1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: Welcome back, SNAFU listeners. We're back to discuss a dicey subject, 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: a far right coup, an attempt to overthrow the democratically 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: elected government of the United States of America. Because you'll 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: never dee our country with weakness. You have to show 5 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: strength when you have to be strowing. 6 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: We all know. 7 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: Nope, not that one. 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 3: In the United States District Court Washington DC. 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Chief Justice Edward C. Iiker. Besides, at the trial of 10 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: thirty elled seditionists. Here we go. That's the one that's right, 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: my friends. Back in nineteen forty four, the Nazis tried 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: to overthrow the US government with the help of some 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: US congressmen know less. I'm talking about the Great Sedition 14 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: Trial of nineteen forty four, which is the subject of 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: a history podcast hosted by Rachel Maddow called Ultra. Now. 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: Ultra and Snaffo have a lot in common. Both podcasts 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: are deep dives into important moments in American history which 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: are largely forgotten, and yet they feel oddly prescient to 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: our world today. So naturally I wanted to sit down 20 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: and talk with Ultra's creator. So today I'm coming into 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: your feed with a treat. My conversation with Rachel Maddow 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: about Ultra and Snaffo. We talk about these two extraordinary stories, 23 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: forgotten history in general, the roots of authoritarianism, and how 24 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: it all weaves into current events. Rachel is well known 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: for being a rigorous on air journalist, author, and podcaster. 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: She's curious, a deep thinker, profoundly insightful, and pretty damn funny, 27 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: all of which makes her a hell of a lot 28 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: of fun to talk to. I really enjoyed this conversation. 29 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: I learned a lot, and I think you will too. 30 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: So here it is my chat with Rachel Matdow. Hello. 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: Hi, It's Rachel Meadow. 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: Rachel Maddow. It's so cool to meet you. This is awesome. 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 3: Nice to meet you too. It's great. This is very exciting. 34 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: Indeed, I agree, Thanks so much for jumping into our 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: SNAPU universe. So what's happening? Where are you? 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 2: I'm in rural dirt road, western Massachusetts road. 37 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that. 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: It's kind of the ambient vibe where I have. We're 39 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: really out in the middle of nowhere. It's fantastic. 40 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: What are you hiding from, Rachel? What's going on? 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 3: Humans? 42 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, that's fair. Are you in a bunker? 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: What's weird? Actually, and this is true. The cottage that 44 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: I'm in right now, this little house in which we 45 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: built this studio, audio studios and stuff so I can 46 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: do my TV show from here, has a legit nuclear 47 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: bomb shelter in the basement, like. 48 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: Because you built it or because it was already there. 49 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 3: No, it was there. 50 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: It was built by whoever had this house in the fifties. 51 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: And it's got concrete like this and triple rebar. And 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 2: when we came in to like flatten out the floor 53 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: and make everything normal, the contractor was like, we have 54 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 2: to leave the basement. 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: Can I tell you something. I'm not like a crazy 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: prepper kind of doomsday person, but like I would like 57 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: to have a bunker. 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: It just seems like a nice option. 59 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well this is fun. I would love 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: to go deeper into apocalypse preparation, but we have some 61 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: really fun stuff to talk about. First of all, your 62 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: podcast Ultra was the number one podcast on Apple for 63 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: what like five weeks, a bunch of weeks. 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: A bunch of weeks it was number one, and then 65 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: it was less than number one, and then it was 66 00:03:58,880 --> 00:03:59,839 Speaker 2: back up to number one again. 67 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: So It was really a surprise and very exciting. 68 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and very well deserved. I listened to it twice. 69 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: I just had it was so fun. I listened to 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: it all the way through and then I was like, 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: I got to hear that again, but I don't have 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: as much time, so I listened to it at like 73 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: one point eight speed. And it's funny when you listen 74 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: to something sped up like that, everyone sounds unbelievably intelligent. 75 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: I had the opposite problem, which is that my doctor, 76 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 2: who is you know, my doctor, like kind of my friend. 77 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: But my doctor. 78 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: Texted me all concerned that there was something wrong with 79 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: me because he had listened to Ultra and he was like, 80 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: you really, I know you've had issues with depression and 81 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: stuff in the past, and you really turns out he 82 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: was listening to it on zero point seventy five. 83 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 84 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: He thought I was really down. 85 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: That's amazing. 86 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: He thought he had special medical insights into what was 87 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 2: going on with this podcast. 88 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Great Ultra. It is an extraordinary story. It 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: is extremely well told. It's incredibly engaging and really really fun. 90 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: And I would love to just for our SNAFU listeners 91 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: if you haven't heard, Ultra. Can you break it down, 92 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 1: just like, what's the basic story. 