1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hello, listeners. This is Seth the audio producer for Stuff 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. This is just a quick note 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: to let you know that in this episode Robert's microphone 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: sounds a little different compared with our normal episodes. But 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: it's just a one time thing, little glitch in the 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: old technology during these COVID times. But do not worry. 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: We've cleaned it up as best we can and should 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: be still a very pleasant listening experience and we'll be 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: back to normal next week. Thank you very much. Enjoy 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: the show. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to Stuff 12 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Mccormickin today, we're gonna be talking about some 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: American Thanksgiving food. Rob, I've noticed that over the past 15 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: few years, every year you say something like this year, 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: we're going to lean into the holidays. But we've been 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: doing it a lot, and I think one I'm wondering 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: about something psychological. Is it that you think if we 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: actually do content about the holidays on the show, the 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: holidays will we will get through them faster? Um, maybe 21 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: that's part of it. It does kind of extend from 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: my personal philosophy of like, you know, in the past, 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: I have seen Halloween as sort of the end of 24 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: the year, and then all this other stuff is just 25 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: kind of added on and isn't as fun and maybe 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: it's more of a chore. And then I realized, well, 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: that's not getting me anywhere. You know. I don't want 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: to be a sad sack um, you know, or a 29 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: grump us holidays, be a happy sack. Yeah. So so 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: the idea of you know, lean into it, find find 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: something to enjoy about the holidays, find that the bits 32 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: that that work for me, and celebrate those, and uh, yeah, 33 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: I think maybe part of it is like, yeah, if 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: you're into it, it's gonna it's gonna move a little faster. 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: It's gonna it's gonna move along, uh you know, And yeah, 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. And uh also occasionally 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: we have advertisers who are saying who come to us 38 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: and say, hey, what are your holiday episodes for this year? 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: Have one or two in the in the sheath. But 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: you you brought up a topic that I actually thought 41 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: was pretty interesting because I'd never considered this at length before. 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: And it's the idea of the poultry wishbone. So so 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: that's where we're going to be starting today. I don't 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: did you ever actually do the thing as a kid 45 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: where you take out the turkey's wishbone and break it 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: or was that just something you saw on TV? We 47 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: would do it at some point or another, and it's 48 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: not something I remember doing every year. It's so not 49 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: a tradition I continue, I have continued on when I'm 50 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: around cooked turkeys. Uh So I don't have like a 51 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: strong attachment to it. But I do remember doing it. 52 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: But I probably did it because I saw it on TV. Yeah, 53 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: I'd say me too. Uh We we figured at some 54 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: point we tried it at my house and I figured 55 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: out I don't remember the details, but I figured out 56 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: intuitively how to always get the bone to break in 57 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 1: my favor, and I definitely did. That's a real life 58 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: hack there, magical life hack, because yeah, it generally the 59 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: idea is you take this wishbone, this this little you 60 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: or V shaped bone in the turkey. Um, you'll also 61 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: of course find in a chicken. We'll get into all 62 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: the places you can find it here in a bit. 63 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: But the idea is what it's it's you or v shaped. 64 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: Two different people grab an end of it, and then 65 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: you bend, you break, and whoever gets the big part, 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: whoever gets the lion's share of the turkey bone, gets 67 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: to live. However, what they get out they get a 68 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: wish Is that the thing or it's a good luck 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: Maybe that's what it's why it's called a wishbone. I 70 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean it's some kind of luck thunder dome. 71 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: You get the good end of the bargain. It's not 72 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: quick clear exactly what the bargain is. Yeah, it's it's 73 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: one of these things that it seemed pretty It is 74 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: pretty harmless because it's almost completely devoid of of any 75 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: kind of magical thinking. I've never encountered anyone who took 76 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: the wishbone seriously, like, yes, now I have a wish 77 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: that I may call upon, or oh wow, by this 78 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: day is gonna be great. The rest of the day 79 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: is gonna be wonderful because I got the big end 80 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: of the wishbone. But it has what feels like this 81 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: residual magic that has that has been passed down, like 82 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: something like like the turkey itself. You know, it has 83 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: been so cooked and rendered it's almost unrecognizable anymore, but 84 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: there is a semblance of the original organism here, and 85 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: I think that's that's kind of what we see with 86 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: the wishbone. Yeah. Oh, maybe even in an evolutionary sense 87 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: with some wishbones and some types of birds or birds 88 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: like organisms. But what I was thinking about the wishbone 89 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: is maybe the tradition would would be more powerful if 90 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: instead of saying the winner gets something good, you say 91 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: the loser the side of the one who gets the 92 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: bad side of the break gets something bad. Like the 93 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: email forwards that would say, you know, like if you 94 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: get the wrong side of the wishbone, you will see 95 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: a ghost face in the bathroom mirror or something like that. 96 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: Or how about this one. If you get the short 97 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: end of the wishbone, you're the one who has to 98 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: pick all the meat off the turkey carcass for soups 99 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: and sandwiches the next day. If you get the short 100 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: into the wishbone, you have to eat the turkey breasts 101 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: that has been cooked to a hundred and ninety degrees 102 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: fahrenheit is as dry as a pile of sawdust, and 103 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: you don't get any gravy to moisten it. Uh. Yeah, 104 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: the The only hope for those pieces is the is 105 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: the Turkey sunwich the next day where you can literally 106 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: apply man aids to it. Oh yeah, rescues everything, though, 107 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: I do I do want to talk about gravy later 108 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: in the episode and the role that gravy serves, because 109 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: I think one of the big functions of gravy, in 110 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: addition to just making the best of a pan that's 111 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: got some good fond on it, is rescuing utterly lifeless 112 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: base foods. All right, So yeah, we're gonna We're gonna 113 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: start with wishbone. We're gonna get into the turkey a 114 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: little bit, and then we'll finish off with the gravy. 115 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: The gravy will be necessary to go on top. Okay, So, 116 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: but like, biologically, what is a wishbone? I've actually wondered 117 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: this before. It seems like it's in a weird place 118 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: on a bird. What what does it do? So, yeah, 119 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: we're talking about an actual bone. It is the fercula 120 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: um or if you're talking plural, ferkially, and it is 121 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: a bone between the neck and the breast. It's flexible, 122 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: it stores energy that's been released during the wing stroke. 123 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: It's form via the fusion of two clavical so it's 124 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: essential to flight, and so we see it in all 125 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: modern birds, even the flight was penguin has a fercula, 126 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: though it's structurally a bit different to accommodate flipper action 127 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: rather than flying. So it's sort of like um almost 128 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: kind of like a spring or a little structural thing 129 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: within the breast that that provide structural support when the 130 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: breast muscles are powering back and forth to move wings. Yeah, 131 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: I think that would give a fair way to think 132 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: about it. And uh yeah, so it's it's just an 133 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: essential part of powered flights and modern and powered flight 134 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: and modern birds or in the case of the p 135 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: Eengland powered swimming um. The interesting thing though, that is 136 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: that even flightless terrestrial ratites. We discussed ratites on the 137 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: show in the past. We're talking about things like ostriches, 138 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: the emu um. These are birds that no longer fly, 139 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: but they retain vestigial aspects of their wings, and you 140 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: do find the remains of a wishbone in there, although 141 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: in these cases it is almost entirely absent. Now that 142 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: probably raises a question if you're listening to the show 143 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: for you know, the past few year or so. You 144 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: might remember our episodes on the Moa. The Moa, of course, 145 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: is this now extinct flightless bird that was just simply amazing. 146 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: You'll have to go back and listen to those episodes 147 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: for our full argument on the wonder of the moa. 148 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: But one of the many wonderful things about it is 149 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: that it is this giant ratite, this enormous flightless bird 150 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: that not only lost the use of its wings, but 151 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: completely lost its wings like it had no wings. It 152 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: is a completely two limbed land creature, unlike virtually anything 153 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: else you could think of. What the snake is to 154 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: the lizard, this bird is to the flying bird. Yes, 155 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,559 Speaker 1: So my immediate question then, with MOA on the mind, 156 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: was how about the moment? Is that the moa have, 157 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: as far as we know, have anything like a wishbone, 158 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: like even just the slimmest remnant of a wishbone. And 159 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: I looked around and in some of the sources we 160 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: used for the MOA episode, and I wasn't finding anything 161 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: about it. So I actually looked up a researcher who 162 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: had worked on some MOA stuff before. Dr Charlotte A 163 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: Brassie of Manchester Metropolitan University, and I exchanged a couple 164 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: of emails with them, just asking like, is there how 165 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: about the moment? Did the moa have a wishbone? And 166 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: this is what they told me quote, I don't think 167 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: moa had first really to speak of the different species 168 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: of moa very a bit in their shoulder region, Denornis, 169 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: the really big ones did have a vestigial clavicle, which 170 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: are are what eventually fused together to form the fercula, 171 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: but they are very small and not fused packy Ornis 172 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: and megallectoricx Moa didn't even have a vestigial clavical just 173 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: totally accent Wow, interesting by by bones. Yeah, so, uh, 174 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Then, 175 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: but you look at modern birds instant birds, and you're 176 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: going to find a wishbone in there. But that's interesting 177 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: and it makes me wonder since birds are the closest 178 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: relatives of the extinct non avian dinosaurs, Uh, did dinosaurs 179 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: have a have a fercula? Ever? That they have a 180 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: wishbone on a on a raptor or t rex or something. 