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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a grieving mother is hoping

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Speaker 1: and praying that new evidence will shed light on her

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Speaker 1: daughter's murder. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and

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Speaker 1: Sirius XM one eleven. I'm talking about a gorgeous young girl,

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Speaker 1: Brittany Phillips. First of all, take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at k j R H. New evidence discovered by

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Speaker 1: her own family is breathing home back into this eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old cold case. Her mother, Maggie Zeman, says she

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Speaker 1: got a call from Brittany's father recently that left her

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Speaker 1: stunned all of a sudden. About a month ago, I

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Speaker 1: got this call from him and he said, I need

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Speaker 1: to show you something, but don't be upset with me.

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Speaker 1: Britney's father told Maggie that he had recently discovered a

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Speaker 1: birthday card Brittany had sent to him in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four to mail to her grandfather. It had a

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Speaker 1: mechanized white post office step, meaning it came out of

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Speaker 1: a machine that somebody EISI bought at a kiosk or

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Speaker 1: a post office desk. Okay, why would finding that card

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Speaker 1: shed light on the murder of her daughter and why

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Speaker 1: would she be angry at its discovery. First of all,

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Speaker 1: let's explain what happened to this teen girl, Brittany Phillips.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Ashley Holt child to Like many parents,

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Speaker 1: I thought this will never happen to me. She remembers

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Speaker 1: how it started. And I opened the door to this

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Speaker 1: young sheriff standing in the rain, and he had a

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Speaker 1: piece of paper in his hand, and he just quickly

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Speaker 1: said to me, are you maggizing. When I said yeah,

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Speaker 1: he said, you need to call Tulsa police. Your daughter

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Speaker 1: has been murdered. She had left Brittany a voicemail days before, Britty,

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Speaker 1: please call me. I know you're okay that I just

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Speaker 1: need to hear from you. Next thing she knew, she's

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Speaker 1: standing in Brittany's apartment, swarming with investigators. Britty dropped the

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Speaker 1: friend off at her apartment complex. At first memorial, Britney

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Speaker 1: drives home the last time her friend saw her. Then

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Speaker 1: go ahead and checked well being and find Brittany deceased

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Speaker 1: inside her apartment and joining me right now is Britney's mom,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Maggie Zengman. She's a trauma psychologist, and you can

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Speaker 1: find her at Brittany Phillips murder dot nett. On Facebook,

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Speaker 1: you can find her at mom dot missing dot Brittany. Maggie,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, well, thank you for

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Speaker 1: once again giving us a voice in this time period

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Speaker 1: that I could have never imagined would be. We'd be

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Speaker 1: going through this now, you know, doctor Maggie, doctor Maggie

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Speaker 1: Zing when this is Britney's mom. Do you still remember

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Speaker 1: that moment when you opened the door and there's a

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Speaker 1: sheriff standing there? Oh yeah, I mean, just as I

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Speaker 1: was listening to it again, even at eighteen years you know,

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Speaker 1: it brought tears to my eyes because I remember that shock.

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Speaker 1: I remembered not leaving it, and then I remembered this

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Speaker 1: sheriff just based in Chandler abandoning me. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: still remember that, you know with me, founder and director

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Speaker 1: of the Coal Case Research Institute and now star of

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Speaker 1: a hit podcast, Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum. You know, by

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Speaker 1: the sound of it, that may have been that sheriff's

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Speaker 1: first time at ever advising a family that they had

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Speaker 1: a dead loved one. You know, just tumbled out and

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Speaker 1: he just took ran for it, and he was probably

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Speaker 1: here to debt. I mean, those are the worst things

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Speaker 1: that you can do. I think in this profession they

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Speaker 1: know to get easier. You know, you're fixing a knock

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Speaker 1: on her door and destroy somebody's world. So it's a

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Speaker 1: difficult assignment for sure. Guys. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at crime Online. After graduating from Union High School,

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Speaker 1: Britney Phillips is off to Saint Petersburg, Florida and Eckard College.

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Speaker 1: The eighteen year old chemistry student is homesick and decides

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Speaker 1: to move back to Tulsa. Enrolling in Tulsa Community College,

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Speaker 1: Phillips gets an apartment across from her old high school.

