1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: to you absolutely free. But if you want at free 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: dot com or on Apple Podcasts. 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised, and we're back Talking to Death. 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and just say this spoiler alert. 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: If you are listening to Up and Vanished, then there's 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: spoilers coming. If you haven't listened to episode four yet, 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: I'm assuming you have. In these intro segments during the 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: Up and Vanish season, we're gonna be talking about the 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,319 Speaker 1: most recent episode this week. It's episode four. Thanks are 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: shaping up here again. I think I want to kick 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: to Dylan to help me set this up. 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: Oh boy, my head's all kind of mixed up now. 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 3: This episode has been interesting because you've introduced this entirely 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 3: new theory for the first time. We've been going to 19 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 3: this idea that Oregon John is the main culprit, and 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: he may still be. It's very likely. It seems like 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 3: this new theory still ties him in, but there's a 22 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: larger world that's opening up here, more conspiracy, more intrigue 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: in a completely different direction. What can you tell us 24 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 3: about this new theory? 25 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: From pretty much it feels like day one, we have 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: only heard about this guy named Oregon John, but there 27 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: are some basic, cold, hard facts that make him extremely 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: central here. One of the last people to see her, 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: if not the very last person to see Flow. He 30 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: had her things in his tint on West Beach. He's 31 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: been seen by witnesses allegedly driving Flow away from West 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,639 Speaker 1: Beach on his four wheeler that night and then coming 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: back super late in the morning without her. If you're 34 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: looking at flows last steps and what she was doing 35 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: in those moments before she disappeared, it seems like John 36 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: is a part of all of it, unless we're missing 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: some sort of big link here. And so really, until 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: this point when Sue reached out to me, there had 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: been really no other theory as to what may have 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: happened to her that night. And so she brings up 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: these text messages that she was sent and I've since 42 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: gone through and I've validated and verified that these are 43 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: definitely real and how she received them. I traced it 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: all the way back. They're legitimate and there's this person, 45 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: there's this girl who I'm that we're calling Kelly for now, 46 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: this is we're getting to the part of the investigation 47 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: where we're exploring a lot of the rumor mil But 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: the thing about it is sometimes the rumor mill is 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: actually what the hell happened. And so on multiple occasions, 50 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: this girl who were calling Kelly was texting different people 51 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: claiming to have intimate knowledge as to what happened to 52 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: flow that night, and she brings up this group of people. 53 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: Now John is associated with this group of people, but 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, she seems to kind of leave out 55 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: John's name specifically in a lot of these texts, even 56 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: though I know for a fact that the group that 57 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: she's talking about these people hung out together, and it 58 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: just for the first time sort of poses the idea 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: that what if John is just the most unlucky guy 60 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: in the world, right, what if he's just the unluckiest 61 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: guy in the world and he had her things, but 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: she left his tent and she went somewhere else with 63 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: these other gentlemen and somehow died in the process, And 64 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: so it just kind of makes you scratch your head 65 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: and wonder, one if Kelly is telling the truth, which 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: that was quickly up for debate by people that we've 67 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: talked to. Even Sue herself said not all of it 68 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: kind of adds up and sort of contradicts itself. And 69 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: so this is something that you really have to pick 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: apart because so far everything that has to do with 71 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: Oregon John, for the most part, it does make sense. 72 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: Besides hearing John's testimony himself, everything that points to him 73 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: from tons of different people all seem to make a 74 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: pretty clear narrative. But I'm also curious, you know, what 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: you guys think or what your takeaway is from what 76 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: Sue was saying and those those texts from Kelly. 77 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: I mean, the text are wild. Why would somebody just 78 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: all of a sudden start saying this. I mean, if 79 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: you have information, yeah, bring it forward. But is this 80 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: just weighing on you and that's why you're getting it 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 2: off your chest? Or is this some kind of muddying 82 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 2: the waters? Like what is going on with this? It's 83 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: weird because it's like, when did this happen? When did 84 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: these messages happen? And why? 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: Now you know, Well, that's actually a good point because 86 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: the when the messages happened is actually pretty important here. 87 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: The first messages I saw were from Sue, and I 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: verified that they were real, These messages that were sent 89 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: out to different people from Kelly, who's the only person 90 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: here who's claiming that these things happened to flow that 91 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: night that involve these other people. Right, these were sent 92 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: a couple of years after the fact, And so a 93 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: party who starts to wonder, Okay, why didn't this person 94 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: come forward sooner? Is this sort of the rumor mill 95 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: getting out of control? Is this people just grasping at straws. 96 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: Does she have some sort of vendetta against somebody? You know, 97 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: what's the motivation behind this? And why now? 98 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 4: Right? 99 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: But then when I talked to one of Floa's friends, 100 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: who will remain anonymous, she sent me other messages from 101 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: Kelly from way earlier than the ones that I saw 102 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: with Sue, and they were different. And the biggest takeaway 103 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: I had from the messages Flo's friend sent me was 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: that Kelly was saying John was a part of this 105 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: John and this other individual. So I just confused as 106 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: to how, in the process of a couple of years, 107 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: the narrative went from John being central in Kelly's theory 108 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: to him being left off of the theory entirely when 109 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: she's texting people years later, and I just to me, 110 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: that's suspicious that it makes you wonder when is it 111 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: true at all? Two? Is there a specific reason that 112 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: she's not including John in these messages? Right? 113 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. Why would her story change these 114 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: years later? What is her motivation for telling anyone in 115 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: this That's what I want to know. Or is she 116 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: doing this to get the pressure off of her off 117 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: of her like weighing her down? Or is this she's 118 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: trying to leak some information to get stuff moving. But 119 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: why would her story change so many years later? 120 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 4: Hmm? 121 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: I would tend to believe the messages from earlier with 122 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: Flow's friend. 123 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: I would almost always lean more into the testimony or 124 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: witness statements or whatever was said by anyone right after 125 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: things happened. So I put more value into the messages 126 00:07:54,080 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: Kelly sent to Flow's friend freshly after Florence was reported missing, 127 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: because that's so early on that nobody should really be 128 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: assuming that she could be dead at all unless there 129 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: was some other knowledge you had about a suspicious circumstance, 130 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: or you saw her die, or you saw her deceased body. 131 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: It sounds like she's saying she was right next to 132 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: Florence's body. She doesn't do anything to clear up the 133 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: fact that that wasn't what she was saying. She doesn't 134 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: explicitly say that literally, but the implication is pretty clear 135 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: to me. I think that she believes that she was 136 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: around Flow after she was deceased and they wouldn't let 137 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: her back into this tent. What the hell is she 138 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: talking about? But why would you even say that if 139 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: it was completely bogus? 140 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like you wouldn't bring up the tent 141 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: and in the way that she did, if she didn't 142 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: feel some sort of like dread or terror about what 143 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: was inside the tent. Now, the thing everybody needs to know, 144 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: or somebody needs to confess to is how did she 145 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: become that way? Right, we have the call with her 146 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: in the bushes, which is a big deal, and then 147 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: after I assume after her friend is talking about not 148 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: being let into the tent. So what happened between that 149 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: call and her not being let in the tent? 150 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: And I know that I'm not the police. I know 151 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: that nobody has an obligation to talk to me in 152 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: any way, shape or form, and I'm taking that into 153 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: consideration with what I'm about to say. But if you 154 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: look at all the players that we've learned of so far, 155 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: people who've made stateents like this, Kelly is the only 156 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: one who seems to be intentionally dodging me. I mean, 157 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: on multiple occasions, over several weeks, in several different circumstances, 158 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: pretends to me like she wants to help, and then 159 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: flakes out at the end in a way that doesn't 160 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: really even seem that genuine to me. Is the problem. 161 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: And that's just my opinion there. But I have nothing 162 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: else to go off of other than my interactions with her, 163 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: And I feel like if what she is saying is 164 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: entirely true, and she's saying it from a place where 165 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: she wants to help find out what happened to Flow 166 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: and solve this murder, then her behavior would be different. 167 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: She's made some very big claims on record, and it's 168 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: documented in several different places by tons of different people. 169 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: I would just I would think that someone who said 170 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: those kinds of things would feel some sort of moral 171 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: obligation to speak to that, you know, looking at the 172 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: bigger picture, you know, I think the real value that 173 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: up and Vanish can bring in terms of making a 174 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: positive impact and pushing this case forward in some way, 175 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: is that we're learning a lot of new information and 176 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: we're trying to shake down what's true, what isn't and 177 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, what's hiding in here. And I think that 178 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: the most that we can do because we can't arrest anybody. 179 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: I can't arrest anybody. Anybody could come, anybody in this 180 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: case could come confess to me and prove it, but 181 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't do anything about it other than telling the listeners, 182 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: telling the public, telling you guys, and telling the police. 183 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: That's really it, right, And so I think that looking 184 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: at the bigger picture, we're just going to keep collecting 185 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: all this information and put it out there. And with 186 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: this information, we're also going to put pressure on the 187 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: people who have the power and ability to do stuff 188 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: about it. 189 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: What can viewers look forward to from episode five? Can 190 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 3: you give us a little taste? 191 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: Well, there's always been, you know, since the beginning, Oregon 192 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: John has been what started out is to me almost 193 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: like this mythical is he even real character? 194 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 4: Right? 195 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: Turns out he's very real. Turns Out he's very bad. 196 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: You know, everyone said he fled town been gone for 197 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: a long time, long gone, right. What people have said 198 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: to us is that they think he's in the Philippines. 199 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: These are far away places that if that's where he 200 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: really is, good luck ever talking to him. Really, But 201 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: after learning his full name and having some more information 202 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: on this individual, we were able to do some legitimate 203 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: Internet searching. Turns out he's not in the Philippines. He's 204 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: right here in Alaska. It's time for me to go 205 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: find him and talk to him. Today's guest is one 206 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: of my good friends. His name is Jason Hoak. I 207 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: met him in the middle of producing season one of 208 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: Up and Vanished years ago, and we've had so many long, 209 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: deep nuanced discussions about true crime, making, investigative podcasts, podcasting 210 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: in general. We have a really deep conversation about making 211 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: these shows and digging into this really heavy content. I 212 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: think it's a really unique insight into how these shows 213 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: are made and sort of the collaboration part of it too. 214 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: He's been following Up and Vanished every week just like 215 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: you all, I hope, and so he was up to 216 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: date on exactly where episode four ended. I actually let 217 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: him hear it early because I wanted to talk to 218 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: him on talking to death. Here's my interview with Jason Hoak. 219 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: Jason Man, we're here, We're here. 220 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, we did it. 221 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: We're done. 222 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, Mike Drop, how are you feeling great? You know, 223 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 4: I think you and I talk all the time and 224 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 4: really weird incarnations. Right. Yeah. We come up for air 225 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 4: every two or three weeks or two or three months 226 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 4: or over there. Okay, cool, it's a text at four 227 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: in the morning. Yeah, like check this out out or 228 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 4: whatever it is. It's always some very nugget. 