1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel. 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: superproducer Paul Mission controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Cryptocurrency, conspiracy, corruption, crime, and 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: cotton but not spelled the way you would think. That's 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: what today's episode is about. It comes to us courtesy 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: of a fellow conspiracy realist, Chris, who wrote to us Chris, 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: if you recall in a earlier Listener mail segment, and 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: Is had asked us more about the strange story of 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: the officially late crypto multimillionaire Gerald William Cotton or Jerry 16 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: with a G to his friends. What follows is a 17 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: series of strange, interconnected conspiracies hindering on I mean hindering 18 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: on scams, greed and griffs, but just possibly hindering on 19 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: the concept of pseudo side. Uh. We've got a lot 20 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: of stuff to unravel here. We may not get to 21 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: it all, but we are excited to dive in with you. 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 1: So here are the facts. Who was a young, young 23 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: dude at the at the height of his achievements. He 24 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: was born May eleven in Canada. Yeah, I mean it 25 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: seems pretty typical for you know, burgeoning uh kind of 26 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: boy geniuses in this crypto space. You know, it's sort 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: of like a almost become like a meme or a 28 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: bit of of a parody. But yeah, he was born 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: Gerald William on May eleventh of nineteen eight in Canada. Um. 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: His official death day was December nine, two th eighteen, 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: meaning that he would have been a thirty years old. 32 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: A fifth story is to be believed in Cotton lived 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: in Old Belleville, Ontario, before he headed on down to 34 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: business school at York University in Toronto, and uh he 35 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: graduated there in two thousand and ten. He had a 36 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: bachelor's degree in business administration. So you know, he's on 37 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: his way up to to have a legit job making 38 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: tons and tons of money. I think he already had 39 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: a job, but we'll we'll get to you. He definitely did. 40 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: He had a side hustle, yeah, or maybe college was 41 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: the side hustle unclear, but I have opinions there is 42 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: an interesting gap in Cotton's timeline from here's what we know. Um, 43 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: he was very busy, as as you and I just 44 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: eluded Matt uh both during his higher education, probably before 45 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: and uh. By the end of ten he had relocated 46 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: to Vancouver and he had started what would become for 47 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: a very brief time, a massively successful company. If you're 48 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: not in if you're not one of the people who 49 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: reads about cryptocurrency, cryptocurrency, in bitcoin and so on, you 50 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: might not have heard of Cotton before I Flicks documentary 51 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: drops next year. But if you are from familiar with 52 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: the world of cryptocurrency, you know a little bit about 53 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: his professional past, which is edging into legend at this point. Anyhow, 54 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: he founds this outfit called Quadriga Fintech Solutions with a 55 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: business partner. Yeah, not the not the most um, not 56 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: the most smooth name. But his business partner is going 57 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: by the name my called patron. Will explain what we 58 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: mean by that a little later. I gotta I gotta ask, 59 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: I mean, is this the kind of thinking name of 60 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: your company to make it sound like a big, massive 61 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, biotech firm when it's all kind of really 62 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: just smoking mirrors, or is there something behind these kind 63 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: of imaginary sounding words like quadriga and fintech. Fintech is 64 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: quadriga is? I think it is a kind of So 65 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: I was looking this up, and I was trying to 66 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: figure out if I could, if I could find some 67 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: clear evidence of why they named it this way. But 68 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: a quadriga is a real thing. It's a chariot that's 69 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: drawn by four horses. It was used and they're all 70 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: in one straight line. It was used for chariot racing 71 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: in the Roman Empire, like some ben hur type stuff. Yeah. 72 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: According to a Vanity Fair article, the that quadriga, the 73 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: four person chariot was used because there were four people 74 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: who basically controlled the funds that flowed into and out 75 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: of this exchange which we're going to tell you about, 76 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: which which will figure into the story a bit later. 77 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: The specificity right, the specificity of right, and you can't 78 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: recommend enough that article matches cited Ponzi schemes. Private Yachts 79 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: won't give you the whole title, but it's the strange 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: tale of Quadriga by a journalists named Nathaniel Rich, I 81 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: was not able to independently, like discover exactly why they, uh, 82 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: these two guys that we know of named it that. 83 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: But Quadriga is a real thing. And then also Rich 84 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: seems pretty convinced that it was named for the idea 85 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: of these four individuals powering it. So so it's it's 86 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: weird because Quadriga itself is not really not so much 87 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: the subject of the action here. It's the operator of 88 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: what's called a cryptocurrency exchange, one's called Quadrigua c X, 89 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: which over the course of a few years, just a 90 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: few would go on to become the largest cryptocurrency exchange 91 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: in the entirety of Canada. Uh that this is where 92 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: we see I think one of the first plot wrinkles, 93 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: and I know everybody clocked it here too. You can't 94 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: start one of these without something to financially prime the pump. 95 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: So the big question is where did Patron and Cotton 96 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: get there, get their seed money to begin with? How 97 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: did they start the exchange. That's a question we can 98 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: speculate at. We can speculate at later, but for now, 99 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: just keep that in the front of your mind. Somehow, 100 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: these two guys who have interesting past that the customers 101 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: of Quadrigue are not aware of. Somehow they managed to 102 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: start this thing that automatically blows up. And why does 103 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: it blow up? A lot of it goes down to 104 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: timing and culture. I think we can say that a certainty. Yeah, 105 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: and in I mean, a crypto exchange is literally what 106 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: it sounds like. It's like, you know, where you can 107 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: convert one type. You know, first of all, you can 108 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: buy cryptocurrency using American dollars or euros or in this 109 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: case Canadian um currency. Uh. And then once you've done that, 110 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: you'll say you you take your initial you know, um 111 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: fiat currency and invested in bitcoin or whatever. You can 112 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: then exchange that currency into any number of hundreds of 113 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: other currencies and usually it get It lends these these 114 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: coins more legitimacy when they end up on a prominent exchange. 