1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. It's officially Halloween season. Yep. Listen, 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: It's always Halloween season for me. But I understand that's 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: not how the rest of the world works. I think 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: the rest of the world is incorrect. But that's fine. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: Here we are. It's October. It is just a heads 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: up for everybody. I have a couple of witchy things 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: in this mix this year that aren't really all that 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: halloweeny in my opinion, because it really becomes a deconstruction 11 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: of like social problems, right, the way religion has been 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: used to torture people. Yeah, that happens with a lot 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: of the witch episodes, honestly, Yeah, there's no way around it. 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: And in the second one that we're going to talk 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: about in an upcoming episode, in particular, we talk a 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: lot there is a lot of research done into it 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: from a psychological perspective, so we talk a lot about that. 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: But today we are talking about Alice Kitler, who was 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft and Kilkenny, Ireland. And although the witchcraft 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: allegations against her are generally seen as nonsense today and 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: really born out of this interlocking family arguing in a 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: personal vendetta that she was pulled into and probably some 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: jealousy for her success in life. Alice Killer often does 24 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: not escape suspicion entirely, even through the modern lens, because 25 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: a good many people think she may have been essentially 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: a black widow, so a serial killer who murdered her 27 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: husband's for financial gain. You'll see why and you can 28 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: come to your own conclusion. But the real tragedy in 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: the case of Alice Kitler and the witchcraft trial that 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: really shocked fourteenth century Ireland, in my opinion, has more 31 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: to do with a woman she employed, who paid a 32 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: very steep price for her association with Alice, and that's 33 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: what we're talking about today. In March of thirteen twenty four, 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: Richard Ladredd, the Bishop of Ossory in Kilkenny, opened an 35 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: inquisition into heresy and ossary, claiming a quote diabolical nest 36 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: had been uncovered. At the center of that alleged nest 37 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: was a woman named Alice Kittler, So the woman that 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people saw as suspicious. This is an 39 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: accusation of witchcraft that predates the more commonly known witch 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: trials by several hundred years. For example, the Salem witch 41 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: trials didn't happen until the end of the seventeenth century, 42 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: and Norway's Varda witch trials, which we've covered on the 43 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: show before, took place a few decades earlier than the 44 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: trials in Salem, but that was still in the seventeenth century. 45 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: And one of the things that has to be considered 46 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: and remembered in this case is the way that heresy 47 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: and witchcraft became conflated as instances of heresy, by which 48 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: we mean just the rejection of Christianity and or the 49 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: Church's influence in people's lives grew in the twelfth to 50 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: the fourteenth centuries, Church officials increasingly characterized anyone criticizing the 51 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: Church as clearly evil, and that characterization escalated to include 52 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: an assumption of association with demons, and witchcraft was soon 53 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: part of that mix. The definition of heresy also expanded 54 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: from people who actually were working to counter the Church 55 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: to basically anyone who expressed any sort of eccentricity or 56 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: seemed odd or lived outside a pretty narrow boundary of 57 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: societal morese. Additionally, there's an element of time and place 58 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: here that is less about people lumping things together and 59 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: more about legal definitions. In his twenty twelve book of 60 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: Bewitched Land, Witches and Morlocks of Ireland, doctor Robert Kerin 61 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: makes the point that this was before Ireland had any 62 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: witchcraft laws on the book, so it fell under the 63 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: auspices of ecclesiastical law, in which witchcraft was defined specifically 64 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: as heresy rather than as a criminal act. So keep 65 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: all of that in mind as Alice's story unfolds. Regarding 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: the Kittler family in Kilkenny, Missus C. J. Murphy, writing 67 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: for the Old Kilkenny Review in nineteen fifty three, stated 68 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: quote among the Norman families who had settled in the 69 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: city was a family named Kittler. Robert le Kitler was 70 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: a trader with Flanders toward the end of the thirteenth century. 