1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Today's episode 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: is the next installment in our Six Impossible Episodes series. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: If you are new to the show, sometimes I grouped 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: together six topics that for one reason or another can't 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: really work as a full episode, or sometimes they just 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: worked together as a group. And the last time we 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: did this we talked about mother Goose and nursery rhymes, 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: and I was not planning for the very next one 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: to be more nursery rhymes, but so many people wrote 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: in to say please do more of those that I 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: was like, sure, seems like fun. Last time we talked 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: about who this mother Goose person is anyway, along with 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: the Muffin man ring around, the Rosy Little Jack Corner, 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: Rockabye Baby, and Mistress Mary quite contrary. So if you 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: are curious about the origins of any of those and 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: have not heard that earlier episode that came out on 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: May three of this year, which is in Case to 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: Meet a Refresher, I sure do. And we kicked off 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: that previous Six Impossible Episodes with a caveat, and we're 22 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,279 Speaker 1: going to do the same today. A lot of English 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: language nursery rhymes are more than three hundred years old. 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Most of the ones we're talking about today appeared in 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: some form in Tom Thumb's Pretty Songbook that was first 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: printed in seventy four and is the first known English 27 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: language collection of nursery rhymes. Most but not all nursery 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: rhymes circulated orally for some time before being written down, 29 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: and many also have precursors or influences from other languages 30 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: that are at least as old as the ones that 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: are in English, so they have been around for a 32 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: long time. Aim but it was not until the late 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that people started really studying 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: these poems that came along with a rise in academic 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: interest in folklore. So for the most part, these purported 36 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: explanations for what these poems mean we're first proposed hundreds 37 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: of years after the poems were composed. Katherine Elis Thomas 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,559 Speaker 1: published The Real Personages of Mother Goose in nineteen thirty, 39 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: and that became a pretty big source for a lot 40 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: of these interpretations. While that book does have very extensive 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: cross references to different pieces of literature and historical events, 42 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: all of which are very precisely footnoted. Some of them 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: do seem like kind of a stretch. Many historians in 44 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: folklorists argue that these kinds of interpretations are mostly conjecture. 45 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: You maybe have heard the term backronym. In an acronym, 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: a word is formed out of an abbreviation, like radio 47 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: detection and ranging, becoming the word radar. But a backronym 48 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: takes an existing word that was not created from an 49 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: abbreviation and makes up an abbreviation to go with it. 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: For example, there's the Apgar score, which was named for 51 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: Virginia Apgar, who we've covered on the show before, but 52 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: then people later turned this into a mnemonic for what 53 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: the score evaluates, and that is a list of the 54 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: newborn babies appearance, pulse, grimace, activity, and respiration, which of 55 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: course spell out the word Apgar. So it's possible, or 56 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: maybe even likely, that at least some of these interpretations 57 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: are more like backronyms than actual reflections of what the 58 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: people who made up the rhymes intended for them to mean, 59 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: If in fact, they intended for them to mean anything. 60 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes it seems like they just meant to be silly. 61 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: At the same time, though, these are fun and they 62 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: give us a chance to take a quick look at 63 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: the various historical moments and people in places these poems 64 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: may or may not be related to. So first, up, 65 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: good old Jack and Jill, who went up the hill 66 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and 67 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: broke his crown, and Jill came tumbling after. There is 68 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: a second and probably slightly newer verse that's maybe not 69 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: as well known, which is up Jack got and home 70 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: did trot as fast as he could caper to old 71 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: Dame daub who patched his knob with vinegar and brown paper? 