115 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: So like some of these fly by night current cryptocurrencies, 116 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: they won't be on the big exchanges um. And if 117 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: they do, it makes big news and oftentimes that in 118 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: and of itself can move the price. You know, oh shiba, 119 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: a new coin is now all of a sudden on 120 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: crypto dot com, and that can really balloon the price 121 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: of a coin like that. We're probably gonna get into 122 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: this later bit I'm assuming, but this exchange, Quadriga Exchange, 123 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: actually used tokens as a system of exchange, so you 124 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: would you would go into their system and buy tokens 125 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: which you could then use to exchange for crypto and 126 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: vibe I'm assuming vice versa, and we're about to get 127 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: into that later. At this point, cryptocurrency is becoming something 128 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: that the mainstream knows about, even if they're not dabbling 129 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: with it themselves. That's due in part to the coverage 130 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: of the Silk Road, which we did some episodes on 131 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: in the past. By February, just one month after Quadriga 132 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: launches their online platform, this thing called Mount Cox, which 133 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: had been the largest crypto exchange in Canada up to 134 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: that point, was going down in flames. They had lost 135 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: around eight hundred and fifty thousand of their customers bitcoins. 136 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: So Quadriga all of a sudden becomes like and that 137 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: a news story breaks and Pepsi is poisoned. Coke sales skyrocket. 138 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: That's that's a rough analogy for what's happening here. Quadrigo 139 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: was inarguably in the right place at the right time, 140 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: and it did not take long for the company to 141 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: end up capturing about eighty percent of Canada's entire crypto 142 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: exchange market. In simple terms, that's a ton of money. 143 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: Oh it's insane. But just just back to Mount Cox briefly, 144 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: like it was hacked. All of that money was stolen, 145 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: liked and fifty thousand bitcoins, which the value of today 146 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: I can't even do the math, but I mean it's 147 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars um. 148 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: So there was also like a moment of like swooping 149 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: in and be like, Okay, we're gonna bring your faith back. 150 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: You know, We're gonna like have some kind of backing 151 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: uh to this system that will make sure something like 152 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: Mount Cox can't ever happen again to us. Yeah. The 153 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: other regal here is that at least again I keep 154 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: citing that vanity of your article so extensive. One of 155 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: the big problems was exchanging. This stuff had to occur 156 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: in Japan, like physically in Japan if you were going 157 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: to do certain types of exchanges. So uh, Quadrigo would 158 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: allow those exchanges to occur in Canada, which was a 159 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: major plus for the company. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because 160 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: Mount Cox before its fall, because it was a Tokyo 161 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: based exchange, I think it was seventy percent of the 162 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: entire global bitcoin trade was going through Mount Cox. So 163 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: back to Quadrick. The world is full of business success 164 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: stories just like this, you know what I mean, and 165 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: it can be inspiring to people. Here's here's a couple 166 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: of guys who ostensibly didn't start with silver spoons in 167 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: their mouths, and now they are some of the biggest 168 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: players and one of the newest, most disruptive of tech industries. 169 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: But people started to take a closer look. They dipped 170 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: their fingers beneath the pr surface, and they found indications 171 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: of problems on the horizon. Quadriga did end up having employees, 172 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: one of whom was a hapless regulatory attorney. If you're listening, 173 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: shout out to you. The biggest problem that people noticed 174 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: immediately was that Cotton seemed to be functioning as sort 175 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: of a one man army. This one guy was running 176 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: the entirety of this gigantic exchange, this leviathan of an entity. 177 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: And also the company didn't have a lot of things 178 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,119 Speaker 1: that these companies would be expected to have, like standard 179 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: accounting software or a way to not only track funds, 180 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, in a transparent manner, but it didn't have 181 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: metrics against which to measure its own success. And I 182 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: love the point you brought up, Matt about the about 183 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: Mount Cox and Tokyo. If you wanted to cash out 184 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: from Quadriga, you had to physically meet in uh in 185 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: a location and take the funds in physical cash, So 186 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: like not getting that stuff wired to you. Yeah, like 187 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: a parking lot who doesn't like being able to make 188 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: a ton of money with a new investments? Right? But 189 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: if they've got eighty percent of Canada's crypto business and 190 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: there's only three people working for the company, who's meeting 191 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: them in the parking lot? Is it is literally one 192 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: of the three guys or four guys. Rather maybe it 193 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: was like a task rabbit situation. Sketchy, But remember we're 194 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: talking right, that's when we're really talking about race. So 195 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: not massive scale, not mad isn't like a massive number 196 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: even like the number of people that are into crypto 197 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 1: at this point it is probably maybe in the hundreds. 198 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: And just remember around that time we mentioned the silk road, 199 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: Bitcoin was being used for things that sometimes was being 200 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: used for things that you may want to operate more 201 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 1: on a cash system going in and out of it, right, 202 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: rather than having a bunch of things traced going into 203 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: a bank account, something like that, Right, beanie babies, POGs, 204 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, vintage snapple, the kind of stuff you don't 205 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: want your friends knowing you're into. Yeah, um, but you're right, 206 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, trafficking and drugs being a huge part 207 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: of that. That's what they were associated with in the 208 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: earlier days. This is this is something we have to 209 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: say this at first in Quadrigue's defense and in defense 210 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: of other companies in what Corporate America would call this space. 211 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: At this time, their hands were tied in the world 212 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: of banking because they could not, uh, they could not 213 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: conform to regulations, even even like a lot of banking 214 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: regulations end up being toothless at the top. You know 215 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: what I mean. If you are if you're reaching a 216 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: certain level of financial success, if the punishment for a 217 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: crime is a fee, then that is not a crime 218 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: for the people who can afford the fee. It's a 219 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: cost of doing business, and it's something that's unfortunately true 220 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: in many cases. I want to go back to what 221 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: you said, Matt, earlier. So Quadrico couldn't use these traditional 222 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: banking channels. They didn't have any business accounts because no 223 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: regulated bank, no normal bank would touch them. And this 224 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: was again a problem for similar outfits. So Quadrica used 225 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: other methods. They used what was called a platform credit system. 