1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Hi, it's West Kasova. We're taking a break this week, 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: so here's one of our favorite episodes you might have 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: missed and an update since this show aired. In the spring, 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: India Supreme Court held hearings on same sex marriage. A 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: verdict is expected in the fall. From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio, 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: it's the Big Take. I'm West Kosova. Today India's march 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: toward marriage equality. This month, India Supreme Court will hear 8 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: arguments in a closely watched case on whether to allow 9 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: same sex couples to marry. The court's already affirmed are 10 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: right to privacy for all, which abolished a colonial era 11 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: law that made gay sex a crime, and it expanded 12 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: social welfare benefits for what it called atypical families. To 13 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: those arguing in favor, marriage equality is the logical and 14 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: inevitable next step. 15 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 2: I want to get married. I want to get married 16 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: for the reason that many people in this country and 17 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: everywhere they believe that one day they'll meet somebody who 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: they really love and you know, they'll be able to 19 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: get married. I want to be able to do that. 20 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: That's Aditi Anan. She and her partner are among several 21 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: same sex couples who petition the court for the right 22 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: to marry. If the judges rule in their favor, the 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: effects will be far reaching, and not only within India itself. 24 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: India's size and its political and economic influence in Asia 25 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: means the ruling will be felt well beyond its borders. 26 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: My colleagues Munisa Nakbie and Kai Schultz are following this 27 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: case and they are here with me now from New Delhi. Munisa, 28 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: can you give us an overview of the case that's 29 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: now before the court. 30 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: So we's the case that is before the court is 31 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: several couples who are asking the court. Shortly after India legalized, 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 3: or rather decriminalized homosexuality, they're asking to have access to 33 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: marriage equality. So these couples are saying, we are no 34 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 3: longer now criminals in the eyes of the law, and 35 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 3: it's time for the law and the country to go 36 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: one step further and allow us those rights and privileges 37 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 3: that come with marriage. These include things like adoption, being 38 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: able to be each other's next of kin, have each 39 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 3: other on their insurance, and all of those things that 40 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: come with marriage, the good and the bad. 41 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: And how did this all come to be? 42 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: It's sort of built up from the decades on fight 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 3: to first decriminalize homosexuality in India, which came to pass 44 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: only in twenty eighteen. You know, for more than one 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years before that, it was a crime 46 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: to openly declare that you were a in this country, 47 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: and even though prosecutions were read was a huge tool 48 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: of harassment for the gay community. It created fear and 49 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 3: a sort of impunity for police to come and harass 50 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: you should they choose to so. Once that sort of 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 3: had come about and that was a huge moment for 52 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 3: the NGBTQ community in India. Once that had been achieved, 53 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: it seemed the next obvious thing. What a surprise everybody 54 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 3: is the speed at which this has come. In many 55 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: countries where marriage equality has come, or the fight for 56 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 3: marriage equality has come, it's been a much slower process. 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: In India. It's been just a couple of years between 58 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: decriminalization and fighting to get the rise to marriage equality. 59 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: Kai Menisa described how quickly this all happened. How was 60 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: it able to change so fast? 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 4: The speed has been remarkable for I think everybody that 62 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 4: we've spoken to, and people have put forward a few 63 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 4: theories for why they think the evolution has been so accelerated. 64 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 4: India is a fairly English country. It has a large diaspora, 65 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 4: it has a large English speaking population. It's very much 66 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 4: a country where people follow international media. So there was 67 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 4: an awareness, I think of rights movements in other parts 68 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 4: of the world, including the US, that's helped to kind 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 4: of create this consciousness around these issues. Secondly, India is 70 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 4: led by a fairly progressive Supreme Court. The bench as 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 4: it currently stands is pretty progressive on social issues. So 72 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 4: in recent years, they've allowed women to enter sex segregated temples. 73 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 4: They've extended legal recognition to transgender people who can identify 74 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 4: as so called third genders. That's how it's characterized in India, 75 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 4: and so that's provided some of the context I think 76 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: for the speed. 