really good point. I was also thinking about 434 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: twenty eight. 435 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: We we have an astronaut in the Senate, as you know, 436 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: Mark Kelly, who is thinking about running for president. And 437 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: we've obviously had astronauts go into politics before we had 438 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 2: you know, John Glenn was in Senate. Jack Sweigert, of 439 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: flight pilot for Apollo thirteen got elected to Congress, died 440 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 2: before he could take office. But Bill Nelson is another. 441 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: But we've never had an astronaut president. And I think 442 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 2: a lot of people, especially kids, look at astronauts still 443 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: as if they're superheroes, right, and certainly role models. 444 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: And you know, after the last few years, we've had. 445 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you think people want a role model 446 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 2: in the White House again, and who better than an 447 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: astronaut to sort of like get our spirits up again? 448 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 4: What do you think I like that? I agree, I 449 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 4: grew up in Perry Spurg, Ohio, and down the road 450 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 4: for me and Walp a Caneto, Ohio's Neil Armstrong. That's right, 451 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 4: and admit everything to me, he was my superhero that 452 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: I couldn't believe a local boys down a country road 453 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 4: or two was the first human to break the shackles 454 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 4: of planet Earth. I thought when John Kerrey got the 455 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 4: Democratic nomination in two thousand and four, my limited advice 456 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 4: was hammering away to pick John Glenn to run with 457 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 4: Carrie oh instead of picking John Edwards of North Carolina. 458 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 4: Carrie was looking at Dick get part of Missouri also, 459 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 4: And I was constantly going to Bob Strum and Mary 460 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 4: Beth k Hill and Glenn and Glenn Glenn because I 461 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 4: went to Ohio State undergraduate and everybody loves John Glenn 462 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 4: in Ohio. He went shopping, they nobody cared whether he's 463 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 4: a Democratic senator. And I kept getting well, he's not 464 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 4: getting too old, and I say he's not too old. 465 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 4: He's a folk figure. They love him and the people 466 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 4: love him in you know, and the same with Mark Kelly. 467 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 4: I mean, he probably is underestimated that his abilities to 468 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 4: perhaps even win the Democratic nomination if he ran. Although 469 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 4: Arizona is a hard state to know what's going on 470 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 4: in any way, shape or form right now. 471 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: Well, Arizona loves him, I can tell you. I know 472 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: a lot of folks, don't. 473 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: They love him. 474 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 4: People love him, and so it's really all to your point. 475 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 4: We do love our astronauts, just like we love our 476 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 4: men and women in the armed forces. And some people 477 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 4: have been hungering for where's our Eisenhower, meaning where's our general? 478 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 4: People asking Admerald mccraven to run for president or you know, 479 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 4: why don't we isn't this the moment we need somebody 480 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 4: from the military, but one of our future leaders very soon, 481 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 4: very well, maybe somebody coming out of space, meaning an astronaut, 482 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 4: because they still have a high at least call John 483 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 4: Q public or whatever. They still have a very high 484 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 4: threshold in the public's estimation. 485 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: When almost no one does right like heroes out there 486 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: that we can all agree with. 487 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, occasional ballplayer and that's about it, you know, and 488 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: then we go into silos. You know, we have personal 489 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 4: heroes for our own personal interest, but not ones that 490 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 4: seem to we are able to transport themselves across all 491 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: fifty states. 492 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Before I let you go, we usually do 493 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: an exit poll of questions to our guest. But honestly, 494 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 2: there's only one question I care about with you. What 495 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: is the best all time ever movie about space? 496 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 4: Wow, that's a really great one. I have to go 497 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 4: with first thought, best thought, which is Stanley Kubrick's two 498 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 4: thousand and one Space Odyssey and why because it haunted me, 499 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 4: particularly the ending of it and thinking about human's the 500 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 4: fragility of human life and how it interacts with the 501 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 4: Solar system, and the way Kubrick manipulated a kind of 502 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 4: sense of birth to death and renewal in the film 503 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 4: and some of for that era. It also the score 504 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 4: and the music, and really it seemed to me like 505 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 4: a avant garde masterpiece of some kind, and I caught 506 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 4: it at the right time where it left an indelible impression. 507 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 4: But I like so many space movies, basically, I'm gonna 508 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 4: stick with Kubrick. 509 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 2: Well, that's a wonderful one, but I also have so 510 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: many favorites. 