226 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: So like, um, let's say no, let's use you as 227 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: an example. You've got uh ten dollars and you put 228 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: ten dollars US or Canadian into this exchange. Um, let's 229 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: just say us for the sake of the example. When 230 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: you put in that ten bucks, you get what's called 231 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: ten Quadriga bucks, and you can trade the Quadriga bucks 232 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: on the exchange. It's almost like David Buster's money. Why 233 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: why do they have these shenanigans. Well, the problem is this, 234 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: If people are putting money into the platform and they're 235 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: buying bitcoins straight from there, that would mean that legally speaking, 236 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: Quadriga is a money transmitting entity. This alternative arrangement is 237 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: just them selling tokens, kind of like the way that 238 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: if you go to an art party or you go 239 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: somewhere without a liquor license, you can donate money and 240 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: they'll give you a you know, an award winning beer 241 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: like a PBR. This this feels like a very similar 242 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: thing to games that many of us probably play on 243 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: our phones, where you may buy from the game platform 244 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: tokens that can be exchanged for other things in a 245 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: weird way. You're never exchanging money for an actual thing 246 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: other than their tokens. I don't know, Yeah, not directly right. Yeah, 247 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: it's a it's a very it seems like a small, 248 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: weasily loophole, but it is an important one. It gets 249 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: stranger than that too. When customers wired money in the 250 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: funds did not go straight to Quadrica, they went through 251 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: a series of shell companies. Uh. These companies were meant 252 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: to kind of obscure things if they need to be obscured, 253 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: and most importantly, to avoid scrutiny of regulatory bodies. The 254 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: street name for this is, by the way, money laundry. 255 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: That's that's what it is. They used a lot of 256 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: they use a lot of processors. They also worked with 257 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: a big fish called Crypto Capital, which will come into 258 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: play later. But so far things are pretty exciting. Things 259 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: are on the up and up in the company starts 260 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: saying well, let's go public, and at this point still 261 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: the company is not quite you know, Trent Resiner is 262 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: basically nine inch nails. Uh. Cotton is pretty much in 263 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: the back end. He's pretty much Quadriga, but he is 264 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: still he still has support staff, he still is working 265 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: with Patron and making a move to go public. To 266 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: your earlier point and all about legitimacy in general, this 267 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: could be huge for the company because it's a stamp 268 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: of approval from the world of investors. But there was 269 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: another wrink goal By the end of UM, they were 270 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: not doing particularly well. They were operating at a loss, 271 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: the hefty loss ninety thod dollar Canadian dollar net loss um. 272 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: And it's a little tough to kind of take a 273 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: step back and see the whole view here because Quadriga's 274 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: accounting was really really add But Patron did seem to 275 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: think that there was a cash flow problem, and he 276 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: put a hundred and fifty k of his own money 277 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: in along with seven hundred K that they raised from 278 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: some other investors. And in March of that year, after 279 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: another round of publicly announced fundraising, Quadriga said that it 280 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: was ready to go public, but that never happened. Yes, 281 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: and this is a weird story, and it only gets 282 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: weirder from here. We're gonna take a quick break and 283 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. 284 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: We've returned. Yeah, and the company has like a functional 285 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: revenue of a little north of twenty dollars, So it's 286 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: not it's not like a particularly rosy uh. The issue 287 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: here is that the real picture of their net loss 288 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: versus gains or what have you is really tough to 289 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: see because that that accounting was not up to snuff. 290 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:08,959 Speaker 1: So it's December, two rounds of fundraising, pretty lucrative rounds, 291 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: the company has burned through all of that new investment, 292 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: and Cotton pretty much fires everyone, including interestingly enough, their 293 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: regulatory attorney. Fast forward, Michael Patrion is also out. He 294 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: cuts ties with both Quadrigua as a company and with 295 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: Gerald's Cotton. Cotton is now fully Trent Resider nine inch 296 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: nail style on his own, but loneliness could be, you know, 297 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: a damaging thing for some human psyches. Cotton created a 298 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: dummy account on the exchange. He made a friend, this 299 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: friend's name Chris Markey, and Cotton again had had control 300 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: over the entirety of the back end. So what Cotton 301 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: did is he credited is new newly minted friend to 302 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: Chris Markey with a ton of fake money, and then 303 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: through Chris Markey, Cotton bought real bitcoin and he repeated 304 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: the process with etherium. Fast forward. He's doing this for 305 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: a while, he's moving wing. Cotton is essentially printing money 306 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: at this point, he's he's assigning his pal Chris of 307 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: fake value or a spoof value, and then using that 308 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: to purchase real crypto U and he's doing this to 309 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: in his extreme egregious degree. The Ontario Securities Commission will 310 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: later find that of trades on Quadrica are actually Chris 311 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: market trades. He's trading against his own customers. He created 312 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: a ponzi scheme. Is that like the robbing Peter to 313 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: pay Paul kind of situation? Yeah, very much so. A 314 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: ponzi scheme works as long as it has uninhibited growth. 315 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: And what you do is you you make these wild 316 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: promise is of profits far above the norm that an 317 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: investor would expect, and every time somebody pays into this, 318 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: you take the money that they have paid and you 319 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: give it to the folks who have been in the 320 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: game longer and are expecting returns. The problem is, if 321 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: you're like Ponsi, the namesake of this scheme. Then you're 322 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: you know, you're taking you're taking a taste at the 323 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: very minimum out of everything people are doing. Um. It 324 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: could be as something as small as like a transaction fee. 325 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: But in most cases it's not. Because Ponzi schemes are grifts, 326 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: they are scams. Uh, they're not sustainable. And also what 327 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: they need is a constantly presumably replenishing pool of funds 328 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: and unbridled access to it um and nobody thinking to 329 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: check on it, you know what I mean, Like either 330 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: you're like a money manager or something. UM. There would 331 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: be no indication, there would be no red flags for 332 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: someone to be like, oh my money is gone, um, 333 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: because as far as they're concerned, the money still they're 334 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: it's just being moved around. There's nothing earmarking who that 335 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: money belongs to. It's just part of the big pool, 336 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: right yeah. Yeah. The house of cards is falling around eighteen, 337 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: it's reaching the it's reaching the end of the typical 338 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme pattern, which means new deposits are directly being 339 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: used to fund withdrawals from more and more people saying, hey, 340 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: where's my money? What's the delay? And you can see 341 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: the forums where people are saying, well, the delay is 342 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: really on the Canadian banks. They're the bad guys. We're 343 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: trying to get this to you. And then Cotton smell 344 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: Cotton is um you didn't know about his past. You 345 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: would say Cotton has an extreme intuitive ability to sense 346 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: what's down the road here because he actually transfers some 347 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: of the money he's stole back into the exchange as 348 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: a stop gap as a band aid. And uh October, 349 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: he marries his longtime girlfriend, Jennifer Robertson que the music 350 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: Wonderful Things. Uh. Just a month later, and this is 351 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: something Matt you mentioned on that listener mail segment. He 352 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: makes a will and in his will