1 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Well, hey, everybody, it is me Rosie O'Donnell, star of 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Wide Awake. What. Yeah, that was Night Shyamalan's first movie 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: and I played a nun and it's a very good film. Okay. 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: My friend Marcy Marie spent almost eleven years in prison 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: on the charge of embezzlement, and while she was in there, 6 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: her children, two who were in diapers and two who 7 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: were in middle school, had to survive without her for 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: over a decade. She's now an advocate. She talks about 9 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: what's wrong with the prison system. She still is on probation. 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: She's very wise, she's a close friend, she's lovely, and 11 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: I wanted her to truth is. She was just here 12 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: at my house stay over with her fiance and I 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: was talking to her in the backyard. I said, let's 14 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: get and sit right down, let's just talk on this. 15 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: And we just started talking and I think you're going 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: to enjoy it. Marcy Marie Simmons follow her Marcy Marie 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: on TikTok. She's a phenomenal woman and an advocate for 18 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: women in prison. So take a listen and there'll be 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: no questions at the end. It's a little different. It's 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: sort of like the Reality Winner episode. So we'll be 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: talking about a little bit more serious topics, no trigger warnings, 22 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: just letting you know it's kind of a little bit heavy, 23 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: but it's really worth listening to. Thank you very much, Marcy, Marie. 24 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: How are you, Marcy. 25 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: I'm awesome, Rosie. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks 26 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: for having me. 27 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Well, I'm so happy that we finally got to meet 28 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: in real life. 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: Me too, because we've been kind of interacting on zoom 30 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: and messages and TikTok and I'm excited too. 31 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: So what happened was I found Marcy on TikTok and 32 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: I thought, who is this gorgeous blonde woman who is 33 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: showing us how to make food while incarcerated. As soon 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: as I saw your first TikTok, I did a deep dive. 35 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: I went and I listened to all of your tiktoks, 36 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: and I was like, what a story this is. You 37 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: have been out of prison for two years. 38 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: I have been home for two years, and you actually 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: the first comment that I noticed that you sent on 40 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: a TikTok video. My mom said, hey, I think Rosie 41 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: o'donald put a comment on one of your videos, and 42 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: it was actually a video of how we would wet 43 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: our pants and iron them out and dry them with 44 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: our fan and I was like, Oh, my gosh, that 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: is her, and I was so excited. And then I 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: saw that you followed me, and then I was really 47 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: excited because I grew up you were a household item 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: in our home, right, So. 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: How sweet is that. I was just fascinated by your story. 50 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: And let's do a quick recap for everybody of what 51 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: happened to you. You were very young, you were a 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: young mother. You had how many children at the time 53 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: of your arrest? I had five children at the time 54 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: of my wrist. I had three in middle school and 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: two in diapers. And you had never done anything illegal 56 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: before this. No, I mean I had traffic violations, Rosie, 57 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: But I was not about that life, absolutely not. And 58 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: you got a job working for a company and they 59 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: kind of taught you how to embezzle for them, but 60 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: you weren't very aware of what you were doing at first. 61 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: Is that correct? 62 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: Well, they were kind of cooking their books in a way, 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: and they were moving their finances around to make it 64 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: look like their business was a lot more profitable. And 65 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: from that first thing, that happened is it made me 66 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: lose respect for them, And then it also showed me 67 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: how they were making so much money kind of being shisty, 68 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: and instead of being the person that said, I don't 69 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: want to be a part of this, I'm going to 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: go find another job, I thought, hmm, I did something 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: really stupid and I ended up kind of using that 72 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: same technique that they were doing to take money for myself. 73 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: And how is it that you got caught? Like were 74 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: the police in on it or did one of them 75 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: turn you in? Or how did you get the blame 76 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: for what innately older men taught you and told you 77 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: was your job to do well. 78 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: And it's kind of like in a situation where I 79 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: took what they were doing a step further right. So 80 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: I was literally taking money for myself. Instead of kind 81 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: of moving it around between their accounts, I was moving 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: it into my account. So I did that for a 83 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: number of years. And the way that I was doing it, 84 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: it was a system where the money had to keep moving. 85 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: If it was stagnant, it would get caught up. And Rosie, 86 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 2: I live in Texas. There was an ice storm. Nobody 87 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: drives in ice in Texas. We don't know how to 88 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: do it. The state shuts down, my internet was out, 89 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: I couldn't get to work, and the money was stagnant there, 90 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: and it threw a red flag up and the bank 91 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: called my employer. 92 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: That's how it started. And your employer was aware of 93 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: what was going on. They were not just notified in 94 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: shop that little Marcy Marie had done in bezzling. They 95 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: knew that that's what they had hired you in a 96 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: way to do well. 