229 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 230 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, but we've never done this. 231 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: Never sat down like an interview style thing. We've had 232 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: plenty of conversations like this. 233 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, off, Mike exactly. Yeah, this is great to me. 234 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: It's always a funny story looking back, and we've told 235 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: it several times different people. How we met. I want 236 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: you to retell the story of how we met from 237 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: your perspective back in the day. 238 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. So we were at Pont City Market here in Atlanta, 239 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 4: actually just right down from where we are in the 240 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 4: studio right now, and we were the second tenants behind 241 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 4: Mailchimp and still a pretty empty building. We're really excited 242 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 4: about the space we built studios. We had kind of 243 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 4: everyone finally in the right home for how stuff works. 244 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 4: And I was leading that team at the time as 245 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: chief content Officer, and I was really excited about the 246 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 4: fact that podcasts were becoming a thing and we had 247 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 4: real numbers and something was happening. Right. Cyrial had come out, 248 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 4: so there was a validation that this was a big thing, 249 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 4: and we had Apple out for the first time. They 250 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 4: actually came to Atlanta and did a little world tour, 251 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 4: so Steve Wilson, James Boggs, they came by the office 252 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 4: and hung out with us for an afternoon and we 253 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 4: had lunch, and I remember, I think it was Steve 254 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 4: said to me, we both know Steve, you know forever. 255 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: He says, Oh, we have a we have to go 256 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 4: upstairs to meet Payne. I'm like, what are you talking about? Upstairs? No, 257 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 4: in this building, there's this guy. I don't know if 258 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 4: you've heard of up and Vanish, but he's upstairs, and 259 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 4: have you listened to it. I'm like, I have no 260 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 4: idea what you're talking about. I was just in another zone, 261 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 4: of course, and then that was it. They left and 262 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: I got your contact info from one of the guys 263 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 4: after a great visit, and I emailed you. It was 264 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 4: pretty short. I was like, hey, I had no id 265 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 4: Apple was here. I had no idea. I just picked 266 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 4: up the first couple of episodes Up and Vanished. Let's talk, Yeah, 267 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 4: and what happened? 268 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: I responded, What's funny is that Donald and I were 269 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: looking for an office space and this is in the 270 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: middle of the first season of Up and Vanish. We're 271 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: probably like, I don't know, ten episodes in or something 272 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: like that, right, I was binging, like I was trying 273 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: to catch and it was, you know, in the thick 274 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: of it, and this is I think it might it 275 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: was it was before the break in the case. Maybe 276 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know which point it was. That, 277 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: but we were looking for office space and we went 278 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: to Pacity Market and we saw that how Stuff Works 279 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: was there, and we knew that House of Works made podcasts, 280 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: and I had like the silliest thought of like, well, 281 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: I mean, if they're here and they're making podcasts, and 282 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we should be here too. 283 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 4: It's not that silly of a thought, right. 284 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: I guess in hindsight now it wasn't. But like I 285 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: wasn't really trying to I was like, this seemed like 286 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: a good path and then so you sent me that 287 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: email and then I went down upstairs to meet you 288 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: one day, and I remember walking into your office and 289 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: I realized once I sat down in the chair in 290 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: front of your desk, I was like, what am I 291 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: doing here? 292 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 4: Exactly? 293 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: Like what are we? Just like saying hey to each other, 294 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: and as it's a job interview, and we just started 295 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: talking about what we were working on, and I don't 296 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: remember how it came upout. I want to say that 297 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: you somehow mentioned the Atlanta child murders first. 298 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and then you were ready, you were like, yeah, yeah, 299 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 4: us too. 300 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: Because Donald and I had been talking about that case 301 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: and Wayne Williams and the idea of doing a podcast 302 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: series about that, because I was blown away by the 303 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: fact that I didn't I'd never heard of the Atlanta 304 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: child murders. And I was in my head at that 305 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: point thinking that maybe the next podcast I do is 306 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: not up in Vantish season two, it's it's this other 307 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: podcast about this, And you had mentioned that, and we 308 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: basically somehow eventually got to the point where we were 309 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: collaborating on this. Yeah. 310 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I think I was really hungry to start 311 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 4: the kind of narrative version of how stuff works. It 312 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: didn't exist, and I just fascinated about fresh original. 313 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: Story podcast narratives. 314 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like limited series, like what was going to 315 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 4: go in that sense? Yeah, what was going to be 316 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 4: our thing? That's kind of was kind of my jam. 317 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 4: And I was just like, I want that. And so, 318 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 4: you know, listen, I was a white kid growing up 319 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,239 Speaker 4: in Wisconsin. I was probably eleven twelve years all the 320 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 4: time that all this happened in Atlanta, but I remembered 321 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 4: it and it stuck with me. But I never resolved that, 322 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 4: and so I just wanted to do something in our 323 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 4: own backyard. And I just thought, Okay, let's just do it. 324 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 4: Let's just start making a true crime show about this. 325 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 4: And I discovered at University of Georgia in Athens, Georgia, 326 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 4: they've got this amazing media lab and WSBTVS, which is 327 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 4: one of the local TV stations here, who typically those 328 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 4: stations have no idea how to organize themselves with their archives. Yeah, 329 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 4: so they either don't do anything with them, or they 330 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 4: give it to someone else. And so they wisely, you know, 331 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 4: kind of gave that to a whole library service at 332 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 4: University of Georgia and one of the biggest kind of 333 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 4: archives that they had was about the Atlanta child murders 334 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 4: and Wayne Williams and everything, and it was absolutely stunning. 335 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 4: You remember going downstairs in the in the this massive 336 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 4: kind of library. 337 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: It was something out of a movie. It was literally 338 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: like a vault going down into the Harry Potter basement 339 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: of some archive place. And they once they transcoded and 340 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: put all that stuff digitized, it I mean I was 341 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: up for hours every night watching these clips, like living 342 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: like I was in the seventies. 343 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 4: Incredible, And I remember remember the main kind of library 344 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 4: and archivist saying, we always knew someone would show up 345 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 4: to do this story. We just didn't know who and 346 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: we didn't know when that's actually pretty cool, it's really cool, 347 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 4: and like it really touches it was. 348 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, like it wasn't all for nothing, like we really 349 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: and also we made good use of that tape. I 350 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: mean we really did. 351 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 4: So this is the unofficial official story about that. They 352 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 4: kind of didn't have their act together in terms of 353 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 4: like and this is still a little bit of the 354 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 4: case today. What should we charge, what's the quantity, what's 355 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 4: the per second? What this is what we have to 356 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 4: deal with sometimes if we're not kind of dealing with. 357 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: Fair use with archival stuff, right. 358 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, so they know how to do video, but they've 359 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 4: never done audio in podcasts before, so it was really 360 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 4: kind of not familiar, both for University of Georgia, the 361 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 4: Brown Media Archives, Yeah, but also WSBTV. There was no 362 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 4: precedent for there was no precedent and and so we 363 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 4: did it. We actually paid a significant amount of money 364 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 4: for that. But I heard later on from that same 365 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 4: woman at WA TV, who we used, I think for 366 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 4: in The Red Clay and some other things that I 367 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 4: worked on, Gangster House, et cetera. She said, we should 368 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 4: have probably charged you ten times what we charged. So 369 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 4: we were sitting on this kind of massive library and 370 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 4: I think, you know, archives speak to something that the 371 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 4: librarian said about you know, we didn't know when and 372 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 4: we didn't know who. There's also the other the flip 373 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 4: side of this. If no one shows up, then no 374 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 4: one tells the story. And you know the story of 375 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 4: the Atlanta child murders and Wayne Williams and everything that's 376 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 4: been down has kind of been out there for years, 377 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 4: but it hasn't it's never really done. The deep dive 378 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 4: and o Solidad O'Brien's did a great piece for CNN, 379 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 4: but kind of bringing that into the present day had 380 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 4: never really been done. It's just sitting there, just sitting 381 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 4: And I see this all the time in the Red 382 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 4: Clay with the Dixie Moth. Yeah, and you know Stony 383 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 4: and his father, these things are just sitting there and 384 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: time is passing so quickly that if we don't dig 385 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 4: up all these amazing stories, they're just bound to be 386 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 4: buried forever. And I think Atlanta Monster is the perfect 387 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 4: example of something that was kind of there. It was 388 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 4: ready for a discussion, yeah, and it just had all 389 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 4: the pieces generationally, culturally whatever to do what it did. 390 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: So how would you describe because we really built the 391 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: atlantos Land Monster podcast together, right, Yeah, how would you 392 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: describe how it was working together on that? And like 393 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: the process of actually making that show. 394 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 4: Wow, there's so many parts to this. 395 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: Because like later on, we went into it making a 396 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: show not knowing or even thinking that we could get 397 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: Wayne Williams right, and then at a certain point. 398 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 4: We did, and then we said we don't want to 399 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 4: tell the audience that we had. Wayne Williams, you were 400 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 4: actually very smart to say ye. I think it was 401 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 4: episode five. We brought him in. We have to hold 402 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 4: people off, you know. I'm kind of in the position 403 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 4: of if we don't hook people by that first or 404 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,239 Speaker 4: second episode, they may not stay with us, we may 405 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: not know this story. We need to bring me too, 406 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: we need to hook them in. So it was a 407 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 4: really a great creative discussion about you've already done the 408 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 4: recordings with him, you're having real time conversations. 409 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: Gave more time to have more recordings with him. Yeah, 410 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: because I knew that once I started putting it out, 411 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: he was going to change his tune about that's right 412 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: everything because he's going to be able to hear himself. 413 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 4: Yeah. And looking in hindsight, it was brilliant right holding off. 414 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 4: I always say, like, don't hold on the things. Actually 415 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 4: put him there forward, because in every episode you've got 416 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 4: something great to share that's going to be big, so 417 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 4: put it forward first. But in this case, I actually 418 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 4: think it was the right call. Yeah, And that was 419 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 4: it just went against my natural instinct and actually your 420 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 4: right instinct, I think. 