71 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: There was also a William Kittler, but nothing of note 72 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: seems to be known of him. The only member of 73 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: this family whose name is remembered through the mists of 74 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: six centuries is Dame Alice Kittler, whose famous trial for 75 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: witchcraft must have shaken all Ireland and had repercussions as 76 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 1: far away as London and Rome. So Alice was born 77 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: circa twelve sixty. That was a little more than ninety 78 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: years after Kilkenny was officially founded by Charter. Alice's year 79 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: of birth is a little wonky if you look it up. 80 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: It's sometimes given as twelve eighty. It makes more sense 81 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: if that is actually the year of her first marriage, 82 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: which is also often listed as twelve eighty. If you 83 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: do the math, that makes sense. Another year that popped 84 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: up for her birth was twelve sixty three. So it 85 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: seems like somewhere along the line a typo or a 86 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: misread happened that has proliferated through a lot of write 87 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: ups regarding these events. Because twelve eighty gets listed a lot, 88 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 1: just know that Alice's first husband, probably married in twelve eighty, 89 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: was William Outlaw. The couple had a son with the 90 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: same name as his father, and her husband, William was 91 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: a banker, and he did very well for himself. In 92 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: thirteen oh two, her husband, William Outlaw Senior, died and 93 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: the details of that death are pretty sketchy, but it 94 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: seems as though it was considered to be pretty sudden 95 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: Alice may have been accused of murdering him, although it's 96 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: unclear if that's the case, and there don't appear to 97 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: have been any official legal actions taken, so it might 98 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: have been a rumor or an accusation that never manifested 99 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: in any kind of actual action. But when William Senior died, 100 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: their son William took over his father's banking business, and 101 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: the younger William became both very wealthy and very influential. 102 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: And this was also in part because the Outlaw family, 103 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: which if you look it up is sometimes written as 104 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: Utlaw ut Lagh, was very well positioned and influential in Dublin. 105 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: In the alleged rumors, she was accused of murdering William 106 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: Outlaw with the help of a man named Adam Deblund. 107 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 1: Sometimes we're also referenced as Adam Blunt, who she married 108 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: soon after William Outlaw's death. While she was with Adam, 109 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: she started to work alongside him and his money lending business. 110 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: Alice and Adam's marriage didn't last especially long, although they 111 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: may have had children together. There's a lack of clarity 112 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: about whether William Outlaw was Alice's only biological child, and 113 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: that perhaps other children often listed as hers, were actually 114 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: step children that had been born during her husband's prior marriages. 115 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: Adam Blund, like William Outlaw Senior, died unexpectedly after a 116 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: strange illness. In thirteen oh nine. Alice was married to 117 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: a third husband, Richard Deval, and after seven years of marriage, 118 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: Alice was widowed for a third time, once again, after 119 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: her husband developed a sudden illness. Richard died in thirteen sixteen. 120 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: After Deval's death, Alice became embroiled in a financial dispute 121 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: with his children over his estate. She fought to get 122 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: her dour that's some of money that was normally set 123 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: aside as a sort of insurance to be paid out 124 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: to a widow if her husband should die. She did 125 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: eventually get the money. This made it the third fortune 126 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: that she had inherited. Alice had become so incredibly wealthy 127 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: that she lent money to King Edward. The second one 128 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: of her business ventures was an inn which had been 129 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: in the family since she was a child, and that 130 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: inn still operates today. Yeah, it's actually a popular tourist attraction. 