WEBVTT - BONUS: Forgotten History with Rachel Maddow 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:08.480 Welcome back, SNAFU listeners. We're back to discuss a dicey subject, 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:14.040 a far right coup, an attempt to overthrow the democratically 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:20.279 elected government of the United States of America. Because you'll 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.599 never dee our country with weakness. You have to show 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:26.320 strength when you have to be strowing. 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:31.920 We all know. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:42.360 Nope, not that one. 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.760 In the United States District Court Washington DC. 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.280 Chief Justice Edward C. Iiker. Besides, at the trial of 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:49.199 thirty elled seditionists. Here we go. That's the one that's right, 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.320 my friends. Back in nineteen forty four, the Nazis tried 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.800 to overthrow the US government with the help of some 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:00.160 US congressmen know less. I'm talking about the Great Sedition 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.640 Trial of nineteen forty four, which is the subject of 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:08.759 a history podcast hosted by Rachel Maddow called Ultra. Now. 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.640 Ultra and Snaffo have a lot in common. Both podcasts 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.120 are deep dives into important moments in American history which 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.720 are largely forgotten, and yet they feel oddly prescient to 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.440 our world today. So naturally I wanted to sit down 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.800 and talk with Ultra's creator. So today I'm coming into 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.959 your feed with a treat. My conversation with Rachel Maddow 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:36.520 about Ultra and Snaffo. We talk about these two extraordinary stories, 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:40.280 forgotten history in general, the roots of authoritarianism, and how 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.759 it all weaves into current events. Rachel is well known 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.360 for being a rigorous on air journalist, author, and podcaster. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:53.960 She's curious, a deep thinker, profoundly insightful, and pretty damn funny, 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.080 all of which makes her a hell of a lot 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.200 of fun to talk to. I really enjoyed this conversation. 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.720 I learned a lot, and I think you will too. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:08.440 So here it is my chat with Rachel Matdow. Hello. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.240 Hi, It's Rachel Meadow. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.320 Rachel Maddow. It's so cool to meet you. This is awesome. 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.120 Nice to meet you too. It's great. This is very exciting. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.239 Indeed, I agree, Thanks so much for jumping into our 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.160 SNAPU universe. So what's happening? Where are you? 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.519 I'm in rural dirt road, western Massachusetts road. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:32.040 I don't know that. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.880 It's kind of the ambient vibe where I have. We're 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.080 really out in the middle of nowhere. It's fantastic. 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.520 What are you hiding from, Rachel? What's going on? 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:44.760 Humans? 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:49.680 Yeah? Okay, that's fair. Are you in a bunker? 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.840 What's weird? Actually, and this is true. The cottage that 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.000 I'm in right now, this little house in which we 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.680 built this studio, audio studios and stuff so I can 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.600 do my TV show from here, has a legit nuclear 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.960 bomb shelter in the basement, like. 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:06.560 Because you built it or because it was already there. 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:07.359 No, it was there. 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.760 It was built by whoever had this house in the fifties. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.160 And it's got concrete like this and triple rebar. And 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:15.680 when we came in to like flatten out the floor 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.400 and make everything normal, the contractor was like, we have 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:19.519 to leave the basement. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.520 Can I tell you something. I'm not like a crazy 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.840 prepper kind of doomsday person, but like I would like 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:30.760 to have a bunker. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:33.440 It just seems like a nice option. 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.320 Yeah, all right, well this is fun. I would love 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:41.360 to go deeper into apocalypse preparation, but we have some 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.400 really fun stuff to talk about. First of all, your 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:52.320 podcast Ultra was the number one podcast on Apple for 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:54.800 what like five weeks, a bunch of weeks. 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.000 A bunch of weeks it was number one, and then 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:58.840 it was less than number one, and then it was 0:03:58.880 --> 0:03:59.839 back up to number one again. 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:02.280 So It was really a surprise and very exciting. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.440 Yeah, and very well deserved. I listened to it twice. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.360 I just had it was so fun. I listened to 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.000 it all the way through and then I was like, 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:12.400 I got to hear that again, but I don't have 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.560 as much time, so I listened to it at like 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:19.800 one point eight speed. And it's funny when you listen 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:24.200 to something sped up like that, everyone sounds unbelievably intelligent. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.920 I had the opposite problem, which is that my doctor, 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.799 who is you know, my doctor, like kind of my friend. 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:33.800 But my doctor. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.720 Texted me all concerned that there was something wrong with 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.520 me because he had listened to Ultra and he was like, 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.760 you really, I know you've had issues with depression and 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:43.760 stuff in the past, and you really turns out he 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:45.880 was listening to it on zero point seventy five. 