1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural, 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Captain Rong. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself. 11 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week and Beyond Contact, 12 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of 13 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from 14 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: the newest. 15 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 4: Cases as we talked with the top experts. Welcome to 16 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 4: Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron, and today we have two 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 4: friends returning to the show. They have each individually been 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 4: doing great work in the space and now together they 19 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 4: are two of the co founders of Ontocolypse Productions. That's 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 4: Kelly Chase and Jay Christopher King, the two people behind 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 4: the new series called Cosmosis, UFOs and a New Reality. 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 4: Hey guys, great to see you. 23 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 5: Hey Ron, thanks so much for having us. 24 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 4: So good to be here. Of course, we're looking forward 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 4: to Contact in the Desert. You guys are going to 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 4: be there this year. It's going to be a lot 27 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 4: of fun. 28 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 6: Absolutely can't wait. We've been talking about it. Actually my 29 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 6: favorite event of the year. Yeah, it's an absolute blast. 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 4: Awesome. So I watched the first three episodes of your 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 4: series and I really enjoyed it. It was very refreshing 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 4: to me because you guys actually took an entirely new, 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 4: honest approach to this phenomenon, kind of like I expected 34 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: you would, you know, I find it very refreshing that 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 4: it's not just another one of these UFO docs that 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 4: rehashes versions of what we've already heard and what we 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 4: already know, but rather I found it to be a 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 4: very honest, hard look at the UFO phenomenon and the 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 4: different anomalies and the different ways we probably should be 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 4: looking at this topic. You can tell you guys put 41 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 4: a lot of work into this and a lot of 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 4: thought about how to craft that. What was that like? 43 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 5: Oh gosh, well, thank you so much. 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 6: Ron, I really appreciate that, you know, it's been It 45 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 6: was a really long journey, and I think, you know, 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 6: Jay and I kind of spent about eighteen months from 47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 6: start to finish on this project really trying to figure 48 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 6: out what it was going to be, because we wanted 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 6: to create something that was accessible to, you know, people 50 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 6: who are newer to this topic. But we also didn't 51 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 6: want to just be treading the same trails over and 52 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 6: over and over again. We wanted to do what we 53 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 6: could to move the conversation forward, and to do so 54 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 6: in a way that experiencers and other people in the 55 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 6: community you've been studying this stuff for a long time, 56 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 6: felt sort of seen and represented, and it wasn't just 57 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 6: kind of the same old news clippings that we've been 58 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 6: rehashing for the past, you know, several years. 59 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 4: Now. We see that all the time, So that really 60 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 4: was an awesome part for me. You know. In this series, 61 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 4: you guys also explore this larger notion, one that I've 62 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 4: actually been expressing a lot on this very show lately, 63 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 4: and that's that government disclosure is not this simple quick 64 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 4: thing that people think it ought to be, Like here's 65 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 4: the aliens, and here's the ships, and that's it. If 66 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 4: we suddenly became apparent to one hundred percent of the 67 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 4: population that everyone understands that the UFO phenomenon is now 68 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 4: indeed real, then all of our trusted legacy institutions that 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 4: we've come to rely on to understand our world for 70 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: years and years and years, the government, media, academia, all 71 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 4: of these suddenly were completely wrong and you're faced with 72 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 4: questioning everything they told us. 73 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, Our second episode in Cosmosis is very much 74 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 7: along those lines, examining like how do we accept what's true? 75 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 7: How do we kind of like trust legacy institutions, academia, 76 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 7: you know, the government, it startups, science, anything along these lines, 77 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 7: like how do we trust these people? How do we 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 7: find trust? How do we find out our beliefs? Like 79 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 7: how do we find out about our own world? And 80 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 7: you know, as Kelly mentions in the second episode, you know, 81 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 7: we don't have to know how to change our oil 82 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 7: in our car because our mechanic does. We don't have 83 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 7: to know how to fix a broken arm because our 84 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 7: doctor does, right, and we trust each other. But then 85 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 7: what happens when that trust starts to break down? And 86 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 7: what we see in this subject is that there's such 87 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 7: a range of things that you can really zero in 88 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 7: on that are of utmost importance to us, not just 89 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 7: as individuals, but as a culture, as a society. There 90 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 7: are so many people that want to focus and very 91 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 7: understandable on the cover up, the giant cover up that 92 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 7: has existed in various world governments for seventy years, eighty years, 93 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 7: you know, possibly a lot longer than that, in various societies. 94 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 7: And at the same time, we have to recognize that 95 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 7: the national security state is not about transparency and it 96 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 7: never has been right. And so how do we look 97 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 7: at that? Is there a way to look at this 98 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 7: phenomenon more directly with fresh eyes? Can we study this ourselves, Like, 99 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 7: how do we approach this without looking at the Rubik's cube, 100 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 7: without looking at like the crazy rat mas the four 101 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 7: D chess game that is the national security state? Is 102 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 7: there a way around that? Is there a way to 103 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 7: really kind of embrace this stuff on our own and 104 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 7: really like look at each other, compare notes with each other, 105 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 7: and like make progress because it seems to me and 106 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 7: I know, you know, I don't want to speak for Kelly, 107 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 7: but we have to take an all roads approach to 108 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 7: these issues for sure. 109 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 4: You know, you guys also look at how government secrecy 110 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 4: might be far more complicated and far more intentional than 111 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 4: I think most people believe. It's the way the UFO 112 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 4: secret was handled. It's not just a matter of deny 113 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 4: every time someone says, hey, I saw a UFO, Well 114 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 4: deny that. But rather it's an orchestrated perception management for 115 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 4: the public at large to not believe this. If you 116 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 4: stigmatize this subject and make people afraid to talk openly 117 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 4: about it, which made this cover up possible, it's not 118 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 4: really a secret as much as it's a conditioning to 119 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 4: just ignore it all together. 