77 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: What happened between the criminalization and fighting for marriage equality 78 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 3: has been quite a seismic shift in how Indian culture 79 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: has viewed LGBTQ people. Twenty years ago, a firm that 80 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 3: had a lesbian characters, you know, inflamed such passions that 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: movie theaters were set on fire and you know, the 82 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: movie had to be pulled out off screens. Now we're 83 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: seeing advertisements for two women buying a home together, buying 84 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 3: wedding jewelry together, which is very iconic to Indian culture, 85 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: and cinema is making nuanced, you know, not the caricatured 86 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 3: sort of homosexual characters of the movies of the nineties, 87 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: which was almost sort of like the buffoonish character. Bollywood 88 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 3: is making films with very sort of sensitive portrayals of 89 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: gay characters. So all of that has also changed in 90 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: the interim between decriminalization and pushing for marriage equality. Some 91 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: of the people we spoke to have said this that 92 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,119 Speaker 3: seeing all of these things change, being able to see 93 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: for the first time representations of themselves on screen and 94 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: around them in popular culture, which was brand new, also 95 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: allowed them to sort of feel that the time had 96 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 3: come to push for more. So to give an idea of, 97 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 3: you know, what this journey has been like for LGBTQ 98 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 3: people in India. We spoke to this couple, Aditi and Susan, 99 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: and it's sort of their story really is the story 100 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 3: of what it has meant in India for so many 101 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 3: people to grapple with their own gayness, find themselves sort 102 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: of legally full citizens finally, and then find themselves in 103 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: this sort of amazing place where they can reach for 104 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 3: marriage equality, which seemed even a decade ago to them 105 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 3: completely out of reach. And in Aditi and Susan's story 106 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: we find reflections of all of that. So they talk 107 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 3: about how as young women, coming out even to themselves 108 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: was hard. 109 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: And here is Aditi Anan speaking about this to Bloomberg Quicktech. 110 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: Susan and I moved in within a few months of 111 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: I think a few weeks of meeting each other, and 112 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: you know, once we actually started dating. Susan quit her job, 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: she moved out of a house, moved into my apartment 114 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: in Bombay, and we got a dog. So I would 115 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: say we started seeing each other in October and by 116 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: March of next year we were already living together. Our 117 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: friend and family were extremely supportive, extremely supportive, though it 118 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: was fell in nerve racking and a difficult, difficult thing 119 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: to come out because of our own fears and all 120 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: the things that we had been dealing with all our lives. 121 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: But it was remarkable once we actually came out to 122 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: our families on both sides, Susan to her mom that 123 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: night and then me to my parents the next day, 124 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: it was remarkable how supportive they've been throughout Extraordinarily, my grandmother, 125 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: who is in her nineties, is not just a supporter. 126 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's completely organic, her relationship with Susan, her 127 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: relationship with our son. So it's been a really, really 128 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: wonderful and I know, sometimes a very rare experience to 129 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: have this kind of support, and we've been very lucky 130 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: to have it. 131 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 4: So much of the context behind these journeys comes from 132 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 4: a place of pain for people. India is a country 133 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: where you can still very easily be harassed for being gay. 134 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 4: You have a few legal protections in the workforce. In 135 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: many instances, sexual assault is common. Many of these challenges 136 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 4: that come from living openly in countries across the world 137 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 4: are common in India, and so the fear there persists, 138 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 4: and I think that that's something that many people feel 139 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 4: marriage equality will help to abate, is the idea that 140 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 4: they're different or separate or other from other Indians in society. 141 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: Let's hear from Susan Dia. She's a Deity's partner and 142 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: she also spoke to Bloomberg Quick. 143 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 5: Take at the time a couple of years ago when 144 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 5: we decided to have children, is when we thought that 145 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 5: marriage would be a logical next step for us, and 146 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 5: in doing that, in having and raising a child, now 147 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 5: we realize more so the lack of a lot of 148 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 5: things that we don't have today. Legal rights over each other, 149 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 5: the ability to you know, have a bank account, to 150 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 5: own assets together, to be a legal parent to a child. 151 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 5: These are all things that one either takes for granted 152 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 5: or doesn't think about till you're faced with it. 153 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: Kai, Is it possible to measure how the Indian people 154 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: feel about this? Is same sex marriage popular? Do people 155 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: want it? 156 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 4: It's hard to say precisely. We've spoken to lawyers who 157 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 4: have said that with decriminalization it was a fairly easy 158 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 4: pill for people to swallow. They could understand and get 159 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: on board pretty quickly with the idea that people didn't 160 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 4: want to be considered a criminal in front of the law. 161 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 4: And I think it was also framed as a very 162 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 4: private act. Marriage is a much more public institution. It 163 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 4: holds such an important space in the Indian consciousness, and 164 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 4: so there was some concern that the speed was so 165 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 4: quick that perhaps it was almost too quick. What we 166 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 4: found though, is that public polling varies pretty widely, so 167 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 4: in the months after decriminalization, this would have been. In 168 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen twenty nineteen polls found that anywhere from about 169 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,359 Speaker 4: a quarter to more than two thirds of Indians supported 170 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: same sex marriage, And so it doesn't give a full 171 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 4: picture of support on the ground. But what we do 172 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 4: know so far as there have been no public protests 173 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 4: that have taken on any sort of grandeur or size 174 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 4: or importance in the media or in bigger and urban centers, 175 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 4: and so so far there hasn't been that pushback that 176 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: some people are fearing there might. 