181 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: It's interesting because, as it turns out, the wishbone has 182 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: an interesting place in our in the history of our 183 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: understanding of dinosaurs. So the seeming absence of the fercula 184 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: in dinosaurs was long held as a case against the 185 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: connection between dinosaurs and modern birds. And uh and and 186 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: we see this really even with the archaeopter X discovered 187 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds, of which we have some 188 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: pretty impressive fossil evidence of. You know, a lot of 189 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: these these dinosaur especially when you're going back to the 190 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, you're dealing with very incomplete fossil sets. 191 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: You know, there were a lot of gaps we had 192 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: to fill in, and therefore when it comes to something 193 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: like a wishbone being there or not, you can say, well, 194 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: maybe it was and we just haven't found it yet. Um. 195 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: But with the with the archaeopter X, you know, some 196 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: of these are very complete looking fossil remains and they 197 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: seem to be lacking a wishbone. So Dlo's law of 198 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: irreversibility at the time held that things lost to evolution 199 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: would not come back, so admitt that the missing fercula 200 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: in dinosaurs could not lead to modern birds. Now we 201 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: know now that Dolo's law is in correct, and the 202 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: clavicles of non avian dinosaurs serve as one of the 203 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: key objections to this idea. But as far as dinosaurs go, Yeah, 204 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: that the key thing to drive home is dinosaurs did 205 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: have ferculate that they were simply missing from our early 206 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: fossil evidence in many of these creatures. Uh. And it's 207 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: and it's a small feature. After all. Again, we have 208 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: to think about the fossil record, the missing pieces that 209 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: are just a part of uncovering the fossil evidence of 210 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: these ancient organisms. And as it turns out, the archaeopter 211 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: X itself um actually did have these kind of cartilage 212 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: uh ferculately uh in their in their bodies. What the 213 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: situation was that these were these were young ones, um, 214 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: young archaeopter x in the fossils, and they didn't have 215 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: fully ossified ferculately yet and therefore, um it was softer, 216 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,359 Speaker 1: it was easier to lose, and it took UV examinations 217 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: to pinpoint it in these help preserved fossil remains. Oh. Okay, 218 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: So the lack of fercule in some dinosaurs or dinosaur 219 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: bird relatives um could be due not just not actually 220 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: to what was present in the animal as it lived, 221 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: but to biases in what types of body parts are 222 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: preserved and how right. And then of course as time 223 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: went by, we just found more and more fossil evidence 224 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: for for the for many of these dinosaurs. So like 225 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: for now, for now we know that the t rex itself, 226 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: the mighty t rex, had a fercula um. You know 227 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: it's not you look at evidence as examples of it, 228 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: and it doesn't look like the wishbone as much. It's 229 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: a much more like a U shape that has been 230 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: almost completely straightened out at least is its leased as 231 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: far as the way it's presented in a lot of 232 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: these um these fossil displays. But it is still a wishbone. 233 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: I think this is clear evidence that the tiny t 234 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: rex arms were actually wings and the t rex could fly. 235 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: Now now that you have everyone has a little bit 236 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: more respect for the role of the wishbone. Like no, 237 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: when if you're holding a wishbone today or this uh 238 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: holiday season, you know you're you're holding this thing that 239 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: is universal to all living birds, that it connects to 240 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: the age of the dinosaurs. But again, most of us 241 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 1: interact with this thing simply by plucking out of it 242 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: out of the holiday carcass and then snapping in in 243 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: half with a friend so that you can engage in 244 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: some some lighthearted divination. I could point out. Another thing 245 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: is that sometimes chefs, when roasting a chicken, will advocate 246 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: removing the wishbone prior to cooking because this makes it 247 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: easier to carve the breast of the bird in the end. Like, 248 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: this is the thing I've seen videos for the chef 249 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: Thomas Keller recommends doing this. So you kind of like 250 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: stick your knife in and you rub it around on 251 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: the wishbone. Then you pull it out with your fingers. 252 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: It looks kind of gross, but it makes the breast, 253 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: makes you able to take the breast off in one 254 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: piece when you're done cooking. So this is this is 255 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: this is a this is a good point to make 256 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: because yeah, we're about to get into this cushions of 257 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: of how the wishbone was used and interpreted by by 258 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: ancient people's And so if you're processing the carcass of 259 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: a of a chicken or some chicken like bird, uh, 260 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: it's going to be potentially something you take out early 261 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: right in order to the process the carcass. And then 262 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: if you do take it out or at whatever phase 263 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: in the butchery that you do this. Uh, it is 264 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: it is something that look that has a distinctive shape 265 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: again you or v shape. It is going to have 266 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: sort of a symbolic quality to it. Uh that might 267 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: be lacking in other easily plucked pieces of the skeletal system. Sure. Yeah, 268 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: So I was looking around for some more information on 269 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: all of this, and I ran across a wonderful book 270 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: by by Janet uh A limb Key that's L. E. 271 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: M b k E. And the title of the book 272 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: is Chickens Their Natural and Unnatural History. And in this 273 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: book she writes a great deal just about chickens in 274 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: their history obviously, but she touches on the wishbone of 275 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: the chicken and things involving the snapping of the wishbone, etcetera. 276 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: And she says that customs surrounding the wishbone may be 277 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: as old as the Etruscans in what is now called 278 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: Tuscany or or Umbria, and then the Romans arrived, the 279 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: custom passed on to them, and of course from the 280 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: Romans we we would see it entering into ultimately into 281 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: European and uh British culture, and then that would have 282 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: been transplanted to the New World during the age of 283 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: transatlantic colonization. So um. She points out that first of all, 284 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: you have to put this, you have to couch this, 285 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: This idea of of looking at the wishbone at all 286 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: in the history of bird divination in general and bird 287 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: divination is interesting because it can cover a broad category 288 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: of divination, like not just cutting open a bird to 289 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: to poke around in it and look at its organs 290 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: or bone as a way to understand the future, but 291 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: also just observing birds in the sky and using the 292 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: flight patterns of birds as a way to try and 293 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: magically understand the patterns of the world. Yeah, if you 294 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: want a fuller dive on divination, by the way, you 295 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: might want to go back and check out our older 296 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: episode on the each ing, which which which. This has 297 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: gotten me thinking about one possibility we talked about in 298 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: the episode. And obviously this would be impossible to prove, 299 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: but but an idea that we play with there is 300 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: that divination could actually prove useful to people even though 301 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: you can't get real hidden knowledge that's in any way accurate, 302 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: it could prove useful to people just by introducing uh 303 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: motivations that spur action and what would otherwise be a 304 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: sort of paralyzing state of you know, just not knowing anything. Yeah, 305 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: it's like I'm I'm to understand that that modern sports 306 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: games well sometimes began with the flipping of a coin. 307 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: You need that random of event in order to make 308 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: it fair that one team will have what might be 309 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: an unfair advantage by starting first, right, um, And so 310 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: it gets going, it gets you going and instead of 311 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: just being at a complete stand still. That's very good analogy. 312 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: And birds are a perfect thing to look for in 313 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: this case, right, because birds also invite a kind of 314 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 1: sacred understanding. Because birds can fly, they are able to 315 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: to bridge this gap between the Earth and the sky, 316 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: between the terrestrial world and the realm of clouds and 317 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: stars and gods and what have you. But that doesn't 318 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: mean it's just birds. Of course. There's also a long 319 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: ancient tradition of examining the bodies of terrestrial creatures. Babylonian 320 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: texts pointed the examination of sheep in trails in acts 321 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: of divination, and the Romans to famously practice such readings 322 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: of entrails known as orestacy, especially concerning the livers of 323 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: sheep and poultry m HM. In Greece, it was known 324 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: as heptoscop scopie or heptomancy to give it a you know, 325 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: more of a Dungeons and Dragon's feel to it. If 326 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: you want to bust out some heptomancy in your next game. 327 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: Is that that's also looking at livers? I think yeah. Now, 328 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: the Etruscans considered chicken sacred and use their bodies and 329 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: acts of divination. They would apparently dry the fercula and 330 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: touching it would bring good luck, like the fercula itself 331 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: was kind of a good luck charm. M hmm. I 332 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: wonder if that has anything to do with the idea 333 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: of a horseshoe being a good luck charm. That could 334 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: could be totally unrelated but won But then again there 335 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: is there does seem to be a similarity between the symbols, right, 336 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: similar shape. Now again, the Romans eventually adapted this, adding 337 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: the breakage tradition apparently and and it appears to a 338 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: varied depending on who is using this tradition, whether the 339 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: big scoring, the big part of the wishbone, or the 340 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: small part the good luck Like who wins is that 341 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: the small or the big. It's kind of like drawing 342 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: straws or something. I don't know, you just break it 343 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: and then you calvin ball it out from there. Yeah. Now, 344 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: the Romans subsequently then brought the tradition to England, where 345 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: the particular bone was often known as the merry thought, 346 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: and then the English brought it to the New World. Now, 347 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: in terms of just thinking about these acts of divination 348 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: involving the bodies of the movements of animals, Um, there's 349 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: more to consider here. I read about some of this 350 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: in Animals and Divination by Peter Struck, and he points 351 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: out that among the Greeks and the Romans, these were 352 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: common ways of attempting to understand what was happening and 353 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: would happen in the world around you. Uh. He writes 354 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: that there there wasn't anything esoteric about turning to the 355 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: entrails or the bones of an animal like this, It's 356 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: just what you did. Quote. The ancients understood that the 357 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: universe had certain inclinations built into it which were more 358 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: or less closely tied to the inclinations of the gods. 359 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: So maybe you could think about um trying to do 360 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: divination based on the behavior or the bodies or parts 361 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: of animals as sort of like the modern thing where 362 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: people think that animals know first when X is going 363 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: to happen. You know, when there's going to be an 364 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: earthquake or whatever, you know, there's some kind of natural disaster. Yeah, 365 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: I mean you could also look to the modern um 366 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: use of bio mimicry and biomamatic designs, the idea that 367 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: if we're going to solve an engineering problem, let's look 368 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: just to see how evolution solved it first, see how 369 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the bodies of animals or plants solve that particular design problem. Um. 370 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: I mean these are more nuanced and scientifically accurate versions 371 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: of the same thing. Like I need to understand what's 372 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: happening in the world, let me look to the physical 373 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: substance of the world for hints about its design. Right, 374 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: and when you have a fuzzier picture of the causes 375 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: and connections between all the different parts of nature, might 376 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 1: seem more logical to try to infer X from the 377 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, the bodies of animals or something. I mean, 378 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: you don't know, that's not how it works. Now, they'll struck. 