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: They definitely knew that there was shystiness going on. What 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 2: they didn't know is that I was benefiting directly from it. 99 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: They thought it was just moving their money around, and 100 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: so they were surprised to know that I was in 101 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: a and flat out. Let's just get blunt with it, 102 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 2: as I was stealing from him, right, Please show up 103 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: at your house. The detective showed up at the office. Actually, 104 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: I walk into work one day and my big boss 105 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 2: had flown in and he was sitting at my desk 106 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: in my chair when I get to work, and I knew, 107 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: you know, I knew what time it was, and he 108 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: had some papers in front of him and he said, 109 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: what in the hell is all of this? You know? 110 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 2: And Rosie at that point. There was a weight that 111 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: lifted from me at that time, right, So yes, fear, yes, dread, yes, 112 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: uncertain about what the consequences were going to be, but 113 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: also like, thank god all of this is over. It's 114 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: coming to an end, because there was just so much 115 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: and I just told him, I just laid it out, well, 116 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: this is what's going on. And just a couple of 117 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: minutes after, Thattive walks in and says I needed to 118 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: come talk to me. I wasn't under arrest at that point, 119 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: all without an attorney, which I do not recommend. 120 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: I was going to say, didn't you watch Law and Order? 121 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: Don't you know you're supposed to ask for an attorney. 122 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: And it messed me up, honestly, So I knew that 123 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: I probably needed an attorney, but I was still naive 124 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: enough to think that, well, I'm guilty. I'm not going 125 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: to ever try to say I'm not guilty, because I 126 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: just needed it to be done. And I still have 127 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: faith in our legal system that if you're going with them, 128 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: I can believe them. When the detective says, well just 129 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: tell me and I'm going to try to help you, 130 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: I believed it. I wasn't aware of all the injustices 131 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: at that time, and. 132 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: How old were you? I was thirty. Okay, so you're 133 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: thirty and you have five little kids, a few in diapers, right, yes, 134 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: some in middle school? And did he take you right 135 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: to jail? Right then? 136 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: So he takes me to this little room and it 137 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: was like like you see on Law and Order, just 138 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: that little detective interrogation. 139 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: Room with a double sided mirror. 140 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, the whole thing. And I remember sitting 141 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: there thinking, holy cow, how how did I ever let 142 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: my life get to this point that I'm on this 143 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: side of an interrogation like this? And again he had 144 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: some papers and Rosie. They didn't know exactly how I 145 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: was doing it. And I was so naive and silly 146 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: enough to yes, I was doing this, and not only yes, 147 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: with I doing this, but no, this is what happened. 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: This is how it was going down. And I should 149 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: have said, I do want to talk to y'all, but 150 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: I need to call an attorney. I wish I had 151 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: said that. 152 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: Right, but you didn't know. 153 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: I didn't know. I just still really had faith that 154 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: they just wanted it to be over. Also, I just 155 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: wanted it to be over. 156 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: So what was the effect on. No one in your 157 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: life knew you were doing this, No one, not your family. 158 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: You have a very supportive family, very close family. Your 159 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: parents are still with us, and your grandmother still alive. 160 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: Did you have to go face your family or you 161 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: didn't get to go home? That was it. You stayed 162 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: in prison from that moment on. 163 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: After I kind of laid it out for the detectives, 164 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: they said, well, just wait right here, and they left 165 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: the room and went and talked to the DA and 166 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: came back with an arrest warrant. So I was arrested 167 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: at that time, but I had one hundred thousand dollars 168 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: bond and my family, my grandmother and my husband at 169 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: that time, split it. It cost ten thousand dollars for 170 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: me to get out of prison at that time, and 171 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 2: they split it probably what my grandmother had saved up, 172 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: quite honestly, and I got to go home for a 173 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: short time. They changed the charge on me, and two 174 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: weeks later I ended up back in prison. But those 175 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 2: two weeks that I was home, I had a lot 176 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: of explaining to do, and I am grateful that I 177 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: had that time, because you can't talk about an open 178 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: case on your phone in County jail while you're waiting 179 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: for sentencing. You that's not something that you can do. 180 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: And so I was able to just lay it out 181 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: for my family. My parents did not raise me to 182 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: think that that was okay, that it was not acceptable. 183 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: They would not have been approving of that. My husband 184 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: at the time, absolutely, he was the kind of guy 185 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: that if he went in the grocery store and he 186 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: was thirsty while he was shopping, he was going to 187 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 2: go pay for his drink and then finish shopping. He 188 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 2: wouldn't even open a coke before he paid for it. 189 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: So definitely they wouldn't have been approving. But the thing is, Rosie, 190 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: they knew something was wrong with me because I had 191 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: been committing my crime for about three and a half years. 192 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: During that time, you can imagine nobody knew what was 193 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: going on. But there was extra money, and I was 194 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: having to lie and lie and lie. And as you're 195 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: doing that with the people that you love and care about, 196 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 2: you're putting up a wall and you're creating a distance. 