421 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: But also I think it forces you to look at 422 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: all the other stuff and we we hooked you with 423 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: the story. In other elements, and it made if you 424 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: like that exercise, made us do that knowing that we 425 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: have something even bigger coming, But what can we do 426 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: with this? And like so those first three episodes were 427 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: really cool because it it just took you through, like 428 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: the whole story at large. Why would you even care 429 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: about Wayn Williams talking to a podcaster if you didn't 430 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: know who he was and what he may have done? 431 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 4: Right, So, no matter what the this could be the 432 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 4: most the biggest thing in the world that's ever been covered. 433 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 4: It could be the Oklahoma City bombing, it could be 434 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 4: nine to eleven, it could be the Olympic bombing, whatever 435 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 4: that is, you have to assume that no one knows anything. 436 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 4: You actually have to start from scratching. You need to 437 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 4: start telling that story as if no one knows it, 438 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 4: not to insult their intelligence, but to lay the framework 439 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 4: for what you're gonna bring later on. And it is 440 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 4: so important to establish that and I think some people 441 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 4: get that wrong. And you have so much. You have 442 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 4: people that cannecto tell the story for you, YEP, archives 443 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 4: that can tell the story for you, and people that 444 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 4: were there at the time. All those things help you 445 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 4: tell that story to either the people that already know it, 446 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 4: and you give them a little kernel of something that 447 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 4: they didn't know and they're hooked, or like we talked 448 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 4: about before, those young people who know nothing about it 449 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 4: and you're setting the framework. 450 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: Shit got off the rails around five or six because 451 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: I had built all the way up to this arc 452 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: in my head with Wayne, and then Wayne Williams just 453 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 1: fucked everything up. Then I found myself less as a podcaster, 454 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: and I was just talking. I was just appeasing Wayne 455 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: Williams for hours on end, trying to find a moment 456 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: or a gap in between his talking to try to 457 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: get him to answer any real questions. And then I 458 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: was like, this isn't gonna work the way I thought 459 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: it was going to work, And so that I had 460 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: to spend days while not like still responding to him 461 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,479 Speaker 1: and going back through the tape. I was like, I 462 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: know he's lied to me. Where did he lie to me? 463 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: And I went through and I found them specifically, and 464 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: I had to go double triple quadruple check with the 465 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: facts of the case and all the court records and 466 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: everything and how I asked that and I'm like, Okay, 467 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: now that I know he lied, here here here here, 468 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: how do I present it to him? And how do 469 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: I keep him on topic? And so I was gearing 470 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: up for that for the last several episodes, and that 471 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: shit was happening really as the podcast was coming out. 472 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 4: We said at the time, one, I don't recommend this, 473 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 4: I don't do this, will never happen again. And that's 474 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 4: a lie. 475 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: Because right now, yeah, it's happening. I'm doing it right now. 476 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 4: I'm doing it right now too. 477 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's something to that though, right yeah, And 478 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: you know it's gonna kill Donald to hear this, but like, 479 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: and also we're both correct here, right. If you're making content, 480 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: you're making a show in general, then you need to 481 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: have it all together and buttoned up before you deliver 482 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: it in some way to an audience. With certain types 483 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: of true crime shows podcasts especially, I think that there 484 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: is a level of fluidity that you don't have to 485 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: stick to and lean into. But if you're not, I 486 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: think you're not doing the case a good service here. 487 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: I think that you're you're minimizing your opportunity to move 488 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: the needle. 489 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 4: Do you think we've gotten away from that? Though? 490 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: I feel like that to me is far gone. 491 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 4: I feel like the factories have been built, the content's 492 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 4: being cranked out, and this is what I that's kind 493 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 4: of what I'm a little bit that is the chaos 494 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 4: is the surprise, it's the revelation. Like I just feel 495 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 4: like we need more people out there doing this, taking chances, 496 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: knocking on doors, throwing stuff in the trash, reinventing it 497 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 4: last minute. Like it's kind of the swashbuckling of podcasts 498 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 4: that I that I kind of miss. Yeah, And I 499 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 4: think even further than that, whatever you think of what's 500 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 4: gone on in the industry of the last let's just 501 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 4: say year. You know, narratives, limited series I believe are 502 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 4: well no matter what form these are taking, whether it's 503 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 4: talk like this or it's video or whatever, I still 504 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 4: believe that limited series are the heart and soul of 505 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 4: the industry. Just it's kind of like HBO can exist 506 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 4: without their ten pole programs, without True Detective, without Game 507 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: of Thrones, without White Lotus. That's what everyone loves. That's 508 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 4: the appointment viewing. So we're a little bit swing the 509 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 4: other way because of nervousness around economics and scale and 510 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 4: all that stuff, and some teams just not existing anymore, 511 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 4: getting gutted, playing it safe, cranking up the factory, if 512 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 4: you will. And I just I believe that this is cyclical. 513 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 4: I think that this will come back. I think we 514 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 4: haven't really talked about that many shows being made into 515 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 4: TV series or movies as much as we did. I 516 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: think that's already coming back in a big way. I've 517 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 4: got a lot to talk about there. And I just 518 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 4: think it just takes that energy. There's a real energy 519 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 4: in making these limited series, and a real energy with 520 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 4: the audience that you just don't get anywhere else. And 521 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 4: I'm just fiercely, fiercely gung ho of just trying to 522 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 4: make the best shit that I can. I'm like that, because. 523 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: Why have you just settled and been like, Dan, this 524 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: is good enough. 525 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 4: I think maybe you and not that many people will 526 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 4: understand this, But I want to make this stuff that 527 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 4: I want to make, and I feel like I'm never finished, 528 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 4: and I'm exhausted by franchise franchises, superheroes, reboots, recuts, prequels, sequels, recasting. 529 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 4: I just when fresh content hit hits me, I just 530 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 4: I just it's great, right, It's so refreshing, And. 531 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: So you clearly like the documentary I do so you 532 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: love the storytelling, But why do you like true crime storytelling? 533 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: Because that's a that's a specific thing and it comes 534 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: with a lot. 535 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of my lanes, I. 536 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: Would Yeah, of course one of my lanes too. 537 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 4: I wouldn't say my lane is drama. Okay, So is 538 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 4: that how you look at it? I look at it 539 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 4: as I'm the drama guy, and there's hints of drama. 540 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 4: There's hints of true crime in drama. So like, is 541 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 4: the Soprano's true crime? Right? Like there's intercessions, right, there's 542 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 4: nuances in this in this space. Yeah, I will tell 543 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 4: you though. After Zodiac Killer, when we did that, yeah, 544 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 4: I was done with serial killers. That was like my rule. 545 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 4: I was like, I just can't deal with that version 546 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 4: of true crime. 547 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to separate yourself from from that stuff 548 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: at a certain point, or you get to a point 549 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: where you learn that you gotta comportmentalizing it and shielding 550 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: yourself or taking a break from it is what you 551 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: need to do to tell the story properly and to 552 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: stay in your own lane and not fuck this up 553 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: like it happens every single time for me. 554 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 555 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: Mostly, you know, I'm not really ever looking at awful 556 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: photos of stuff, and we've seen it, but it's usually 557 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: I'm in the thick of it, dealing with persons of 558 00:32:54,360 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: interest and family and this interconnected thing that is, there's 559 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: no definitive right or wrong, and I'm on the pulse 560 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: of it and I don't want to back down, but 561 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: there's no clear path forward either, And that's uh. You've 562 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: got to be able to check yourself and step back 563 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: and look at it differently constantly, or else you're going 564 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: to beat fall victim of it, yourself, of your of 565 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 1: your own storytelling, of your own obsession with it. 566 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think if you, if you, let's 567 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 4: actually to answer your question, let's take let's take True 568 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 4: Detective as an example. Let's think of season one with 569 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 4: Yeah McConaughey and Woody Harrelson, and then the most recent 570 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 4: season with Jodi Foster. There is a kind of an 571 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 4: inherent desire to find out what happens. Yeah, it's just 572 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 4: there's it's it's a mystery. Yeah, true crime is a 573 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 4: mystery that you, as the audience, are trying to piece 574 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 4: together and solve. I think as a creator, as a producer, 575 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 4: as someone out in the field, you're kind of not 576 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 4: only experiencing that, but you're actually living that. There's actually 577 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 4: something in your god that drives you to want to 578 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 4: figure stuff out. 579 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: You're solving the mystery of the storytelling. 580 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly right. How even if I know more than 581 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 4: the audience, what should I tell them? And when should 582 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 4: I tell them that stuff? 583 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 1: Right? 584 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 4: It's fascinating, Yeah, it's it's wild. Yeah. Yeah. 585 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: So you like true crime because of the mystery, really, 586 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: and I think that's a that is an age old genre. 587 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: It's timeless things that you don't understand or that bothers people, 588 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: that scratches that curiosity bone in your body, right, And 589 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: that's why I'm so drawn to true crime. I hate 590 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: even the term true crime. I like the mystery of it. 591 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts about true crime. But 592 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: I had this whole opening monologue that I had written 593 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: and I recorded it. I played it back for myself 594 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, yeah, I can't put this 595 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: out there. 596 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 4: This is ridiculous. 597 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: But I ended up slimming it down from like ten 598 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: minutes to like three minutes, and you actually hear it 599 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: at the end of episode one in the new season. 600 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: But how I feel about it is that when I 601 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: first made up and vanished, there wasn't a blueprint really 602 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: for the non journalist, non credentialed person to be making 603 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: a investigative show on an unsolved case and be that 604 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: in depth with it. And then that got really big 605 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: and I got a lot of shit for being that 606 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: guy who shouldn't be that guy. And that's okay, that's fine, 607 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: and like, I ate that, dealt with that, learned from that, 608 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: matured from that. Then you fast forward, you know, seven 609 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: years later, season four, right, everyone does that. It is 610 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: totally normal now for Joshmo to go make go investigate 611 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: a cold case and make a podcast about it. And 612 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: I kind of just realized that on my own in 613 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: like an organic way, and it made me think, Okay, 614 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: so I have two options here in making a new 615 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: season of this show. I can do what I know 616 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: how to do and stick to that and just tell 617 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: a good story. But what if I take all that 618 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: I've learned from, all my mistakes, all the things that worked, 619 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 1: as much as I've been hardened over the years, and 620 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: went even harder and took bigger risks that I wouldn't 621 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: have taken or couldn't have taken back then. Feel again 622 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: how I felt in two thousands sixteen, scared alone on 623 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,800 Speaker 1: an island. If I do that, then I'll have no regrets. 624 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's actually something I wanted to comment about this season, 625 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 4: that you really you address something that's kind of been 626 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 4: It's stuck with me for years and I've let it. 627 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 4: What was it, which part fear? Yeah? So the first 628 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 4: whatever I told you, this first nine or ten minutes 629 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 4: of the first episode of this season is an absolute masterpiece. 