379 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: In his writings here, he points out that Ascalus, who 380 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: lived through four fifty six b c e UH, summoned 381 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 1: up much of this in the words of the titan 382 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: Prometheus in his play from Prometheus Bound discussing how Prometheus 383 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: instructed humans, and the quote difficult and murky art of 384 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: reading these inclinations, Uh in key places such as in 385 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: the livers and thigh bones of birds. It does make 386 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: me wonder to what extent we see reverberations of these 387 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: ideas even in the modern scientific undertaking of of the 388 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: autopsy or the netcropsy. Uh, you know, not the procedures themselves, 389 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: but the sort of the grandeur afforded them in the media, 390 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of wise individuals poking around and 391 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: the bodies of not only like murder victims and whatnot. 392 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: But I think to the various sci fi scenes in 393 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: which the breaking down of an alien's body or the 394 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: disassembly of an artificial being such as a you know, 395 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: a droid or or or an android or a replicant 396 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: or something like that reveals the inclinations of the unknown. 397 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: That is interesting. Yes, So, I mean, obviously we would 398 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: say that autopsies necropsy is performed in the real world 399 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: by competent professionals have an empirical basis, but the way 400 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: they appear in media, the person doing it often might 401 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: as well be a wizard. Yeah. Yeah, And I think 402 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: they're like the scene an alien where they reassemble ash 403 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: and and and then manipulate his like they're really just 404 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: sort of goosing around with his various um uh android 405 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: in trails and he's coming in the milky stuff. Yeah yeah, 406 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: and they're able to, you know, to to to juice 407 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: him into getting information, to reveal hidden knowledge about the 408 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: predicament that they're facing. In a weird way, that scene 409 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: is almost a perfect parallel of King Soul summoning up 410 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: the shade of the prophet Samuel to to get advice 411 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: on how to proceed against an enemy. Yeah. So, I 412 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: don't know, it would be interesting to hear what other 413 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: people think about that, because it is a scene you 414 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: see a lot again, if not not only in detective stories, 415 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: but just in any kind of sci fi tale in 416 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: which an alien or robot or or any kind of 417 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: artificial being is encountered and granted, from a scientific standpoint, 418 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 1: it would make sense to perform a necropsy on an 419 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: alien being if you wanted to understand how it works 420 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: on a biological level. Likewise, it makes sense from it 421 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: now on an engineering level that you might say, take 422 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,959 Speaker 1: apart a captive battle droid to try and figure out 423 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: what it's programming was. But I can't. I can't help 424 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: but wonder if there is this kind of residual magical 425 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: interpretation of the scenario as well. Totally. Now you're probably wondering, Okay, 426 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about turkeys here, where does the turkey enter 427 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: the picture? So again we're talking about we've been talking 428 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: about the chicken here. The chicken of course had as 429 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: has Asian origins, but then comes to sort of rule 430 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: the world in its own way. Slowly as it is, 431 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: it just spreads from one people to the next, becomes 432 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: incredibly popular. Um, that is it the sorry? Is it 433 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: the case that the ancestral chicken is probably from originally 434 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: from like Southeast Asia? Is that right? Yeah? I believe so. Yes, 435 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: the idea that it's essential essentially this kind of jungly 436 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: bird um that we long ago realized had had value. Uh. 437 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: And of course this is how the chicken would would 438 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: make it to the America's But there was already a 439 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: bird in the America's and that was the turkey. Um. Specifically, 440 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: we were probably thinking here about Melogris Gallopavo which is 441 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: the domestic turkey. I love it by Ben Franklin's Everywhere. 442 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean it makes a strong case as 443 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: always for the being the bird of America. And in fact, 444 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: it is native to eastern and central North America, and 445 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: it was first domesticated by the Mayon's in in in 446 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: in ancient Mexico. So naturally, surviving traditions for chicken wishbones 447 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: would easily translate to the turkeys when Westerners encountered this bird. Uh, 448 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: you know, here's here's something we know how to eat 449 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: a chicken. Well, here's a turkey. It's natural that you 450 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: would apply some of the same ideas to the rendering 451 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: of the body. Uh. And for for these people, though, 452 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: the original domesticators of the turkey, the bird was used 453 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: for food and materials, but also had a symbolic power 454 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: as well. So we we recently discussed the papal Voo 455 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: on the podcast before, so I looked at this to 456 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: see if there were specific mentions of the turkey, and 457 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: there there is. There are a couple of passages that 458 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: are pretty fantastic because they talk about someone running a 459 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: foul of of the gods, becoming cursed and and this 460 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: is what the curse looks like. Quote, even their own dogs, turkeys, tools, 461 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: and houses rise against taking vengeance for past mistreatment. Only 462 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: their descendants are the monkeys that inhabit the forest today. 463 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: And then their dogs and turkeys told them, you caused 464 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: us pain, you at us, but now it is you 465 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: whom we shall eat. Now I am the master. Did 466 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: we actually say, I know we talked about it in 467 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: a recent episode. But the papal vou is A is 468 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: a text that contains a lot of ancient Mayan mythology, 469 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: specifically a lot of the beliefs and like myths of 470 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: the Kiche Mayan people. Yes, yeah, Now, as for magical 471 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: uses of the turkey itself, the use of its bones 472 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: and Mayan and Aztepe practices, I didn't find. I didn't 473 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: find anything particularly that does. It doesn't mean it didn't exist, 474 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it isn't written about well, and it 475 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: also doesn't mean that it wasn't practiced and then just 476 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: sort of lost in the of course cultural apocalypse that 477 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: was the arrival of Westerners in the America's But I 478 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: did find an excellent article titled the Oscillated Turkey in 479 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: Maya thought and this is by Maya specialist Anna Louisia 480 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: as Cuerdo y de la Cueva and Maria Elena Vega 481 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: Phila Lobos, and they discussed some of the Maya traditions 482 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: and beliefs concerning the turkey. Okay, I gotta hear this. 483 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: So first of all, they point out that the Maya 484 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: would have had access to domesticated turkeys imported from Mexico 485 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: as well as the more local wild oscillated turkey. Also, 486 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: turkeys were royal birds and not everyone had access to them. Uh. 487 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: They were seen as stand ins for messengers from the 488 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: gods quote a messenger of divine will, and they were 489 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: used or consumed on very special occasions. They were made 490 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: of sacrifices to ensure the harvest. And then there's this 491 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: additional interesting bit as well. There's this idea of I'm 492 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: not sure if I'm pronouncing this correctly, but why is 493 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: spirits They spell at w A h y i s. 494 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: And these would have been auxiliary spirits that live within 495 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: the body of the possessor but then are controlled by 496 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: the possessor as well. It would be something you would 497 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: acquire through birth or through special petition throughout life. And 498 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: what would happen is during sleep, the possessor would expel 499 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: the wagists through their mouth to keep watch on them, 500 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: to protect them from enemies. Uh. And these would I 501 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: think be supernatural enemies or enemies, you know, supernatural enemies 502 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: summoned by uh, living enemies that could potentially hurt us 503 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: during quote the nocturnal and dream space. So you could 504 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: breathe the spirit out in the night and it would 505 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: keep watch over you. Well, what's the did the spirit 506 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 1: take the form of a turkey? What's the turkey can 507 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: at least some of the time, Yes, it would take 508 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: the form of a turkey, which which I think is 509 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: telling because the domestic turkey and domestic birds in general, 510 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: I feel like it's especially in modern times, there is 511 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: a tendency to degrade them and see them as the 512 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: is um just stupid um animals that have no no, 513 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, mental existence of their own, that are just 514 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: they're just purely domesticated species, and we don't really acknowledge 515 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: them as as anything wondrous. And the idea here is 516 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: that there was a sense of wonder to the turkey. 517 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: There was a noble aspect of the turkey. The turkey 518 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: was seen as something, especially this this wild variety of 519 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: something that that connects us to the spirit world can 520 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: connects us to the gods, and therefore it would be 521 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: a fitting um animal for this spirit that is a 522 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: part of us to take its form. I think it 523 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: may be that just the word turkey sounds funny in English, 524 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: so it becomes the butt of a joke. Yeah. But 525 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: but for the Maya it was it was somewhat different 526 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: that the authors here also point out that there was 527 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: at least one Maya king that took on the title 528 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: of the turkey, like that was his his title or nickname. 