120 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think that's a great assessment of the situation. 121 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 6: And I think what makes that so complicated is that, 122 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 6: you know, now we're left kind of asking questions about, 123 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 6: you know, what can we do outside of that, Like 124 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 6: how can we possibly make sense of things when we 125 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 6: know that so much of the information that we've gotten 126 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 6: about this topic has been so sullied. 127 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 5: By that cover up? 128 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 6: And also, you know, even as disclosure moves forward, like 129 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 6: Jay and I both very much support disclosure, I think 130 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 6: getting our government to be more transparent with us about 131 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 6: really anything, especially this topic is extremely important, I mean 132 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 6: really exactly exactly, and we're all about that. The problem 133 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 6: becomes that at a certain point we let the disclosure 134 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 6: narrative kind of subsume the conversation about ufology and what 135 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 6: this thing actually is and most of the information that 136 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 6: we're getting about it, and that the information that people 137 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 6: tend to take the most seriously is that information that's 138 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 6: coming to us through the military intelligence apparatus, which are 139 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 6: the same people who've been lying to us from the beginning. 140 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 6: And if they've changed their minds and now they suddenly 141 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 6: want to start telling us more about it, it's probably 142 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 6: not because they're having a crisis of conscience, and probably 143 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 6: because it serves some other function or answers some other 144 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 6: risk that's emerged. 145 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 8: But the thing, the information we're getting from them is 146 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 8: not transparency. It's just information that they would like us. 147 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 4: To have exactly. It's not. And in fact, you guys 148 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 4: point that out very specifically, Kelly. The way you cite 149 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 4: that Paul Benowitz's case, the famous case, which I think 150 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 4: is the one that Richard Dody talks about as well, 151 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 4: and he came forward about all of his involvement with that. 152 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 4: This shows how it isn't simply just denial. Instead, it's 153 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 4: an intentional manipulation of someone's beliefs. They let him think 154 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: that he was seeing an ET and they acted like 155 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 4: they were working with him, but in fact they were 156 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 4: feeding him disinformation the entire time. This is really disturbing. Yeah, absolutely. 157 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 7: I mean he was near an Air Force base in Albuquerque, 158 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 7: and you know, Greg Bishop in his great book Project 159 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 7: Beta really goes into this case and a lot of depth, 160 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 7: and we have Greg in for the show to talk 161 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 7: about it, and Daniel Alzando and Kelly and I both 162 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 7: kind of amplify that a bit. Paul Benowitz, he was 163 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 7: a good citizen. He saw weird stuff in the sky 164 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 7: around the air Force base and he chose to report it, 165 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 7: and it got him into giant amounts of trouble because 166 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 7: all of a sudden there were these disinformation agents like 167 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 7: Richard Dody, who Greg believed to be like other factions 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 7: through the NSA, that were actually actively disinforming him. They 169 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 7: handed him in a computer and he built an antenna, 170 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 7: and they started feeding him these wild messages that seemed 171 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 7: to be from off world intelligences and here trade themselves 172 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 7: as such. 173 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, all that people onion, like you're explaining here. To me, 174 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 4: it's almost more scary to think that they could manipulate 175 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 4: you like that than facing a real alien. 176 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 6: No, I think it is terrifying, and I think it's 177 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 6: something that we need to take more seriously. We actually 178 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 6: went back and forth about whether or not we would 179 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 6: even include Richard Doty in that story, because he has 180 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 6: a major character in the Paul Benowitt story and we 181 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 6: as he is in a lot of stories about disinformation. 182 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 6: But we ended up deciding not to. Yeah, no, we didn't. 183 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 6: We didn't mention him, and I think part of the 184 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 6: reason we decided to do that was I think sometimes 185 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 6: it's really easy for us to have boogeyman, you know, 186 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 6: and to take all of these kind of nefarious activities 187 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 6: and to assign them to one individual and say, oh, 188 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 6: he's bad. And what we really wanted to emphasize was 189 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 6: not like, here's Richard Doughty and he did some bad things, 190 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 6: but rather, this is how the system works. The system 191 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 6: works to both produce and encourage doties. 192 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 4: You made an excellent choice by doing that, and then 193 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 4: I come in here and spill it, Oh, that was 194 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 4: Richard Doty. I didn't mean Oh no, No, it's a. 195 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 5: Good part of the conversations. He's a huge part of 196 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 5: the story. 197 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 7: Absolutely, it is a part. Yeah, and we knew we 198 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 7: were going to amplify it in situations like this on 199 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 7: podcasts and appearances later. You know, there's kind of like 200 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 7: the core meat of the show Cosmosis itself that's going 201 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 7: to start conversations like this one where we can really 202 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 7: dig into the details and we can really kind of 203 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 7: like sift through that and amplify things and start to 204 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 7: like send people down those wonderful UFO rabbit holes that 205 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 7: Kelly has charged it out, so well, thanks mad him 206 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 7: to say that. 207 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 3: Hi. 208 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 4: Listen, when we come back, we're going to talk to 209 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: Jay and Kelly some more about how the government may 210 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 4: be hiding the truth and specifically about Errow, the organization 211 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 4: that was supposedly here to provide transparency for us on 212 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 4: the topic. Ha ha. Anyway, you're listening to Beyond Contact 213 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. 