131 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: You can go have a drink at the pub that 132 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: was owned by the killers. She married her fourth husband, 133 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: John Lapour, in thirteen sixteen, and like her other spouses, 134 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: Lapour was a man of means. He owned a lot 135 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: of property. Eight years into Alice in John's marriage, John 136 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: became seriously ill and he was apparently aware that he 137 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: might not recover from this illness and wanted to update 138 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: his will. And this update left a lot of his holdings, 139 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: some say all of his holdings to Alice and her 140 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: oldest son, William, and diminished or eliminated what his own 141 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: children would receive. When his children visited Alice in John's 142 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: home to check in on their father, they were very 143 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: distraught at what they saw. He was incredibly gaunt. He 144 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: looked as though he had been wasting away for some 145 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: time and maybe had not been administered any help. They 146 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: got very suspicious, particularly when they realized that their father 147 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: had been in the process of amending his will to 148 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: leave everything to Alice and William. And at that point 149 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: they contacted Bishop Richard Ladredd regarding their suspicions that foul 150 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: play was involved and that Alice was the perpetrator. And 151 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: coming up, we're going to talk about Richard Ladredd, but 152 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: first we will pause for a sponsor break. The year 153 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: after Alice had married John Lapour, a new bishop had 154 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: moved to the Osary diocese in Kilkenny. That was the 155 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: aforementioned Richard the Dread and soon Ladred actually had conflict 156 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: with another member of the Lapour family. That was Arnold Lapour, 157 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: who was Seneschal of kil Kenny, Wexford and Carlow. The 158 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: Lapour family had been in Ireland for at least one 159 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years. At this point they had become 160 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: quite powerful, So a seneschal in this instance is a 161 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: government official appointed by the King of England to serve 162 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: as an administrator and sort of like substitute ruler in 163 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: an area. Because bishops also held a place of political 164 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: power and often were in charge of legal matters, this 165 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: meant that if a seneschal and a bishop in an 166 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: area did not agree, it could cause a lot of strife, 167 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: and it definitely did in this instance. One reason there 168 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: was this level of tension and overlap was in part 169 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: because kil Kenny had grown up around a monastery to 170 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: become an important hub for both trade and governance, so 171 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: both the church and the secular government felt that they 172 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: should have primary say over the way the town was run. 173 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: Another issue was that from thirteen oh seven to early 174 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: thirteen twenty seven, King Edward the second was the ruler 175 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: of England. England had claimed lordship over Ireland, but Edward 176 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: the Second was miirred in so many conflicts, both at 177 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: home and abroad, that he was ineffectual in a lot 178 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: of ways, and a lot of Ireland was just kind 179 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: of indifferent to rebellious when it came to anyone from England, 180 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: whether from government or the church. So Ledredd right out 181 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: of the gate was just viewed as an interloper. Richard 182 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: Ledredd was born circa twelve eighty somewhere in England, though 183 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: specifics are unknown. His early life in general is not 184 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: very well documented. We know he became a Franciscan friar 185 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: at some point, and that he eventually made his way 186 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: to Avignon when the papal court was there during the 187 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: papacy of John the twenty second. There have been some 188 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: interpretations of his ride where he describes himself as quote 189 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: brought up, educated and promoted under the wings of the 190 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: Holy Apostolic see as meaning that he literally grew up 191 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: at the papal court. But we don't know that for certain. 192 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: It's also been theorized that when la Dread was sent 193 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: to the Osary Diocese in thirteen seventeen, that he might 194 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: have been tasked with seeking out witchcraft, as that was 195 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: something that John the twenty second was concerned about. John 196 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: the twenty second was the pope who would write the 197 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: doctrine that made witchcraft a form of heresy in the 198 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: eyes of the church. Pope John the twenty second was worried, 199 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: or at least claimed to be worried about people attacking 200 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: him with magic. He had Bishop Hughes Jureau arrested and 201 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: charged with attempted murder through sorcery, and other members of 202 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: the papal court had similar accusations made against them. We 203 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: couch that to say he may have been concerned about it, 204 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: because there is plenty of information that suggests this was 205 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: a little bit more calculated than actual fear. Some of 206 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: these accusations were very likely calculated moves to discredit enemies. 