529 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: You know. It was an animal that was it was 530 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: perfectly suitable to be taken on as kind of the 531 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: the the animal likeness of a ruler. Well, I mean, 532 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: turkeys can look quite beautiful. It's but there is this 533 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: one you're talking about that's mentioned in this article, the 534 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: oscillated turkey. I mean, god, there's a picture of it 535 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: um that that the authors here include, and it looks 536 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: so gorgeous. It's even got these it has sort of 537 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,479 Speaker 1: a blue shading on the skin of its head with 538 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: red lining around its eyes, and then it's even got 539 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: these strange kind of like moles or tumor looking things 540 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: all over its head. These little bulbs that are yellow 541 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: and the colors altogether are are fabulous. Yeah. I mean 542 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: even you know, even a purely domesticated turkey that you 543 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: encounter nowadays. I mean, it is a fact. It's a 544 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: big creature, you know. I think if you really stop 545 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: and look at it and consider it, you can, you can, 546 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: You'll be impressed by it. But then also, of course 547 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: we have wild turkeys, and I feel like encountering wild turkeys, 548 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: if you're fortunate enough to encounter under them, it can 549 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: be quite it can be quite a moving experience. I've 550 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: even encountered them here in the the the the Atlanta area. 551 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: I encountered them at a cemetery once where they're out 552 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: walking among the tombstones, which seems perfect for you know, 553 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: some sort of spirit being. But I also encountered one 554 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: in my backyard once, which was pretty fabulous because I 555 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: heard other birds in now, yeah, the house I live 556 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: in now, just in the backyard, you know, a very 557 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: residential type area. But the other birds were raising a ruckus, 558 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: and I was like, what's going on back there? Is 559 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: there a dog in my backyard or something? No, it 560 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: was a full blown wild turkey. And and these are 561 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: sizeable animals. Oh yeah, I mean I I have definitely 562 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: encountered urban wild turkeys in in Tennessee. Sometimes they'll just 563 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: wander through neighborhoods in the city. Is pretty cool. So 564 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: I would inclosing here, I would say, if you find 565 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: yourself this Thanksgiving at the table um considering the wishbone 566 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: of a turkey, the you would you would think first 567 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: of all, to the the magical, the divinational practices that 568 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: this bone is tied to. You know that you were 569 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: at least holding on to the vestigial remnants of of 570 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: ancient divination practices. And then on the other hand, you 571 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: the bird itself that you are consuming or present or 572 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 1: present for the consumption of that this too is a 573 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: creature with roots in the sacred. I was trying to 574 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: think of an animal that's commonly eaten in America that 575 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: is treated with more reverence and respect to compare it to, 576 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: But then I couldn't think of anything. Maybe it seems 577 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: like modern American cuisine doesn't just doesn't really honor the animal, 578 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: does it. Now? I mean, I guess you could make 579 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: a case for the turkey being celebrated more than many 580 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: of the animals we can sume, certainly more than the chicken, 581 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: because of course, what do we do we we we 582 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: include it as part of in our iconography for Thanksgiving 583 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: every year, like it is a symbol of thanks get thing. 584 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: It is a symbol of a of a great feast 585 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: that one has. We have that you know, ridiculous tradition 586 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: with the US President's pardoning turkeys. Um, I don't know, 587 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what that's gonna happen this year. I 588 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: don't know how many turkeys are gonna be pardoned this year. Um, 589 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: but but we'll see, thank thank Okay. So I want 590 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: to move on from turkey at this point, because if 591 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: if you've had a turkey prepared in the traditional American style, 592 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: which is to um, to cook until the breast meat 593 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: is so dry you could like play basketball with it, 594 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: you sit down and and it's there on the plate, 595 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: and what what's gonna say, what's going to be the 596 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: saving grace of this experience? Well, obviously it's like you 597 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: would want some kind of hot, fatty, wet, highly flavored 598 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: stuff to go on the turkey to sort of revive it, 599 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: to bring it back from the grave and it is 600 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: out that this is actually another centerpiece of the American 601 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving tradition, which is the gravy. And I so I 602 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: want to talk about gravy for a bit, but I 603 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: also want to just bring your attention rob to some 604 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 1: ads I found for old like commercially sold industrial gravy products, 605 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: so like canned gravyes and gravy mixes um. Uh. One 606 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: I found is it was in an article that I'm 607 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: going to talk about in a bit, but it's for 608 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: the Dirky brown gravy mix. This is a packet mix 609 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: that you throw in with water. Uh. And it says 610 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: all sauce and gravy mixes are made for convenience, but 611 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: Dirkys is for dining and they just fancy calligraphy. Everyone 612 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: should look this up. It's d u r k eat um. 613 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: Dirkeys is for dining and has it. I mean it's 614 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: kind of a snazzy looking advertisement, has kind of a 615 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: Madman madmun vibe to it. Yes, yes, fancy people in suits. 616 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: Clearly they're gonna be having some an Adian club on 617 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: the rocks or maybe Shiva's regal with this. I love 618 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: how there's a cup of coffee in the scene, which 619 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. I never drink coffee with my meals 620 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: for the most part, But is it the idea It's like, 621 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: all right, thanksgivings coming at you, you you got at Let's 622 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: let's move this food. Let's let's supercharge the digested system. 623 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things where they tried 624 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: to promote new uses for foods to sell more of 625 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: them in the mid century. So here it's obviously saying, hey, 626 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: you already you put cream in your coffee, just do 627 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: gravy instead. But I found another ad. This is for 628 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: Franco American beef gravy in a can. It says easy 629 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: economical beef gravy burgers, and it's suggesting that you have 630 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: a piece of white bread and on top of that 631 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: it looks like just just a puck of ground beef 632 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: and then you spoon over or ladle over about a 633 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: gallon of this canned Franco American gravy. Uh. And the 634 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: copy on the set is really good too. It says 635 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: made from the juices of selected beef with that genuine 636 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: roasting pan flavor. Delicious served hot with any meat and potato. 637 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: Dinner on sandwiches in stews or added to make your 638 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: own gravy stress at chin it it hyphenates out the 639 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: word stretch um and so several things here that I like. 640 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: The the use of the there's like carefully chosen words 641 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: made from the juices of selected beef. And what is 642 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: what work is the word selected doing there? I did? 643 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: Did I guess too? Um? Set it apart from random beef? Yeah, 644 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, made from the juices of beef that was 645 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: found somewhere. I had to say the photo on this 646 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: one that went black and white and all it looks 647 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: oddly appetizing. I feel like my family had some version 648 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: of this when I was a kid, where it would 649 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: be the the beef patty on top of the slice 650 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: of bread with gravy on top, with the peas on 651 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: the side. I remember being fond and other one of 652 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: these Franco American beef gravy ads I found. The tagline 653 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: is just smooth, brown, delicious, And I like the idea 654 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: that this actually does tie into some some food science stuff. 655 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: The word brown there suggests not just a color, but 656 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: a flavor. What flavor is it? It's brown flavored um, 657 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: And that that actually does get to the original heart 658 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: of of real gravy. So I was trying to think, 659 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: how would a Martian describe gravy, and like she she's 660 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: making an encyclopedia of earth life, and I think it 661 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: would be something like gravy is a hot, emulsified sauce 662 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: made by combining fat, starch and then some glutamate flavored liquid, 663 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: like a savory liquid, thickened to the rough consistency of 664 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: heavy cream. I think that that that's about it. Um. 665 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: But for the non cooks out there, the traditional method 666 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: of gravy preparation is actually great because it is a 667 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: sort of natural byproduct of roasting a big piece of meat, 668 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: which people often do for Thanksgiving. UM. Because a gravy 669 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: is usually based on the fond left over on the 670 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: bottom of the pan after you've cooked meat via s 671 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: some dry heat method like roasting or pan frying. So 672 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: is the meat cooks, it releases liquids. It releases fats 673 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: and juices, and usually the juices will contain a mixture 674 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: of proteins and carbohydrates sugars, and as these juices are 675 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: cooked on the bottom of a pan under high heat, 676 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: their water content evaporates and they undergo browning. So if 677 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: there are sugars present, they can caramelize, but then the 678 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,479 Speaker 1: proteins and the carbohydrates can together undergo this complex suite 679 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 1: of chemical changes collectively known as the Myard reaction, and 680 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: the Myard reaction in particular is the reaction that's responsible 681 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: for the fact that browned food usually tastes good. It 682 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: creates this a lot of complex flavors. It's the browning 683 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: on the outside of bread when you toast bread. It's 684 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: the browning on the outside of meat. Uh, it's in 685 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: cough be you know. It is that good roasty flavor. 686 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: So to make a traditional gravy, after you roaster pan 687 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: fry a piece of meat, you'll have all this extremely 688 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: flavorful gunk stuck to the bottom of the pan, all 689 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: these browned juices. And from here the gravy process goes 690 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: to de glazing. So you add some kind of liquid. 