214 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Jay, 215 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 4: Christopher King, and Kelly Chase about their new series, Cosmosis, 216 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 4: UFOs and a new reality. Kelly I found it very 217 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 4: interesting in the piece when you pointed out that arrow 218 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 4: spent I think it was one hundred thousand investigating the 219 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 4: topic of UFOs, but they spent over a million dollars 220 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 4: to hire a PR agency to control the messaging. This 221 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 4: is very telling, Yes. 222 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, isn't it though? Yeah, that one hundred thousand dollars. 223 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 6: It was for a joint study with NASA, which in 224 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 6: and of itself is a little bit funny because I 225 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 6: think NASA probably has a lot more out there, like 226 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 6: NASA all of a sudden being like, Ash, we should 227 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 6: really look into the UFO thing. It's like a little 228 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 6: bit funny objectively, but still it seems like a good 229 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 6: use of funds. But only one hundred thousand dollars. That's 230 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 6: like a press release and some snacks like I don't 231 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 6: know what you're going to do with that. But they 232 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 6: spent one point nine million dollars on contracting with an 233 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 6: organization that does like perception management for. 234 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 8: The DoD That's what they do. 235 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 6: It's what it says on their website, and so it 236 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 6: feels like all you have to do is follow the 237 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 6: money and you know where people's priorities are. 238 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 4: It's very very telling and very scary to me. You know, 239 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 4: Arrow has been clearly nothing more than a disinformation campaign 240 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 4: from my view. You guys interviewed a witness in your 241 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 4: series and he testified to them for four hours. I 242 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 4: think it was. And we all know others who have testified. 243 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 4: We've all interacted with these people, the government and military 244 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 4: guys who give their full testimony to Arrow. And then 245 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 4: Ero comes out with a statement saying there's nothing at 246 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 4: all to indicate anything of an et nature that must 247 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 4: hurt these guys. And you know, they could have come 248 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 4: on out and said it's not definitive, we are not 249 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 4: one hundred percent sure what's happening. That's fine. I don't 250 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 4: know what's happening. I don't think you guys know. I 251 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 4: don't know anybody that knows what's happening. But to flat 252 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 4: out say nothing was offensive to me, not just that. 253 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 7: But I went down It was one of the few 254 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 7: shoots that Kelly didn't go on. I think it was 255 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 7: the only shoot that Kelly didn't go on actually for 256 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 7: the whole series. I went down to well an undisclosed 257 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 7: location with Jordan Flowers or one of our other EPs, 258 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 7: and we shot with Mario woods, like an incredible UFO witness, 259 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 7: very pertinent to so many things, including the recent quote 260 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 7: unquote Jersey drones, this whole kind of flap that's been 261 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 7: happening recently over military installations and other places like pickets 262 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 7: in the arsenal agus and others. And Mario was faced 263 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,359 Speaker 7: with this back in nineteen seventy seven. He was guarding 264 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 7: a nuclear launch facility in South Dakota and he saw 265 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 7: a giant fireboot ball that he describes as the size 266 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 7: of a Walmart building, which is quite evocative and maybe 267 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 7: tells you where he lives in the world, not in 268 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 7: the middle of New York City like some of us. 269 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 7: And he saw beings there and like they were right 270 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 7: over a launch facility, I mean right over where these 271 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 7: missiles come out of the doors. And he disappeared. They 272 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 7: couldn't find him for hours, and his jeep showed up 273 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 7: in the middle of the mud and snow with no 274 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 7: tire tracks around it, miles from where they disappeared. It's 275 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 7: an extraordinary case. You know, this is a guy who's 276 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 7: very plugged in with people like Robert Hastings and Robert Solace. 277 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 7: They're all very conversant. They talk to each other. You know, 278 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 7: Robert Hastings of course, who wrote the seminal text UFOs 279 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 7: and Nukes, and Mario he showed me while I was there, 280 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 7: he showed me and Jordan the correspondence between him and 281 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 7: Arrow and it went back and forth, and Arrow was 282 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 7: blowing so much smoke to Mario about like, you know, 283 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 7: what it would do and how they needed his testimony 284 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 7: and what they would do with it and this, that 285 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 7: and the other thing. And we were able to show 286 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 7: one of those docs on the show, and that was 287 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 7: an exclusive for us that I really appreciate Mario giving 288 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 7: to us. But like you know, these are liars. They're 289 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 7: not just liars to the public in general. And they're 290 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 7: not just doing this for perception management. I mean these 291 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 7: are institutional level liars. That's what they do there. And 292 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 7: this whole like facade where it's like, oh, Kirkpatrick, he's 293 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 7: you know, he moved on to Oak Ridge, and so 294 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 7: we've got another guy. And then you have these ex military, 295 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 7: these ex intelligence X intelligence, as if that's even a thing. 296 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 7: They sit there and they say, oh, well there's a 297 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 7: new guy. Let's give them another year and let's see 298 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 7: what happens. And it's like, how long are we going 299 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 7: to hit How long are we going to hit fresh 300 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 7: and repeat on this? How long are we going to 301 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 7: be lying to and allow these people to say, like, 302 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 7: let's give him more time, Let's give him more time. 303 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 7: We know what they're doing and it's. 304 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 4: Forever because they did it with grunge, they did it 305 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 4: with you know, blue book, all of these sign This 306 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 4: has been going on since the dawn of the modern 307 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 4: UFO era and it's just discussed to me, and I 308 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 4: think it's getting worse and worse today as social media 309 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 4: is clearly being used to manipulate perceptions by the public, 310 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 4: foreign adversaries purposely trying to infiltrate our social media and 311 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 4: persuade people. I think it's done right here at home. 312 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 4: I'm sure that we feed this beast specifically on this topic, 313 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 4: and we can see how easily people can be manipulated 314 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 4: by being fed disinformation that has played out before all 315 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 4: of us in the last five years. So ultimately, I 316 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 4: think this is headed in the wrong direction. It's going 317 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 4: to get a lot worse, not better, with the proliferation 318 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 4: of deep fakes and AI. What do you guys think? 