197 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: And my family felt that my mama knew, Yeah, my 198 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: mama knew something was up. Absolutely, they weren't. They were 199 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: surprised at the amount and the extremness of it. But 200 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: they knew something was going on. So you go to 201 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: trial and what are you assuming? What are they telling 202 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: you might be your sentence? Like, I know you were 203 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: stunned at the sentence you got, but what were you 204 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: expecting at that time? So in the county jail, while 205 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: I'm waiting to go to court, the girls are telling me, oh, 206 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: you've never been in trouble. You're gonna get probation. You're 207 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: probably gonna have to pay the money back. And I 208 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: really thought I would be ten years probation, working my 209 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: tail off, making monthly payments to pay the money back. Right, 210 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: the first time I go to court, I do the 211 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: whole thing, try to I'm going to court in my 212 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: jail clothes, so I'm trying to make myself look as 213 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: least amount of looking like a criminal as I can 214 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,359 Speaker 2: in jail clothes, right, And I'm like making homemade mascara 215 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: with toothpaste and ink, trying to open my eyes up 216 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: a little bit, and trying to smooth down my hair 217 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: the best I can. And I go in shackles and 218 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: handcuffs and I'm escorted by an officer. And this is 219 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: how you walk into court when you don't have money 220 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 2: to make your bond or your bail. This is how 221 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: sixty percent of Americans walk into court looking like they're guilty. 222 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: For sure. For me, I was pleading guilty. That wasn't 223 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: the issue. But you can see how that could be 224 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: a disparity for marginalized communities. Right. But I go in 225 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: and my lawyer comes to see me. I'm in a 226 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: holding cell at the courthouse, and he comes to see 227 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: me and says they've got an offer. The DA made 228 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 2: an offer. Said okay, well what is it. I'm thinking 229 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 2: he's fixing to tell me probation and he says forty years. 230 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: Oh my god. My heart fell to my stomach. I 231 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: was nauseous and I realized right then, there's I was 232 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: not getting probation. That wasn't he my attorney, who we 233 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 2: did pay for he wanted me to sign for forty years. Yes, 234 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: I am for forty years. My god. So you're a 235 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: thirty year old that's your whole life, Yes, that's all 236 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 2: my kids, completely, grown, grandchildren, everything. That's what I kept thinking, like, 237 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: that's it's over. It's you know. 238 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: So you didn't take that deal? 239 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, Now you went to trial so I didn't 240 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 2: go to trial because I pled guilty. I pled guilty, 241 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: and I didn't take that deal. And the way that 242 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: works is it's negotiating over months, right, So you say no, 243 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: and then you go back to the county jail and 244 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: wait another month or three weeks, and then you come 245 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: back and they have another offer. And so then it 246 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: was like twenty seven years, and then it was like 247 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: twenty five years, and then it was you know, down 248 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: and down, and then it was twenty, and then it 249 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: was twenty, and then it was twenty. And I kept 250 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: telling him, if you get it to ten, in my mind, 251 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: I could make that work. In my mind, twenty I 252 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: just couldn't imagine. And then the third time I went 253 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: with that twenty offer, he said, look, they want to 254 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: arrest your husband. And he had nothing to do with it, 255 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: absolutely not. He didn't know anything and he had nothing 256 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: to do with it, and he was home taking care 257 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: of my two babies. And I just thought that can't happen, 258 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: and I signed the paper for twenty. When I got 259 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: back to the county jail, I had to call home 260 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: and let my parents know, and my dad, Rosie, he 261 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: was so upset. Yeah, we just didn't think it was 262 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: going to be twenty. We knew it was going to 263 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: be something. Yeah, it was hard. That was a hard 264 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: phone call. 265 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Hey, don't go away, there's more to come. 266 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: So you go in for twenty and you're thirty years 267 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: old and you've lived a life where you've gotten in 268 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: no trouble. You have no experience with prison or with 269 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: any kind of even the people that were in prison, 270 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: like must have been a shock to you to be 271 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: kind of surrounded by criminals, but you come to find 272 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: out their life story, and there's so many stories similar 273 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: to your own very much. 274 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: So I you know, my parents raised me to love 275 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: everybody and be open minded and treat everyone with equality 276 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: and love. But they also raised me kind of in 277 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: this bubble, in this middle class, white suburban neighborhood. And 278 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: so I go into prison and it's diverse. It's people 279 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: from all walks of life, with stories that I could 280 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: never even imagine, stories that I saw on television that 281 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: I didn't even ever picture real people, real women having 282 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: to deal with. And I quickly learned listening to these ladies, 283 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: just how kind of messed up our justice system is. Right, 284 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: We're we're putting mentally ill people in prison as the answer. 285 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 2: People with substance abuse disorders, and these ladies, Rosie, I 286 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 2: met some of the absolutely most beautifully spirited and beautifully 287 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: hearted women that I have ever met in my life. 288 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: And I met them in the penitentiary, right, And you 289 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: were in for ten years until you got was it 290 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: paroled or what was it commuted or how what is 291 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: the term that you got your sentence from twenty to ten. 292 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 2: I made parole at ten years, and so now I'm home. 293 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 2: I'm still on parole, so kind of technically, I'm still 294 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: serving my sentence. I'm just serving it out here in 295 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: our community. And so do you have to do that 296 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: for ten war years? Yes, until twenty thirty. So you 297 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: have a probation officer. 298 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: I do, and you have to report to him on 299 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: a scheduled basis. 