he leaves all 353 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: of his assets, well, he leaves some to his dogs chihuahuas, 354 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: leaves all uh yeah seriously, yeah a d hunter k 355 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: And uh. Three days after signing this will, he and 356 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: his new bride traveled to India. It's the afternoon of 357 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: December eighteen. It's a little bit past five pm. Cotton 358 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: and Robertson land and ha Poor India, and they check 359 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: into a hotel named the Oberoi raj Villas. Cotton, according 360 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: to the story takes ill, and a day later, he 361 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: officially dies of complications from Crohn's disease. Uh he is. 362 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: Cause of death is listed as cardiac arrest. And depending 363 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: on which death certificate you read, he either died at 364 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: that hotel, or he died at a private hospital called 365 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: Fortis Escorts, or did he die at all. Here's where 366 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. So notice, folks, we've used the word 367 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: allegedly and officially when describing Cotton's death in that earlier 368 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: Listener Male segment. We also hinted at this controversy through 369 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: through using these same terms. And the truth of the 370 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: matter is that many many people, not just burned customers 371 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: or victims of this outfit, they believe that Cotton may 372 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: have faked his death. Why why would you do that? 373 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 1: How would you do it? We've kind of already said 374 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: this uplement and established the fact that Cotton was in trouble. 375 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: He knew that not only local authorities, but the Feds. 376 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: We're circling him, they were sniffing around, they knew, they 377 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: knew something was up. And he's got all this money. 378 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: So like you can only imagine that, like if he 379 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: was if he wasn't already on the run by going 380 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: to India and having this marriage and honeymoon. Right. Uh, 381 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: he was gonna be on the run very soon after that, 382 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: or you can imagine him being prepared for that and 383 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: or preparing for it. But then there's just the cause 384 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: of his death in general, how it occurred and how 385 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: rapidly it came about. Right, Yeah, Cron's disease. For anybody unfamiliar, 386 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: we mentioned this previously, Crown's disease is a kind of 387 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: ib D inflammatory bowel disease, and it can be a real, 388 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: a real pain on multiple levels because it can give 389 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: you diarrhea, weight loss, fatigue, abdominal issues. It can lead 390 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 1: to malnutrition. But dying of Crohn's disease would be an 391 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: exceedingly rare event. Yeah. A good friend of mine I 392 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: grew up with lots of sleepovers and stuff like that. 393 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: Their mother had a brother's their mother had Crowns disease 394 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: and it was very manageable. It was painful when there 395 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: were flare ups, but it was the kind of thing 396 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: you take medication for your whole life, um, and it 397 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: would allow you to live a pretty normal, you know, 398 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: day to day life. It wasn't something that I witnessed, 399 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, and I was over there a lot. I 400 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: never witnessed like some kind of crazy situation where there 401 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: was an episode of some kind. It was just something that, 402 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: you know, maybe she was tired that day or something. 403 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: But that was the usually the bulk of it. But 404 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: I've certainly never really heard of killing anybody, not to 405 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: not to say that it doesn't happen, but it is 406 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: possible maybe that he had a pre existing heart condition, 407 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: of that she was unaware, and that the flare up 408 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: of Crone's somehow, um somehow, in a dark, unenviable lottery 409 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: led to his unexpected death. It's possible. Again, But as 410 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: far as someone dying just from straight up Crown's disease, 411 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: the best we can say is that it is very 412 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: very rare. So as we were saying, many many people 413 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: don't think he actually died. Why, uh, yeah, it's he 414 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: had a motive, Like you said, Matt. He also he 415 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: also had some really sketchy stuff about his again official demise. 416 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: Local governments, not just in India but in different parts 417 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: of the world can and have been bribed for what 418 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: some people might find to be a surprisingly reasonable fee. 419 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: The story of Cotton's body gets pretty murky, to be 420 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: honest with you. From what we found, there was a 421 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: doctor at the Mahatma Gandhi Hospital who refused to sign 422 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 1: an embalming certificate on December ten, and Cotton's body was 423 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: taken to the SMS Medical College where the supervisor there 424 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: never actually saw the body. The embalming certificate was signed 425 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: and processed by a junior staffer. So we would say, okay, 426 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: find guys, I get it an embolving certificate that sounds 427 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: official and legit. But usually when people die there's a 428 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: death certificate. So what happened to that? And that the 429 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: first thing investigators would look at. Yeah, and they found two. 430 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: So they had doubled up on the death certificates. There 431 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: at least two out there. One list is place of 432 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: death as Forda's Hospital, but another one listed as that hotel. 433 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: Raj villis also the name on the death certificate for 434 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: the hotel, which was obtained by an outfit called coin desk. Uh. 435 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: The name is misspelled. Could be a clerical error, you 436 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: know what I mean, It's it's definitely possible or what 437 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: just like what's the alternative sloppy? Yeah? I think either 438 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: like sloppy and clerical error would be I think pretty 439 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: much the same. My question is, you know, if you're 440 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: looking for discrepancies, that's a discrepancy that pops out. You know, 441 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: that's one to to highlight. But what what would be 442 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: the advantage would he you know, would the plan be 443 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: if one was faking one's death to come back a 444 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: decade or so later and say, actually, that was a 445 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: different Michael Cotton who died nice try coppers. So wait, 446 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: so it's you know, his the official spelling of his 447 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: name is ce t T E N. Was was the 448 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: misspelling changing it to an? Oh? It was? I believe 449 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 1: it was a k oh Cotton with a K. So 450 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: maybe that was just the really extreme version of him, 451 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: you know, spells it with a K like X is 452 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: are in there somewhere. Actually it was Gerald Katar, brother 453 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: of former sn L actor Chris Katal. I guess all 454 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: I'm saying is that would be a pretty obvious ruse. 455 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: If you're gonna do it trying to be you know, 456 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: covert about it, you think you change the E well, 457 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: I mean you never know who filled it out? Well, 458 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: how much was you know, his wife involved in all 459 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: of this? There's some weirdness when you look at her 460 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,239 Speaker 1: too and her activities. Because he passes away officially on 461 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: the eight. Then two days later she departs right she 462 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: she had takes off out of India, and she lets 463 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: the the orphanage know that that they were going to 464 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: do the charity work with and have that ceremony for 465 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: uh that she lets them go through an email that 466 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: she's not going to be there because she's got to 467 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: go back to Canada with her husband's unfortunately deceased body. 468 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: But I mean, I mean, the biggest red flag of 469 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: all here is the will, you know, making it that 470 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: close to the supposed demise of this individual. I mean 471 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: not to say that, you know, forward thinking young people 472 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: don't make wills in their thirties, but it's not certainly 473 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: not something that's top of mind, you know, especially when 474 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: you're living large, you know, like that. I mean, maybe 475 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: that's maybe it's the opposite, Maybe it's exactly that reason. 