630 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: Okay, one, thank you, but two tell me why because 631 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: I value your opinion here. 632 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 4: So it's like it I get chills, like there's a 633 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,919 Speaker 4: real I feel like you're in harm's way. I feel 634 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 4: like you're going into harm's way in a big way 635 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 4: and it scares the shit out of me. And by 636 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 4: the way, and this is throughout the episodes, we're actually 637 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 4: slowly flying to the destination. That made that part Yeah, 638 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 4: I love it. 639 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: I was a coustious effort that I had to really 640 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: kind of tweak. It was little things. Yes, Well, I 641 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: was like, it feels nice slowly getting here, and it's 642 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: slow to get there in real life. Yeah, and I 643 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: kind of took an hour to get there. 644 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 4: It's like the turbulence on the plane, and like that 645 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 4: is a metaphor for your own kind of turbulence in 646 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,439 Speaker 4: your brain, you know. And I think you know, there's 647 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 4: been many conversations that I would sit on for two 648 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 4: days before making a phone call to an FBI agent. 649 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 4: We're having an uncomfortable conversation. If you're thinking that, then 650 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 4: you should do that. 651 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. 652 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, But I was literally just fearful of the word no, 653 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 4: Like not even fearful for my life. I was fearful 654 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 4: of someone saying no to me. Yeah, And it took 655 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 4: me a long time to get over that. And some 656 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 4: of that's repetition, some of that's confidence, some of that's 657 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 4: you know, like just saying stop it already, go out 658 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 4: there and knock on someone's door, right, Like it's actually 659 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 4: okay seeing the people you work with do these things 660 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 4: and not wanting to be the one that screws up. Yeah. 661 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 4: And so to me, what I'm hearing and seeing in 662 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 4: this new season is this underlying fear and this the 663 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 4: kind of unknown danger, and the audience feels it. I'm 664 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 4: telling you, they feel it, and so it has that 665 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 4: edge to it. It has I know you and I 666 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 4: know like how you will do some pretty wild things already. 667 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: I can promise you it goes there, and that This 668 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: is the hard part about trying to figure out how 669 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: to express that in a podcast is that I automatically 670 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: know that there's going to be a percentage of people 671 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: who think I'm just drumming some shit up and in 672 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: a way, I'm being poetic about it. So I am. 673 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: But and how can I express to you my genuine fear? 674 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 4: But see, the audience is so What we don't sometimes 675 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 4: realize is the audience is actually rooting for you as 676 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 4: a storyteller and as a character in your own series. 677 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 4: They're rooting for you, and they want they actually want 678 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 4: to hear all the emotions. I've worked with journalists who, 679 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 4: and I'm guilty of this too. You're there and you 680 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 4: can't help but break down and cry when someone you're 681 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,879 Speaker 4: interviewing someone, because it's just human. I think people want 682 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 4: to hear that that you are just as human as 683 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 4: the person you're talking to, and it's just you know. 684 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 4: I think during the pandemic, we had that couple years 685 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 4: stretch where we were doing kind of doing everything on 686 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 4: the phone and zooms. 687 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hated that. 688 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 4: And I said when I start Waveland and I start 689 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 4: this new thing. The last resort is you can make 690 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 4: a phone call. 691 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:38,720 Speaker 1: That's easy. 692 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 4: That's a gift, a gift, it's a gift. It's your secondary. 693 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: Start here and you land there if you got to. 694 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 4: Unless we run out of budget on something happens, you 695 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 4: must do it in person. That is my rule. And 696 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 4: I took some really experienced journalists on the road and 697 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 4: what I didn't realize to do exactly that. And they 698 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 4: were like, wait, we're going to all these places. 699 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: I was like, right, because oh yeah, that's not not 700 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: one not easy to do. Not always what happens anyways. 701 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 4: And and I think a lot of what we see 702 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 4: in print and digital is quick emails, phone calls that 703 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 4: are twenty minutes of these questions for the quote and 704 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 4: what happened. It was. I was so proud of this 705 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 4: is we would have these conversations with some pretty big, 706 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 4: big deal people and you know, my creators that I'll 707 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 4: be working with. They said, wow, you're right, you know 708 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 4: we were. We were with someone for six hours and 709 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 4: then we came back for breakfast the next morning for 710 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 4: another three Now we may only use you know, minutes, 711 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 4: three minutes, right, but like you earn trust, you hear 712 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 4: the sights and sounds of where you're going, and then 713 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 4: you just build a rapport with people. And you know, 714 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 4: one of my other rules, and kind of because I've 715 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 4: done tons of interviews, is and what's so great about 716 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 4: audio is you put the mic on and after about 717 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 4: fifty minutes it melts away. And unlike being filmed, there 718 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 4: is a comfort level. Will you forget that that's there? 719 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 4: It's there? And so I have learned that people, although 720 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,320 Speaker 4: they may be hesitant, they may seem resistant, they actually 721 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 4: want to tell you their truth. And the problem is 722 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,479 Speaker 4: no one ever asked them. 723 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: The thing is do you want to listen? 724 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 4: Yeah? 725 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: You like, do you genuinely want to listen? 726 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 4: Do you want to listen? And do you want to 727 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 4: ask them a question that no one's ever asked them? Right? 728 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: And so I over you abing to tell them things 729 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: that you're asking them about too exactly. 730 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:44,399 Speaker 4: So I obsessively prepare. I come up with my list 731 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 4: of questions, I reorder them, and then I throw them 732 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 4: in the trash and I memorize them and then it's 733 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 4: just a fluid conversation and you ask that question, and 734 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 4: there's that moment I see it. I spent eighteen months 735 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 4: with former KGB agent Jack Barski, and I sat with 736 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 4: him for three or four hours at a time at 737 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 4: his house during the pandemic, in one little, tiny room 738 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 4: like this, and I asked him questions. Maybe I would 739 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 4: be fearful of some of these questions because I'm kind 740 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 4: of getting in there. And you could just see the relief, 741 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 4: like the burden come off of him. Yeah, he's ready 742 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 4: to talk. Probably it's cathartic. No one's ever asked me this, 743 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 4: because we're all kind of narcissistic. We only care about ourselves. 744 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 4: We're so busy with our own lives. The stuff we 745 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 4: talk about with each other is fairly superficial. When you 746 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 4: ask a deep question, it's it's meaningful. And he came 747 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 4: back and he said, you know, I've told you things 748 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 4: that not even my wife knows. I'm like, really, Now 749 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 4: I got to kill you. Yeah, now I got to 750 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 4: kill you. And I just over and over again, you've 751 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 4: got to have again, going back to fear. Yeah, you're 752 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 4: gonna have some tough conversations. You're gonna have some amazing conversations. 753 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 4: You just gotta you gotta have some stones to be 754 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 4: able to just be brave and ask the question, and 755 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 4: you might actually be surprised by the answers you got. 756 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: Wasn't it funny that almost every single time that you 757 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: were super anxious and fearful of an interview, nine times 758 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: out of ten it was just your own anxiety in 759 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: the way. 760 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 4: You actually taught me something that I repeat over and over. 761 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 4: I don't know if you realize this or not. Okay, 762 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:33,359 Speaker 4: the art of the awkward silence. You know what I'm 763 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 4: talking about. I do that, y what's that mean to you? 764 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: What's funny about it is that I never intentionally did 765 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: the I learned that on accident. There were times where 766 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: I was interviewing somebody and I was obviously very concerned 767 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: about how this was being perceived by them, and that 768 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: we felt comfortable and I wasn't coming across as weird 769 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 1: or too much or overbearing or invasive, and I would 770 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,919 Speaker 1: just be in the moment so much and I would 771 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 1: blank and I would sit there. 772 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 4: I've done that too, and then what's my next question? 773 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: And I'm dying inside is five seconds of silence and 774 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: they go. But also and I'm like, oh my god, 775 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: it's like that moment of silence. They felt it too, 776 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: They felt it worse than I did, right, and it 777 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: makes you kind of rethink it. If you were to 778 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: do it to me, it would work on me too. 779 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,240 Speaker 1: It's like, because you want people to understand what you're saying. 780 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,879 Speaker 1: And I realized that, Hey, if you just sit back 781 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: and listen, then you're gonna you can let things happen. 782 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: Then your job becomes not it becomes steering it right, 783 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: keeping them on that thought, which is hard to do 784 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: on anything you're thinking about. If it's some traumatic thing 785 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 1: or some complicated, sad story, then it's hard to go 786 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: back and pick it those things. And so your job 787 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,839 Speaker 1: as an interviewer there, I feel like, is to make 788 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: them feel as comfortable as possible and let them take 789 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: the stage so they feel like empowered by it, and 790 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: then give them that guidance and that like you would 791 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: want if you got off topic or yeah, exactly, you're right, 792 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: and like just keep it going so you. 793 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 4: You can't get it out, you can't show up and 794 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 4: like I gotta get these three things. 795 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: No, because it works that way. 796 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 4: It doesn't work that way. 797 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 1: You never get those things that you're looking for, like 798 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: that and that if that's if you wanted boom boom boom, 799 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna get something, but it's never gonna be what 800 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: you wanted it to be. 801 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you yeah, you you almost so. Again going 802 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 4: back to Jack Barsky and talking to him, those interviews 803 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 4: would be three and four hours at a time, like 804 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 4: I was mentioning, and at the end he's like, oh 805 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 4: my god, I'm exhausted. Yeah, and I'm exhausted too. And 806 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 4: you work yourself to the point of exhaustion because you 807 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 4: want to hear everything about their lives and you you 808 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 4: may have gotten those couple things, but you've opened up 809 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 4: another ten things along the way that you never expected, 810 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 4: and so you have to plan for that version of. 811 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: K Yeah, you got to allow for that to exist. 812 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: You're coming into this story looking at it from all 813 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,399 Speaker 1: the information you have right now, and you can build 814 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: that in your head as many times as you want. 815 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 1: But when you start gathering that information and talking to 816 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: the real people in this story, in this case, it changes. 817 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: It becomes what it really is, and there are a 818 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,320 Speaker 1: million different facets of it that you never could have anticipated. 819 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: That is now up to you to include or mold 820 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: into what your vision of what you thought this thing was, 821 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: and that's it becomes a living, breathing thing in that way. 822 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: But you have to allow that to happen. You go 823 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: in their tunnel vision. You're gonna stay in the tunnel 824 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: forever and it's going to be the same old thing 825 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: everyone else does. 826 00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 4: And if you only have those three questions that you're 827 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 4: trying to get, you're gonna have a real awkward silence 828 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,359 Speaker 4: when you don't know where to go next. Yeah, and 829 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 4: you're like, Okay, thank you. It's like you just left 830 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 4: a bunch of stuff on the table. 831 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: It's funny. For as much as I prep sometimes for 832 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 1: an interview, I always abort the questions. 833 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 834 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: I always just I'm like, it's like it's like if 835 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: I go on stage, ever, I'm like, at a certain point, 836 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: I have to just do it. I can't be trying 837 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: to recite what I memorized almost I have to improvise 838 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: it to a degree, feel the pressure of it, and 839 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 1: like and harness that use that to do what I 840 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: couldn't think of before. And when I was trying to 841 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,280 Speaker 1: write those questions down. 842 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 4: It's your like, to me, your preparation is your obsession, 843 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 4: So you don't just like before I do anything. 844 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: Or your own self confidence that you're you do have 845 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: things back there in your brain. Yeah, I know something. 