691 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: Usually this is water or wine broth, maybe spirits, and 692 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: then you use the liquid as a solvent to scrape 693 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: up and dissolve all the brown gunk. And then you 694 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 1: usually add some form of fat and starch to thicken 695 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: the mist mixture. So this can be a rue like 696 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: butter or rendered fat from the pan mixed with flour 697 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: or even corn starch, and then you whisk it all 698 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: together and you cook it until it's thick into the 699 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: consistency you want. And the thickening actually happens two different ways. 700 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: As you cook, the starch grains will swell with liquid 701 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: and burst, releasing carbohydrate molecules. They unravel they missed together 702 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: with one another, and that thickens the sauce. But the 703 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: other method of reducing is just reducing by evaporation as 704 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,879 Speaker 1: the sauce cook x And I was interested in what 705 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: brought about the all of these like prepared gravy products, 706 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: because again, gravy is it's like a byproduct of cooking, right, 707 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: Like you've done the cooking and now you've got the 708 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: basis to make a gravy. How do you get from 709 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: that to the gravy comes in a pre prepared can 710 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: or mixture like a powder mixture, how do we get 711 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: to dirkys is for dining. So I was reading a 712 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: little article in the Atlantic about this by Alexis Madrigal, 713 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: and this is about the history of industrial gravy products, 714 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: specifically powder mixes for gravy um And it is interesting 715 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: to think about the development of instant food products as 716 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: a real sort of science and engineering challenge, because I 717 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: know these products are often derided. I mean, we were 718 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: just making fun of them, but it is. It's it's 719 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: an interesting process that led to their development. Because you've 720 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: got something that is a a natural product of some 721 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: other cooking process. You know what you want the final 722 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: product to look like, taste like, feel like. Uh. You 723 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: know what real gravy is, and you know what limitations 724 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: you have to work with. Maybe your way of getting 725 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: there has to be in a powdered packet or or 726 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: cannibal or something, and then you've got to use science 727 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: to try to get from here to there within your limitations. 728 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: And Madrigal argues that the history of dry mixes for 729 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: gravy are really best understood in the context of dry 730 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: mixes for baking other baking products, which go further back 731 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: in history. So he mentioned that in eighteen eighty two, 732 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: there's this inventor named Philip Thorne who files a patent 733 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: for a just add water baking mix which incorporates flour 734 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: and baking powder as a leavening agent uh and the 735 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: and also dehydrated butter. But this did not immediately become 736 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: a popular product in America. The instant biscuit dope bis 737 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: Quick entered the market in nineteen thirty one, but it 738 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: really wasn't until after World War Two that instant baking 739 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: mixes like Betty Crocker cake Mix became very popular. Now, 740 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: there's one thing I will say about this article, which 741 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: is that it relays a story that I found very 742 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: interesting but started to doubt and this led me down 743 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: a rabbit trail. But I think this rabbit trail is 744 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: worthwhile because it ties into things that people also sometimes 745 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: make conservant Thanksgiving. So there's this anecdote here that Magical 746 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 1: shares about how the recipe design for packaged foods isn't 747 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: just about taste and convenience. It's also about the psychology 748 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: of the cook. Uh. If you've ever made cake cake 749 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: mix from a box, Duncan Hinds or whatever, you probably 750 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: know that there are usually a couple of ingredients that 751 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: you have to provide yourself. So you know, the box 752 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: will give you all the dry ingredients, but then you 753 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: have to combine it with water, maybe oil, and a 754 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: couple of eggs. Now, the story goes that originally the 755 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: Betty Crocker brand simply required water and nothing else in 756 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: their Cake Makes boxes, and that these weren't selling very well. 757 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: And the reasoning was that the process just seemed too artific, shoal, 758 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: too impersonal, too industrial. Uh So, so, in one influential instance, 759 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: General Mills changed the cake mix recipe to require the 760 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: home cook to add their own eggs in addition to 761 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: the water, and so hey, suddenly you're not using, you know, 762 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: just a boxed product, you're actually baking. You added the 763 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,760 Speaker 1: eggs yourself. And according to the industry lore, this recipe 764 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: change where suddenly, instead of having uh dried eggs in 765 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: the mix already, you had to add your own eggs. 766 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: This recipe change made the mix a hit. I even 767 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: found an article on Psychology Today that was retelling the story, 768 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: framing it as about guilt and authenticity. Uh. This was 769 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: supposedly discovered through research by the American consumer psychologist Earnest 770 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: dicter Uh that that home cooks of the nineteen fifties 771 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: felt guilty serving these delicious cakes that were just so 772 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: easy to make, and Dictor reasoned that adding the eggs 773 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 1: made the process slightly less convenient, and thus people felt 774 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 1: better about serving these cakes to guests. But that certainly 775 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: makes a certain amount of sense. You know that you 776 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: would you're you're doing something other than just following some 777 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: simple directions and entering out a can or a box 778 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: of powder and adding milk. You know that there is 779 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,720 Speaker 1: some element of actual baking or food preparation to it 780 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,760 Speaker 1: that that makes you feel useful and not just uh, 781 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: you just just to somebody assembling something. Yeah, and I 782 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,359 Speaker 1: think there absolutely could be something to the underlying psychology there. 783 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, people are full of all kinds 784 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: of interesting psychological quirks that drive their consumer decisions, and 785 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: sometimes a product will sell for reasons other than just 786 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,399 Speaker 1: it's you know, pure value in in whatever objective sense 787 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: you you want to classify that. But the fact that 788 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: this is such a great historical anecdote, the fact that 789 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: it's so perfectly ted talkie kind of made the sleeping 790 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: Dragons of the BS detection go off in my mind. 791 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: So I decided to check, and wouldn't you know it, 792 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: Snopes actually has an article about this very story. It's 793 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: by the founder, one of the founders, David Michelson, and 794 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: my hunch was correct. They ruled this story is false 795 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 1: and The reason they rule it is false is that 796 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: while this is based on a historical reality, Yes, there 797 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: were these recipe changes to adding fresh eggs. Yes, around 798 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: the same time there was increasing use of box cake mixes. 799 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 1: But just saying, uh, the psychological insight from Ernest dicter 800 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: that said you have to add the egg yourself at home, 801 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: that is what made the box cake makes a success. 802 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: That massively over oversimplifies things. Uh. For example, it overstates 803 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: the novelty of the recipe change. There's been this long 804 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: running debate in the industry over the trade offs of 805 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: requiring fresh eggs at preparation versus using powdered eggs in 806 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: the mix. It ignores other reasons for the success of 807 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 1: the fresh egg recipe. One of them is that a 808 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: cake made with a fresh egg is usually going to 809 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: be a lot better. Uh. Quote. Using complete mixes which 810 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,879 Speaker 1: included dried eggs resulted in cakes that stuck to the pan, 811 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: had poor texture, had shorter shelf life, and often tasted 812 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: too strongly of eggs. Another thing is that it kind 813 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: of screws up the timeline of cake mix sales, and 814 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: it ignores the simultaneous success of cake mixes that did 815 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,760 Speaker 1: include powdered egg, and it ignores other changes in marketing 816 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: and advertising that took place simultaneous to the fresh egg recipe. 817 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: One example is repositioning cake mixes as step one in 818 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: a larger creative process that involves icing and decoration and 819 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: things like that. So if if the cook wanted to 820 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: feel like they were actually doing something and not just 821 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: you know, not just opening a box, and that was it, 822 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,919 Speaker 1: that could come at the decoration stage of the cake. 823 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 1: And then finally I thought this was maybe the most interesting. 824 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 1: And the story ignores other social changes that led to 825 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: the increasing sales of box cake mixes in the fifties, 826 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: one of which was that high school home ECN mix 827 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: classes were increasingly teaching baking based on mixes rather than 828 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,879 Speaker 1: from scratch, just sort of couching it in that case, 829 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: and just the the overall um shift towards industrial food products, right, yeah, 830 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,240 Speaker 1: And so it seems like there's a bunch of different 831 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: stuff going on here, and this story just kind of 832 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,840 Speaker 1: like isel, you know, it, cherry picks like a couple 833 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: of little facts from this period and then makes it 834 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: a a self contained, causative story. I'm not sure exactly 835 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: what it was about. That story that set me on alert. 836 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,840 Speaker 1: I guess it just has it has that shape, you know, 837 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: the shape of a story that is a little too tidy, 838 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: where the solution to the problem is very cutely psychologically revealing. 839 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,439 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that you know you love 840 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: to have as an anecdote to lead off your motivational talk. Huh, 841 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I mean, I can't help but thinking about 842 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,760 Speaker 1: just the basic idea of providing your own egg or not. Um. 843 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: I see this today and some of the box meal 844 00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: kids that are out there, um, because box meal kids 845 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: very like there's some box meal kids that are basically 846 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: just TV dinners. Um. And then most of the more 847 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:12,240 Speaker 1: famous ones involved chopping and preparation. But there's one major brand, 848 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: uh that I won't name because they're not paying us 849 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,280 Speaker 1: to right now that includes eggs. And there's another major 850 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 1: brand that I won't name because they're not paying us 851 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 1: right now that asks you to provide your own egg. 852 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think about. Of course, just the 853 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: shipping demands of mailing eggs two people, I imagine that 854 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: is a huge part of it. But but maybe there 855 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: is also the sense of preparation, you know, like it 856 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: is it is good to provide your own egg It's 857 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: good that I've had to procure my own eggs. I 858 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: don't know or or think about where my eggs came 859 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: from by exactly the type of eggs that I want, 860 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,359 Speaker 1: like if I want to you know, cage free. Yeah, 861 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: that's a good point. And I mean, the the underlying 862 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,040 Speaker 1: premise of this story I think does have something to it, 863 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: which is the you know, like we're saying there, there 864 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: are these different sort of psychological pressures that are operating 865 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,760 Speaker 1: us when we're making decisions about what types of food 866 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: products to buy. And those psychological pressures might not be 867 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 1: only how does it taste? What is the cost and 868 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: things like that. It could be things about how we 869 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: feel about methods of preparation or even methods of eating. 