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Speaker 1: Captain Rong.
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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week and Beyond Contact,
Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
Speaker 3: the newest.
Speaker 4: Cases as we talked with the top experts. Welcome to
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron, and today we have two
Speaker 4: friends returning to the show. They have each individually been
Speaker 4: doing great work in the space and now together they
Speaker 4: are two of the co founders of Ontocolypse Productions. That's
Speaker 4: Kelly Chase and Jay Christopher King, the two people behind
Speaker 4: the new series called Cosmosis, UFOs and a New Reality.
Speaker 4: Hey guys, great to see you.
Speaker 5: Hey Ron, thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 4: So good to be here. Of course, we're looking forward
Speaker 4: to Contact in the Desert. You guys are going to
Speaker 4: be there this year. It's going to be a lot
Speaker 4: of fun.
Speaker 6: Absolutely can't wait. We've been talking about it. Actually my
Speaker 6: favorite event of the year. Yeah, it's an absolute blast.
Speaker 4: Awesome. So I watched the first three episodes of your
Speaker 4: series and I really enjoyed it. It was very refreshing
Speaker 4: to me because you guys actually took an entirely new,
Speaker 4: honest approach to this phenomenon, kind of like I expected
Speaker 4: you would, you know, I find it very refreshing that
Speaker 4: it's not just another one of these UFO docs that
Speaker 4: rehashes versions of what we've already heard and what we
Speaker 4: already know, but rather I found it to be a
Speaker 4: very honest, hard look at the UFO phenomenon and the
Speaker 4: different anomalies and the different ways we probably should be
Speaker 4: looking at this topic. You can tell you guys put
Speaker 4: a lot of work into this and a lot of
Speaker 4: thought about how to craft that. What was that like?
Speaker 5: Oh gosh, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 6: Ron, I really appreciate that, you know, it's been It
Speaker 6: was a really long journey, and I think, you know,
Speaker 6: Jay and I kind of spent about eighteen months from
Speaker 6: start to finish on this project really trying to figure
Speaker 6: out what it was going to be, because we wanted
Speaker 6: to create something that was accessible to, you know, people
Speaker 6: who are newer to this topic. But we also didn't
Speaker 6: want to just be treading the same trails over and
Speaker 6: over and over again. We wanted to do what we
Speaker 6: could to move the conversation forward, and to do so
Speaker 6: in a way that experiencers and other people in the
Speaker 6: community you've been studying this stuff for a long time,
Speaker 6: felt sort of seen and represented, and it wasn't just
Speaker 6: kind of the same old news clippings that we've been
Speaker 6: rehashing for the past, you know, several years.
Speaker 4: Now. We see that all the time, So that really
Speaker 4: was an awesome part for me. You know. In this series,
Speaker 4: you guys also explore this larger notion, one that I've
Speaker 4: actually been expressing a lot on this very show lately,
Speaker 4: and that's that government disclosure is not this simple quick
Speaker 4: thing that people think it ought to be, Like here's
Speaker 4: the aliens, and here's the ships, and that's it. If
Speaker 4: we suddenly became apparent to one hundred percent of the
Speaker 4: population that everyone understands that the UFO phenomenon is now
Speaker 4: indeed real, then all of our trusted legacy institutions that
Speaker 4: we've come to rely on to understand our world for
Speaker 4: years and years and years, the government, media, academia, all
Speaker 4: of these suddenly were completely wrong and you're faced with
Speaker 4: questioning everything they told us.
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, Our second episode in Cosmosis is very much
Speaker 7: along those lines, examining like how do we accept what's true?
Speaker 7: How do we kind of like trust legacy institutions, academia,
Speaker 7: you know, the government, it startups, science, anything along these lines,
Speaker 7: like how do we trust these people? How do we
Speaker 7: find trust? How do we find out our beliefs? Like
Speaker 7: how do we find out about our own world? And
Speaker 7: you know, as Kelly mentions in the second episode, you know,
Speaker 7: we don't have to know how to change our oil
Speaker 7: in our car because our mechanic does. We don't have
Speaker 7: to know how to fix a broken arm because our
Speaker 7: doctor does, right, and we trust each other. But then
Speaker 7: what happens when that trust starts to break down? And
Speaker 7: what we see in this subject is that there's such
Speaker 7: a range of things that you can really zero in
Speaker 7: on that are of utmost importance to us, not just
Speaker 7: as individuals, but as a culture, as a society. There
Speaker 7: are so many people that want to focus and very
Speaker 7: understandable on the cover up, the giant cover up that
Speaker 7: has existed in various world governments for seventy years, eighty years,
Speaker 7: you know, possibly a lot longer than that, in various societies.
Speaker 7: And at the same time, we have to recognize that
Speaker 7: the national security state is not about transparency and it
Speaker 7: never has been right. And so how do we look
Speaker 7: at that? Is there a way to look at this
Speaker 7: phenomenon more directly with fresh eyes? Can we study this ourselves, Like,
Speaker 7: how do we approach this without looking at the Rubik's cube,
Speaker 7: without looking at like the crazy rat mas the four
Speaker 7: D chess game that is the national security state? Is
Speaker 7: there a way around that? Is there a way to
Speaker 7: really kind of embrace this stuff on our own and
Speaker 7: really like look at each other, compare notes with each other,
Speaker 7: and like make progress because it seems to me and
Speaker 7: I know, you know, I don't want to speak for Kelly,
Speaker 7: but we have to take an all roads approach to
Speaker 7: these issues for sure.