319 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 5: No, I completely agree. I think that in some ways. 320 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 6: We've always been our own worst enemy in the UFO community, 321 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 6: you know, because we are so networked to each other, 322 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 6: and because it's such a small community, and because everyone's 323 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 6: so hungry for more information that we've always been kind 324 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 6: of ripe for that in terms of intelligence, you know, infiltration. 325 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 6: But social media is absolutely ramped it up to a 326 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 6: whole other level. And I don't think that there's nearly 327 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 6: enough conversation going on in our communities about how do 328 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 6: we kind of have hygiene in both like the personal 329 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 6: and the community level where we're kind of stepping back 330 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 6: and trying to keep ourselves from getting to you know, 331 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 6: as we're bringing all of this stuff in. You see, 332 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 6: like anytime there's new piece of information or like a 333 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 6: new person who claims to be a whistleblower, or you know, 334 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 6: a new something that's released, everyone descends like filters. 335 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 5: And we're like no, no, no, no, no no. 336 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 6: But in doing that by jumping on things so immediately, 337 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 6: by always feeling like we need to offer an opinion 338 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 6: or to come down on a side, or like decide 339 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 6: who's right and wrong on these things, and like kind 340 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 6: of the topic of the day that comes out in 341 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 6: the community I think that we're kind of doing the 342 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 6: intelligence community's job for them in terms of muddying the waters. 343 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 8: And I think at a community level it would really. 344 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 6: Behoove us to have more conversations about how to handle 345 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 6: this stuff better. 346 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 4: I can imagine people just loving it sitting back that 347 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 4: are doing this because we, like you said, do the 348 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 4: work for them and disseminate that and fight over it 349 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 4: and everything. You know, in fairness, this does happen not 350 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,479 Speaker 4: just in our community, Like even I've heard how they 351 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 4: talk about this in the sports world, how they're all 352 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 4: fighting to be the first to release that this guy's 353 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 4: going to get signed by this company for this night, 354 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 4: and they're all fighting to be that one because you've 355 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 4: got to follow this guy who's going to have the 356 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 4: information first. And it's great that this information is being 357 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 4: shared by a lot of people and not just coming 358 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 4: from the top. But on the other hand, it's getting 359 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: really kind of messy now, and it's just going to 360 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 4: get worse in my view. You know, another interesting point 361 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 4: that someone made on your doc that some of the 362 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 4: secrecy is unintentional, which is something that I have never 363 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 4: thought about. I thought that was novel. People naturally don't 364 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 4: like talking about things that we don't understand, and we 365 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 4: typically don't like sharing those things with others. Now, I 366 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 4: personally think the exact opposite of that. There's no point 367 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 4: in talking about what we know, anything that's been discovered 368 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 4: or known to me. It's like, well, it's already out there. 369 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 4: Whatever I want to talk about the unknown. 370 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 7: Well, I think that's what sets people like you and 371 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 7: Kelly and I and many of your listeners apart from 372 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 7: the general kind of consensus reality out there. 373 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 4: Hoth my listeners, yeah, all of them, all of them. 374 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 7: Yeah, No, I think that. You know, sometimes it's it's 375 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 7: a conscious bias towards wanting to kind of shave off 376 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 7: the inconvenient details. You see something really weird, you see 377 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,959 Speaker 7: what seems to be a ghost, and like something else happens. 378 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 7: You hear a voice, or there's something that seems to 379 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 7: be connected to it, but you can't make a rational 380 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 7: connection for somebody else that makes any sense because all 381 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 7: of this stuff, you know, it's all under the rubric 382 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 7: of high strangeness. Right, we need to talk about it 383 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 7: because we need a fuller picture. People will sit there 384 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 7: and they'll be like, ah, I don't know, like I 385 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 7: feel like these two things are connected. This thing happened, 386 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 7: and then two weeks later, this other thing happened. I 387 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 7: can't draw a rational connection, So how can I tell 388 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 7: somebody else? It'll just make it sound more crazy. And 389 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 7: so people self edit and sometimes like your brain even 390 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 7: you know, depending on the level of cortisol and your 391 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 7: brain and or cortisol pumping through your body and other 392 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 7: things like this, like people well or yes, it could 393 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 7: be that. But like regardless of whether somebody sober, tired, 394 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 7: or in some other their state, the brain has a 395 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 7: magical ability to essentially take out the trash when we 396 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 7: find ourselves in a situation that's incredibly stressful. This happens 397 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 7: in car accidents, this happens when people fall off ladders. 398 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 7: This happened. Trauma and people have heart attacks, any kind 399 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 7: of trauma. And for the brain to see something that's 400 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 7: so against a conception of reality, it seems to have 401 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 7: a similar response in certain situations with high strangeness. And 402 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 7: so people will have this kind of patchy memory of 403 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 7: this stuff as well. And so then there's the aspect 404 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 7: of like it's half there and it's half not there, 405 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 7: Like I shouldn't mention that either. But you know, it's 406 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 7: important to remember that, like for years people would see grays, 407 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 7: people would ask like what kind of clothes they were wearing, 408 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 7: and people would be embarrassed to say, like, well, it 409 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 7: didn't look like they were wearing clothes, And so for 410 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 7: years in the literature that was something that was less 411 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 7: reported on because it just seems so wild that like 412 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 7: there would be some being and then that it wouldn't 413 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 7: be wearing clothes. 