1
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,080
Speaker 1: On August tenth, nineteen ninety four, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, seventy

2
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 1: eight year old Leonard Jones and twenty seven year old

3
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: Michelle Brooks sat in a parked car when one male

4
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: blocked the passenger door and another demanded that Jones get

5
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,720
Speaker 1: out before shooting and killing him. The two males fled.

6
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,800
Speaker 1: Michelle Brooks initially chose sixteen year old Johnny Barry from

7
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: a photo lineup, but when she rescinded that idea at

8
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing, the charges were dropped. Within a few weeks,

9
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 1: Johnny was inexplicably rearrested for the crime of which he

10
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,479
Speaker 1: had just been cleared, and while in juvenile detention, he

11
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 1: met fifteen year old Taheed Lloyd, who admitted that he

12
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 1: was one of the two attackers in the Jones killing,

13
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,360
Speaker 1: but when he wouldn't agree to clear Johnny's name, the

14
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: two boys fought. Lloyd was later arrested on an unrelated charge,

15
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: and a gun in his possession was linked to the

16
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,840
Speaker 1: Jones murder. However, Lloyd mistakenly believed that Johnny had implicated him,

17
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 1: and as retribution, falsely named Johnny Berry as his accomplice

18
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,600
Speaker 1: and Jones's shooter. At trial, Michelle Brooks' testimony was shaky

19
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 1: at best, but with Lloyd's testimony, Johnny was convicted and

20
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,959
Speaker 1: sentenced to life without parole. Years later, Lloyd admitted his lies,

21
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,040
Speaker 1: but at a hearing when the prosecution threatened to charge

22
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 1: Lloyd with perjury and retry him for the murder, Lloyd

23
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,319
Speaker 1: refused to officially recant. It took a slew of Supreme

24
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,520
Speaker 1: Court rulings on juvenile life sentences and a review by

25
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 1: Philadelphia's Conviction Integrity Unit to finally set Johnny Barry free

26
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 1: after nearly twenty five long years behind bars. This is

27
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your host,

28
00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 1: Jason Flahman. This episode is probably going to that's with

29
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 1: your perceptions of justice. I mean, there are so many

30
00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 1: things wrong with this case. You're gonna feel like you

31
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,919
Speaker 1: need a chiropractic from your head spinning around. It's an

32
00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: incredible story of an incredible man named Johnny Berry, and

33
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 1: it goes all the way to the United States Supreme

34
00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 1: Court decisions, to lying witnesses, and a corrupt system that

35
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 1: really ignored what should have been absolutely crystal clear from

36
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 1: day one. So without further ado, Johnny Berry, welcome to

37
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction.

38
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you very much. Jason.

39
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I'm so sorry you're here because

40
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 1: of what you had to go through, But I'm obviously

41
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 1: on the flip side, I'm super happy that you're free

42
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,920
Speaker 1: and out and have been totally exonerated and vindicated and

43
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 1: are now living your best life. So okay, what was

44
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,359
Speaker 1: your life like before all of this insanity?

45
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,600
Speaker 2: Growing up in Philadelphia, Wes Philadelphia, life was simple. It

46
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 2: was fun. I am the eldest of five children. My

47
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,480
Speaker 2: father was active member in the military. My mother was

48
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,480
Speaker 2: a stay at home mom. We were poor, definitely didn't

49
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,119
Speaker 2: have much, but what we did have was love, dedication

50
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 2: to one another, and we did our best to make

51
00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 2: things work.

52
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: It sounds like people living that kind of life all

53
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,040
Speaker 1: over the country, right, just struggling to get by day

54
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: to day, but having good parents and lots of love

55
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 1: in the household. And so you were sixteen years old

56
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 1: at the time of this horrible crime went on August tenth,

57
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,079
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. Leonard Jones, who was seventy eight years

58
00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,639
Speaker 1: old and Michelle Brooks, who was just twenty seven, were

59
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 1: sitting in a van in the Parkside neighborhood at Philadelphia,

60
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 1: when two very young men approached the van. Right one

61
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 1: of them blocked the passenger side door from opening, preventing

62
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 1: Michelle from getting out, and then the other one approached

63
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 1: mister Jones with a handgun and yelled at him to

64
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 1: get out, but before he could even comply. I don't

65
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,720
Speaker 1: forget he was not a young guy, seventy eight years old.

