WEBVTT - Are You an Enabler? Ask Dr. Ramani 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:05.000 Hey, navigators, on this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm answering 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:09.520 all of your burning questions about enabling. Believe it or not, 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:14.120 the problem with narcissism doesn't end with the narcissistic person. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.480 There is an equally toxic presence afoot and these people 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:25.640 are known as enablers. From Red Table Talk podcasts and iHeartMedia, 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:30.440 I am Doctor Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.559 podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.680 or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.720 medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.319 with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:52.360 health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The views 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.840 and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:02.040 or individuals participating in the po and do not represent 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:07.320 the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.839 Sherry writes, last week, my sister told me I'm enabling 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.680 my mom's narcissism. I know my mom can be difficult, 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.120 but I don't think I enable her. What does that 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:25.000 even mean? Okay, so there's a few pieces to this one. First, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.679 let's talk about what enabling is within the context of 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:34.959 a narcissistic relationship. Enabling is the at times silent and 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:41.320 sometimes active, not simply avoidance and not addressing the narcissistic 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:47.039 person's behavior, but also doubting or even gaslighting the experiences 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.000 or reactions other people are having to the narcissistic person. 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.320 In essence, what the enabling person does is they reinforce 0:01:55.560 --> 0:02:00.080 reward and allow the narcissistic person to maintain there be 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.320 Enablers may or may not clearly see what's going on, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.040 but they justify it or poo poo it in a 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.040 way they can actually do a lot of harm to 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.520 these survivors. As it were, In these situations, people wonder 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.840 like why why do enablers do this? Well, it serves 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.240 a lot of functions for the enabler. For some enablers, 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.280 above all else, it allows them to maintain the status quo. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.480 We can keep pretending we're a very happy family, or 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:28.600 I don't need to deal with a fight at the 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.520 Thanksgiving dinner. It's a way of just keeping things sort 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.920 of artificially stable. And because the narcissistic person tends to 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.600 be the most volatile in the system. If you can 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.360 keep them appeased, then usually the system will keep working. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.280 And then the sacrifice and all of that are obviously 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.640 the people getting harmed by the narcissistic person, But for 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.400 the enablers, a lot of it is about status quo. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.040 We're going to get into the types of enablers that 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.799 will also help you understand why it is the enablers 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.960 do what they do. Keep this in mind, this sort 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:05.440 of term enabling came out of the addiction literature. It 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.320 was used there and it sort of was related to 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.919 other concepts like codependency. But what was happening was that 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.320 people who are considered enabling in that space where people 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:19.000 would do things like overlook the drinking or drug behavior, 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.840 keep alcohol in the house, keep giving the addict money, 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.600 so these behaviors that would allow the addictive behavior to 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.880 continue unquestioningly. And it all represented in some ways a 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.720 form of denial, because one of the pieces that's happening 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.120 at the core of enabling is some form of denial. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.560 Either it's active denial I just want to not see 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.000 this as happening because I don't like how this looks, 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.600 or it's passive denial. They simply aren't aware of it. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.600 I even can say personally. I remember a friend of mine, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.080 who is one of the most lovely human beings I've 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.600 ever met in my life, has a little bit of 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.280 an enabling streak, and one day said, you know why 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.040 I don't like what you talk about, because if I 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.600 really listen to it, it's going to mean I have 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.720 to look at some stuff happening around me, and I 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.800 don't want to do that. And I thought that was 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:12.480 such an honest assessment. I said, that's fine, but never 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.720 guesslight someone who's going through it. So we were able 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.080 to have an open and honest, enabling conversation. Enablers aren't 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:21.839 necessarily bad people, and that's what makes it so complicated. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.719 So let's talk a little bit about the different types 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.280 of enablers. One type of enabler is just a Pollyanna, 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:32.120 like everything's just great, and aren't we all getting along 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.000 and aren't we all friendly? It's a little bit immature, 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.200 kind of head in the clouds, And so the Pollyanna 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.120 enablers are just sort of people who just I think 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.040 there's just good in everyone, and you're thinking, I kind 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.840 of believe that. But this interaction wasn't Okay, so they 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.320 kind of take that good in everyone thing a little 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.360 bit too far. When we sort of push the accelerator 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.200 on the Pollyannas, we're taken to the toxically positive people. Now, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.480 the toxically positive people will shame other people who aren't 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.240 being positive, like I don't like this energy, I don't 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.680 like this word narcissism. I don't like that, you know what. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.400 They have their own story and we have to hold 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.080 space for their story, like what, Okay, they keep lying 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.400 and betraying people, but if that's how you want to 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.600 frame it, the toxically positive enablers are a bit more 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.720 dangerous than a Pollyanna enablers because they tend to shame 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.760 the survivors and say, you're not being positive. This is 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.280 a you issue. Maybe if you were nicer, they would 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.280 be nicer too, that kind of thing. Then there are 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.840 what I call the transactional enablers. These are the enablers 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.240 that are somehow benefiting from the narcissistic relationship. This could 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.720 be money, this could be resources, this could be status, 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.720 it could be tuition, it could be a car. Whatever 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.240 it is, they're very much benefiting. And while they're not 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.600 transparent about it say, hey, I'm ignoring their behavior because 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.840 I'm getting a car out of this. There is this discomfort, 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.800 sort of dissonance that they know, like I don't want 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.480 to burn this bridge. I'm getting stuff from this narcissistic person, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.160 so I don't want to know it. I don't want 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.120 to see it. It is sort of this active I 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.960 don't want to see this because then the implication would 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.560 be it could sort of throw off this transactional structure 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.479 they have with this narcissistic person. Again may not be 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.560 happening consciously, but keeping that status quo and not burning 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:26.679 that bridge. There are also trauma bonded enablers. These folks 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.560 are tricky because you may have tremendous empathy for them. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.880 You yourself were probably there with the narcissist yourself at 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.119 one point. Then you saw it, you did the work, 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.919 you did the healing, you're more clear on it. The 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.720 trauma bonded enabler is enabling the narcissistic person by justifying 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:47.080 their behavior, by giving it a free pass, by doing 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.560 all the things that trauma bonded people do, minimizing their behavior, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:55.240 and may in some cases even gaslight you. Because for 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:59.039 the trauma bonded person, it is still about maintaining that 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:03.279 tie in that case con to this harmful narcissistic person. 