72 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: Had you heard that before, Holly, I feel like I have, 73 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: but I couldn't tell you where because I remember having 74 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: a thought about like, wait, are they saying that he's uh, 75 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: some sort of pinata boy? Like I didn't understand that 76 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: the brown paper situation. It said like a little vinegar 77 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 1: paper Michie going on. I don't think I had, because 78 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: one of the things that we're going to get to 79 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: reference this vinegar and brown paper, And I was like, 80 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Where does this come from? 81 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: Because I had not actually found a second verse written 82 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: out yet so. Starting in the early nineteenth century, in 83 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: addition to those two verses, people started tacking on more 84 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: and more verses and using this as a template for 85 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: pantomimes and plays and illustrations of this nursery rhyme dating 86 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: back over the last couple of centuries. Sometimes Jack and 87 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: Jill are depicted as young children, but sometimes they are 88 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: teens or young adults. The earliest known version of this 89 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 1: poem was printed in Mother Goose's Melody in seventeen sixty five, 90 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: and there are several interpretations or explanations of where it 91 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: came from. First, Kilmursdon in North Somerset, England, is home 92 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: to a Jack and Jill Hill. The path up the 93 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: hill has a set of stone markers that contain lines 94 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: from the poem. Kilmursdon School is at the top of 95 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: the hill and there's a plaque on the side of 96 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: it that was placed in the year two thousand bearing 97 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: the full poem along with the inscription quote. It is 98 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: said that centuries ago Jack and Jill daily went up 99 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: the hill for water. One fateful day, Jack was hit 100 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: by a boulder from nearby Badstone Quarry. He tumbled down 101 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: and suffered a wound that not even vinegar and brown 102 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: paper could mend. Jill also died young, but not before 103 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: she had given birth to the couple's son, whom villagers 104 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: raised and called Jill's son. The surname Gilson still features 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: widely in this area. And that's when I was like, 106 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: what is this vinegar and brown paper thing on the 107 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: side of the school. Some sources pinpoint this story as 108 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: having been something that happened sometime in the fifteenth century, 109 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: and there are also variations in which Jack and Jill 110 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: in this story were a married couple, and then other 111 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: ones where they were going up the hill because they 112 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: were not married and their relationship was a secret and 113 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: they're fetching water was just the pretenses that they could 114 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: have some time alone together. There are also speculations that 115 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: this is a reference to King Louis the sixteen and 116 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: Maria Twinette being beheaded during the French Revolution. The problem 117 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: there is that the king and queen were beheaded in 118 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: sevente that's almost thirty years after this poem appeared in 119 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: print for the first time. Another speculation there is a 120 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: unit of measure that I sure do not use very often, 121 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: which is called the gill, also spelled the jill. This 122 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: unit of measure has been around since sometime in the 123 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: thirteen hundreds, and it was initially used to measure servings 124 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: of things like whiskey and wine. It still exists. It's 125 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: still typically used for liquids, and its exact volume has 126 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: varied over the years. Currently, in the United States it's 127 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: equivalent to half a cup, while in the UK it 128 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: is five British fluid ounces or a fourth of a pint. 129 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: Back in the reign of King Charles the first which 130 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: started in sixty five, a jill was half a jack, 131 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: and a jack was also known as a jackpot. King 132 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: Charles wanted to increase tax revenue, and one way to 133 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: do this was to make liquid measures smaller. People probably 134 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't drink less if they were served a smaller portion. 135 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: They would just buy more of those smaller measures and 136 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: then have to pay a tax on each one. So 137 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: King Charles reduced the size of the jack. In other words, 138 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: jack fell down, and since a jill was half a jack, 139 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: jill came tumbling after. Another idea is that this is 140 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: an English language reference to the North myth of Jukie 141 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: and Bill, who are siblings who follow the moon, or 142 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: perhaps we're stolen away by the moon. They carry a 143 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: pail of water on a pole in between them. Sometimes 144 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: this is interpreted as the dark spots on the moon 145 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: that we see when we look at it from the earth, 146 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: representing Jukie and Bill. The names Jukie and Bill aren't 147 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: really all that far off from Jack and Jill, like 148 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: Jukie and Jack are a little different, but if you 149 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: turn Bill into the same first letter, it's basically the same. 