207 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: So though the Pope might have genuinely worried about things 208 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: like witchcraft and demons, he was also really skilled at 209 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: deploying such accusations with very little real concern. Regarding demons, 210 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: Kilkenny does seem to have been perceived by the Church 211 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: as a potential hotbed for sorcery or some sort of 212 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: cultish behavior involving the devil at this time. And this 213 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: could have been as simple as it having become an 214 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: area of prosperity that was not especially beholden to the Church. 215 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: And it seems that Ledread may have certainly learned from 216 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: John to twenty seconds example when it came to exploiting 217 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: these concerns, real or not, for his own benefit. When 218 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: he started his work in Osrey, his first move was 219 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: to assemble all the clergy of the area for a 220 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: formal meeting, and during that meeting the real lax church 221 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: leadership of Kilkenny was informed of all the ways that 222 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: it would be tightening up and enforcing new rules, and 223 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: that included keeping an eye out for heretics. Meanwhile, Ladread 224 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: and Arnold Dupour were at odds just about from the 225 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: moment Ladrede arrived. According to an article from the Old 226 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: Kilkenny Review that is archived by the kil Kenny Archaeological Society, 227 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: Lapour referred to Ladread as quote that vile, rustic peasant 228 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: from England. In an argument, Ladred told Lapour that he 229 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: did not fear him, and Lapour replied with quote, well, well, 230 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: you will meet obstacles wherever you go, indicating that nobody 231 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: in the area was going to be especially cooperative. So, 232 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,479 Speaker 1: in this atmosphere of conflict, and specifically conflict with the Seneschal, 233 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: the Bishop Ledread was very eager to hear the story 234 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: that the Lapour family had to tell him about John 235 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: Lapour's condition. They described their father's truly troubling state of illness, 236 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: which they suspected might be poisoning or even the result 237 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: of some sort of bewitching, and they also hinted it 238 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: how suspicious it was that Alice's previous three husbands had 239 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: also fallen ill. Suddenly, Ladredd charged Alice, her son William Outlaw, 240 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: and ten other people that Alice was associated with three 241 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: men and seven women with heresy. The specifics of these 242 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: charges sound pretty bananas. Soon Alice had been accused of 243 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: things like sacrificing animals, of using magic on her husband's 244 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: to cause their demises, and of mixing potions in the 245 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: skull of a robber. Even the ingredients she was suspected 246 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: of using in her skull concoctions were listed, and they 247 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: were things like clothes from unbaptized children, hair from buttocks, 248 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: yes you heard that correctly, men's fingernails, and even worms. 249 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: And with these elixirs, Alice and her associate were accused 250 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: of manipulating people's behaviors. The seven accusations leveled at Alice 251 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: were one denying the power of Christ and the church. 252 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: Two sacrificing animals to a demon named Robert, who she 253 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: also had a sexual relationship with. Three asking demons to 254 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: advise her in witchcraft. Four having that sexual relationship with 255 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: the demon Robert sometimes also called Robin Artisan. This accusation 256 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: even describes the shape shifting of the demon, indicating that 257 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: it sometimes appeared as an animal and at other times 258 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: as an Ethiopian man. Five having covent meetings in the church. 259 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: Six making powders and ointments or potions from ingredients, including 260 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: those who mentioned a moment ago. The subtext on this 261 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: one indicated that it was these potions used in the 262 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: seventh accusation, which was seven bewitching her husbands and killing 263 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: them for their money. There have been scholarly papers written 264 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: that suggests that it was actually Richard Ledredd who introduced 265 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: these ideas of demonic interactions into Ireland, as similar stories 266 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: had existed in France prior to his assignment at Ossary, 267 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: but don't really appear to be part of any Irish 268 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: records before he was there. Witchcraft and occult practice had 269 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: been known of in the years before Ladread, throughout Europe, 270 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: of course, and in Ireland, but it wasn't considered a crime, 271 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: either civilly or ecclesiastically. It was only perceived as evil 272 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: if it was used to harm, and any charges regarding 273 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: it had to do a specific instances in which someone 274 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: had wronged someone else, So you could be charged with 275 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: using witchcraft to cause someone trouble, like