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.000 For the trauma bonded enablers, this process is really unconscious. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.840 These are often people you actually may very much care 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.560 about or love. Where this dynamic gets the most tricky 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.080 is if the trauma bonded enabler is your other parent. 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.840 So you have a narcissistic parent, and then the other 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.400 parent was trauma bonded to that parent, so they were 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.480 enabling their stuff. Now, that trauma bonded parent might have 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:31.320 been very loving to you, very sweet to you, really 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.240 was actually the only bright light in your childhood, but 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.520 they did keep giving the narcissistic parent a free pass, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.280 which did leave you confused. You go into adulthood, the 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.960 enabling becomes clear to you, and then you might have 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.520 a very complex set of emotions about that trauma bonded 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.840 enabling parent, feeling like how could they have led us 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.560 twist in the wind like this? Why don't they see it? 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.680 And while you may have empathy for their trauma bondedness 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.160 and you may feel guilt about being angry at them, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.040 you may feel very angry at a person who's a 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.480 trauma bonded enabler, especially if their presence really influence your 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:12.800 development in your life. Now, listen, some trauma bonded folks 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.400 may be mildly narcissistic themselves, so they may not even 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.360 take note of the entitlement and the grandiosity and the 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.640 arrogance is a thing like get over yourself, you know 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.400 that kind of thing. The mildly narcissistic folks also don't 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.840 have that much empathy for you, So their lack of 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.360 empathy combined with the sense that this behavior might actually 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.600 be okay, can mean those folks can be enablers. And 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.840 then there are cultural issues, and when it comes to enabling, 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.280 the cultural stuff is really really important. When we think 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.240 of cultures where it's family first and everything stays within 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.720 the family and don't talk about our family business out 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.600 of here. The person that does break ranks and might 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.560 go to therapy or want to actually call out abusive 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.280 stuff in the family, that person will be viewed as 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.800 the problem, whereas the family close ranks and protect the 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.480 narcissistic person. It may not even be that the family 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.880 doesn't see the narcissistic person's behavior is bad, but whatever 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.280 sort of cultural rules of order there are. Maybe they 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.360 might be sort of patriarchal qualities, They may be related 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.720 to other sort of authoritarian structures, may simply be cultures 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.839 where again it's family first at all costs. That at 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.800 those times, people will often report feeling very gaslighted and 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.480 very confused, because they'll say, people know this person's bad, 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.040 they're all talking smack inside the family system, but we're 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:35.760 just not allowed to go and get help for that. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.480 And that can leave people in this very confused spot. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.880 Can I get help? Can I talk about this? Am 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.720 I the bad person for talking about this? Don't forget 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:49.040 about the flying monkeys. The flying monkeys are absolutely a 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.480 form of enabler that is a much more active enabler, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.160 and even in a more terrible level. Not only do 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.480 the flying monkeys enable the narcissist, they attack on their behalf. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:05.319 The smear campaigns, spreading gossip, holding up rumors and innuendo 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:10.319 coming at you, bothering you, stalking you, harassing you. So 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:14.600 to me, the flying monkey maybe the worst form of enabler. 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.199 Let me tell you, When a narcissistic person has flying monkeys, 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.520 they feel so emboldened because now they literally have someone 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.160 out there doing their bidding. The flying monkeys are the 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.800 type of enablers that may very well cause the most harm. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.920 As you can imagine, some of these enabling patterns overlap. 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:35.959 But the point again I want to make is the 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:39.199 reason enabling is so insidious is that there are people 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.400 in your life you really adore and say, this person's 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:46.120 actually very empathic, very nice, has been a good loyal friend. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.280 But where the cracks began to show was when I 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.680 was talking about maybe a mutual narcissistic person in our lives, 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.959 and the enabler was more likely to jump to the 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:01.400 narcissistic person's defense. They'll say they're still empathic, I'm still 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.520 cool with them around everything except this one relationship. And 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.800 you can see then how in some ways enabling relationships 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:13.240 can be even more confusing than the narcissistic ones. In 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:18.200 our next question, Glenn asks, I feel like I'm losing 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.560 my mind. I know my brother is a narcissist and 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.440 uses every opportunity to gaslight me. The people around him 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:30.080 know how difficult he is, but they never call him out. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.920 I'm so sick of the that's just how he is. 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.679 Come on, Glenn, let it go be the bigger person. 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.760 So in Glenn's case, here is that all these people 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.839 around him again, it's that status quo that's such a 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:51.760 big part of the enabling process, that it's not that 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.720 they want to hurt you, but that they don't want 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:59.120 the system to get cracked or in some cases have 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.600 to face up with what they already know is an 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.520 uncomfortable truth, but it's almost like something that they don't 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.800 want to deal with, looking at as any of us 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.000 sometimes don't want to when we're in a close relationship 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.120 with someone where we've invested time in years and feel like, oh, 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.840 I really don't want this to be true of this person. 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:22.200 So what happens is in Glenn's case, who's Glenn is 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.400 losing his mind? Glenn knows something to be true, that 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:33.400 his brother's behavior is unacceptable, unhealthy, and frankly toxic. But 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.680 what's making it worse is that the people around him. 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.600 It's almost worse gaslighting because you're with the narcissistic person, 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.200 You're like, Okay, they're gaslighting me. But when the enablers 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.000 are saying, let it go, it's just how he is, 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.600 or you be the bigger person. The implication when somebody 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.440 tells you to be the bigger person. Is that if 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.840 you call this person out, then you're being a smaller person. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:02.640 That's gaslighting. The thing within neighbor is to stay solid 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.760 within yourself that you're very clear in what's happening in 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.560 the narcissistic relationship. Have other sort of what I call 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.160 gaslight free zones in your life where you can talk 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.680 to people and say, this is what my brother did. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:18.839 Can you tell me what you think of it? And 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:23.280 those people say that is not okay. You then will 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:28.240 feel perhaps more steadfast in the face of the people 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.680 who are telling you that you're the problem because you 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.559 won't let it go, that you need to be the 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.400 bigger person, or they sort of rationalize the behavior by 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.880 saying that's just how he is. If I can give 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.760 you one piece of guidance, now, how I always tell 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.920 you don't call out the narcissist. Double that, and don't 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.360 try to convert the enablers. It is so tempting. They 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.800 may ask you, what's this narcissism thing you're talking about? Say, well, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.480 it's when a person doesn't have empathy and is entitled 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.559 la la la la la. You give them the list. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.760 The other person may not and say okay, cool and 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.880 keep going. You may plant to see, but this idea 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.520 of you need to see that my brother is narcissistic, 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.760 that's not going to work. If anything, by pushing your 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.640 experience at them in your assessment of the situation, they're 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.960 probably going to double down on No, you're the one 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.880 who's the problem. They're not ready to see Glenn's brother 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.360 in a clear light or at least understand Glenn's point 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.880 of view. For many folks, for a lot of enablers, 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:38.160 they actually know that the behavior that the narcissistic person 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.600 is engaging in is toxic. But they don't want to 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.160 poke the bear. They don't want to deal with it, 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:48.040 and that not wanting to deal with it. I struggle 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.080 with that because in the not wanting to deal with it, 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.280 people who are really enduring a lot of abuse have 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.280 to keep enduring more because nobody is willing to step 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.160 up to the plate. Here's one thing we do know. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.360 There is strength in numbers. When multiple people recognize that 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.920 something's not okay. It's not going to change the narcissistic 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.080 person's behavior. But the people who are all sharing amongst 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:15.720 themselves this isn't okay. You feel heard, and you feel seen, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.800 and all of those are essential ingredients sort of letting 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.440 this go and healing. So I feel for Glenn, and 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.200 I understand why why Glenn is losing his mind. What 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.200 Glenn needs is some gaslight free zones to at least 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.800 have a sounding board and recognize that you're not going 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:34.040 to be able to turn these enablers around overnight. The 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.040 best thing that many people can do in a situation 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.640 like this is just say, you know why, I'm struggling 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.360 with my brother's behavior, because he did this, Because he 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.760 did this, and because he did this, stick to observable behavior. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.040 They're still probably going to gaslight you instead of making 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.800 it about your brother's narcissism. So to stick to the 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.640 behaviors and you'd be surprised maybe a few people will 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.440 come around. One of the worst positions to be in 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.680 is to be the first person in a group or 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.560 a fan family to be the one who recognizes that 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.200 the narcissistic person may very well be narcissistic. It's a 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.960 little bit like the Boy and the Emperor's and your clothes, right. 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.320 He was the first one to probably say it. Maybe 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:15.720 the other people in the parade knew the emperor wasn't 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.520 wearing any clothes. The boy saw it and got it 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.760 and said it. To be the first person to see 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:26.680 it is actually not particularly an enviable position, because you 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.600 may doubt your judgment about it, if you have your 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.120 own trauma bonds and your own history with this person, 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.320 if you feel like by saying this, you're going to 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.360 kind of up end a fantasy about this being a 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.040 happy family or a great place to work or something 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.320 like that. So it's a lot of guilt for people 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.560 who say, I don't want to be the one who 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.720 punctures the hole in the balloon that everybody really cares about. 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.560 But in the same breath, you may also see not 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.680 only the toll that is taking on you, but on 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.840 other people in the system. If you are the first 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.360 person who gets it, the most important thing you can 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.520 do is find sounding boards that might be therapy. It 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.600 may be so groups, It may simply be friends who've 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.040 seen it for a long time and might say glad 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.960 you finally got up with that. And I have to say, 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.280 as a therapist who's worked in this space, I remember 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.720 many years ago saying someone was sharing me with me 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.240 about a sibling. I said, whoh, your brother sounds narcissistic, 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.840 and it was actually a bad thing I did. The 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.800 person's behavior was so egregious I couldn't let it slip. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.159 That was a bad therapist moment of mine, and I said, oh, 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:31.040 your brother's narcissistic. And the client just reeled back and 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:35.560 said come again and didn't like it because they weren't ready. 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.400 And so that was a real lesson for me. Now. Interestingly, 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.199 years later that person said, you know, you were the 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.679 first person who ever saw it. I didn't take that 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.320 as congratulations. I saw that as trying to rush someone. 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.480 In a point of view, my work at that point 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.480 is a therapist, and actually for anyone, even as a friend, 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.959 would be how do you feel, how does their behavior 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.600 affect you? Tell me more about those behaviors, helping them 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.680 create a vocabulary about how this behavior is affecting them. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.840 It's so tempting to say that's a narcissist, but it 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.160 actually doesn't do anyone any favors unless we can really 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.000 frame it and think about it in terms of how 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:17.080 this behavior is affecting us. We will be right back 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:28.359 with this conversation in our next question. Alina writes, do 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:35.960 all narcissists have enablers, not necessarily, but you almost have 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:40.080 to view a narcissist as a plant and the enablers 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:44.399 as water. Without that water, that plant is going to 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:51.000 wither and die. And without enablers, a narcissistic person's grandiosity 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.120 and posturing and all of that will fade. You may wonder, then, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.000 what's left If a narcissist doesn't have enablers. You may 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.160 see anger, you may see acting out, You may even 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.280 see maladaptive behaviors like addiction, and in some cases you 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.840 may even see depression. An example of this would be 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.840 someone like the character of the Joker, who was somebody 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:17.560 who wasn't getting that validation. He didn't have anyone close 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.800 to him, didn't have family, didn't have an audience, and 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.399 it just really sort of ate him up from the 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.679 inside out. It's actually an interesting illustration of them, but 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:33.320 most narcissistic people do. Keep in mind, narcissistic people are charming, 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:38.080 they're charismatic, they're sociable, they're extroverted. Many people want to 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.720 be close to them, and as a result, they often 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.480 do have a rather robust social network. They do great 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.640 on social media. They post all the time. Everybody likes 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.120 their stuff. A lot of people want to be near 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:53.240 them so as long as they're getting validation as well 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.560 as have people around them who not only validate them 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.040 but let them get away with stuff. The narcissistic a 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.359 person is adequately supplied, they might even feel well regulated, 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.560 