Speaker 4: You know, you guys also look at how government secrecy
Speaker 4: might be far more complicated and far more intentional than
Speaker 4: I think most people believe. It's the way the UFO
Speaker 4: secret was handled. It's not just a matter of deny
Speaker 4: every time someone says, hey, I saw a UFO, Well
Speaker 4: deny that. But rather it's an orchestrated perception management for
Speaker 4: the public at large to not believe this. If you
Speaker 4: stigmatize this subject and make people afraid to talk openly
Speaker 4: about it, which made this cover up possible, it's not
Speaker 4: really a secret as much as it's a conditioning to
Speaker 4: just ignore it all together.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think that's a great assessment of the situation.
Speaker 6: And I think what makes that so complicated is that,
Speaker 6: you know, now we're left kind of asking questions about,
Speaker 6: you know, what can we do outside of that, Like
Speaker 6: how can we possibly make sense of things when we
Speaker 6: know that so much of the information that we've gotten
Speaker 6: about this topic has been so sullied.
Speaker 5: By that cover up?
Speaker 6: And also, you know, even as disclosure moves forward, like
Speaker 6: Jay and I both very much support disclosure, I think
Speaker 6: getting our government to be more transparent with us about
Speaker 6: really anything, especially this topic is extremely important, I mean
Speaker 6: really exactly exactly, and we're all about that. The problem
Speaker 6: becomes that at a certain point we let the disclosure
Speaker 6: narrative kind of subsume the conversation about ufology and what
Speaker 6: this thing actually is and most of the information that
Speaker 6: we're getting about it, and that the information that people
Speaker 6: tend to take the most seriously is that information that's
Speaker 6: coming to us through the military intelligence apparatus, which are
Speaker 6: the same people who've been lying to us from the beginning.
Speaker 6: And if they've changed their minds and now they suddenly
Speaker 6: want to start telling us more about it, it's probably
Speaker 6: not because they're having a crisis of conscience, and probably
Speaker 6: because it serves some other function or answers some other
Speaker 6: risk that's emerged.
Speaker 8: But the thing, the information we're getting from them is
Speaker 8: not transparency. It's just information that they would like us.
Speaker 4: To have exactly. It's not. And in fact, you guys
Speaker 4: point that out very specifically, Kelly. The way you cite
Speaker 4: that Paul Benowitz's case, the famous case, which I think
Speaker 4: is the one that Richard Dody talks about as well,
Speaker 4: and he came forward about all of his involvement with that.
Speaker 4: This shows how it isn't simply just denial. Instead, it's
Speaker 4: an intentional manipulation of someone's beliefs. They let him think
Speaker 4: that he was seeing an ET and they acted like
Speaker 4: they were working with him, but in fact they were
Speaker 4: feeding him disinformation the entire time. This is really disturbing. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 7: I mean he was near an Air Force base in Albuquerque,
Speaker 7: and you know, Greg Bishop in his great book Project
Speaker 7: Beta really goes into this case and a lot of depth,
Speaker 7: and we have Greg in for the show to talk
Speaker 7: about it, and Daniel Alzando and Kelly and I both
Speaker 7: kind of amplify that a bit. Paul Benowitz, he was
Speaker 7: a good citizen. He saw weird stuff in the sky
Speaker 7: around the air Force base and he chose to report it,
Speaker 7: and it got him into giant amounts of trouble because
Speaker 7: all of a sudden there were these disinformation agents like
Speaker 7: Richard Dody, who Greg believed to be like other factions
Speaker 7: through the NSA, that were actually actively disinforming him. They
Speaker 7: handed him in a computer and he built an antenna,
Speaker 7: and they started feeding him these wild messages that seemed
Speaker 7: to be from off world intelligences and here trade themselves
Speaker 7: as such.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all that people onion, like you're explaining here. To me,
Speaker 4: it's almost more scary to think that they could manipulate
Speaker 4: you like that than facing a real alien.
Speaker 6: No, I think it is terrifying, and I think it's
Speaker 6: something that we need to take more seriously. We actually
Speaker 6: went back and forth about whether or not we would
Speaker 6: even include Richard Doty in that story, because he has
Speaker 6: a major character in the Paul Benowitt story and we
Speaker 6: as he is in a lot of stories about disinformation.
Speaker 6: But we ended up deciding not to. Yeah, no, we didn't.
Speaker 6: We didn't mention him, and I think part of the
Speaker 6: reason we decided to do that was I think sometimes
Speaker 6: it's really easy for us to have boogeyman, you know,
Speaker 6: and to take all of these kind of nefarious activities
Speaker 6: and to assign them to one individual and say, oh,
Speaker 6: he's bad. And what we really wanted to emphasize was
Speaker 6: not like, here's Richard Doughty and he did some bad things,
Speaker 6: but rather, this is how the system works. The system
Speaker 6: works to both produce and encourage doties.
Speaker 4: You made an excellent choice by doing that, and then
Speaker 4: I come in here and spill it, Oh, that was
Speaker 4: Richard Doty. I didn't mean Oh no, No, it's a.
Speaker 5: Good part of the conversations. He's a huge part of
Speaker 5: the story.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, it is a part. Yeah, and we knew we
Speaker 7: were going to amplify it in situations like this on
Speaker 7: podcasts and appearances later. You know, there's kind of like
Speaker 7: the core meat of the show Cosmosis itself that's going
Speaker 7: to start conversations like this one where we can really
Speaker 7: dig into the details and we can really kind of
Speaker 7: like sift through that and amplify things and start to
Speaker 7: like send people down those wonderful UFO rabbit holes that
Speaker 7: Kelly has charged it out, so well, thanks mad him
Speaker 7: to say that.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 4: Listen, when we come back, we're going to talk to
Speaker 4: Jay and Kelly some more about how the government may
Speaker 4: be hiding the truth and specifically about Errow, the organization
Speaker 4: that was supposedly here to provide transparency for us on
Speaker 4: the topic. Ha ha. Anyway, you're listening to Beyond Contact
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.
Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Jay,
Speaker 4: Christopher King, and Kelly Chase about their new series, Cosmosis,
Speaker 4: UFOs and a new reality. Kelly I found it very
Speaker 4: interesting in the piece when you pointed out that arrow
Speaker 4: spent I think it was one hundred thousand investigating the
Speaker 4: topic of UFOs, but they spent over a million dollars
Speaker 4: to hire a PR agency to control the messaging. This
Speaker 4: is very telling, Yes.
Speaker 5: Yeah, isn't it though? Yeah, that one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 6: It was for a joint study with NASA, which in
Speaker 6: and of itself is a little bit funny because I
Speaker 6: think NASA probably has a lot more out there, like
Speaker 6: NASA all of a sudden being like, Ash, we should
Speaker 6: really look into the UFO thing. It's like a little
Speaker 6: bit funny objectively, but still it seems like a good
Speaker 6: use of funds. But only one hundred thousand dollars. That's
Speaker 6: like a press release and some snacks like I don't
Speaker 6: know what you're going to do with that. But they
Speaker 6: spent one point nine million dollars on contracting with an
Speaker 6: organization that does like perception management for.
Speaker 8: The DoD That's what they do.
Speaker 6: It's what it says on their website, and so it
Speaker 6: feels like all you have to do is follow the
Speaker 6: money and you know where people's priorities are.
Speaker 4: It's very very telling and very scary to me. You know,
Speaker 4: Arrow has been clearly nothing more than a disinformation campaign
Speaker 4: from my view. You guys interviewed a witness in your
Speaker 4: series and he testified to them for four hours. I
Speaker 4: think it was. And we all know others who have testified.
Speaker 4: We've all interacted with these people, the government and military
Speaker 4: guys who give their full testimony to Arrow. And then
Speaker 4: Ero comes out with a statement saying there's nothing at
Speaker 4: all to indicate anything of an et nature that must
Speaker 4: hurt these guys. And you know, they could have come
Speaker 4: on out and said it's not definitive, we are not
Speaker 4: one hundred percent sure what's happening. That's fine. I don't
Speaker 4: know what's happening. I don't think you guys know. I
Speaker 4: don't know anybody that knows what's happening. But to flat
Speaker 4: out say nothing was offensive to me, not just that.
Speaker 7: But I went down It was one of the few
Speaker 7: shoots that Kelly didn't go on. I think it was
Speaker 7: the only shoot that Kelly didn't go on actually for
Speaker 7: the whole series. I went down to well an undisclosed
Speaker 7: location with Jordan Flowers or one of our other EPs,
Speaker 7: and we shot with Mario woods, like an incredible UFO witness,
Speaker 7: very pertinent to so many things, including the recent quote
Speaker 7: unquote Jersey drones, this whole kind of flap that's been
Speaker 7: happening recently over military installations and other places like pickets
Speaker 7: in the arsenal agus and others. And Mario was faced
Speaker 7: with this back in nineteen seventy seven. He was guarding
Speaker 7: a nuclear launch facility in South Dakota and he saw
Speaker 7: a giant fireboot ball that he describes as the size
Speaker 7: of a Walmart building, which is quite evocative and maybe
Speaker 7: tells you where he lives in the world, not in
Speaker 7: the middle of New York City like some of us.
Speaker 7: And he saw beings there and like they were right
Speaker 7: over a launch facility, I mean right over where these
Speaker 7: missiles come out of the doors. And he disappeared. They
Speaker 7: couldn't find him for hours, and his jeep showed up
Speaker 7: in the middle of the mud and snow with no
Speaker 7: tire tracks around it, miles from where they disappeared. It's
Speaker 7: an extraordinary case. You know, this is a guy who's
Speaker 7: very plugged in with people like Robert Hastings and Robert Solace.
Speaker 7: They're all very conversant. They talk to each other. You know,
Speaker 7: Robert Hastings of course, who wrote the seminal text UFOs
Speaker 7: and Nukes, and Mario he showed me while I was there,
Speaker 7: he showed me and Jordan the correspondence between him and
Speaker 7: Arrow and it went back and forth, and Arrow was
Speaker 7: blowing so much smoke to Mario about like, you know,
Speaker 7: what it would do and how they needed his testimony
Speaker 7: and what they would do with it and this, that
Speaker 7: and the other thing. And we were able to show
Speaker 7: one of those docs on the show, and that was
Speaker 7: an exclusive for us that I really appreciate Mario giving
Speaker 7: to us. But like you know, these are liars. They're
Speaker 7: not just liars to the public in general. And they're
Speaker 7: not just doing this for perception management. I mean these
Speaker 7: are institutional level liars. That's what they do there. And
Speaker 7: this whole like facade where it's like, oh, Kirkpatrick, he's
Speaker 7: you know, he moved on to Oak Ridge, and so
Speaker 7: we've got another guy. And then you have these ex military,
Speaker 7: these ex intelligence X intelligence, as if that's even a thing.
Speaker 7: They sit there and they say, oh, well there's a
Speaker 7: new guy. Let's give them another year and let's see
Speaker 7: what happens. And it's like, how long are we going
Speaker 7: to hit How long are we going to hit fresh
Speaker 7: and repeat on this? How long are we going to
Speaker 7: be lying to and allow these people to say, like,
Speaker 7: let's give him more time, Let's give him more time.
Speaker 7: We know what they're doing and it's.
Speaker 4: Forever because they did it with grunge, they did it
Speaker 4: with you know, blue book, all of these sign This
Speaker 4: has been going on since the dawn of the modern
Speaker 4: UFO era and it's just discussed to me, and I
Speaker 4: think it's getting worse and worse today as social media
Speaker 4: is clearly being used to manipulate perceptions by the public,
Speaker 4: foreign adversaries purposely trying to infiltrate our social media and
Speaker 4: persuade people. I think it's done right here at home.