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:47.360 Oh my god. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.240 He thought I was really down. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:53.800 That's amazing. 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.200 He thought he had special medical insights into what was 0:04:58.240 --> 0:04:59.840 going on with this podcast. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:05.359 That's amazing. Great Ultra. It is an extraordinary story. It 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.719 is extremely well told. It's incredibly engaging and really really fun. 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.240 And I would love to just for our SNAFU listeners 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.200 if you haven't heard, Ultra. Can you break it down, 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.239 just like, what's the basic story. 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.680 The basic story is, in the lead up to World 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:28.640 War Two, there was a really really big Nazi and 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.039 I mean that specifically. I don't mean like Nazis, I 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.000 mean we're the Nazis, big Nazi effort to try to 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.240 exploit what the Germans called kernels of disturbance in the 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.919 United States, and so they were trying to propagandize us 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:45.839 really heavily. They supported a bunch of American native fascist 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.080 movements that were way scarier than we remember them in history, 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.240 and they paid a bunch of members of Congress and 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.719 senators to be on their side for this effort. And 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.760 it all sort of culminated in the Great Sedition Trial 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:06.080 of nineteen forty four, when nearly thirty of the folks 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.760 who were involved with the Nazis in these various plots 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.000 got put on trial and they got off. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.680 There was a mistrial, and they were all let go. 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.640 It's so profound, this story, it is so intense, and 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.839 it's totally mind blowing. In your description just now, you 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.560 said the trial was the Great Sedition Trial of what 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:32.640 nineteen forty four forty four, that implies that this was 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:37.880 like a landmark event that we all know and understand. 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.520 What's so incredible about this story to me, among there's 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:43.880 lots of things incredible about it, but one of the 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:48.159 most incredible things is how forgotten it is. And it's 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.320 something that I think our podcasts share, which is the 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:56.880 sort of forgotten history stories that are that are insanely important. 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.280 And one of the historians in your podcast actually says 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.840 at one point, I'm a PhD in history, and most 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.920 of my colleagues who are PhDs in history have never 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.040 heard of this, and so then, of course the general 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:16.360 public has no idea, and I wonder why is it forgotten? 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.480 Well, it's you know, I was thinking about the parallels 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.080 with that and with Able Archer with what you cover 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:28.760 in SNAFFU, and I think there there is something that's 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.600 like important for us to reflect on as people who 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.320 tell stories and who are interested in history, which is 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:39.720 that sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.400 who won and who lost. 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.080 Right Like, of course, the good history is told the winners. 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.440 History is told by the winners, and sometimes what the 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.760 winners most want is for us to forget that the 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:55.520 thing happened and that's definitely. I feel like that's a 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.640 little bit of the story that you unfold in in Snaffu, 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.880 Like with the the doing its assessment of what happened 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:04.920 with Abel Archer and whether it was a close call, 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:06.520 They're like, no, no, no, it was fine. 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:07.360 It was no big deal. 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.000 And that's part of the history that you uncover and 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.640 that you tell in the story. But it's also important 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.040 that the CIA wants it to be minimized, wants it 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.040 not to be remembered as a significant thing. And a 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.640 sort of different version of that happens in my story 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.600 where the good news, ending to the extent that there 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.280 is one, is that all of the elected officials who 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.000 were part of this plot, who are the real bad 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:35.800 guys here, the public knew enough, they found out enough 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.480 about what those guys were up to that they voted 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:39.920 them all out of office, like one of them got 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:41.920 voted out of office. And so even though a lot 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.719 of them were household names, really influential members of the 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.320 House in the Senate at the time, once they got 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.480 turfed out by voters who were disgusted by their behavior, 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.120 they went from being big deals to being losers. 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.240 And the losers get forgotten, and. 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.680 So part of the history that we have to contend 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:03.120 with is how much are the players here minimized in history, 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.520 either because it's convenient for somebody or because the good 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.760 guys won, And how much does that affect whether this 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.640 story is easy to find or easy to be told. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.280 So I just I find that dynamic interesting because you 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.960 have to put yourself then in the story. In terms 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:20.839 of how hard it is for you to find these things. 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:23.880 Well, it's a little bit of a scary reality when 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:29.400 you think the forgotten stories of history are very often 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.440 some of the most important because the reason that they're 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.120 forgotten is that they were either painful or embarrassing or 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.400 extremely problematic. And yet those are the things that we 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.160 do have the potential to learn the most from. 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.560 And the other circumstances in which that happens is because 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.120 it was a really scary thing and some Americans or 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.320 some characters in the story rose up and did the 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.080 right thing and neutralized the danger right here, right. Yeah, 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.720 But that's also those heroes. We also need to learn 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.600 that story. So it's it can't it can be like 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:04.960 a deliberate shunt this away. Let's not think about it, 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.800 But it can also be a like who close call, 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:08.840 let's forget about it? 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.280 Yeah you know, yeah, okay, so how the hell did 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.680 you find it? Like with SNAFU, we just we knew 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.920 we wanted to do a podcast, and we wanted to 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:24.000 do something kind of history and irreverent, and we set 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:28.000 about looking for the thing. Did you know you wanted 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.720 to do a podcast and look for something exciting and 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.480 meaningful or did you just dig up this story or 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.920 stumble on it and then say this has to be told? 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.959 So I was I sort of feel like the all 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.720 the best stories that I've ever been involved in telling 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:49.160 come out of ignorance, like, come out of legitimate curiosity, 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.720 like I don't understand where this came from, or this 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.600 thing that everybody thinks makes sense to them doesn't make 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.480 sense to me. And I was going through that sort 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.840 of train of thought just as part of my news 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.800 you know, my day job at MSNBC, thinking about Holocaust denial. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.480 So we're having this big upsurge in anti Semitism and 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:11.360 kind of anti semitism wedded to political power, which is 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.840 a very dangerous thing. And at the core of all 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.680 of it is this sort of burbling thing where people 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.520 say the Holocaust didn't happen. And I've always felt like 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:26.360 it's not obvious to me how that can exist. Intellectually, sure, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.240 like it's one thing to be prejudiced, it's another thing 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.160 to say this obvious thing and history of which we 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:33.559 have all this proof, I choose to. 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:34.880 Contend that it didn't happen. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.000 And so I was interested in where that came from, 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:41.920 and particularly where it came from in the first instance, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.640 like how early on did people start denying it? 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:45.280 And what I. 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.000 Found, to my surprise, is that Holocaust denile really came 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.360 from the United States. It didn't come from Germany, and 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.680 it happened really early on. It happened in the forties. 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:55.520 Wow, which is. 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:01.120 Nuts, because there's all these American Gish and refugees from Europe, 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.959 including refugees from Germany coming here, who are eyewitnesses, who 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.360 are survivors who had family members killed or who were 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.840 liberating the concentration camps. I mean, so all this irrefutable evidence, 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.520 and yet this thing emerges in the late forties in 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.640 the United States and then starts pinging around the world. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.080 Where we're going to say that didn't happen? So interested 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.480 in where the hell did that come from and why 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.679 and who were the characters who dreven this up knowing 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.640 that it was false but concocting it for a political reason. 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.160 And in trying to figure that out, which is a 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.320 story I'm still going to tell, but I haven't gotten 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.839 there yet, I realized that actually those folks came out 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.199 of this milia during World War two in the United 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.680 States that we've forgotten about, and they all went on 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.560 trial and oh my god, the judge died in the 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.520 middle of the trial and they were all set free, 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.880 and then what happened to them is so it ended 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.560 up being kind of the prequel to the story that 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.880 I wanted to tell, but I realized there was enough 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.319 there that I should probably tell it. 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.319 That's that is fascinating. I feel like that's of how 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.240 some of the best stories do come about. 