and they go through their lives quite contentedly. But not 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.440 all do. And some people have enablers and then they 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.520 lose enablers. We might see this in older adults, people 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.560 who once had marriages and children and jobs. They may 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:20.480 get older, they may leave the job, they may get 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.000 pushed out of the job. The kids may have burned 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.800 all their bridges with the parents saying enough's enough. They 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.919 may get divorced, their partner may predecease them, partner may 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.040 completely cut off from them, and in later life. What 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.600 you might see, and I've seen this over and over 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.960 again in the family systems of hundreds of clients I've 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.200 worked with, is that the narcissistic parent who no longer 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.280 has their enablers really kind of goes off to a 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:50.720 very angry, lonely, isolated older age, and they may actually 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.840 have difficulty finding placements for them in assisted living or 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.160 other kinds of facilities. Because they can often be rather 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.119 difficult and combative, so it's not a pretty picture. And 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:04.640 you see a narcissistic person without enablers, most do not 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.879 all do, and when they don't, they actually don't do 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.280 well because there's nobody any longer propping up their behavior 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.440 and letting them get away with stuff. And without enablers, 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.760 there's no one making excuses, so even as new people 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.040 come in, they'll say this is bad, and there's no 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.760 one saying no, no, no, you're reading the situation wrong. 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.159 So enablers are not only sources of validation, they're also 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.520 sources of excuses, and when those things go away, the 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.760 narcissistic person loses a lot of their power. Many keep 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.800 their enablers their whole lives, especially if they're from family 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.680 systems where it's not okay to step away. And also 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.600 people who may have a lot of wealth and power 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.240 and privilege may continue to have enablers around them, a 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:53.840 bit like vultures circling something because everyone's waiting for their 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.040 piece of the pie, so they may continue to have 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:59.800 enablers around them that prop them up, perhaps waiting for 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.479 the reward on the other side. Jonah says, I have 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:08.000 recently realized my dad is a covert narcissist. This has 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.440 helped me understand so much about my family. But I'm 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.040 having a tough time with feelings towards my mom. I 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.120 realize I'm very hurt and angry at her for protecting him, 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:23.000 defending him, staying with him, and giving up her joy 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:26.480 and happiness for a terrible marriage. How can I work 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:30.639 through my hurt and anger while still maintaining a relationship 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.640 with my mom? So Jonah's question is one of the 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.680 most complicated ones we see around enabling relationships, because, as 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:42.600 I said, the enablers in our lives may be people 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:47.160 who are very important to us, who we do love, 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.359 and who we've actually seen suffer. In Jonah's case, his 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:52.919 mother definitely sounds like she had a rough time in 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.480 this relationship and that she gave up her life, She 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:59.120 gave up her joy, she gave up her happiness. It's 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:01.280 not like the mom had an easy ride, whereas the 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:03.879 father probably just got away with a lot. Mom just 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.679 endured a lot. However, her endurance became a form of 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:12.440 enabling that hurt Jonah. It would have shaped Jonah's developmental experience. 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.199 Jonah is hurt and anger absolutely makes sense. But for 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.800 a lot of folks in Jonah's position, there's also a 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:22.080 tremendous amount of guilt. My mother's already suffered so much. 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.919 My mother's already given up so much joy, so much happiness, 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.560 and now I'm one more person piling on This is 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.000 where this concept. I've talked about this on Navigating narcissism before, 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.679 and I'll talk about it over and over again, is 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:39.919 this concept of these stacked up multiple truths. Multiple things 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:44.199 can be true. Jonah likely loves his mom. Jonah is 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:48.320 hurt by his mom's enabling Jonah is angry. Jonah may 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.439 very well feel guilty. What's he supposed to do with this? 0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:55.280 All of this stuff can coexist. Being angry at his 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.800 mother doesn't mean he can't have a relationship with her. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:03.280 Like Jonah, Actually there's a benefit if it's possible to 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.320 go to therapy with your mother. We often don't think 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.240 of that as adults. It's actually going to therapy with 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.359 the covert narcissistic father makes absolutely no sense. But with 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:16.199 his mother having that if you will, referee or a 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.919 sort of guidance in the room, could really be a 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:23.680 place where Jonah feels safer sharing his anger. Mom, after 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.840 years of a marriage to a covert, vulnerable narcissist, has 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:31.360 probably learned to swallow her feelings and will just capitulate 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:34.600 her husband's anger. A therapist could be a great place 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:39.320 for Jonah's mom to make sort of her experience more understood. 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.760 And it's very very likely that Jonah's mother feels a 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:47.040 tremendous amount of grief and regret over what happened, but 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:49.720 may not feel that she has the vocabulary to express it. 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:53.760 And keep in mind, after however, many decades of invalidation 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:58.040 Jonah's mother experience in her marriage, she probably doesn't even 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:04.480 feel justified hearing her voice her feelings herself separate from 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:08.600 her husband. So it's possible, and the hard part becomes 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:10.919 how do you maintain a relationship with someone when you 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:15.240 have such a complicated mix of hurt, anger, guilt, and love. 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:20.320 It's small steps and it's good boundaries. I wouldn't advise 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:22.440 Jonah his mom to go on a two week vacation, 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:27.240 but taking little bits of time doing it separate from 0:25:27.240 --> 0:25:30.440 his father, and that might be a really important ask 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:32.280 for Jonah. Say, if we're going to spend time together 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.160 I don't want him around, and that's a very fair ask, 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:38.960 and to slowly have those opportunities of getting to know 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:41.639 each other. Jonah may feel that there are limits, that 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:43.919 some of his hurt and anger might mean that he 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:46.280 can only go so deep with his mother. He may 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.520 not fully trust her and the loss of whether it 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.600 be respect or regard he had for his mom for 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:56.119 staying in this in the harm that came to him. Again, 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.199 there's only so deep he may be able to go, 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:01.520 which is why also individual therapy in these cases can 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:05.080 be really really important. Just because someone was an enabler 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:07.240 in your life, especially the one that was a parent, 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.439 doesn't mean that there's not a path forward. There absolutely is, 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:13.800 and honestly, in giving a name to these feelings instead 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:17.680 of just staying mired and guilt, but understanding that this 0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:21.520 is a really complicated mix of hurt and anger and 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:26.040 grief and guilt and love can mean that there's a 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:30.439 possibility for a conversation, but it's slow. The boundaries have 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:33.920 to be good, you have to trust yourself, and if 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:36.800 it's possible to have someone guiding you in this process 0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:41.919 like a therapist, could be incredibly helpful. Alexandra asks About 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:44.560 a year ago, I stopped speaking to my friend who 0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:48.160 is a narcissist. Since then, some of our mutual friends, 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:51.520 people I care for deeply told me I should make 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:57.159 amends and reconnect with this narcissistic person. Are they considered enablers? 