1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,840
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,120
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,479
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920
Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:51,840
Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

13
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:03,640
Speaker 3: A Kate, how's it going.

14
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,240
Speaker 1: It's going well. How's it going with you?

15
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,640
Speaker 3: I'm doing very good. Thank you for asking.

16
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,759
Speaker 1: So a couple of weeks ago, we tried to tape

17
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: and you had a very scratchy throat, and it got

18
00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,960
Speaker 1: me thinking. Somebody asked me how you and I take

19
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,400
Speaker 1: care of our voices? Because you know our voices are

20
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 1: important to our job. Do you do anything special to

21
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,039
Speaker 1: protect your voice either day of our taping or you know,

22
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 1: just in general?

23
00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 3: I probably should, but I don't you should.

24
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,319
Speaker 2: I have had situations to where you know, I just

25
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 2: can't clear my throat.

26
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,479
Speaker 3: And of course I've had.

27
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 2: People give me, you know, the honey tea or hot

28
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 2: liquids that will help.

29
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 3: It's something that I've never really tried to do.

30
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 2: I just know, even though I work with my voice

31
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,520
Speaker 2: all the time, I actually have a very weak voice.

32
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,440
Speaker 1: How well I don't hear that I.

33
00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,840
Speaker 2: Can project, you know, And when I say week, it's

34
00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 2: not so much it's it's soft. It's just that if

35
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 2: I talk for an extended period of time, like if

36
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,120
Speaker 2: I'm providing training, yeah, I lack stamina, and that evening

37
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 2: after giving a presentation or teaching, it almost feels like

38
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 2: I have a sore throat.

39
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exerting your voice a lot. I went to

40
00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,000
Speaker 1: a voice coach and we worked a lot on breathing

41
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 1: and wind to breathe so that I could make it

42
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,360
Speaker 1: through a lot of sentences.

43
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 2: You know.

44
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,520
Speaker 1: I record every day, either for our show or for

45
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,240
Speaker 1: my other two shows, or I have an audiobook coming up.

46
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,920
Speaker 1: Literally every day I'm in this closet. So I had

47
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,120
Speaker 1: to go to my doctor probably about a year and

48
00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: a half ago and just say I have cedar fever.

49
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 1: My kids bring home stuff all the time. How do

50
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 1: I stay healthy other than washing your hands and doing

51
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,440
Speaker 1: all the things they talk about. And so my routine

52
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 1: probably isn't intense to other people, but for me, I take,

53
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, like gazertech. I do two different nose sprays

54
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,720
Speaker 1: at night. I do a nasal rinse every single night.

55
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: I only have one cup of caffeine I drink. As

56
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,560
Speaker 1: you notice, I drink pretty much in between each sentence.

57
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 1: I drink a hot tea decaffeinated with lemon. I'm pretty

58
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,120
Speaker 1: specific because if my voice is not up to par,

59
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 1: it totally messes up my schedule and Alexis's schedule and

60
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 1: probably your schedule. So I try to take really good

61
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 1: care of it. But I had never cared before. And

62
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 1: of course when I was speaking either publicly before I

63
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,839
Speaker 1: started doing the podcast or to my students, I would

64
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,799
Speaker 1: get like you did, and my voice would get tired

65
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,280
Speaker 1: and I would start sounding like a prepubescent boy, a

66
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,840
Speaker 1: little bit of voice cracking. And I still get that.

67
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 1: But I think the more you do this, the stronger

68
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:33,640
Speaker 1: your voice gets.

69
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think I'm going to give you

70
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 2: a recommendation that will simplify your voice care.

71
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:39,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Bourbon.

72
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,160
Speaker 3: It really works.

73
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,160
Speaker 1: Are you going to suggest milk also, and I should

74
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 1: have a beer beforehand and hot sauce and everything else

75
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,080
Speaker 1: they tell you not to do.

76
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,839
Speaker 3: No, you just get you get that straight alcohol in there.

77
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 2: It really thins out anything that's in your throat and

78
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 2: it just kind of grease is the skids of that.

79
00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you're never going to get this to happen, but

80
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 1: I really do appreciate you trying, Paul. Okay, well, let's

81
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: turn to our next case, which is again my favorite

82
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,159
Speaker 1: time period, eighteen hundreds, and this is New York State,

83
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,920
Speaker 1: so let's go ahead and jump into it. Let's set

84
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:26,120
Speaker 1: the scene. This story is a humdinger, as my dad

85
00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,479
Speaker 1: would say. I'm sure everybody's dad says humdinger. But this

86
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 1: is a humdinger of a story because it's set in

87
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,280
Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds and it's in the Brookfield hamlet of

88
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 1: Oyster Bay, Long Island. And I'm already gonna warn you

89
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,919
Speaker 1: there are quite a few characters in this cast of

90
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: characters with this story, so I'll do my best to

91
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 1: remind you of who is who and connected. But we've

92
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: got three different crimes that have all been connected together,

93
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,960
Speaker 1: and so it can get a little complicated, but I'll

94
00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 1: do my best to simplify. I know you like simplifying,

95
00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:58,840
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna keep it simple for you.

96
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,520
Speaker 3: Sounds good. I just want to quickly look up where

97
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 3: Oyster Bay is.

98
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 1: I have a map. I don't know if that's at

99
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,080
Speaker 1: all helpful. Oyster Bay. So this is Long Island, and

100
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about Long Island, do you. I mean,

101
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,600
Speaker 1: I've been there a couple of times, but.

102
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 2: You know, I've never been out to Long Island. I

103
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:21,719
Speaker 2: did do a news spot on the Long Island serial Killers,

104
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 2: so I kind of got familiar with that case, which

105
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 2: gave me a little bit of a better understanding of

106
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,800
Speaker 2: the geography of Long Island, you know. But for this case,

107
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 2: and one of the reasons why I'm asking to just

108
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 2: take a look at this Oyster Bay location is just

109
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 2: so I can understand the geography. Because when we start

110
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 2: talking about crime, you know, today, everybody has probably heard

111
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,719
Speaker 2: of geographic profiling, and that is a real thing. Geography

112
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,760
Speaker 2: influences where and how criminals might commit crimes, and so

113
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,279
Speaker 2: I usually want to have at least a sense of

114
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 2: the location before I start really starting to hear the details.

115
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 3: And never heard of Oyster Bay, Long Island before.

116
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 1: You know, I have a question about that. You and

117
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,720
Speaker 1: I have talked about geographic profiling before. What about somebody

118
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,839
Speaker 1: like an Israel Keys who was all over the map?

119
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: Does that break a rule in that medium that you

120
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,360
Speaker 1: would use for profiling.

121
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,080
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when you start dealing with an offender

122
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,680
Speaker 2: that is traveling wide distances, you know, of course, the

123
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 2: more data points that you have, the more crimes the

124
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,280
Speaker 2: offender commits within a particular area that is more informative geographically.

125
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 2: Whereas let's say you have the one off case like

126
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 2: with Israel Keys going all the way out to the

127
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,919
Speaker 2: east coast. Now you can't really reconcile how the geography

128
00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:47,480
Speaker 2: is influencing his movement patterns as much. However, that one point,

129
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 2: there may be features about that location that made it

130
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,040
Speaker 2: easier for the offender to commit the crime, and that

131
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 2: may be the reason why the offender chose that location

132
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,880
Speaker 2: over the victor. Instead of saying I'm targeting these victims,

133
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 2: I know I can find victims within this geographic region,

134
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 2: and that geographic region makes it easy and lowers my

135
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 2: risk in order to commit the crime and get away

136
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:12,200
Speaker 2: with it.