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: So there's some speculation that they these are two versions 151 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: of the same story. William Stewart Baring Gould was probably 152 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: the first person to make this connection in Curious Myths 153 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: of the Middle Ages, which came out in eighteen sixty six. 154 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: On a completely different note, Catherine L. Was Thomas argues 155 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: that this poem is quote a fling at Cardinal Wolsey 156 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: and his coadjutor, Bishop tarb They were going up the 157 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: hill to arrange a marriage between Mary Tudor and the 158 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: French monarch. The pail of water in this interpretation is 159 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: holy water. Among Thomas's citations for this interpretation is a 160 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: poem from harleyan Miscellany published in sixteen sixty one, which 161 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: uses the names Jack and Jill in reference to Wolsey's 162 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: opposition to Henry the Eighth marriage to Anne Boleyn at 163 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: the same time, though the names Jack and Jill have 164 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: really gone together as a pair in English for centuries, 165 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: with the first use and writing dating back more than 166 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: a hundred years before that sixteen sixty one public a. 167 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: And we're going to take a quick sponsor break, and 168 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: then we will get to another poem that may or 169 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: may not have something to do with Cardinal Woolsey. Our 170 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: next rhyme, Old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard to 171 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: get her poor dog a bone. When she got there, 172 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: the cupboard was bare, and so the poor dog had none. 173 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: I think most folks are probably familiar with that bit 174 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: of the poem, but there is a whole whole lot 175 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: more of it than just that first bit. Uh And curiously, 176 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: the rest of the stanzas have fewer lines and a 177 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: slightly different cadence from that first bit. The next stanza 178 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: is she went to the baker's to buy him some bread, 179 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: and when she came back, the poor dog was dead. Okay, 180 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: that's troubling, but don't be alarmed. It's okay. Mother Hubbard 181 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: goes to the undertakers to buy the dog a coffin, 182 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: but when she comes back, he's a laughing. It works out, 183 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: that's fine. Uh. This poem becomes increasingly fanciful, with old 184 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: mother Hubbard bringing the dog some linen, hose, a hat, 185 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: some fruit, a coat, a wig, some tripe, some fish, 186 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: and some wine, and the dog, bless his heart, wearing clothes, 187 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: playing the flute, feeding the cat, riding the goat, dancing 188 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: a jake, smoking a pipe, washing a dish, and standing 189 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: on his head. It's a lot. Uh, it's really kind 190 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: of fun back and forth that way through many stanzas. 191 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: It starts out with me feeling like she's not the 192 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: best pet caretaker, but then by the end, I'm like, oh, 193 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: they're both bananas. It's okay, yeah, there they both have 194 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: a lot going on here. So in terms of nursery 195 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: rhyme authorship, this one's a little unusual, especially in terms 196 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: of what we've talked about in uh this couple of episodes, 197 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: we're actually pretty sure who wrote this and when, and 198 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: it has that in common with Mary Had a Little Lamb, 199 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: which Sarah Josepha Hale published in eighteen thirty. We have 200 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: talked about that on the podcast before Old Mother Hubbard 201 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: first appears as The comic Adventures of Old Mother Hubbard 202 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: and her Dog by Sarah Catherine Martin, published on June first, 203 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: eighteen o five. As the story goes, Martin was in 204 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: her thirties and she was visiting her sister, and her 205 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: future brother in law became really annoyed because she kept 206 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,599 Speaker 1: trying to talk to him while he was trying to 207 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: do something else. So he told her in a really 208 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: insulting way to go write a poem or something. So 209 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: she did, and that poem became what's known as Old 210 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: Mother Hubbard. Even though the eighteen o five version is 211 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: the first printed version of the full poem we know today, 212 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: it may have had some earlier inspirations. Mother Hubbard was 213 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: already something of a stock character long before this, dating 214 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: back at least to Edmund Spencer's fifty nineties satire Prosopopoia 