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:00.720 And how should I respond when they say this? So 0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:04.000 to Alexandra, the thing that I would want to know 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:08.040 is have your friends actually listened to your experience to 0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:10.639 what happened for you. It's not I can't imagine you 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.280 woke up one day and said, Hey, this person in 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:17.040 our friend group is narcissistic. Out. My guess is lots 0:27:17.040 --> 0:27:19.879 of things happened over a long time that led you 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:23.600 to come to this assessment. Are your friends aware of this? Listen? 0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:27.280 It's not your job to be the narcissism education police, 0:27:27.640 --> 0:27:31.400 but to give them context may help them understand why 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:35.359 you've stepped away. One of the dangers in groups of 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:38.080 people is when we say I want nothing to do 0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.480 with them they're a narcissist. A lot of people still 0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:44.160 don't know what this means, and so they're thinking, what, 0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:46.040 you don't like her because she looks in the mirror 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.119 a lot and post selfies. No, that's not what the 0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:51.719 issue is. And so if you were to break it 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:56.000 down and say, listen, this person, this happened, this happened, 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:58.720 this happened, this happened. That left me feeling this, this, 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:01.720 and this, and it is not a healthy space for me. 0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:05.520 That's a very different conversation than saying this friend is 0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:08.680 a narcissist. It can put you on your back heel 0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:10.600 because now people are saying, well, you're the one who's 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:14.000 name calling and it's not really that. But by painting 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:17.520 out a more behavioral picture and an experiential picture of 0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:21.959 what you went through, your friends potentially may come up 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:25.560 with more empathy. Now, Alexandra, let's say you've done that, 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:30.000 You've explained all of this to them and said what happened, 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.399 and they're still saying you should make amends and reconnect. 0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:36.240 Not great, that feels more inably, It really comes down 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:38.600 to how much information they have. They have a full 0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:42.000 working knowledge of what happened, and they're pushing you to 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:45.480 do this. I would then really say that you think 0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:48.840 through again that status quo. They may just want things 0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:50.920 to be the way they were. They might find themselves 0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:53.480 tired of having to be your friend and her friend 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:56.280 and kind of having to keep things separate. But if 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:59.760 you can have that conversation and they're aware, but if 0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:02.880 they still hold their position, yeah, despite all those things 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:05.360 that she did, Yep, you still need to make amends 0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:08.120 if you feel up to it. And Alexandra, I don't 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:10.240 know that you'd want to. Some do, some don't. Is 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:12.239 to say, what is this to you? Why is it 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.000 so important to you that this happens? If they give 0:29:15.040 --> 0:29:19.240 you some ephemeral while everyone should forgive to move forward, 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:22.200 that's not an answer. Hold their feet to the fire. 0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:24.400 See if they tell you what's really on their mind. 0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:28.480 A good friend may be disappointed that a friend group 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:31.800 has split up. A really good friend will say, yeah, 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:33.880 I'm bummed out that we're not all one group, but 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:37.040 I understand that you need to do what feels right 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:40.760 to you and I got you, and then proceed to 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:43.120 maybe even have the conversation. Are you comfortable that they're 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:46.160 still friends with that other person? Some people can toe 0:29:46.200 --> 0:29:49.760 that line, but it really requires that your friend can 0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:53.560 really be able to appreciate and empathize with your point 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:58.120 of view. Gina says, my father is my mom's enabler. 0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:02.720 Anytime I bring up her behavior, or even read direct 0:30:02.760 --> 0:30:06.560 quotes she's texted to me. He denies it or says 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:09.880 the classic she didn't mean it like that. I'm at 0:30:09.880 --> 0:30:13.000 the point I need to go no contact with my mom, 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.800 but I'm so afraid i'll lose my dad too. How 0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:20.280 do I navigate this? Oh, Gina, isn't one of those 0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:23.800 catch twenty two's that these narcissistic situations bring up all 0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:27.200 the time in a family. You know, right from the jump, 0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:30.200 you can see how enablers, how their gaslighting can be 0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:34.280 just as potent as the gaslighting of the narcissistic person. 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:38.800 She's reading direct quotes to the dad from the text 0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:42.200 or showing him the tax and he's saying, she didn't 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:44.360 mean it like that, didn't mean it like what? How 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:47.040 do you know? It's really dangerous And I'm just gonna 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.040 go on a little bit of a side rant here. 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:52.520 One of the most dangerous things any of us can 0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:58.040 do is to draw a conclusion about a person's intention. 0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:02.160 Anytime we do that, nine times out of ten, we 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:05.520 make a mess out of a relationship. You do not 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:08.560 know what is going on in someone's head. I get 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:11.480 paid to do this, and I don't know what's going 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:15.320 on in someone's head, I ask them, and I highly 0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:18.840 would recommend you do the same. So unless Dad has 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:23.040 gone to Mom to get her to decode her toxic text, 0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:28.120 dad doesn't know now and he doesn't know. But again 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.280 that's status quo. Enablers wanting to keep everything just the 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:33.920 way it is, is that he's going to say whatever 0:31:33.960 --> 0:31:37.240 he needs to say to be able to keep Mom 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:39.880 on the good side of the fence. The challenge with 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:42.480 enablers is that there's a sort of a simplification they're 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:47.280 trying to engage in. It's really, really hard when you 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:50.600 have someone in your life who's narcissistic that you have 0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:53.080 no intention of removing from your life, and then you 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.719 have somebody who's being hurt by that narcissistic person, and 0:31:56.800 --> 0:31:58.720 you don't want to get rid of both of those 0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:01.360 people or you don't want to lose them, right, and 0:32:01.400 --> 0:32:04.680 you're trying to be in that sort of middle place 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.120 between the two. If I can give all of you 0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:10.360 one piece of guidance, if you find yourself in that situation, 0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:15.520 do not be the narcissistic person's publicist, because that, in 0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:21.720 essence is what enabling is. Let the narcissist make their mistakes, 0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:24.960 they're not your mistakes. And if that means this other 0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:29.320 person is like that behavior is not okay. Your role 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:34.280 then becomes to foster a relationship with the person being 0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:37.800 hurt by the narcissist that helps that person feel heard 0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:44.040 and seen and recognized and empathized with. It is possible. 