137
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense back to eighteen eighty three, which

138
00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 1: is where we are in the hamlet of Oyster Bay,

139
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 1: Long Island in this time period eighteen eighty three. It's small,

140
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: it's a quiet farming community in Queen's County, New York.

141
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: And one of our main characters is a seventy year

142
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,240
Speaker 1: old man named Garrett Maybe, and he's going to have

143
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 1: two women in his life die very soon. And before

144
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 1: you ask, he is not going to be a suspect.

145
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 1: He is going to be a victim that survives. And

146
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,720
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why he is not a suspect. All

147
00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 1: of this happens early on a Saturday, November seventeenth, So

148
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 1: these crimes that we are connecting are all winter. They

149
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 1: all have snow. Everybody has snow on the ground in

150
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 1: this time, and that actually plays in the story. Garrett Maybe,

151
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, is a seventy year old man, and

152
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 1: in early morning hours on this Saturday, he screams for

153
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,600
Speaker 1: help and the neighbors here, and the nearest farmhouse is

154
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 1: about one hundred yards away across from the road, and

155
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 1: the neighbors come. When he screams, the neighbors come across

156
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 1: the road. Six men had toward the Maybe farm and

157
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 1: they all have shotguns and shovels, preparing for the worst.

158
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,120
Speaker 1: So Garrett is not going to be a suspect because

159
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: years ago Garrett suffered a stroke that left him paralyzed

160
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,680
Speaker 1: from the waist down. He is also completely blind. Oh wow,

161
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: so he can't move and he has been really brutally assaulted.

162
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,640
Speaker 1: So we'll talk about what happens. First, let's talk about

163
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,840
Speaker 1: the family and who the victims are. So there's Garrett

164
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,480
Speaker 1: who is seventy, his wife, Lydia, who is seventy three

165
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 1: years old, and then Annie, who is his thirty nine

166
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,520
Speaker 1: year old unmarried daughter. And they live in this farmhouse

167
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,840
Speaker 1: on eighty acres of land and this is historic farmland

168
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,840
Speaker 1: and they're not well to do, but you know, well

169
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,640
Speaker 1: enough where they have some nice belongings. So the men

170
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 1: rush into the Maybe farmhouse because they can hear Garrett screaming.

171
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,079
Speaker 1: He's in his chair. He's barely conscious because one of

172
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,400
Speaker 1: the neighbors said he is bleeding profusely from a severe

173
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,800
Speaker 1: wound over his left temple. He says that he's been

174
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 1: beaten very badly, and he actually survives and he's able

175
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 1: to talk. So the men are frantic because it's early

176
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 1: in the morning and it's cold outside, and Garrett is

177
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,200
Speaker 1: trying to explain what happened. He first says, please go

178
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,680
Speaker 1: check the barn because his wife and his daughter are

179
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 1: out there. And so these six men, all armed with

180
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,680
Speaker 1: their shotguns, walk out about two hundred yards from the

181
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 1: house to the barn. One of the men is a

182
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,880
Speaker 1: guy named William Remsen, who is a witness. He has

183
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 1: nothing really to do with the story. He describes what happens.

184
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 1: He opens the barn door and he grabs a lantern

185
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 1: that's already been lit, we presume by one of these women.

186
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,800
Speaker 1: He looks around and he described being able to see

187
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,720
Speaker 1: two women. He says, as I went climbing to the

188
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,559
Speaker 1: hay mow, which is a part of the barn where

189
00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 1: the hay stored, I noticed a hand sticking up in

190
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,600
Speaker 1: an empty cow stall. Jumping down, I found, partially covered

191
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,719
Speaker 1: over with dead leaves, the body of Annie, who was

192
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 1: the daughter. He said. From the position in which she

193
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 1: was lying, I judge she must have made a desperate

194
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,040
Speaker 1: struggle for her life. And in the corner, completely covered

195
00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,040
Speaker 1: by the leaves, lay the dead body of her mother.

196
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,240
Speaker 1: The latter's body the mother's body was cold, but Annie's

197
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 1: body was warm, and there was no blood visible. The

198
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 1: only markings of violence were prints of what looked like

199
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,600
Speaker 1: a thumb and a finger on their throats, and in fact,

200
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,040
Speaker 1: the corner said that they were strangled to death. And

201
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 1: it turns out that Garrett has been hit with what

202
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 1: appears to be a hammer. So as of right now,

203
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,200
Speaker 1: you've got two women who are dead in the barn,

204
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 1: and then the patriarch of the family has been beaten

205
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,200
Speaker 1: profusely in the house. Just hearing that, just that bit,

206
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,080
Speaker 1: what do you think is potentially what happened? And I

207
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 1: will say they said there is no sign of sexual

208
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 1: assault on either woman. We always have that caveat that

209
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything, but this seems like a pretty brutal scene.

210
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,000
Speaker 2: One thing that really stands out to me is you

211
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 2: have victims in two different structures. You have Garrett, who's

212
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 2: inside the main house, and then you have the two

213
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 2: women who are found dead out in the barn. So

214
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 2: now I'm starting to piece together Garrett is aware that

215
00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 2: his wife and daughter were out in the barn, so

216
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:41,959
Speaker 2: this must.

217
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 3: Be something that happened.

218
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,199
Speaker 2: They moved and separated themselves out in the barn when

219
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,720
Speaker 2: there is no threat present. As my guess, the offender

220
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,079
Speaker 2: or offenders then came in and there's no information right

221
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 2: now to be able to determine the sequence as to

222
00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 2: who was attacked first. You know, where the women attack

223
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 2: in the barn first? And did the offender move into

224
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 2: the house maybe thinking there's valuables in the house and

225
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,680
Speaker 2: there's Garrett and he's very easily dispatched right now, that

226
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 2: stands out to me, and so this is something that

227
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to be kind of keying in on as

228
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 2: you move forward as to, Okay, are we dealing with

229
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 2: multiple offenders? Are we dealing with a single offender that

230
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,800
Speaker 2: moved into two different structures? And then ultimately what else

231
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,920
Speaker 2: is observed as happening within either the barn or the

232
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 2: main house. Is there any disturbance inside the house like

233
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,559
Speaker 2: somebody is searching, like there is a burglary slash robbery?

234
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,560
Speaker 2: Aspect to this case, what was the state of dress

235
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,079
Speaker 2: of the two women? Was Annie the younger women, maybe

236
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,440
Speaker 2: more focus was put on her in a sexual manner

237
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 2: just due to her youthfulness versus you know, Lydia being

238
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,480
Speaker 2: seventy three years old. So that's kind of what I'm

239
00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 2: setting myself up mentally to start checking the boxes as

240
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 2: you give me more details.

241
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: Okay, let me give you more details. Because Garrett has

242
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 1: been coming in and out of consciousness, and when the

243
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,760
Speaker 1: investigators come, he manages to explain what his remembrance of

244
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 1: the sequence of events were that night. So it's early

245
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,720
Speaker 1: in the morning. Lydia, who is his wife, has gone

246
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 1: out to the barn at four thirty to milk the cows.