Speaker 4: I'm sure that we feed this beast specifically on this topic,
Speaker 4: and we can see how easily people can be manipulated
Speaker 4: by being fed disinformation that has played out before all
Speaker 4: of us in the last five years. So ultimately, I
Speaker 4: think this is headed in the wrong direction. It's going
Speaker 4: to get a lot worse, not better, with the proliferation
Speaker 4: of deep fakes and AI. What do you guys think?
Speaker 5: No, I completely agree. I think that in some ways.
Speaker 6: We've always been our own worst enemy in the UFO community,
Speaker 6: you know, because we are so networked to each other,
Speaker 6: and because it's such a small community, and because everyone's
Speaker 6: so hungry for more information that we've always been kind
Speaker 6: of ripe for that in terms of intelligence, you know, infiltration.
Speaker 6: But social media is absolutely ramped it up to a
Speaker 6: whole other level. And I don't think that there's nearly
Speaker 6: enough conversation going on in our communities about how do
Speaker 6: we kind of have hygiene in both like the personal
Speaker 6: and the community level where we're kind of stepping back
Speaker 6: and trying to keep ourselves from getting to you know,
Speaker 6: as we're bringing all of this stuff in. You see,
Speaker 6: like anytime there's new piece of information or like a
Speaker 6: new person who claims to be a whistleblower, or you know,
Speaker 6: a new something that's released, everyone descends like filters.
Speaker 5: And we're like no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 6: But in doing that by jumping on things so immediately,
Speaker 6: by always feeling like we need to offer an opinion
Speaker 6: or to come down on a side, or like decide
Speaker 6: who's right and wrong on these things, and like kind
Speaker 6: of the topic of the day that comes out in
Speaker 6: the community I think that we're kind of doing the
Speaker 6: intelligence community's job for them in terms of muddying the waters.
Speaker 8: And I think at a community level it would really.
Speaker 6: Behoove us to have more conversations about how to handle
Speaker 6: this stuff better.
Speaker 4: I can imagine people just loving it sitting back that
Speaker 4: are doing this because we, like you said, do the
Speaker 4: work for them and disseminate that and fight over it
Speaker 4: and everything. You know, in fairness, this does happen not
Speaker 4: just in our community, Like even I've heard how they
Speaker 4: talk about this in the sports world, how they're all
Speaker 4: fighting to be the first to release that this guy's
Speaker 4: going to get signed by this company for this night,
Speaker 4: and they're all fighting to be that one because you've
Speaker 4: got to follow this guy who's going to have the
Speaker 4: information first. And it's great that this information is being
Speaker 4: shared by a lot of people and not just coming
Speaker 4: from the top. But on the other hand, it's getting
Speaker 4: really kind of messy now, and it's just going to
Speaker 4: get worse in my view. You know, another interesting point
Speaker 4: that someone made on your doc that some of the
Speaker 4: secrecy is unintentional, which is something that I have never
Speaker 4: thought about. I thought that was novel. People naturally don't
Speaker 4: like talking about things that we don't understand, and we
Speaker 4: typically don't like sharing those things with others. Now, I
Speaker 4: personally think the exact opposite of that. There's no point
Speaker 4: in talking about what we know, anything that's been discovered
Speaker 4: or known to me. It's like, well, it's already out there.
Speaker 4: Whatever I want to talk about the unknown.
Speaker 7: Well, I think that's what sets people like you and
Speaker 7: Kelly and I and many of your listeners apart from
Speaker 7: the general kind of consensus reality out there.
Speaker 4: Hoth my listeners, yeah, all of them, all of them.
Speaker 7: Yeah, No, I think that. You know, sometimes it's it's
Speaker 7: a conscious bias towards wanting to kind of shave off
Speaker 7: the inconvenient details. You see something really weird, you see
Speaker 7: what seems to be a ghost, and like something else happens.
Speaker 7: You hear a voice, or there's something that seems to
Speaker 7: be connected to it, but you can't make a rational
Speaker 7: connection for somebody else that makes any sense because all
Speaker 7: of this stuff, you know, it's all under the rubric
Speaker 7: of high strangeness. Right, we need to talk about it
Speaker 7: because we need a fuller picture. People will sit there
Speaker 7: and they'll be like, ah, I don't know, like I
Speaker 7: feel like these two things are connected. This thing happened,
Speaker 7: and then two weeks later, this other thing happened. I
Speaker 7: can't draw a rational connection, So how can I tell
Speaker 7: somebody else? It'll just make it sound more crazy. And
Speaker 7: so people self edit and sometimes like your brain even
Speaker 7: you know, depending on the level of cortisol and your
Speaker 7: brain and or cortisol pumping through your body and other
Speaker 7: things like this, like people well or yes, it could
Speaker 7: be that. But like regardless of whether somebody sober, tired,
Speaker 7: or in some other their state, the brain has a
Speaker 7: magical ability to essentially take out the trash when we
Speaker 7: find ourselves in a situation that's incredibly stressful. This happens
Speaker 7: in car accidents, this happens when people fall off ladders.
Speaker 7: This happened. Trauma and people have heart attacks, any kind
Speaker 7: of trauma. And for the brain to see something that's
Speaker 7: so against a conception of reality, it seems to have
Speaker 7: a similar response in certain situations with high strangeness. And
Speaker 7: so people will have this kind of patchy memory of
Speaker 7: this stuff as well. And so then there's the aspect
Speaker 7: of like it's half there and it's half not there,
Speaker 7: Like I shouldn't mention that either. But you know, it's
Speaker 7: important to remember that, like for years people would see grays,
Speaker 7: people would ask like what kind of clothes they were wearing,
Speaker 7: and people would be embarrassed to say, like, well, it
Speaker 7: didn't look like they were wearing clothes, And so for
Speaker 7: years in the literature that was something that was less
Speaker 7: reported on because it just seems so wild that like
Speaker 7: there would be some being and then that it wouldn't
Speaker 7: be wearing clothes.