66
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 1: He was shot and killed and then both of the

67
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 1: men fled. And before we dive in to the investigation,

68
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 1: it's important to note that you, Johnny, had had some

69
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 1: brushures with the law prior to this.

70
00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,040
Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes? Unfortunately, Yeah, I was specifically involved

71
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 2: with and I'm not proud of the selling of drugs

72
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,240
Speaker 2: and things of that nature.

73
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 1: Right, So you weren't exactly a choir boy. But that

74
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,279
Speaker 1: also doesn't make you a murderer. And it is relevant though,

75
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 1: because it means that you were known to the police.

76
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,640
Speaker 1: And so as the investigation got underway, Michelle Brooks, the

77
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,480
Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman from the van, She described

78
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 1: the man who had held her door shut and said

79
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,120
Speaker 1: he had a chipped front tooth, and then police showed

80
00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,159
Speaker 1: her a photographic lineup, and from that lineup she picked you,

81
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 1: and at that time you did have a slightly chipped

82
00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: front tooth, so police arrested you. But on August thirty first,

83
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,280
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Michelle Brooks came to the preliminary hearing

84
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 1: and when she saw you, she told police that you

85
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,000
Speaker 1: were not the person who had held the door shut.

86
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 1: You're just not the guy. So naturally the charges were

87
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 1: dismissed and you were freed, and that should have been

88
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: the end of it for you right there, you know,

89
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,359
Speaker 1: But a few weeks later you were rearrested for the

90
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: same crime and sent back to juvie. So, Johnny, this

91
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,800
Speaker 1: is crazy, right, I mean, pill us In, do you

92
00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: have any idea why they rearrested you.

93
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 2: I have a theory. It was a time period where

94
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 2: Philadelphia was being plagued with crime, and politicians and public

95
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,560
Speaker 2: officials were like their feet held to fire, like, hey,

96
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,719
Speaker 2: we got to do something about this. I was a

97
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 2: known individual to authorities. I was in the streets, I

98
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 2: was involved with gang activity, I sold drugs, and I

99
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 2: believe that the police specifically honed in on me. They

100
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 2: had me. They didn't have any other individual at that

101
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,159
Speaker 2: particular time, and they wanted me and they were stuck

102
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,839
Speaker 2: on me. And that's why we don't have any or

103
00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,479
Speaker 2: never came up with any type of evidence as to

104
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,600
Speaker 2: why I was rearrested.

105
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's not completely out of the realm

106
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 1: of possibilities. It was Philadelphia in the nineties, after all,

107
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,240
Speaker 1: when both crime and police miscond were just rampant. I mean,

108
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: but what happens next is even crazier. So there you

109
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,320
Speaker 1: are back in juvenile detention and you hear about a

110
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,840
Speaker 1: fifteen year old kid named tay Heed Lloyd who had

111
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: been a juvie on an unrelated charge during your last

112
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 1: short stint. Now he was still there and some guys

113
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,839
Speaker 1: but ahead and't told you what he had said after

114
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,119
Speaker 1: you had left the last time.

115
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was incarcerated in the juvenile facility, and

116
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 2: once there, the individuals who were there and had been

117
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,360
Speaker 2: introduced to me, so to speak from my time prior,

118
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,159
Speaker 2: the whole thing was hey, what are you doing here?

119
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 2: Why are you back? And I'm like, I have no idea.