spoiling their crop, 276 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: but you'd only be facing the consequences for the damage 277 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 1: to the crop, not for being involved in the occult 278 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: or witchcraft. But the time of Ladread in Ireland and 279 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: Alice's case are in the early phase of that changing 280 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: in Europe as the concept begun, and to include this 281 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: idea that in order to achieve some level of proficiency 282 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: or power in witchcraft, a person just had to have 283 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: made a pact with the devil. There are, of course, 284 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: theories that all of the wild accusations thrown at Alice 285 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: Kitler were actually catalyzed by Ladred's vendetta against her husband's relative, 286 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: Arnold Lapour, because Arnold and Alice were good friends, and 287 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: Ladred was frustrated he had been assigned to Ossory but 288 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: didn't know anybody or have any friends there, and the 289 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: locals were not interested in his authority. Kilkenny was too 290 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: remote in terms of the English King to have a 291 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: higher up step in to settle these kinds of disputes, 292 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: so Ladred didn't have a lot of tools at his 293 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: disposal when it came to this ongoing beef with Arnold Lapour, 294 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: but he could do what Pope John the twenty second 295 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: had done to his enemies, which was take legal action 296 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: against people in Arnold Lapour's circle. In the case gets 297 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: convoluted almost instantly. When Ledred became concerned that he could 298 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: not manage the situation and kill Kenny, he wrote to 299 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: the Chancellor of the King in Dublin. This was the 300 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: normal order of operations for escalating a situation, but the 301 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: chancellor for the King was a man named Father Roger Outlaw, 302 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 1: a relative of Alice's first husband and a cousin of 303 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: her son William, and at this point, William, who had 304 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: become quite influential, reached out to his cousin Roger and 305 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: discussed the matter, and soon both father Roger Outlaw and 306 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: Arnold Lapour had written to Richard Ledredd telling him that 307 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: he really should just drop the matter. Bishop Ledread was 308 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: unwilling to just let it go, though, and he was 309 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: insistent that this was an issue of faith that should 310 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: not be ignored. He told the Chancellor Roger Outlaw as much, 311 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: and the Chancellor's reply, which was intended it would seem 312 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: to put an obstacle in Richard's path, said that a 313 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: person could not be detained by the church unless they 314 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 1: had been excommunicated for a period of forty days. But 315 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: to Ladread, this was not an obstacle exactly. It was 316 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: more like a fresh project. He was adamant that heretics 317 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: didn't fall under that rule because they were flight risks. 318 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: He issued a citation to Alice which came with a 319 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: court date, and she promptly did exactly what Ladredd said 320 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: that she would, which is that she fled Kilkenny. Her 321 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: court date, though went ahead is planned. The Chancellor actually 322 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: sent a defense team to handle Alice's case, saying that 323 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: she was not required to personally appear to answer a 324 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: charge of heresy, so to be clear. The person Ledred 325 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: had turned to for help in this matter instead sided 326 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: with the accused and used the power of his office 327 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: to provide her with legal assistance. But Ladred still went 328 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: ahead with the case and he declared Alice excommunicated. The 329 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: period of her excommunication was set to more than forty days, 330 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: and then he charged her formally with heresy. But since 331 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: Arnold Lapour had a significant amount of power in kill Kenny, 332 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: he was able to stifle the trial by having Ladread arrested. 333 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: He did not want to give witchcraft accusations any oxygen 334 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: and he was hoping to just shut the whole thing down. 335 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: Bishop Ladread was taken to the prison at Kilkenny Castle 336 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: and he was in custody for seventeen days before he 337 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: was released. During that time, Arnold Lapour and William Outlaw 338 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: offered an open forum for anyone in Kilkenny who had 339 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: issues with Ladredd to state those with the assurance that 340 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: their complaints would be heard and also pursued. The pair 341 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: were surely hoping that enough people would bring them complaints 342 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: that they could make a case that la Dread should 343 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: be recalled by the Pope, but nobody else filed any complaints. 