476 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: When I'm living large, there's something were to happen to me, 477 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: I would hate for my you know, funds to to disappear, 478 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: especially with crypto, where there's no real law governing it 479 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: or like how it's not the same uh laws, I 480 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: believe governing like you know, a bank account or or 481 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: property or something like that. So um, but still super 482 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: weird that it was just days mere days, and everything 483 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: just seems too explainable. You know. Oh, it's rare to 484 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: die from Crohn's disease, but you know, the co morbidity, 485 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: it certainly can happen. Um, it's a little unusual, but 486 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: it seems legit. Yeah, I mean, every everybody so far 487 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: has died at some point is kind one way ride, 488 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: unless you're Henrietta Lacks, And I don't think a lot 489 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: of people would envy that position. But but yeah, it's 490 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: a good point. Like did he get a vibe, did 491 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: he have some intuition that says, hey, I need to 492 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: button things up just in case maybe a twinge of 493 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: heart pain or something like that. Or was this part 494 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: of a plan? Uh? Yeah, that's the thing. We don't 495 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: want to unfairly disparage his his widow, especially, you know, 496 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: especially imagine the idea of of losing the person you 497 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: just married on your honeymoon. That's like that is that 498 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: is almost impossible for a lot of people to imagine, 499 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: or I hope it's almost impossible for a lot of 500 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: people to imagine and despite this grief, this enormous grief 501 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: beyond words, like you said, Matt, she's able to leave 502 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: the country. She's not only able to leave the country, 503 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: but she's able to return to Canada with her husband 504 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: and his body in a very short amount of time. 505 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: How do we know this. We know because on December four, 506 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: Cotton's remains were buried in a closed casket service in Canada. 507 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: Fast forward a month later, Jennifer Robertson announces her husband's 508 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: death to the world on January, meaning there was another 509 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: gap in time. There was a month before the customers 510 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: of Quadriga, the people following it had any real idea 511 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: of what was going on other than you know, they 512 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: were getting a lot of delays if they tried to 513 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: withdraw their funds. And around this time, people were no 514 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: longer able to take their money out of the exchange. 515 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: It was no longer a two way street. The company 516 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: in fact ceased operations, but people were still able to 517 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: put money in. And that money because you know, we 518 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: explained the stage the Ponzi scheme is at now, that 519 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: money was used to support the spoofed numbers that Quadriga 520 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: was was so deep into at this point, and then 521 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: if you fast forward to January thirty one, the company 522 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: finally announces bankruptcy. Gerald William Cotton Jerry to his friends, 523 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: had died. Most of the world agreed, and when he died, 524 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: he apparently took his passwords to his grave. Jus lease. 525 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: That is one thing they say in the crypto you 526 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: know sphere or whatever, they say, uh, not your code, 527 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: not your coins, something along the lines of that. So 528 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: there will be these key I'm sorry, not your keys, 529 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: not your coins. So in other words, if you've lost uh, 530 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: some unique identifying password or some random number generator thing 531 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: that like uh, you know, UM exchange like this or 532 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: like a you know, a wallet or a bank generates 533 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: either those are dead to you. Those coins they just 534 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: exist in the ether. U it's impossible to get to 535 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: because the whole point of the blockchain is is about encryption, 536 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: you know, it's all about UM protecting it from you know, 537 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: theft um. But that's why I was just sketchy from 538 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: the first place that the whole deal with this company 539 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: was only these four guys. They had too much access. 540 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: And apparently it wasn't the four it was really just Jerry, right, 541 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: And this is we know a lot of this because 542 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: of smet excellent investigative work. We also know about it 543 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: because of some work by regulatory bodies who went in 544 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: and really did some forensic accounting in uh in a 545 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: way that gets pretty disturbing. Will pause for word from 546 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,760 Speaker 1: our sponsors, and when we return, we'll talk a little 547 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: bit more about the aftermath of Cotton's again official demise. 548 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: Show me the money, Jerry, Oh my god, I was 549 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: waiting for that one. Is that a movie reference? That 550 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: is right? Well, Jerry McGuire, Yeah, Jerry McGuire, he says, 551 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: show me the money. Cup of Gooding Jr. Says that, damon. Also, 552 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: you complete me o. Wait No, you had me at Hello. 553 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: You had me at Hello, You had me at Hello, 554 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: you had me at Crypto. So uh, that's one of 555 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: the questions when did this money go missing? Quadriga and 556 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: these things called cold wallets, And it turned out that 557 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: months before Cotton's official death, several of these wallets had 558 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: been emptied. They have been emptied. In fact, right around 559 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: the time one of their main processors, Crypto Capital, that 560 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: also crashed and burned. Their accounts were seized by government agents. 561 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: Can we can we talk about a cold wallet really fast. Yeah, 562 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: breakdown a cold wallet. It's like cold storage, right, It 563 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: is kind of like cold storage. It's a hard drive 564 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: that's not connected in any way to the network, the internet. 565 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: It's just your your stuff lives on that hard drive. 566 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: It's over there, nobody's touching it. It's secured while it's 567 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: physically secured. It's the kind of thing that if you 568 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: were going to protect your own stash and he didn't 569 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: have it on an exchange, because again, you're really they say, 570 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: don't keep your your stuff on an exchange, you could 571 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,439 Speaker 1: literally put them on a hard drive yourself and put 572 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: that in a safe deposit box. Yes, but buy or 573 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: beware because you might find yourself in the unfortunate position 574 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: of that that guy who lost his hard drive, his 575 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: cold his cold wallet in a junkyard and currently I 576 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: think still I haven't checked on him in a while. 