WEBVTT - The Cult of Policing, Part 1 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:10.840 It's it's could happen here? That's the podcast that this is. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:16.440 It's about things crumbling and uh, how to maybe uncrumble 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.160 some of the things that are crumbling. And today when 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:21.400 we think about the crumbles, when you start thinking about 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.279 the hell world that that we're all increasingly inhabiting, the 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.920 scary ship that is getting scarier day by day. Number 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:30.800 one on a lot of people's list is gonna be 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:35.720 the cops. Um real cause of anxiety for a significant 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.840 chunk of people listening to this podcast right now, including 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.400 its hosts Um Alexander, you and I have chatted before 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.760 on the air. Our guest today, Alexander Williams, Um, you 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.599 were a police officer in the past and you are 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:54.000 not currently and you want to chat about Um. The 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.400 topic kind of the way you pitched it to us 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.200 is there's a lot of aspects of police training that 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.839 are very similar to what colts do to indoctrinate people, 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.680 and you kind of wanted to speak on that. Yeah, 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.840 there's a lot of there's a lot of cross sections. UM. So, yeah, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:12.160 I used to be a cop. I was in law 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:16.600 enforcement for just shot a fifteen years until I woke 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.840 up and got out luckily, and all the stuff that's 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.160 been going on over the last couple of years, and 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:28.240 the craziness and really ingesting a lot of stuff around, 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.800 you know, cults, And I've started going down that the 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.880 little checklist that you go down of like are you 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.680 in a high control group? And man, they all just 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.640 look just deemed in my head every single time of like, oh, 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:42.800 this is exactly what it was like being a cop. Oh, 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:44.559 this is exactly what it was like being a cop. 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.120 And I'm curious, kind of before we get more into it, 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:49.920 do you want to walk us through a little bit 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.920 more kind of what was your process of Um. I 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.520 don't de radicalization isn't exactly the right term, but I 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.000 think you know what I'm getting. It's it's in the 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.360 it's in the it's in the neighborhood Shore. Yeah. Mine. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.920 So I was raising a cop family. My dad was 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.880 a copy, went the whole nine yards, retirement, the whole thing. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:15.120 And when I got into it, just shy of twenty 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.720 two years old, which that's young to be making those 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.560 kinds of choices looking back on it. Um. We had 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.840 talked on the last podcast of your season one, UM 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.559 about when my brother got arrested and got beat by 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.560 my own team. My my own crew, and the jail 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.079 that I worked with, which is the jails is where 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.919 I primarily spent most of my time. And I think 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.720 that that was ah item number one kind of on 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.320 my shelf, like people call it, that's that's that's a 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:51.000 big one to right on the shelf. Um. And during 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.600 my training, I've always been an obstinate little bastard and 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.480 I've always had that kind of like authority defiance. And 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.040 in training they say start telling you really early, like hey, 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.360 you know what you know where your family? We understand you, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.400 We're gonna get you. And then like the language even 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.240 then kind of flared red flags wrong for me. And 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.760 whenever a group of people says we're your family, and 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.519 so right, like that's what you like, we're your family 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.680 and you can talk to us anytime. Fine, where your family? 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.080 And I got your back. Fine, we're your family, and 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.200 that's why you need to do this. Things have gone 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.760 to ride. It's it's it usually is where your family? 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:36.920 Comma now? Yeah? Yeah, and yes, So that that was 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.880 like literally day one, it was where your family? Now, 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:41.840 where you're you know, they use all that language. The 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:46.720 familiar language where your brothers, your sisters. Yeah, And the 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.320 one that kicked for me and my brain was they said, 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.240 within a year, you're not gonna have any friends that 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.000 aren't cops. Like all of your friends are going to 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.360 be gone because they're not going to understand you and 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:01.880 they're not going to be able to be around you 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.280 and handle you. So within a year, you know, we're 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.880 going to be everything you've got. And for me, that 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:09.800 was like that was a line in the sand, and 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:11.920 like part of my brain was screaming like, nope, never 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.200 letting that happen. I will not let my uh myself 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.760 not have any non cop friends. Yeah, that's probably good 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.280 because that's I mean, you have like when it it 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.720 gets to it's the same thing that happens to anybody, right, 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.520 like some people got like last year in Portland and 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:29.920 activist Brain, where there was this all the people were 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.200 spending time with other people were out protesting, and so 