344 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: Realizing that no one was going to come forward, Lapour 345 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: had the Bishop released. When he got out, the Bishop 346 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: was not especially interested in letting things go. He went 347 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: right back to his accusations and even decided he could 348 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: issue a judgment against Alice and her associates and his 349 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: opinion the matter was settled and she was guilty. Ladred 350 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: issued another summons for both Alice Kitler and William Outlaw 351 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: to appear before him in ecclesiastical court on these charges, 352 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: but Alice's friends and relations once again intervened. King's Chancellor, 353 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: Roger Outlaw summoned Bishop Ledread to appear in Dublin in court, 354 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: and the date for his hearing just happened to be 355 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: the exact same date that Ladred had called Alice and 356 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: William to come in to see him. Ladred actually thought 357 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: initially that all of this might work out in his favor. 358 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: He was at last going to get to lay out 359 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: his case against Alice before a higher authority, which is 360 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: something he had wanted all along. Arnold Lapour is said 361 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: to have waited along the road for Ladred to pass 362 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: so he could once again arrest him. But Ladred learned 363 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: of this plan and avoided it. But when Richard Ladredd 364 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: arrived in Dublin, he found that another trap of sorts 365 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: had been laid. Alice Kitler was there and she had 366 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: prepared a defamation case against the bishop for accusing her 367 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: of heresy and sentencing her to excommunication without a fair trial. 368 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: Alice had a lot of money and so she had 369 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: a lot of resources, and she had appealed the bishop's 370 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: ruling and it went to the parliament in Dublin. Had 371 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: she been making this appeal a couple hundred years later, 372 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: she might have been in trouble with higher officials. But 373 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: her case was before the fevered witch hunts of Europe 374 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: and other parts of the world really got into swings. 375 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: So a lot of officials came away from these proceedings 376 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: thinking that maybe Ladred was not really in touch with reality. Yeah, 377 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: they were, like, these charges seem Cokammie to us worked 378 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: in Alice's favor, that she is on the early side 379 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: of things. Bread had been trying the entire time he 380 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: had Alice in his sights to get the authorities in 381 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: Dublin to issue a warrant for her arrest so that 382 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: he could legally detain her. And now all of the 383 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: people he had been trying to get help from were 384 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: allied with Alice against him. Now in the King's Court 385 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: and as part of the proceedings, Arnold Lapour addressed the 386 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: court saying, quote, you know that in Ireland there never 387 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: was found heretics, for it is wont to be called 388 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: the island of saints. But now a stranger from England 389 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: comes and says, we are all heretics and excommunicated, alleging 390 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: for this certain papal constitutions which we never heard of. 391 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: And since the Infamia of that land touches the person 392 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: of us all, it becomes you all to take a 393 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: part against him. And Ladred's early rulings were dismissed and 394 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: he was sent back to his diocese. But once he 395 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: got back to Kokenny, he continued to pursue his case 396 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: against Alice. He was so obsessed and so dogged trying 397 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: to convince higher ups in the church and in the 398 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: government that he was on to something that he eventually 399 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: managed to convince a handful of those people to come 400 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: to kil Kenny for a court session. He had called 401 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: for distance reference. Kill Kenny is about one hundred and 402 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: twenty eight kilometers or eighty miles southwest of Dublin. In 403 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: a car today, that would take maybe ninety minutes, but 404 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: in thirteen twenty four it was a much more time 405 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: consuming journey to convince somebody to make They really must 406 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: have been hoping they could just show up and put 407 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: the matter to rest once and for all, so that 408 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: they could get some peace from Richard Ladredd. This hearing 409 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: took place in Saint Mary's Church, and the people in 410 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: attendance included Chancellor Roger Outlaw, as well as other officials 411 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: from Dublin. In this time, Ladredd formally accused William Outlaw 412 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: of harboring heretics. In a somewhat odd detail, William appeared 413 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: at this hearing in a full suit of armor. And 