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Speaker 1: Is was that her personality, Maggie. She was so homesick

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Speaker 1: for you and home. She's like, yeah, I want to

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Speaker 1: go to college, but not just far away from home. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, she actually finished a whole year,

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Speaker 1: but you know, she was a year younger than everybody,

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Speaker 1: so I wasn't surprised. At the end of the year.

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Speaker 1: It was like she didn't have a lot of contact

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Speaker 1: with her dad, so she wanted to be near family,

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Speaker 1: And of course I'm more than happy to let to

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Speaker 1: do that, you know, And I'm thinking about Brittany. I

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Speaker 1: want all of you to hear more about her in life.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Vincent Hill kJ RH.

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Speaker 1: Maggie says she had her hands full when she had

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Speaker 1: her second child, Brittany, so much so that she gave

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Speaker 1: her this nickname Accident because by the time she was three,

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Speaker 1: I think she had been to the emergency room three times.

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Speaker 1: As Brittany got older, Maggie says she worried for a

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Speaker 1: different reason. She was a typical teenager, yeah, running around

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Speaker 1: with her friend. Brittany was a great student. She graduated

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Speaker 1: a year early and headed off to college in Florida,

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Speaker 1: but quickly became homesick. She decided at the end of

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Speaker 1: the second semester to move back to Tulsa. Brittany enrolled

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Speaker 1: at Tulsa Community College and got her own apartment in

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Speaker 1: a location they thought would be safe where we had

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Speaker 1: never heard about anything bad happening. You know, I want

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Speaker 1: to go to Karen Start and joining me. Not only

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Speaker 1: longtime colleague, longtime friend. Karen Start renowed psychologist in the

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Speaker 1: Manhattan Jurisdiction. She's a trauma and crime expert at Karen

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Speaker 1: dot Com. That's Karen with a See Karen, you know,

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Speaker 1: we lived in New York for so long raising the

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Speaker 1: children there, and moved and then recently you and I

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Speaker 1: were talking about coming back and visiting. I'm like, the

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Speaker 1: crime is so awful, the crime is so terrible. I'm

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Speaker 1: afraid to even bring the twins back to go ice

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Speaker 1: skating at Rockefeller Center or go see a Broadway show.

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Speaker 1: You know, you do your best as a parent, and

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Speaker 1: you think about every decision how it will affect your children.

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Speaker 1: And here Maggie thought it was a great idea from

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Speaker 1: Britain to come back home. She got an apartment across

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Speaker 1: the street from her old high school for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: What could be safer than that? I need to tell him.

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Speaker 1: Men say that exactly what he said is true. Karen's

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Speaker 1: an effectively months for their children. They do everything they

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Speaker 1: can to make sure their children survive in their states.

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Speaker 1: You see it in the animal Things are right Like

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Speaker 1: Mother Dear is as good example. So when your child

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Speaker 1: dies before you, this use is unavailable and sounds with

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Speaker 1: compounded by thoughts of the other of them, and it's nonsensical.

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Speaker 1: But he did like he fails to do your job

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Speaker 1: to protect them. It's not logical, but feelings are not logical.

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Speaker 1: Maggie will never get over her daughter's film and sense

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Speaker 1: with stuff. It's conflict, and you know, I want to

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Speaker 1: go to Maggie again, Doctor Maggie Zimmerman, Britney Small. What

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Speaker 1: was running through your head regarding her safety when she

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Speaker 1: moved back home? Well, yeah, being a trauma survivor myself

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Speaker 1: being a trauma psychologist, you know, I taught her a

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Speaker 1: lot of things about safety and stuff, and we checked,

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Speaker 1: you know, the history of the apartment and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: so I felt pretty safe. I mean, I was more

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Speaker 1: worried about her when she was, you know, two thousand

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Speaker 1: miles away in Florida, you know, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, luckily, the other side of it is, I've

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Speaker 1: met a lot of parents who blame themselves in early

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Speaker 1: in the early first years. I really had to get

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Speaker 1: past that because her killer was going to get another

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Speaker 1: destroyed life if I kept in that. Let's fast forward.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Jackie Howard. On September