247
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: This was predictable. She did this every morning at four thirty.

248
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 1: So she goes to the barn and Garrett's listening waiting

249
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 1: for her to come back. She wasn't back at five,

250
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 1: so after thirty minutes she wasn't back. He became alarmed,

251
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 1: so he turned to his daughter Annie and said, go

252
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,040
Speaker 1: check on mom. When Annie didn't return, he became incredibly

253
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 1: alarmed because there were footsteps in the house and he

254
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,679
Speaker 1: knew that the footsteps didn't belong to either woman. So

255
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,800
Speaker 1: he says he's bracing himself. He calls out into the

256
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 1: darkness and said, who's there, And there's a man's voice

257
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,040
Speaker 1: who was low in pitch, and he said me. Then

258
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,199
Speaker 1: Garrett heard this person go upstairs, rustle around for a

259
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,080
Speaker 1: little bit and come back down and say give me

260
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 1: your watch. And Garrett said to the intruder, I'm blind.

261
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,679
Speaker 1: I don't even know where my watch is. It's four

262
00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 1: point thirty in the morning. I didn't put it on.

263
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 1: The stranger said, then I will kill you, and he

264
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 1: grabbed Garrett's cane, which was nearby, and beat him until

265
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,240
Speaker 1: he knocked him out, which is where we get the

266
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: left temple wound. Garrett eventually regained consciousness and that's when

267
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,000
Speaker 1: he started screaming for help. So we know that upstairs

268
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 1: is Lydia's bedroom. There's a bureau and inside there are

269
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 1: a lot of valuables that this person takes cash, a

270
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 1: cameo broach, a gold chain, a gold watch. It's about

271
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 1: four thousand dollars in today's money. Oh wow, Okay, yeah,

272
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 1: it's a lot. And this is a specific space. The

273
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: reason I'm emphasizing the voice so much is because the

274
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: voice comes into play later on, and we've never really

275
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,400
Speaker 1: talked about, you know, voice recognition, voice identification. So I'll

276
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 1: be interested to see what you say about all that.

277
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,440
Speaker 2: Sure, one thing really really stands out about what you

278
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: just said, you know, first, Garrett, though he suffered head trauma.

279
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 2: The details that he's providing, he is very much alert

280
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,560
Speaker 2: prior to being attacked, and that's significant. So I would

281
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,760
Speaker 2: think the fact that this male voice, he's inside the

282
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 2: house and then you have a man, the homeowner, yelling

283
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 2: out and the offender doesn't engage with this threat inside

284
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,800
Speaker 2: the house almost tells me that this offender has prior

285
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,360
Speaker 2: knowledge that Garrett is disabled. And so the man goes upstairs,

286
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,000
Speaker 2: has prior knowledge where the valuables are, and then comes

287
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 2: down and becomes the threat and attacks Garrett, you know,

288
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,080
Speaker 2: because Garrett doesn't want to give him a watch or

289
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 2: can't give him the watch. So now that's intriguing to me. Now,

290
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,560
Speaker 2: could the offender have been told by Lydia or Annie,

291
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,600
Speaker 2: you know, hey, don't hurt our dad, he's disabled. You know,

292
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 2: maybe he had got information right then and there. But

293
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 2: I'm leaning towards somebody who has inside knowledge about this

294
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 2: family a little bit. Is this a farm hand? Is

295
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 2: this somebody who knew the family and waited for, you know,

296
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 2: Lydia to separate herself so he could take Lydia out,

297
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 2: And then Annie happened to come out, and he takes

298
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 2: Annie out. And now he knows he doesn't have any

299
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 2: resistance from Garrett inside the house.

300
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 1: Well, let's see if you're right. We'll find out in

301
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 1: a little bit. The timeline that Garrett offered seemed to

302
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,080
Speaker 1: line up with what the witnesses say they discovered when

303
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: they went into the barn, which was we know Lydia

304
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 1: went out first. According to Garrett, her body was cold.

305
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 1: I know it was very cold in November, but Annie's

306
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 1: body was still warm. So the sequence of events seems right.

307
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like he's lying, and nor would he

308
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,680
Speaker 1: have a reason to. But all that winds up. Let

309
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 1: me tell you what the doctors say. So according to

310
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 1: the coroner's report, and this is eighteen eighty three Corners reports,

311
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 1: they observe that Lydia's face and head, So this is

312
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 1: the mom shows signs of congestion, which I noted to

313
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: you in my little prep document and I looked it

314
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 1: up and it said full of blood. Can you explain

315
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what signs of congestion is.

316
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: Well, this is a feature that is seen in the

317
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,360
Speaker 2: faces of somebody that's been strangled. So when the blood

318
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,639
Speaker 2: is restricted through strangulation in the neck, you know, the

319
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,399
Speaker 2: heart is still pumping and the blood typically is now

320
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 2: being pushed up through the caroted arteries up into the head,

321
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,160
Speaker 2: and then if there's no obstruction, it will drain out

322
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 2: of the head through the jugular veins. But now when

323
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,199
Speaker 2: there's constriction around the neck, you know, you have a

324
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 2: moment in time in which blood is still able to

325
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 2: flow up into the head, but it can't get out,

326
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,639
Speaker 2: and so pressure builds up. And now you start to

327
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 2: see this flushing of this face is congestion as the

328
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 2: blood is trapped up into the head and the pressure

329
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 2: actually can build up quite dramatically in the head. And

330
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 2: this is where now you give the smaller blood vessels

331
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 2: the capillaries like bursting in the eyes, the spatikia or

332
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 2: in the eyelids. And then eventually you also can see

333
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,680
Speaker 2: even around the heart, you know, some blood vessels bursting

334
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 2: or a congestion fluid build up inside the lungs, all

335
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 2: from strangulation. So the body reacts to blood being restricted

336
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,199
Speaker 2: at the neck more so than just shutting off the

337
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 2: blood flow.

338
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: That's interesting. In the corner said that Annie had three

339
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,680
Speaker 1: marks on the left side of her neck and one

340
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 1: on the right, showing clearly the prints of the murderer's fingers,

341
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,880
Speaker 1: and her left hand is described also as congested, as

342
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 1: if been firmly gripped. Is that the same concept? I mean?

343
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 1: Is that true? Would you really see that blood pool

344
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 1: with a gripping somebody's hands so much with.

345
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 2: The hand, I would expect that what is being described

346
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 2: as more of a contusion, you know, like a bruise

347
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 2: to the hand. Okay, But of course when there is

348
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,880
Speaker 2: manual strangulation, you can see outlines of you know, the

349
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 2: the fingers, the fingertips, as that particular spot on the

350
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 2: neck is receiving more force.

351
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's go through the investigation. Because, as you

352
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 1: can imagine, this alarmed Oyster Bay, and this was a

353
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,719
Speaker 1: small farming community not used to this sort of crime.

354
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,920
Speaker 1: So a double murder and an incredible assault was very

355
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: upsetting to people, and the public was pressuring investigators of

356
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,239
Speaker 1: course immediately to track down people, track down witnesses. So

357
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 1: in the following days they alert police. All these neighbors

358
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: alert police to a man that they described as a

359
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 1: five foot six, redbearded they called hobo. I would say, drifter.

360
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 1: I suppose that has been around in the Bay area.