414 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: there is a plot twist coming, So we're actually gonna 415 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: pause right here for a sponsor break. During the hearing 416 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: on July second, thirteen twenty four, and Kill Kenny, in 417 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: which Richard Ledrette accused William Outlaw the Younger of heresy, 418 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: things got very heated. The accusers and William's defenders argued 419 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: back and forth until Suddenly, all of that bickering was 420 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: ended when William confessed to harboring heretics. Part of the 421 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: preparations for this event was the questioning of a woman 422 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: named Petronilla of Meath, who worked for Alice. Petronella was 423 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: one of the people accused of being part of Alice's 424 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: nefarious group of witches, and Petronilla was questioned while being whipped. 425 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: This is often described as being questioned under torture, and 426 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: while whipping would certainly be torturous, just for clarity, this 427 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: was not the same kind of torture that would later 428 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: be used to question suspected witches. At the time, England 429 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: had a law in place against using torture to gain confessions. 430 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: Whipping was allowed because Petronilla was a servant and servants 431 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: could be whipped according to the law. The whipping was 432 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: certainly enough. Petronilla told authorities that she watched Alice practice 433 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: witchcraft and had participated and acted as a go between 434 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: for Alice and her demon lover. Her recorded testimony was 435 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: brought into the court proceedings against William. In fact, her 436 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: whole case was based on Petronilla's torture induced confession. Although 437 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: William had confessed he was imprisoned only briefly. His negotiated sentencing, 438 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: which was issued by Ladred, was surprisingly not all that harsh. 439 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: To make penance, he had to agree to attend Mass 440 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: three times a day for a year. He also had 441 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: to feed the poor and kill Kenny, and he needed 442 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: to pay for some needed upkeep to the cathedral and chapel, 443 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: specifically the laying of a new lead roof. And William 444 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: agreed to the sentence, but he didn't actually follow through 445 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: and do those things, and that made Richard Ladredd I rate. 446 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: William's disregard for his penance put ladredde in the position 447 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: of weakness. He had worked so hard to get to 448 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: a point where he had successfully prosecuted at least one 449 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: person from the heretic nest he believed was operating and 450 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: kill Kenny, only to have his judgment ignored. He wanted 451 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: to punish Alice Kitler once and for all, but the 452 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: problem was he couldn't find her. He could, however, find 453 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: her servant, Petronella, and she would have to serve as 454 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: an example. On November three, thirteen twenty four, Petronella became 455 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: the first person in Ireland to be burned at the 456 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: stake for witchcraft. William, though was once again able to 457 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: avoid any harsh punishment, undoubtedly due to his status as 458 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: a wealthy and powerful man, he did have to finally 459 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: pay for that church roof. As for the other people 460 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: that La Dread sentenced alongside Alice, because others in their 461 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: group were convicted, there isn't much information regarding their lives 462 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: after the trial, and there are actually, undoubtedly because this 463 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: is from seven hundred years ago, a lot of really 464 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: unsatisfying loose ends in this story. So when did Alice's 465 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: fourth husband, John Lapour die? We don't know what happened 466 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: to his kids who started all of this with their 467 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: accusations unclear? And the big question where did Alice Killer 468 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: end up? Because she vanishes and it is generally believed 469 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: that she used her vast wealth and connections to escape 470 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: to England and she probably lived out the rest of 471 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: her life there. She did take Petronella's daughter Basilia, who 472 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: had also been accused with her kill. Kenny seemed to 473 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: be stuck with Ladredd, though he remained the bishop there 474 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: until his death in thirteen sixty. He published his account 475 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: of the trial in Latin several years after it was concluded. 476 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: In his time in Ireland he was embroiled in witchcraft 477 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: and heresy, accusations, claims that people were plotting to kill him, 478 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: and complaints sent by various officials, including King Edward the 479 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: Third to the Pope asking him to please recall Ladread. 