0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:48.000 Is it easy? No? But if you care about someone enough, 0:32:48.400 --> 0:32:51.320 you'll figure out how to do it. Doesn't mean you're 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:55.200 kicking the narcissistic person to the curb, but to keep 0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:57.000 them in your life doesn't mean you have to kick 0:32:57.040 --> 0:33:00.360 the other person to the curb. Just remember that. But 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:04.520 in this person's case, that she's now feeling like I 0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:08.360 can't do this with Mom anymore. And here's where this 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:10.720 gets tricky. I'm happy to say we're gonna be taken 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:14.000 on your no contact questions as well, because no contact 0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:17.840 is its own kind of complex sort of space. But 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:21.520 this idea that will I lose Dad if I go 0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:25.120 no contact with Mom? I wish I could sugarcoat that here, 0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.800 But the answer to that is you might if Dad 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:33.120 is really trauma bonded with and really committed to being 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:37.120 Mom's enabler. When you lose a narcissistic person. When you 0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:40.479 put down that absolute boundary, it's not about one person. 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.440 There's often a lot of other people you may lose 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:47.200 as well. In some ways, also becomes an uncomfortable place 0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:49.920 because people don't like to give ultimatums. But in the 0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:53.480 same breath, is Dad willing to In essence, it sort 0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:56.080 of feels like he'd be sneaking behind Mom's back to 0:33:56.120 --> 0:34:00.080 see you. I cannot tell you how many people I 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.040 have walked through the space of is there a way 0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:04.960 to kind of keep both? One thing I can say 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:08.719 to Gina, Gina, if Dad matters that much to you, 0:34:09.320 --> 0:34:12.799 stop showing Dad the Mom texts, because what you're going 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.319 to then have to realize is that a relationship with 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:20.120 Dad means that you don't talk about Mom. He is 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:23.000 not your ally in that space. He is not your 0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:25.880 advocate in that space, and he does not want to 0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:29.560 see it. If you can have a relationship with Dad 0:34:29.920 --> 0:34:32.600 and carve out that piece of talking about Mom, if 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.480 you think you can do that, you can have Dad 0:34:35.520 --> 0:34:38.240 in your life on that limited basis. And if Dad 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:41.440 starts bringing Mom up, Hey, we're having a nice time. 0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:44.440 Maybe next time Mom could come, then you set the 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:46.960 boundary and say no, I love you, Dad, I want 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:48.920 to spend time with you. I don't want to spend 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:52.799 time with her. It can feel painful if ultimately Dad 0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:56.040 sort of start stepping back because Mom is actually going 0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:58.520 at him. How dare you get together with her? Because 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:00.400 you know Dad's going to be foolish enough tell her 0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:03.279 the truth. But at the end of the day, if 0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:05.680 he does, you gotta remember your dad can make his 0:35:05.719 --> 0:35:09.040 own choices, and it's painful if you feel that you're 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:12.480 on the losing side of that choice. Brittany wrote, I've 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.600 just left the narcissistic boss I worked for for nearly 0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:20.359 twenty years. As part of my healing, I'm realizing I 0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:24.080 was enabling a lot of toxic behavior. How do I 0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:29.360 process the fact that my behavior hurt a lot of people? Brittany, 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:32.920 That's a tough one. So this actually is a spot 0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:35.640 where I can talk about something that is sometimes termed 0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:41.720 moral injury. Moral injury is the negative emotions that occur 0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:46.960 when a person believes that they have done something bad 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:51.399 that hurts someone else. It's an experience. It almost feels 0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:56.360 like post traumatic stress that we have when we feel 0:35:56.440 --> 0:35:59.360 as though we were doing something Often in the line 0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:03.760 of our or our work that ended up with people 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:07.240 getting harmed. So it might be somebody having followed orders 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:11.240 exactly as they were supposed to, but by following orders, 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:15.520 a person or many people got hurt, and although on 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:19.839 paper the person did the right thing, those people got hurt, 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:23.600 and the person experiencing moral injury will feel responsible for this. 0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:26.160 One of the strongest examples we had of this was 0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:29.239 in the pandemic, where a lot of healthcare workers when 0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:32.280 we didn't have enough PPE, we didn't have enough beds, 0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:35.320 we didn't have enough spaces in emergency rooms, were actually 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:37.440 feeling that the kinds of decisions they were having to 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:41.160 make could have ended up resulting in significantly worse illness 0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.640 or even death for people, and they felt a sense 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:45.879 of moral injury. It wasn't their fault, there wasn't enough 0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:48.400 PPE and gloves and masks and all of that stuff, 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:51.440 but that the people were getting sicker or dying. That 0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:53.880 a lot of healthcare workers took that upon themselves, And 0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:56.839 there's now research showing that that happened for people at 0:36:56.840 --> 0:37:01.759 that time, and the way we carry moral injury ourselves psychologically, again, 0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:03.920 it looks a lot like post traumatic stress, a lot 0:37:03.920 --> 0:37:07.319 of anxiety, a lot of rumination, a sort of a 0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:10.719 sense of vigilance, attention, a self blame. It's an incredibly 0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:15.480 and comfortable space to occupy. And in this case, Britney 0:37:15.719 --> 0:37:19.440 recognizes that in my job, doing my job, probably being 0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:22.000 told you even did your job well by enabling this 0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:26.520 toxic behavior, that in retrospect there is a recognition that 0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:29.160 people got hurt by this. I'll tell you this right now. 0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:31.439 One thing we know about moral injury is we still 0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:34.399 haven't come up with good psychological treatments for it. And 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:37.200 one of the most important things that somebody in Britney's 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:40.799 situation could do is talk it out. I could sit 0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:43.080 here till I'm blue in the face saying clearly you 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:47.920 were trying to survive, and that is totally understandable. But 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:49.960 I also, in the same breath recognize that you may 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:52.000 have hurt people in a very real way who are 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:55.160 also struggling, and say, well, you know you didn't mean 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:57.640 to I can't you know what I'm saying. We're back 0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:01.080 to that issue of intention. So for Brittany, this is 0:38:01.440 --> 0:38:04.920 very much an issue of going into a space and 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:07.800 talking it out. Now, if we want to lift from 0:38:08.360 --> 0:38:10.880 systems like twelve step, and to me, probably one of 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.800 the most powerful aspects of twelve step and of working 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:19.320 a program is the aspect of making amens. Having watched 0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:22.640 patients do that over the years, having worked with many 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:24.800 clients who are going through the making a men's phase, 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:29.120 I find it particularly profound because making amends is done 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:33.080 without an agenda. This isn't about them accepting your apology. 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:36.280 This is about you rolling up and saying I'm aware 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:39.200 that some of these decisions hurt you. I was part 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:43.799 of that, and I'm genuinely sorry for the pain you experienced. 0:38:44.320 --> 0:38:49.560 And that's that, no explaining, no nothing, And for brittany 0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:53.359 part of your process may very well be over time, 0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:55.520 and again this would be something one made me to 0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:57.880 explore very carefully in therapy. And there may even be 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.480 because it's a workplace issue, there could be life liability 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:03.399 issues involved in this. So you have to proceed very 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:07.000 very carefully. But if there is a way that might 0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:11.600 help them feel more whole and in making amends, that 0:39:11.719 --> 0:39:14.840 might also be something that you explore. A lot of 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:17.400 people are able to connect the dots, they're able to 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:20.319 see that I see where this decision came from and 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:23.680 I see the person who was executing it, Brittany. Doesn't 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:25.120 mean that people are going to be fond of you, 0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:27.480 but they may also be able to connect the dots 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:31.319 to up here and keep finally in mind that you 0:39:31.400 --> 0:39:34.640 were hurt by this process too. It's so easy to 0:39:34.680 --> 0:39:38.040 get lost and the pain you may have caused that 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:43.000 you forget that this experience also significantly harmed you twenty 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:47.480 years in a toxic workplace situation. That's no joke and 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:50.720 it is really harmful. So you do have a process 0:39:50.760 --> 0:39:53.359 of healing to go through too, and it is very 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:55.920 likely that some of the people that you believe you 0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:58.480 hurt were also aware of the hurt that you were 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:02.359 experiencing as well. Brittany's question isn't an easy one and 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:05.840 it's not one that could really be resolved without therapy. 