361
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: Somebody who has sort of just been in and out

362
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: they didn't really recognize, but someone who didn't look like

363
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 1: he was up to any good. Several men fit this description,

364
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 1: and they're arrested over the next few days, but for drifters,

365
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,880
Speaker 1: they all had airtight alibis, it seems, so this led nowhere.

366
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,439
Speaker 1: No murderer is caught for quite a while. There is

367
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: a man named James Doyle who is a drifter, and

368
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 1: he was identified by Garrett's son in law as the

369
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 1: man who had been sort of walking around the maybe

370
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 1: property without permission in the weeks leading up to this,

371
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: And this checks out. Doyle had been living in a

372
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: community home that was only about a quarter of a

373
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 1: mile away from where the murders happened. So then they

374
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 1: start doing the infamous shoeprint comparison. We've talked about shoeprints

375
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: before and whether they're accurate. They took the shoeprints that

376
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: were outside and I don't know if it was snow,

377
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 1: but they felt confident that they could really see the

378
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: treads and everything, and they took his shoeprints and compared

379
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,880
Speaker 1: them to the prints near the crime scene, and they

380
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,639
Speaker 1: appeared to fit when do shoe prints really work in

381
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 1: a case? When are they helpful? I mean, are they

382
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 1: if they're Italian loafers that were specially made for one person?

383
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: Is that it?

384
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 2: Are you talking about like Bruno Mallley's and leaving prints

385
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: in the victim's blood like an OJ Simpson?

386
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we've talked about how when you find

387
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 1: biological evidence on a piece of clothing from a suspect,

388
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: that that can connect them. But as simple I have

389
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: a Nike Air that's you know, a size fourteen men's

390
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 1: that can't do it right.

391
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, there's there's definitely layers to this question in

392
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 2: terms of how helpful shoe prints or shoe impressions are.

393
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 2: You know, first is the quality of the print. How

394
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: much detail is actually recorded when people are walking. Oftentimes

395
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: just the movement of the foot, you know, heel to toe,

396
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 2: et cetera, can disrupt that print, so they're not as

397
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 2: good as if somebody were to just step straight down

398
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 2: and leave a nice, unobscured outline. In this day and age,

399
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: of course, now you have let's say, a quality shoeprint

400
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: at a crime scene, you can readily see the details

401
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 2: of the tread pattern and now it's okay, what make

402
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: model shoe, yeah, has this tread pattern, And there's complexities

403
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: with that. Some making models have very unique tread patterns

404
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: that are only on those making models, and then other

405
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: tread patterns are across different makes and models. You know,

406
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 2: they're almost like generic tread patterns that are purchased. These

407
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: outsoles are purchased, and then different manufacturers use those same

408
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: outsoles on their own product. And this is where having

409
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: expertise in the manufacturing of the shoes to assess, you know,

410
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 2: how common or rare this tread pattern is. But shoeprint

411
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: and shoe impression evidence can be valuable for sure.

412
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: Well, in this case, these are shoeprints that are not

413
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: found inside the house or inside the barn. They're just

414
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: on the property, not far from the house or the barn.

415
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 1: So if I were James Doyle and I initially said

416
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: I've never been there before, and someone said we found

417
00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 1: your shoe print, I would say, oh, you know what,

418
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 1: maybe I have I don't know. I drift around, I

419
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: don't know, and there's no way to say because it's

420
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: not inside the house or upstairs where the bureau is.

421
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: So there are several things in this particular case that

422
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: are pretty sketchy. Here's the next one. So Garrett says

423
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: he's never met this man, James Doyle, who they bring in.

424
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 1: But Garrett says, he really feels like he can remember

425
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: the voice who said me and then who said I

426
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: will kill you. So they bring James Doyle in and

427
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: he is told and you know where this is going,

428
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: he has said repeat these words over and over again,

429
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: and Garrett says, that's the guy. That's the guy who

430
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: said those words. That was an eye roll. I don't

431
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: know if I've ever seen you eye roll before.

432
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know, this is where how much bias has

433
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 2: been predisposed into Garrett. You know, here investigators are bringing

434
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: a singular mail in having him recite the line. This

435
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: is very akin to how not to do a photo

436
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: lineup where you come in with a single photo of

437
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 2: a person and say, is this the guy your partner

438
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: is sitting there kind of going to say yes, you know.

439
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: So that's where it's tough to put any weight on

440
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: this witness testimony that this voice is what he heard.

441
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: So right now, if we have Doyle's shoe prints that

442
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: aren't inside the two actual crime scene locations or just

443
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: outside that really weakens that evidence and this voice recognition.

444
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: I would say I can't put any weight on that

445
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 2: the way that it was conducted, and even if it

446
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: was conducted in a more robust manner, I still think

447
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 2: it's relatively weak. At this point in time, there isn't

448
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 2: enough to say, well Doyle is the killer.

449
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the jury agrees he had been arrested, he

450
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: was put on trial, there wasn't enough evidence, he was

451
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: found not guilty and released. So the maybe murders of

452
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: these two women go unsolved, and Garrett, of course is

453
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: incredibly upset and still pressuring investigators. So here comes another

454
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: attack less than two months later. So now we're in

455
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: January of eighteen eighty four, the next year, and there's

456
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: another home invasion, and this is also in Oyster Bay,

457
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: just three miles from the Maybe's farm. So in this attack,

458
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: it's a wealthy couple named mister and missus James Townsend,

459
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: and they are discovered badly beaten inside their home. They

460
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: both survive very similar circumstances, a home invasion where things

461
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: are taken, and this is I guess when geographic profiling

462
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: comes in. Also, this is very close The time between

463
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: these two attacks is just two months later, and they're

464
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: discovered around seven o'clock in the morning. They both have

465
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: horrific head wounds, but Missus Townshend isn't a lot better

466
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: shape than her husband. She's covered with blood which was

467
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: matted in her gray hair, and there are pools of

468
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: blood formed near her and an adjoining lounge. Her husband

469
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: is lying unconscious and bleeding from the head wound, and

470
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: she is trying to describe who the attackers are and

471
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: she thinks maybe a black man, but there's no specifics there.

472
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: She's not a particularly good witness. However, underneath the kitchen

473
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: table they find a weapon, which is a mason's hammer

474
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: covered in blood and hair. And I'm going to give

475
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: you a hint. These are connected cases. So we've gone

476
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: from an old man being beaten with his own cane

477
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: to it seems like someone brought a weapon with them

478
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: to this home invasion.

479
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: Okay, and the towns as you mentioned that Missus Townsend

480
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: had gray hair, do you ye know they're ages.

481
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: Elderly, you know, over seventy, but survived.

482
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: So we have Garrett and Lydia maybe are in their seventies.

483
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: Now we have mister and missus Townshend are also in

484
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: their seventies, so we have similar victimology in terms of age.

485
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: The Townsend's also had assets I'm assuming decent financial assets.

486
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, okay, so very similar to the Maybes. I'm

487
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: starting to see a pattern. It's only you know, two

488
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: cases right now, but is this an offender that is

489
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: going after elderly couples in part because this offender has

490
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: the self confidence that physically he would be able to

491
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: control these couples. Plus, these couples have the financial assets

492
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: that make committing this crime worth his time.