577 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: I think still had like an open reward for someone 578 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: to help him find it. It's an unenviable position. But yes, 579 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: those several of those appear to have been empty before 580 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: Cotton's demise, and later estimates from regulatory bodies concluded that 581 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: all told, there was twenty five thousand, six hundred missing bitcoins, 582 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: eleven thousand bitcoin cash, eleven thousand bitcoin cash, s V 583 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: four hundred and thirty thousand ethereum, and thirty five thousand 584 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: bitcoin gold. This may be gobbledegook to a lot of 585 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: people outside of the world of cryptocurrency, but the maybe 586 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: the best way to explain it is that as of 587 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: around March or March February of that adds up to 588 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: something like one eight five billion dollars. And this is 589 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: in twenty valuation, So I mean, you know, a bitcoin 590 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: today I think is worth what like sixty five grands. Yeah, 591 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. Like, as of around February March 592 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: of this year, that total would add up to like 593 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: one that today. Got it perfect, And now, with great 594 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: interest in delight, I propose that we turned to the 595 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: story of Michael Patrick, because, as you may have noticed, 596 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists, we were taking pains to say he 597 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: was going by that name at the time, or he 598 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: calls himself that now, his original name is not Michael Patrick, 599 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: it is Omar to Nanny. Yeah, Michael Patrick already kind 600 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: of sounds like a made up name, doesn't it. Um 601 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: he changed his name at least twice that we know of. 602 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: He was, in fact, a convicted felon who worked with 603 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: UH an identity theft ring known as the Shadow Crew. 604 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: Um and Patron and Cotton almost certainly knew each other 605 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: well before their venture with Quadriga, and to me, this 606 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: already implies that Cotton likely knew about this the Shadow Crew. 607 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: He seems like the type. Again. Remember that all those 608 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: gaps we were talking about, right, is that your theory? Ben? 609 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to scoop you on that. You talked 610 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: about the theory about how he was, how they were 611 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: putting together the scratch for this, you know, supposedly more 612 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: above board venture with Quadriga. You think it was from 613 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: stealing identities and just like like doing something. Dude, we're 614 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: gonna talking about this, and Ben's gonna hit you it's crazy. 615 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: They're they were doing so much stuff when they were 616 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: younger people. Yeah, well there's all that time. Yea, Well, 617 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: let's those little I'm sorry, I'm just my mind is spinning, 618 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: um right, yeah, keep it spinning, man. Yeah, We're we're 619 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna spin our own heads here exorcist style. Uh, 620 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: and we're gonna do it with the help of two people, 621 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: a Reddit user named q c x I and T, 622 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 1: and some excellent research by Amy Castor Like Castor Oil, 623 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: they found strong indications just what you're saying, the Cotton 624 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: and Patron were active in Ponzi schemes earlier, different new, 625 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: different older iterations kind of harbingers what would become Quadrica Castor. 626 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,919 Speaker 1: In fact, Tracey's Cotton's criminal career all the way back 627 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: to the tender age of fifteen, when a lot of 628 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: people in the US were like stressed about getting their 629 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: learner's license. This guy was learning how to puppeteer financial 630 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: things on a on a macro scale. That's insane. Can 631 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: I ask a quick question, um, what the thing that 632 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: makes a Ponzi scheme illegal? Is the fact that you 633 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: are toying with other people's funds in ventures that they 634 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: are not aware of that are very risky in the 635 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: hopes of reaping high yield rewards. Or Am I missing something? 636 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: Because I mean that's what a money manager does. But 637 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 1: usually you have an understanding of the types of risk 638 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: or the levels of risk that your your money managers 639 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: gonna take with your money, and you sort of determine 640 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: that is this a the fact that they don't know 641 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: that the money is being moved around. I mean, presumably 642 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: they want their money to grow. I mean, can you 643 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: maybe just explain that, Ben or or Matt, uh what 644 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: what part of it makes it illegal? Because on its surface, 645 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: it's got the shell of legitimacy. I mean, I can 646 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: tell you a little bit just my understanding of these 647 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: h y I P is a right high and high 648 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: yield investment programs. Yes, okay, so yeah, I mean these babies, 649 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: these babies are they're just or ripe. If you're a 650 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 1: smart person, you can set up some like legit sounding names. 651 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: You can do some interesting stuff. And the work of 652 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: Amy castor there and that Reddit user, they really look 653 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: into some of the stuff that Cott was doing back 654 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: when he was fifteen years old. And you can also 655 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: look at that Vanity Fair article we talked about there 656 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: where they discussed like some some things that they did, like, uh, 657 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: Jerry set up stuff when he was a kid at 658 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: his parents computer that took people's money and then exited 659 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: with those people's money and just shut the thing down. 660 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: And he was communicating with this Michael Patron guy before 661 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: he was Michael Patriot. I guess I don't know, I 662 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: don't know if it was before he was Michael Patron 663 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: or not. Uh, but they would communicate it on this 664 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: place called talk Gold, which was a place where they 665 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: could exchange information and basically prop each other up and 666 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: support each other. Yeah, exactly, And he gave in the 667 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: in the kind of if I can explain it in 668 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: cinematic terms, here is why ponzi schemes are illegal. Here's 669 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: why pyramid schemes are illegal. First, they're unsustainable. But the 670 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: truth of the matter is that they ultimately cannot expand 671 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: beyond the size of the population of planet Earth and 672 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: to be successful forever without falling apart, they have to 673 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: eventually expand past that threshold. Now, with the emergence of AI, 674 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: could there be you know, unending ponzi scheme. Maybe it 675 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: depends on how quickly you can mint new sentience. Right 676 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: but right now with meat bags, Yeah, that's why it 677 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: breaks down because of the math, uh, and the idea 678 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: of that growth. But to the growth is the that's 679 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: a red flag. If you're you're airring into a situation 680 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: where growth is promised, you know, that should be a 681 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,439 Speaker 1: red flag. Like this is probably not something that's real, 682 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: but the interesting thing is like nowadays there are these 683 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: crypto projects, you know, where you get these tokens or 684 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: these like coin pairs where you can get like you meant, 685 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: a new token by pairing a coin like a finance 686 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: coin or or uh bitcoin with a token of these projects, 687 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: and they do promise a hundred percent yield um and 688 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: if you watch them over time, it's called yield farming. 