300 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 2: I do. I'm completely accountable to him and the State 301 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: of Texas. To be able to come here, I had 302 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: to check in with him. He had to give me 303 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: a travel permit. I had to submit to a urine 304 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: analysis to make sure I wasn't on any illegal substances. 305 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: When I go back, I have to report to him 306 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: within twenty four hours yeah, they keep a close eye 307 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: on us. 308 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Now, since you've been out, you have dedicated a lot 309 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: of your free time to really helping change the system 310 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: and the women's penitentiaries in Texas. This weekend, you're here 311 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles at a TikTok gathering of prison TikTok. 312 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with prison TikTok, it's a hashtag 313 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: that you can click on and it's people who are 314 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: now out and who most of them are that I'm 315 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: watching are using their experiences to try to help change 316 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: the system like you're doing. And you recently had a 317 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: big victory with getting a law passed. Right, we did, 318 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: We really did. 319 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: So. I'm with an organization called Linus Justice Impacted Women's Alliance, 320 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 2: and we are made up of formally incarcerated women and 321 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: currently incarcerated women, and what we do is we advocate 322 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 2: for change within the prison system, mainly for women. And 323 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: the law that we got pasted is about a medical 324 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 2: transport bill and it's now we're waiting for Governor Abbott 325 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: to sign it, so it's not officially a law quite yet, 326 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: but it passed the House and past the Senate and 327 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 2: it will just offer women privacy using the restroom as 328 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: something as simple as that, just give them just a 329 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 2: little more dignity. 330 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: Well, so this was you told me the story yesterday. 331 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: I was fascinating that when people are transferred to another facility, 332 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: it's often a six to nine hour bus ride and 333 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: there's no bathroom. Like when you go on a bus 334 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: to Vegas or something, or I've only been on buses 335 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: to Atlantic City. There's a bathroom in there that closes 336 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: you're of privacy, but here there's not. 337 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: Oh, it's nothing like that. If you guys can imagine, 338 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 2: everybody's been on a school bus at some time in 339 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: their life. Right, If you take one of those bench 340 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: seats out of the school bus and you just build 341 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 2: a square wooden box and put a hole in that, 342 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 2: that's what the bathroom is. There's no curtain, there's no privacy. 343 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: There's people sitting just within inches from you on your left, 344 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 2: and with just inches from you on your right. There's 345 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 2: people directly across from you. And you can imagine, as 346 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 2: a woman in particular, how humiliating that can be, like 347 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: changing feminine products, this type of thing. So, Rosie, my 348 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: first time on a transport bus, I was being transported 349 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: from my intake unit to my ID unit, and it 350 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: was in Dayton, Texas, which is near Houston. All the 351 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 2: way up to Gatesville. It was a seven or eight 352 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: hour trip, and I was handcuffed to a lady who 353 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: had done about twenty three years, and I said, about 354 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: three hours into the trip, I said, I think I 355 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 2: have to go to the ladies room. And she said, girl, 356 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 2: you should have put on a bunch of Maxi pads 357 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: like I did. Wow. And a few hours later I 358 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: watched a young lady have to change her tampon. In 359 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: that environment, there are men, there are guards, mail guards 360 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: on the bus. The bus driver perhaps is the guy. 361 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: You can't even have your hands free to wipe or 362 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: to change. Imagine your hand is handcuffed and you're trying 363 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: to change and replace a tampon in front of all 364 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: of these people. 365 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: You know. It's just the lack of basic human dignity, 366 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: you know. And that was the reality of what you 367 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: were entering. 368 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. That was kind of just the foreshadowing of 369 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 2: the kind of things I was going to see while 370 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: I was incarcerated. 371 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: So you get in there, and you're there the first week, 372 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: and you are in your bed, crying, what are you 373 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 1: doing well. 374 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of the nights with my head 375 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,239 Speaker 2: kind of under my cover, just still in shock that 376 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: I was there, that I had put myself in that situation. 377 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: So there's so much shame and guilt behind that that 378 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: it was eating me from the inside, missing my kids. 379 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: I was still dreaming, like my dreams were halfway in 380 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: prison and halfway in the free world, and my kids 381 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: were kind of with me, or I was in my 382 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: prison clothes and the free world with them having to 383 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: run back in time for count time in prison, and 384 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: I would wake up in these night sweats. It was 385 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 2: a hard adjustment. It was really hard figuring out how 386 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: to live with myself after I had done what I 387 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: had done. 388 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: Were you scared right away? Did you feel as though 389 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: there was violence everywhere you were in danger? Or were 390 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: you more like depressed and calm? Like was it was 391 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: a terror right away? 392 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: Walking into the prison. You hear so many stories like, 393 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: don't take anything from anybody, don't people are going to 394 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: try to get over on you. People are you know? 395 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: But man, right from the start, Rosie, the ladies were helpful. 396 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: They were giving me the lowdown because the state really 397 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: doesn't tell you anything. The officers don't tell you anything. 