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.599 Can I ask you a Snafu question about that, Liz? Yeah, 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.160 I thought the thing that I most admired about the 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.679 storytelling in Snaffhu was your sort of fearlessness about casting 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.480 doubt on the story. So obviously there's I mean, for 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.679 everybody's listened to it, like, there's lots of twists and 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.640 lots of you know, backing up and reconsidering stuff that's 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.200 earlier been presented. And I wondered, when you constructed the 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.080 story and when you decided to do it, did you 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:35.960 know about the doubt and uncertainty and sort of woliness 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.200 of the bottom line of that story when you started, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.800 or did you think it was a more certain story 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.680 when you started and you only got to that you know, 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.840 more mature, complex bottom line once you were into it 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:49.000 in the middle of the research. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.840 Yeah, it was the latter. Like everything you read about 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.840 Able Archer in the sort of to the extent that 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.560 it's in the zeitgeist, just little blips and blurbs. It 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:04.040 sounds like a very cut and dry thing, but like anything, 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.160 the more you dig, the more nuanced it becomes. And 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:12.680 then it became for us as storytellers just feeling a 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:19.320 kind of responsibility to reflect that nuance and the complexity. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.800 You know, even some even historians, have some different perspectives 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.920 on it that are very meaningful. I don't know. We 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.320 really wanted to lean into the integrity of it, and 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.480 that made it a little bit messier of a story, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.280 but ultimately the messiness kind of gave rise to some 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.840 really exciting questions and kind of pontifications, and that's really 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.600 where we wound up, kind of putting the focus in 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:44.800 that last episode. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.560 Well, it makes it more profound and more real. It 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.240 also makes it more of a contribution to the history 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.800 of it. Right to have all the interviews that you 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.960 do and to have an honest reflection of the real 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.080 you know, the legitimate contention with the various facts and 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.560 the various perspectives on it. It's a it's a real 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.680 work of history with all the jokes included. But also 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.200 it does get you to a more profound place in 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:17.440 terms of getting I think, encouraging critical thinking about seemingly cut. 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.119 And dry episodes. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.840 I just thought that was really, like I said, mature 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:24.200 and complex and cool. 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:26.000 Go on. 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.520 Also, you guys, you're just so handsome, and it was. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:37.160 No, that's I'm literally like getting chills. That means so 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.200 much to hear from you, Rachel. I really really appreciate that. 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.520 And yeah, we really put a ton of work into it, 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.240 and so that means a lot. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:51.640 I think you had it harder than I did, because 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.760 in my case, the Great Sedition Trial of nineteen forty 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.720 four is forgotten. The only histories of it have been 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.640 written by people who simple thized with the fascist defendants, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.440 and so all the histories of it have all been 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.400 about how they were railroaded, and it was terrible that 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.960 these people were put on trial, and how ridiculous this 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.280 contention that the Nazis were working with any Americans? Do 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.400 you believe how prejudiced the Department of Justice is against 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.400 good American conservatives? And so all the history, all the 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:25.080 history of it was really biased and all in the 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.560 same direction. And nobody had ever revisited that history looking 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.440 at it from a more balanced perspective, And so I 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.400 didn't have to I didn't have to contend with sort 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:40.840 of you know, great nuanced, honest broker perspectives on both sides. 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.960 There was just a bunch of clap trap about it. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.440 And nobody had ever done a broader, less I think, 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.160 in my from my perspective, less biased look at the evidence. 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.480 Wasn't I thought Roggy wrote a book. But were you 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.880 able to dig that up? Is that is that findable? 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:58.080 Ish? 0:16:58.320 --> 0:16:58.560 Yeah? 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.360 I mean, if you want to get a copy of it, 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.120 I can maybe give you a deal. I think I 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.920 own all the copies of it. It never had like 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.400 a second printing. It never went anywhere. 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.840 So sorry to tell us who Roggy is, because I 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:11.320 just brought him up out of the blue. 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.760 So Roggy is O John Roggy, who is a German American. 