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Speaker 1: twenty seventh, Phillips plays chauffeur for a friend, taking them home,

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Speaker 1: and then talks to her mom on the phone. Over

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Speaker 1: the next couple of days, mother Maggie Zingman calls her

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Speaker 1: daughter to no answer. Getting worried, she leaves a message

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Speaker 1: for her to be in contact, But Zingman is not

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Speaker 1: the only one who's worried. During the same period of time,

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Speaker 1: Phillips miss his appointments in classes. One of the friends

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Speaker 1: requests the Tulsa City Police Department to do a wellness

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Speaker 1: check on Britney and more. A late night knock on

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Speaker 1: the door wakes Maggie Zingman on the other side of

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Speaker 1: her door, a homicide detective with the Tulsa Police Department.

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Speaker 1: When police perform their welfare check, they find Philip's body

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Speaker 1: and clear evidence of a struggle in her room. Police

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Speaker 1: say it is evident that Phillips tried to fight her attacker.

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Speaker 1: It's thought at one point the killer slammed her against

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Speaker 1: the wall. The medical examiner determines Phillips is raped and

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Speaker 1: strangled or suffocated. Her estimated time of death is between

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Speaker 1: nine pm on September twenty seventh and eight am on

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Speaker 1: September twenty eighth. To Britney's mom, doctor Maggie Zenglan, Doctor Maggie,

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Speaker 1: when did you learn about how your daughter's body was found?

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Speaker 1: About the scenario. We just laid forward the thinking as

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Speaker 1: to how she was killed. Well, when I was given

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Speaker 1: that information, I mean, one of my worst fears is

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Speaker 1: whenever Brady got upset, would go mommy, mommy, mommy, even

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Speaker 1: at eighteen years old. And so when I first heard

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Speaker 1: that information, I fell like that. You know, my concern

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Speaker 1: was that, you know, she had done that when she

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Speaker 1: was being killed, And the detective told me that most

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Speaker 1: likely by the evidence they found, it looked like she

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Speaker 1: died instantly. So but you know, I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's something you can't fathom. Hearing crime stories with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace to Cheryl McCollum, a forensic expert and founder of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute, explained to me Brittany's injuries

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Speaker 1: and how she was killed. Well, they believed that she

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Speaker 1: was either strangled or suffocated. She was found on the floor.

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Speaker 1: She was wearing a T shirt. And you know, there

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Speaker 1: was no fourth injury to the home. And you know,

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Speaker 1: she had some evidence under her fingernails and she they

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Speaker 1: look like, you know, even when they first all be

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Speaker 1: in that she had been thankfully assaulted. So when you

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Speaker 1: think of no fourth injury, you think, well, perhaps she

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Speaker 1: let somebody in too, Doctor Kendall, Crown's chief medical Examiner,

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Speaker 1: Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth Lecturer, University, Texas Austin and

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Speaker 1: at Texas Christian University Medical School, Dodgor Kendall Krouse, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. What do you make off

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Speaker 1: her injuries? So, in the individuals that are strangled or suffocated,

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Speaker 1: you can you can with suffocation you can actually have

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Speaker 1: no injuries found. And then with strangulations you're usually looking

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Speaker 1: for hemorrhages in the musculature of the neck and possibly

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Speaker 1: fractures of two specific locations, which is the highway bone,

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Speaker 1: which is a structure of the neck, and a Byroy carlage.

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Speaker 1: Often in younger women these are still very carlagnus or

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Speaker 1: they still have a lot of ben to them, so

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Speaker 1: you don't find a lot of findings with those. So really,

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Speaker 1: if you don't see injuries to the neck, you're looking

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Speaker 1: more for a suffocation. Okay, you say with a suffocation

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Speaker 1: like putting a pillow over someone's face, that you don't

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Speaker 1: see injuries, you'd still see the burst particular in the eye. Correct, No,

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Speaker 1: So to give particular hemorrhages you have to actually have

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Speaker 1: compression the next structure, specifically the juggular vein. You do

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Speaker 1: about four point four pounds of pressure to block off

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Speaker 1: the jugular vein, and then what happens is the crowd