398 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: It's the ladies that live there that are going to 399 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 2: tell you. We eat at this time, this is how 400 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: you do this, this is don't do that, or you'll 401 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: get in trouble. Put your shoes here, or you'll be 402 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 2: in trouble. These kind of things, and they were helpful. 403 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: I never feared anybody that I was incarcerated with, and 404 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: I spent my time. I was on a maximum security unit. 405 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: Texas kind of jumbles everybody together, so I was there 406 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: with people that were never going to come home again. 407 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: And I never felt fear from the ladies I was 408 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 2: incarcerated with. The only fear I felt had to do 409 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 2: with staff. 410 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you've told me stories and maybe we could 411 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: tell some right here. I mean, I worry that you're 412 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: on parole and they might go I don't like you 413 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: telling the truths and do something to send you back. 414 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: Do you worry about that as well? Like you're allowed 415 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: to have free speech on parole. But you're talking a 416 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: lot about the reality of prison, which I assume the 417 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: prison industry doesn't really enjoy, do you. 418 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: Know, Rosie, I talk about it right in front of 419 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 2: those legislators too, And I go right on boldly. And 420 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 2: this is why I'm confident, because I just only tell 421 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: the truth about it, right, and so everything I say, 422 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: they cannot prove that I was not telling the truth 423 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: because it's factual. 424 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: Right, guards who were just cruel, and so many men 425 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: and so much of abuse of misogynists behavior that you 426 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: had to put up with the guards exposing themselves to 427 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: you and riding you. You know, you're a very attractive woman. 428 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: They would say, you know, horribly sexual things to you, 429 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: And how did you know how to survive all that? 430 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: You know right away? Who has all of the power 431 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: in there and who has none? And as an incarcerated person, 432 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: your word doesn't mean anything. You don't have any control 433 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: over any situation. The only thing you have control over 434 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: is how you react. So you learn that very early on. 435 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: So you can't It's not a situation where an incident 436 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: happens from staff and you out here. You might look 437 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: at somebody crazy if they said some sexual innuendo towards you. 438 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: You can't even do that. You kind of have to 439 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: play it off. 440 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: You just know how to avoid that situation, and you 441 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: know how to pay attention to your surroundings and not 442 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: put yourself in a situation where you could be off 443 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: camera alone with an officer or something like that. And 444 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: I'll also say I met lots of staff members that 445 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: would never dream of abusing their power, you know, that 446 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: were there to have a job and feed their families 447 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 2: and get benefits, help benefits, right, But I also just 448 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: met an equal or more amount that horrified me quite frankly. 449 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: So, you were pretty much a good prisoner, but then 450 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: you went through a phase where you kind of lost yourself. 451 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: You lost your mind, and you were put in segregation 452 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: in the hole. Whatld we people out here in the 453 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: free world say from we know from watching these shows 454 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: that it's you were put in isolation. For how long 455 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: were you put there? 456 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: I was in and out of the whole for about 457 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: two years, in and out of medium custody, and in 458 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: and out of the whole. I did completely lose myself, Rosie. 459 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 2: They weren't I wasn't making parole. I felt like I 460 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 2: was doing everything that I was supposed to be doing 461 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: to make parole. My daughters that I had left in 462 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: diapers were in elementary school and kindergarten in first grade, 463 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 2: and I just remember thinking to myself that if I 464 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: had died instead of committing this crime and taking myself, 465 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: removing myself from my kid's life, then they, by now 466 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 2: they would have healed from that. By now they would 467 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: have moved on. And as it is now, they're living 468 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: with themselves every day. My mom's in prison. And I 469 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: just couldn't. I did not know how to forgive myself 470 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: and move forward at that point, and I wanted, I 471 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: didn't care. I started acting crazy. 472 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: I did it. 473 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 2: I was talking back to the I was, I mean, just. 474 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,239 Speaker 1: Rebellious. You were enraged at yourself, you were enraged at 475 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: the situation, and you kind of gave up a little bit, right, Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. 476 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: How horrible was the whole I mean, we see it 477 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: all the time, and it's been you know, declared unconstitutional 478 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: to put people in isolation like that, especially there are people, 479 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: as you know, who've been in segregation for years of 480 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: their life, years and years. That's like cruel and unusual punishment. 481 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: How horrible was it was? It at the worst part 482 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: of your prison experience was being isolated like that in 483 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: the segregated unit. 484 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: I think the worst part was probably when I went 485 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: to had to go to the crisis management center, which 486 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: is like if you have a suicide attempt and we 487 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: can get to that, that was the whole was probably 488 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: better than that, but it's exactly like what you can imagine. 489 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: It's a small, dirty little cell. You might find like 490 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: feces on the wall, I mean, they're filthy, graffiti all 491 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: over the walls. You see a lot of religious pictures 492 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: where people had drawn in or carved religious pictures or 493 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: like prayers or God Helped Me kind of things on 494 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: the wall. And then there's a sense of desperation in 495 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: that entire building. 