Speaker 4: You know, hilarious. You have this encounter something from another world,
Speaker 4: whatever that world may be, and this is your concern.
Speaker 4: We're going to take a quick break there, guys. When
Speaker 4: we come back, we're going to talk more to Jay
Speaker 4: and Kelly about some of the strange occurrences and how
Speaker 4: they're more prevalent than we realize, and also how these
Speaker 4: things parallel mainstream religion. Oftentimes you're listening to Beyond Contact
Speaker 4: and the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast am Paranormal podcast network.
Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Jay
Speaker 4: King and Kelly Chase. We were talking about how these
Speaker 4: strange occurrences happen to people, and this was an interesting
Speaker 4: thing that I thought came through your series for me
Speaker 4: was that in general, we don't think societally that these
Speaker 4: strange occurrences happen very often. In fact, I think the
Speaker 4: average person on the street probably thinks that they happened
Speaker 4: to a very select few, many of whom are crazy.
Speaker 4: But when you talk to each individual, you find it
Speaker 4: incredible how often nearly everyone has some type of strange
Speaker 4: occurrence in their life, not necessarily a full blown UFO
Speaker 4: alien abduction case, but a strange, unexplainable experience. Nonetheless, stories
Speaker 4: of ghosts as you mentioned, Jay, or cryptids, and all
Speaker 4: of these things go back thousands of years.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think that for us that was something that
Speaker 6: we really wanted to get across. So I'm glad that
Speaker 6: I'm glad that it did come across, because you know,
Speaker 6: I've had such a strange experience with this myself. Jay
Speaker 6: is somebody who's a lifelong experiencer, but I'm someone who
Speaker 6: only came to this in the last few years and
Speaker 6: started to really take it seriously, and even going through
Speaker 6: my own process, it's wild to me that I saw
Speaker 6: a UFO when I was thirteen years old, but then
Speaker 6: I spent the rest of my life up until just
Speaker 6: a few years ago when I started taking this seriously,
Speaker 6: thinking that UFOs weren't real.
Speaker 5: How do you square those things?
Speaker 6: And as you begin to sort of unpass all of
Speaker 6: these things I think most people have, whether it's synchronicities,
Speaker 6: it's some sort of an encounter with or communication from
Speaker 6: a dead loved one, you know, all of these things
Speaker 6: in the course of our day to day lives. The
Speaker 6: walls of our reality tend to be very solid, and
Speaker 6: yet there are these kind of breakthrough moments, but they
Speaker 6: happen so briefly. They usually happen around trauma or a
Speaker 6: bunch of other things going on in your life. And
Speaker 6: I think it's really easy to just sort of like
Speaker 6: skip past that part and just be like, well, I
Speaker 6: don't think about that too much, and you just assume
Speaker 6: that you're wrong somehow and you carry on. But I
Speaker 6: think that once people get more educated about the structure
Speaker 6: and the content of these experiences, how they take place,
Speaker 6: what it's like, how it impacts people that they start to.
Speaker 5: Recognize in their own life. They're like, oh, something like.
Speaker 8: That did happen to me. I just didn't have a
Speaker 8: way to like categorize it or explain it.
Speaker 4: Agreed one hundred percent. You know, it's interesting also how
Speaker 4: this phenomenon seems to parallel religions far more closely than again,
Speaker 4: I think most people want to accept. There's a moment
Speaker 4: in your piece where Jeffrey Kreipwall makes an amazing comment
Speaker 4: to me. I thought it was great where he says,
Speaker 4: in the ancient world, when we hear someone say, oh,
Speaker 4: they came down from the sky and they called it religion,
Speaker 4: but when somebody says that exact same thing today they
Speaker 4: call it a crazy person. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And I mean Jeff Kreipel has made such an
Speaker 7: amazing career and has really contributed to the field, contributed
Speaker 7: not just to our field, not just to the paranormal,
Speaker 7: not just to uthology, but to religious studies all together,
Speaker 7: and even to just like the social sciences at large.
Speaker 7: I mean, he's really respected as such a figure these
Speaker 7: days within the social sciences community. You know, he chairs
Speaker 7: the department at RICE, He's been the dean of Humanities
Speaker 7: down there in the past. You know, Jeff really takes
Speaker 7: this stuff incredibly seriously and even thinks that this is
Speaker 7: really the future of social sciences at large. You know,
Speaker 7: whether it's anthropology, whether you're looking at religious study theology,
Speaker 7: you know, psychology. There are so many aspects of the
Speaker 7: soft science, as they're sometimes called, that really could be
Speaker 7: well informed by the history of anomalous phenomena. And it's
Speaker 7: absolutely true. I'm so glad that we have Diana Pisalka
Speaker 7: on cosmosis, so glad that we have Jeff Kreipel on cosmosis,
Speaker 7: and Stephen Finley, doctor Stephen Finley, who contributes incredibly well
Speaker 7: to cosmosis. People that really look at religious studies, because
Speaker 7: if we're looking at something that impacts culture at the
Speaker 7: level of myth and that it's passed around by anecdote
Speaker 7: and it affects our belief system so much, that's exactly
Speaker 7: what religious studies scholars do. We're not just like sitting
Speaker 7: there and talking to a priest. We're talking about the
Speaker 7: people that study the Catholic Church, that study these religions
Speaker 7: and how they operate. There's a difference there, There's a
Speaker 7: nuance there that people need to really understand. We're not
Speaker 7: throwing these two things together. We're using the advantages of
Speaker 7: these experts that look at belief systems incredibly important when
Speaker 7: you're dealing with a phenomenon like this.