480 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: By the time he died, he had a reputation for 481 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: terrorizing his parishioners with baseless accusations. Yeah, he was not 482 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: satisfied with any of this and really just kept going 483 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: to the point that people were like, somebody, come and 484 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: get your boy, Ladredd, because more problems than helping any 485 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: of us. Uh. In twenty twenty four, Kill Kenny commemorated 486 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: the trial and the death of Petronilla with a full 487 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: program of events including lectures. They did tours, they had 488 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: a reenactment of the trial, and they had a civic 489 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: service of atonement and forgiveness in Saint Kanis's Cathedral. Dad 490 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: is the story of the first witch burned in Ireland. Yeah, 491 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: I have many thoughts that we could talk about on Friday, 492 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: and in the meantime I also had a fun email 493 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: about sewing. This is from our listener Kelly, who writes 494 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: Allow Holly and Tracy. I'm behind, but I've just listened 495 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: to your podcast on paper sewing patterns. I wish I 496 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: had heard it early, as there was a convention on 497 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: sewing patterns in Charlotte, North Carolina in July or August 498 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: of this year that I could have told y'all about. 499 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: Check out patterncon dot com for more information. She mentions 500 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: that it is supposed to be in Atlanta in twenty 501 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: twenty six, so I will be on the lookout for 502 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: that because that would be fun. It's a brand new convention, 503 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: so that's why I had never heard of it. Kelly writes, 504 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: Below are my two rescue dogs, Abby, the gray mastive mix, 505 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: and Hefner, the tan Staffordshire Terrier mix. Hefner passed away 506 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: in January, and we believe Abby is thirteen or even fourteen. 507 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: We've had her since twenty thirteen. Also attached is a 508 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: dress sewing pattern that I will attempt to make for 509 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: my daughter's wedding and the material I will be making 510 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: it out of, which is sharmus. Take care, and at 511 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: least I will be happy to hear more about home 512 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: sewing history any aspect will be interesting to me. Kelly. Okay, 513 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: First of all these dogs, those are kissable faces. They're 514 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: good ones. Second, the pattern that she shared with us 515 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: is when I was very familiar with already. It's a 516 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: pattern by charm Patterns, which is a pattern company run 517 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: by a woman who goes by Gerty who does like 518 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: retro style patterns with some you know, modern cuts and techniques, 519 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: and they're amazing. I love them. If you are a 520 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: pattern person and you're dismayed at how commercial patterns are 521 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: playing out right now, this is a great option. I 522 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: have no reason to tout this other than I love 523 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: charm Patterns and I follow her Patreon and you get 524 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: a free pattern every month with it, and I love it. 525 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: I don't make them all, but I love them all. 526 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: I cannot wear this particular dress. It is like a 527 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: halter thing of the very open back, and I just 528 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: am not built for that. But I love it. And 529 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: I also want to applaud your bravado in making this 530 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: out of Charmus, because Charmus is a pain and that 531 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: took us to work with in my opinion, but it 532 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: gives me a lovely memory of watching Project Runway this 533 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: season that Nick Verios was on and him being in 534 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: mood Fabrics and the way he pronounced charmus when speaking 535 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: Spanish was chamuz and I will never forget it and 536 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: I love it forever. So Kelly, I hope your dress 537 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: turns out beautiful, and I also hope you send me 538 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: a picture of it, because I really want to see it. 539 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: This particular pattern I have met, Like I said, I've 540 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: never used, but I stole a technique from it on 541 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: a wedding dress that I just made. So I hope 542 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: only great success for you, and thank you for sharing 543 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: both your project and your pups with us. And I'm 544 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: glad that you like our sewing stuff. If you would 545 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: like to write to the podcast, you can do that 546 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. And if you 547 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: haven't subscribed to the show, you can do that EASYPC. 548 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: It's easier than sewing. I promise you can do it 549 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: on any podcast platform that you listen on or on 550 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app. Stuff you missed in History Class is 551 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 552 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 553 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.