496 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: It was. 497 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: It's sad. It's hard to be in there with nothing 498 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 2: but yourself and your thoughts, especially when you're in a 499 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: situation that you've already realized you can't really figure out 500 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: how to live with yourself. So the suicide rates for 501 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: inmates in the hole are really high. You hear people 502 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: crying out. 503 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 1: It's sad. Yeah, it's really sad. And you did you 504 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: get to a point where you were suicidal? I did, yeah, 505 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: And was their mental health help and any capacity. 506 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: So if you attempt a suicide, or if the staff 507 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: believes that you're suicidal, because sometimes you might be suicidal 508 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: and you might tell the staff and they don't believe 509 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: you or don't take you seriously. That happens, or sometimes 510 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: people say they're suicidal because they just want to leave 511 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: the situation that they're in, or you know, and so 512 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 2: that happens too. But what they do is in Texas 513 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: for women, they take you to the crisis management center, 514 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: which is on another unit. First you go to the hole, 515 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: and I was already in the hole when I went. 516 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: But then they take your panties, your bra They leave 517 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: you in one gown and they take your mattress, they 518 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 2: take your sheets. You don't have anything. You're just in 519 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: the cell, nothing but your gown. And they have an 520 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 2: officer posted outside your door watching you to make sure 521 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 2: or that you don't hurt yourself. And then you're waiting 522 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: for transportation to go to the crisis management center. The 523 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: crisis management center. When you go in there, they take 524 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: your gown so you're completely nude. There's no bed, it's 525 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: just a concrete room. There is a toilet, stainless still toilet. 526 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: The officers come by every fifteen minutes mail look at 527 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 2: you naked, mail or female to look at you. I mean, 528 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: they're checking to make sure you're alive and doing what 529 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: they're supposed to be, but you are completely naked and 530 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: you don't get a blanket. I didn't get a blanket 531 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: till my second day there, so I didn't have any coverage. 532 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: It was horrible. I was there for twenty days. Oh 533 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: my god, Marcy, how'd you survive that? First of all, 534 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: how is that supposed to help someone who is suicidal? 535 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: I know it taking everything out prevents you from trying 536 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: to make a noose or do something that would hurt you. 537 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: But that's even worse than standard prison. 538 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: In the hall. At least you have a bed in there, right, 539 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: So you come from this suicidal, desperate place to a 540 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: worst place. 541 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So one of two things happens. Right 542 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: if you either are to a point where you just 543 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: don't even care about the conditions, because that's how deep 544 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 2: you've gotten down into your depression and you just you're 545 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 2: just there and that's kind of how I was. Or 546 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 2: you are still suicidal and still having these invasive thoughts 547 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: and you just tell them I'm not suicidal. I feel okay, 548 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: because when you say those words, they send you back 549 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: to the unit, and. 550 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: So you in some ways are able to free yourself 551 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: from there by saying that. 552 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. But then if you're still having 553 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: those thoughts, you're still not getting help, and you're still 554 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: at risk for losing your life or taking your own life. 555 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: Were there a lot of deaths while you were in there? 556 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 2: A lot of suicides. I know personally eleven people that 557 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: took their lives while I was incarcerated. Those are the 558 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: ones that I knew personally, nine inmates and two officers. 559 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: Wow, that is intense. 560 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: The conditions in that environment are very harsh. They're harsh 561 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: for the people that are housed there, and they're harsh 562 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: for the people employed there. 563 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: Stay tuned, we'll be back now. Talk about harsh. I mean, 564 00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, we've known each other a while now, and 565 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: I I've heard so many of these stories. But the 566 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: one that haunts me the most, I believe, is the 567 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: temperature inside the prisons in Texas that if you google it, 568 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: it says that Texas prisons have air conditioning, but the 569 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: reality is they do not. So explain that. 570 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: So it's tricky because some of the areas in the 571 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 2: prison where I was at were air conditioned. The areas 572 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: where the officer sit the picket, the administrative offices, the 573 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 2: visitation room, the chapel, the education building. But the buildings 574 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 2: that actually house the inmates are absolutely not air conditioned, 575 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: and they're miserably hot, dangerously hot. 576 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: There was a thermometer that you were able to sort 577 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: of get, and they put black masking tape over the temperature, 578 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: so inmates can't see just how hot it is. But 579 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: how hot was it when you got that masking tape off? 580 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: It was one hundred and thirty six degrees In the 581 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: dorm where I lived the last summer I was incarcerated. 582 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: Were people having seizures all. 583 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: The time, rosy heat induced seizures. I didn't even know 584 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 2: that was a thing until I got to prison. In 585 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: the summers, there are so many ladies. My girlfriend Britney 586 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 2: suffered from heat induced seizures during the hot summer. She's 587 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: been home three and a half years now and hasn't 588 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 2: had one since. They are definitely heat induced. It was 589 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 2: a very dangerous situation. The problem is if you have 590 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 2: any other health ailment, diabetes, any kind of heart diseases, 591 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 2: the heat exasperates that so intensely, and so then when 592 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: an lady incarcerated person goes to the hospital or passes 593 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: away in the summer, it's because of her heart disease. Well, 594 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 2: it's because she, yes, she had heart disease, and she 595 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: was housed in extreme temperatures. That's the real problem. 