93 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: The basic story is, in the lead up to World 94 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: War Two, there was a really really big Nazi and 95 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: I mean that specifically. I don't mean like Nazis, I 96 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: mean we're the Nazis, big Nazi effort to try to 97 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: exploit what the Germans called kernels of disturbance in the 98 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: United States, and so they were trying to propagandize us 99 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: really heavily. They supported a bunch of American native fascist 100 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: movements that were way scarier than we remember them in history, 101 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: and they paid a bunch of members of Congress and 102 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: senators to be on their side for this effort. And 103 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: it all sort of culminated in the Great Sedition Trial 104 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: of nineteen forty four, when nearly thirty of the folks 105 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: who were involved with the Nazis in these various plots 106 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: got put on trial and they got off. 107 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: There was a mistrial, and they were all let go. 108 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: It's so profound, this story, it is so intense, and 109 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: it's totally mind blowing. In your description just now, you 110 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: said the trial was the Great Sedition Trial of what 111 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: nineteen forty four forty four, that implies that this was 112 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: like a landmark event that we all know and understand. 113 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: What's so incredible about this story to me, among there's 114 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: lots of things incredible about it, but one of the 115 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: most incredible things is how forgotten it is. And it's 116 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: something that I think our podcasts share, which is the 117 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: sort of forgotten history stories that are that are insanely important. 118 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: And one of the historians in your podcast actually says 119 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: at one point, I'm a PhD in history, and most 120 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: of my colleagues who are PhDs in history have never 121 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: heard of this, and so then, of course the general 122 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: public has no idea, and I wonder why is it forgotten? 123 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: Well, it's you know, I was thinking about the parallels 124 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: with that and with Able Archer with what you cover 125 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: in SNAFFU, and I think there there is something that's 126 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: like important for us to reflect on as people who 127 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: tell stories and who are interested in history, which is 128 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: that sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of 129 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: who won and who lost. 130 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: Right Like, of course, the good history is told the winners. 131 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: History is told by the winners, and sometimes what the 132 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: winners most want is for us to forget that the 133 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: thing happened and that's definitely. I feel like that's a 134 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: little bit of the story that you unfold in in Snaffu, 135 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: Like with the the doing its assessment of what happened 136 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: with Abel Archer and whether it was a close call, 137 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: They're like, no, no, no, it was fine. 138 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: It was no big deal. 139 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: And that's part of the history that you uncover and 140 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: that you tell in the story. But it's also important 141 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: that the CIA wants it to be minimized, wants it 142 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: not to be remembered as a significant thing. And a 143 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: sort of different version of that happens in my story 144 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: where the good news, ending to the extent that there 145 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: is one, is that all of the elected officials who 146 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: were part of this plot, who are the real bad 147 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: guys here, the public knew enough, they found out enough 148 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: about what those guys were up to that they voted 149 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: them all out of office, like one of them got 150 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: voted out of office. And so even though a lot 151 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 2: of them were household names, really influential members of the 152 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: House in the Senate at the time, once they got 153 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: turfed out by voters who were disgusted by their behavior, 154 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: they went from being big deals to being losers. 155 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: And the losers get forgotten, and. 156 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: So part of the history that we have to contend 157 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: with is how much are the players here minimized in history, 158 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: either because it's convenient for somebody or because the good 159 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: guys won, And how much does that affect whether this 160 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: story is easy to find or easy to be told. 161 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: So I just I find that dynamic interesting because you 162 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: have to put yourself then in the story. In terms 163 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 2: of how hard it is for you to find these things. 164 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: Well, it's a little bit of a scary reality when 165 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: you think the forgotten stories of history are very often 166 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: some of the most important because the reason that they're 167 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: forgotten is that they were either painful or embarrassing or 168 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: extremely problematic. And yet those are the things that we 169 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: do have the potential to learn the most from. 170 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: And the other circumstances in which that happens is because 171 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: it was a really scary thing and some Americans or 172 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: some characters in the story rose up and did the 173 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: right thing and neutralized the danger right here, right. Yeah, 174 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: But that's also those heroes. We also need to learn 175 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: that story. So it's it can't it can be like 176 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: a deliberate shunt this away. Let's not think about it, 177 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: But it can also be a like who close call, 178 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: let's forget about it? 179 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: Yeah you know, yeah, okay, so how the hell did 180 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: you find it? Like with SNAFU, we just we knew 181 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: we wanted to do a podcast, and we wanted to 182 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: do something kind of history and irreverent, and we set 183 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: about looking for the thing. Did you know you wanted 184 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: to do a podcast and look for something exciting and 185 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: meaningful or did you just dig up this story or 186 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: stumble on it and then say this has to be told? 187 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 2: So I was I sort of feel like the all 188 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: the best stories that I've ever been involved in telling 189 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: come out of ignorance, like, come out of legitimate curiosity, 190 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: like I don't understand where this came from, or this 191 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: thing that everybody thinks makes sense to them doesn't make 192 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: sense to me. And I was going through that sort 193 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: of train of thought just as part of my news 194 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: you know, my day job at MSNBC, thinking about Holocaust denial. 