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.960 we have this really intense bond and we also are 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.320 kind of separated, increasingly separated from the people around us 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.520 because we just can't communicate with anybody else. And that 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:43.680 kind of going on for years and years because this 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.520 is your career for twenty something years, and it's like, yeah, 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.320 that would you'd be, you'd be after a couple of 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.080 years of that you were inhabiting a different planet. They 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.200 really are. And it's the how you said that, like, 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.360 you know, this is usually twenty to thirty years, you know, 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:00.279 because you want to get that sweet retire a minut 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.280 at the end after you've abused your mind and your 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:07.000 body for three decades um. It was it keyed off 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:08.880 something that you and Garrison talked about in a previous 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:14.360 episode of The Hiring Practices where the Washington Stay guys 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.560 and they were they got busted because the therapist was 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.800 showing tons of bias, and that brought up for me 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:26.240 the hiring process because those psych exams are the only 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.159 time as a cop that you get a psych exam. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:35.400 That's the only time you ever talked to a therapist mandatorially. Yeah. Yeah, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.599 it's a really bad move. And there's a joke in 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.960 cop culture of like, well, yeah, you gotta pass it 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.080 before you get hired, because after you get hired, you're 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.200 never going to pass that test. M because you know, 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.760 being a cop is is micro dosing PTSD in your 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:56.240 system the entire time. See I guess one thing I'm 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.320 wondering because you you were in it for fifteen years, 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.440 so that's that's not an insignificant band of time. Has 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.840 it gotten to be more that way? Because I knew 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.839 about fifteen something years ago when I was like eighteen nineteen, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.159 just like I lived in the shitty little apartment complex, 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.599 and like the dude who live below above me, and 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.240 then like the dude who lived two doors down. We're 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:20.719 both Dallas cops um, and I don't know, like I 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.159 you know, I was not particularly political at that point, 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.640 but I didn't They didn't seem to have trouble relating, 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:27.840 Like they would hang out and ship after work, like 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.400 just like not like like we would be like barbecuing 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:33.200 outside and they would drop by and stuff, and it 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:34.840 was never I never got the sense that they were 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.000 living in a separate planet. But this is like fifteen 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.960 years ago, and I'm wondering, what to what extent do 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.400 you think this is kind of increased in recent memory, 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:49.680 Like this the kind of you don't really socialize with 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.640 people outside of the family, so to speak. It is 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:55.440 kind of like that. So, yeah, a lot of the 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.479 language you're using is perfect because so what you're describing 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.400 and what I remember from being a kid in the 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.360 eighties and the nineties and stuff was um community policing, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.360 Like it's it's a literal style of policing, going back 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.280 to more of like the professional police style before it 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:16.560 went military, and in areas where people actively live in 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.440 their community and engage with their community, there's a striking 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:26.680 difference in the level of police violence that happens. But nowadays, uh, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.040 it's not the same thing because a lot of especially 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:33.720 in bigger metropolitan areas, you're a cop there, you can't 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.200 afford to live there. You're you're definitely not getting paid 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.240 enough to live most of the time in the cities 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.720 that you're supposed to be, you know, a part of. 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.520 And it's gotten to the point where they actually teach 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.680 this like method up methodically in academies. They'll be like, hey, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.080 if you want to be a cop in a big town, 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.920 you need to start shopping around in the smaller cities 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:54.800 around it to find a place to live, maybe like 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.440 an hour away. Um. And then they also pitch it 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.360 as a safety thing because it's all about you know, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.800 the cheology grossman, we're all under attack, So they'll teach 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.280 people you know what, it's it's safest to not live 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.640 in the town where you're a cop now m So 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.720 it's become intentional and it's one of those things where 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:17.640 because I don't want to breeze past. This is not 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.200 the episode world talk about community policing. There's very good 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.680 criticisms of community policing, and there's a lot of things 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.400 that doesn't solve. But I think it's yeah, yeah, absolutely, 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:27.840 we're not trying to say, like the solution is just 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.000 to get cops, you know, to be members of their communities. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.400 But it it is worse when they're driving in from 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.160 an hour out of town and see it as like 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.120 I'm occupying almost this area like it does. Yeah, that 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.800 language fits perfectly, especially with Grossman and all that. Yes, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.880 and we've got a two partner on David Grossman up 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:48.439 behind the Bastards if you want to check it out. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.480 But he's kind of the one of the big one 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:52.800 of the big individuals who's who's done the most to 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.440 like really push um. I don't even like it's usually 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.959 framed as militarized thinking, but I don't know a lot 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.760 of soldiers who have been who were trained to think 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.520 that way about ship like most of the people I 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.559 know who were getting shot at every day for years overseas, 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.800 we're not thinking the way Grossman does. No, that's probably 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:26.640 because he never actually wouldn't did anything. I think maybe 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.400 we should probably Alexander, have you go start going through 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.480 this um this document you put together, kind of walking 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.120 through UM and I wonder if you might start when 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.760 you kind of started thinking about police training in the 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:43.240 mindset inculcated inside police departments from like a cultic perspective. 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.680 When did that really start to come together for you? Uh? 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.679 It probably really started to come together. Um uh when 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.040 actually when I got involved, I used to be an instructor, 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:55.880 when I got you know, behind that part of the curtain, 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.640 and I got involved in those things. UM and I 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.480 started going to teaching, and I started teaching other departments 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.520 that would come to us, and it was it was 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.360 a joke in my head at first, was like, oh, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.640 we all speak the same language. And then that got 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.360 my brain rolling on linguistics and how linguistics work and 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.840 how that you know, the words we use change how 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.120 we perceive reality. And then I clicked and I was like, oh, 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.480 we're like a we're a subculture. We're we're like, no 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.200 matter where you go in the country, we are a 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.560 little subculture. We are a little group. And uh, that's 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.160 what started to kind of push me towards like it's 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.840 like being in a cult, because you know, you grow 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.720 up around Central California and there's a lot of really 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.599 religious people and you start seeing the intersectionality of it 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.760 really fast. Yeah, and that's interesting because we've talked a 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.960 few times on various shows I've done about how any 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.640 good subculture, any really good party, has elements of like 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.360 a cult. Right, There's there's little bits of that. There's 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:58.240 bits of that in friendship and Whatnotah. Yeah, Yeah, it's 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.440 just a thing like cults are taking advance nage, like 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.720 pulling a bunch of things that people do together in 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.400 order to manipulate human beings. Um, I'm wondering kind of 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.800 where where you think where are some of the areas 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.040 you think it kind of crosses the line with police 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.880 from like this is you know a degree of like 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.280 I'm sure firefighters have a degree with this, you know. Um, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.439 these are people that like I hang around with all 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.760 the time and we wipe up in some intense situations 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.080 together that causes there are culti aspects. That's always going 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.160 to cause Um, I'm wondering, kind of where where are 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.560 the first areas you started to realize this, this is 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:36.840 crossing that line of Probably the first area is in 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.959 how much the department like and this was universal and 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.240 lots of departments that I had contact with, is how 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.280 much the department owns you? And I mean like they 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.080 use that language. They they'll tell you like, we own you. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.440 Like anything you do in your personal life, your first 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.880 thought needs to be how does this affect my department 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.760 and my my sheriff, my chief, my whatever. Like every 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.040 single thing you do is supposed to be potentially pr 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.680 for the department. So they tell you flat out in 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.520 the forefront of your mind every waking moment you're on duty, 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.640 you're you're you're here, we own you. Um. And that 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.760 that was the first one that was just like, oh, man, 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:18.880 like no, I punch out at the end of my 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:23.200 shift and I go home. This isn't like, this isn't 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.000 this is a job. It's not supposed to be a life, 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.920 it's it's And that that was the first one that 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.320 started going it. Um. Probably the second one that I 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.920 really noticed was that you can tell anyone's a cop, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.000 because they'll tell you within about five seconds of meeting them, 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.840 but their cop. If you're at a bar, you're at 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.640 a party or at whatever, they'll be like, Hi, my name, 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.840 my MI name's Alexander. I work for the christ part 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.160 Like it's it's gonna come out of their mouth in 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.400 two seconds, because it is. It's their identity, it's their 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.520 entire sense of self. Yeah, I wonder because one of 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.600 the things we've seen in the last couple of years 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.480 in particular, is aspects of that bleed out, like the 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.079 thin blue lion flags and stuff. And some of that's 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.280 some of that's just you know, signpost. Some of that's 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:09.040 just I know people who were in uh certain jobs 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.960 where they transported things that were sketchy and had those flags. 