493
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: And I think that you're right, it's obviously a pattern

494
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: that's happening. My question is how well does the offender

495
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: need to know these two families in order to pull

496
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: this off. Is this a simple observing at least with

497
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: the Townsend's just observing them coming in and out and

498
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: casing the place, or do you have to feel the

499
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: level of comfort that you can take out mister Townshend

500
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: by actually knowing him and whatever his physical characteristics are.

501
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 2: Well, most certainly if the offender has detailed knowledge of

502
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: the victims, their life patterns, et cetera, that helps the

503
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: offender plan the attack. But it's surprising how well, let's say,

504
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: a serial burglar, how insightful these types of criminals are

505
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: from just observing from afar and what they can determine

506
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 2: about the victims, what they can determine about the property,

507
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: about the amount of financial assets disposable income the victims have,

508
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: and likely the types of valuables that might be inside

509
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 2: the house without ever knowing the victims or going inside

510
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: the house ahead of time. They're very in tune with

511
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: observing neighborhoods and focusing in on those victims and those

512
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: houses that are going to be fruitful to the efforts

513
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: that they're going to put out. So it's tough at

514
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: this point to say that the offender in the Maybe

515
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: and Townshend's attacks had to know both. That's where I

516
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: kind of go back to the offender, at least in

517
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: the Maybe attack, in my opinion, was aware that Garrett

518
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: was not.

519
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: A threat when he's inside the house.

520
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: Otherwise he would have gone and attacked Garrett first before

521
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: going upstairs.

522
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: This is a small community, I'll remind you as we

523
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: move forward. This is a small community where a lot

524
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: of people work with each other, a lot of people

525
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: know each other. And what the police are saying, the

526
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: investigators are saying is that they absolutely believe that these

527
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: two cases are connected because this sort of thing just

528
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: doesn't happen in the area. There is a pair of

529
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: overalls that have blood stains which are found on the property,

530
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: and of course they also have that mason hammer. So

531
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: before I even tell you about these overalls, this is

532
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: one of many cases that I have reported on where

533
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: people leave behind items of clothing. I do not understand it.

534
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: Is it because they're going to get spotted and they

535
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: don't want to get spotted with blood? I guess that

536
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: makes sense, But stripping down right there on the crime

537
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: scene just seems crazy to me.

538
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: Well, with something like the over likely the offender had

539
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: a full set of clothes underneath, especially if this was

540
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: a planned attack. Maybe the overalls were really being worn

541
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: in the vein of as an apron, knowing that there's

542
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: a chance that there could be blood. But here in

543
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty three, of course they couldn't do anything with

544
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: that blood outside of say, that looks like blood, and

545
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: so the offender if he's looking at himself and going

546
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: I'm covered with blood, I can't be wandering around town

547
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: like this, he's going to ditch those clothes, and even

548
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: though potentially in this day and age, that would be

549
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: a huge mistake because his DNA's on the clothes and

550
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: the victim's blood is on the clothes.

551
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: This is awesome evidence, but they couldn't do anything with it.

552
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: So at this point, it's a smart decision by the

553
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: offender to get rid of the evidence of violence on

554
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: his clothing. And it doesn't matter that it's just left

555
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: there right at the crime scene because they didn't have

556
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: the forensics that we do today in order to do

557
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: anything with it.

558
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, it really trips up this one man named John Tappan.

559
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: So John Tappan is white. And remember missus Townsend had

560
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: reported she thought the attacker was black, but she wasn't sure.

561
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: So John Tappan is a local man who takes odd jobs,

562
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: but his main job is as a stonemason, okay, And

563
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: these are his overalls and that is his hammer. So

564
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: his wife identifies the overalls as he says they are mine.

565
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: He says the mason hammer is his. He also says,

566
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: I was one of the six responders to Garrett's cries

567
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: for help on the other farm, so he was one

568
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 1: of those witnesses.

569
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: He's putting himself at the initial homicide location and then

570
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: his overalls and he's admitting that this ason hammer as

571
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: his are at the second location. Now is he saying, well,

572
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: those must have been stolen by you know, the actual killer,

573
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: Ding Ding Ding.

574
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: That's it, Okay, he said they were stolen. He actually

575
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: gave he was very nervous and he gave a lot

576
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: of different answers, unfortunately for him, and he said they

577
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 1: were stolen, that those have been missing for a long time.

578
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: One of the other issues is that he also worked

579
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: in the Maybe home. So not only was he a

580
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: first responder to Garrett's cries, he had actually done stonework

581
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: for the Maybees at some point, as he had with

582
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: many families in that area.

583
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so you know, he's kind of checking the boxes

584
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: that I've put out there in terms of what I

585
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: think about this offender.

586
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: Ye.

587
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: Now it gets into these two crimes are obviously there's

588
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: a huge financial motive. Is there anything going on what's happened,

589
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: you know financially? Is he in financial distress? Is he

590
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: needing to commit to these types of crimes in order

591
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: to get Does he have a criminal history involving burglary.

592
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: You know, this is where now assessing him as a

593
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: suspect and ultimately trying to figure out does he possess

594
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: any of these stolen items from these two attack locations.

595
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: That's a note to all of those questions. He didn't

596
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: seem to need the money. He had steady work, He

597
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: had done a variety of things, but he was a

598
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: stonemason consistently. He had a farm of his own homestead

599
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: and he lived there with his brother. He didn't seem

600
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: to have any prior history, no criminal history, and you know,

601
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: all of this is very confusing to John Tappan about

602
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: how these items ended up. I mean he even testified

603
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: at the inquisition, the initial inquest into what happened with

604
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: the Maybes, you know, a couple of months ago. So

605
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: he is all over both of these cases. And then

606
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: things get pretty bad for John because the investigators had

607
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: been keeping an eye on a man named Edmund Tappan,

608
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: who is John's brother. Edmund lives very very close to

609
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: the Maybe homestead, and they had kept an eye on

610
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: him because he either had a learning disability or a

611
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: mental illness. He acted differently. It made investigators uncomfortable and

612
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: they thought because of his proximity to the Maybe homestead

613
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: that he had been involved and maybe he and John

614
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: did all of this together. So they questioned Edmund Tappen

615
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: and he has a complete breakdown and he says that John,

616
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: his brother, actually did kill Lydia and Annie Maybe went

617
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: into the house got the valuables. He gives a pretty

618
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: extensive confession with some vagueness though, and John said, I

619
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: have no idea what's happening. And Edmund said, my brother

620
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: did it, killed the two women on the Maybe property,

621
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: took all of the loot and sold it at a

622
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: pawn shop and then gave him Edmund ten dollars to

623
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: keep his mouth shut. And Edmund actually signed a confession

624
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: had it no. And after he did that, he started

625
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: having convulsions and got very very ill. And I think

626
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that was a big key is

627
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: that people knew him, and they knew that Edmund was unreliable,

628
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: not because he was a liar or shifty, just because

629
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: of his mental state. People couldn't believe what he did.

630
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: Yet this is enough for, you know, the investigators to

631
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: pursue a case against both brothers.

632
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and is Edmund saying that he was actually present

633
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: for both of these attacks.

634
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Nobody's talking about the Townsend. They're

635
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: only talking about maybe at this point.

636
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

637
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: So assessing Edmund's confession, of course, is if a proper

638
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: interview was done. This is where the confession should be

639
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 2: detailing aspects of the crime that have not been made public.