689 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: It's this whole thing and and and again it is 690 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: right for exploitation. And we had a story of the 691 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: day about this rug pool situation where with the uber 692 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: or crypto eats. So this is way pre that. But 693 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: those things do exist today, still very much in the 694 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: crypto space. They're just not uh necessarily on the more 695 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: legitimate exchanges. This would have been a wild West period 696 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: of exchanges too, you know, as evidenced by the whole 697 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: meet me in the parking lot to get your money. Um. 698 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: It's fascinating stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And also I guess if 699 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: you want to be less cinematic and more technical. Uh. 700 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: The reason a ponzi scheme is illegal is because the 701 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: money that's paid to the ponzi investors is described as income, 702 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: but it's not income. It's a distribution of capital. So 703 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: they're just moving the money around, pretending that that money 704 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: is coming from some sort of profit, which it is not. 705 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: And that's my last question is that they're until they're 706 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,399 Speaker 1: inherent in this model, there is no profit. I mean, 707 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 1: I assume the value of the coins being invested grow 708 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: along with the market, but this fund or whatever isn't 709 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: actually doing anything at all to other than moving the 710 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: funds around to pay this fake dividend to the older 711 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: investors using the newer investors money, and then eventually it 712 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: just catches up right, Yeah, yeah, I mean it's tremendously 713 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: profitable for the person running the grift or the people, 714 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: but maybe not so much for the customers. So we 715 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: know a little bit about how Patron made a name 716 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: for himself because these guys, in terms of criminal activity, 717 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: they were peanut Butter and Kelly too great taste that 718 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: tastes great together. Uh. Patron. Patron started out, as far 719 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: as people can tell, by helping helping others launder money 720 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: through a mixing program. You mix it in a token 721 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: scheme called e gold, and then later you would be 722 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: able to get your money out for a reasonable fee 723 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: and your money would be clean Uh, the honey ultimately 724 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: gets deported as a result of his conviction for identity 725 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: fraud slash theft with the Shadow Crew, and then he 726 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: and Cotton appear to have teamed up for another operation 727 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: using the Midas Gold Exchange or sometimes called m Gold 728 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: Exchange in two thousand and eight, and they were big 729 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: piece of what they were doing. Here was a pre 730 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: bitcoin digital currency called Liberty Reserve, and you can imagine 731 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: it came with some political leanings. It was. It was 732 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: like imagine, um, so just like an earlier example right 733 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: no where we had, you buy one Quadriga buck or 734 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: ten Quadrica bucks. One dollar is equal to one Liberty 735 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: Reserve token basically, and you can send that token to 736 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: anyone else anywhere on the network with you know, a 737 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: little big, a small taste going to Liberty Reserve itself 738 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: into as a transaction fee. Imagine a PayPal that doesn't 739 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: need you to verify your identity. Huh. You can already 740 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: see the potential, right, folks. You can already hear the 741 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: illegal money, uh just pouring in you. Also, all you 742 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: need is an email address, and there are plenty of 743 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,879 Speaker 1: ways to get around email address stuff, or at least 744 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: there there were at this time. It's probably a little 745 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: tougher now. This company, Liberty Reserve, it grew to more 746 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,440 Speaker 1: than a million users before it was shut down in 747 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,919 Speaker 1: and regulators at the time called it the largest money 748 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,360 Speaker 1: laundering scheme in US history. They were actually able to 749 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: do this because of the Patriot Act, which gave them 750 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: powers They wouldn't ordinarily have to, um, you know, to 751 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: connect this with possible terrorism or drug drug running through 752 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 1: the trade of US currency abroad. But it was found 753 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:16,320 Speaker 1: basically be funding that, right, those exchanges were funding trafficking 754 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: of drugs and other things and terrorism at least in 755 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: the um overall Liberty Reserve and MIGHTUS gold Exchange. Yeah, yeah, Oh, 756 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: they weren't framed, Make no mistakes. It wasn't a stitch 757 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: up job. But it goes deeper than that, because at 758 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,280 Speaker 1: the same time the same gear Liberty Reserve is shut down, 759 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: Cotton and Patron founded Quadriga, And it goes deeper than that, 760 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,320 Speaker 1: Like dead pres says, it's deeper than wrap. It appears 761 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: that Cotton and Patron had been, as you said, Matt, 762 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: interacting on several other schemes through other forums, things like 763 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: black hat World, and as you mentioned talk gold, and 764 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: later investigations linked several handles to both men um In 765 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: Cotton's case, one was Scepter and the other was Murdoch 766 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: leet or you know, for people who don't use lead speak, 767 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: Murdoch one three three seven. Interestingly enough, Murdoch one three 768 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: three seven was active in August of nineteen months after 769 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: Cotton officially died. So you think that's him. Yeah, so 770 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: people who people who believe that he successfully faked his 771 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,759 Speaker 1: death will point to that as evidence of his activity. 772 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,240 Speaker 1: But again, with the anonymity of the Internet for most people, 773 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: is it possible that somebody else was just you know, 774 00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: just had his log in. That's definitely associated with him, 775 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,799 Speaker 1: like and for real okay, got it? Oh, yes, for real, Yeah, 776 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,880 Speaker 1: it's associated with him. If you want to learn more 777 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: about that again, go to UH search for Amy Castor's 778 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: work on it, which does does a great and thorough 779 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: job of of linking these together. And also Honorable mentioned 780 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,319 Speaker 1: to Crypto Capital mentioned them as one of the big processors. 781 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,280 Speaker 1: Their president was a guy named Ivan Manuel Molina Lee. 782 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have heard of him in 783 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: the news, folks, but he was most recently in the 784 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: news because he was arrested in Poland in twenty nineteen 785 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: in connection with money laundering being part of an international 786 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:30,359 Speaker 1: drug cartel. And if you look at the if you 787 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 1: look at the charges against him, he apparently is also 788 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: charged and cover up to hide the loss of eight 789 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:44,280 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars in client and corporate funds. Yeah. Yeah, 790 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,239 Speaker 1: So this example I think is important because we don't know, 791 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: we're being the public, don't know how deep these things go. 792 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: We don't know how much money is actually being moved around, 793 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,439 Speaker 1: and we don't know how these folks are or are 794 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,439 Speaker 1: not really did to each other in the world of crypto. Yeah, 795 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to I think I said this one. We 796 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: did the story in Strange News or listener mail rather. Um, 797 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,359 Speaker 1: I don't know that we've still yet have like a 798 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:16,839 Speaker 1: public sense of who the big crypto mafioso's are, you know, 799 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: who who the big players in the in the in 800 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 1: the crime world associated with crypto r um because even this, 801 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, UM, Jerry cotton Fellow very much not a 802 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,120 Speaker 1: household name. We all admitted that and didn't know about 803 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 1: until we heard about this um not Netflix documentary that 804 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,959 Speaker 1: was coming up and this guy Ivan Manuel Molina Lee. 805 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: I mean, he's accused of laundering tons and tons of 806 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:45,800 Speaker 1: money for international drug cartels using this crypto um format 807 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: called bit fine x um, which is run by the 808 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,399 Speaker 1: same company who created something called tether, which is a 809 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: one to one US D kind of um uh substitute. 