846 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 4: I'm thinking of questions like all the time. Yeah, and 847 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 4: I'm like what about this? What about that? Exactly? On 848 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 4: and on. So you've you've done your internal preparation. I 849 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,319 Speaker 4: do it on my morning runs. It's my office hours, right, 850 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 4: I'm thinking about these things creatively or whatever, and so 851 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,239 Speaker 4: you just you don't let it go. It's not just 852 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 4: seeing a piece of paper and like, oh okay, here 853 00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 4: we go. Here's the five questions. Let me ask you, 854 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 4: why do you think people talk to you to me? Yeah? 855 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 1: Specifically? 856 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. 857 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 1: Maybe there's something about me that is the only way 858 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: I can answer that as objectively as I possibly could 859 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:46,879 Speaker 1: is try to imagine myself interviewing me. I think I'd 860 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,839 Speaker 1: have the first thought of what's that with this guy? 861 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:50,799 Speaker 4: Right? 862 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:57,080 Speaker 1: I like not necessarily a negative connotation there, but maybe 863 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,040 Speaker 1: sometimes like what's that with this guy? And so I 864 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:01,880 Speaker 1: kind of I think for a lot of people that 865 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: might be a thing for a moment, and then they 866 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,200 Speaker 1: might be surprised by how down to earth I'm being 867 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 1: about this or how much I'm trying to relate to 868 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: you on a human level with my own life experiences, 869 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 1: and then that becomes this shift where you're like, oh wow, 870 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,440 Speaker 1: maybe I can trust you, and I just try to 871 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: live up to that. And also, I think it's just 872 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: as simple as not being afraid to ask questions. There 873 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,280 Speaker 1: really isn't a question that I wouldn't ask somebody unless 874 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 1: it was just completely offensive, in which I would never 875 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,279 Speaker 1: ask something like that, or i'd try not to write. 876 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 4: But I'm not. 877 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: Ever too afraid to ask how do you feel about that? 878 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,239 Speaker 1: And I'm asking because I actually am thinking that I'm curious. 879 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,480 Speaker 1: And if I'm asking you like how do you feel 880 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,759 Speaker 1: about that? Obviously I'm signing myself up for you to say, well, 881 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? 882 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 4: Right? 883 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 1: And I know that subconsciously some I'm prepared to do that. 884 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,240 Speaker 4: So what about the people that have something to hide? 885 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,160 Speaker 4: Why do they talk to you? Like? 886 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: How do I say this without sounding ridiculous? 887 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:16,520 Speaker 4: Here? 888 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,040 Speaker 1: I think I would be afraid of myself if I 889 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,319 Speaker 1: was being asked questions and I had a secret, because 890 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: I would feel like that person's not going to give 891 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 1: it up. I don't know what links they would go 892 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: to to get this information. And I got to be 893 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: on my toes, and I know if I don't participate 894 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: at a certain point or whatever, that I'm going to 895 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: send red flags up to him and make my situation 896 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: a whole lot worse. And so I am consciously thinking 897 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,880 Speaker 1: about that in a lot of a lot of scenarios, 898 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: and like, I feel like there's no one If someone's 899 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,000 Speaker 1: saying no, they don't want to talk to me, it 900 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 1: better be a good damn reason, because I'm not trying 901 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: to talk to people who I don't genuinely in my 902 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: heart feel like have something to say. I'm not trying 903 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: to like just dig up random soundbites for my story. 904 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,840 Speaker 1: I at my core believe you're a big part of 905 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 1: this in whatever way that is good or bad, and 906 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: there shouldn't be a reason for you to say no 907 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,400 Speaker 1: unless you're just uncomfortable. And I'm willing to talk to 908 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: you about that. Yeah, I'm going to hear you out, 909 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: and maybe we decide that we don't do this, but 910 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,600 Speaker 1: you at least can tell me that and that's okay, 911 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: and we can shake hands and we're we're good. If 912 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,600 Speaker 1: you don't do that and you cannot connect to me 913 00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: on that level, when I really try and put myself 914 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,240 Speaker 1: out there in some vulnerable way. A lot of times 915 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,200 Speaker 1: the only people who are doing that are the people 916 00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: who have secrets, right, And that sticks out like a 917 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,319 Speaker 1: sore thumb. And I mean this season, I made a 918 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: conscious decision to approach this suspect differently than I have 919 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: anybody else in my entire career, because I weighed the 920 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:25,080 Speaker 1: outcomes and I decided to myself that if I go 921 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,400 Speaker 1: this way, I think I know what the result is 922 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: going to be. Is that why we came this far? 923 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 1: Is that why we make these shows? Is that why 924 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,880 Speaker 1: the family wanted me to make a story on this? 925 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: Is just to go point somebody out right, or do 926 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:46,200 Speaker 1: I take it a step further within the legal within 927 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:51,320 Speaker 1: my legal bounds, to do something out of the box 928 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: and scary with the sole purpose of trying to find 929 00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 1: out the truth. And that was that was the fucking 930 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,319 Speaker 1: scariest thing I've done this whole time, because it was 931 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,440 Speaker 1: kind of like a moral dilemma for a minute that 932 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,360 Speaker 1: I've ultimately sorted in not that long, because I it 933 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:15,719 Speaker 1: just made me look in the mirrors of what do 934 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 1: you value? Why are you doing this? And it's it 935 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,320 Speaker 1: goes back to why I did it in the first place. 936 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm not just doing it to tell a story. If 937 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm investigating something, I'm really trying to investigate it. And 938 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I'm pissed that season two in season 939 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:37,280 Speaker 1: three cases aren't solved. 940 00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 4: That fucking pisses me off. Man. 941 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: Now, I've never stopped investigating them. I have had I've 942 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: flown to Denver three or four times now in the 943 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 1: past year, and I've shared with them a lot of information, 944 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,400 Speaker 1: and there is active investigations going on in these cases. 945 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,960 Speaker 1: But I look at that and said and think, what 946 00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,560 Speaker 1: could I have done differently? Right? And the only thing 947 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,720 Speaker 1: I can control is putting myself out of my comfort 948 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 1: zone a little bit more and just believing that it's 949 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: gonna be okay, even if that is in a certain 950 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,399 Speaker 1: moment not necessarily the case. 951 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 4: We can feel the fear, I mean the audience fear. 952 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,640 Speaker 4: Not that you're afraid, but we're afraid for you. This 953 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,759 Speaker 4: confrontation is a big I mean, you've shared some of 954 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,920 Speaker 4: the stuff that the rest of the universe is going 955 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 4: to hear pretty soon. It's chilling. 956 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:37,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's. 957 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,720 Speaker 4: Not only chilling as a confrontation in and of itself. 958 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,600 Speaker 4: But again, in the back of your brain, again, we're 959 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:48,000 Speaker 4: rooting for you, we're scared for you, and we don't 960 00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 4: know what the outcome is. We don't because and in 961 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 4: that moment, I don't either, And. 962 00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,280 Speaker 1: You're trying to weigh those things. What are the options? 963 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,839 Speaker 1: I always think out or try to think out every possibility. 964 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,280 Speaker 1: What could What are the options here? And I'm like, Okay, 965 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,160 Speaker 1: going this way is my is my best option. I 966 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,239 Speaker 1: could yield the most results this way. And if I'm 967 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:16,000 Speaker 1: gonna go this way, I'm not gonna half ass this way. 968 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,799 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna one foot in, one foot out. And 969 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 1: so I really truly embodied a character and created an 970 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:36,520 Speaker 1: entire trap for this individual. And you know, I hope 971 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:37,680 Speaker 1: this becomes a conversation. 972 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 4: Do you think you did the right thing? 973 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? 974 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,680 Speaker 4: I want to hear the argument to why I didn't. 975 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,920 Speaker 1: I think that if you're willing to say that, not 976 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,200 Speaker 1: on some Instagram comment, not in some review or some 977 00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,280 Speaker 1: phantom Reddit account, if you really think that I didn't 978 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: do the right thing, I want to have a conversation 979 00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:05,279 Speaker 1: about that. I'm curious as to why you think that. 980 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,319 Speaker 1: And the only thing I can think of is that 981 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:14,240 Speaker 1: you are upset that I tricked this person. Law enforcement 982 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:19,640 Speaker 1: does that all the time. Law enforcement isn't involved in 983 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: this case. We are, I am, I'm not breaking the law. 984 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 4: Well, it's not like you didn't have a So what 985 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 4: I also love is you actually put some of that 986 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,960 Speaker 4: debate of what you should do, what's going on in 987 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,120 Speaker 4: your mind. It wasn't just like let's play games, let's 988 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,200 Speaker 4: play tricks, let's do whatever, like you actually have the 989 00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 4: moral discussion about what we should what what's the what 990 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,280 Speaker 4: should we be doing? How should we be doing it? 991 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 4: Is everyone going to be safe? Like? What's the right? 992 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,040 Speaker 4: Like that? That was a discussion that you you kind 993 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 4: of included in the in the in the podcast, if you. 994 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,440 Speaker 1: Will, because if you asked me if I think I 995 00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,680 Speaker 1: did the right thing to me, it goes immediately to 996 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,840 Speaker 1: the conversation of okay, well, if we're going to do that, 997 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 1: let's zoom out even further. Right, let's look at all 998 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: the other true crime podcasts. Are they doing the right thing? 999 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 1: Is just covering it on its surface enough? Either is 1000 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,560 Speaker 1: it good enough so it's like you know, or is 1001 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:27,360 Speaker 1: my attempt in generating something new worth it? Or or 1002 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 1: what's the point of any of this stuff if it's 1003 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,840 Speaker 1: just purely for your entertainment. 1004 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,160 Speaker 4: And I think what people another kind of even more 1005 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,840 Speaker 4: extension that you just said about season two and season 1006 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,200 Speaker 4: three of Us and vanished and that not being solved 1007 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,840 Speaker 4: and how that eats at you and that's still important 1008 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 4: and you're invested, is people don't. I don't. I don't 1009 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,120 Speaker 4: think they realize the connections that we actually make with 1010 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 4: people during these series. So I've got the father of 1011 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 4: Skylar Nice. His name is Dave, NIE's sweetest guy in 1012 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,000 Speaker 4: the world. His daughter was murdered. In our new podcast 1013 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 4: three Yep, which is out now, Yep, it's out now. 1014 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,040 Speaker 4: We've got the first it's three three teenage girls go 1015 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 4: into the woods and only to come out, and it's 1016 00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,200 Speaker 4: this kind of gothic tale of the triangle of three 1017 00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:20,040 Speaker 4: teenagers and girls and what that means. But Dave calls me, yeah, 1018 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,120 Speaker 4: and he texts me, and I get I have these 1019 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 4: these long standing relationships YEP with the people. 1020 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 1: And you do like and that's there's only so many 1021 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,920 Speaker 1: people I know, my peers, and there's there's a lot 1022 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: of them who are this deep with it where they 1023 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:43,040 Speaker 1: have relationships where you're getting a text from these people. 1024 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,120 Speaker 1: You didn't just go there one time and then never 1025 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,040 Speaker 1: saw you again. Yeah, that happens a lot, it does. 1026 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,440 Speaker 1: It's different when you're not doing that and it's there. 1027 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,120 Speaker 4: You feel a responsibility, don't you going out to Hawaiian 1028 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 4: you know, a wrongfully convicted man that was in prison 1029 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,800 Speaker 4: for over twenty years. He's out and that feels wonderful. 1030 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,760 Speaker 4: But I'm getting, you know, text at four in the 1031 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,040 Speaker 4: morning his time, ten am my time. He's like, I 1032 01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,960 Speaker 4: can't sleep. I've got everything wrong with me because I'm 1033 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,720 Speaker 4: still so shaken by this world. And I'm his counsel, right, 1034 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:17,120 Speaker 4: I'm the first person, or just one of a handful 1035 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,920 Speaker 4: of people that actually listened to this man for the 1036 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 4: first time in many, many years. And I'm advocating on 1037 01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,160 Speaker 4: his behalf. And so that pattern repeats itself over and 1038 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,320 Speaker 4: over again. And so sometimes you get the that you get, 1039 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,200 Speaker 4: you know again, a father who's lost his daughter. There's 1040 01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,680 Speaker 4: nothing worse than that, nothing worse than that. And then 1041 01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,120 Speaker 4: you get you know, then you get Wayne Williams calling 1042 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,800 Speaker 4: from prison. And by the way, I don't know if 1043 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,120 Speaker 4: the audience knows this, Yeah, but you have to block them. 1044 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:46,040 Speaker 1: I block him. 1045 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,800 Speaker 4: You have to show me on your phone how many 1046 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:53,280 Speaker 4: times he called you, like overnight or you know, it 1047 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,080 Speaker 4: would be like thirty eight times in a row trying 1048 01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 4: to reach it. You had to block Wayne Williams. 