195 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: So we're having this big upsurge in anti Semitism and 196 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: kind of anti semitism wedded to political power, which is 197 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 2: a very dangerous thing. And at the core of all 198 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 2: of it is this sort of burbling thing where people 199 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: say the Holocaust didn't happen. And I've always felt like 200 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: it's not obvious to me how that can exist. Intellectually, sure, 201 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: like it's one thing to be prejudiced, it's another thing 202 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: to say this obvious thing and history of which we 203 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: have all this proof, I choose to. 204 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: Contend that it didn't happen. 205 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: And so I was interested in where that came from, 206 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: and particularly where it came from in the first instance, 207 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: like how early on did people start denying it? 208 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 3: And what I. 209 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: Found, to my surprise, is that Holocaust denile really came 210 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: from the United States. It didn't come from Germany, and 211 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: it happened really early on. It happened in the forties. 212 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: Wow, which is. 213 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: Nuts, because there's all these American Gish and refugees from Europe, 214 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 2: including refugees from Germany coming here, who are eyewitnesses, who 215 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: are survivors who had family members killed or who were 216 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: liberating the concentration camps. I mean, so all this irrefutable evidence, 217 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: and yet this thing emerges in the late forties in 218 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: the United States and then starts pinging around the world. 219 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: Where we're going to say that didn't happen? So interested 220 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: in where the hell did that come from and why 221 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: and who were the characters who dreven this up knowing 222 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: that it was false but concocting it for a political reason. 223 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: And in trying to figure that out, which is a 224 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: story I'm still going to tell, but I haven't gotten 225 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: there yet, I realized that actually those folks came out 226 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: of this milia during World War two in the United 227 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 2: States that we've forgotten about, and they all went on 228 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: trial and oh my god, the judge died in the 229 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: middle of the trial and they were all set free, 230 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: and then what happened to them is so it ended 231 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: up being kind of the prequel to the story that 232 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 2: I wanted to tell, but I realized there was enough 233 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 2: there that I should probably tell it. 234 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: That's that is fascinating. I feel like that's of how 235 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: some of the best stories do come about. 236 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,599 Speaker 2: Can I ask you a Snafu question about that, Liz? Yeah, 237 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: I thought the thing that I most admired about the 238 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: storytelling in Snaffhu was your sort of fearlessness about casting 239 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: doubt on the story. So obviously there's I mean, for 240 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: everybody's listened to it, like, there's lots of twists and 241 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: lots of you know, backing up and reconsidering stuff that's 242 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: earlier been presented. And I wondered, when you constructed the 243 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: story and when you decided to do it, did you 244 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: know about the doubt and uncertainty and sort of woliness 245 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: of the bottom line of that story when you started, 246 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: or did you think it was a more certain story 247 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: when you started and you only got to that you know, 248 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 2: more mature, complex bottom line once you were into it 249 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: in the middle of the research. 250 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the latter. Like everything you read about 251 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: Able Archer in the sort of to the extent that 252 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: it's in the zeitgeist, just little blips and blurbs. It 253 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: sounds like a very cut and dry thing, but like anything, 254 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: the more you dig, the more nuanced it becomes. And 255 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: then it became for us as storytellers just feeling a 256 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: kind of responsibility to reflect that nuance and the complexity. 257 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: You know, even some even historians, have some different perspectives 258 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: on it that are very meaningful. I don't know. We 259 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: really wanted to lean into the integrity of it, and 260 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: that made it a little bit messier of a story, 261 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: but ultimately the messiness kind of gave rise to some 262 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: really exciting questions and kind of pontifications, and that's really 263 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: where we wound up, kind of putting the focus in 264 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: that last episode. 265 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: Well, it makes it more profound and more real. It 266 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: also makes it more of a contribution to the history 267 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: of it. Right to have all the interviews that you 268 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: do and to have an honest reflection of the real 269 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: you know, the legitimate contention with the various facts and 270 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: the various perspectives on it. It's a it's a real 271 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: work of history with all the jokes included. But also 272 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: it does get you to a more profound place in 273 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: terms of getting I think, encouraging critical thinking about seemingly cut. 274 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,119 Speaker 3: And dry episodes. 