414 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 4: You know, hilarious. You have this encounter something from another world, 415 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 4: whatever that world may be, and this is your concern. 416 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 4: We're going to take a quick break there, guys. When 417 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 4: we come back, we're going to talk more to Jay 418 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 4: and Kelly about some of the strange occurrences and how 419 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 4: they're more prevalent than we realize, and also how these 420 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 4: things parallel mainstream religion. Oftentimes you're listening to Beyond Contact 421 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 4: and the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast am Paranormal podcast network. 422 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Jay 423 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 4: King and Kelly Chase. We were talking about how these 424 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 4: strange occurrences happen to people, and this was an interesting 425 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 4: thing that I thought came through your series for me 426 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 4: was that in general, we don't think societally that these 427 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 4: strange occurrences happen very often. In fact, I think the 428 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 4: average person on the street probably thinks that they happened 429 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 4: to a very select few, many of whom are crazy. 430 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 4: But when you talk to each individual, you find it 431 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 4: incredible how often nearly everyone has some type of strange 432 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 4: occurrence in their life, not necessarily a full blown UFO 433 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 4: alien abduction case, but a strange, unexplainable experience. Nonetheless, stories 434 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 4: of ghosts as you mentioned, Jay, or cryptids, and all 435 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 4: of these things go back thousands of years. 436 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think that for us that was something that 437 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 6: we really wanted to get across. So I'm glad that 438 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 6: I'm glad that it did come across, because you know, 439 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 6: I've had such a strange experience with this myself. Jay 440 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 6: is somebody who's a lifelong experiencer, but I'm someone who 441 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 6: only came to this in the last few years and 442 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 6: started to really take it seriously, and even going through 443 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 6: my own process, it's wild to me that I saw 444 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 6: a UFO when I was thirteen years old, but then 445 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 6: I spent the rest of my life up until just 446 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 6: a few years ago when I started taking this seriously, 447 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 6: thinking that UFOs weren't real. 448 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 5: How do you square those things? 449 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 6: And as you begin to sort of unpass all of 450 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 6: these things I think most people have, whether it's synchronicities, 451 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 6: it's some sort of an encounter with or communication from 452 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 6: a dead loved one, you know, all of these things 453 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 6: in the course of our day to day lives. The 454 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 6: walls of our reality tend to be very solid, and 455 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 6: yet there are these kind of breakthrough moments, but they 456 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 6: happen so briefly. They usually happen around trauma or a 457 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 6: bunch of other things going on in your life. And 458 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 6: I think it's really easy to just sort of like 459 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 6: skip past that part and just be like, well, I 460 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 6: don't think about that too much, and you just assume 461 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 6: that you're wrong somehow and you carry on. But I 462 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 6: think that once people get more educated about the structure 463 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 6: and the content of these experiences, how they take place, 464 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 6: what it's like, how it impacts people that they start to. 465 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 5: Recognize in their own life. They're like, oh, something like. 466 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 8: That did happen to me. I just didn't have a 467 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 8: way to like categorize it or explain it. 468 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 4: Agreed one hundred percent. You know, it's interesting also how 469 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 4: this phenomenon seems to parallel religions far more closely than again, 470 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 4: I think most people want to accept. There's a moment 471 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 4: in your piece where Jeffrey Kreipwall makes an amazing comment 472 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 4: to me. I thought it was great where he says, 473 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 4: in the ancient world, when we hear someone say, oh, 474 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 4: they came down from the sky and they called it religion, 475 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 4: but when somebody says that exact same thing today they 476 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 4: call it a crazy person. Yeah. 477 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 7: Absolutely, And I mean Jeff Kreipel has made such an 478 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 7: amazing career and has really contributed to the field, contributed 479 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 7: not just to our field, not just to the paranormal, 480 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 7: not just to uthology, but to religious studies all together, 481 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 7: and even to just like the social sciences at large. 482 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 7: I mean, he's really respected as such a figure these 483 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 7: days within the social sciences community. You know, he chairs 484 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 7: the department at RICE, He's been the dean of Humanities 485 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 7: down there in the past. You know, Jeff really takes 486 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 7: this stuff incredibly seriously and even thinks that this is 487 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 7: really the future of social sciences at large. You know, 488 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 7: whether it's anthropology, whether you're looking at religious study theology, 489 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 7: you know, psychology. There are so many aspects of the 490 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 7: soft science, as they're sometimes called, that really could be 491 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 7: well informed by the history of anomalous phenomena. And it's 492 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 7: absolutely true. I'm so glad that we have Diana Pisalka 493 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 7: on cosmosis, so glad that we have Jeff Kreipel on cosmosis, 494 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 7: and Stephen Finley, doctor Stephen Finley, who contributes incredibly well 495 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 7: to cosmosis. People that really look at religious studies, because 496 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 7: if we're looking at something that impacts culture at the 497 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 7: level of myth and that it's passed around by anecdote 498 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 7: and it affects our belief system so much, that's exactly 499 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 7: what religious studies scholars do. We're not just like sitting 500 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 7: there and talking to a priest. We're talking about the 501 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 7: people that study the Catholic Church, that study these religions 502 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 7: and how they operate. There's a difference there, There's a 503 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 7: nuance there that people need to really understand. We're not 504 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 7: throwing these two things together. We're using the advantages of 505 