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Speaker 1: it's still push blood into the head, but because the drain,

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Speaker 1: the drainage of the blood by the juggular is blocked,

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Speaker 1: the capillary start bursting and you see the particular hemorrhages

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Speaker 1: and you won't get that in a pillows type suffocation

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Speaker 1: because the basculture is not blocked off. You know, every

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Speaker 1: time I speak with you, doctor Kendall Crowns, I learned

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Speaker 1: something new. I thought that would any type of asphyxiation,

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Speaker 1: be it suffocation, strangulation, manual or lucator, that there would

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Speaker 1: be hemorrhage, particular the blood vessels in the eyes. But

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Speaker 1: that's only with strangulation, not suffocation. That's what you're saying, right, Okay.

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Speaker 1: In this case, Cheryl McCollum, was it strangulation or suffocation? Again, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: they didn't really make that determination, but it would have

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Speaker 1: appeared to me if she's taken from the bed and

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Speaker 1: thrown up against the wall and then she's fighting him

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Speaker 1: somewhat There was no pillar. There was nothing like that.

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Speaker 1: I would think strangulation. Doctor Maggie Seeman joining US trauma psychologist,

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Speaker 1: but she's Brittany's mom. Was it ever made clear to

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Speaker 1: you which mode of death? Now? From what I remember,

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Speaker 1: I remember they said something about that muscle or that

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Speaker 1: bone that he mentioned that that could have been a possibility.

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Speaker 1: They said there was a very faint unmark on one

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Speaker 1: side of the neck that you know, after her being

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Speaker 1: dead for four days. But you know, I think generally

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Speaker 1: they were saying suffocation, but they said, you know, there

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Speaker 1: were some minimal things to lead it to possitive being strangulation.

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Speaker 1: So I've always said both. And the reason I ask

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Speaker 1: is because I would think Cheryl McCollum, crime scene expert,

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Speaker 1: that if it had been manual strangulation, we might be

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Speaker 1: able to get touched DNA. Yep, that's a great thought.

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Speaker 1: There's no question about it. And that's why we believe

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Speaker 1: she bought him off and there was some evidence of

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Speaker 1: that under her fingernail exactly joining me now. Award winning

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter Andy Copsa. You can find Andy on Twitter

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Speaker 1: at Andy so with ak Andy, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Tell me what you know about the case

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Speaker 1: up to the point of the discovery of her body,

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Speaker 1: the area, Who has access to the pharmacy, anything you

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Speaker 1: can tell me. So you know, she is going back

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Speaker 1: and forth to Tulsa Community College, and it's not very far.

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Speaker 1: Tulsa is not a huge town, and she's going back

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Speaker 1: and forth with her friends. She's also in their months.

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Speaker 1: And looking at it from an investigative standpoint, I want

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Speaker 1: to know where she was even in the months leading up.

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Speaker 1: So she had a job at an Applebee's in June

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Speaker 1: and July. Did somebody see her potentially at Applebee's where

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Speaker 1: there are other workers there. She had a job at Cheddars.

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Speaker 1: You know, she had these different jobs plus going to school,

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Speaker 1: and it was all in the and Maggie can correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, all pretty much in the centralized

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Speaker 1: area of Tulsa, And so you know, between school and

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Speaker 1: doing her work and going home every once in a

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Speaker 1: while on the weekend, she was pretty much in that

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Speaker 1: central area. But in the days, so like in the

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Speaker 1: immediate days leading up to and up to the day

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Speaker 1: of her her death or supposedly, I think we have

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Speaker 1: some questions about that. But you know, she spent time

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Speaker 1: that last dam the twenty seventh, going to school. Then

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Speaker 1: she spent time an hour and a half to two

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Speaker 1: hours at an urgent care center. And I've detailed time.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to help Maggie kind of put this all

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Speaker 1: on a map, so we jog memories. But they spent

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Speaker 1: time at an urgent care center. She wasn't feeling well,

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Speaker 1: this area down by being clover Leaf Intersection with all

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Speaker 1: these businesses around with a friend. Then she went to

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Speaker 1: a Bank of America, and then to the best of

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Speaker 1: our knowledge, she got home that night around eight or