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.000 Is like, well, maybe the cop won't search marr, you know, 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.920 but like there and there's elements that they're just you know, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.000 I don't want the cops to stop me from you know, 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.080 fucking with these people or whatever. But I I think 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.360 there's also elements of that um and I think probably 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.720 television is to blame for aspects of this, but of 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.839 kind of that sheep dog culture as as a as 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.520 Grossman calls that are starting to bleed over into chunks 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.520 of the civilian world. Um, And I guess I'm wondering 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.640 kind of like, yeah, what that looks like as a 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.440 as someone on like the the deep inside of that 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.320 as a police officer, Like what is it? I'm wondering, 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.520 like to what extent where you kind of conscious of 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.480 that aspect of society like filling out around you, like 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.120 some of these like the cult of the of the 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:02.400 heroic police officer kind of spreading to be um something new, 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.640 which which it really started doing from like two thousand 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.000 and eighteen up to the present moment is when a 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.000 lot of that shift seems to have happened based on 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.320 kind of what I've saw. No, that timeline fits perfectly 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.840 because I remember when I first got hired, the thin 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.480 blue line. It existed. It was a thing, but it 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.360 was just it was just a matte black with a 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.240 blue line and that was it. Uh. And I you 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.800 didn't really even in cop culture, like I didn't grow 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.680 up seeing that thing in the eighties and the nineties 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:30.520 met much, not at all. And then when I was 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:32.680 in the department in the in the in the two thousand's, 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.160 you kind of saw it. Every now and again, someone 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.960 might have a pelpin like in the department, but out 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:43.880 in public, nobody had that stuff. No nobody, nobody had 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.040 any of that rocking stuff. And it didn't It never 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.400 really bothered me until it showed up on an American 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.160 flag and then that was that was a big red 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.720 flag of like, oh this this is bad. I was like, 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.320 this is this is nationalism, guys, this isn't good. And 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.320 like my whole crew looks me and go what's nationalism? 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:05.280 And I'm just like, fuck, is there this like sense 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.760 that people are totying or is it this sense that 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.200 like this is kind of the silent majority that backs 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.560 us in doing whatever hard work we need to do. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.840 I think it's started out as tody, it really did, 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.600 and it's but it's now shifted into um this whole like, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.240 you know, you get those guys that are like, oh, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:25.760 if I see a cop getting in a fight, I'm 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:27.280 gonna get out of my car and I'm gonna jump 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.920 in there and I'm gonna back them up because they're 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.640 like they're playing top They really want that authority or 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.640 that whatever, but for whatever reason they don't go do it. Um. Yeah, 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.840 but this has been a way of like kind of 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.520 they get to see themselves as being like a posse 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.840 kind of a thing, like I'm in the I'm in 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.560 the club. I'm not in the club, but like they're 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.720 my buddies and is there. I don't know, does that 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.320 make being in the club cooler? The fact that there's 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.240 these kind of posses forming around it, the people kind 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.400 of work worshiping, the culture associated with it. Mean, there 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.240 probably is now, but honestly, when I was in there 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.360 freaked me the hell out. It really really creeped me out. 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.280 I didn't like it at all. Yeah, I mean, you 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.760 have to think about, if you're if you're a reasonable person, 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.280 how weird it would be to see your job turned 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.360 into a cult like Garrison. You know that feeling um 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.440 or you're you're going to learn when we when we 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.960 make the coult. Yeah, okay, so I wanted to. I 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:25.560 guess let's let's let's get back to this kind of 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.280 list you put together, because you were sort of going 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.800 through different hallmarks of what makes something a cult. One 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.440 of them is the group displays and excessively zealous and 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.320 unquestioning commitment to its leader and whether he is alive 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.480 or dead, regards his belief system, ideology in practices as 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.080 the truth as law. Um, and I'll remind you we 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.920 were not talking about my podcast. We're talking about cults here. 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:55.239 Uh that's right. Um, yes, stay quiet, garrisons. They're just smiling, 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.960 silently staring at us through zoom. I see you, okay, 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.760 And you've written under this the law is the higher power. 