275 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: I just thought that was really, like I said, mature 276 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: and complex and cool. 277 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: Go on. 278 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 3: Also, you guys, you're just so handsome, and it was. 279 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: No, that's I'm literally like getting chills. That means so 280 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: much to hear from you, Rachel. I really really appreciate that. 281 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: And yeah, we really put a ton of work into it, 282 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: and so that means a lot. 283 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: I think you had it harder than I did, because 284 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: in my case, the Great Sedition Trial of nineteen forty 285 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: four is forgotten. The only histories of it have been 286 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: written by people who simple thized with the fascist defendants, 287 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: and so all the histories of it have all been 288 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: about how they were railroaded, and it was terrible that 289 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: these people were put on trial, and how ridiculous this 290 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: contention that the Nazis were working with any Americans? Do 291 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: you believe how prejudiced the Department of Justice is against 292 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: good American conservatives? And so all the history, all the 293 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: history of it was really biased and all in the 294 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: same direction. And nobody had ever revisited that history looking 295 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: at it from a more balanced perspective, And so I 296 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: didn't have to I didn't have to contend with sort 297 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: of you know, great nuanced, honest broker perspectives on both sides. 298 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: There was just a bunch of clap trap about it. 299 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: And nobody had ever done a broader, less I think, 300 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: in my from my perspective, less biased look at the evidence. 301 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: Wasn't I thought Roggy wrote a book. But were you 302 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: able to dig that up? Is that is that findable? 303 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: Ish? 304 00:16:58,320 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 305 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to get a copy of it, 306 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: I can maybe give you a deal. I think I 307 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: own all the copies of it. It never had like 308 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: a second printing. It never went anywhere. 309 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: So sorry to tell us who Roggy is, because I 310 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: just brought him up out of the blue. 311 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: So Roggy is O John Roggy, who is a German American. 312 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, he grows up in the United States, son 313 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: of German immigrants, speaking German at home, and he's this 314 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: wonderkin's lawyer and prosecutor and Justice Department official, and he 315 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: ends up being the crusading prosecutor who tries to bring 316 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 2: the sedition trial home, who tries to finish it, who 317 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: fights against the mistrial. And the great twist in my 318 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: story in Ultra is when as the trial's falling apart, 319 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: Raggy gets leave to go to Germany and he gets 320 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: to try to prove his contention that these weren't just 321 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: conservative Americans who had their own anti Semitic fascist ideas 322 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: that were actually working with the Nazi government. They're being 323 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 2: paid by the Germans in many instances. He gets to 324 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 2: prove that from the German side, and he interviews all 325 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 2: these Nazi prisoners and they in fact give him all 326 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 2: the dirt on all the Americans they were working with, 327 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: and so he's able to prove the collusion, if you will, 328 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: from the other side, and by the time he brings 329 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: those findings home to the United States, we have won 330 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: the war. Everybody wants to move on. Roggy has become 331 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: a political figure in a way that he is very 332 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: much demonized by one side and then ultimately by the 333 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 2: other side, and nobody really wants to hear it. And 334 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: so he does create this really valuable historical record. But 335 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: by the time it lands he finally gets it published, 336 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 2: he has to fight with the Justice Tournament to get 337 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 2: it declassified and all this stuff. By the time it 338 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 2: finally lands in the public record, it's nineteen sixty one, 339 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: and this is ancient history, and nobody buys the book, 340 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: and nobody reviews it, and nobody stocks it in their archives, 341 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: and it just disappears until you know, all these decades later, 342 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: that story ends up being of interest to me because 343 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: of its resonance with our current situation and it's and 344 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: thank god he did it, because the records there, even 345 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: though nobody cared about it in his lifetime and he 346 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: died in obscurity. 347 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 1: It just raises so many fascinating questions and issues. Okay, 348 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: so anti semitism or racism in all its forms, these 349 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: are things that most people agree are bad, right, bad 350 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: and gone. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. They also seem embedded 351 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: in most modern emergencies of fascism. 352 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 353 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: I know, throughout history, totalitarianism pops up in many different 354 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: forms all over the political spectrum, but fascism, and I 355 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: ask this not as any kind of indictment of conservatism, 356 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: but fascism in particular, seems to bubble up from the right. 357 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is. 358 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I do think that there's you know, 359 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: there's different types of authoritarianism, right, and there's definitely you know, 360 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 2: left wing authoritarianism as well, and the when you're talking 361 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: about you know, tyrannical forms of government, right wing authoritarianism, which. 