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 7: these experts that look at belief systems incredibly important when 506 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 7: you're dealing with a phenomenon like this. 507 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 4: I felt even before I got into this topic eleven 508 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 4: years ago, my whole life, I had a hard time 509 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 4: squaring how people that believe in this kind of a thing, 510 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 4: UFOs and whatnot were crazy, But people that believe these 511 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 4: things that happen in religion and all of those things 512 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 4: that are take magic is accepted. You know. I was 513 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 4: immediately reminded when I heard that quote by Kreipel of 514 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 4: something that Whitley talks about in Communion. Actually, when he 515 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 4: compared the stories from thousands of years ago, how there'll 516 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 4: be an account, and it was that the fairies came 517 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 4: down from the trees, and he described these beings with 518 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 4: the big eyes and these little guys. Then you turn 519 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: the page and it's like a modern day abduction story 520 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 4: about these beings came down from the sky. It very well, 521 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 4: maybe the exact same experience that's happening, but we're seeing 522 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 4: it through a different lens. We live in the space 523 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 4: age a thousand years ago that was way beyond the 524 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 4: way of thinking. 525 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 526 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 6: I think it's if we lose track of our history 527 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 6: that we end up losing a lot of the phenomenon. 528 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 6: When we deal with the unknown, we're kind of left grasping. 529 00:26:59,320 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 8: For whatever can. 530 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 6: Septual tools or ideas or memes are most available to us, 531 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 6: and so inevitably these encounters with things that are so 532 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 6: far beyond our understanding end up being wrapped in sort 533 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 6: of the cultural zeitgeist of the day, and it introduces 534 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 6: a subjectivity into the experience. I think that can make 535 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 6: it really challenging for us to tackle because we're comparing 536 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 6: these things that are very similar but that are different 537 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 6: that change over time. As tough as that is, I 538 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 6: think that like coming to terms with like, Okay, that's 539 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 6: the reality of what we're dealing with here, So how 540 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 6: do we approach this? It's about not demanding that the 541 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 6: data conforms to our expectations of the kind of data 542 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 6: that we would like to work with, but instead looking 543 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 6: at the data as it exists and trying to be 544 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 6: innovative about how we're going to approach it in a 545 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 6: way that we can make progress. 546 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 4: You know, you guys also illustrate how anyone who's had 547 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 4: one of these experiences, or those like me who have 548 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,959 Speaker 4: just trust the data from experiencers, can really have a 549 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 4: personal paradigm shift in their way of thinking. They often 550 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 4: can have a whole new worldview based on these experiences, 551 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 4: and often it goes well beyond just the UFO aspect 552 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 4: of this. People sometimes experience additional phenomenon like telepathic abilities, precognition, levitation, 553 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 4: other sigh related effects. 554 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 7: It's interesting, right, because there's a bit of a chicken 555 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 7: in the egg situation here. Did the initial experience kind 556 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 7: of break open somebody's head in such a way that 557 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 7: they became more perceptually aware of this range of these 558 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 7: kinds of edge states, these edges of perception, Yeah, as 559 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 7: a causal like that. And then there are other folks, 560 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 7: for example Gary Nolan, who's the head of the pathology 561 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 7: department at Stanford University and it's quite a prominent figure 562 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 7: in the field these days. He also puts forward that 563 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 7: there might be differences in the brains of people that 564 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 7: are having these experiences regardless of modality, like multi modality experiencers. 565 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 7: You know how some people their second toe is longer 566 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 7: than their first hour ear lobes or something like this. 567 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 7: And there's such a study even from the intelligence community, 568 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 7: but also now among researchers about these family lines. You 569 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 7: know that we find these family lines of experiencers that 570 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 7: can go back generations, like we show on cosmosis, the 571 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 7: case of Courtney lafal him. We see one of his 572 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 7: sons on the show, we see his grandmother. They're all experiencers, 573 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 7: and they're all multi modality experiencers. Courtney and his grandmother 574 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,479 Speaker 7: they saw a UFO together when Courtney was a child, 575 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 7: and then that opened up a conversation in the family 576 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 7: where she was able to tell him that she and 577 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 7: other family members had seen UFOs in the past. With 578 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 7: that and other experiences, it really not just like opened 579 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 7: up the conversation among the family in a way that 580 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 7: could engender a sense of honesty and openness about all 581 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 7: these things, making people closer together, more intimate, but it 582 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 7: also kind of opened up Courtney's worldview. He felt allowed 583 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 7: to look at this stuff. And as he felt maybe 584 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 7: allowed to look at this stuff and was able to 585 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 7: kind of embrace it on that level. He found this stuff, 586 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 7: he found more things. He found situations of mediumship, He 587 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 7: found situations of precognition, culture, geist, activity, and so much else. 588 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 4: You know, we also can't separate out consciousness from the 589 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 4: UFO phenomenon. In fact, aspects of the afterlife also seem 590 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: clearly related to the phenomenon. 591 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 6: Some way right, absolutely, and I think we're only just 592 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 6: coming to terms with what that really means. You know, 593 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 6: we definitely have this sense that there's this connection. I 594 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 6: think experiencers in particular have a real experiential understanding that 595 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 6: this has something to do with consciousness and with the afterlife, 596 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 6: you know, all of these things that we're really not 597 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 6: talking about one phenomenon, but kind of a meta phenomenon 598 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 6: that encompasses all of these different, unknown and often ignored 599 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 6: aspects of. 600 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 8: Human experience and just what it means to be alive. 