215 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: or Mother Hubbard's Tail. Although this piece features the name 216 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: Mother Hubbard, there is no dog and there's no bone 217 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: in a cupboard. There are also some parallels to a 218 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: poem that was published in Gammer Girton's Garland in four 219 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: This one references an old woman who quote lived upon 220 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: nothing but victuals and drink. When the woman in this 221 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: poem goes off to the baker to buy some bread, 222 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: and she comes home to find her husband dead, not 223 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: her dog. But then after she goes to the clerk 224 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: to toll the bell for him, she comes back home 225 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: again to find her husband. Well, that's not the only 226 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: indication that there may have been earlier versions of at 227 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: least the first few stanzas of Old Mother Hubbard. Coffin 228 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: doesn't rhyme with laughing, but it does rhyme with laffin, 229 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: which was used to mean laughing in the works of 230 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: such writers as William Shakespeare. So it is possible that 231 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: the first three stances are so already existed in some form, 232 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: and that Martin built on them at the start of 233 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. And as we said back before the break, 234 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: there's some suggestion that this circles back around to Cardinal 235 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: Thomas Wolsey. The interpretation here is that all those things 236 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: that Mother Hubbard brings to her dog, and all of 237 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: her dog's responses recreate the back and forth between Wolsey 238 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: and the Pope when Wolsey was trying and failing to 239 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: negotiate a divorce for Henry the eighth than Catherine of 240 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: Aragon and the real personages of Mother Goose Katherine Elis. 241 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Thomas cites the tragedy of Cardinal Wolsey that was first 242 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: printed in the Mirror for Magistrates in seven and that 243 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: includes a reference to a dog and a bone, And 244 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: then there are also some other sixteenth century satires that 245 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: call the cardinal by the name Jack. Today, there is 246 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: a cottage in Devon known as Old Mother Hubbard's Cottage, 247 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: purportedly where Martin lived when she wrote the poem. Part 248 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: of the lore surrounding that cottage is that she was 249 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: working as a housekeeper at nearby Kittley House. But Martin 250 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: was also reportedly the daughter of a member of Parliament 251 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: and the one time love interest of King William the 252 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: Fourth while he was a prince, so there is some 253 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: question about whether she would have gotten a job as 254 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: a housekeeper. Yeah, so we will move on from there 255 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: to Bob Bob black Sheep. Have you any wool? Yes, sir, yes, 256 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: their three bags full, one for the Master and one 257 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: for the Dame, and one for the little boy who 258 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: lives down the lane. That's probably the version of that 259 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: that most people are most familiar with. Sometimes people sing 260 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: it to the same basic tune as Twinkle Twinkle, Little 261 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: Star or the Alphabet song. This poem has stayed pretty 262 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: much the same for almost three hundred years since its 263 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: first appearance in Tom Thumb's Pretty Song Book in se 264 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: except that version ends with but none for the little 265 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: boy who cries in the lane, so it's a little 266 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: bit sadder. Most of the purported historical meanings for this 267 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: poem have to do with taxes. One is the so 268 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: called Great Custom, which was a tax on wool that 269 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: Parliament granted to Edward the First of England in twelve 270 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: seventy five. So in this poem, the sheep is saying, 271 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: there's wool for the master, that being the King, and 272 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: the Dame that being the landlord, and none for the 273 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: poor child. Katherine Ellis Thomas puts forth the same basic 274 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: idea that connects it to a different era, that being 275 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: the reign of Edward the sixth and the Norfolk Rising 276 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: of fifteen forty nine, which was also known as Cat's Rebellion. 277 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: This rebellion was connected to landowners inclosing common land, which 278 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: meant that tenants no longer had space for grazing their animals, 279 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: including their sheep. Then the same basic idea is the same, 280 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: that the master and the Dame were the king and 281 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: the nobility, and that the little boy represented the common people. 