177 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: Be, munisa because India has such a large population and 178 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: it's so influential in Asia and around the rest of 179 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: the world. If same sex marriage becomes law. You write 180 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: in the story that this will have far reaching effects 181 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: beyond India itself. How is that? 182 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: I mean, For one thing, one hopes that it sets 183 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: a legal precedent for other countries to follow, for the 184 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: more conservative cultures to follow it. It creates a blueprint. 185 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: But also because in the region, even wealthier sort of 186 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 3: seemingly more advanced economies so like Singapore and Japan, for example, 187 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 3: haven't provided this right to their citizens. Presumably once India 188 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: or if India rather were to make marriage equality or 189 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 3: possibility it would definitely sort of draw talent to India, 190 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: people who would feel safer working here, living here, being 191 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 3: able to get their partners on visas, and not having 192 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 3: to sort of jump through hoops pretending that they were 193 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 3: moving in, you know, or living with a friend. So 194 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: all of those things would make India sort of a 195 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 3: stand out in the region where this access to equality 196 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: of basic equality hasn't been made possible so far. 197 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 4: And to add to Muniza's point, the scale of the 198 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 4: judgment is enormous. India is, by some estimates already the 199 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 4: world's most populous nation, and so to legalize same sex 200 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: marriage would extend benefits to more than one point four 201 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 4: billion people. To get a sense of the scale of this, 202 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 4: it would more than double the number of people globally 203 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 4: with marriage equality rights. As hosts of the G twenty 204 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 4: this year as well, India's government, which is led by 205 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 4: Prime Minister Nearendromodi, could use this ruling as evidence that 206 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 4: the country isn't as regressive on minority rights, for instance. 207 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 4: That's a criticism that's often made by Western governments, and 208 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 4: so there's a political mileage that could be gained from 209 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 4: this ruling as well, that goes beyond the leverage that 210 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 4: the ruling could provide in terms of attracting talent from 211 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 4: other parts of Asia or other parts of the world. 212 00:12:52,559 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: Our conversation continues after the break, Munizer. We've talked about 213 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: the significance of this case before India's Supreme Court and 214 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: what it could mean both inside the country and around 215 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: the world. Really, let's focus now on what's happening outside 216 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: the court. What are various political groups within the country 217 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: saying about this issue. 218 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: To begin with, we'll hear what the government actually thinks 219 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: in a few days their affidavit to the court. The 220 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 3: you know, the Law Ministry stating the government's position will 221 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 3: be made available because the government has to take its 222 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 3: stand before the Supreme Court, so we know more specifically 223 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: what the government has to say. The interesting thing is 224 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: there hasn't been very much said at all, and that 225 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 3: can be extrapolated as a positive thing. I think the 226 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 3: positive has been that there hasn't been any backlash. Really, 227 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: I suspect some of it as the government is beating 228 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 3: and watching. It's a crucial election here, so if it 229 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 3: feels like this might not be socially acceptable, who knows 230 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 3: large Actually, what will be interesting to see is the 231 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 3: two elements where this ruling could go. One is how 232 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 3: it affects Hindu marriage. Marriages in India guided by personal 233 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 3: religious laws, So the Hindus have the Hindu Marriage Act, 234 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: the Muslims have Muslim personal law, and then there is 235 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: the civil code under which interfaith marriages happened. 236 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: We know that the ruling BJP has previously opposed broadening 237 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 4: the Hindu Marriage Act, which applies to most of the population. 238 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 4: Officials have argued that including same sex couples would legitimize 239 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 4: what they've called a particular human conduct and that it 240 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 4: would run against Indian values. Lawyers generally expect there to 241 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 4: be some opposition within the government, but that's not necessarily 242 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 4: being framed as a bad thing. And to sidestep some 243 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 4: of these issues, most of the petitions appearing before the 244 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 4: Supreme Court fall under a different marriage Act, which is 245 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 4: used for secular and interreligious unions. Lawyers hope that this 246 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 4: route will avoid some of the land mines that are 247 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: associated with amending laws specifically bound with religion, and they're 248 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 4: building their case around the idea that marriage equality is 249 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: ultimately about fundamental rights under India's constitution, that it's not 250 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 4: necessarily a moral issue. 