596 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of Brittany, you guys met in prison and 597 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: you fell in love, and she got out before you 598 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: and set up an apartment and waited for you to 599 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: get out, and then you got out and you've been 600 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: together ever since. So how long have you been together 601 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: with Brittany. 602 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 2: We've been together for five years, since twenty seventeen. And Rosie, 603 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 2: we're getting married soon. 604 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: I heard it and I better be invited. 605 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, we can't wait. We're yeah, we're making it official. 606 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: We're just out here building our life together and healing 607 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 2: from our traumas together, and we're just very much happy 608 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 2: and in love. And my family just adores her, right, 609 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 2: and your kids love Your grandkids call her their best friend. 610 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: Right. 611 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: Yes, I have two grandsons and they're the cutest things ever. 612 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 2: And they they'll say, Mama, can we come spend the night? 613 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: And I'll say, sure, is my best friend there? 614 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: Now? Was there were there? You were not gay before 615 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: you went in, but you always sort of knew in 616 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,959 Speaker 1: the back of your mind that that was a possibility. 617 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: Correct, That's absolutely right. I had never been in any 618 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 2: kind of long term relationship with the woman before I 619 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 2: went to prison. But I was always attracted to women 620 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 2: or men. I you know, I don't think a lot 621 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 2: about how someone's built on the outside necessarily. I really 622 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 2: feel like I feel their energy and their spirit, and 623 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 2: that's kind of what I'm attracted to. 624 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: Right. 625 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 2: And I had really not been in very many long 626 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 2: term relationships. I've been married twice, and once to my 627 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 2: high school sweetheart, and divorced just for a short time 628 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 2: and then got remarried. So it's not like I have 629 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 2: all this experience. Frankly, I had more relationship in prison 630 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 2: that I had my entire free world life. 631 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: Right. And you were so young too, Right. You were 632 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: young when you had your first child. You were a 633 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: teen mom, and you had a wonderful husband while you 634 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: were in prison, who would bring your girls to you 635 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: every time he could, and he would sit, you told me, 636 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: with his cowboy hat, push down over his eyes and 637 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: take a nap and let you just have them all 638 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: to yourself, climbing on top of you, and you know 639 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: that's not the rule is you can't touch, right, But 640 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: what do you do with a baby that's five and six? Right? 641 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 2: And there was actually in Texas you for children that 642 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: are set under seventeen, they're allowed to hug their mom, 643 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: they're allowed to be with her, sit in her lap. 644 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 2: My kids set in my lap. Even my middle school 645 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: son his first visit with me when I got incarcerated, 646 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 2: he set in my lap the whole visit. Just needed 647 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: to feel that and thank goodness that we are allowed 648 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 2: to do that. There was a short time we had 649 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 2: one warden one time for like six months she said, no, 650 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: kids can't sit in your lap? 651 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 1: Right, how marrible? 652 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 2: Marrible? 653 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: It was terrible. 654 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 2: The girls were used to being able to braid my 655 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 2: hair and you know, this was our ritual. We all 656 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 2: braided each other's hair every visit and they were used 657 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 2: to sitting in my lap and one on each leg. 658 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 2: And they were when that happened. I think they were 659 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: about seven and eight. And it was hard. Yeah, it 660 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 2: was really hard. 661 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: There are like moments that you tell me of just 662 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: pure cruelty. Like there was a pond that was a 663 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: man made pond on the prison grounds and you got 664 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: a new warden, and she said, fill it up with 665 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: dirt for no reason. There was no incident around having 666 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: a pond, a little bit of nature, a little bit 667 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: of life, and something beautiful to look at, and it 668 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 1: was just taken away without incident. 669 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. She also had us to cut all 670 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 2: of the rose bushes down, dig them up, get rid 671 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 2: of them. They were there for no reason. She didn't 672 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 2: want she didn't want us to have any relief, I 673 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 2: think from the harsh environment we were in. You know, 674 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 2: just sometimes you can imagine if you're walking down the 675 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: road and you see a rose, you know, you might 676 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: stop and admire or look up, you know, and that's nice, 677 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 2: and it's the same thing in there. You might be 678 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 2: going back to your dorm and we would be like, 679 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 2: oh the roses are blooming. Oh it's got new blooms. 680 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 2: And that was just. 681 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: Take it away, just take it away. You told me 682 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: about the prison jobs that you had, especially the one 683 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: pulling weeds. Can you just describe what that was like? 684 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: Because when you told it to me, and you visually 685 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: leaned down in the manner that you were allowed to 686 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: do it, you couldn't bend your knees to pick the weeds, like, 687 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: tell people what that was. 688 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 2: That's called the field squad and the kind of the 689 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 2: nickname is called the hoe squad. And the work that 690 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 2: we did was very similar to plantation work. We had 691 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 2: an officer that was on horseback, he was armed. That 692 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 2: was our boss. And the pulling weeds part. We would 693 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 2: all line up at the end of the garden and 694 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 2: each one of us in a row, and you were 695 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 2: responsible for pulling all the weeds. And you would have 696 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 2: to if you just stand up and bend at the waist. 