1049 01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:01,360 Speaker 1: I had to block Wayne Williams from prison on multiple numbers, 1050 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 1: multiple cell phones, landlines. Once I had trapped him, like 1051 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,440 Speaker 1: once I had caught him in a lie, everything shifted 1052 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 1: and he went off trying to take me back the 1053 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:24,000 Speaker 1: other way. And I was so exhausted of hearing his nonsense. Man. 1054 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,640 Speaker 1: And when people ask me, do you think he did it? Hell, yeah, 1055 01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:29,080 Speaker 1: he did it. 1056 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:30,040 Speaker 4: I feel the same line. 1057 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:31,640 Speaker 1: Did he do all of them? Know, that's part of 1058 01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:36,480 Speaker 1: what's wrong here, But that guy is a child murderer. 1059 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,920 Speaker 4: We went you remember after the show wrapped, we went 1060 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,440 Speaker 4: into that. It's like the Atlanta Police Department's. 1061 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,280 Speaker 1: Archives all so surreal, man. 1062 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,160 Speaker 4: It was so like the Table after table Fox after 1063 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,360 Speaker 4: it was probably like forty fifty boxes. 1064 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:50,160 Speaker 1: It was insane. 1065 01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:53,960 Speaker 4: We found Wayne Williams's original license, just like seeing this 1066 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:58,560 Speaker 4: stuff was like photo lineups. It was unfortunately all the 1067 01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,480 Speaker 4: photos from the scenes that we had visited, you know, 1068 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,400 Speaker 4: behind the gas station and where the old school used 1069 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,760 Speaker 4: to be and kind of all those spots. It was 1070 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 4: heartbreaking and it actually hit different for me when I 1071 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,560 Speaker 4: saw we've been talking about this, none of the kind 1072 01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,240 Speaker 4: of TV archival footage that we had pulled that ever, 1073 01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:22,240 Speaker 4: of course, showed a dead child, but then we saw 1074 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:26,360 Speaker 4: it in person in an envelope, and it just was like, whoa, 1075 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,760 Speaker 4: this is really bad and really gruesome, and we have 1076 01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,880 Speaker 4: to remember how gruesome it was. That murder is not 1077 01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,840 Speaker 4: a act of kindness at all. It is a the. 1078 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:42,440 Speaker 1: Bodies from what's his name, the guy who found the hairs, 1079 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:49,040 Speaker 1: We drove to his house, right, and he showed us 1080 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,040 Speaker 1: the bodies and showed us the hairs on the bodies 1081 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:58,120 Speaker 1: at the scene, and that is that was absolutely horrific. 1082 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,800 Speaker 1: Barry Peterson Larry Peterson. 1083 01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:11,840 Speaker 4: Throwback. Yeah. In that police department this place, they also 1084 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,320 Speaker 4: had a back room of other evidence, and I remember 1085 01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,200 Speaker 4: them opening the door and there's like lots of bicycles 1086 01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,400 Speaker 4: and kind of bigger things that they had they have 1087 01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:21,360 Speaker 4: to keep, they have to store. 1088 01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,680 Speaker 1: It's different than big evidence items, right, yeah. 1089 01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 4: Bigger than paper like file in boxes, licenses, objects I remember, sorry. 1090 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:32,840 Speaker 4: In the in the boxes was they had some KKK 1091 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,680 Speaker 4: newspapers they were still on that theme, and that kind 1092 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,960 Speaker 4: of proved that they were looking at that. But I 1093 01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:42,320 Speaker 4: remember in the box where these two big they look 1094 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:48,920 Speaker 4: like film reels, and it still eats at me to 1095 01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:55,200 Speaker 4: this day. When Wayne's trial was happening, the media so 1096 01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:58,920 Speaker 4: it wasn't recorded on video, all the news reporters were 1097 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 4: in another room on close circuit television so they could 1098 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,800 Speaker 4: watch without being in the room because it was packed. Yeah, 1099 01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 4: but the legendary kind of Wayne getting angry and saying, 1100 01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,200 Speaker 4: you know, you're kind of throwing a temper. Yeah, you 1101 01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,680 Speaker 4: wouldn't know it unless you were sitting in there. Yeah. 1102 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:19,240 Speaker 4: I believe that that that that that trial was actually taped. 1103 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:22,640 Speaker 4: And then those were the tapes and so this big 1104 01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:26,160 Speaker 4: real table then it's still there and I actually asked 1105 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,000 Speaker 4: if we could take them out, and they said, unless 1106 01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:30,960 Speaker 4: you can get one of those players here and we 1107 01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,440 Speaker 4: agree to do it, we can't let you players like 1108 01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,400 Speaker 4: you know, the old school like player of audio, like 1109 01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 4: a big tape machine that. 1110 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:40,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't find that we need to get it there. 1111 01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:41,960 Speaker 4: We'd have to get it there. 1112 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 1: To do that, it would be an entire mission. 1113 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,840 Speaker 4: Right and then and then transferring it to digital and 1114 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,200 Speaker 4: we but like that's that's that's audio, right, Like no 1115 01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,240 Speaker 4: one ever thought of this being used from eighty two, 1116 01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:56,120 Speaker 4: eighty three whatever. 1117 01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,120 Speaker 1: But it also the fact that it's still there, is 1118 01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,439 Speaker 1: still there, and it's kind of lynchpin. If you're talking 1119 01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:05,000 Speaker 1: about if you're puzzled by Wayne Williams character and if 1120 01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:09,840 Speaker 1: he's capable, if you've fallen for his con here, his 1121 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:18,280 Speaker 1: like psychopathic ways, right, and his narcissistic tricks, then witnessing 1122 01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:23,080 Speaker 1: that would give you a glimpse potentially into the monster within. 1123 01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:25,680 Speaker 1: I think that's what it did for a lot of people. 1124 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:30,000 Speaker 1: And to hear that I think would be for a 1125 01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:35,200 Speaker 1: lot of people some sort of closure or understanding that. Yeah, 1126 01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:38,320 Speaker 1: for as much for as many weird things as there 1127 01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,280 Speaker 1: are here, this guy still did this well. 1128 01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:45,320 Speaker 4: And to shift the conversation a little bit, it also 1129 01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 4: brings up something that I know you and I get 1130 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:52,760 Speaker 4: frustrated with Sean Kaipe, who I've done multiple shows. Yeah, 1131 01:05:52,800 --> 01:06:01,960 Speaker 4: like you know our previous mayor you know, there is 1132 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,600 Speaker 4: a look at the DNA around around Wayne Williams and 1133 01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,600 Speaker 4: the child murders. It's been what like four or five 1134 01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:12,920 Speaker 4: years now, so the GBI, which is kind of the 1135 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,320 Speaker 4: local FBI Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 1136 01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:16,760 Speaker 1: I ever heard of him? 1137 01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:21,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, Like, they won't tell you anything. They're working 1138 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,160 Speaker 4: on it. They have even you know. 1139 01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:24,400 Speaker 1: They got it right, they'll solve it. 1140 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,800 Speaker 4: Well, it's just we don't know what's going on, and 1141 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,440 Speaker 4: so we're able to poke around the corners to get 1142 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,040 Speaker 4: to things that the public wants to find out about. 1143 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:37,160 Speaker 4: Where is that line, like our need to know the truth? 1144 01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,280 Speaker 4: How is that weighed against? In your opinion? Weighed against 1145 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:48,000 Speaker 4: the desire need to keep things private in an open investigation, 1146 01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:51,440 Speaker 4: if you will, Because it's really frustrating when people can 1147 01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,160 Speaker 4: can up and they and they won't talk. And we've 1148 01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,240 Speaker 4: got Payne and Jason and all these Sean and all 1149 01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 4: these people rooting aro for the truth and we think 1150 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,520 Speaker 4: we're pretty good at it and we're really good sleuths. 1151 01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:09,760 Speaker 4: How do we deal with that? Because yeah, some within 1152 01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,960 Speaker 4: like the GBI are like, yeah, all right, okay, this 1153 01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:14,640 Speaker 4: is great, and the other half was like, do not 1154 01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,480 Speaker 4: step in my territory. This is ours. You need to 1155 01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,240 Speaker 4: stay away. We hear it, you know, you hear it 1156 01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:21,280 Speaker 4: over and over all the time. 1157 01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,000 Speaker 1: I feel like, if enough time has gone by if 1158 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:30,400 Speaker 1: enough time is transpired and this case isn't solved, then 1159 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:32,600 Speaker 1: for whatever reason that is the case, it doesn't matter 1160 01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,920 Speaker 1: why that is. For whatever reason it's the case, you 1161 01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:40,640 Speaker 1: are now subject to an investigation of your investigation. I 1162 01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:46,280 Speaker 1: would subject myself to that same philosophy, or what's the 1163 01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:50,880 Speaker 1: point of journalism In the first place? You were saying 1164 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,640 Speaker 1: that you're looking for big stories to tell, and you 1165 01:07:54,720 --> 01:08:00,400 Speaker 1: had this whole sort of evaluation of big audience, small audience, 1166 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:06,240 Speaker 1: big story, small story. I feel like what happens a 1167 01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,160 Speaker 1: lot of times in the creative business because there's a 1168 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:13,680 Speaker 1: business part of this, and there are systems with a business, 1169 01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:19,720 Speaker 1: and there are structures, and I feel like sometimes what 1170 01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:24,680 Speaker 1: I like to do is maybe this story to me 1171 01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,120 Speaker 1: is a big story. That's why I'm interested in it, right, 1172 01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:31,800 Speaker 1: But maybe I know that it may not feel like 1173 01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:32,760 Speaker 1: that to everyone else. 1174 01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:38,920 Speaker 4: How do I create a big audience for this story. 1175 01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:45,320 Speaker 1: How do I get a big audience interested in what 1176 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,640 Speaker 1: I know they may not be unless I did it 1177 01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:54,920 Speaker 1: the right way or something. The biggest hurdle in the 1178 01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,920 Speaker 1: creative process, if you're in the creative business, is that 1179 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:05,519 Speaker 1: it's human instinct to repeat what you just did. And 1180 01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,920 Speaker 1: I've had a unique experience with this because it's been 1181 01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:14,440 Speaker 1: almost every time I've made a podcast, I've been told 1182 01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:19,759 Speaker 1: I can't do that radio rental, That doesn't make any sense, 1183 01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:21,920 Speaker 1: That's not how you do an anthology show? Why is 1184 01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,600 Speaker 1: it called that? And I'm like, that's the point. I 1185 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,800 Speaker 1: want it because because it made you say, what is this? 1186 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,439 Speaker 1: I could have been wrong, could have not worked? High strange? 1187 01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:33,439 Speaker 1: Why are you doing UFOs? 1188 01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:35,559 Speaker 4: Now? Were you a conspiracy theorist? No? 1189 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:36,240 Speaker 1: No, that's the point. 1190 01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,000 Speaker 4: Well, you can't be curious what? Yeah, it's yeah, wait, 1191 01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:42,080 Speaker 4: everyone else is talking about it. You can't. 1192 01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:44,880 Speaker 1: You don't think, and don't think that. I didn't forget that. 1193 01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,120 Speaker 1: I was told that I shouldn't and couldn't make a 1194 01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:52,200 Speaker 1: true crime podcast to begin with. I never forgot that. 1195 01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,519 Speaker 1: I remembered that. I still remember that, and I think 1196 01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,479 Speaker 1: it's important for me to remember that as a creator 1197 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:02,799 Speaker 1: because it tells me that it's okay to go against 1198 01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:09,040 Speaker 1: the grain. It's but it's it's gonna be uncomfortable, but 1199 01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:13,880 Speaker 1: everyone's gonna catch up once it starts working, and they'll 1200 01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,160 Speaker 1: never remember that because every time it feels like a 1201 01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,960 Speaker 1: new foreign thing, you want to do what you Okay, 1202 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:23,120 Speaker 1: I broke the mold on this and it's some new 1203 01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:25,760 Speaker 1: thing and that worked. Now we're just doing that now, No, 1204 01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:29,240 Speaker 1: we're not. We're doing the next thing. And like it's 1205 01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:34,599 Speaker 1: that is exhausting to try to systemize, but I think 1206 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,880 Speaker 1: it's what you have to hold on to to a 1207 01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:44,439 Speaker 1: degree as a creative person engineering this thing. That's That's 1208 01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:48,920 Speaker 1: how the most special content has ever been made. It's 1209 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:55,120 Speaker 1: because it was the outlier. It did something different, and 1210 01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:59,120 Speaker 1: that meant that there that the creator was out on 1211 01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:03,320 Speaker 1: a limb. They felt like this ship couldn't there's no 1212 01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:08,639 Speaker 1: blueprint for this shit working. Everyone wants the whole runway 1213 01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:11,639 Speaker 1: for the thing, right, but that's not going to make 1214 01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:14,080 Speaker 1: stuff that lasts for one hundred years. 1215 01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:16,240 Speaker 4: I don't think, Yeah, what do you mean two thousand 1216 01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,600 Speaker 4: and one a Space Odyssey? What do you mean the 1217 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:23,000 Speaker 4: shot right right? Well, that sounds weird. Sounds awesome though, Yeah, 1218 01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:25,120 Speaker 4: but y awesome, But like, who's going to go see that? 1219 01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:29,680 Speaker 4: You know, Star Star Wars George Lucas, Like, what is 1220 01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,439 Speaker 4: this a space opera? What the hell is that? I 1221 01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:32,200 Speaker 4: forget that. 1222 01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:36,160 Speaker 1: At one point in time, some of the greatest works 1223 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:42,880 Speaker 1: in history were some foreign idea that people probably shot 1224 01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:46,679 Speaker 1: down because there was no proof that this would work. 1225 01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:50,599 Speaker 1: People want proof that it would work. And the creative industry, 1226 01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:55,320 Speaker 1: that usually is some other comparison to another body of 1227 01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:59,120 Speaker 1: work that succeeded, and you're modeling it after how datada? 