601 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 6: You know, the science is finally starting to catch up 602 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 6: in terms of our understanding of consciousness and quantum mechanics 603 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 6: and the structure of the universe that are going to 604 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 6: not just allow us but force us to look at 605 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 6: our reality differently. And I think that in beginning to 606 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 6: understand that that more about the UFO phenomenon is going 607 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 6: to begin to make sense to us. And so like, 608 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 6: there could be a more exciting time, I think, to 609 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 6: be studying these things, because I think we're about to 610 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 6: make progress in a place where we've been stymied for 611 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 6: a while. 612 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 4: God, I hope. So when we come back, we're going 613 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 4: to talk to Jay and Kelly Moore about the deeper 614 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 4: complexities of the UFO phenomenon that go well beyond just 615 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 4: a spacecraft flying in from another solar system. You're listening 616 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 4: to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast 617 00:31:36,440 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact 618 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 4: talking to Jay and Kelly here. As j points out, 619 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 4: many of the current modalities we have on this topic 620 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 4: all have their flaws. We may be encountering something so 621 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 4: much more beyond the scales of what we can even 622 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 4: currently grasp, right. Yeah. Absolutely. 623 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 7: There's a wonderful philosopher named James Madden that we were 624 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 7: able to bring onto the show. He's done incredible work. 625 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 7: He recently published a book called Unidentified Flying hyper Object 626 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 7: where he really kind of gets into this idea and 627 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 7: many other ideas. But one of these ideas is that 628 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 7: when we talk about UFOs, we often focus on the 629 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 7: unidentified part, and we often focus on the flying part, 630 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 7: but we don't look at the object part. And according 631 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 7: to him, like that may be an issue because getting 632 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 7: into the kind of like the philosophy of this, like 633 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 7: what is an object? Are we making assumptions about what 634 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 7: an object is? And especially with something like that can 635 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 7: appear as a nuts and bolts craft versus like orb 636 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 7: phenomena or something even more vaporous than that. You know, 637 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 7: maybe we have been making some overboard assumptions about what 638 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 7: we really term as an object or what kinds of 639 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 7: classes of objects we're looking at, And so with him, 640 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 7: he's talking about things like a hyper object is a 641 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 7: situation where there's an object that operates on such a 642 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 7: grand scale, And often this is something that we wouldn't 643 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 7: think of as an object, like, for example, a pizza 644 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 7: restaurant is an example that's using the show. You could 645 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 7: replace all the things in a pizza restaurant and it 646 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 7: would still be considered by the people in the neighborhood 647 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 7: as the same pizza restaurant. You know, the employees could 648 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 7: change the ovens, could change everything like that, but we 649 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 7: still think of it as the same pizza hut, whatever 650 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 7: you have there. If you go bigger than that, there's 651 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 7: the corporation level, or like there's the economy, and these 652 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 7: are things that are so big, These are concepts that 653 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 7: are so big we articulate them as a thing the economy, 654 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 7: but we can't really grasp even the best economists, they 655 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 7: can't understand at any given moment what the heck the 656 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 7: economy is truly doing on every single layer at any 657 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 7: one particular time. And what he's suggesting that essentially, it's 658 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 7: possible that anomalous phenomenon that UFOs et cetera, could be 659 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 7: operating on such a grand scale that it is functioning 660 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 7: akin to that, like the economy, a situation that we're 661 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 7: trying to wrap our heads around with these edge states, 662 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 7: something that may be absolutely impossible for our human minds 663 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 7: to completely wrap our arms around. 664 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 4: It's an interesting way of thinking, it really is. One 665 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 4: other takeaway that I had was that we do not 666 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 4: have to wait for the government to spoon feed us 667 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 4: these answers. But the phenomenon is everywhere if you look, 668 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 4: and we should just be more open about sharing our 669 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 4: strange experiences with one another, not afraid to talk about them, 670 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: then perhaps would be able to get closer to the answers. 671 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 4: Hopefully this series will provoke a dialogue. Was that part 672 00:34:58,880 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 4: of your mission? 673 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 6: Yes, from the very beginning, I think of all the 674 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 6: things that we wanted to accomplish, that that I think 675 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 6: was first and foremost in our minds. Jay and I 676 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 6: really believe in this sort of punk rock d ui 677 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 6: d u I dy. 678 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 4: Approach to let's bring up Kelly, let's. 679 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 5: Keep it on Brodian flip. 680 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 6: No, listen, the intelligence community, they're not even necessarily doing 681 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 6: something bad or nefarious. Like we've set up these institutions 682 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 6: to protect us in certain ways. Their job isn't to 683 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 6: like reveal the secrets of the universe to us. Their 684 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 6: job is to keep us safe and mitigate risk, figure 685 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 6: out what those risks are before we do, and never 686 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 6: tell us about it so we can all go about 687 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,479 Speaker 6: having our lives. Which isn't to say that they haven't 688 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 6: done bad things also, but I mean, I think the 689 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 6: real point is that, like we're asking for something from 690 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 6: the intelligence apparatus that's like it's fundamentally not set up 691 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 6: to do. 692 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 8: In fact, it's set up to do the opposite of that. 693 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 6: It seems like the whole conversation has gotten caught in 694 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 6: the jaws of this disclosure narrative that's being run, for 695 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 6: better or for worse by the intelligence community, you know, 696 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 6: to us, it seems like you should just you can 697 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 6: just go around like you just literally don't have to 698 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 6: let that be the center of the conversation. But what 699 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 6: we're talking about is understanding a non human intelligence or 700 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 6: potentially many of them in our interaction with those things. 