0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:09.279 This is definitely not a self fix kind of a thing. 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:13.720 And so through therapy determining whatever that path forward looks 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:16.360 like for you, and that many of us sometimes have 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.480 to carry these burdens for a long time and may 0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:22.200 determine that there are other ways we can pay them forward. 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:26.960 You may then engage in some form of mentorship, working 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:30.239 with people in a volunteer capacity, doing something that you 0:40:30.400 --> 0:40:34.560 feel at least pays back or even makes things right, 0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:38.120 depending on whatever industry you're working in, And while it 0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:41.120 may not turn back the clock, it may at least 0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:45.120 help you feel that not only are you not contributing 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:48.000 to a problem, but that you may be protecting people 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:51.319 from things like this happening in the future. My conversation 0:40:51.440 --> 0:41:02.680 will continue after this break. Samantha asks, is it necessary 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:05.719 to remove people from your life who don't get it 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:11.160 when trying to separate from a narcissist. Listen, if we 0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:14.200 did that, we are going to have some real small 0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:18.600 social networks really fast. I mean, Samantha, it's tempting. And 0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:20.759 I talk in my own work of something I call 0:41:20.800 --> 0:41:23.400 the toxic dump, when once you get out of a 0:41:23.440 --> 0:41:27.200 primary narcissistic relationship, you kind of look around and say, WHOA, 0:41:27.280 --> 0:41:30.640 I've felt a lot of unhealthy stuff happening. But as 0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:35.160 you are separating from a primary narcissistic relationship, that's going 0:41:35.239 --> 0:41:38.960 to be enough psychological energy. If there are people around 0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:43.600 you who are second guessing you, doubting you, blaming you, 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:47.839 shaming you, guilting you, or trying to give the narcissistic 0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:52.359 person a free pass at that time, significant boundaries are 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:55.280 needed because you're going through enough of a difficult experience. 0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:57.960 For example, if it was a divorce, that having to 0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:02.480 manage all of these dissenting opinions can be really, really overwhelming. 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:05.640 When you get through the initial crisis of separating from 0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:08.680 a narcissistic relationship, which can last a while if you 0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:11.520 account for things like post separation abuse, but it can 0:42:11.560 --> 0:42:14.560 really take a while before you feel like you've separated 0:42:14.560 --> 0:42:18.120 from that relationship. Then as you kind of lift your 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:20.880 head over that dust cloud, is the time when you 0:42:20.880 --> 0:42:23.560 look around and say, are some of these people in 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:26.239 my life healthier? Are they not? And then to ask 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:29.440 yourself when I needed a friend, was my friend more 0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:33.040 interested in moralizing about marriage than she was to be 0:42:33.120 --> 0:42:37.160 there for me? Or was my father complaining more about 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:40.160 losing his golf buddy than being a father to me? 0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:44.400 Those then become the difficult conversations you have with yourself 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:48.480 and set boundaries and make those choices accordingly. I got 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:50.600 to tell you, trying to do it all the same time, 0:42:50.880 --> 0:42:54.960 it's probably a little overwhelming, and you question, Samantha, you 0:42:55.000 --> 0:43:00.600 ask is it necessary? No, it's not necessary. What we 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:06.400 learn as we navigate this territory of narcissism is discernment 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:10.160 about how deep or not deep we let people into 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.640 our lives. You realize that that friend who is that 0:43:12.719 --> 0:43:16.879 moralizing not able to be there for you person As 0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:20.360 you have another conversation with her, you recognize that you 0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:25.240 leaving your toxic marriage was actually really unsettling for her 0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:29.000 as she started wondering about her own marriage, that she 0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:32.400 was talking from a place of fear. You may still 0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:35.640 feel as though some connective tissue was cut, but you 0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:37.839 may still feel as though there's a place for her 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.600 in your life. Discernment means that everyone doesn't get to 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:46.600 have a front row orchestra seat to that theater called 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:49.520 your life. That some people are going to be in 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:53.160 the cheap seats and some people get to be backstage, 0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:56.640 and you get to make choices about that by really 0:43:56.680 --> 0:44:00.240 paying attention and saying I value myself in a way 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:03.920 to make choices in my life about people who are 0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:05.799 good for me and who helped me grow and who 0:44:05.840 --> 0:44:09.919 are safe. Fact is is that discernment is everything when 0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:15.000 we're thinking about narcissistic relationships. Charlotte asks, why is it 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:19.239 that as I've begun healing. I have more contempt for 0:44:19.320 --> 0:44:24.680 the enabler than the person with the narcissistic personality. Who, Charlotte, 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:28.680 that's a question. I love that question too. This is 0:44:28.880 --> 0:44:33.560 so common. The funny thing about the day we finally 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:37.480 get the narcissistic personality piece, we recognize that it's not 0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:40.680 good for us, we recognize the harm in it, we 0:44:40.760 --> 0:44:43.520 recognize that it's not going to change. We may even 0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:47.080 understand how their backstory made their narcissistic personality and still 0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:50.319 give ourselves permission to set a boundary or get out. 0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:55.760 That almost feels more clear to us than this really 0:44:55.880 --> 0:44:59.560 messy space of the enablers, people who we may have 0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:02.600 let far more deep into our lives, we may even 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:07.040 have talked about the problems in this relationship, been very open, 0:45:07.320 --> 0:45:10.480 very vulnerable. So once you get the narcissistic person figured out, 0:45:10.600 --> 0:45:14.320 like okay, that's their personality, But with the enablers, especially 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:17.320 if they're not narcissistic, but people who really may be 0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:21.080 sort of again, whether it's for a transactional reason or 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:24.880 a pollyanna ish reason, or a trauma bonded or just 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:28.919 plain old denial reason, that they could let you down 0:45:28.960 --> 0:45:32.160 in that way, despite having opened up to you, despite 0:45:32.200 --> 0:45:35.359 you having had what felt like a friendly relationship, that 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.759 feels like a deeper betrayal because your feeling is they 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:42.560 do know better, I've seen them know better, but for 0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:46.160 whatever sort of thing that they're stuck on around this 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:50.360 narcissistic relationship, that they can't get unstuck and just be 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:52.920 there for me. Listen, you may not even be asking 0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:56.520 the enabler to agree with you that the narcissistic person 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:00.600 is narcissistic. You just need them to be there for you, 0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:04.800 to not gaslight you, to hold space for your point 0:46:04.920 --> 0:46:08.680 of view. That's all you need, because not everyone's going 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:10.520 to read like I don't know about the narcissism peace, 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:12.759 but I totally agree that this person has treated you 0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:15.239 horribly all these years, and I get why you need 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:19.799 to step away. That is sometimes, in fact, often more 0:46:19.840 --> 0:46:24.160 than enough. And for that reason, the contempt we may 0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:26.839 have for the enablers, you saw that they did get 0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:30.280 it at times, they'd even endured some of the narcissistic stuff, 0:46:31.200 --> 0:46:35.040 especially if the enabler feels it all self interested that 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:38.000 it's as though if I do this, then I may 0:46:38.000 --> 0:46:40.960 not get those tickets to the super bowl, or if 0:46:41.000 --> 0:46:43.680 I do this, then may not be able to get 0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:46.480 to go to the beach vacation this year, Like you 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:49.840 chose the beach vacation over me. Not a good feeling. 