362 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 3: In some instances is fascism. 363 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: Not always, but sometimes this is fascism ends up having 364 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: a recurrent appeal in our country and in other Western democracies. 365 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 2: I think because people don't like democracy. I mean, the 366 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 2: basic idea of democracy is that everybody gets a say. 367 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: And if you think that you and people like you 368 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: should get a say but other people shouldn't, that's a 369 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 2: that's an instinct that people have. And there can be 370 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 2: left wing authoritarianism, which is a different drive and comes 371 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: from a different place and leads to murder, leads to 372 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: mass murder in general as well. 373 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: Just as much mayhem. 374 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: But on the right, the way it works is me 375 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: and my people were the only people who should count 376 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: as citizens. The other people who are technically you're telling 377 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: me how to be part of this democracy are lesser 378 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: than or evil or their interlopers, and we not only 379 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 2: need to exclude them from the decision making process, but 380 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 2: we need to blame them for all the things that 381 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 2: are going wrong here, and we need to exclude them 382 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: from the decision making process and punish them for all 383 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: the terrible things they've done. 384 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 3: Because if it was just us in charge, everything would 385 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 3: be fine. 386 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: And that's the basic idea, and that's why authoritarianism on 387 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: the right almost always. 388 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: Comes with antisemitism. 389 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: It's either going to be anti semitism or it's going 390 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: to be some other thing that looks like anti semitism 391 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 2: that is directed towards some other minority, because you need 392 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: some out group to define as the source of all 393 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: the problems, because you, the in group, are perfect, and 394 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: if you were just given full control, everything would be fine. 395 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 2: And it's just it's dumb, and it's simple and it's 396 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 2: recurrent and. 397 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,239 Speaker 1: Well, humans, we're dumb. Us are dumb, we do dumb things. 398 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: And we don't remember what the old dumb things were. 399 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 2: So the new dumb things come around and we're like, 400 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: whoa wait, you're telling me it's the Jews. 401 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: You know. Shocker, there's that great Hegel quote. The only 402 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: thing we've learned from history is that we learn nothing 403 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: from history. And I wonder if you have any thoughts 404 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: on how we can do better. It feels like in 405 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: with modern technology, we should be able to be better 406 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: at learning from from history, but maybe we're just not 407 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: wired for it in our DNA. 408 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: I think that you know, fart jokes helps, like you know, 409 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: like when you know you did that whole riff on, 410 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: like the Valentines, Like I have so many treasons that 411 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: I love you, like Valentine's for Spies huh, and the 412 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: well fake game show that you inserted into, like like 413 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: the it's storytelling skill and up being the entertainment quotient 414 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: in direct ratio with the complexity of the story that 415 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: you're telling. That helps, Like, I don't know that that's 416 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: technological innovation, but it's it's an evolution of our sort 417 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: of ambition to make these stories understandable, memorable, repeatable, you know, 418 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: both on TV and in this kind of podcast and 419 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 2: book world that I'm into. I try to tell stories 420 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: in such a way that they stick. And so even 421 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: if you can't persuade somebody else to listen to Ultra, 422 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: or you can't persuade somebody else to read my book 423 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: about Spiro Agnew, if you listen to the podcast or 424 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 2: if you read that book, you will have absorbed the 425 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: story well in us that you can give somebody the 426 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: gist of it and pass on. And that's what you're 427 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: doing in SNAFU. That's the whole idea of doing real 428 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: history that's rigorous and honest and intellectually engaged with the 429 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 2: ambiguities and all those things. But it's also fun and 430 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: is also not homework. It's just it's something that's a pleasure. 431 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: And I think that's you know, if you've got those skills, 432 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 2: that's a that's a mitzvah, that's a service to humanity 433 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: into our country to use them that way. 434 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to give give people some some candy 435 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: with the vegetables, right, you gotta. 436 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: Do you got to do your Nancy astrologer stuff. It 437 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 2: turns out to be important. 438 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: It is. It's crazy how important astrology was in the 439 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: Reagan administration. It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. 440 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: Growing up in the eighties in San Francisco, I have 441 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: to tell you the fact that Nancy's astrologer was in 442 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 2: San Francisco, I remember being like kind of proud. 443 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that's funny. 444 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: This idea, like the rasputant pulling the strings in the 445 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: Reagan white House might be this lady in knob Hill. 446 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 3: It's actually like a source of regional pride for me. 447 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: Oh that's great. I think the thing that I feel 448 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: like is missing is And maybe this is a maybe, Rachel, 449 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: maybe this is a book pitch for us. Maybe we 450 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 1: do a book together, and it's basically like the lessons 451 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: of history. These are the lessons, and then here are 452 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: the events that teach us those lessons. So you can 453 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 1: no longer say like, well, I don't know how to 454 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: interpret that, or I don't know what to learn from that, 455 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: Like we need a compendium of the lessons. 