Speaker 4: I felt even before I got into this topic eleven
Speaker 4: years ago, my whole life, I had a hard time
Speaker 4: squaring how people that believe in this kind of a thing,
Speaker 4: UFOs and whatnot were crazy, But people that believe these
Speaker 4: things that happen in religion and all of those things
Speaker 4: that are take magic is accepted. You know. I was
Speaker 4: immediately reminded when I heard that quote by Kreipel of
Speaker 4: something that Whitley talks about in Communion. Actually, when he
Speaker 4: compared the stories from thousands of years ago, how there'll
Speaker 4: be an account, and it was that the fairies came
Speaker 4: down from the trees, and he described these beings with
Speaker 4: the big eyes and these little guys. Then you turn
Speaker 4: the page and it's like a modern day abduction story
Speaker 4: about these beings came down from the sky. It very well,
Speaker 4: maybe the exact same experience that's happening, but we're seeing
Speaker 4: it through a different lens. We live in the space
Speaker 4: age a thousand years ago that was way beyond the
Speaker 4: way of thinking.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 6: I think it's if we lose track of our history
Speaker 6: that we end up losing a lot of the phenomenon.
Speaker 6: When we deal with the unknown, we're kind of left grasping.
Speaker 8: For whatever can.
Speaker 6: Septual tools or ideas or memes are most available to us,
Speaker 6: and so inevitably these encounters with things that are so
Speaker 6: far beyond our understanding end up being wrapped in sort
Speaker 6: of the cultural zeitgeist of the day, and it introduces
Speaker 6: a subjectivity into the experience. I think that can make
Speaker 6: it really challenging for us to tackle because we're comparing
Speaker 6: these things that are very similar but that are different
Speaker 6: that change over time. As tough as that is, I
Speaker 6: think that like coming to terms with like, Okay, that's
Speaker 6: the reality of what we're dealing with here, So how
Speaker 6: do we approach this? It's about not demanding that the
Speaker 6: data conforms to our expectations of the kind of data
Speaker 6: that we would like to work with, but instead looking
Speaker 6: at the data as it exists and trying to be
Speaker 6: innovative about how we're going to approach it in a
Speaker 6: way that we can make progress.
Speaker 4: You know, you guys also illustrate how anyone who's had
Speaker 4: one of these experiences, or those like me who have
Speaker 4: just trust the data from experiencers, can really have a
Speaker 4: personal paradigm shift in their way of thinking. They often
Speaker 4: can have a whole new worldview based on these experiences,
Speaker 4: and often it goes well beyond just the UFO aspect
Speaker 4: of this. People sometimes experience additional phenomenon like telepathic abilities, precognition, levitation,
Speaker 4: other sigh related effects.
Speaker 7: It's interesting, right, because there's a bit of a chicken
Speaker 7: in the egg situation here. Did the initial experience kind
Speaker 7: of break open somebody's head in such a way that
Speaker 7: they became more perceptually aware of this range of these
Speaker 7: kinds of edge states, these edges of perception, Yeah, as
Speaker 7: a causal like that. And then there are other folks,
Speaker 7: for example Gary Nolan, who's the head of the pathology
Speaker 7: department at Stanford University and it's quite a prominent figure
Speaker 7: in the field these days. He also puts forward that
Speaker 7: there might be differences in the brains of people that
Speaker 7: are having these experiences regardless of modality, like multi modality experiencers.
Speaker 7: You know how some people their second toe is longer
Speaker 7: than their first hour ear lobes or something like this.
Speaker 7: And there's such a study even from the intelligence community,
Speaker 7: but also now among researchers about these family lines. You
Speaker 7: know that we find these family lines of experiencers that
Speaker 7: can go back generations, like we show on cosmosis, the
Speaker 7: case of Courtney lafal him. We see one of his
Speaker 7: sons on the show, we see his grandmother. They're all experiencers,
Speaker 7: and they're all multi modality experiencers. Courtney and his grandmother
Speaker 7: they saw a UFO together when Courtney was a child,
Speaker 7: and then that opened up a conversation in the family
Speaker 7: where she was able to tell him that she and
Speaker 7: other family members had seen UFOs in the past. With
Speaker 7: that and other experiences, it really not just like opened
Speaker 7: up the conversation among the family in a way that
Speaker 7: could engender a sense of honesty and openness about all
Speaker 7: these things, making people closer together, more intimate, but it
Speaker 7: also kind of opened up Courtney's worldview. He felt allowed
Speaker 7: to look at this stuff. And as he felt maybe
Speaker 7: allowed to look at this stuff and was able to
Speaker 7: kind of embrace it on that level. He found this stuff,
Speaker 7: he found more things. He found situations of mediumship, He
Speaker 7: found situations of precognition, culture, geist, activity, and so much else.
Speaker 4: You know, we also can't separate out consciousness from the
Speaker 4: UFO phenomenon. In fact, aspects of the afterlife also seem
Speaker 4: clearly related to the phenomenon.
Speaker 6: Some way right, absolutely, and I think we're only just
Speaker 6: coming to terms with what that really means. You know,
Speaker 6: we definitely have this sense that there's this connection. I
Speaker 6: think experiencers in particular have a real experiential understanding that
Speaker 6: this has something to do with consciousness and with the afterlife,
Speaker 6: you know, all of these things that we're really not
Speaker 6: talking about one phenomenon, but kind of a meta phenomenon
Speaker 6: that encompasses all of these different, unknown and often ignored
Speaker 6: aspects of.