870 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,399 Speaker 1: Here's one thing, you know, Taco Bell they put they 871 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: give you the sauce packets on the side, and there's 872 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: like the question of like, now, what's the why why 873 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: do they give you the sauce packets on the side 874 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: instead of just putting the sauce on your taco and 875 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: then handing it off to you. I mean, there's something 876 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,800 Speaker 1: that they've reasoned about, Like people like to be able 877 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: to put the sauce on themselves that you know, there's 878 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: something pleasurable about that process, or like being able to 879 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: determine exactly how much sauce and where it goes and stuff. Well, 880 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: spice control is a big thing, you know. I mean, 881 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: you can have that taco as bland as you want, 882 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,160 Speaker 1: or you can you can start you know, superpowering it 883 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: with with multiple spicy packs. Well, I also wonder about 884 00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: like box macaroni and cheese. Uh, you know, so the 885 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: will give you, like the cheese sauce fully made in 886 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: a powdered form or a you know, like gooey velveta 887 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: form or whatever ahead of time. Or I think there 888 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,000 Speaker 1: are some fancier brands that ask you to supply something 889 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:12,800 Speaker 1: of your own, you know, use your own butter, or 890 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,439 Speaker 1: use your own milk that may contribute somewhat to the 891 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: texture the final product. But I wonder also if that's like, 892 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,479 Speaker 1: if you're trying to up sell a brand, you're trying 893 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: to sell a more expensive box macaroni and cheese, is 894 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: there is there a calculation that people will think, oh, 895 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 1: this is a more legitimate meal, more legitimate food product 896 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: if I provide some of my own fresh ingredients. Yeah, 897 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: is this a meal in a box? Or is this 898 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: an ingredient for a meal? Um? I guess the difference 899 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 1: can can can play a major row and whether one 900 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: purchase it or not. But let's get back to the 901 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 1: gravy jo. Oh yeah, So where does gravy enter the 902 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,240 Speaker 1: picture again here? Well, thinking about these industrially produced gravy mixes. Um, 903 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: so again, you know we've we've said gravy is usually 904 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: a byproduct of cooking meat. Uh, what is the gravy 905 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,760 Speaker 1: factory supposed to do? Like you cook a million roasts 906 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 1: and then you deglaze the fond or the drippings from that, 907 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: and then you find something else to do with the meat. 908 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like kind of impractical at an 909 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: industrial scale. And for this reason, a lot of package gravyes, 910 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, they'll have to like use a secondary animal 911 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: product as the flavoring to begin with, or the in 912 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 1: fact maybe have little or nothing to do with the 913 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: meat they're supposed to taste. Like. In this article, Magical 914 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,720 Speaker 1: quotes a food scientist at the University of Minnesota named 915 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: Gary A. Rhinesius, who says the gravy mixes are a 916 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,919 Speaker 1: little more sophisticated because the flavor from the gravy mix. 917 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: Maybe a beef gravy, but it's never been near a cow, 918 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 1: so that you might get a beef gravy that just 919 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: has no beef content at all. So where does the 920 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,320 Speaker 1: flavor come from? Well, they're they're all kinds of flavorings 921 00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: that can be like wheat based flavorings, there can be 922 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean a big one for gravy mixes in history 923 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: is MSG, which we've done whole episodes about before, a 924 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: monosodium glutamate originally isolated by by Japanese food scientists from 925 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,080 Speaker 1: from seaweed, and this recreates a lot of the savory 926 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: flavors that we associate with things like parmesan cheese or 927 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:21,799 Speaker 1: tomatoes or soy sauce or meats. But there has apparently 928 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,719 Speaker 1: been a huge bug bear in the history of powdered 929 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:30,160 Speaker 1: gravy mixes, and that is lumps. So if if you 930 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: ever made gravy yourself, you you might have encountered lumps before. 931 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 1: When when you add starch to a mixture of water 932 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: and fat, it can be very easy for the starch 933 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: to form little clumps that don't fully dissolve into the sauce. 934 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: So if you know, if you get a clump of 935 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 1: raw flour or corn starch in your mouth while you're 936 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 1: eating gravy, that is very unpleasant. Uh. And on the 937 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,719 Speaker 1: on the On a slightly related note, you should never 938 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: eat raw flour. By the way, when when people tell 939 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,160 Speaker 1: you not to eat raw dough for some reason, they 940 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,280 Speaker 1: only emphasize the presence of raw eggs, But you should 941 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 1: be at least as concerned about raw flour because raw 942 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: flour can easily pick up bacterial contamination like E. Coal 943 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: I and other things um, and bacteria can survive until 944 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: the flower is cooked. You should think about raw flour 945 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: in sort of the same way you think about raw hamburger. Um. 946 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: You know, don't eat it if it's not cooked. So 947 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: that to be clear, you're saying don't eat cookie dough, right, Well, 948 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean it depends, like you could make cookie dough 949 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: from something that is safe. But yeah, if it's got 950 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: raw flour in it, you should not eat it because 951 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:45,359 Speaker 1: it might hurt me. I mean there are outbreaks. Well, 952 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,399 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I don't know. I think there are 953 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,319 Speaker 1: things that are safety use like there you know, there 954 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: are companies that sell cookie dough that's just ready to 955 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,080 Speaker 1: eat cookie dough, ice cream and all that. I think 956 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,799 Speaker 1: that does not have raw flour in it, or if 957 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 1: it does, it's somehow been through a process that renders 958 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: it safe. I'm not saying one should definitely ignore you 959 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 1: on this one, but I'm just saying it's it's gonna be. 960 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: It's gonna be hard to to make this life change 961 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: when the cookie dough or the cake batter or even 962 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: the pancake batter is often the most delightful part of 963 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: the whole process. I mean, I guess it can be. 964 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: I don't know. The taste of raw flower. I think 965 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: is is kind of gross and chalky on its own, 966 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: but there's obviously no I mean, I understand the appeal. 967 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I've had cookie dough too, but no, raw 968 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,120 Speaker 1: flower can have contamination, just like raw meat can. There's 969 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: been major outbreaks of ecal live from flower in the US. 970 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,920 Speaker 1: There's one in sixteen, there was another one in twenty nineteen. 971 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,600 Speaker 1: According to the CDC, these sickened at least eight people. 972 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 1: Uh and the fun fact I was looking up, Oh, 973 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,759 Speaker 1: how exactly does flower get contaminated by E coal? Lie? 974 00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:52,879 Speaker 1: Does that happen in the factory or whatever. It can 975 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,759 Speaker 1: happen at multiple stages of the process, but sometimes it 976 00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:00,080 Speaker 1: appears to be literally just contamination by animal feces in 977 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,719 Speaker 1: the fields where the wheat is grown. So cool, huh ah, man, 978 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:09,360 Speaker 1: you can ruin cookie dough for ever. But back to 979 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,879 Speaker 1: lumpy gravy. Hey that you know it's so maybe you've 980 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,399 Speaker 1: got some lumps of that same flower in your gravy. Uh. 981 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,359 Speaker 1: There are ways around lumpy gravy. So first of all, 982 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,080 Speaker 1: it helps to add starch when the mixture is cool 983 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 1: instead of hot, and then dissolve it before as the 984 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,080 Speaker 1: mixture heats, rather than adding starch to liquid that's already 985 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,520 Speaker 1: hot or boiling. Another method is, of course, just good 986 00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,399 Speaker 1: old fashioned whisking. Just break it up with whisk. But 987 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 1: in reference to a patent that he found Madrigal Rights, 988 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,040 Speaker 1: quote home cooks can prevent this simply by stirring the mixture, 989 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 1: but that required quote considerable skill, as general mills Harold 990 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: Keller put it in a nineteen fifty eight patent application. 991 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much skill it takes to stir 992 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: something or to whisk it, But um, I don't know. 993 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,399 Speaker 1: I've been accused of improper whisking before. So oh yeah, 994 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 1: what do you do wrong? Um? I think it was 995 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,719 Speaker 1: just like scrambled eggs that I did not whisk properly, 996 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:05,399 Speaker 1: you know, because you gotta get it, you know. It's 997 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 1: it's not just stirring rapidly, like there's a whole like 998 00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,360 Speaker 1: a wrist orientation that needs to be right to do it. 999 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,279 Speaker 1: If you're really whisking something. Yeah, oh well, here's the 1000 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,799 Speaker 1: tip actually for for the cooks out there. Uh, if 1001 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,360 Speaker 1: you want to emulsify something really good with a whisk 1002 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,920 Speaker 1: or fork, you're beating it. I used to always think 1003 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 1: it would be best to stir in a circle. That 1004 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,719 Speaker 1: I have read that it is better to go just 1005 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,040 Speaker 1: back and forth side to side than it is to 1006 00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 1: go in a circle because there's actually more mechanical agitation 1007 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,040 Speaker 1: if you go back and forth in a straight line. 1008 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,719 Speaker 1: That I think that was one of the problems I 1009 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: had previously, is that I would kind of I was 1010 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,640 Speaker 1: whisking like I was stirring rapidly, and so I was 1011 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,040 Speaker 1: going in a circle and I wasn't doing that that 1012 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,839 Speaker 1: just fast whipping. It's more like point a to point 1013 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,920 Speaker 1: b in the back to point A, so you're one 1014 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,080 Speaker 1: of these people who who Harold Keller just thinks that 1015 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,840 Speaker 1: you do not have considerable skill. Correct, I can't do it. 1016 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,919 Speaker 1: I think I'm better now, I'm I'm improving, but but yeah, 1017 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,560 Speaker 1: I don't think I was good at whisking or passable 1018 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,160 Speaker 1: at whisking until very recently. So was there a way 1019 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,839 Speaker 1: around the lump problem? Well, some more food science came in. 1020 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 1: Manufacturers discovered that, of course the addition of leavening agents 1021 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: could help a little bit. They could help prevent lumps 1022 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: from forming, and especially if the mixture was again added 1023 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,720 Speaker 1: at lower temperatures. But lumps would still come together if 1024 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,480 Speaker 1: you had already boiling water and you poured the mixture in. 1025 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: So finally, the solution to the lump problem was to 1026 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 1: add long chain carbon hydrates, specifically multidextron in a one 1027 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: to one ratio. And that sort of gets us up 1028 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,560 Speaker 1: to the instant packet of gravy we know today dirkeys 1029 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 1: is for dinner. Thank thank I've got weirder territory to 1030 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,720 Speaker 1: get to. Even then the strange packet of of of 1031 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 1: gravy stuff or gravy like food. Because you know that 1032 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: we love the intersect of religion and food of course, 1033 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,480 Speaker 1: I was wondering if I could find any good gravy 1034 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:11,560 Speaker 1: rituals or gravy superstitions, gravy mythology, good gravy. I I 1035 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,800 Speaker 1: wasn't expecting to find anything, but I actually did sort of, 1036 00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: at least in a very old classic book of of 1037 00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,880 Speaker 1: religious ethnography that is coming from a scholar named Uno Holmberg. 