697 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 2: You can't bend your knees and you're just bent at 698 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 2: the waist there pulling weeds. You're not allowed to stop. 699 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 2: You're not allowed to stand up and rest your back 700 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 2: or stretch your back. You're not allowed to squat down 701 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 2: and bend at all. And you're just doing that the 702 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 2: whole the whole shift, the whole work shift. Sounds like slavery, right, 703 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 2: looks like slavery. It absolutely does it absolutely it is 704 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: it is and we're doing it with no pay. I 705 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 2: mean it is, yeah, horrifying. 706 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: Now, one thing that you learned to do in prison, 707 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: which I really fell in love with you when I 708 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: was watching you on tiktoks with this prison cooking thing 709 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 1: that you would do, Like I can't even explain you 710 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: talk to people about food that you would make in 711 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: prison with just stuff from the commissary. What was the 712 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: best thing that you made that everyone went crazy about 713 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: in the prison because you were a renowned prison cook, 714 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: weren't you. 715 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 2: I was a really good cook in prison, and I 716 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 2: cooked and fed a lot of people while I was there. 717 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 2: I think probably my best recipe was maybe a pizza. 718 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: Pocket, which you made out of what. 719 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: So I would take crackers and crush them down and 720 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 2: kind of make a masa for a crust and lay 721 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: them out, and then maybe turkey bites, which is like 722 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 2: mebe a slim gem made out of turkey, Slice those up, 723 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 2: make a sauce out of ketchup. 724 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why you do what you have to do. 725 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 2: Yes, catch up in garlic powder, cut up some jalapenos, 726 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 2: squeeze cheese, cream cheese, and you fold your pocket together. 727 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 2: And then we would we call it frying, but really 728 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 2: it's air frying. It's with a hair dryer, right, And 729 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 2: we'd put it in a bag and our bag would 730 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 2: be our oven, and we'd put that blow dryer in. 731 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,399 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable what you would like mc iver in there, right, 732 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: you could take anything from the commissary and make something 733 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: delicious for everyone to look forward to. I mean, what 734 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:41,919 Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. 735 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 2: You know, food in the free world brings people together, 736 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 2: and food in prison that brings people together as well. 737 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 2: And we did have moments. As horrifying as the conditions were, 738 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 2: we still supported each other and had moments of celebration. 739 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 2: We played games on holidays, we got together when it 740 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 2: was a weekend and the TV's were on and there 741 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 2: was a movie coming on the whole dorm would watch. 742 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 2: And we did these things for survival and for companionship 743 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,760 Speaker 2: and friendship, and there were a lot of beautiful moments. 744 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 2: I have good memories from that time because there were 745 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 2: good people there. 746 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: Right, And you're still friendly with many many women that 747 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,839 Speaker 1: you served with, and when they get out, I know 748 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: you have them on your TikTok and on your podcast. 749 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,320 Speaker 1: Tell everybody about your podcast now. 750 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 2: Yes, So we started a podcast. It's called On the 751 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 2: Reckyard Women's Prison Podcast, and we try to talk about 752 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 2: things that we might talk about on the Prison Reckyard. 753 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 2: We talk a lot about some of it more heavy 754 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,240 Speaker 2: and in depth about the disparities in our legal system, 755 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 2: and some of them more lighthearted, like prison late Nights, 756 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 2: how that went down in coffee shop and how we 757 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 2: celebrated and it's fun. It's great. It feels good to 758 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 2: talk about those things and we do it. We're live 759 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 2: on YouTube, so that's exciting also because it's live. We 760 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 2: take questions live and it's a lot of people we're 761 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 2: incarcerated will pop in and give questions and excellent. 762 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: Well I'm about to go jump on and do it, 763 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: so yeah, listen. I love you, Marcia. I think you're phenomenal. 764 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: I love Britney too. I think that you're an amazing woman. 765 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: And what you've done now since you've been out trying 766 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,959 Speaker 1: to help the women who are still incarcerated and make 767 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: life a little bit easier for them and more humane. 768 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really it's really tragic what we do 769 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: to inmates and in the guise of rehabilitation when there 770 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: really is none in prison and it's only getting worse, 771 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: and we incarcerate more people than any country in the 772 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: world by far, and it has to change in our country. 773 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: I'm very proud of all the work that you're doing. 774 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: In order to make that a reality. So thank you 775 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: for being my friend, and thank you for coming and 776 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 1: spending the night here. And we'll see you at the 777 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:12,280 Speaker 1: wedding for sure. 778 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate you. 779 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: Rosie, right back at you, well, I hope that you 780 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: enjoyed that. I certainly enjoyed talking to her. Follow her 781 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: as I said on TikTok, Morcy Marie, you will enjoy it. Okay, 782 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: next week we have Samantha Bee. I love Samantha Bee. 783 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: She is so smart, she is so astute, she is 784 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: so beautiful, she's a great mom, she's a wonderful friend, 785 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 1: and I love her. And she's got a new podcast 786 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: and we're going to tell you all about it. So 787 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,800 Speaker 1: next week, Samantha Bee, don't miss it. It's Rosie O'Donnell. 788 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: This is Onward