120
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 2: They say, okay, well, by the way, do you know

121
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,040
Speaker 2: this guy over here indicating Tayhi Lloyd? And I'm like, no,

122
00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 2: I don't know him, never met him before, you know,

123
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 2: what's up with him? They're like, hey, when you left,

124
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 2: he told us that he and his friend had committed

125
00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 2: the murder and not you, and that you really didn't

126
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 2: do it. So, hearing that, I approached him and I

127
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,719
Speaker 2: was like, hey, I'm hearing that you had something to

128
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 2: do with this homicide that I'm here for. I didn't

129
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:09,920
Speaker 2: do it. You know I didn't do it. Can you

130
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,880
Speaker 2: help me with it? His exact words to me was,

131
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 2: I know who did it. I didn't do it, but

132
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything. And at that point I said,

133
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 2: or you're not saying anything? Oh no, you bought this.

134
00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 2: We got into a physical altercation. We started to fight,

135
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,680
Speaker 2: and the officers in that vicinity came and they broke

136
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,400
Speaker 2: the fight up, separated us, but we had bad blood

137
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 2: between us from that point on because I was so

138
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,480
Speaker 2: bent on. Man, I'm in this freaking hell hole for

139
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 2: something you and your friend or whoever it was, did

140
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 2: and I'm not supposed to be here.

141
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,120
Speaker 1: And do you remember did Lloyd have chip teeth like

142
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: the witness Michelle Brooks had mentioned.

143
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 2: TYI, Lloyd had a very very identifiable two front chip teeth.

144
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 2: I could have actually taken the tip of your pinky

145
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 2: finger and stuck it through that chip in front of

146
00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 2: his two teeth.

147
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that anybody in your situation would

148
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 1: have acted any differently. I mean, got every reason to

149
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 1: be angry and to want to try to do what

150
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,040
Speaker 1: you could do in that situation to extricate yourself. Right,

151
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: And here's this guy who holds the key, and he's

152
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,520
Speaker 1: right in front of you, and then he actually turned

153
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,320
Speaker 1: in the complete opposite direction. What I'm talking about is

154
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,680
Speaker 1: Lloyd was arrested several months later and they found him

155
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: in possession of a handgun that was linked to the murder.

156
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,600
Speaker 1: Ballistics confirmed this, and he thought that you had implicated

157
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 1: him because you had known that he had done it

158
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,120
Speaker 1: from the talk inside the prison, and so he went

159
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 1: ahead and implicated you in the crime, almost like street

160
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: justice or something like that. Right, And as happens in

161
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,840
Speaker 1: these cases time and time again, he agreed to plead

162
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 1: guilty in exchange for a fifteenth to thirty seven year

163
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 1: sentence for a murder that he did commit. So he

164
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 1: saved himself from a life sentence changed for lying and

165
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,439
Speaker 1: presenting false testimony against you. Well, now what happens next

166
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 1: is predictable, right, You get charged with murder, robbery, conspiracy,

167
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,520
Speaker 1: and possessing instruments of crime. So now you're facing the

168
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,199
Speaker 1: worst imaginable scenario. What was going through your mind when

169
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,839
Speaker 1: you found out you were being charged with all these

170
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 1: terrible crimes.

171
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 2: When I realized that I was being charged for this

172
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 2: murder and that he was bearing testimony against me, I

173
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 2: was horrified. I still remained optimistic that I was going

174
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,240
Speaker 2: to go to trial and beat the case because I

175
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 2: didn't do it.

176
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 1: Until let's go to the trial. So this is September

177
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,560
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five. He had already spent the year in

178
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 1: jail awaiting trial. And then Michelle Brooks. So Michelle Brooks,

179
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 1: remember was the witness who was in this vehicle at

180
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 1: the time of the murder. Now her testimony was conflicting

181
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 1: and confusing. She identified you as the person who held

182
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 1: the door shut during the robbery, but then she also

183
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,480
Speaker 1: identified you as the gunman, which of course they couldn't

184
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 1: both be true. And she also said that she had

185
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,320
Speaker 1: told the police previously that you weren't involved in the crime,

186
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,240
Speaker 1: and then she restated that in her testimony. So if

187
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm on the jury, I'm going wait a minute, there's

188
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,079
Speaker 1: three totally different stories here. But I think the nail

189
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 1: in your coffin, so to speak, was that Lloyd testified

190
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 1: saying that you and he had committed the crime. He

191
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 1: knew full well who had committed the crime with him,

192
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,760
Speaker 1: and that guy, his actual co conspirator, remained on the

193
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 1: streets as a result of them taking you in his place.