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.040 They grant control of their actions. Blind faith in the 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.439 system frees them from having to consider their role in 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.920 the system. It's my job to arrest in charge high 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.159 let the court figure out the rest. It sounds a 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.240 lot like kill them all, let and let God sort 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.399 of out. In this case, the criminal justice system is 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.560 a direct replacement for God. I think, I think this 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.280 is this is a really good point. This is even 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.000 This is the thing even when I was like a 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.639 dumb kid and thought cops were fine, This was the 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:29.840 one thing that even like just even still freaked me 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:31.840 out about cops because every once in a while you 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.520 would see a video of like the cot was randomly 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.920 like assaulting somebody, and then other cops nearby just mindlessly 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.040 join in, and I'm like, whoa, that's so such a 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.680 weird kind of group dynamic of they see someone doing 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.760 something and they just don't question it at all and 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.560 immediately back it up, no matter what actually was happening, 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.480 because like I always tried to think things through more 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.479 like logically, and that type of like mindlessness really freaked 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.199 me out. And I think was maybe one of the 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.680 first things that was like huh, maybe it was. It 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.000 was one of the first cracks and like maybe cops 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.080 actually aren't good. Um, I think, yeah, I think this 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.640 is a really great point in terms of how this 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.560 ties into like, yeah, it's my job to it's my 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.600 job to arrest and charge. I don't sort out what 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.359 happens afterwards, so it doesn't actually matter. Like it's like 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.040 I'm not I'm not actually hurting these people because if 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.159 if they did something wrong, it's going to get figured 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.480 out in the court system. I'm just doing this like 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.679 preliminary task. It's it plays into a whole bunch of 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.960 like weird psychological things that make you feel better about 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.639 horrible actions you're doing because you have so much backing 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:38.040 that's going to make sure what you do actually isn't bad. Yeah, 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.159 this is like this, you know, this arrest, which may 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.520 be physical and ugly even if they're innocent later. It's 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:46.160 just part of what you have to do to get 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.159 to the point where you determine whether or not they're innocence. 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.240 So I'm not doing anything bad. Yeah. Yeah, And actually, Garrison, 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:53.639 I it's it's what you said. It's perfect because in 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:55.600 the bottom of the thing where I was just spewing 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.560 notes to myself, I literally put down here it's not 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.760 a job to them. It's a central component of their 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.840 sense of self. This is why they will do terrible 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:10.040 things to validate their perceived reality and how they things. Yeah, 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.600 they it's you might say, like, imagine how like think 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:15.320 about how hard it is to get people to admit 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.680 they're wrong about a political belief on Twitter, especially when 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.639 their name is attached to their account. Now imagine you 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.439 have like imagine that's the thing being argued, is like 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.159 the central thing around which you organize your life. And 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.040 also you get to shoot people who make you angry. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.480 Oh yeah, it's it's a rough situation to be in. 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.159 It is, it is. It's crazy. And the part that 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.280 I wrote of it's my job to arrest and charge 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:47.320 high I think that's that's a part of the mentality 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.720 of it is like, yeah, I don't want to say 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.480 it's like a game, but it almost is like a game. 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.920 It's almost like they're trying to get points, like score 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.320 high and talk to me about talk to me a 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.360 little when you say a rest and charge high kind 0:19:58.359 --> 0:19:59.840 of what is that? What does that sort of look 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:01.879 like on the ground before we get into kind of 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.639 why people do that. So when when you're using your 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.000 your powers of arrest, you're you're you're supposed to adhere 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.640 to a penal code, but there is code and I'm 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:15.160 always speaking to California because that's where I got my trainer. Um. 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.960 They don't expect cops to remember every single element of 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.760 every single PC code because that's ridiculous. No one's going 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.680 to be able to do that. Um. So there's there's 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.679 wigow room, there's play where I know you did this 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.920 thing and I know it's what they call a wobbler, 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.000 Like I can go felony and go misdemeanor. They'll teach 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:34.760 you in the academy. They're like, if it's a wabbler, 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.480 you always charge felony every single time, even if you 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.600 don't think it's gonna work, charge it felony, kick it 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.240 to the d A and let the d A c 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.240 if they can make it stick. And if they don't, whatever, 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.399 who cares. That's not part of our job anymore. Wow. 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.159 And yeah, And that's one of those things where a 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.439