640
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 2: But also when you are dealing with somebody who is

641
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 2: suffering from, let's say a mental disability, this is where

642
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: things get dicey, because it has been shown that people

643
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: with this type of disability are more likely to do

644
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: a false confession. I'm not sure if I'm really confident

645
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 2: with Edmund's confession in this case.

646
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 3: Yet I want to hear more.

647
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: Did he provide sufficient detail where now it's like I

648
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: can verify through physical evidence at the crime scene that

649
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: his confession is spot on, and only people who were

650
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: present would know this.

651
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: I don't believe in this case that investigators withheld information.

652
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: I think that everything that Edmund said tallied with what

653
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: they knew about the case. The problem was the reporters

654
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: had known every detail of the case. Remember the Maybes

655
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: words two months ago. There was plenty of time to

656
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: look at the newspapers and be well versed. Here's the problem.

657
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: They bring in Garrett for another voice identification. Oh boy,

658
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: I know. He listens to Edmund. So Edmund the brother

659
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: who had confessed to his voice and said it's him.

660
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: That's the one who said that I'm going to kill you.

661
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: That's the one who replied me. And that was enough

662
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: to arrest both of these men.

663
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: So Garrett has already fingered James Doyle as being the voice. Yep,

664
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: and that didn't go anywhere. And now he's fingering the

665
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: next prime suspects in the case as being the voices

666
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: that he heard or the voice he heard. I mean,

667
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 2: this really undermines the veracity of Garrett's witness statements related

668
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: to recognizing these male voices.

669
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: That will be an interesting foreshadowing for the rest of

670
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: this case. Garrett is an unreliable witness, and you can

671
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: understand that he's trying to help. Sure he's not doing this.

672
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: It sounds like maliciously. He's trying. He wants justice for

673
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: his wife and his daughter. But Garrett inserts himself a

674
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: little bit more later on. So we've got John Tappan

675
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: and Edmund Tappen in jail awaiting probably a preliminary hearing,

676
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: just to try to figure out if they should go trial.

677
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 1: Two weeks after the town's in attack, there is another

678
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: home invasion on Long Island. It takes place at six

679
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: thirty in the morning. It feels very familiar. Sprague family

680
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: homestead and East Meadow, another prominent family, another elderly family.

681
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: It sounds like the assailant in this case is described

682
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: as a black man. And let's remember that John and

683
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: Edmund Tappan, who are the main suspects in those other

684
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: two cases, are in jail, perfect alibi.

685
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: They're in custody. So now I need to hear details

686
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: about the veracity of the witness statement saying that this

687
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: is a blackmail.

688
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is what the witnesses say happened. It

689
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: is Seally and Sarah Sprague and they are in their farmhouse.

690
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: This man enters wearing a mask and he ambushes Sarah

691
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, knocks her to the ground, and takes

692
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: around thirty eight dollars. The man then bolts with the money,

693
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: at which point Sarah runs to the neighbor's house for help.

694
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: When she returns to the farm, they find her husband, Seely,

695
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: had been knocked out in the barn. He's lying in

696
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: a pool frozen blood and appears to have been hit

697
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: on the head with a large metal bar which is

698
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: found nearby that's used to hold railroad tracks together. His

699
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: skull is fractured and it doesn't look like he's going

700
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: to survive, But then he's taken to the hospital and

701
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 1: he does survive. So this is another very violent attack.

702
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: He only got thirty eight dollars worth of stuff on

703
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: this one. I'm curious about ambushing the wife in the house.

704
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: Why then go to the barn. There aren't valuables in

705
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: the barn, are there?

706
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 3: Well, do we know that that's the sequence?

707
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: I mean, just like with Maybees, it appears that he

708
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: understands this farming culture and he knows early in the

709
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: morning people are going out to the animals, going out

710
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: to the fields or whatever they're doing, and so he's

711
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: taking advantage of the family kind of separating.

712
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: You have strength and numbers if you're together.

713
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: It's harder for him to kind of control a group

714
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 2: than if he can pick him off one by one.

715
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: For me, it's kind of speculatory, but it's a theory

716
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: that I'm putting out here. Is that he's lying in wait,

717
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: knowing individuals out of the house are going to isolate

718
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 2: themselves because they are just going to do their normal

719
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: very early morning routine, and then he is picking them off.

720
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: So when he does go into the house, in order

721
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: to be able to go after the financial assets, he

722
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: has less threat inside the house that he has to

723
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: take on. That's what I think is going on now.

724
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: One of the things in the Sprague case, the victims

725
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 2: are saying it was a black man. However the wife

726
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: said it was a masked man. Did the husband could

727
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: he recall anything about his attack, because oftentimes when you

728
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: have such massive head trauma, you don't remember, you know,

729
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 2: the events that led up to that attack.

730
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: I don't think Seely can say anything. I think this

731
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: is all Sarah's statement and that's it.

732
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: Okay, So maybe you know because if he's fully masked up,

733
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: is she seeing his hands? Is he wearing clothing that

734
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: allows her to see skin color? But also remember that

735
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: in the Townshend case, the wife says she thought it

736
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: was possibly a black man. So now you have across

737
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 2: two cases witnesses saying possibly a black man.

738
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: Right, Okay.

739
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: Now shoeprints come into play in this case to me

740
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: in an unexpected way. So when detectives go to the

741
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: house and they look outside the house, it is snowed,

742
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: fresh snow, and they find shoeprints. They follow these shoeprints

743
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: from the Spragu house all the way to a local store.

744
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: They go inside and the shop owner says, what are

745
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: you guys doing here, and investigators say, we just had

746
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: a home invasion robbery. Be on the lookout for an assailant.

747
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 1: The only thing we know about him is the wife

748
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: says that he is a black man. And the shopowner

749
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: points to a black customer that has just purchased some

750
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: crackers and cheese. Before he can leave, the police stop him.

751
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: And this suspect now is named Charles Rugg and he

752
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: is from Oyster Bay, Long Island.

753
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: He is a local, okay, And do his shoes match

754
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: the shoeprints that are found at the crime scene in snow?

755
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: They do, and Charles isn't saying anything. Charles is petrified

756
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: because by this time, Oyster Bay, this area of Long

757
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: Island is in an uproar. And as soon as they

758
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: see the local sea, investigators walk a man out of

759
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: the local store and they're detaining him, there is a

760
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: lynch mob that's forming, particularly because they see it's a

761
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: black man, so they know that there are three families

762
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: now that have been attacked because word has gotten around.

763
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: This investigation has taken a day or two and they

764
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: find you know, this man. They put him under arrest.

765
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: There is a lot of tension already between the local

766
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: black and white communities in this area, and there is

767
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: a that's forming. Ultimately, the police are alarmed by this

768
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 1: and have to protect him, and they have to take

769
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: him to a local hotel where there are more mobs forming. Finally,

770
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: at night, at around eight o'clock, they move Charles to

771
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: a milk train that's headed to Long Island City and

772
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: then he's booked in Queens County jail. He says, you're crazy.

773
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: I haven't done anything. I don't know anything about these robberies.

774
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about the maybe's and the police

775
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: keep most of this information under wraps, but it's eventually

776
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: revealed that Charles admits to attacking the Spragues, and he

777
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: says that this was, you know, something that was sort

778
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 1: of spur of the moment. He didn't mean to hurt them.

779
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: He didn't get very much money from it. But eventually

780
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: there is an issue because they're trying to connect him

781
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: to all three of these. So he has admitted to

782
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 1: the Spragues, but he won't admit to anything else.