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Speaker 1: nine pm and then talked to Maggie. Now that's where

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Speaker 1: the timeline stopped. But there's some questions now as to

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Speaker 1: whether or not that was maybe the last day that

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Speaker 1: she was actually alive. But it is the last day

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Speaker 1: that we know that she was in contact with Maggie

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Speaker 1: and doctor Maggie. Isn't it true that? Well, let me

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Speaker 1: ask you, how often did you guys speak? We spoke

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Speaker 1: usually at least a couple of times a week, and

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Speaker 1: more near the end of the week, because I lived

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Speaker 1: about forty fifty miles away, and so we would always

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Speaker 1: call and talk and plan the weekend. So after I

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Speaker 1: talked to her Monday and she was frustrated about not

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Speaker 1: getting into the doctor. I said, well, i'll talk to

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Speaker 1: you Thursday or Friday, and you know, we'll set up

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Speaker 1: a time. But like any mother, I called her Tuesday

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Speaker 1: and Wednesday and Thursday. Well why was she going to

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Speaker 1: the doctor. What was wrong? She had a lot of

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Speaker 1: stinus problems and she was just miserable all the time.

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Speaker 1: And she waited there for like two hours and it

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Speaker 1: was an evening hour, so she hadn't getting in. You know,

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Speaker 1: Matthew T. Mengino is joining me. High profile lawyer joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Lawrence County, the author of the Executioner's Toll, Crimes,

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Speaker 1: Arrest Trials, Appeal's Last Meal, final Words and executions of

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Speaker 1: forty six people across the US. Matthew Mangino, thanks for

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Speaker 1: being with us. You know, I was just thinking, Matthew,

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Speaker 1: about all the potential suspects. She works at Appleby, she

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Speaker 1: works at Cheddars. She was in school that day, in

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Speaker 1: all of her classes, walking back and forth. She was

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Speaker 1: at a dock in the box, you know, like a

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Speaker 1: first aid station. Hundreds of people could have seen Brittany

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Speaker 1: Phillips that day. But what we have learned in the

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Speaker 1: recent case of the four Idaho students murdered that attended

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Speaker 1: University Idaho. We now believe their eleged killer, Brian Coburger,

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Speaker 1: had been stalking them for some time. This was someone

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Speaker 1: outside of their sphere, someone that wasn't where they worked

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Speaker 1: or where they went to school. He was at Washington

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Speaker 1: State University, about fifteen miles away across the state line,

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Speaker 1: so he would not have fallen into the normal category

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Speaker 1: of who she worked with at Applebee's. It shatters who

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Speaker 1: was at the dock in the box, who was in

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Speaker 1: her class, So it doesn't necessarily have to be someone

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Speaker 1: in their outer sphere. Well, no, it doesn't, Nancy, although

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Speaker 1: I think, uh, you know, investigators or are going to

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Speaker 1: you know, follow through on every possibility. So at the outset,

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Speaker 1: you're going to begin to canvas the neighborhood you're going

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Speaker 1: to be, You're going to go to the places that

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Speaker 1: she frequently went. You're going to go to her classes

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Speaker 1: in her uh college and try to piece together a

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Speaker 1: timeline of where she was or who she interacted with.

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Speaker 1: But but you know, just like in the Idaho cases,

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Speaker 1: this wasn't This doesn't appear to be something that would

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Speaker 1: just be random, exactly right. This this is something where

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Speaker 1: at least this person knew where she was going to

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Speaker 1: be when she would probably be there. Who apartment was

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Speaker 1: her apartment? This wasn't just someone at least I think,

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Speaker 1: who says on a whim, I'm going to follow this

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Speaker 1: young woman into her apartment and uh, you know, sexually

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Speaker 1: assault and kill her. I think this is this is

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Speaker 1: someone who had planned and had stalked her, and so

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Speaker 1: there's the possibility with that that someone observed him doing

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Speaker 1: what he was doing. Guys, let's move forward. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friend Ashley Holt to Tulsa. Please say

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Speaker 1: there were signs of an altercation before she was raped

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Speaker 1: and strangled to death. It's all I could think of

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Speaker 1: was how long she was heard, how long she was dead.