282 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: Since about the nineteen eighties, various people have raised questions 283 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: about whether this poem has a racial component or a 284 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: connection to the Transatlantic slave trade. Since the sheep is 285 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: described as black, the term black sheep has been used 286 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: as an idiom meaning outcast or a disreputable person since 287 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: at least sixteen forty. The idea of black sheep is 288 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: somehow different from other sheep also appeared in English translations 289 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: of the Christian Bible at least a century before that. 290 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: All the black lambs in a flock are gathered up 291 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: as part of someone's wages in the Book of Genesis. 292 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that this may be the 293 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: idioms origin, although the color is not always translated as 294 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: black in these verses and the animals are not always 295 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: translated as being sheep, but the word black has been 296 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: used to describe both people of African descent and things 297 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: that are thought of as evil or wicked for more 298 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: than a thousand years. Both of those meanings go all 299 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: the way back to early Old English. So while this 300 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: poem probably was not originally meant as a reference to 301 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: the Transatlantic slave trade, and the word black in there 302 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: might have just been for the sake of it being 303 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: alliterative with the bob bob heart, at this point those 304 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: connotations are pretty deeply entrenched in the English language. So 305 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: next another poem, London Bridge is falling down, falling down, 306 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: falling down. London Bridge is falling down, my fair lady. 307 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: Early versions of this poem have London Bridge broken down 308 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: rather than falling, and there are a lot more verses 309 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: about what materials should be used to build it back 310 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: up again, and why all of those materials will not work, 311 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: like quote, build it up with wooden clay, wooden clay, 312 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: wooden clay, wooden clay will wash away, my fair lady. 313 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: From there it's bricks and mortar which will not stay, 314 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: and then iron and steel which will bend in bow, 315 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: and silver and gold which will be stolen away. The 316 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: states an even more nonsensical turn, because rather than finding 317 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: a more suitable bridge material than silver and gold, the 318 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: proposed solution is to set a man to watch all 319 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: night to make sure nobody steals it. But since there's 320 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: a chance that the man might fall asleep, that suggested 321 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: that he'd be given a pipe to smoke. Sure, it's 322 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: sort of like there's a hole in my bucket, Dear Liza, 323 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: but about structural engineering, um and smoking keeping people away. 324 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: This is another poem that was in Tom Thumb's Pretty Songbook, 325 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: and earlier versions have slightly different second and fourth lines 326 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: of each stanza, as in London Bridge is broken down, 327 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: dance over my Lady Lee, London Bridge is broken down 328 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: with a gay lady. It's possible that the Lady Lee 329 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: is meant to be the River Lee, which is a 330 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: tributary of the Thames. But there are also pieces of 331 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: this poem that date back even earlier than Tom Thumb's 332 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: Pretty Songbook and the London Shanta Clears, which was first 333 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: printed in sixteen fifty nine. There's some dialogue about dancing 334 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: the building of the London Bridge, and there are ref 335 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: princes to other London Bridge dances that date back to 336 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: the early eighteenth century, although the dances themselves don't survive. 337 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: There's also a seventeen twenty five satire called namby Pamby, 338 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: and in that there are the words Namby Pamby is 339 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: no clown, London Bridge is broken down. Now he courts 340 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: the gay lady dancing or the lady lee. There is 341 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: a lot of speculation that this rhyme references a real 342 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: destruction of London Bridge, or, if not London Bridge, some 343 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: other bridge in or near London, but it's usually not 344 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: identified as the damage that came from the Great Fire 345 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: of London in sixteen sixty six or the burning of 346 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: London Bridge in eleven thirty five that led to the 347 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: bridge being rebuilt with stone. Instead, it's usually proposed to 348 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: be an attack by King Olaf the second of Norway 349 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: in ten fourteen, something that is referenced in Norse accounts 350 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: but not in early English ones. We're gonna take a 351 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break, and when we cut back, we're going 352 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: to talk about two more rhymes, both of which are 353 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: just a little bit more violent, one maybe a lot 354 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: more violent. We mentioned in our previous