783
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: Okay, Now with the Sprague, this is an unusual situation

784
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: in which the shoe print track goes straight from the

785
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: crime scene to this store yep and from the Sprague attack,

786
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: the offender stole a total of thirty eight dollars.

787
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: Correct very small amount.

788
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: So now Rug, this offender, if he's going straight to

789
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 2: the store, he should have that thirty eight dollars minus

790
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: whatever he purchased at the store on him, unless he

791
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 2: had more cash on him than just the thirty eight

792
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: dollars and the thirty eight dollars was it thirty eight

793
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: dollars in cash?

794
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 3: Was it coinage? You know?

795
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: Is there something more, you know, unique about what was

796
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: stolen that could further enhance the fact that what Rug

797
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: has on his person is truly part of the stolen

798
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: goods from the Sprague house.

799
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: And I think that must have been what led to

800
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 1: his confession in that attack, because you're kind of caught.

801
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: You have footprints that are going from the house to

802
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: this store, and you have witnesses who are saying this

803
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: is probably the person's so I think that's why he

804
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: admitted to that. But there's a huge difference between beating

805
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: someone who survives and a double murder in another case,

806
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: and I think Charles Rugg knows that, and so he

807
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: is trying to be very quiet. Except it turns out

808
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: that they find out Charles Rugg had once worked for

809
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: the Maybes as a stonemason. Okay, this is where mister

810
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: Garrett comes back in. So Garrett maybe is a witness

811
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: once again. This poor man every time someone pops up

812
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: as a suspect, I'm sure he gets his hopes up.

813
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: So Garrett does know Charles, and Garrett says, there is

814
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: no way that he did this to my family. No way,

815
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: He said, I've known him for a very long time,

816
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: long before Garrett even lost his vision. And he said

817
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: that Charles never once went inside their house. He says,

818
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: there's no way that Charles would have known around the

819
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: house to go upstairs into his wife's room and to

820
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 1: find the bureau and to collect all of this stuff.

821
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: He said he would have never known and where those

822
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: valuables were. And on top of that, I don't know

823
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: what this says, either about Charles or about Annie. But

824
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 1: Garrett is not convinced that Charles Rugg, the suspect, could

825
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: have taken Annie. He said, I don't think he could

826
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: have overpowered her. So either she was a woman who

827
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: was in fantastic shape or he was a smaller man.

828
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: But Garrett just said, there's no way in how this

829
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: ever happened, and that's it, And it was starting to

830
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: be convincing to the police.

831
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 2: Garrett is an unreliable witness that is proven at this point,

832
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: and then assessing the physical capability of Rug to be

833
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: able to take out Annie. It's more than just you know,

834
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: physical attributes, it's how did the attack occur? You know,

835
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: did Annie walk into the barn and was attacked you know,

836
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: blitz from behind and then immediately rendered unconscious while being strangled.

837
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: So at this point I can't put any weight on

838
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: what Garrett's saying. The fact that Charles Rugg checks that

839
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 2: box of having what I would say inside knowledge at

840
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 2: the maybe house worked in the occupation than which now

841
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: we have the tapping overalls and then the mason hammer

842
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: found at the Townshend house. You know, there's characteristics about

843
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: rug that are starting to cross all three cases. You know,

844
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: we know he's caught red handed in the Sprague case,

845
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: but he's adding up, you know, in terms of characteristics

846
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 2: as a suspect. Just at this point, he's just a

847
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: suspect for maybe and Townsend. But now the investigation really

848
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: has to drill down. Does he possess any of the

849
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: stolen items from those two other cases? Does he have

850
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: any clothing back at his place that has blood on

851
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: it and they wouldn't have been able to tie it

852
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: to any cases, but you know, of course that would

853
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 2: be something that would be significant. Did he have access

854
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: to Tappan's possessions in order to be able to steal

855
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 2: the overall and tappens hammer. So you have to start looking.

856
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: Can I show that he truly is the one responsible

857
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: for these attacks or do we just have a weird

858
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: set of circumstances that he's falling into. There's coincidences that

859
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: can occur.

860
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: Well, let me catch you up on the Tappans real

861
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: quick before we address those questions that you had.

862
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: So.

863
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: Edmund Tappan has said that he gave a false confession

864
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: in the case that his brother had attacked the people

865
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: in the Townsend House and Edmund says, he just wanted

866
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: the reward money is what he was looking for. And

867
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: this is again, you know, it goes to the state

868
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: of mind of a witness. This is somebody who had

869
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: been in jail. And of course both men are released,

870
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: particularly because they now have Charles Rugg in custody. So

871
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: we talked about evidence that could be conclusive. I can

872
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 1: see a way around this, but you tell me if

873
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: this is really good hard evidence. The investigators go from

874
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: basically door to door to different pawn shops, and they

875
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: went to New York City and they went to a

876
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: pawn shop on the hunch that a robber, that's what

877
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: they would do first is take this stolen stuff and

878
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: have it pawn. They find one of the maybe stolen

879
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: pieces of jewelry, which was the wristwatch that was Garrett's wristwatch,

880
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: and the pawnbroker said, yes, I bought this wristwatch and

881
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: he said, this is the guy who did it, and

882
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: it was Charles Rugg. So the pawnbroker said, Charles Rugg

883
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: is the one who sold me that wristwatch. Charles Rugg says, oh, yeah,

884
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: I did sell that. And he says that he had

885
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: met John Tappan at some point, and of course Charles

886
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: Rugg knows that John Tappan has been accused of this,

887
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: that he's been in jail. I met John Tappan and

888
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: he gave me this stuff and I decided to go

889
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: ahead and pawn it. So he's trying to make a

890
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: connection and when he goes on trial, he's trying to

891
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: pin this on John Tappan. And the prosecutor was very savvy.

892
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: John Tappan was sitting in court and the prosecutor said, okay,

893
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: so John Tappan gave you this stuff and you pawned it.

894
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 1: And Charles Rugg said yes, And he said, why don't

895
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: you identify John Tappan right now? And he couldn't.

896
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that was that was a good move by

897
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: the prosecutor. And you know, I think it's important. You know,

898
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: even though here you have Charles Rugg and he's putting

899
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: on a defense, it's his defense attorney. I'm assuming he

900
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: had representation, it's his defense attorney that is probably crafting

901
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: a defense and knows that Tappen was a suspect and

902
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: has now created a story that would try to exonerate

903
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 2: the incriminating evidence against rug.

904
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: So the tappins are released and Charles Rugg is now

905
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: connected to all three of these because he had done

906
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: work at the Townsend House also, so now they can

907
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: say that Charles Rugg knew all three properties, he knew

908
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: who the inhabitants were, what their physical capabilities were, and

909
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: they connected him to all three. He supposedly confessed to

910
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: all three and actually said, you know, I had an accomplice,

911
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,959
Speaker 1: but then he kept his mouth shut, and we don't

912
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: know if that was true. The eighteen hundred its was

913
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: a notorious time period for terrible reporting, so that was

914
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: the rumor was that he had confessed to all three.

915
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: He is indicted on seven counts, including two for first

916
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: jggree murder, for for assault and robbery, and one for burglary.

917
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: So they really nailed him down. And he is put

918
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: on trial for Annie Maybe he's murderer, who was the

919
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: daughter the thirty nine year old found in the barn.