1228 01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:03,439 Speaker 1: Because you know that people like that. Why I would 1229 01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,439 Speaker 1: rather spend my I'd really spend time in my brain 1230 01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,840 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how I can get more people 1231 01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:15,639 Speaker 1: to like something that they may not innately like. Maybe 1232 01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,559 Speaker 1: I didn't innately like it either, and now I do. 1233 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,080 Speaker 1: And that way that I got into it is going 1234 01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:23,120 Speaker 1: to be the foundation for how I want to get 1235 01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:26,080 Speaker 1: you into this too. And I'm really kind of communicating 1236 01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:28,080 Speaker 1: with you, like, hey, let me show you a door 1237 01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:32,120 Speaker 1: here hear me out thirty seconds right, got you in 1238 01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:36,960 Speaker 1: the first of first thirty of the podcasts. Can I 1239 01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,360 Speaker 1: level with you? Can I get you in there the 1240 01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:43,200 Speaker 1: same way I was dubious too, And I'll get and like, 1241 01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,400 Speaker 1: I'll give it to you, but come here. 1242 01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:45,759 Speaker 4: For a second. 1243 01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,320 Speaker 1: I got to show you something right, and I think 1244 01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,160 Speaker 1: that you can't lose sight of that. And it's easy 1245 01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,920 Speaker 1: to do that because you don't want to fail. 1246 01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:00,320 Speaker 4: And it's uncomfortable and it's weird and and it is 1247 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:04,160 Speaker 4: it's hard to even explain. Uh it is I call 1248 01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,000 Speaker 4: I kind of have tried to put this in a 1249 01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:08,840 Speaker 4: box sometimes and explain. 1250 01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:11,760 Speaker 1: How we You see me do this shit too? Oh 1251 01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,160 Speaker 1: you've seen I've also seen you, which is also like 1252 01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:18,559 Speaker 1: why I think we have a great relationships. I've seen 1253 01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:23,160 Speaker 1: you question what I've been doing and been like all right, 1254 01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:28,439 Speaker 1: like I don't know, and then it will actualize and 1255 01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 1: you'll go, oh, I get it now, and then you 1256 01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:33,960 Speaker 1: you do that now too, and I'm like, oh wow, 1257 01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,960 Speaker 1: for me, it's validating too, because I'm like, oh, like, 1258 01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:40,840 Speaker 1: we're all growing here. Well, remember what I'm hold learning 1259 01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:42,439 Speaker 1: from each other. I'm learning for you too, Right. 1260 01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:44,360 Speaker 4: Remember what I said, I'm working on eight series at 1261 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:45,160 Speaker 4: the same time. 1262 01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,120 Speaker 1: Which is I mean, this sounds like he's being for 1263 01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:47,639 Speaker 1: real guys. 1264 01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,519 Speaker 4: This is yeah, there's like there's eight creative processes, right, 1265 01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:55,320 Speaker 4: and different hosted and journalists. So some are documentary filmmakers, 1266 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,599 Speaker 4: some are journalists, some are writers. Many have never done 1267 01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:03,400 Speaker 4: this before, yep. Some of these are very personal biographic stories. 1268 01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,800 Speaker 1: Wait mean, guest, do they say, but I'm not a podcaster? 1269 01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:11,799 Speaker 4: Right? Like they all have this. So the biggest mistake 1270 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:15,400 Speaker 4: I could make is say this is how, this is 1271 01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,200 Speaker 4: how you make a podcast. So I am like I am. 1272 01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,360 Speaker 4: How I describe it to everyone is I'm very involved. 1273 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,720 Speaker 4: I can be very micro in the process of assisting 1274 01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:30,000 Speaker 4: on many levels. As you know, me as not the 1275 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,120 Speaker 4: the corporate suit, but I'm the I'm the I can 1276 01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 4: edit audio, I can. 1277 01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:35,360 Speaker 1: Do the interview now to the minutia. 1278 01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:39,080 Speaker 4: I can do every part of this except host. You 1279 01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,200 Speaker 4: can do that too, Now I can't. I'm terrible. We 1280 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,679 Speaker 4: can't be good at all things. I will never host 1281 01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:44,719 Speaker 4: another series again. 1282 01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:45,360 Speaker 1: You will. 1283 01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:48,840 Speaker 4: I will not do it anyway. I part of this 1284 01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:55,479 Speaker 4: is understanding that they know I'm there for them, that 1285 01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,000 Speaker 4: I'm going to be very involved, but that I'm going 1286 01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:00,400 Speaker 4: to give them the oxygen in the space to do 1287 01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:04,040 Speaker 4: it their way. Is that what you crave to? I 1288 01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:05,120 Speaker 4: love it? I love it. 1289 01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,800 Speaker 1: Are you giving to them what you desire to? 1290 01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:11,320 Speaker 4: Yes? Absolutely, I want what you've. 1291 01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:15,640 Speaker 1: Desired it for a long time, that you like you were. 1292 01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:18,000 Speaker 4: I don't want eight of the same thing. I want 1293 01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:22,479 Speaker 4: different things that delight me and therefore the audience and 1294 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:25,400 Speaker 4: I want them to be delighted in the experience and 1295 01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:27,599 Speaker 4: for me to be able to wrap my arms around 1296 01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,880 Speaker 4: them and say I got you, and anything you don't know, 1297 01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:33,800 Speaker 4: we will do together. That's awesome. And at the end 1298 01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:36,519 Speaker 4: of the day, I will be there, just like any 1299 01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,160 Speaker 4: of the families that I've interviewed and some of those hardships. 1300 01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:42,519 Speaker 4: I get calls all the time from people in tears 1301 01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:44,120 Speaker 4: that don't know where to go, they don't know how 1302 01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,960 Speaker 4: to do it, all the way to I've got this, 1303 01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,880 Speaker 4: Thanks for being there. This is professional, it's structured, it's whatever. 1304 01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:55,040 Speaker 4: But I just really want to respect the process of 1305 01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,040 Speaker 4: letting people do their thing and then again wrapping my 1306 01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,960 Speaker 4: arms around them. I will get in a story and 1307 01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,640 Speaker 4: edit the shit out of it and be hardcore and 1308 01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,280 Speaker 4: trying to get to the thing, but I will also 1309 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:08,519 Speaker 4: back off at the same time. And that's just it's 1310 01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,080 Speaker 4: just respect. At the end of the day, it's being 1311 01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:14,080 Speaker 4: investigation being conscious of that too. Yes, So with you, 1312 01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:19,280 Speaker 4: I mean it was you know, listen, we don't know. 1313 01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,719 Speaker 4: I felt it that it was my responsibility to deliver. Yeah, 1314 01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:23,960 Speaker 4: and I took that seriously though. 1315 01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, had I not then I would have it would 1316 01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:31,080 Speaker 1: have been a totally appropriate for you to not get 1317 01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:34,000 Speaker 1: down with that anymore. Well, and or we're learning and 1318 01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:36,960 Speaker 1: building that. Okay, this is not how I like to 1319 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:39,639 Speaker 1: do it, but maybe we're learning how to do something 1320 01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:40,519 Speaker 1: through this process. 1321 01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:43,280 Speaker 4: Actually, yeah right, And we all love this. We all 1322 01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:45,800 Speaker 4: love to be popular, we all love the spotlight on us, 1323 01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,840 Speaker 4: we all love that stuff. But I so how I 1324 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:53,599 Speaker 4: look at that is I'm okay being behind the scenes 1325 01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,360 Speaker 4: and being boosting other people up, but also kind of 1326 01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,360 Speaker 4: doing whatever I need to do to make something big awesome. 1327 01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:02,920 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, but I also really want my shit to 1328 01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,280 Speaker 4: be popular. I want a lot of people to listen 1329 01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:07,280 Speaker 4: to this. So yeah, otherwise, why are we there? It's 1330 01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:10,000 Speaker 4: a it's a it's a science project, it's an art project. 1331 01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:11,000 Speaker 4: Like it doesn't make sense. 1332 01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:15,160 Speaker 1: This is some fucking fair project or some shit, like 1333 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,640 Speaker 1: what are we doing? Or like, actually, it's funny. I 1334 01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,080 Speaker 1: saw like a TikTok of Ben Affleck recently and he 1335 01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:24,880 Speaker 1: was talking about I'm gonna butcher how he set it. 1336 01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:30,120 Speaker 1: But he was talking about fame and you know, like 1337 01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,320 Speaker 1: a big audience and someone something like that, and he 1338 01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:39,639 Speaker 1: was basically saying, it's not that he craves the attention. 1339 01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:47,800 Speaker 1: He's performing, he's creating something and he wants the most 1340 01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:52,800 Speaker 1: amount of people to experience this. And it's like, I 1341 01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:57,880 Speaker 1: get that someone may not understand that, but as a creator, 1342 01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,800 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us do. And that's how 1343 01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:02,519 Speaker 1: I'm wired. 1344 01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're not a sellout for doing that either. 1345 01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:06,840 Speaker 1: I mean no, no, It's like I want this thing 1346 01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:09,720 Speaker 1: to be as big as possible because it's I think 1347 01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:14,000 Speaker 1: it's important, and this is my craft and so doing 1348 01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,320 Speaker 1: that on the grandest scale involves that at the end 1349 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:18,439 Speaker 1: of the day in some way, shape or form. 1350 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,519 Speaker 4: And I walked in here today and you said to me, 1351 01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,760 Speaker 4: I keep refreshing because up and vanishes. Number two. You 1352 01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:26,400 Speaker 4: should probably do a check right now by the way 1353 01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:26,680 Speaker 4: I did. 1354 01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,719 Speaker 1: When you're in the bad it's still two and I'll 1355 01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:30,160 Speaker 1: do it again. 1356 01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:35,519 Speaker 4: And three is at number eighteen. And for whatever reason, 1357 01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,880 Speaker 4: I think we talked about this, right. We obsess about 1358 01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,400 Speaker 4: this stuff. We want our stuff to be seen. If 1359 01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:44,200 Speaker 4: something's climbing the charts, it means something's happening, someone is 1360 01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,760 Speaker 4: discovering something, and it's being discussed with friends that we 1361 01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,559 Speaker 4: will never know what those conversations were. We will never 1362 01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:53,840 Speaker 4: know exactly how this thing got to be popular in 1363 01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:57,080 Speaker 4: all the you know, hundreds of thousands of machinations, but 1364 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,360 Speaker 4: we think it's pretty cool. And if you know that 1365 01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:02,920 Speaker 4: an audience is really getting behind something, it's just the 1366 01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:05,160 Speaker 4: best feeling in the world. So I don't need to 1367 01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:07,479 Speaker 4: be the host of everything. I don't need to have 1368 01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:09,719 Speaker 4: my name and lights all the time, but I don't want. 1369 01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,240 Speaker 1: To day in this sort of spotlight per se. Yeah, 1370 01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,880 Speaker 1: like just to stay energized by it, right, Yeah, And. 1371 01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:18,920 Speaker 4: You know I did when I was an imperative or 1372 01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:21,679 Speaker 4: the second podcast I did was called Boomtoime with Texas 1373 01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,960 Speaker 4: monthly great podcast, thank you, And in twenty nineteen we 1374 01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:26,960 Speaker 4: released at the end of the year and it really 1375 01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:28,160 Speaker 4: was incredible. 1376 01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:29,320 Speaker 1: It was really good. 1377 01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:35,200 Speaker 4: Thanks and it it was a long journey bit, but 1378 01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:39,639 Speaker 4: it is. The TV show now called Landman is started 1379 01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:40,559 Speaker 4: shooting two weeks ago. 1380 01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,439 Speaker 1: Oh amazing, dude, cause that it's been a long I 1381 01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:45,320 Speaker 1: remember about that a long time. 1382 01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:49,840 Speaker 4: Again, long the time. And Taylor Sheridan for Paramount plus 1383 01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:50,719 Speaker 4: Billy Bob Thornton. 1384 01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:53,879 Speaker 1: That's so good Man as the lead. It's so perfect. 1385 01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:55,600 Speaker 1: It's such a what does that feel like to have 1386 01:19:55,680 --> 01:20:00,320 Speaker 1: this sort of like reimagining of this this world old 1387 01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:05,400 Speaker 1: that you brought fourth first to like push it to 1388 01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:06,960 Speaker 1: an even bigger stage. 1389 01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:09,760 Speaker 4: It's like John Hammon, Demi Moore just got out of 1390 01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:11,679 Speaker 4: the cast. It's like, what's just happening. I just saw 1391 01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,479 Speaker 4: him on the last season to Fargo. What's going on exactly? 1392 01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:18,479 Speaker 4: Jonahmn the Cowboy is now in this series. And I 1393 01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:22,320 Speaker 4: think we forget sometimes that we feel like these podcasts 1394 01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:25,280 Speaker 4: like Up and Vanished or you know, The Agent, or 1395 01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:28,840 Speaker 4: anything that we've done collectively high strange. It feels like 1396 01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:29,840 Speaker 4: it takes a long time. 1397 01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:30,679 Speaker 1: Well it does. 1398 01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,120 Speaker 4: It does take a long time, but to actually make 1399 01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:35,360 Speaker 4: a TV series or a movie is can be a 1400 01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:39,800 Speaker 4: glacial process. Five or so of the imperative shows that 1401 01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:44,839 Speaker 4: I did, Yeah, who, nothing was happening. It was slow, 1402 01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,559 Speaker 4: This isn't the right fit. They're all like really close 1403 01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:52,679 Speaker 4: to having pilots done and making it happen. And then 1404 01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:55,360 Speaker 4: some of these new titles at Wabland, even before we 1405 01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:58,280 Speaker 4: take them out to the market, there's a big demand 1406 01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:00,960 Speaker 4: for these, and I think we lost sight of that 1407 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,519 Speaker 4: in the podcast industry, And so I'm looking at it. 1408 01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:07,040 Speaker 1: I'm beyond just right now and making another podcast and 1409 01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:10,439 Speaker 1: just churning those out and yeah, fucking being a factory. 