251 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: Munisa. More than a century ago, you right, that India 252 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: was much more tolerant than it has been, and that 253 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: that is really a legacy of colonialism, that it is 254 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: something that the British brought with them. Can you describe 255 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: how that happened and how it played out. 256 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: Hindu mythology is very, very open when it comes to sexuality. 257 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: There are you know, gods that changed gender, men become women, 258 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 3: men have babies. It's all very fluid. Even for the 259 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: many one hundred years of Mughal Muslim rule in India, 260 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 3: erotic homo erotic poetry, same sex, so love, none of 261 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: it was criminalized. And then you know, so in eighteen 262 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: sixty one when the British took over rule of India, 263 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: that is when the law was codified and draft to 264 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: make homosexuality a crime. Academics and experts who've been looking 265 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: at this will say that, you know, while modern India, 266 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: India today will often people who oppose gay marriage, for example, 267 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 3: will critique gay marriage as a Western import, but what 268 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: really is a Western import is the criminalization of homosexuality, 269 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 3: and that ancient and even medieval Indian culture was very 270 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: open and accepting, if not sort of warmly embracing it. 271 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 4: Kay. 272 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court is said to hear this case later 273 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: this month. What do you expect? Are there signs of 274 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: which way the court may ultimately come down? 275 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 4: The Supreme Court is a fairly progressive institution in India 276 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 4: and it's led by a largely progressive Chief Justice. Last year, 277 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 4: the Court offered a hint at how the case might go, 278 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 4: ruling that same sex couples and other what they've called 279 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 4: non traditional families are entitled to social welfare benefits. And 280 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 4: so I think there's an optimism in the legal community 281 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 4: that the ruling could be apot one. What we're waiting 282 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 4: on is to understand better the government's position in all 283 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 4: of this. But ultimately, the Supreme Court is an independent institution. 284 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 4: The Chief Justice has the power to choose the bench, 285 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 4: and lawyers are optimistic that unless there are widespread protests 286 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 4: against the marriage equality case, that a ruling could come 287 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 4: as early as this summer this fall. 288 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: Muniza Knakbe Kai Schultz, thanks so much for speaking with 289 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: me today. 290 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you Wes. 291 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: When we come back a broader look at same sex marriage, 292 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: where is it allowed and where is it still outlud 293 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: India isn't alone in considering same sex marriage. In recent years, 294 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: several nations have legalized it, but there are many places 295 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: where same sex relationships are still against the law. For 296 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: a global picture of where things stand, ger chat and 297 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: Sandu joins me from jin Eva, Switzerland. They're the director 298 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: of programs at ILGA World, which advocates for the rights 299 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: of LGBTI people. Great Chatton, could you give us a 300 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: little tour of the world. Same sex marriage has been 301 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: expanding in many places, but not in all. Can you 302 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: tell us where it's legal and where it's not. 303 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 6: We currently have thirty three UN member states with full 304 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 6: marriage equality, thirty four with other forms of what we 305 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 6: call civil partnerships. The latest countries that have introduced marriage 306 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 6: equality in twenty twenty one was Chile, twenty twenty two, 307 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 6: it was Switzerland, Slovenia and Cuba, and this year so 308 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 6: far it's Andorra and I believe there are other discussions 309 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 6: happening in Japan as well. 310 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: Are there regions of the world where you're seeing movement 311 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: forward and other places where either there is no movement 312 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: or there's active moves against marriage equality. 313 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 6: If we look at the question just purely from a 314 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 6: marriage perspective, marriage equality perspective, Yes, there are certain moves 315 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 6: towards that. A lot of the discussions or narratives around 316 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 6: decriminalization of same sex intimacy, or the fear around decriminalization 317 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 6: is that it would lead to marriage equality and the 318 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 6: call for marriage equality. We are hearing from governments in 319 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 6: parts of West Africa where there's no not even a 320 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 6: ban on same sex intimacy, they have no laws. They 321 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 6: are thinking of introducing those bands on same sex intimacy 322 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 6: to ensure that there is no marriage equality. So it's 323 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 6: going the opposite way. This is in parts of Africa 324 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 6: and Asia. We also see even in the USA with 325 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 6: versus Wade, the whole of the argument around same sex 326 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 6: marriage was pinned on the decision around roadways Wade. So 327 