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Speaker 1: Investigators tested DNA from the scene. Any kind of crimes

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Speaker 1: that are even remotely similar we're looking into, but came

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Speaker 1: up with nothing. Doctor's Ingman's final goodbye to her daughter

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Speaker 1: through a blanket. I basically had pat her head as

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Speaker 1: I always had. I just rubbed my finger down her

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Speaker 1: nose and just yeah, I just said I'm sorry, pretty,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sorry. This happened. I'm sorry I didn't protect you.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that they won't even let me touch you.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's probably the case. I spend most of

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Speaker 1: my time on police figured the murderer could be anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Just thinking of you, doctor Maggie Singman touching her through

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Speaker 1: a blanket is just breaking my heart. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: I know that DNA was found at the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: and it has been tested against thousands of guys. It

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Speaker 1: has been run through every possible DNA data bank. I

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Speaker 1: want to go forward with the investigation. Let's go to

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Speaker 1: our cut eight, our friend Vincent Hill, Tulsa County share.

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Speaker 1: Vic Reggolotto was a homicide detective with Tulsa Police at

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Speaker 1: the time. Reggolatto says Britney's killer had likely stalked her before.

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Speaker 1: Whoever murdered her that night more than likely had seen

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Speaker 1: her before and knew that she lived in that apartment.

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Speaker 1: Reggolatto had a long list of suspects. Were talking individuals

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Speaker 1: that had backgrounds that would lead you to believe they

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Speaker 1: were potentially able and willing to do a crime such

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Speaker 1: as that two hundred and seventy six to be exact,

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Speaker 1: that either lived in the apartment complex or close by.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking you know, theft of women's underwear, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: of peeping tom's, I'm talving of rates. And to top

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Speaker 1: it all off, Cheryl McCollum tell us about a secret

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Speaker 1: door in Britney's closet. Yeah, so this little trap door,

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Speaker 1: if you've climbed up through it and dropped down behind

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Speaker 1: the closet, it was almost like this little cloister where

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Speaker 1: you could enter several of the apartments just from that

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Speaker 1: little center where you would drop down from. So if

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Speaker 1: you were an apartment A and you drop down into

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Speaker 1: that center, you get in her apartment B, C or

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Speaker 1: D through their trap door. So essentially this perpetrator could

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Speaker 1: have been laying in wait and therefore there would have

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Speaker 1: been no forced entry. However, it you know, may not

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Speaker 1: have appeared that way that what any does on the floor,

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Speaker 1: or there was no evidence to anybody had been drinking

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Speaker 1: or smoking or you know, eat anything back there and

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Speaker 1: told of being so warm. I don't know that you

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Speaker 1: could have stayed in that area. It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: an attic type temperature for a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: But it was something that what law enforcement noticed. It

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Speaker 1: became a concern to doctor Maggie Zengman, and you can

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Speaker 1: find her at Brittany Phillips and murder dot net. Doctor Maggie,

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Speaker 1: what is your gut feeling? Do you think the killer

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Speaker 1: came through the secret trap door in the closet. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, because I agree with Cheryl. You know, that

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Speaker 1: was a very hot time of year. But I it's

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's either that or years before

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Speaker 1: she was killed, or months before she was killed, she

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Speaker 1: had a friend shimmy himself up on her balcony because

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Speaker 1: she had locked herself out, and her balcony doors, you know,

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Speaker 1: were easy to open, and so you know, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: they possibly came that way, although I just recently, after

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stories I did, had a friend called

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Speaker 1: me and she said, you know, I had to keep

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Speaker 1: reminding Britty to knock to lock her door, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought I had taught her. But yeah, okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: a photo composite is created. How did they do that?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Sarah Whaley Pots twenty three police.