0:46:50.239 --> 0:46:52.840 And so I think that there's certain kinds of enabling 0:46:52.880 --> 0:46:57.040 experiences that feel so much more invalidating because it was 0:46:57.160 --> 0:47:00.120 basically they were playing both sides of the street, and 0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:02.120 that doesn't feel good at least a narcissist is just 0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:04.960 on that side of the street. But when someone is 0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:08.640 sort of being your friend but then not really there 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:13.320 for you, that can actually feel more betraying. Max writes, 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:16.360 my cousin's wedding is coming up, and I'm going to 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:19.520 be in touch with my enabling on a lot during 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:25.120 the planning process. How can I control myself without feeling triggered? Oh, 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:30.560 the family wedding. There's just so much happening at family weddings, 0:47:30.560 --> 0:47:32.200 and then there's a bunch of strangers you don't know 0:47:32.200 --> 0:47:34.880 who bring their own toxic mess to the party. But 0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:39.759 in this particular case, that with your cousin's wedding coming up, 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:43.120 that is going to put you in proximity with family 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:46.280 members you may traditionally not if you're involved in planning, 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:48.560 or you're a member of the wedding party, or you're 0:47:48.600 --> 0:47:50.800 actually the person in the bride or the groom, whatever 0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:55.719 it is, you are now having proximity to somebody who 0:47:55.760 --> 0:47:58.960 may be an enabler of another toxic person in this 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:03.239 family system, which is very unsettling for you. And most 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:06.680 of the time you don't need to do that. One 0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:11.640 of the most useful tools you can have when you're 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:16.280 dealing with narcissistic people or enabling people is so simple. 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:21.680 It's preparation. You know what your aunt's about, so what 0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:24.560 that means is And I wish we could almost view 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:28.439 boundaries as these little gates around us that we could 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:30.799 pull up. You know they go shutters that go on 0:48:30.840 --> 0:48:33.160 windows when you're out of town or businesses closed at 0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:35.799 the end of the day. Imagine those around you, and 0:48:35.800 --> 0:48:37.399 I know how they go click click click click click 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:41.040 click audible sound like okay, going to see the auntie 0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.680 enable click click click, click, click click click maybe up 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:48.239 to here, Okay, toxic person. The whole thing goes around you. 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:51.320 But that click click click as silly as it seems, 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:55.919 it's a visual and an audible sensation that you can 0:48:55.960 --> 0:48:59.840 have of like going in with the aunt. Click click click, 0:49:00.320 --> 0:49:04.160 imagining that around you, something protecting you, that sense of 0:49:04.200 --> 0:49:08.600 self awareness, giving yourself, for example, permission to step away 0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:12.719 when the enabling AUNT is enabling or signing off on 0:49:12.800 --> 0:49:17.960 the toxic behavior of a key narcissistic family member. Knowing 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:21.240 is so much because you really can gird yourself again. 0:49:21.320 --> 0:49:23.680 Click to click those shutters up and down as you need. 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:26.520 It may very well be that another time you're talking 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:29.080 to the cousin and you may love the cousin. Shutter 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:32.719 comes down, Aunt comes in the room, shutter goes back up. 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:34.480 You might want to put that shutter on a remote 0:49:34.520 --> 0:49:39.200 control as you plan this wedding. But the feeling is 0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:42.920 self possessed about this, the enabling aunt being an enabler 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:46.600 is not a surprise. It is unsettling. And when we 0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:49.799 are triggered or activated, I prefer thinking of it like 0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:53.040 the pluck of a string that keeps reverberating for a while. 0:49:53.360 --> 0:49:57.080 But when that happens, it's our nervous system saying I 0:49:57.080 --> 0:49:59.800 don't like this, and what we need then is sometimes 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:03.440 time to come down. After those encounters, if you are 0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:06.040 in a situation where you can get out of the situation, 0:50:06.400 --> 0:50:11.160 in this particular setting, one rule could be, as soon 0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:15.839 as Auntie starts enabling, I'm stepping out. I can work 0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:19.160 with this. We will talk about flower arrangements and who's 0:50:19.200 --> 0:50:21.719 gonna get aunt Melba up from Florida or whatever. I 0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:25.000 do all that, But the minute this person starts signing 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:28.759 off on toxic person's behavior, I am going to start 0:50:28.800 --> 0:50:33.920 excusing myself from the conversation. Not abruptly, not dramatically. They 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:35.839 may think you need to go to the bathroom a lot, 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:39.680 but just get up and step away, give yourself a 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:42.359 second to talk yourself down. Say I can step away, 0:50:42.400 --> 0:50:44.520 I can give myself permission to do this. I can 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:47.919 pull those shutters up. But this is a very intentional, 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:51.520 aware process. The more of that you have, the more 0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:55.040 you don't feel surprised and shocked, and again, the more 0:50:55.040 --> 0:50:57.880 you might even feel more in command of what this 0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:02.640 entire experience is like. Good luck to your cousin. Enabling 0:51:03.280 --> 0:51:10.080 takes the harm caused by the narcissistic relationship and magnifies 0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:13.399 it one hundredfold. The very people you thought you could 0:51:13.440 --> 0:51:16.799 turn to for support all of a sudden feel as 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:21.040 though they are allied with the narcissistic person, and that's 0:51:21.080 --> 0:51:24.879 a moment that not only feels really gaslighting, it can 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:31.200 be unsettling, uncomfortable, and magnify existing issues you're having, including shame, 0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:35.440 self blame, and guilt. We put so much focus on 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:39.600 the narcissistic people that we forget how much of this 0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:42.520 story is playing out with lots of other people in 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:46.360 our lives, and to recognize that somebody that we actually 0:51:46.360 --> 0:51:51.839 may care about isn't able to fully appreciate the experience 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:55.560 that we're having can be heartbreaking. One of the most 0:51:55.640 --> 0:52:00.000 difficult things about enabling is that in a healthy situation, 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:03.399 you're not asking people to choose sides. It's not as 0:52:03.440 --> 0:52:06.560 though you're saying to the enabling person, do not have 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:09.600 anything to do with that narcissistic person anymore. It doesn't 0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:12.480 quite work that way. We may want that to happen, 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:15.919 but it doesn't always work that way. That sometimes all 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.799 we need from the enabler, all we wanted, I should say, 0:52:18.840 --> 0:52:21.680 from the enabler, is that they could have simply held 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:27.719 space and seen our hurt, our loss, our pain, and 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:32.960 our experience, because for most human beings, being seen and 0:52:33.080 --> 0:52:36.440 having someone bear witness to our pain is an incredibly 0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:40.480 healing experience. For someone to not do that, and the 0:52:40.520 --> 0:52:42.719 sense that they may be doing it to maintain some 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:47.720 status quo or in a way that helps or preserves them, 0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:52.120 can really really create a schism and break our hearts 0:52:52.120 --> 0:52:54.880 in a way that's very different than what happens in 0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:58.640 the narcissistic relationship. I'm so glad we didn't ask Doctor 0:52:58.719 --> 0:53:03.600 Rominy episode on enabling, because it's a thing. I have 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:08.839 to say that once people get narcissism. Don't get me wrong, devastation, devastation, devastation. 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:12.759 But it's almost like there's a playbook for that. Okay, yeah, insecurity, 0:53:12.840 --> 0:53:16.080 got it, grandiosity, invalidation, got it, got it, got it 0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:18.360 all right, So it's like, got it right, there's a roadmap. 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:20.359 I'm not saying it's an easy roadmap. I'm not saying 0:53:20.360 --> 0:53:24.560 it's easy territory with the enablers. It's like the wild West. 0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:27.480 It's just open territory. Like my sister I love, and 0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:30.120 then this happens my best friend from college, and then 0:53:30.120 --> 0:53:34.920 there's an enabled thing. It is incredibly complicated space. Enablers 0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:37.680 don't just bring up simple feelings. I'm not saying the 0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:41.200 narcissistic people do either. But the feelings are so complicated, 0:53:41.320 --> 0:53:45.720 and then if you think it's bad going through narcissistic abuse, 0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:52.879 the shure all those enablers coming in there is absolutely overwhelming. 0:53:52.960 --> 0:53:56.480 So this was a really really important Q and A, 0:53:56.600 --> 0:53:59.279 because this is a show for you, the survivors, and 0:53:59.360 --> 0:54:01.920 so keep in mind that when the enabling's happening, it 0:54:01.920 --> 0:54:06.520 can really really make the narcissistic abuse feel so much worse. 0:54:06.560 --> 0:54:07.560 So I'm so glad we did this.