nursery rhyme Impossible 355 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: episodes that nursery rhymes can be really strange and scary 356 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: and violent. There's just so much falling down and a 357 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: lot of head injuries. It's like a precursor to every 358 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: short story that Flannery O'Connor wrote. Kind of Yeah, ify's 359 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: head breaks open, so we're gonna end onto more dramatic 360 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: examples of this. The first is Ladybird ladybird, which in 361 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: the US we usually called ladybug ladybug, because that's what 362 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: we call that insect. This is another poem that appears 363 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: in Tom Thumb's Pretty Songbook, and this one goes, ladybird, ladybird, 364 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: fly away home. Your house is on fire and your 365 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: children are gone, or sometimes your house is on fire 366 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: and your children will burn. There's also a slightly longer 367 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: and probably newer version that offers some hope that not 368 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: all of Ladybird's children are burned, are gone, ending all 369 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: except one, and her name is Anne, and she hid 370 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: under the baking pan. There are some variations on this, 371 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: like in Yorkshire, England, ladybirds were known as lady cows, 372 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: or in Norfolk they were Bernie bee, and there was 373 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: a rhyme that went Bernie b Bernie beats. Tell me 374 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: when your wedding beat, if it be tomorrow day, take 375 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: your wings and fly away. I love that. The most 376 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: straightforward interpretation of this is that it's almost like saying 377 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: bless you or gazuntite when someone sneezes. In many parts 378 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: of Europe, ladybugs or ladybirds if that's where they're called 379 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: where you live, have been associated with the Virgin Mary 380 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: for centuries. That lady in ladybird is our lady. So 381 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: in that cultural and religious tradition, if a ladybug lands 382 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: on you, you you should take special care not to cause 383 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: it any harm. So you can recite this poem, gently 384 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: blow on the insect and send it on its way. 385 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: But there's also a BBC article that claims that this 386 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: poem is about quote sixteenth century Catholics and Protestant England 387 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: and the priests who were burned at the stake for 388 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: their beliefs. Uh. This article doesn't cite any sources for 389 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: that claim, but logically the connection that our Lady is 390 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: a common name for the Virgin Mary and Catholicism and 391 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: the poem involving fire is where that comes from. Of 392 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: all the things we have talked about today, this one 393 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: is like the least documented as far as how people 394 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: got from point A to point B, and lastly, the 395 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: most directly violent of the nursery rhymes, at least in 396 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: terms of what we're talking about today. It is who 397 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: killed cock Robin? And although that question an axe, as 398 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: both the first line and the title, there is no 399 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: mystery about who did it. The killer is named right away, 400 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: Who killed cock Robin? I said the sparrow with my 401 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: bow and arrow, I killed cock Robin. From there we 402 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: find out there were witnesses to this killing quote who 403 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: saw him die? I said the fly with my little eye, 404 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: I saw him die, and some versions the fly has 405 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: a little teeny. I also one of the animals caught 406 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: cock Robin's blood as he was dying. In some versions 407 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: this is the duck, which was just his luck, and 408 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: in others it was the fish with his little dish. 409 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why you'd want to catch it, but okay, yeah. 410 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: It turns out this is secretly about vamporism among animals. 411 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: From there, the animals go on to plan cock Robin's funeral, 412 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: with the beatle making the shroud with a thread and needle, 413 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: the owl digging his grave with a pick and trowel, 414 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: the rook with this little book being the parson, the 415 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: dove acting as chief mourner, either because she'd previously mourned 416 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: for her love or because cock Robin was her love. Animals, 417 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: many of them birds, all have roles. Most of the 418 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: animals are small, although the bull is the one who 419 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: tolls the bell. Sometimes this is illustrated as a bull, 420 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: but in others it is a bull finch. Some versions 421 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: of this poem and with all the animals sighing and 422 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: sobbing when the bell tolls for poor cock Robin, but 423 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: others have a few more lines after that quote, while 424 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: the cruel cock sparrow, cause of their grief, was hung 425 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: on a gibbet next day like a thief. So this 426 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: is such a weird poem for kids. Uh. It goes 427 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: beyond Jack and Jill falling down, or even a cradle 428 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: falling out of a treetop, to just straightforward murder. It's 429 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: first four verses were in Tom Thumb's Pretty Songbook, with 430 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: the first line reading who did kill cock Robin? Since 431 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: that first publication there have been a lot of standalone 432 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: books and chat books, many of them very dramatically illustrated. 