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Speaker 1: We're able to get DNA of Brittany's killer at the scene,

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Speaker 1: but that DNA has been sitting through the years until

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Speaker 1: now when long awaited technological advances have finally given detectives

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Speaker 1: their first lead in a very long time. Sergeant Shane

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Speaker 1: Toole says, recently, Para bond nano labs use the DNA

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Speaker 1: to come up with a phenotype report. They can narrow

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Speaker 1: down to a very good certainty of hair color, freckles, ethnicity,

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Speaker 1: and it ultimately led to this computer generated picture. Ziemann

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Speaker 1: says she now has new hope of having a visual

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Speaker 1: possibility is opening a big door, because it's not just

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Speaker 1: going to be some theme or some idea that somebody's

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Speaker 1: going to tampas on. It's going to be the way

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Speaker 1: the person looks now. I remember seeing the photo, Maggie, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: remember how thrilled we all were when a photo composite

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Speaker 1: was made based on pheno typing. A lot of hopes

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Speaker 1: were raised, only to be dashed. But Cheryl McCollum explain

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Speaker 1: what is ceno typing pe n O T Y P

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Speaker 1: I n G phenotyping. They are able to extract basically

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Speaker 1: features of a perpetrator with this phenotyping, so they can

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Speaker 1: tell hair color, skin color, eye color, whether or not

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Speaker 1: you've got dimples, whether or not you've got freckles, and

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Speaker 1: they come up with a composite it looks like the

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Speaker 1: person from the sample. And in this case, they came

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Speaker 1: up with a Caucasian male, one headed, blue eyes, and

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Speaker 1: Maggie did something extraordinary with that composite. I'll let her

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Speaker 1: tell you about it. Tell us, Maggie Sieingman, what did

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Speaker 1: you do well? For about fourteen years, I had traveled

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Speaker 1: in three different cars with caravan to katcha killer. I

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Speaker 1: took my story nationwide because I too believed her killer

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily in Oklahoma, then maybe he was Syria whatever.

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Speaker 1: But on my fourth third car, I took that picture

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Speaker 1: and got it wrapped. Because my car was rapped with

425
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: pictures of her. I put his picture on the front

426
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: of my hood. I didn't want to look at him,

427
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: but wherever I was, I wanted people to see that face.

428
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: And it did. It generated tips. For about three or

429
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: four months, we got seventy five tips of people saying, well,

430
00:27:49,280 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: it looks like him, it looks like him. Crime Stories

431
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace explained to me Cherylt. McCollum, how everyone's hopes,

432
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: including yours mine, Doctor Maggie's, were dashed. Explain oh gosh,

433
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: so ccmore got involved. Who's one of the best there

434
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: is as far as you know, looking at somebody's ancestry

435
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: and connecting them to crimes. And she'd got a perfect match.

436
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: She said, I know the person, and it was somebody

437
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: that law enforcement had already cleared. And so the composite

438
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: that she had placed on her car from Parabind had

439
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: to be removed. It wasn't the guy according to law enforcement.

440
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: So you know, here she had spent all these years

441
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: believing this was the person, this was his face. How

442
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: did they clear him? Because the sample was from the

443
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: home of a person that gave an explanation of why

444
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: his sample would have been there, and law enforcement accepted, including, Okay,

445
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: you know what, what are you trying to say? Do

446
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: you mean this was a person a male, that male

447
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: from that DNA that had been phenotyped that C. C. Moore,

448
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: who is brilliant, had isolated this is the guy. But

449
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: his DNA was there innocently. Is that what you're trying

450
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: to say, Sheryl, I'm not saying it was there innestly.

451
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: I want to be real clear. You've got a person

452
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: that left more than one biological sample. He left feminal

453
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,479
Speaker 1: fluid owned the bedspread, and he left blood in the

454
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: sink in the kitchen, and law enforcement accepted his you know,

455
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: the explanation of how that happened. What was his explanation,

456
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: Doctor Maggie, Well, his explanation is that he was there

457
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: with one of Britty's best friends. And I knew that

458
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: Britty let some of her younger friends sleep over there.

459
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: But and he Eddie Majors, who is the detective, and

460
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 1: never gave me a full explanation. He said he has

461
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: a good albit. He never told me the alibi. He said, oh,

462
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, probably I said, blood and seamen. He said, well,

463
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: you know, somebody could have bloody nose or cut themselves

464
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: with a knife. And I said, well, but they would

465
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: remember it. I mean, I don't necessarily think he's the killer.