1038 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,720 Speaker 1: He's He's a Finnished scholar of religions. He's apparently also 1039 00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,440 Speaker 1: known as Uno Harva, and he wrote in the early 1040 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:35,480 Speaker 1: twentieth century. He wrote a volume of this big mythology 1041 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,840 Speaker 1: series that was about the beliefs and rituals of what 1042 00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,760 Speaker 1: he called the Finno Ugric people. So this is gonna 1043 00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:47,560 Speaker 1: include Finnish people and people of much of the northern 1044 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:53,080 Speaker 1: northern Eurasia and northwest Siberia by region at least, I mean, 1045 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,960 Speaker 1: they might identify as different than Russian ethnically. And this 1046 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:04,240 Speaker 1: volume mentions record at observations of several interesting rituals involving gravy. 1047 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,960 Speaker 1: So the first is in rituals honoring the memory of 1048 00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,320 Speaker 1: the dead among some of the language groups of Northern Eurasia. 1049 00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,800 Speaker 1: Again this would be like western Siberia and among some 1050 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,080 Speaker 1: of these cultures. After a person dies, it is customary 1051 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,280 Speaker 1: to honor them by bringing food to their grave or 1052 00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,240 Speaker 1: placing food out somewhere in the dead person's memory. Quote, 1053 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 1: fish and meat are cooked and together with other eatables, 1054 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,200 Speaker 1: placed in vessels, either on the ground by the house 1055 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,400 Speaker 1: against the door on the side of the hinges, or 1056 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,720 Speaker 1: taken to the cemetery, where they are put on the 1057 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: ground above the head of the deceased, or below the 1058 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,080 Speaker 1: window of the grave house if there is one on 1059 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: the ground. T gravy, gin, and finally some cold water 1060 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 1: are poured. Whence the term water pouring is derived. Uh 1061 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: So gravy and gin for the dead. I was also 1062 00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,960 Speaker 1: surprised by the specification of gin because I don't use 1063 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,520 Speaker 1: really think of that as uh the commonest spirit to 1064 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,240 Speaker 1: find in like western Siberia. But yeah, it makes me 1065 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,840 Speaker 1: wonder if it's specifically Jen we're talking about here, or 1066 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 1: they're just referring to some regional alcohol that might be 1067 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,280 Speaker 1: comparable on some level to Jenn. Yeah, that could be 1068 01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,480 Speaker 1: sort of some sort of clear herbal liquor. Another one 1069 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,080 Speaker 1: that I thought was interesting was there there was a 1070 01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:29,240 Speaker 1: memorial gravy practice that Holmberg mentions as taking place among 1071 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: the fins of the Vulgar region, and he says that 1072 01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,920 Speaker 1: so there are these memorial feasts for the dead, in 1073 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,160 Speaker 1: which quote at the door near the fireplace, a trough 1074 01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,439 Speaker 1: is placed on which as on the head of a bed, 1075 01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,520 Speaker 1: little wax tapers, and I think that would refer to 1076 01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,120 Speaker 1: little objects that you would use as if to like 1077 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,720 Speaker 1: light a candle with little wax tapers are fixed into 1078 01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: the trough. Pieces of meat are thrown, and some gravy 1079 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,800 Speaker 1: poured when the names of the dead are mentioned, with 1080 01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,160 Speaker 1: an appeal to them to eat and drink and to 1081 01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:06,240 Speaker 1: receive the lately deceased with a contented mind into their company. 1082 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,520 Speaker 1: And so I like this because it it almost seems 1083 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:12,000 Speaker 1: to mirror the presence of gravy at Thanksgiving. It's like 1084 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,280 Speaker 1: you're using meat and gravy as a kind of bribe 1085 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,439 Speaker 1: or offering to the long dead so that they don't 1086 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,080 Speaker 1: give a cold shoulder to the recently dead, and they 1087 01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,680 Speaker 1: bring them into the family of the dead. But there's 1088 01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,360 Speaker 1: also a description of practices related to the killing of 1089 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,680 Speaker 1: a bear by some of the Sami people's and I 1090 01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: thought this was really interesting. So I'm just gonna read 1091 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:38,080 Speaker 1: this paragraph here. When the flesh is being cooked, the 1092 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,080 Speaker 1: hunters sit on each side of the fire according to 1093 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 1: their rank and position. First it's the one who tracked 1094 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,560 Speaker 1: the bear, then the interpreter of the magic drum, the 1095 01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,480 Speaker 1: bear killers, etcetera, all according to the importance of the 1096 01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,959 Speaker 1: duty which they have had to do during the kill. 1097 01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,280 Speaker 1: The vessel in which the flesh is cooked must be 1098 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,320 Speaker 1: of brass, or at the very least ornamented with brass rings. 1099 01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,000 Speaker 1: It must be carefully watched during the cooking, as the 1100 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,480 Speaker 1: running over of the tiniest trifle of gravy into the 1101 01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,640 Speaker 1: fire is regarded as a very bad omen. Should the 1102 01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,640 Speaker 1: gravy commenced to boil too violently, it is not regulated 1103 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,840 Speaker 1: by adding water or thinning out the fire, but one 1104 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,160 Speaker 1: of the men must go to the tent to see 1105 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,600 Speaker 1: whether any of the women has caused the trouble by 1106 01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:30,080 Speaker 1: unsuitable behavior. Should nothing blame worthy be found there, the 1107 01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,400 Speaker 1: chief person of the gathering tries to stop the gravy 1108 01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:37,520 Speaker 1: from boiling over by the customary singing, singing to the 1109 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,000 Speaker 1: gravy to prevent it from boiling out of the pan 1110 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,760 Speaker 1: into the fire, which would be a horrible symbol of 1111 01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,880 Speaker 1: bad luck to come, but only if you can't blame 1112 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,400 Speaker 1: it on the on the women in the tent, yes um, 1113 01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,320 Speaker 1: and so as always the You know, this is an 1114 01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:56,040 Speaker 1: older work of of recorded observations of religious rituals. I 1115 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:57,880 Speaker 1: don't know how this would hold up to more modern 1116 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,080 Speaker 1: scrutiny of what the same tribes would practice. But is 1117 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,960 Speaker 1: our interesting reports? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. I I have to 1118 01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:08,240 Speaker 1: admit I never even considered the possibility of of sacred 1119 01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:13,040 Speaker 1: gravy or sacred traditions involving gravy. I mean the gravy. 1120 01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,720 Speaker 1: It is a it's it's a liquid essence of the 1121 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,880 Speaker 1: body of an animal. And so if you have sacred 1122 01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,280 Speaker 1: thoughts about the flesh of an animal, it clearly Uh, 1123 01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:25,080 Speaker 1: there are sacred practices revolved around the hunting of a 1124 01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,560 Speaker 1: bear among the Sami People's Yeah, I guess. I guess 1125 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,680 Speaker 1: that it comes down to the rendering, you know, like 1126 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:34,840 Speaker 1: once something is rendered or processed into another food product. 1127 01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,080 Speaker 1: This is problem. Maybe this is more the modern sensibility 1128 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,200 Speaker 1: where we often want to distance the end result of 1129 01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,600 Speaker 1: the food from the animal, so we don't think of 1130 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, we don't don't want to think of the 1131 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,280 Speaker 1: pork as the pig, and we certainly don't want to 1132 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,680 Speaker 1: think about the uh, the anna sausages as presumably a pig. 1133 01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure what animal on the other end 1134 01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,240 Speaker 1: of that that the foul process. But but but at 1135 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: any rate, it's like the modern sensibilities to think, well, 1136 01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,959 Speaker 1: the thing you make out of the animal no longer 1137 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,040 Speaker 1: has any connections to it, you know, we're not supposed 1138 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:11,520 Speaker 1: to have that connection in place, whereas that's completely ridiculous, 1139 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,200 Speaker 1: like why wouldn't the gravy of the bear still have 1140 01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,040 Speaker 1: bareness to it? That is a really good point. I 1141 01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:19,520 Speaker 1: think about this in the psychology of food a lot actually, 1142 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,440 Speaker 1: the d natur ing of the food, the removal the 1143 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,120 Speaker 1: ways that you change food and process it so that 1144 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,520 Speaker 1: it no longer resembles or even reminds you of the 1145 01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,480 Speaker 1: animal or the plant that it once came from, the 1146 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:37,360 Speaker 1: making of everything into like patties or into chicken nuggets, 1147 01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, things that that you you couldn't even mistake 1148 01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 1: for a muscle or for a part of an animal's body. 1149 01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,600 Speaker 1: And that's clearly at athetical to some of these sacred 1150 01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,760 Speaker 1: practices where you are not only not processing the food 1151 01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,080 Speaker 1: so that it's unrecognizable. You are constantly making reference to 1152 01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,600 Speaker 1: and thinking about the animal it came from as you 1153 01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,480 Speaker 1: eat it. Yeah, I also think it's interesting that you 1154 01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,000 Speaker 1: see a lot of this d naturing, specifically in foods 1155 01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:04,880 Speaker 1: for children. And I don't know if that's just a 1156 01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,560 Speaker 1: quirk of modern American culture or if that's a more 1157 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,320 Speaker 1: common thing around the world and throughout history that you 1158 01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,600 Speaker 1: have to for kids, you have to make foods less 1159 01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: resemble the organisms they originally came from. I don't know 1160 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,480 Speaker 1: what do you think about the I mean, I can 1161 01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,280 Speaker 1: mainly only speak to my my own experience with a child. 1162 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 1: But and even this example, there's some contradictions because on 1163 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: one hand, Um, as soon as he knew the distinction 1164 01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: that you know, the chicken, is this this bird, you know, etcetera, 1165 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,200 Speaker 1: he decided he didn't want to eat those animals anymore 1166 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:44,200 Speaker 1: and has has remained firm on that point on on 1167 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,440 Speaker 1: on this. At the same time, as far as marine 1168 01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:50,280 Speaker 1: animals go, uh, it's the complete opposite, Like like he 1169 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:53,600 Speaker 1: gets excited about the crabs if he has helped to 1170 01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,520 Speaker 1: catch crabs before, and he makes him want to eat 1171 01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,560 Speaker 1: them even more, you know, And he seems totally into 1172 01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,520 Speaker 1: the like the experience of eating oysters, um, you know, 1173 01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,800 Speaker 1: the opening of the shell and pulling it, pulling it apart. 1174 01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,360 Speaker 1: Now all the like, the consumption of an oyster is 1175 01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,480 Speaker 1: very tied to an understanding of its um, of it, 1176 01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,480 Speaker 1: of its biological origins. And uh yeah, so I don't know, 1177 01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,160 Speaker 1: I I kind of see both things in him. You know. Well, 1178 01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 1: that's funny because modern secular oyster culture reminds me very 1179 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,160 Speaker 1: much of these sacred rituals where, like with the bear here, 1180 01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,640 Speaker 1: where you're very much wanting to think about the animal 1181 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,320 Speaker 1: itself and even uh not wanting to spill any of 1182 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:34,080 Speaker 1: the liquor out of the shell. You know, you want 1183 01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,440 Speaker 1: to get it all in your mouth. Yeah, I mean, 1184 01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:40,120 Speaker 1: oysters are very ritual eyes really at every level. Like 1185 01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:42,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of a I'm still kind of old 1186 01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,920 Speaker 1: fashioned with my appreciation of oysters. I like I like 1187 01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:50,480 Speaker 1: my my catch up the horse radish sauce. I like 1188 01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,400 Speaker 1: my saltine crackers and uh and you know a little 1189 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,720 Speaker 1: bit of lemon um and and but that in and 1190 01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,600 Speaker 1: of itself is very you know, it's it's almost like communion. Yeah, 1191 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,680 Speaker 1: these different elements that come together. But then of course 1192 01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,920 Speaker 1: you have fancier versions of the same ritual that involve like, 1193 01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:08,640 Speaker 1: like you know, a little uh little glass tubes of 1194 01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:11,919 Speaker 1: liquid bit are poured on top uh and it gets 1195 01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,040 Speaker 1: it gets even fancy or even feel it feels even 1196 01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,000 Speaker 1: more sacred in some way. This is the body of Poseidon. 