WEBVTT - Michael Fremer 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.480 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Tess Podcast. 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.560 My guest today is the King of Vinyl himself, Michael Kremer, 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.720 also Audio Equipment Viewer Extraordinaire. Michael. Good to have you. 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.000 Great to be here with you, Bob, really great. Okay, 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.920 first question is we're reading all about these issues of 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.840 vinyl production. You know, plants being burned up, shutting down. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.760 Is there an issue with vinyl production? Well, the big 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:41.559 issue was supposedly when the Apollo lacquer fire happened. So 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:46.120 Apollo is it was the major supplier. We thought of lacquers. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.680 Lacquers are needed to make records. So you take a 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:50.960 lacquer and you put it on a lathe and the 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.400 lacquer gets cut and the grooves are in the lacquer. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.160 Then that gets plated and it turns into a stamper 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:58.400 and you make records. So there was a company called 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.040 Transco that was right near me in Elizabeth, New Jersey, 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:02.840 like in the early nineties, and I went to visit 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.040 them and saw they make lacquers. Then Apollo in California 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.680 bought trans Go and put the two plants in one 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.399 plant in California, and I said at the time, what 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.560 if there is an earthquake, What if something happens, then 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.720 you lose everything. So they didn't have an earthquake. But 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.600 what happened was there was a huge fire there and 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.480 it burnt the place almost to the ground. And everybody 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.640 wondered where the lacquer is gonna come from? And that's 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.280 gonna stop the whole industry from making records. But in 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.240 the meantime, there was a Japanese company that was making 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.399 laquers and they were making more than we thought, and 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:35.640 so they stepped up to the plate and there was 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.800 no problem with laquers. The big problem today is not 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.800 enough pressing plants, not enough capacity, because the record business, 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.679 the vinyl business has just gone gangbusters this year. It's 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.040 been it's amazing what's happened this year? Okay, so to 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.080 what degree does the means of production lagged the demand? Uh, 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:58.000 there's not enough presses and so UH for example, Verve 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.240 and UH and Acoustics Sounds got together and did a 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.800 whole reissue series of great records on the Impulse and 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.079 and Verve record label. So they ordered X number of 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.000 records of let's say, John Coltrane's a love supreme and ballots. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.000 That was one month's output. They put two records out 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.560 a month, so they pressed up X number of copies. 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:19.280 I'm not supposed to say how many they were, but 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.000 there were a lot, a lot more than I thought. Uh. 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.880 Those sold out almost immediately, and so Verve asked for 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.800 another pressing and they couldn't press them because they had 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.839 other commitments. The guy that owns the pressing plant, which 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.200 is q RP in Salina, Kansas, um he said he 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:43.560 could press doors and beatles seven and keep the praise going. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.000 But he can't do that, of course, because there are 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.600 orders for other things. So the problem now is there 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.240 are a lot of big pressing plants, but they're they're 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.960 completely booked. So how many pressing plants are there in 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.360 the world. Well, there's a number of really big ones. 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.680 Uh So this record industry in the Netherland. In the 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.200 early two thousands, well probably the early nineties, Sony decided 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.440 this is a this is an elephant for pressing plant. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.359 Were records are going away, we have this huge plant. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.760 The infrastructure of a record pressing planet includes giant boilers, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:17.760 the heat water piping presses that are big, heavy things. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:19.400 And they said we've got to get rid of this 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.520 place and the cost of disassembling everything and probably more 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.320 than what the building costs. So a guy I know 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.440 came along and said to Sony, I'll tell you what, 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:30.880 let's work out a fair market value for the real 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.000 estate and the building. I'll take care of getting all 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.080 the rest of this junk out of here. And Sony 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:37.880 figured they had a sucker on the line and they 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.720 made the deal with him, and that guy, Taan Vermillion, 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.480 now owns a free pressing plant in Harlem, the Netherlands, 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.560 and it's one of the biggest in the world. So 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.120 they press a huge number of records there every year. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.120 So that's a big one. There's a u RP in Nashville, 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.440 they press a lot of records. There's MPO in France. 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.760 There's um so, there's a There's a dozen plants, and 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.680 then a lot of small ones that have opened up. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.560 You know. Jack White, a third man, has a pressing 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.800 plant in Detroit, so he's got six or seven presses. 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.440 There's Furnace in Virginia. He just opened a big, big plant. Uh. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.960 This q RP in Salina, Kansas. There's r t I 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.640 in California, so there I'm finding out about new pressing 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:22.760 plants all the time. I get emails from people saying 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.080 they're pressing records. So I did a survey of of 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.760 pressing plants and asked them how many records they pressed 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.359 last year. I didn't get the participation that I desired 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.920 this year for some reason. But from the pressing plants 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.880 that did respond, fifty million LPs were pressed from those plants, 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.560 and so my my estimate is over a hundred and 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:49.080 twenty million records were pressed easily last year. Okay, you 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.120 talk about the number of presses. You say they have 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.640 six presses. How many records can six presses produce? Well, again, 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.960 it depends on the on the type of press It 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.359 is because some of the presses work faster on the others. 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.679 Some of them work slower than others. A pressing cycle 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.919 should be a couple of minutes, so you know, do 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.040 the math. A couple of minutes to press a record. 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.919 You keep the pressed running eight hours a day. Um, 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.080 some presses, some presses are running running three three shifts 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.279 eight hours a day. You know, so three shifts, eight 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.080 hour shifts, that's twenty four hours. You can you can 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.359 do the math. I'm ath lexics. Don't expect me to 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.360 do the math and add that up for you. I 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.760 can't do it. Just to be clear, I've been to 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.159 a pressing plant Rainbow Records. It used to be in 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.839 Santa Monica. When you talk about a minute, it didn't 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.240 seem like it was a minute just to make one record. 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.840 Are you talking about the whole process? You're literally saying 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.440 a minute to make both sides. Well, it's both sides 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.520 get pressed at the same time. So so what happens 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.279 is a biscuit goes in a molten biscuit, the press 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.280 comes down, it stays close for at least a minute, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.560 at least a minute, then it opens up. Then the 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.279 record gets moved off the press. Then it goes to 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.040 a machine that slices the flash away from a on 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.400 the record, and then that record goes into a bin 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.719 or slides down a thing into into a pile of records. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.200 It's over a minute. Let's go back to the heyday 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.040 of vinyl. There was a big issue whether it was 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:18.279 virgin vinyl re grind uh. Some labels like Atlantic were 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.400 known for having especially poor pressings. Then we had our 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:26.120 c A with the dina Flex record to what degree 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.479 is the issue of purity still in the mix, and 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.760 to what degree does thickness affect the ultimate recording. Well, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.720 you know, records got bad in the seventies when there 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.120 was an oil crisis, if you remember, and so they 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.960 were melting down whatever was plastic that could melt, you know, 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.120 big pens, whatever they could melt to make into a record. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.280 So a lot of bad records. But it's not fair 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.200 to go after Atlantic because Atlantic pressed records at Presswell 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.279 at Monarch. Atlantic was one of the only labels that 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.480 would tell you where the record you're buying is pressed 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.640 that so you could buy a led Zeppelin record press 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.600 that Monarch or a press Well. And there were connoisseurs 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.799 today of press Well records or Monarch records of different 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:10.040 pressing plans. But at any rate, most today our virgin vinyl. 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.960 But there are some presses that believe that some of 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.000 the regrind should be used it makes a better record. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.640 But what they do is if their record is badly pressed, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.520 they don't throw it away. They take the record and 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:22.080 they put it in a machine that pops out the 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.640 label that was created, and they grind it up and 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.880 use it again. And that's still considered you know, to me, 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.200 that's still virgin vinyl. Essentially, it's not it's not really 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:38.400 used vinyl. Okay, Now, is anybody making new pressing machines. Yes, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:40.880 there are a number of new pressing machines. So there's 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.040 a company in Canada making new presses. There's a company 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.280 in Germany making new presses too. Lex Alpha was one 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.120 of the big modern presses of the end of the 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.320 vinyl era. You know, in the eighties they started making 0:07:55.360 --> 0:08:01.160 these really efficient quick presses, lightweight, and then they went 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.760 out of business. And then uh Of, one of the 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.680 developers started getting requests that started, like in the nineties, 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:11.320 getting requests for parts and will you maybe make a 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.040 new press, and so he organized the company. He got 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.640 the blueprints because they didn't exist, they were on paper, 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.320 the blueprints. He got the blueprints and started making presses again. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.360 And those are not called Phoenix Alpha. So there are 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.280 many many new presses you can buy, and there are 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.840 small pressing plans opening up all over the place. Of 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.880 this one in Austin, Texas, there's one that just opened 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.400 in Asheville, North Carolina. A single press. It's like it's 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.640 a boutique press. So local bands can go in there 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.520 and get their albums pressed on vinyl. And these places 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.040 are all really busy right now. Everything everybody's booked up solid. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.560 How about lathes to actually cut the lacquers, Well, that's 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.400 that's an issue. Uh. There are no new lathes being made, 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.440 but right now there are a sufficient number around uh, 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.200 so that's not a problem. The problem is actually the 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.440 cutting style. That's a difficult thing. There's not too many 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.719 people in ad to make those. So the entire infrastructure 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.959 of record pressing, from the beginning to the end, there 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.560 are hitches in the line. But so far right now 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:15.400 everything's everything's fine, everything's coming along. Just find plenty of laquers, 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:20.560 plenty of PVC, uh, plenty of presses. They're very, very busy. 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.120 And the ones that have room to from more presses, 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.520 they're hesitant to to buy new presses and start pressing 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.360 because they think that maybe this whole thing is is 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:29.960 going to go away at some point. But I don't 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.120 see it happening now, Bob. I think this is this 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.960 is here to stay and growing. Okay, little backfield. How 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.120 much does the press cost? It's pretty expensive. I don't 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:39.920 know the exact amount because I haven't I haven't looked 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:41.960 to buy one, but it's it's hundreds of thousands of 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.240 dollars and maybe close to a million. It could be okay. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.280 At the end of the tenure of Vinyl, there were 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.920 big debates whether the Neuman lathe although the standard was 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.600 actually you know, not good, and there were other things. 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.560 What's your view on the different competition in lathes. Well, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.640 at this point, you know, the Annyman SX seventy four 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:07.040 is pretty much the the industry standard. Unfortunately, that was 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:12.400 developed in nineteen four and that is what most places use, 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.160 the Annoyment SX seventy four, and there was the final 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.920 one they made, was the SX eight. And there are 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.319 other you know, there are other cutting systems. There's a 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.560 the older Scully machines, That's what Rudy van Gelder had, 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.480 That's what Bernie Grunman uses. He's got a Skully lathe, 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.079 which is actually the device you know, plays the lack 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.439 of spins the disc and cut her head moves on it, 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.120 but he uses a Hayko cut her head. The Annoyment 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.319 is pretty much the standard, and nobody complains about Annoyman's. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:41.920 And then of course there's d M M. The direct 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.360 metal master, which is which was developed by by Tell 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.120 Deck in the at the end of the vinyl era. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.800 And so when another thing that happens, when lacquers started, 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.040 people were worried that lacers were gonna go away. Uh, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.240 there was a pickup in business of direct metal master 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.480 that doesn't require any lack er and plants like g 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.559 Z Media, which I left out of my discussion of 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.160 the biggest plants. That's one of the biggest in the 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.880 Czech Republic that I visited them. That's a huge place. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.319 They make their own PVC, they rebuild their own presses. Uh, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:17.240 they have many many um direct metal master cutting lathes 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.520 to cut from. They even make their own copper discs. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.080 They're like completely self sufficient. That's an amazing place. Okay, 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.960 I certainly remember the direct metal mastering. But for those 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.840 who are unaware, can you explain that in the difference 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.200 between like a traditional annoyment lathe. Sure, so traditional lathe 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.800 cuts on a lacquer. So, a lacquer is an aluminum 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:41.000 disc that's coded with what's essentially paint. It's it's a lacquer, 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.040 and it dries and then it gets put on a 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.640 lathe and the cutting head cuts in cuts the grooves 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.440 into the lacquer, and then the lacquer gets played. It's 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.960 silver plated, and then it makes eventually makes a stamper 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.920 and your presser record with with the d MM. The 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.360 the plate is copper. It's a it's a piece of copper, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.079 and it gets cut directly into the copper, so there 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.880 isn't an intermediate step of making something metal. It starts 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.839 out as metal and so it makes it. It also 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.360 makes them more direct and a more precise cut because 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.440 the metal can be cut more precisely. Some people don't 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.760 like that sound. I've got a Wilco album that they 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.120 sent me. They cut it a d M M and 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.440 they cut lacquer and they said, what do you which 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.960 do you like better? And they sound different. And over 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.040 time the d m M has gotten better because the 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.400 people doing the cutting have have understood its qualities and 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:34.319 have made it sound less harsh and better sounding. Okay, 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.199 I heard there was a scarcity and d M M machines. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.120 Is that true? At one point? And this is you know, 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.559 I can say this now, but one of the things 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.000 I said entire vinyl business were the scientologists. Do you 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.200 know that story? No, I don't I remember. Once I 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.480 got my knockam F eighty two fixed. For those who 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.680 really remember, that was the ultimate you could set some 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.560 tones whatever, And all these people wanted to buy it 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.880 from me, and they all turned out to scientology. She 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.240 had asked a number of questions before they ultimately revealed that. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.559 But I do not know about the scientologists in this era. 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.600 All right, this is such a great story, and it's 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.480 absolutely true. And when I tell it to you, you're 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.320 gonna say, I don't believe you, but it's true. So 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:18.959 the scientologists decided that the best way to store information, 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:24.640 including L. Ron Hubbard speeches, was not digitally but analog. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.599 So they brought up a whole bunch of D M 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:32.520 M lathes, and they also had regular lathes, and they 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.400 brought up a lot and they they saved a lot 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.360 of lades that otherwise would have been scrapped, and they 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.880 cut L. Ron Hubbard's speeches to either D M M 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.280 or lacquer. And then they bought up they bought a 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.360 plating plant at R T I, which is one of 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:49.800 the premier pressing plants in America in Camrio, California. They 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.000 spent the money and built a plating facility, which is 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.760 where you played the laquer to make stampers. They invented 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.760 a system whereby once the lacquer was plated with silver, 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.560 they covered it with an aluminum foil covering hermetically sealed 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.480 with a tab on the end. And to play back 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.240 the lacquer, the plated lacquer you peel back like a 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.840 pop top can and you put it on a turntable. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:18.920 The turntables had solar panels to power in case there 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.560 was no electricity where the world's exploded, where we're done, 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.440 and solar panels and cartridges with no elastomer in it. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.520 Cartridges to play back record. It has a springy thing 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.240 and there's a piece of rubber in there that makes 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.800 it springky, and that's how you play back records. The 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.640 cartridges they developed have no elastomer so that it wouldn't 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.640 deteriorate over time. So this is all stored in the 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.640 Mojabi desert in a in a vault someplace in the ground. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.800 And in the future, Bob, some future civilization will dig 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.760 up and discover this place. They will unfold the doors, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.360 they will find these turntables, they will find this whole 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.760 stash of plated lacquers and and d M M plated 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.920 records covered with this aluminum. They will peel it back. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.560 It also has hieroglyphic sione to show you peel back. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.880 Put on this turntable, put the solar rate towards the sun, 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.080 lower the styles into the group, and l Ron Hubbard 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.920 will play. And so in the future it will be 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:20.600 discovered that the most important person in our civilization was 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:25.000 l Ron Hubbard. That may end up being true, Okay, 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:30.080 and then to what degree does this affect DMM availability? Um, 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:34.360 there are many many places that have record industry in UH. 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:36.960 In Harlem in the Netherlands has a has a number 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.800 of d MM lathes. Uh. When I I visited there, 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.560 and when I visited Optimal in Germany. That's another present 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.280 plant that I forgot to mention. That's a big one. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.280 They used to just only make c D and DVD 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.800 duplication and books and they just got into vinyl in 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.840 the nineties, and boy, that was the right move for them, 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.000 because now they're absolutely backed up with whatever comes their way. Uh. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.200 They've got a number, They've got a whole house full 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.560 of lathes, and many of them are d MM and 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.520 they make their own copper plates also, So there really 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.480 isn't a problem with with getting the records cut. The 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:15.320 big problem is getting them pressed. Okay, let's just assume 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:23.960 that production equals demand. How big can this vinyl market become? Um, Well, 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.760 as long as there are oppresses that could continue to 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.880 be built, and there are you know, three or four 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.320 companies that will make them, and as long as people 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:35.080 are willing to invest the money to buy the presses, 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.720 and as long as there's the continued demand which is succeeded. Listen, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.320 when this whole thing started, when vinyl was going away, 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:43.960 and I'd go to Tower Records, and I would see 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.840 all the beautiful record racks disappearing, and they were just 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.760 all the CDs on those long boxes and everything. I 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.240 just couldn't believe it. So I wonder, my my tear 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.000 about saving vinyl. But I never thought it would come 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:57.600 back the way it's come back. I just wanted the 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.960 infrastructure to be to remain. You know, I this pressing 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.200 plant in upstate New York. It made money. It never 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.000 lost money. Even in the worst era vinyl era, when 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.760 business trailed off, they made money. And at some point 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.000 someone at m c A decided that they would make 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.639 the bottom line look better by closing the plant and 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.240 getting selling the presses, and they have a big bump 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.400 in the bottom line for one year. That was worth 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.159 it to them. And I said, don't do that, because 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.200 what's gonna happen is Vinyl is gonna make a big 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.520 comeback and you're gonna be on have to wait online 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.439 like everybody else to get a record press And they 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.439 looked at me like I was crazy, And guess what, 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:32.679 now you and me has to wait online with everybody 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.960 else to get their records pressed. So okay, But I 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.200 repeat my question, how big is the potential market? It's 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.760 as big as the demand can grow to become another's. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.879 There's no limitation in terms of production. It really comes 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.520 down to how many companies are willing to invest the 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.600 money in presses and setting up the infrastructure. Some of 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.160 the like you know r T I in in Camearrio. 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.119 It's a fairly small place. They have like twelve over 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.439 thirteen presses and they have room to grow. But the 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.680 guy that owns it, he's like, he's he's happy, he's 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.240 making money. Everything's good. U. The guy at Harlem, he's 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.600 running through three shifts a day, eight hour shifts, seven 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.240 days a week, and they're just you know, it's also 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.000 a matter of getting getting young people to want to 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.200 be pressman. It's not a big it's not a big 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.360 paying job. Okay, but let's talk. Let's talk the others. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.280 Let's talk the other side of what is driving demand? 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.199 That's the best question. So what's driving demand? Or a 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.720 few things. First of all, you have the older audiophile 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.960 who think records sound the best, and they're buying a 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.960 lot of the costly reissues. And then you have young people, 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.960 and a lot of people don't understand why young people 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:48.960 are getting into this. They just you know, they can 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.280 stream for almost nothing. Everything you want to hear is 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.440 on your phone or you can stream, you can listen 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.720 on serious exam, you can you can stream, will modify 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.119 and all these different services. So why are records continuing 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.000 to sell? Part of it is the form factor that 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.400 young people, especially those who grew up with with just digital. 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.640 They have nothing to hold, there's nothing in their hands, 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.639 they have a collection of nothing. They like the fact 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.000 that they can buy a record. They feel a closeness 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.280 to the artists that they support, They feel some connection 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.480 to them, they feel the artist that said, here's twelve songs, 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.879 here's a playlist. I want you to hear six songs 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.960 on the side. And I hear from those people, these kids, 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.080 and they love it. They just love the whole thing. 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.639 I always it's like books. Books are not gonna go away. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.480 Books may become more niche than it is now, but 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.920 there's always going to be a demand. And young people. 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.120 I hear these story as well. Young people buy these 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.080 records to hang on the wall. They don't even open them. 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.639 I don't buy that. I mean some do that for sure, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.240 but the way the market is growing, and when I 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.080 hear from young people, they get together with each other. 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:54.159 There's something about analog the brain are. I sent you 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.080 a paper, I think a scientific paper about you know, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.359 you get on a telephone call in the digital domain, 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.720 all our phones and now digital, you jump over each 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:03.879 other because everything's pushed in these little packets that come 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.800 at you, and then the silence and then it starts again. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.159 There's something about listening to records. And I always said this. 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.720 I always said, if kids can get it, can hear 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:16.000 hear this and experience what a record sounds like properly 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.200 played back, they'll want it. So my neighbor. I have 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.159 a neighbor whose kid is like nine years old. He 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.520 was a Bob Dylan fan. He only heard Bob Dylan 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.040 his MP three's And I brought him down here and 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:27.320 I sat him down. I said, what do you want 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:28.480 to hear? He said, I want to hear blood on 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.040 the tracks. I played the vinyl and I was standing 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.119 behind him and I could just see his whole body heaving, 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:35.800 and I went on the other side. He was crying. 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.600 He said, I've heard that record. I don't know how 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.199 many times. I've never heard it before. The first guitar 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.320 strum cut through me like a knife, and then the 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.560 whole experience, the emotion of it. I've never heard anything 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.520 like that. I think that experience is being repeated all 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.840 over the world as young people here finally hear something 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.800 that's analog and the way music should be heard. Well, yeah, 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:04.560 but I laugh a lot of these people are no, no, no, no. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.200 I laugh at a lot of things. But what I 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.159