194
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,840
Speaker 1: So who was your attorney and did they mount any

195
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,240
Speaker 1: kind of a defense for you.

196
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,839
Speaker 2: My attorney at the time was Donald Michael Podova. I

197
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 2: will say that he did his best. He was quote appointed, overworked, underpaid,

198
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 2: and he tried his best to save this young boy's life.

199
00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 2: And it was so much that he could have done

200
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,679
Speaker 2: with a so called co defendant who pointed the finger

201
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 2: and said, hey, yeah, I was a part of this crime,

202
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,520
Speaker 2: but he done it with me. Give me a deal,

203
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 2: you know.

204
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,440
Speaker 1: So predictably, you were convicted of murder, robbery, possessing instruments

205
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,120
Speaker 1: of a crime, and conspiracy and sentenced to life in

206
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,439
Speaker 1: prison without the possibility of parole. What was that awful

207
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,560
Speaker 1: moment like when the jury came back in with the verdict.

208
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 2: When I was convicted and they handed down that life sentence,

209
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,280
Speaker 2: tears came down my eyes like a baby. I looked

210
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,560
Speaker 2: back at my mother at the time it was living

211
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 2: and I cried because I couldn't believe that the system

212
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 2: had felt my family and my community and me, and

213
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,480
Speaker 2: at that point I just felt absolutely helpless.

214
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 3: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

215
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,559
Speaker 3: and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading

216
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,640
Speaker 3: capabilities in digital, cloud and secure Working to reform the

217
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 3: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG

218
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,560
Speaker 3: pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other

219
00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,920
Speaker 3: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need.

220
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 3: As part of Eccentsure's commitment to racial and civil justice.

221
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 3: Accenture's Legal Access program provides pro bono legal services in

222
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,760
Speaker 3: partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to

223
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 3: people and communities worldwide.

224
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 2: When I first got to prison, they sent me to

225
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:44,040
Speaker 2: state correctional institution Gratifford. That place was like another world.

226
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,440
Speaker 2: When I was eighteen at the time. When I first

227
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 2: entered into grat Afford, it was like halways full of people,

228
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,679
Speaker 2: full of people, like close jury, loud, and I thought,

229
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 2: who are all these people? Wow, there's a lot of

230
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,960
Speaker 2: counselors that were here, because I saw very few people

231
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,080
Speaker 2: who had on the state issued clothing. Well what it was,

232
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,080
Speaker 2: were all inmates, and at that particular time, we were

233
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,720
Speaker 2: allowed to wear our street clothing. So the hallways was

234
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,560
Speaker 2: filled with inmates or residents as I like to call them.

235
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,080
Speaker 2: At that time, prison was a lot more ran by

236
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,960
Speaker 2: the residents, more so than it is now. At that time,

237
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,679
Speaker 2: the residents had more control over the institutions, and there

238
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 2: was a lot more liberties, more freedom. It was more

239
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,880
Speaker 2: volatile than it is now. But on the other hand,

240
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,080
Speaker 2: it had like a balance to the police. The residents

241
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,960
Speaker 2: kind of ran it, but they maintained a balance, so

242
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,440
Speaker 2: people didn't just do anything. You know, there were texts

243
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,199
Speaker 2: and balances if you've done something. You know. Administration kind

244
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,560
Speaker 2: of worked hand to hand with some of the residents

245
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 2: and we kind of figured it out. That didn't mean

246
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,600
Speaker 2: that some stuff didn't happen sometimes, but it was a

247
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,960
Speaker 2: lot more easier. And I'm telling you five six seven

248
00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,400
Speaker 2: years went by like nothing.