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.280 Interestingly enough, he grows up in the United States, son 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.840 of German immigrants, speaking German at home, and he's this 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:27.359 wonderkin's lawyer and prosecutor and Justice Department official, and he 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.920 ends up being the crusading prosecutor who tries to bring 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.120 the sedition trial home, who tries to finish it, who 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.800 fights against the mistrial. And the great twist in my 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:43.600 story in Ultra is when as the trial's falling apart, 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.960 Raggy gets leave to go to Germany and he gets 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:53.800 to try to prove his contention that these weren't just 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:58.080 conservative Americans who had their own anti Semitic fascist ideas 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.080 that were actually working with the Nazi government. They're being 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.439 paid by the Germans in many instances. He gets to 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.679 prove that from the German side, and he interviews all 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.919 these Nazi prisoners and they in fact give him all 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:11.959 the dirt on all the Americans they were working with, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.280 and so he's able to prove the collusion, if you will, 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.120 from the other side, and by the time he brings 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.480 those findings home to the United States, we have won 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.240 the war. Everybody wants to move on. Roggy has become 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.800 a political figure in a way that he is very 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.760 much demonized by one side and then ultimately by the 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.520 other side, and nobody really wants to hear it. And 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.119 so he does create this really valuable historical record. But 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.520 by the time it lands he finally gets it published, 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.199 he has to fight with the Justice Tournament to get 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.479 it declassified and all this stuff. By the time it 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.159 finally lands in the public record, it's nineteen sixty one, 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.640 and this is ancient history, and nobody buys the book, 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:59.240 and nobody reviews it, and nobody stocks it in their archives, 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:04.040 and it just disappears until you know, all these decades later, 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.040 that story ends up being of interest to me because 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.720 of its resonance with our current situation and it's and 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.280 thank god he did it, because the records there, even 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.199 though nobody cared about it in his lifetime and he 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:17.119 died in obscurity. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:22.479 It just raises so many fascinating questions and issues. Okay, 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:27.000 so anti semitism or racism in all its forms, these 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:32.920 are things that most people agree are bad, right, bad 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:38.040 and gone. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. They also seem embedded 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.680 in most modern emergencies of fascism. 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:43.360 Yeah. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.800 I know, throughout history, totalitarianism pops up in many different 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:53.520 forms all over the political spectrum, but fascism, and I 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.600 ask this not as any kind of indictment of conservatism, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.560 but fascism in particular, seems to bubble up from the right. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:03.000 Why do you think that is. 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.720 Well, I mean, I do think that there's you know, 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.320 there's different types of authoritarianism, right, and there's definitely you know, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:16.439 left wing authoritarianism as well, and the when you're talking 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:22.840 about you know, tyrannical forms of government, right wing authoritarianism, which. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.360 In some instances is fascism. 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:28.119 Not always, but sometimes this is fascism ends up having 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:32.520 a recurrent appeal in our country and in other Western democracies. 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.439 I think because people don't like democracy. I mean, the 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.360 basic idea of democracy is that everybody gets a say. 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.720 And if you think that you and people like you 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.560 should get a say but other people shouldn't, that's a 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.840 that's an instinct that people have. And there can be 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.400 left wing authoritarianism, which is a different drive and comes 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.040 from a different place and leads to murder, leads to 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.720 mass murder in general as well. 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:01.280 Just as much mayhem. 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.320 But on the right, the way it works is me 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.800 and my people were the only people who should count 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.720 as citizens. The other people who are technically you're telling 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.119 me how to be part of this democracy are lesser 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.560 than or evil or their interlopers, and we not only 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.679 need to exclude them from the decision making process, but 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:20.199 we need to blame them for all the things that 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.440 are going wrong here, and we need to exclude them 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.280 from the decision making process and punish them for all 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:27.320 the terrible things they've done. 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.600 Because if it was just us in charge, everything would 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:30.160 be fine. 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:35.800 And that's the basic idea, and that's why authoritarianism on 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.040 the right almost always. 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.480 Comes with antisemitism. 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:41.760 It's either going to be anti semitism or it's going 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.960 to be some other thing that looks like anti semitism 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.920 that is directed towards some other minority, because you need 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.560 some out group to define as the source of all 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.800 the problems, because you, the in group, are perfect, and 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.960 if you were just given full control, everything would be fine. 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:01.400 And it's just it's dumb, and it's simple and it's 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.160 recurrent and. 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:08.239 Well, humans, we're dumb. Us are dumb, we do dumb things. 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.320 And we don't remember what the old dumb things were. 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:13.239 So the new dumb things come around and we're like, 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.400 whoa wait, you're telling me it's the Jews. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.880