511 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: I think Contact is up there for me. 512 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that would be high. It's an incredible better. 513 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 4: I mean, I think for better than Kubrick. I'm being 514 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 4: a little esoteric now with Kubrick, but I always give 515 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 4: higher marks to people that influenced me when I was younger, you. 516 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, yeah. 517 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 4: But that's a great film, context great. 518 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: I have another one that's maybe controversial because I don't 519 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 2: think people take it seriously, but Cabricorn one was Oh yeah. 520 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 4: Long, that's really good. That's really great. 521 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 2: I guess it was eighties and it looks very eighties, 522 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: like if you go back to watch the effects. 523 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: Are very eighties. But Brolin and Elliott Gould and yes, 524 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: oj even I mean it was. 525 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: It was a great and it's actually a movie for 526 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: today because it was such a conspiracy theory movie, which 527 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: we all seemed to be doing a lot more of. 528 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: So that's another one I loved. 529 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 4: I liked Apollo thirteen when it came out. 530 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: Well that's a perfect film, yeah, Timmy. 531 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 4: It was just like a flawless best picture of the year, 532 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 4: perfect movie. 533 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got to meet Jim Lovell My parents 534 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 2: were living in Chicago at the time, and he had 535 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: a restaurant called Levels outside of Chicago and the town 536 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: that they lived in. So when I went to visit them, 537 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: I definitely wanted to go there. And he was known 538 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: to sort of like walk the floor from time to time, 539 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: and so I got to shake his hand, and then 540 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 2: I got a signed copy of The Lost Moon that 541 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: he wrote, so like a big connection to that movie 542 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,239 Speaker 2: Apaullo thirteen. It was incredible, And I bet for a 543 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 2: generation like mine might have been one of their first 544 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: introductions to Apollo, right, like they might have known the story, 545 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: but certainly not the story of a ball at thirteen. 546 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 4: Yes, no, and and there are others. But you made 547 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 4: me realize, like my my humor mind just kicked into 548 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 4: if you went to a restaurant and it was like 549 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 4: buzz Aldron walking around, walking around, but and you know, 550 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 4: and who knows what he would have say said to you, 551 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 4: because he was really an unhinged interesting you know gunslinger. 552 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 4: Imagine you're like talking to him and he either could 553 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 4: have treated you like your best friend or say get 554 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 4: out of here, why are you bothering me? You know, 555 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 4: it's he had such a you know such a curmudgeonally, 556 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 4: so he's all about if you buzz Aldron Mars Mars 557 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 4: Mars Yeah, which is a whole other podcast for us 558 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 4: about Mars exploration. 559 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: So is so is buzz Aldrin because he has said 560 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 2: some things about the moon. 561 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 4: That's what I mean. And Buzz says is like HiT's 562 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 4: the conspiracy bells and it blows up the internet when 563 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 4: he says these things. Sometimes I think he's playing messing 564 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 4: with us. Somebody in the room. 565 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: Doug, let's you and I agree he's messing with us, 566 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: because I just messing with us. 567 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: I can't stomach some of the things. 568 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 4: You live your whole life being tau asked the same 569 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 4: question over and over again, so you purposely give the 570 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 4: other totally one eighty contrarian answer. 571 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: I like it. We've decided he's messing with. 572 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 4: Us, messing with us. We're in unity as you as 573 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 4: we usually are, but as. 574 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: You reasonally are that Doug Brinkley, thank you so much 575 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 2: for taking the time for us today. 576 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: You were indeed the perfect guest. 577 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 2: And I am just so honored that you were here 578 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: today on this day after the Artist Too lunch. 579 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 4: I'm thrilled to be with you and I really appreciate 580 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 4: our friendship and you take care of yourself you too. 581 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: Thanks Doug, and thanks to everyone listening. We'll see you 582 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: next week. 583 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as 584 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Network. 585 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: If you want more, check out the other Reason. 586 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 2: Choice podcasts Spolitics with Jamel Hill and Native Land Pod. 587 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: For Off the Cop, I am your host, Si Cup. 588 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Derek Clements. Our executive producers 589 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: are me Si Coup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate 590 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: and review wherever you get your podcasts. Follow or subscribe 591 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 2: for new episodes every Wednesday.