1197 01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,360 Speaker 1: Eat this in remembrance of me. Yeah. Now, I know 1198 01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,480 Speaker 1: we've been talking about a lot of meat products here 1199 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,800 Speaker 1: because they are very central to you know, a traditional 1200 01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:29,120 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner in American culture. But I want to add 1201 01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:31,280 Speaker 1: a brief culinary note, which is that if you are 1202 01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,920 Speaker 1: a vegetarian, you need not miss out on gravy for 1203 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:38,320 Speaker 1: the rest of your life, because gravy made from mushroom broth, 1204 01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,360 Speaker 1: I think, is not only as good as gravy made 1205 01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,440 Speaker 1: from meat, it's often better. I think probably the best 1206 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,240 Speaker 1: gravy I ever made was mushroom based. And you can 1207 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,280 Speaker 1: make these yourself just by like simmering dried mushrooms with 1208 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:54,960 Speaker 1: aromatic vegetables to make a mushroom broth. Then you reduce that, 1209 01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:56,960 Speaker 1: then you mix it with a with a ru or 1210 01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,160 Speaker 1: whatever seasonings you want in order to thicken it. Even 1211 01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,080 Speaker 1: if you're a meat eater, a good mushroom gravy is 1212 01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,480 Speaker 1: absolutely worth trying. It's delicious. Yeah, there was some sort 1213 01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,040 Speaker 1: of meal my family would make when I was a kid, 1214 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 1: and it was I can't remember the details, but I 1215 01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 1: feel like the idea was it was a less um 1216 01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,799 Speaker 1: fancy cut of meat well and and adding a mushroom 1217 01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,960 Speaker 1: sauce to it was an essential part of enjoying it. 1218 01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:25,719 Speaker 1: Like it it. It alone elevated this cut of meat 1219 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:29,360 Speaker 1: to something that was was suitable for consumption. I think 1220 01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,559 Speaker 1: this brings us back to one of the core things 1221 01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,000 Speaker 1: about how gravy is used because and this actually ranges 1222 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,679 Speaker 1: across different types of customs. It's true for the dry, 1223 01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:41,720 Speaker 1: overcooked underseason turkey that a lot of people would eat, 1224 01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, you save it by pouring gravy all over it. 1225 01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,439 Speaker 1: But it's also true, I say, biscuits and gravy, you know, 1226 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,080 Speaker 1: I think that's a recipe that where the gravy was 1227 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:53,280 Speaker 1: brought in to save just these like gross lumps of 1228 01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:56,479 Speaker 1: You just gotta get this food into your body to 1229 01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,920 Speaker 1: power you through the day. But it's this nasty baked 1230 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,320 Speaker 1: product that is not very good on its own. Well, 1231 01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,360 Speaker 1: you pour some gravy over it. Now, it's a hot meal. Yeah. 1232 01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,120 Speaker 1: This reminds me of our Invention episode on Ketchup, which 1233 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,439 Speaker 1: I anybody who's digging this episode definitely go look up 1234 01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,000 Speaker 1: that episode of Ketchup. It's either in the Stuff to 1235 01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,320 Speaker 1: boil your mind feed from earlier this year when we 1236 01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:19,559 Speaker 1: were kind of dumped a lot of Invention episodes into 1237 01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:21,160 Speaker 1: the feed, or you might have to go over to 1238 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:24,200 Speaker 1: the Invention show feed itself. But but it's a similar 1239 01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:27,000 Speaker 1: history like the the the origin of ketchup is the 1240 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,120 Speaker 1: origin of these various sauces that were created. Oftentimes it's 1241 01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:35,000 Speaker 1: like a secondary product from the from preserve the preservation 1242 01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,080 Speaker 1: of you know, fish or whatnot, and then using these 1243 01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:44,719 Speaker 1: as a way to make potentially vile tasting foods more palatable. Yeah. 1244 01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,360 Speaker 1: Well this this also reminds me one of the early 1245 01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: recommendations for uses of ketchup an American cuisine was to 1246 01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:57,240 Speaker 1: add flavor to gravies. No Joe, Wow, so you'd like 1247 01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:02,280 Speaker 1: mix it in? Yeah? Okay, one last bonus fact I 1248 01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,519 Speaker 1: just wanted to talk about real quick before we end, 1249 01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,600 Speaker 1: cranberry sauce. Do you have cranberry sauce thoughts? Do you 1250 01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,080 Speaker 1: like the can stuff I've seen people say like they 1251 01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:14,360 Speaker 1: don't want it unless it has the canned ribs still 1252 01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:17,439 Speaker 1: visible on it, like you know, bones poking out under 1253 01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,519 Speaker 1: the flesh of a beast. I don't have a particular 1254 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:23,840 Speaker 1: preference because I'm I'm better, but I remember growing up 1255 01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:26,599 Speaker 1: we would the rest of the family would have like 1256 01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:32,240 Speaker 1: a more elegant cranberry sauce that clearly has an organic origin. 1257 01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:34,519 Speaker 1: But my dad, I believe it was my dad been 1258 01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:36,760 Speaker 1: insisted on, or maybe it's my grandfather, can't remember. I 1259 01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,479 Speaker 1: think it was my dad insisted on the canned version 1260 01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,160 Speaker 1: where if it's like clearly it's in the shape of 1261 01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,599 Speaker 1: a can, it still has the lines on it, the ridges, 1262 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,640 Speaker 1: and it's just been sliced in half. It's just like 1263 01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,439 Speaker 1: a chopped up segment of a pink snake and you 1264 01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:54,760 Speaker 1: can see it's bones. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. 1265 01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:56,519 Speaker 1: As far as traditions go, I kind of love them both, 1266 01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:58,280 Speaker 1: Like I even though I don't think I ever ate 1267 01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,960 Speaker 1: the canned cranberry stuff like that, just thinking about it 1268 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:05,479 Speaker 1: makes me happy, So I guess I'm off for it. Well, 1269 01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:08,679 Speaker 1: So I was wondering quickly, why is it that cranberry 1270 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:10,599 Speaker 1: sauce gets so thick like that, you know, you get 1271 01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,559 Speaker 1: the jellied version of the can now in the canned product. 1272 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:17,160 Speaker 1: It's possible that some brands will add further things to 1273 01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,720 Speaker 1: make it hold its shape even better, but that that 1274 01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,639 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be the case, because there are 1275 01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,360 Speaker 1: natural parts of cranberries that will make it gel quite 1276 01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:29,760 Speaker 1: nicely if you just prepare it the right way. Um. 1277 01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,880 Speaker 1: And this is a nice reminder that, like we've been 1278 01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,720 Speaker 1: talking about with with animal products, many of the culinary 1279 01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:40,200 Speaker 1: properties of food are also just straightforwardly the biological properties 1280 01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,040 Speaker 1: of plants and animals. It's a strange thing to remember. 1281 01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,000 Speaker 1: In the case of cranberry sauce. Part of the answer 1282 01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:49,120 Speaker 1: of what makes cranberry sauce gel so thickly and hold 1283 01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:53,120 Speaker 1: its shape is a molecule called pecton. Pecton is a 1284 01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:57,160 Speaker 1: natural polysaccharide that's found in plants, and it works as 1285 01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:02,240 Speaker 1: a type of biological cement. It holds plants cell walls together, 1286 01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:05,559 Speaker 1: and fruits that are high in pectin will release their 1287 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,120 Speaker 1: pectin content as their cells are destroyed through cooking. And 1288 01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:13,559 Speaker 1: this is one reason that longer cooked cranberry sauces tend 1289 01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,639 Speaker 1: to gel together more than a short cooked sauce. Well, 1290 01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,200 Speaker 1: either longer you cook it, you extract more and more 1291 01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:22,519 Speaker 1: of this biological glue that gets all mixed into the 1292 01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,720 Speaker 1: sauce you're making and helps it sort of hold its 1293 01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:28,679 Speaker 1: shape once it sets. Interesting. All right, I know what 1294 01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,479 Speaker 1: what everyone out there is asking at this point, you're saying, 1295 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,800 Speaker 1: what about stuffing? I gotta know about stuffing. Well, we're 1296 01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:36,799 Speaker 1: out of time, so we're not going to do stuffing 1297 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,559 Speaker 1: this year, and maybe we'll do stuffing next year. We 1298 01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:43,160 Speaker 1: need to have portion control on this show. Thanksgiving meal 1299 01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:46,360 Speaker 1: itself is not about portion control, but the show has 1300 01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:49,000 Speaker 1: to be so as far as stuffing goes, maybe we'll 1301 01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,640 Speaker 1: cover it next year. Or maybe you can just go 1302 01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,120 Speaker 1: listen to our episode about pie crete and that'll be 1303 01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:58,280 Speaker 1: close enough to stuffing your taste. It's a low carb 1304 01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:03,800 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving what Everyone's all right? Well, this is this was 1305 01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:05,680 Speaker 1: pretty fun. I got to learn. I got to learn 1306 01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,200 Speaker 1: a few things about turkeys and witch bones that I 1307 01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:10,679 Speaker 1: wasn't familiar with. I got to learn about sacred gravy. 1308 01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:15,120 Speaker 1: This is this has been great. All right, We're gonna 1309 01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,519 Speaker 1: let it go. Then, we hope everybody if you're celebrating Thanksgiving, 1310 01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,360 Speaker 1: or some version of Thanksgiving. We hope that that goes well. Uh. 1311 01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:23,320 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 1312 01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:25,200 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can 1313 01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,960 Speaker 1: find us wherever you get your podcasts and wherever that 1314 01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:30,479 Speaker 1: happens to be. If you have the ability to rate, review, 1315 01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:32,640 Speaker 1: and subscribe to the show, we asked that you do that. 1316 01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,400 Speaker 1: It's a great way to help out the show. Another 1317 01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:37,040 Speaker 1: thing you can do, and this is it's kind of 1318 01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,679 Speaker 1: mostly for fun, is that if you go to stuff 1319 01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:41,320 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com, that will take you 1320 01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:43,439 Speaker 1: to the I heart page for our show. And there's 1321 01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:46,000 Speaker 1: something you can click on there for our store that'll 1322 01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:47,760 Speaker 1: take you to our T shirts store. We have a 1323 01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,479 Speaker 1: number of different designs. You can get them on a 1324 01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:52,599 Speaker 1: sticker or a shirt or what have you face mask 1325 01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:55,400 Speaker 1: I think even now, and there's several different designs there. 1326 01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:57,720 Speaker 1: Some of them are logo and some of them are 1327 01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,720 Speaker 1: some other fun things. We have a new shirt in there. 1328 01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,960 Speaker 1: It's a Pandora shirt that a listener designed for us, 1329 01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,640 Speaker 1: and it's really fun. It's got a Pandora Mokeith and 1330 01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:10,040 Speaker 1: now she's opening the box and it's releasing these various 1331 01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:14,599 Speaker 1: mythological concepts and ideas. It's pretty cool, so yeah, go 1332 01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:16,320 Speaker 1: check check that out. I think there are all sorts 1333 01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:18,360 Speaker 1: of sales going on right now, because of course this 1334 01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:22,040 Speaker 1: time of year, it's just eternally black thread huge things. 1335 01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:25,280 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1336 01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:27,080 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1337 01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,679 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 1338 01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:31,920 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 1339 01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:34,519 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1340 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:44,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 1341 01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,320 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 1342 01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,400 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 1343 01:14:50,400 --> 01:15:07,360 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows the past to propo