249
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,960
Speaker 1: So six seven years later, two thousand and two, after

250
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,439
Speaker 1: your convictions had already been upheld on appeal. You received

251
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,440
Speaker 1: a letter that must have rocked your world. Tell us

252
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 1: about that.

253
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,959
Speaker 2: I received under the door and myself a recantation letter

254
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,480
Speaker 2: from Tyi Lloyd, basically saying, hey, here's a long awaited

255
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 2: piece of information that you've been waiting for. He wanted

256
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,760
Speaker 2: to come clean, wanted to clear my name, and so

257
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 2: he did that. He talked about the fact of him

258
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 2: having known me prior to being incarcerated at the juvenile facility.

259
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 2: He talked about his incentives or motive for Lyon, and

260
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,720
Speaker 2: he also saw it as a means to receive less time.

261
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 2: And I do remember that he was pretty insistent on

262
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: he wasn't recanting for me. He more so was concerned

263
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 2: about my mother and things of that nature. So for me,

264
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 2: it was like a bittersweet sort of thing at a

265
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 2: time because I was so elated. I was so blown

266
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,400
Speaker 2: away by receiving that recantation, but at the same time

267
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 2: I was dealing with the loss of my mother. That

268
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,520
Speaker 2: was hard, you know, I don't really talk about that.

269
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's hard to imagine being stuck inside and

270
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: getting the worst news that you could get like that,

271
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 1: and what a crazy whirlwind of events, right if you

272
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,720
Speaker 1: get that worst news, and then you get this letter

273
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 1: that you'd probably been maybe not even allowing yourself to

274
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,360
Speaker 1: hope would come, but it came. So this guy who

275
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,800
Speaker 1: had literally put you in prison for the rest of

276
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: your life not only sent this letter, but he also

277
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,560
Speaker 1: signed an after David under oath saying that he had

278
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,360
Speaker 1: falsely implicated you because he thought that you had told

279
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,480
Speaker 1: the prosecution about Lloyd admitting in the juvenile detention center

280
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 1: that he had taken part of the crime. So then

281
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,360
Speaker 1: your lawyer, Robert Gamberg filed a post conviction petition for

282
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,480
Speaker 1: a new trial and was granted the hearing. Now he

283
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 1: had collected a significant amount of evidence to defend your innocence,

284
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 1: statements from two different people who were in the juvenile

285
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 1: detention center back in ninety four who overheard Lloyd say

286
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 1: that he was going to falsely accuse and implicate you,

287
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 1: and this lawyer Gamberg obtained a statement from a prison inmate,

288
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,680
Speaker 1: Bryant Miles, who said that Russell Q. Wilson admitted that

289
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,680
Speaker 1: he and Lloyd had committed the crime and that Lloyd

290
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 1: was the gunman. Bingo, right, this is powerful stuff. This

291
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 1: is where it takes a crazy turn. In two thousand

292
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 1: and seven. Lloyd was prepared to testify by a video conference,

293
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 1: but the prosecution had some dirty tricks a DOA prosecutor

294
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 1: threatened to charge Lloyd with perjury and retry him for

295
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 1: the murder if he persisted in his recantation, and the

296
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 1: judge conducting the hearing became concerned that Lloyd was opening

297
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 1: himself up to a perjury prosecution, which he was, so

298
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 1: he appointed a lawyer to represent Lloyd and continued the hearing,

299
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 1: and then the prosecutor got just what they wanted, right.

300
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 1: The hearing resumed two thousand and eight, but Lloyd took

301
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,240
Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment and you were sent back to prison.

302
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:05,640
Speaker 2: Yep.

303
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 1: What freaking turn of events that is. And just so

304
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,040
Speaker 1: people understand, if he had lost, if they had gone

305
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 1: and done what they said they were going to do

306
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,160
Speaker 1: and follow through on their threat, he could have gone

307
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 1: back to prison for the rest of his life instead

308
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,640
Speaker 1: of fifteen to thirty seven. Am I right?