433 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: Death and Burial of Poor cock Robin, printed in eighteen 434 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: sixty five, is illustrated with animal heads on fully dressed 435 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: mostly human bodies, but others have the animals simply as animals, 436 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: many starting off with a picture of a dead Robin 437 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: on his back pierced through with an arrow. For some reason, 438 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: I find that eighteen sixty seven illustration with the animal 439 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: heads on human bodies just profoundly disturbing. Oh, I love it. 440 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: We can talk more about this in the behind the scenes. 441 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: There are also other versions of this that build out 442 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: the back story with the courtship and a marriage between 443 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: cock Robin and Jenny Wren before a hawk ab ducts 444 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: Jenny Wren and then cock Robin gets murdered, and then 445 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: there are sequels as well which tell the story of 446 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: cock Robin's trial and execution. William Stewart baring Gould's The 447 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: Annotated Mother Goose speculates that this rhyme might be much 448 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: older than seventeen forty four, since the earliest versions read 449 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: I said the owl with my pick and a shovel, 450 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: which doesn't rhyme now, but it would have in earlier 451 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: eras it's the same sort of logic as that coffin 452 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: laughing rhyme from Old Mother Hubbard. Another possible clue that 453 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: it might be much older is the existence of a 454 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: stained glass window and Buckland Rectory, Gloucester, which dates back 455 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: to the fifteenth century. It depicts a robin that has 456 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: been shot through the heart with an arrow. There are 457 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: also some parallels to the Book of Philip Sparrow by 458 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: John Skelton, which dates back to fifteen o eight, but 459 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: even if this poem does date back to the fifteenth 460 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: or sixteenth century, it's possible that it saw renewed popularity 461 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century thanks to Sir Robert Walpole. Walpole 462 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: was hugely influential in British politics and effectively served as 463 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: Prime Minister from about seventeen one to seventeen forty two, 464 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: making him Britain's first prime minister, even though that term 465 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: was not formally used in Parliament yet. He became increasingly 466 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: unpopular starting in about seventeen thirty seven, and that downward 467 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: slide continued after Britain went to war with Spain in 468 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: the War of Jenkins ear in seventeen thirty nine. Walpole 469 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: finally resigned on February two, seventeen forty two, at which 470 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: point the King named him first Earl of Orford. He 471 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: remained influential after this point, but the heyday of his 472 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: time in the government was over. That period of more 473 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: than twenty years became known as the robin Ocracy, and 474 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: it ended just a couple of years before cock Robin 475 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: first appeared in Tom Thumb's Pretty Songbook. William Stewart Barren 476 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: Gould is one of the people who suggest that maybe 477 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: cock Robin is supposed to represent Walpole and this poem 478 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: is about his political downfall. Peter and Iona Opie make 479 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: the same suggestion in the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes. 480 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: There is also a totally different interpretation Shin, and that's 481 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: that this is a retelling of the death of the 482 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: Norse god Balder, son of Odin, who was killed when 483 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: Loki convinced Hodd to throw some mistletoe, mistletoe being the 484 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: only thing that could hurt Balder. Hodd was blind, so 485 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: he didn't know what he was throwing the mistletoe at, 486 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: or in some versions, what he was shooting with an 487 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: arrow tipped in mistletoe. Who killed cock Robin is described 488 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: as having some similarities to earlier versus recounting this tale, 489 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: but the ones that Tracy found all came along later. Yes, 490 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: I went on a search trying to figure out, like 491 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: what maybe eighteenth century version of this poem was there, 492 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: and I kept finding nineteenth century versions and I was like, 493 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: this doesn't help. Another speculation is that this is about 494 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: the death of Robin Hood, which I just found really 495 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: charming considering that Disney's nineteventy three Robin Hood film is 496 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: also anthropomorphins. Also, the death and Burial of cock Robin 497 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: was the first Exidermy tableau of past podcast subject Near 498 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: and Dear to my heart Walter Potter, we are bringing 499 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: that out as a Saturday classic, Okay. I thought that 500 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: would be a fun follow on to this particular episode. 