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 6: what you see is that it's not so much the 328 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 6: attack on same sex marriage or marriage equality. You see 329 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 6: that it's a chipping away at these well fought rights 330 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 6: that have been gained so far that eventually lead to 331 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 6: marriage equality. On one side you have a block and 332 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 6: the other side you have a move which could then 333 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 6: send marriage equality backwards as well. And it's not one 334 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 6: region is leading, it's different patterns. I think it's always 335 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 6: best to avoid looking at the world in a homogeneous 336 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 6: way or in different regions in a homogeneous way. And 337 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 6: in fact, one of the most disturbing patterns is actually 338 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 6: coming from North America and Western Europe, a where you 339 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 6: see these growing anti trans anti gender rhetorics which could 340 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 6: definitely play into the same sex marriage equality rights as well. 341 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: You mentioned Cuba as being a country that has advanced 342 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: marriage equality last year. Is there a pattern at all 343 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: between democracies and non democracies when it comes to enacting 344 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: these laws. 345 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 6: Indeed, I think that's something very interesting that there is 346 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 6: data that is correlated to this, and that we find 347 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 6: that where there's our higher account or higher evaluation of democracies, 348 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 6: there is more freedoms afforded towards LGBTIQ plus people. Indeed, 349 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 6: in the case of Cuba, that is the anomaly in 350 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 6: that sort of discussion. You know, we are seeing right now, 351 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 6: in particular, at a time when we are seeing growing 352 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 6: anti gender, anti rights rhetorics there are linked to anti 353 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 6: democratic movements, anti bodily autonomy rhetoric. They all do go 354 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 6: to a hand in hand with a growing threat on democracy. 355 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 6: A contrary to what I was saying earlier, there are 356 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 6: patterns of merging. There is you know, there is the 357 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 6: domino effect. Yes, we see one country and then the 358 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 6: others following. However, that does not mean every single country 359 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 6: will follow because there's still many parts of the world, 360 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 6: especially in Asia and in Africa, punitive laws against same 361 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 6: sex into So whilst you will see this happening, it 362 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 6: won't guarantee that every single country will then follow suit. 363 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 6: There has to be certain enabling factors and enabling conditions. 364 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: So in authoritarian states you see less tolerance for both 365 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: same sexual relationships and marriage equality. 366 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 6: Indeed, that's a growing pattern that we have seen, yes, 367 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 6: and I think there's data around that, especially from our 368 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 6: partners and members from the Global Council of Equality that 369 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 6: have done great work around this, who have tied work 370 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 6: on democracy and LGBTIQPUS rights, and in fact there has 371 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 6: been other research that has been done, including not just 372 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 6: on democracy, but on economic growth as well. We see 373 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 6: that when there's a percentage increase in rights or more 374 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 6: rights being afforded, in particular to marginalized populations, especially those 375 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 6: who identify as LGBTIQ PUS. We see a percentage growth 376 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 6: in GDP as well. This is some great research that's 377 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 6: come out from the US and from the Netherlands and. 378 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: Seeing all the change that's happening all around the world. 379 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: When you look ahead, what do you see for the 380 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: future of marriage equality. 381 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 6: We are moving towards marriage equality, but I would like 382 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 6: to preface this. In twenty nineteen ILGA World we produce 383 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 6: what it's called the State Sponsored Homophobia Report. In our report, 384 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 6: marriage equality was seen as the gold standard as the 385 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 6: go to you know, we've reached it. However, in twenty nineteen, 386 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 6: our team decided against that and said no, this should 387 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 6: not be the gold standard because it sends a very 388 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 6: one sided view. So what we said that the gold 389 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 6: standard should be is constitutional rights. So once lgbtiquplus rights 390 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 6: are enshrined in the constitution, we have better chances of 391 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 6: ensuring equality for all the journey towards that could be 392 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 6: one route to that is marriage equality. Indeed, we saw 393 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 6: last year and the Netherlands have included or introduced now 394 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 6: in their constitution lgbtiqplus protections. So I think some of 395 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 6: this narrative around marriage equality is very, very import but 396 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 6: also need We cannot just focus on that alone. It 397 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 6: cannot be our end goal. Our end goal is constitutional 398 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 6: protections and ensure because once we're in the constitution there 399 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 6: are constitutional laws are harder to change, whereas marriage quality laws. 400 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 6: They could change from the next five ten years, and 401 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 6: we indeed are going to see a positive direction. But 402 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 6: it shouldn't be the endpoint for us. 403 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: John and Sandu, thanks so much for speaking with me, 404 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me, Thanks for listening to us 405 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: here at The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from 406 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. 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