309
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that was part of his agreement with the

310
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,639
Speaker 2: distric Attorney's office, is that it turned out that he

311
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 2: testified falsely, perject testimony anything like that, the dealers off

312
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 2: the table and he would have been prosecuted to the

313
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 2: full assistant of the law. But the problem with that is,

314
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 2: as I see the District Attorney's office in Pennsylvania, they

315
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 2: have immunity, and so when they utilize his agreement as

316
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 2: a threat to him, which it was, it takes away

317
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 2: the power of the balance of justice and the scales

318
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,520
Speaker 2: of justice because now even though he wanted to do

319
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,640
Speaker 2: the right thing and tell the truth, he's concluded from

320
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 2: doing that because it's like, hey, I'm not going to

321
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,159
Speaker 2: go to jail and exchange for helping this guy to

322
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,399
Speaker 2: get out. They didn't leave him any real room to

323
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,119
Speaker 2: do the right thing. And thisic attorney, who were instrumental

324
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 2: in seeing to that he plied the fifth. Their feet

325
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 2: aren't held to the fire or anything like that because

326
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:11,760
Speaker 2: they have immunity.

327
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's this guy, Lloyd, who finally found his moral

328
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 1: compass or his some kind of courage to come forward

329
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 1: and tell the truth. And the prosecutor is like, Nope,

330
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 1: we don't want the truth. Yep, we're not interested in

331
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 1: no kind of truth. We're happy the way things are.

332
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 1: And this takes us to February of twenty eighteen. So

333
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 1: now you've been in for what twenty three years.

334
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, approximately. Yeah, And so there have.

335
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,160
Speaker 1: Been a number of Supreme Court decisions in the past

336
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 1: couple decades that have had a significant positive impact on

337
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 1: juvenile justice, and I want to just break those down

338
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 1: for a second. They include that back in two thousand

339
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 1: and five Roper versus Simmons, the United States Supreme Court

340
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: ruled that the death penalty was unconstitutional for juveniles, and

341
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 1: then in two twenty ten, with Graham versus Florida, the

342
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: US Supreme Court invalidated life without parole sentences for juveniles

343
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 1: and non homicide incidents. In twenty twelve, in Miller versus Alabama,

344
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court ruled that mandatory life without parole

345
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 1: sentences imposed on juveniles were unconstitutional in all cases. And

346
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: then in twenty sixteen, in Montgomery versus Louisiana, the US

347
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: Supreme Court made the holding they made in Miller retroactive,

348
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 1: and so due to that very ruling, you received a

349
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,719
Speaker 1: reduced sentence that made you immediately eligible for parole and

350
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,439
Speaker 1: common Please Court Judge Barbara McDermott's fantastic you love her,

351
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:46,360
Speaker 1: right love her, and Judge McDermott, if you're listening, we're

352
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 1: sending you a big shout out and our respect for

353
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 1: having done what you did. It's important that we recognize

354
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 1: when people in positions of power do what's good and right.

355
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 1: So she noted that you could quote continue to fight

356
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: on the street instead of in prison end quote. She met,

357
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: of course, fight to prove your innocence. But on August

358
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: fourteenth to twenty eighteen, you finally came home. What was

359
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: that like when you just walked out the door. Was

360
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 1: there a big crowd to meet you? What did you do?

361
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,400
Speaker 2: Oh man, Well, at the time, there was one very significant,

362
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 2: very special person there to meet me, as my wife.

363
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,679
Speaker 2: She was right there, walked out with a box in

364
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 2: my hand, gave her a big hug, and I kind

365
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 2: of like troted as fast as I could in the

366
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 2: direction away from the prison because in my mind, I

367
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 2: felt like, at any moment, they're going to say, hey, Johnny, listen,

368
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 2: we made a mistake. Man, you gotta come back. So

369
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 2: I wanted to get the hell out of here. She said, hey, man,

370
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 2: you moving kind of quickly, and I'm like, well, you know,

371
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: if you want to get with me, you better come on.