1410 01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just there's something exciting knowing I don't know. 1411 01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:15,639 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how many of these will land, 1412 01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:18,639 Speaker 4: but being emboldened by Landman being a series that will 1413 01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:18,920 Speaker 4: come up. 1414 01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:21,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that it could be bigger than 1415 01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,400 Speaker 1: what it was, and that's that dreams still alive. 1416 01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:27,320 Speaker 4: And then other things are following it. It feels like 1417 01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:30,320 Speaker 4: for me, it's a moment in my life that has 1418 01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:34,240 Speaker 4: been like nothing else when I see I don't know, 1419 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,519 Speaker 4: just like all these because getting back to the greater 1420 01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:41,880 Speaker 4: process a little bit and trying to explain that uncomfortable 1421 01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:43,559 Speaker 4: like this is big for me, but I need to 1422 01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:46,360 Speaker 4: translate to that to you moment that we were talking about. 1423 01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:50,679 Speaker 4: One of the exercises I do go through is early 1424 01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:53,960 Speaker 4: on with the team we actually make the show art 1425 01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:56,879 Speaker 4: and the deck and the visuals and all that stuff 1426 01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:58,240 Speaker 4: right at the beginning. 1427 01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:00,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to make them. I've done that a 1428 01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:00,760 Speaker 1: lot too. 1429 01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:02,679 Speaker 4: I want I just want to make the movie poster 1430 01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,160 Speaker 4: because I can see it in a movie poster. I 1431 01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:07,120 Speaker 4: know what the show is, I know what the identity 1432 01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,559 Speaker 4: is and by the way, change your mind ten times 1433 01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:12,160 Speaker 4: before the release. But I want people when they look 1434 01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:14,599 Speaker 4: at any of the shows that I do, to feel 1435 01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:18,120 Speaker 4: like they've walked into a theater of really cool stories 1436 01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:21,400 Speaker 4: and you don't have to love them all, but I 1437 01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:22,680 Speaker 4: think there's something there for you. 1438 01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:27,280 Speaker 1: I feel like what I experience every time I'm making 1439 01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:30,519 Speaker 1: a new show. Every time it feels like I'm learning 1440 01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:33,960 Speaker 1: how to write a black again. I'm starting over from scratch, 1441 01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:37,759 Speaker 1: and I get to this point where I'm just buried 1442 01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:40,799 Speaker 1: in it, and I'm like, man, is this any good? 1443 01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:41,920 Speaker 4: Is this? 1444 01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,639 Speaker 1: Is this the time I just put out a piece 1445 01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:50,559 Speaker 1: of shit show in everyone around me? So thank you guys, 1446 01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:53,960 Speaker 1: like all my friends and peers family, It's like, man, 1447 01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:56,160 Speaker 1: we know it's going to be good, and I go. 1448 01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,759 Speaker 1: And my response as of late has been like, okay, 1449 01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,519 Speaker 1: well I appreciate that, but like I don't know that, 1450 01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,439 Speaker 1: like you know, like you have that faith in me. 1451 01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:13,640 Speaker 1: But I think what's not considered is is that I 1452 01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:16,920 Speaker 1: gotta think of it and do it, and I'm always 1453 01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:21,080 Speaker 1: fearful that like I'm gonna run out or something. It's 1454 01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:24,800 Speaker 1: almost and maybe it's like an interrational idea or maybe not, 1455 01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,040 Speaker 1: and you know, not everything's gonna be as good as 1456 01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:33,240 Speaker 1: a last or that whatever. But it's like I I 1457 01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:38,559 Speaker 1: feel like every year that goes by, I'm like this, 1458 01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:44,000 Speaker 1: my work needs to be getting better and I don't 1459 01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:47,760 Speaker 1: want to fall off. And my peers and friends have 1460 01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:51,720 Speaker 1: a lot of faith in me, which is thank you everybody. 1461 01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:56,519 Speaker 1: But I'm also like, Okay, well that's a change that 1462 01:23:56,600 --> 01:23:58,920 Speaker 1: I think, like, I still know how to make this great, 1463 01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:03,400 Speaker 1: and so I'm still I'm still making this shit up. 1464 01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:10,840 Speaker 1: I'm giving it my best decision and gut instincts and 1465 01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:15,519 Speaker 1: let's go, and I'm like, we'll see. But taking into 1466 01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:19,679 Speaker 1: account all that I've learned through everything that didn't work 1467 01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:24,000 Speaker 1: and did work, and trying to infuse how I feel 1468 01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:26,000 Speaker 1: a little bit more into it in terms of like 1469 01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:30,040 Speaker 1: a more nuanced creative project that I don't know can 1470 01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:34,160 Speaker 1: hit on levels that maybe my other ones didn't a 1471 01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:34,920 Speaker 1: little more depth. 1472 01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:36,639 Speaker 4: You know, some stuff is just not going to work. 1473 01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:41,320 Speaker 4: It's just the wrong time, wrong moment it happens. And 1474 01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:45,719 Speaker 4: the stuff that didn't work for me was the moments 1475 01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:49,200 Speaker 4: that I got talked into a project that I'm looking back, 1476 01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:51,639 Speaker 4: I really didn't believe in. I thought I was being 1477 01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:53,240 Speaker 4: a good corporate citizen. 1478 01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:55,640 Speaker 1: Right, and like you kind of like sold yourself on it. 1479 01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:57,880 Speaker 1: But in hindsight you're like, you know, when you believe 1480 01:24:57,880 --> 01:24:58,759 Speaker 1: in something and. 1481 01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:01,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of like versus like this is the 1482 01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:04,080 Speaker 4: team and there's nothing wrong with teamwork and like being 1483 01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:07,160 Speaker 4: part of the whatever. But I kind of signed. I 1484 01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:10,280 Speaker 4: was like, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, let's if you guys 1485 01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,439 Speaker 4: believe it too, then let's do it. And they were 1486 01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:15,160 Speaker 4: the worst performing shows. It doesn't mean they were bad shows, 1487 01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:20,240 Speaker 4: but they ended up being small shows to our point earlier, 1488 01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:23,840 Speaker 4: like it didn't fit all the checkboxes that I wanted 1489 01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,479 Speaker 4: it to. It maybe feel good in another way that 1490 01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:28,320 Speaker 4: I was doing something good for. 1491 01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:31,799 Speaker 1: The company or what episode. Equally as important as a creative. 1492 01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:33,679 Speaker 1: As a creator, I think. 1493 01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:36,439 Speaker 4: Is you don't want to be difficult. It's not being 1494 01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:40,000 Speaker 4: difficult or is jerk, It's just you just have to 1495 01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:43,640 Speaker 4: have a standard. I hope that this conversation today has 1496 01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:48,240 Speaker 4: been a conversation about not to feel sorry for us, 1497 01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:51,080 Speaker 4: or to pity us, or to well, their job really 1498 01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,120 Speaker 4: is hard, because we have the best job in the world. 1499 01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:55,040 Speaker 4: This is like the secrets out. 1500 01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:56,880 Speaker 1: There, This is taking that seriously to be this is 1501 01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:57,720 Speaker 1: a dream. 1502 01:25:58,200 --> 01:25:59,960 Speaker 4: But like at the end of the day, you know, 1503 01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:03,400 Speaker 4: we're just trying to do We're trying to you know, 1504 01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:06,719 Speaker 4: we're trying to make stuff that people love, that's important 1505 01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,479 Speaker 4: to them. And you know, sometimes the internet is a 1506 01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:12,559 Speaker 4: very hateful place and you have to have a sense 1507 01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:15,839 Speaker 4: of humor. Like you said, so when I see comments 1508 01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:21,320 Speaker 4: of like, you know, your voice sucks boring, Yeah, too long, 1509 01:26:21,479 --> 01:26:30,320 Speaker 4: didn't read you know, vocal fry right, you know, it's 1510 01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:33,680 Speaker 4: this goes on and of course great series, but he 1511 01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:37,800 Speaker 4: didn't solve the case. Yeah, I mean, what are we 1512 01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:38,400 Speaker 4: supposed to do? 1513 01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:41,240 Speaker 1: I mean what I get the most is like, wow, 1514 01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:44,439 Speaker 1: he definitely know. He certainly knows how to make this 1515 01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:48,519 Speaker 1: all about himself. That's me And and like, you know, 1516 01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:51,599 Speaker 1: I don't even completely fault someone through thinking that, because 1517 01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:55,320 Speaker 1: I could see how I would have a quick hot 1518 01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:58,400 Speaker 1: take on me and not know me and not really 1519 01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:01,160 Speaker 1: actually listen to the story though, and be like pits 1520 01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:04,720 Speaker 1: guards doing it for But it's like thinking that way, 1521 01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:07,640 Speaker 1: it's just to me, it's how I know, it's how 1522 01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:09,439 Speaker 1: I know how to tell a story, and to me, 1523 01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:11,840 Speaker 1: I feel like it makes it feel more immersive and 1524 01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:14,280 Speaker 1: it also makes me better at what I do. 1525 01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:15,200 Speaker 4: People want. 1526 01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:18,880 Speaker 1: It's not as deep as you would would like it 1527 01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:21,880 Speaker 1: to be if you're hating on it, and sorry to 1528 01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:26,200 Speaker 1: upset you, it isn't. And I think that you don't 1529 01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,080 Speaker 1: want to believe that if you want to keep doing 1530 01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:31,280 Speaker 1: the other thing. And I'm all open, I'm open to 1531 01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:34,960 Speaker 1: criticism and reviews of my work and how I conduct myself. 1532 01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:41,080 Speaker 1: But it's a tired thought, I think, and lazy. 1533 01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:44,599 Speaker 4: Well here's where I've landed, just in in that grand 1534 01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:48,320 Speaker 4: scheme of things. You don't have to like it, just 1535 01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:49,400 Speaker 4: don't be a jerk about it. 1536 01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:51,240 Speaker 1: That's that's just like I'm okay. 1537 01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:53,160 Speaker 4: I'm actually okay if you don't like it. 1538 01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:54,439 Speaker 1: There's something there's a lot of shit I hate, And 1539 01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:56,840 Speaker 1: guess what, I am never near those things, and I 1540 01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:59,400 Speaker 1: just I never subscribe to them, I never look at them, 1541 01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:02,000 Speaker 1: I never talk to them, I never hear them. I 1542 01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:03,519 Speaker 1: stay away from the things that I hate. 1543 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:07,160 Speaker 4: Yes, why to cancel my Twitter account? Eight eight ninety Yeah, I. 1544 01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:09,920 Speaker 1: Don't need that, exactly, smart move X. 1545 01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:13,200 Speaker 4: Yeah whatever it is, Yeah, yeah, exactly, I'm done. Yeah. 1546 01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:15,320 Speaker 1: So it's yeah, it's it's not worth it. 1547 01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:19,280 Speaker 4: So for the audience perspective, I feel like this is 1548 01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:21,120 Speaker 4: our conversation every time we see each other. 1549 01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and in some way, shape or form along with 1550 01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:26,599 Speaker 1: just like absolutely we're keeping up and we're commiserating. Yeah, 1551 01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,120 Speaker 1: we're celebrating together, little micro winds. 1552 01:28:29,240 --> 01:28:31,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, here's a cool here's some cool shit I want 1553 01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:32,280 Speaker 4: you to hear or see. 1554 01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:36,160 Speaker 1: Whatever, Like amping ourselves up and just having fun with it. Yeah, 1555 01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:41,200 Speaker 1: because we enjoy creating and it's a unique thing that 1556 01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:43,719 Speaker 1: we're doing and it feels cool to aid to connect 1557 01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:47,680 Speaker 1: on that at a real level because there's only so 1558 01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:49,799 Speaker 1: many people that you can do that with and feel comfortable, 1559 01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:51,760 Speaker 1: vulnerable being around to do that with. 1560 01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:53,840 Speaker 4: I love what I do, and I know you love 1561 01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,680 Speaker 4: what you do, and that's what makes this, hopefully the 1562 01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:01,040 Speaker 4: the industry grow. The audience is still growing. They're still 1563 01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:04,000 Speaker 4: in love with podcasts, and it's our responsibility to give 1564 01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:05,440 Speaker 4: them some really good shit. 1565 01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:08,040 Speaker 1: Right exactly, or like or were we just sitting here 1566 01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:12,439 Speaker 1: wearing the podcast or costume right trying to, you know, 1567 01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:13,640 Speaker 1: play podcaster? 1568 01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:16,080 Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, I don't want to do that. Not interesting. 1569 01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:20,080 Speaker 1: I want to bank the rules over and over again. Yeah, 1570 01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:22,880 Speaker 1: but this has been amazing, man, This is like I thought. 1571 01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,280 Speaker 1: We went to a lot of places and honestly just 1572 01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:30,479 Speaker 1: been a cathartic little conversation because I'm in the thick 1573 01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:33,840 Speaker 1: of it now and you are too, and feels good 1574 01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:35,800 Speaker 1: to talk about this well. 1575 01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:36,920 Speaker 4: Cheers man, It's been a blass. 1576 01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,360 Speaker 5: Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and 1577 01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:47,280 Speaker 5: iHeart Podcasts, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For tenderfoot TV, 1578 01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:51,720 Speaker 5: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive 1579 01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:56,120 Speaker 5: producer is Mike Rudy. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are 1580 01:29:56,120 --> 01:29:59,920 Speaker 5: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup 1581 01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:04,120 Speaker 5: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, 1582 01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:08,920 Speaker 5: Sean Nerney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wild for Cohedo. Production 1583 01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:13,320 Speaker 5: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing 1584 01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:17,040 Speaker 5: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover 1585 01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,800 Speaker 5: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website 1586 01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:28,360 Speaker 5: Talking todeathpodcast dot com. 1587 01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:30,679 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death. 1588 01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:34,559 Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you 1589 01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:38,080 Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe 1590 01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:42,320 Speaker 1: to Tenderfoot plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus 1591 01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:46,240 Speaker 1: dot com,