920
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 1: Prosecutors were concerned that they didn't have enough evidence, and

921
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: then they had decided they were going to put him

922
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 1: on trial for her murder first, and if that didn't work,

923
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: they put him on trial for lydia they were basically

924
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,439
Speaker 1: going to look for a jury who finally agreed with him,

925
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: but it didn't matter because ultimately they said that the

926
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: jury found him guilty. And you know, this was a

927
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: very difficult case, particularly for Garrett. Maybe he took the

928
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: stand to try to describe what it felt like to

929
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: have this man who he thought was his friend, who

930
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: he had known for years, take his wife and his

931
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: child from him, and I think that was very difficult.

932
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: He was doing it all just out of love to

933
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: try to get justice.

934
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 3: Oh sure, yeah, and that's where he's just trying.

935
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 2: As an investigator, you have to assess is this statement reliable?

936
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 3: Is this process reliable?

937
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 2: Because you are dealing with trying to you're trying to

938
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: solve the case, and you're also dealing with suspects who

939
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 2: may or may not have anything to do with the case.

940
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: You got to put the proper weight on the information

941
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: that's coming in and to use Garrett over and over again,

942
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,919
Speaker 2: and this voice recognition capacity was just wrong.

943
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 3: That's really on the police and not on Garrett.

944
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: Well, in just a little of an aside, Charles Rugg

945
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: he was married and he also had a mistress, and

946
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 1: both women failed him in different ways, he was really

947
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: relying on his wife to provide an alibi for at

948
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: least a one or two of the home invasions so

949
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: he wouldn't be execute And she died a few days

950
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: before the trial. And then he has this mistress who

951
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: lives in New York City, and instead of bolstering anything

952
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: about his character, she says, you know, I thought it

953
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: was weird that Charles had suspiciously come into a lot

954
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: of money recently. And this seals the deal for the jury,

955
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: and he is not surprisingly convicted, found guilty of first

956
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:28,399
Speaker 1: degree murder, and eventually executed at the Long Island City jail. Boy,

957
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: what a story you've got. All three of these crimes

958
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: committed within the same proximity. And this just completely freaked

959
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: out the community, little simple farmland in New York in

960
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, and they almost reil roaded quite a

961
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: few people because of that fear. And I know that

962
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: the public can really pressure investigators. We saw this with

963
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: the Idaho case. It must be very difficult to investigate

964
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: high profile cases like this. Yeah, I guess you know

965
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: that's an understatement.

966
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: I think in some ways the investigators in this case

967
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 2: were lucky that in the last case. In the Sprague case,

968
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 2: they literally had the smoking gun, shoe prints in snow

969
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 2: leading straight from the crime scene to the store, and

970
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 2: Rug was still within the general area of that store.

971
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: Absent having something like that, I think there's a good

972
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: chance that probably an innocent person would have been convicted.

973
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: They would have had Garret on the stand saying I

974
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: recognize his voice, you know, and jurors are going to

975
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: just go ahead and convict, you know, And that I guarantee.

976
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: Over the eons, there's so many innocent people that had

977
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 2: been falsely convicted due to the lack of really solid

978
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: objective evidence. Could witness statements, you know, strong circumstances.

979
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 3: Ye, all three cases.

980
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 2: I think circumstantially there's a little bit of physical evidence

981
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 2: in here with the wristwatch out there at the Pond store.

982
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 2: But I do you think that Rug is likely responsible

983
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: in this day and age, particularly to prove the homicides

984
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: most certainly, we would be going after a lot more

985
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: from a physical evidence standpoint to really tie him into

986
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 2: those cases.

987
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: And going back to witness testimony, because we haven't talked

988
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: about that enough, and I'm sure we will in future episodes. Garrett,

989
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: maybe knew Charles Rugg really well. So he positively identified

990
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: a couple of men who he either didn't know or

991
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: barely knew, and yet this man he knew even before

992
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,240
Speaker 1: he could picture him, because he had known him before

993
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: he had lost his vision. I don't know if that's

994
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: sort of as unconscious, biased or trauma from what happened,

995
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 1: but clearly that shows once again, when you're going through

996
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: a trauma like that as a witness, you can't assume

997
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: that this is someone who's going to be able to

998
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: recall every detail when they're going through a trauma like that.

999
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:58,720
Speaker 3: And head trauma.

1000
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 2: That also is a significant aspect to what happened to Garrett,

1001
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: you know, and how did that impact his memory? His recollection,

1002
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: The details he provided leading up to when he was

1003
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: rendered unconscious by the blow to the head is compelling.

1004
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: You know, that adds up with the scene, so you

1005
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 2: know he certainly is alert and seems to have good recall.

1006
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that, you know, with Garrett not

1007
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 2: being somebody who is born blind, so now he is blind,

1008
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 2: and we know that once let's say the eyesight goes

1009
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: that the auditory sense becomes enhanced, but he wasn't born

1010
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 2: that way or hadn't lived most of his life that way.

1011
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,720
Speaker 2: So I bet if let's say Garrett was a lifelong

1012
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 2: person who did not have any site, maybe more finely

1013
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:51,280
Speaker 2: in tuned to be able to recognize aspects about somebody

1014
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: they're hearing inside the house, versus Garrett, who is recently

1015
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 2: in life lacking the eyesight, you know, so he's not

1016
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: as keen at picking up nuances and what he's hearing.

1017
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 2: I tried to take advantage of this scenario, and it

1018
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 2: was suggestioned by a prosecutor in my office on the

1019
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 2: Golden State Killer case, because we had a tape recording

1020
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: of a phone call that the Golden State Killer had

1021
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 2: made to one of his victims, and there was details

1022
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 2: in the backdrop, and this prosecutor suggested, Hey, there's this

1023
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: blind group in San Francisco, see if they can potentially

1024
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 2: pull out more details, which I thought was brilliant. You know,

1025
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 2: ultimately I never did use that group, but it is

1026
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 2: something that you know, you can have people that have

1027
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 2: these extraordinary capabilities.

1028
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 3: It doesn't appear Garrett had that.

1029
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: He's identifying multiple men unfortunately, but even if he had it,

1030
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: I just don't put a whole heck of a lot

1031
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 2: of weight on something so subjective.

1032
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: Well, I love hearing about techniques that people have used

1033
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: in the past, and I still think I suspect are

1034
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: used now that are not so great that really could

1035
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: add to the conviction of somebody who was innocent. So

1036
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: yet again you and I are talking about tools that

1037
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: could potentially be helpful in certain circumstances. Boy, but it

1038
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: is a gray line. You really have to know what

1039
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: you're doing and it has to be part of a

1040
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: bigger package of really solid evidence. So this was a

1041
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: great case to talk about that. I appreciate it, Paul,

1042
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: not for sure.

1043
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 3: It's a fascinating case.

1044
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: Actually, see you next week for an even more fascinating case,

1045
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: I promise looking forward to it. Thanks. This has been

1046
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: an exactly right production for.

1047
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1048
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1049
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1050
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1051
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1052
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1053
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by the Nu Lilac.

1054
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 2: Executive Produced by Karen Kilgeroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1055
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1056
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: buried Bones. Pod.

1057
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1058
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1059
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1060
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's cold cases,

1061
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:23,439
Speaker 1: is also available now