456 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: Lesson seventeen, Stop blaming the juice. 457 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, here's what that's one, right, Here's why this 458 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: is a book. We need to write have a phone. 459 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: That connects between Washington and Moscow. 460 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: That you have that phone, Yeah, and you and use 461 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: it occasionally. 462 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 3: But I think that. 463 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that there really is a lot 464 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: of interest in documentary and history stuff. That's a surprise 465 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 2: to me, Like seeing like how popular documentaries are on Netflix. 466 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: When Netflix offers you in with literally equal effort, like 467 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 2: clicking on one side of the screen versus the other, 468 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: you can watch anything. So many people opt for documentaries. 469 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: There there's something there isn't There's a rational and constructive 470 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: human hunger to learn stuff. And that's that to me 471 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: is very heartening. You know, I feel like that's room 472 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: to run. 473 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: I agree. I agree with that, and I actually I 474 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: think the success of your podcast to me was very 475 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: reassuring just the you know, I think the lessons baked 476 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: into your podcast are so important and meaningful and prescient, 477 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: and I loved I was just so thrilled that that 478 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: so many people were we're getting. 479 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 3: Thank you. 480 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: Both of these stories able archer or or Snaffo, i 481 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: should say, and ultra our podcasts. And you have an 482 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: incredible career as a broadcaster, legendary broadcaster for many many years. 483 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: How how is this kind of segue back into audio gone, 484 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: And how did it affect how you consider telling this story. 485 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: It's a good question because definitely sort of falling in 486 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 2: love with the story and doing the research and realizing 487 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: like kind of where it was going and what the 488 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 2: bottom line of it was going to be and everything, 489 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 2: it was definitely an open question as to how to 490 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 2: produce it, like make I could. I know that I 491 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: could write a book about it, because I'm almost done 492 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: with the book about it now, or I could try 493 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: to produce it for TV, or try to make it 494 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: into a movie or do some other thing. And ultimately 495 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: I decided to do it as a podcast because I'm 496 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: kind of just in love with audio. I think that 497 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 2: my background in radio was I don't know if that 498 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: if it stamped a love for audio on me, or 499 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 2: if I was just wired that way anyway. But when 500 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 2: I even when I when I do TV shows and 501 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 2: stuff like, I don't really think about what stuff looks like. 502 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: I think of the visual presentation of whatever's going on. 503 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: It's just kind of decoration for the words. And when 504 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: you do audio, there's this I don't know, level of. 505 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 3: I don't want to say, like. 506 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: I don't want to be too sappy about it, but 507 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: there's a sort of level of intensity, like you're kind 508 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: of speaking into somebody's ear rather than sitting in front 509 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: of them talking, and it's it's it's can be intense, 510 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: and it's also unforgiving. I think you have to be 511 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: more precise in an audio environment and than you do 512 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 2: when you have the help of visuals to distract people. 513 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: So I find it to be more challenging and more rewarding. 514 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: It's also kind of more more the way that I 515 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 2: like to absorb information. I don't like to watch stuff 516 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: as much as I like to listen to it. 517 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: That's interesting, I'm I feel similarly, I found myself just 518 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: devouring podcasts and audio books in a way that I 519 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: never really consumed television. I mean I watched TV, of course, 520 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: but I never I was never like a, you know, 521 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: addicted to shows or anything. And I but then podcasts 522 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: would just suck me in and I realized, like, this 523 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: is this incredibly powerful vehicle, and and the way that 524 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: we work with a microphone it's incredibly intimate, and I 525 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: love that. 526 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: I think it's like, oh god, I'm pregnant, I'm very powerful. 527 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: My voice is very powerful. No, But I feel when 528 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: I watch a documentary, especially something historical, a lot of 529 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: times you can feel the sweatiness of the visuals there. 530 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: They clearly had to dig for something to put here, 531 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: Like okay, we're panning over photographs. Here, we're you know, 532 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: we've got some weird visual metaphor happening, or we're looking 533 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: at uh, like reenactment footage. Sometimes it just feels like, okay, 534 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: we get it, Like you had to put something there 535 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: and you didn't have something. But with audio, there's you 536 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: don't there's no cheating, you just it's all. It's all there. 537 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: It's all speaking right into the person ear, which is 538 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: inside their head, which is right next to their brain. 539 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: It's like a laser. 