810 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's it's peg to the US dollar. 811 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: So it's a way that I believe crypto people can like, 812 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,319 Speaker 1: you know, pay for things using tether because it's like 813 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: not the same value as a dollar um one to one. 814 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: And again I'm not an expert of it. I just 815 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of you know, know, it has to be dangerous, 816 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: but tether is very popular and it's something that's very like, 817 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, household and then at least in the crypto community. 818 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: So for that company to be associated with this guy, 819 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: I mean, what else is there? You know, who is 820 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: the Toshi Nakamoto? Right, No one officially knows um, but 821 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,840 Speaker 1: when there are, there are a couple of leads of 822 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: very incredibility, right or very implausibility. Yeah, I think this 823 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,560 Speaker 1: is this is an excellent example. Um. The world is 824 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 1: not entirely aware of how deep the rabbit hole goes here. 825 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,640 Speaker 1: This is a renaissance of money laundry at the very least, 826 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. These are the glory days. Uh, 827 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: that's what future financial criminals may well call them. So 828 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,120 Speaker 1: where are we act currently? As we said, it was 829 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: without saying that not everyone believes Gerald William Cotton has 830 00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: actually left the building. As a matter of fact, lawyers 831 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: had been pushing to have his his again official grave exhumed. Uh. 832 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,840 Speaker 1: This is a request that Canadian authorities have so far denied. 833 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 1: The Netflix documentary we mentioned at the top, Trust No One, 834 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,440 Speaker 1: The Hunt for the Crypto King, premieres in and it 835 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: plans to investigate the case following the built investors who 836 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: are searching for and I think us equivalent twenty two 837 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: d seventeen million dollars that Cotton himself is believed to 838 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,120 Speaker 1: have absconded with. But not everybody agrees. You'll find a 839 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,600 Speaker 1: lot of people who believe, yes, Cotton was a thief. 840 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 1: Maybe he was even addicted to the thrill of scamming. Uh. 841 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,879 Speaker 1: But they're kind of but they don't buy into the 842 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 1: theories that he could have faked his death. Instead, they're saying, yeah, 843 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 1: he was the thief and he also genuinely passed away 844 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,520 Speaker 1: unexpectedly on his honeymoon in India. And the thing you 845 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,839 Speaker 1: can say in the favor of folks holding that view 846 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,960 Speaker 1: is that it is incredibly difficult to commit pseudo side 847 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,320 Speaker 1: in a sustainable way. For further reading, checkout Elizabeth Greenwood's 848 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,720 Speaker 1: awesome book Playing Dead. Uh. And they're also two great 849 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: podcast we wanted to recommend that our deep dives into 850 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: this story. One of the first is Exit Scam and 851 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 1: that what's the uh what's the name of that second 852 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: one that we were tuning into. It's a CBC podcast 853 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 1: is called a Death in Crypto Land. Yeah. Yeah, and 854 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 1: they're they're good listens. Check them out. I mean to 855 00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:46,239 Speaker 1: be fully transparent. You know they're not. Um. This is 856 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,440 Speaker 1: not us plugging a podcast for anything other than the 857 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,320 Speaker 1: substance of it, especially if you're interested in this story. 858 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,560 Speaker 1: As far as the officials are concerned, the case of 859 00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:02,600 Speaker 1: the death is pretty much closed. But again a lot 860 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: of people who lost a lot of money are convinced 861 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,400 Speaker 1: there's more to this story. At this point, I have 862 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,400 Speaker 1: to ask you guys before we wrap that. Noel fellow 863 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 1: conspiracy realist tuning in, what do you think is cotton alive, 864 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,920 Speaker 1: Cotton passed beyond this mortal veil. I think he did it. 865 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 1: I think he's one of the few success stories of 866 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,400 Speaker 1: being able to properly do this, because again, part of 867 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: the crypto thing is like it being untraceable. We're not untraceable, 868 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,880 Speaker 1: but like you know, if you know the right people, 869 00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,960 Speaker 1: you can spend that money um without tipping off the 870 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: I R s and live off the grid, a different grid, 871 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,000 Speaker 1: but but off the main grid. If he is truly 872 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,959 Speaker 1: the genius guy than many believe he is, he did 873 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,960 Speaker 1: some things that would lead me to believe he faked 874 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,880 Speaker 1: his death. He got that cessna, he was getting his 875 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,560 Speaker 1: pilot slice as yours I need to fly. He got 876 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,000 Speaker 1: a boat, a yacht that he could you know, learned 877 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: how to pilot that thing or two drive that thing? 878 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:12,319 Speaker 1: What he uh? He also that that yacht is also 879 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,480 Speaker 1: highly customized in a way that could allow someone if 880 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 1: they if they are lucky, avoiding detection. It could allow 881 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:28,240 Speaker 1: someone to travel internationally without all those pesky border regulations. Yeah, 882 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,759 Speaker 1: but he his wife tried to sell it immediately after 883 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,919 Speaker 1: he died. Right. What what I'm thinking is he learned 884 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: the skills to be able to fly and to you know, 885 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,800 Speaker 1: drive a boat, like he knows how to do this now. 886 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,640 Speaker 1: And if he's got enough of this money in cash form, 887 00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,600 Speaker 1: then he's traveling around the world. He can make use 888 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 1: of it and travel between countries, perhaps in a more 889 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,680 Speaker 1: quiet manner. Uh. He also allegedly was traveling around the world, 890 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:02,640 Speaker 1: perhaps allegedly leaving money in various accounts. Again, if you 891 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,960 Speaker 1: believe that, that's part of the Mastermind story, like you 892 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 1: believe him to be a Mastermind criminal, I don't know. 893 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,319 Speaker 1: I'm certainly intrigued by the whole thing. And if you're 894 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: as intrigued as I am, like, like we said, there's 895 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,360 Speaker 1: stuff for you to check out, to continue down the 896 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,400 Speaker 1: rabbit hole. If you want to reach out to us 897 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: and tell us what you think, you can find us 898 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,520 Speaker 1: all over the internet, boy, can't you. Ever, We don't 899 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,480 Speaker 1: make it hard at all to find us. He can 900 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,680 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, 901 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,640 Speaker 1: you can find us on YouTube at the handle Conspiracy Stuff. 902 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 1: We're also at the Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. And 903 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:36,840 Speaker 1: if you don't want to get on the internet at all, 904 00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: why not to pick up a telephone give us a 905 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: call using your hands and mouths yes. So number is 906 00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,440 Speaker 1: one eight three three std w y t K. When 907 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: you call in, give yourself a cool nickname. You've got 908 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 1: three minutes to say whatever you'd like. If you've got 909 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: more that you'd like to send to us that can't 910 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: fit into those three minutes, we highly recommend you instead 911 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,080 Speaker 1: send us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy 912 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:20,960 Speaker 1: at i heart rate dot com. Stuff they don't want 913 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,360 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 914 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 915 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 916 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:29,760 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.