501 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: Those are our six nursery rhymes for this time around. 502 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure we will talk more about cock Robin in 503 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: the behind the scenes because um, I have just number 504 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: of thoughts. Uh until that points, I have listener mail 505 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: that is from Virginia, and Virginia wrote, Hello, Tracy and Holly. 506 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: I've been leefully listening to the podcast since and have 507 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: wanted to write in for a long time. Then this 508 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: week Olivia Ward bush Banks episode, the moment came as 509 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: I listened to the episode on my lunch break around 510 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. You mentioned a quote from the Pittsburgh Courier newspaper, 511 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: and I had a little embarrassing shuffle dance upon hearing 512 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: the name and one of my master's classes, I came 513 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: upon the Pittsburgh Courier as a reference for a paper 514 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: and simply fell in love with the new paper. For 515 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: the next sixteen months, I took every opportunity to research, read, 516 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: and write about this little known, historic black newspaper. Being 517 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: from Pittsburgh, I'm always going to look out to learn 518 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: more about my hometown and how this newspaper has played 519 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: several low key but still important parts in several important 520 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: events during the Double V campaign, the civil rights movement, 521 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: the integration of professional sports, and helping the middle class 522 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: African American community develop and display their identity. Some many 523 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: important names have been tied to this newspaper staff Wendel Smith, P. L. Prattus, 524 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 1: Frank E. Bolden, George Schiler, and cartoonists who depicted cartoons 525 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: that showed comical and commentary aspects of African American communities. 526 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: They also hired the wonderful Charles Teeny Harris, a photographer 527 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: whose photos have served as important depictions of everyday life 528 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: in the Pittsburgh black neighborhoods. Known for his charisma, Harris 529 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: could make his portrait subjects feel so at ease that 530 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: they would forget the camera was present. Then he would 531 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: take the picture to capture a truly beautiful moment. My 532 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: favorite picture is a little boy in extra large boxing 533 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: gloves sitting in his corner a single tier his rolled 534 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: down his cheek, but he has the sweetest smile on 535 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: his face and an impish twinkle in his eye. And 536 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: then Virginia had a link to that picture. His eighty 537 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: thousand collection of negatives and photographs were thankfully purchased by 538 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: the Carnegie Museum of Art and as part of their 539 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: digitizing project, along with a permanent exhibit of his works. 540 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: While there might not be enough information to do a 541 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: full episode on teeny Harris, I would wholeheartedly encourage you 542 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: to consider him for one of the impossible episodes you 543 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: may be planning in the future. I can promise you 544 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: that you'll get pulled down the delightful research rabbit hole 545 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: that I have happily hopped down myself, to a beautiful 546 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: land of nineties and fifties community photos. Please please keep 547 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: up all your amazing work. Thank you so much for 548 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: all you do, Virginia. Thank you so much for this email. Virginia. 549 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 1: I did indeed click on that link, and that photo 550 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: is beauty full, and then I lost some time in 551 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: the morning when I was meant to be researching instead 552 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: looking at these gorgeous, gorgeous photographs. So thank you so 553 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: much for sending this. If you would like to write 554 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: to us about this or any other podcast, we are 555 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: at History podcast that I heart radio dot com, and 556 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: we're all over social media at Missed in History. That's 557 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: why you'll find our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram. And 558 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: you can subscribe to our show on the I heart 559 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: radio app and anywhere else you like to get your podcasts. 560 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of 561 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. 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