372
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, man, for me, that moment was like a

373
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 2: breath of fresh air and a burning building. I felt

374
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: like I had absolutely won when I walked out those

375
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 2: doors and I got in that car with those prison

376
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: attire and we drove down that route.

377
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 1: Let's not forget that even though you were free, you

378
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 1: weren't really free, right, you were still a convicted murderer

379
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 1: and all the things that go with that. But in

380
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: another good turn of events, there was a new DA

381
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,159
Speaker 1: in town. His name was Larry Krasner, and Larry Krasner

382
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: was a friend of mine and a great man. He

383
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 1: had by this time established one of the most robust

384
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 1: conviction integrity units, run by Patricia Cummings in the country.

385
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 1: And they reviewed your case, and they found all the

386
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: statements that corroborated your innocence. And so June twenty fourth,

387
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, less than a year after you were freed,

388
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 1: all the convictions were vacated and all the charges were dismissed.

389
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: How did that feel?

390
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 2: Well? Let me start off first by saying to Patricia Cummins,

391
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 2: phenomenal woman, and to Larry Krasner, shout out to them

392
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 2: virtual hugs. I love those two individuals. I love the

393
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 2: work that they are doing. I take my head off

394
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 2: to them on that particular day where I was exonerated. First,

395
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: it took about maybe fifteen minutes. The judge said a

396
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: few words, told me I was exonerated. I accepted it,

397
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 2: and the court went on with its normal daily proceeding.

398
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: And I'm like, wow, twenty three years and some change

399
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: versus fifteen minutes, and I walked out of the courtroom

400
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: a freeman. I just felt like I got me back.

401
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: I had felt empowered, and I felt like I could

402
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: then begin my new life.

403
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: And the Ada tom Gata actually told Judge McDermott that

404
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: had the prosecution allowed Lloyd to testify at the post

405
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 1: conviction hearing in two thousand and eight, without the threat

406
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: of being prosecuted for perjury, you would have been granted

407
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: a new trial. Those are powerful words that you don't

408
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: hear often enough from people like him.

409
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: Yep, I actually know him very well, very very decent

410
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: person with courage beyond description. So I'm glad that he

411
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 2: has been in addition to that office and changing the

412
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: trajectory of the way in which that office had been

413
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 2: running for past thirty or some odd years.

414
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: Amen to that as well, and so as many villains

415
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 1: as there are in this story, it feels like there's

416
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 1: almost an equal number of heroes, and I'm glad we're

417
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: recognizing them here and now. And then in August of

418
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, you filed a federal civil rights loss. It's

419
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: seeking damages from the city of Philadelphia. And I have

420
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: to say, in all the years I've been doing this work,

421
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: one of the questions that I'm asked the most is

422
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: people they always want to know that the person who

423
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted, like, surely they got compensation that millions

424
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 1: of dollars and like an apology, right, And unfortunately that's

425
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,479
Speaker 1: not what happens in far too many of these cases. Actually,

426
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: in the large majority of these cases, and yours is

427
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: one of them. Am I right?

428
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually, a lot of cases do not become successful

429
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: on civil wrongful conviction suit. They just aren't successful. And

430
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: it's a year after year process fighting tooth and nail

431
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: to be compensated.

432
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: So Pennsylvania is one of the states that doesn't have

433
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: a compensation statue, you know, and the Innocents Project has

434
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: been leading the charge to pass compensation statutes and laws

435
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: around the country. I think they're now thirty two or

436
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: thirty three states that have them, even then they vary

437
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: widely and some of them provide very very little no

438
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: matter what you went through. But Pennsylvania doesn't have a law,

439
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: and so you haven't received any compensation whatsoever for your

440
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: twenty three years in prison.