540 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: And I found that in an interesting way when we 541 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: put out the first couple episodes of Ultra, we didn't 542 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: make up any of the sound. All the sound that 543 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: we used was was real tape. But a lot of 544 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: people thought that we had faked the news broadcasts, that 545 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: we had found actors who were going to speak in 546 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 2: weird old trans Atlantic accent. 547 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: It is hard to believe that broadcasters spoke in this 548 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: heightened tone like that. Yeah, it's it's kind of wild, 549 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: but they really. 550 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: Told ourselves that old timey news was all very objective 551 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: and stayed and there wasn't any opinion or emotion in it. Yeah, 552 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: because they really did talk like this and then threw 553 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: all sorts of shade and their side and they were, 554 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: you know. 555 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: And lots of asides and lots of opinion, and that's 556 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: what it sounded like. 557 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Well, so tell us what's happening next with Ultra because 558 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: there's a very exciting sort of next step. 559 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is I kind of can't believe it. 560 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: But Steven Spielberg optioned Ultra to make a movie out 561 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: of it, and so he's this you know, he's an 562 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,719 Speaker 2: up and comer, is the one that sort of one 563 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: to watch. 564 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: First of all, huge congratulations, and it's a no brainer. 565 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: This makes perfect sense. The story is so riveting. 566 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 3: I hope that that is true. 567 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: I mean what I am learning is as I am 568 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: sort of tiptoeing into this side of the world where 569 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: I have never been before, is that a movie is 570 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: going to be made? 571 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: Is you know, yeah, we're going to ruin it with visuals. 572 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 3: Well no, but like is a movie going to be made? 573 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,479 Speaker 2: Like until someone is buying a ticket, receiving their change, 574 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: and walking into a dark room where a projector is running. 575 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: I don't believe the movie exists, you know what I mean, Like, 576 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: there's a lot that goes in between optioning a movie 577 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: and then it actually coming into the world, and. 578 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 3: So I believe that it's going to be a movie. 579 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 3: But we'll see. I know, I'm you know, I did this. 580 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 2: My previous podcast was called Bagman, was about Spiro Agnew 581 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: and that's also in the movie making process. That's going 582 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 2: to be a focus features film. But it just takes 583 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: a long time, and there's all sorts of things that happen. 584 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm used to a daily production cable 585 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: news world, where you think of something in the morning 586 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 2: and it's on TV at night and then you have 587 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: to stop thinking about it because you got to do 588 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: something else the next day. 589 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: And that's how we make movies. Rachel No, I know, 590 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: I know, there's a whole rigamarole, and you're very wise 591 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: to kind of hold off on on the excitement of 592 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: having a movie until you're walking in the door. But 593 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: just having a movie optioned by someone like Spielberg is 594 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: so thrilling or focused features for the Agnews story. Those 595 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: are just such credible storytellers and you can sort of 596 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: feel confident that they'll be these stories will be handled 597 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: very well. I feel like this would be such a 598 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: cool movie. 599 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: Both of them feel like movies to me too, Like 600 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: I like, you know, I watch as much you know, 601 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 2: streaming television and miniseries and all that stuff as anybody else. 602 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: But I do feel like both of these stories like 603 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: seem like, you know, sit down for two hours and 604 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: watch a single arc in the movie theater like its 605 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: just and I would. I'd just love for it to 606 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: work in both cases. 607 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: So I think I should play Oh, John Rocky, Okay, 608 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: you think I should be Roggy in this movie? 609 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: Right? 610 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean that just skills obvious, obvious obvious. Okay. So 611 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: both of our podcasts have a lot of present day 612 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: relevance and impressions, and yours, I think is is really 613 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: really intensely relevant to right now. So in what at 614 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: what stage in your process did the events of January 615 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: sixth happen? Was that? Were you already working on this podcast? 616 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: No, I wasn't working on the Sedition trial by that point. 617 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 3: What was weird is that the. 618 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: Resonance stuff like I felt like I got a little 619 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: kick in the teeth from the universe because when the 620 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: first episode of Ultra was posted, when we published was 621 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 2: the day that the Oathkeeper's sedition trial started, so. 622 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 3: That was that was weird. 623 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: And then it was eight episodes and by the time 624 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 2: we got to episode eight was when we were waiting 625 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 2: for the verdict. So it was really just that was uncanny. 