Speaker 8: Human experience and just what it means to be alive.
Speaker 6: You know, the science is finally starting to catch up
Speaker 6: in terms of our understanding of consciousness and quantum mechanics
Speaker 6: and the structure of the universe that are going to
Speaker 6: not just allow us but force us to look at
Speaker 6: our reality differently. And I think that in beginning to
Speaker 6: understand that that more about the UFO phenomenon is going
Speaker 6: to begin to make sense to us. And so like,
Speaker 6: there could be a more exciting time, I think, to
Speaker 6: be studying these things, because I think we're about to
Speaker 6: make progress in a place where we've been stymied for
Speaker 6: a while.
Speaker 4: God, I hope. So when we come back, we're going
Speaker 4: to talk to Jay and Kelly Moore about the deeper
Speaker 4: complexities of the UFO phenomenon that go well beyond just
Speaker 4: a spacecraft flying in from another solar system. You're listening
Speaker 4: to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Speaker 4: AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact
Speaker 4: talking to Jay and Kelly here. As j points out,
Speaker 4: many of the current modalities we have on this topic
Speaker 4: all have their flaws. We may be encountering something so
Speaker 4: much more beyond the scales of what we can even
Speaker 4: currently grasp, right. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 7: There's a wonderful philosopher named James Madden that we were
Speaker 7: able to bring onto the show. He's done incredible work.
Speaker 7: He recently published a book called Unidentified Flying hyper Object
Speaker 7: where he really kind of gets into this idea and
Speaker 7: many other ideas. But one of these ideas is that
Speaker 7: when we talk about UFOs, we often focus on the
Speaker 7: unidentified part, and we often focus on the flying part,
Speaker 7: but we don't look at the object part. And according
Speaker 7: to him, like that may be an issue because getting
Speaker 7: into the kind of like the philosophy of this, like
Speaker 7: what is an object? Are we making assumptions about what
Speaker 7: an object is? And especially with something like that can
Speaker 7: appear as a nuts and bolts craft versus like orb
Speaker 7: phenomena or something even more vaporous than that. You know,
Speaker 7: maybe we have been making some overboard assumptions about what
Speaker 7: we really term as an object or what kinds of
Speaker 7: classes of objects we're looking at, And so with him,
Speaker 7: he's talking about things like a hyper object is a
Speaker 7: situation where there's an object that operates on such a
Speaker 7: grand scale, And often this is something that we wouldn't
Speaker 7: think of as an object, like, for example, a pizza
Speaker 7: restaurant is an example that's using the show. You could
Speaker 7: replace all the things in a pizza restaurant and it
Speaker 7: would still be considered by the people in the neighborhood
Speaker 7: as the same pizza restaurant. You know, the employees could
Speaker 7: change the ovens, could change everything like that, but we
Speaker 7: still think of it as the same pizza hut, whatever
Speaker 7: you have there. If you go bigger than that, there's
Speaker 7: the corporation level, or like there's the economy, and these
Speaker 7: are things that are so big, These are concepts that
Speaker 7: are so big we articulate them as a thing the economy,
Speaker 7: but we can't really grasp even the best economists, they
Speaker 7: can't understand at any given moment what the heck the
Speaker 7: economy is truly doing on every single layer at any
Speaker 7: one particular time. And what he's suggesting that essentially, it's
Speaker 7: possible that anomalous phenomenon that UFOs et cetera, could be
Speaker 7: operating on such a grand scale that it is functioning
Speaker 7: akin to that, like the economy, a situation that we're
Speaker 7: trying to wrap our heads around with these edge states,
Speaker 7: something that may be absolutely impossible for our human minds
Speaker 7: to completely wrap our arms around.
Speaker 4: It's an interesting way of thinking, it really is. One
Speaker 4: other takeaway that I had was that we do not
Speaker 4: have to wait for the government to spoon feed us
Speaker 4: these answers. But the phenomenon is everywhere if you look,
Speaker 4: and we should just be more open about sharing our
Speaker 4: strange experiences with one another, not afraid to talk about them,
Speaker 4: then perhaps would be able to get closer to the answers.
Speaker 4: Hopefully this series will provoke a dialogue. Was that part
Speaker 4: of your mission?
Speaker 6: Yes, from the very beginning, I think of all the
Speaker 6: things that we wanted to accomplish, that that I think
Speaker 6: was first and foremost in our minds. Jay and I
Speaker 6: really believe in this sort of punk rock d ui
Speaker 6: d u I dy.
Speaker 4: Approach to let's bring up Kelly, let's.
Speaker 5: Keep it on Brodian flip.
Speaker 6: No, listen, the intelligence community, they're not even necessarily doing
Speaker 6: something bad or nefarious. Like we've set up these institutions
Speaker 6: to protect us in certain ways. Their job isn't to
Speaker 6: like reveal the secrets of the universe to us. Their
Speaker 6: job is to keep us safe and mitigate risk, figure
Speaker 6: out what those risks are before we do, and never
Speaker 6: tell us about it so we can all go about
Speaker 6: having our lives. Which isn't to say that they haven't
Speaker 6: done bad things also, but I mean, I think the
Speaker 6: real point is that, like we're asking for something from
Speaker 6: the intelligence apparatus that's like it's fundamentally not set up
Speaker 6: to do.
Speaker 8: In fact, it's set up to do the opposite of that.
Speaker 6: It seems like the whole conversation has gotten caught in
Speaker 6: the jaws of this disclosure narrative that's being run, for
Speaker 6: better or for worse by the intelligence community, you know,
Speaker 6: to us, it seems like you should just you can
Speaker 6: just go around like you just literally don't have to
Speaker 6: let that be the center of the conversation. But what
Speaker 6: we're talking about is understanding a non human intelligence or
Speaker 6: potentially many of them in our interaction with those things.