701 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 6: And the thing that we're supposed to believe about this 702 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 6: within the disclosure narrative is that, like, the best data 703 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 6: that we can have is data that's given us to 704 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 6: us by other people that they can either confirm nor 705 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 6: deny about the vehicles that these things ride around in. 706 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 6: And it's like, but why wouldn't we just go talk 707 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 6: to the people who've interacted with these things anything. 708 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 4: If you talk about refrigerator repair, go talk to the 709 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 4: guy who repairs refrigerators. Why you're waiting for some guy 710 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 4: who won't tell you about refrigerators and says he doesn't 711 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 4: know anything. Why do we wait for them? It's a 712 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 4: great analogy, Kelly, It really is. I think some people 713 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 4: in this community, we do entertain what the experienceers have 714 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 4: to say, and we do take them at their word, 715 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 4: and we are open to their things. But I think 716 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 4: in general, most of the people in the world, certainly 717 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 4: in our country, aren't necessarily as invested in this topic, 718 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 4: do you know. I think that's part of it. You know, 719 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 4: I felt this piece was so great and I thought 720 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 4: Whitley was just fantastic in it. It's kind of come 721 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 4: full circle for him because this is gaining some strength 722 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 4: and some momentum and he should get his day. 723 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 7: You know, Whitley is such a legend. I mean, for 724 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 7: so many different reasons. Communion of Course was such an 725 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 7: early and important seminal work in the field. It really 726 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 7: busted with him and Bud Hopkins work at the outset 727 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 7: between that and like Missing Time and Intruders, they really 728 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 7: just the doors open on this topic as far as 729 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 7: the abduction phenomenon, as far as like interaction things like that. 730 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 7: You know, Whitley was such a trailblazer and he continues 731 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 7: to be a trailblazer. I mean, his recent book Them 732 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 7: absolutely incredible in terms of looking at the high strangeness 733 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 7: effects and the kind of inconvenient details that we're really 734 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 7: talking about on the show. Them was a huge, huge 735 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 7: inspiration both Kelly and I in working on the kind 736 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 7: of like groundwork that we laid for the show. As 737 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 7: a new book, the Fourth Mind, that really gets into 738 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 7: the grays, and I'm really looking forward to the conversation 739 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 7: around that later this year. It's going to be absolutely 740 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 7: wonderful to hear from him that way. But yeah, I 741 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 7: mean he deserves every accolade. He deserves to have this resurgence, 742 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 7: and it's so absolutely wonderful to see, you. 743 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 4: Know, Jay, I remember, I mean that this is what 744 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 4: got me. People always ask, and it was Communion that 745 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 4: first got me interested in This was that specific book, 746 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 4: and I do remember even then, right when it came 747 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 4: out whatever it was eighty five, mid eighties, My spidey 748 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 4: sense was tingling when I read on the back, how 749 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 4: you know he's a science fiction writer, and I thought, well, yeah, 750 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 4: you know, he could have just made this whole thing up. 751 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 4: What I love is here we are forty years later. 752 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 4: This guy not only has he not retracted a story 753 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,919 Speaker 4: or anything, he has stayed in this community. He has 754 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 4: stuck to everything, and he is still to me the forefront. 755 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 4: He makes very poignant comments that are very interesting and 756 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 4: make me reflect on these possibilities. And I think he's 757 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 4: as important now as he was when he came out 758 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 4: with Communion, and that's to me, that kind of solidifies 759 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 4: him more. 760 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 7: You guys are to. 761 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 4: Contact in the Desert. 762 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 6: Yes, it's honestly my favorite event. 763 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 5: We had so much fun last year. It was absolutely 764 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 5: a blast. 765 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 6: I love the location, the resort where it's held, because 766 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 6: it's just it's like exactly big enough and exactly small 767 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 6: enough that you know you can get away. But also 768 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 6: it's so easy to kind of get in the mix 769 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,479 Speaker 6: with all the speakers and the attendees, and I think 770 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 6: like it's just the most fun. 771 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 8: I really love it. 772 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 4: Jay was telling me before before you came on, Kelly, 773 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 4: that you're going to do a juggling act for us 774 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 4: this year. Is that true? 775 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 6: Oh? 776 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, good. 777 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 7: I feel like for a lot of the speakers, especially 778 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 7: when they do hosting duties or other things like that, 779 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 7: I mean, and for yourself, Ron, I mean Ron Captain 780 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 7: Ron is doing juggling act that whole long weekend basically, 781 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 7: you know, of contact in the desk, I have. 782 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 4: Seen that weekend for me. Thanks a lot, guys. I 783 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 4: really appreciate you guys coming on. It was a lot 784 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 4: of fun talking about this. I could do it for hours. 785 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 4: I really recommend everyone out there watch Cosmosis, UFOs and 786 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 4: a New Reality, and it really gives a new honest 787 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 4: approach to the way we perhaps should be thinking about 788 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 4: UFOs and the phenomenon and not just face value like 789 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 4: we've been over the years. It's available on Apple TV 790 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 4: and on Prime. You can find more about Jay and 791 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 4: Kelly at on tocolps dot com, O N T O 792 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 4: C A L Y P s E dot com. Now, 793 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 4: thanks for listening to be on Contact. We'll be back 794 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 4: next week with an all new episode. You can follow 795 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 4: me Captain Ron on Twitter and Instagram at c I 796 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 4: T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out 797 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 4: Contact indeedeesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational as 798 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 4: we explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and 799 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 4: Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. 800 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast 801 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: Ay and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out 802 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 1: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going 803 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: to iHeartRadio dot com.