441
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 2: No civil lawsuits are still on the way, but as

442
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 2: far as the state saying, hey, look, we apologize, we

443
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: acknowledge you've been wrongfully convicted, and as a gester of

444
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 2: you being able to kid on your out here, no,

445
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: that hasn't happened.

446
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: Well, listen, hopefully it's not too far off, and hopefully

447
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: you will be successful in one of these civil suits,

448
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: so you definitely deserve it. In the meantime, though, I'm

449
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: happy to say that you have welcomed the baby boy

450
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: into the world.

451
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 2: Right, yep, it's my baby boy. His name is Yusuf.

452
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: He's just turned two. He's so advanced. Man, it's so smart.

453
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,959
Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's a beautiful scene. And you have a

454
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: cleaning business now as well.

455
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: Right. I work alongside of another individual, and what we

456
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 2: do is we can clean commercial and residential properties and

457
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: then we also do clean outs, so individuals weren't like

458
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: debris and things like that moved and then sense of

459
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: the dumpster and things like that. We do our best

460
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 2: to provide that service.

461
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: And so, Johnny, for people who are listening out there,

462
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: who are wanting to help, and we know how expensive

463
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: it is raising a little kid. Is there a way

464
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: that people can reach out to you about your cleaning

465
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: business if they're in the Philadelphia area, or to make

466
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: a speech to help, you know, to help cover your

467
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: expenses while you're waiting for what we hope will be

468
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: a successful outcome of a civil case eventually. Is there

469
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: a way for people to contact you?

470
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 2: You can contact me directly. My email is my name

471
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: backwards Barry Johnny eleven eleven at gmail dot com.

472
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: All right, so if anyone can help, has the ability

473
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: to help, and is willing to help, please go to

474
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: the link in the bio. We're gonna have Johnny's contact

475
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: info there to help Johnny and his family. Of course,

476
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: now we have the part of our show that I

477
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: love the most and I think our audience does too.

478
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: We call it, of course, closing arguments, and Johnny, here's

479
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: how it works. It's very very simple. First of all,

480
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: I thank you again for being here with us today

481
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: courageously sharing your insane story and your experience in the

482
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: service of others. And now I'm just going to kick back,

483
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on, and of

484
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: course leave your microphone on so you can share with

485
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: us any other thoughts that you want to impart to

486
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: our large and growing audience.

487
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, and I do appreciate being here.

488
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: The one thing that I'm focusing on right now here

489
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania is hopefully getting the legislatures to realize the

490
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: importance of enacting a law which would allow for parole

491
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: eligibility for people who are serving life sentences and deserve

492
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: to see the parole board. I think it's important for

493
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: a number of reasons. One because to me, if you

494
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: really do the numbers, it's cost efficient. It costs about

495
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: in upwards of maybe thirty seven to forty thousand dollars

496
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: the house and inmate annually, and if the intimate or

497
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: resident is geriatric or in some other type of state

498
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 2: where they need assistance, it can run you up with

499
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: some hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it's cost efficient. Also,

500
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: if you really look at these statistics for an individual

501
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: who has been commuted after serving a life sentence or

502
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 2: has been pardoned or has been released on parole, or

503
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: some other type of situation like that. The recidivism break

504
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: for that type of individual is less than one percent.

505
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 2: So statistics have shown that these type of individuals, this

506
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: class of people mostly do not reoffend. The statistics show

507
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: is less than one percent. So I'll call on the legislature.

508
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: I call on their constituents. It makes sense, man do

509
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: the sensible thing, and that a legislation to say parole eligibility.

510
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: That means an individual would have a chance to see

511
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: the parole board and then leave it to the parole

512
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: board to make that decision based on that individual's case

513
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: and then also what that person has been doing while

514
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: in cons of it. And I put that number in

515
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: maybe twenty five years. So that's what I would say,

516
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: Support a bill for parole eligibility.

517
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to rafel Conviction. I'd like to

518
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

519
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

520
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

521
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

522
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and

523
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

524
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow

525
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flamm.

526
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts

527
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one