Speaker 6: And the thing that we're supposed to believe about this
Speaker 6: within the disclosure narrative is that, like, the best data
Speaker 6: that we can have is data that's given us to
Speaker 6: us by other people that they can either confirm nor
Speaker 6: deny about the vehicles that these things ride around in.
Speaker 6: And it's like, but why wouldn't we just go talk
Speaker 6: to the people who've interacted with these things anything.
Speaker 4: If you talk about refrigerator repair, go talk to the
Speaker 4: guy who repairs refrigerators. Why you're waiting for some guy
Speaker 4: who won't tell you about refrigerators and says he doesn't
Speaker 4: know anything. Why do we wait for them? It's a
Speaker 4: great analogy, Kelly, It really is. I think some people
Speaker 4: in this community, we do entertain what the experienceers have
Speaker 4: to say, and we do take them at their word,
Speaker 4: and we are open to their things. But I think
Speaker 4: in general, most of the people in the world, certainly
Speaker 4: in our country, aren't necessarily as invested in this topic,
Speaker 4: do you know. I think that's part of it. You know,
Speaker 4: I felt this piece was so great and I thought
Speaker 4: Whitley was just fantastic in it. It's kind of come
Speaker 4: full circle for him because this is gaining some strength
Speaker 4: and some momentum and he should get his day.
Speaker 7: You know, Whitley is such a legend. I mean, for
Speaker 7: so many different reasons. Communion of Course was such an
Speaker 7: early and important seminal work in the field. It really
Speaker 7: busted with him and Bud Hopkins work at the outset
Speaker 7: between that and like Missing Time and Intruders, they really
Speaker 7: just the doors open on this topic as far as
Speaker 7: the abduction phenomenon, as far as like interaction things like that.
Speaker 7: You know, Whitley was such a trailblazer and he continues
Speaker 7: to be a trailblazer. I mean, his recent book Them
Speaker 7: absolutely incredible in terms of looking at the high strangeness
Speaker 7: effects and the kind of inconvenient details that we're really
Speaker 7: talking about on the show. Them was a huge, huge
Speaker 7: inspiration both Kelly and I in working on the kind
Speaker 7: of like groundwork that we laid for the show. As
Speaker 7: a new book, the Fourth Mind, that really gets into
Speaker 7: the grays, and I'm really looking forward to the conversation
Speaker 7: around that later this year. It's going to be absolutely
Speaker 7: wonderful to hear from him that way. But yeah, I
Speaker 7: mean he deserves every accolade. He deserves to have this resurgence,
Speaker 7: and it's so absolutely wonderful to see, you.
Speaker 4: Know, Jay, I remember, I mean that this is what
Speaker 4: got me. People always ask, and it was Communion that
Speaker 4: first got me interested in This was that specific book,
Speaker 4: and I do remember even then, right when it came
Speaker 4: out whatever it was eighty five, mid eighties, My spidey
Speaker 4: sense was tingling when I read on the back, how
Speaker 4: you know he's a science fiction writer, and I thought, well, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, he could have just made this whole thing up.
Speaker 4: What I love is here we are forty years later.
Speaker 4: This guy not only has he not retracted a story
Speaker 4: or anything, he has stayed in this community. He has
Speaker 4: stuck to everything, and he is still to me the forefront.
Speaker 4: He makes very poignant comments that are very interesting and
Speaker 4: make me reflect on these possibilities. And I think he's
Speaker 4: as important now as he was when he came out
Speaker 4: with Communion, and that's to me, that kind of solidifies
Speaker 4: him more.
Speaker 7: You guys are to.
Speaker 4: Contact in the Desert.
Speaker 6: Yes, it's honestly my favorite event.
Speaker 5: We had so much fun last year. It was absolutely
Speaker 5: a blast.
Speaker 6: I love the location, the resort where it's held, because
Speaker 6: it's just it's like exactly big enough and exactly small
Speaker 6: enough that you know you can get away. But also
Speaker 6: it's so easy to kind of get in the mix
Speaker 6: with all the speakers and the attendees, and I think
Speaker 6: like it's just the most fun.
Speaker 8: I really love it.
Speaker 4: Jay was telling me before before you came on, Kelly,
Speaker 4: that you're going to do a juggling act for us
Speaker 4: this year. Is that true?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, good.
Speaker 7: I feel like for a lot of the speakers, especially
Speaker 7: when they do hosting duties or other things like that,
Speaker 7: I mean, and for yourself, Ron, I mean Ron Captain
Speaker 7: Ron is doing juggling act that whole long weekend basically,
Speaker 7: you know, of contact in the desk, I have.
Speaker 4: Seen that weekend for me. Thanks a lot, guys. I
Speaker 4: really appreciate you guys coming on. It was a lot
Speaker 4: of fun talking about this. I could do it for hours.
Speaker 4: I really recommend everyone out there watch Cosmosis, UFOs and
Speaker 4: a New Reality, and it really gives a new honest
Speaker 4: approach to the way we perhaps should be thinking about
Speaker 4: UFOs and the phenomenon and not just face value like
Speaker 4: we've been over the years. It's available on Apple TV
Speaker 4: and on Prime. You can find more about Jay and
Speaker 4: Kelly at on tocolps dot com, O N T O
Speaker 4: C A L Y P s E dot com. Now,
Speaker 4: thanks for listening to be on Contact. We'll be back
Speaker 4: next week with an all new episode. You can follow
Speaker 4: me Captain Ron on Twitter and Instagram at c I
Speaker 4: T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out
Speaker 4: Contact indeedeesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational as
Speaker 4: we explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and
Speaker 4: Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
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