626 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: I just felt like that was a that was a 627 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 2: little that was unsettling almost, But you know it also 628 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: I feel like you do in trying to pick the 629 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: right story to tell, you have to believe in the 630 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 2: story on its own terms, sort of regardless of the resonance. Like, yes, 631 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 2: there is going to be resonance, and there are lessons 632 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: to be learned and things to be gleaned from the 633 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: past that could help us in our current contention. But 634 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: I don't feel like you can you can't let that 635 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: drive you know, that has to a little bit of 636 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: that is just going to be stuff that you can't 637 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: see along the way, I was thinking about it with 638 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: Able Archer and Snafu with the before the Korean airliner 639 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: was shot down, you highlight how the Russians were essentially 640 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: paying were giving bounties to their own side for people 641 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: who were spotting radar incursions on the radar, and so 642 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: you were essentially saying, like, that's bad news in terms 643 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 2: of what eventually happens with the civilian airliner being shot 644 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: down after being misidentified as a military threat in Russian airspace. Well, 645 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,959 Speaker 2: you know, just within the past week, Russia just gave 646 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 2: medals to the fighter pilots who dumped all that fuel 647 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 2: on the US Reaper drone over the Black Sea. 648 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 3: I mean, it's the same. 649 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure you weren't thinking about that when 650 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 2: you didable Archer and suffer, But Russia is doing the 651 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: same thing in monetarily and with military awards, rewarding people 652 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 2: for doing incrediblyckless things that threaten conflict between the East 653 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: and West. 654 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: Sure. Well, one of the things that I think was 655 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: really profound in Ultra was what this idea that emerged 656 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: that there was no legal remedy for all of this 657 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: horrible behavior. The legal remedies failed, there was a mistrial, 658 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: and then the government basically just gave up on prosecuting 659 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: these misdeeds and because they didn't want the headache, and 660 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: so Roggy sort of makes the case in that Meet 661 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: the Press interview that the remedy then must be just 662 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: transparency and information, getting it out there, educating the public. 663 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: That's all you can do. When this bad behavior can't 664 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: be actually meaningfully reprimanded in some way, all you can 665 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: do is expose it. And I think that's very powerful. 666 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: It's also a little bit terrifying and disheartening, and I 667 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: wonder if you feel like the January sixth trials have 668 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: They've obviously gone a lot smoother than the Great Sedition trial, 669 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: but is that evidence of progress? Do you think we're 670 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: doing better? 671 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 2: It's interesting because it really does. I think it cuts 672 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 2: both ways. I think there is a case to be 673 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: made by looking back at the fascist movements in this 674 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 2: country that were supported by Nazi Germany, including an element 675 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 2: of that that operated inside the Congress. There's ways to 676 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: look back at that, all that story that I tell 677 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 2: in Ultra and say, you know, some of these things 678 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 2: were legit crimes and people should have gone to jail, 679 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: and that like crimes were committed here and crimes should 680 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: have been prosecuted as such, including by some members of Congress, 681 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: where that escaped punishment. I think largely because they bullied 682 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 2: the Justice Department into not coming out for them, and 683 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: we're seeing a little bit of that happening. We're seeing 684 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 2: some resonance with some of the stuff that's happening right 685 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: now in our new cycle. But the other, the sort 686 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: of good news side of what Roggy was preaching on 687 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: Meet the Press that day is that, you know, the 688 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 2: people need to know this information. The legal remedy isn't there. 689 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 2: The legal remedy is that the legal solution has failed. 690 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 2: The legal remedy cannot be used as are the sum 691 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: total of our response here. What has to happen is 692 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 2: that the people need to know. And obviously people knowing 693 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: isn't an end in itself. That doesn't fix it. What 694 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: he means, what goes unsaid, is that when the people know, 695 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 2: they will act and if and you can trust Americans 696 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 2: to defend our democracy and to stand up against tyranny 697 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 2: and to reject authoritarianism and anti semitism and all the 698 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 2: other things that go with it, but they need to 699 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 2: know that it's happening. And so that one calls on 700 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 2: all of us. Yeah, I mean, it calls on journalists, 701 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: it calls on activists, it calls on everybody. Who can 702 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 2: contribute to the public record, including you know, dorks making 703 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: podcasts down the road. But hopefully it means that a 704 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 2: well informed public will make righteous decisions. 705 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 3: And I want to believe that I. 706 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: Do too, And I think that's a good note to 707 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: end on. Rachel, thank you so so very much for 708 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: jumping in the booth here and having this chat with us. 709 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: It's just really, really fun, and I wish you the 710 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: best of luck with the movie adaptation. 711 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 3: Thanks Ed, Thanks this has been super fun. I appreciate it. 712 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and 713 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's 714 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo, 715 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: Andy Chuck, and Whitney Donaldson. Our lead producers are Sarah 716 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, Associate 717 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: producer Tory Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis via 718 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: Canny as our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. 719 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to 720 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: Alison Cohen and Matt Eisenstadt.