466
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: But I never was told any of the alibis. I

467
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: never I was told possibly there were some issues with

468
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: the investigation when they interrogated him. I don't know what

469
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: you're saying. Issues with the investigation when they interrogated him,

470
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: Speak English to me, Please, what are you trying to say?

471
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: Hold on, Andy, COPSA do you know what she's trying

472
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: to say? Yes, somebody could say better than me. Well,

473
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: I mean I think that the problem is is that

474
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: there something is, something doesn't smell right, and so that's

475
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: when my ears go up. I think that there's a

476
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: lot that told the police department has done right. Okay, guys,

477
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: b Frank Cheryl, what happened? He said that he and

478
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: a girlfriend were using Britney's bedroom for a little trip,

479
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: and then he said, yeah, I probably got hurt sometime,

480
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: probably cut my finger, and that's why my blood's in

481
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: the kitchen. So that's how he explained away. How's the

482
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: woman corroborated his story? The friend, the roommate. Yeah, yeah, guys.

483
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: Despite the setback in the phenotyping, Doctor Maggie Zeman, Britney's mother,

484
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: has moved forward. Take a listen to our cut twenty

485
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: our friends at k j RH. But this setback hasn't

486
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: deterred Zeman. She's put forty three thousand miles on her SUV,

487
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: driving from coast to coast, trying to drum up leaves

488
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: and what she calls caravan to catch a killer. I'll

489
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: keep putting them on. Yeah, I feel like I can't

490
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 1: stop this case. You know, it was horrific you know,

491
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: and it really weighs heavy in my heart, and you know,

492
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: I'm at home with me all the time and think

493
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: about the case and what I can do with Detective

494
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: Jeff Felton's just as determined to find Brittany's killer. He

495
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: says even the smallest hip from someone close to the

496
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: case could be the key to solving it. Would appreciate

497
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: calls from anybody that knew Brittany, Calls from anybody that

498
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: may have been around the complex that they thought were suspicious.

499
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: You know, anybody that we could check out, because you know,

500
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: at this point it could be anybody. Guys, we are

501
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: desperate to help find Brittany's killer. There is no statute

502
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: of limitations on martyr. This is another that has shrink

503
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: wrapped her car with information and driven across the country.

504
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: She drove here to our studio. She's driven across the

505
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: country trying to get help. Won't you help us? Please?

506
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: The tip line nine eight seven nine eight nine four

507
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: seven seven repeat nine one eight seven nine eight nine

508
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: four seven seven. There's also an email Sarah Poet th

509
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: e r a poet theah Poet at email dot com. Guys,

510
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: is their new breath breathe into an old investigation. Take

511
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut twenty six. The date on

512
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: the card is September twenty ninth, which is postmarked after

513
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: her death. Could be that pretty scented, meaning her timeline

514
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: is wrong on her death because the police have said

515
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: consistently for eighteen years that she died sometime between September

516
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: twenty seventh that Monday night, and I had talked to

517
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: her about nine, so they assume it's after nine and

518
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: eight am the next morning, the twenty eighth, Maggie is

519
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: asking anyone who may have mailed the card to come

520
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: forward because that could possibly change the timeline of her death.

521
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: Doctor magiz Engman, tell me about when you learned of

522
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: this card being postmarked. My ex husman, who hadn't talked

523
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: to in years, called me in said you need to

524
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: look at a picture I'm going to send you, and

525
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 1: then I will send you this. And he sent me

526
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: a text picture of an envelope with and this was

527
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: just a month and a half ago, with a mechanized

528
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: stap meaning a stamp printed by either a kios or

529
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: a post office that had the date of September twenty ninth.

530
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: And he told me that he received this about a

531
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: week and a half after the funeral in Florida, and

532
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: it was a card that every year Britty would send

533
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: to him to send to her grandfather because she couldn't

534
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: remember his address, and he was so devastated. He said

535
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: that he put it away in a box for eighteen

536
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: years and suddenly decided that he should be starting it.

537
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: Matthew team and Gino high profile lawyer joining us. One

538
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: of the first things you do and every investigation or

539
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: to take a case to a jury is established as

540
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: best as you can, down to the minute, if possible,

541
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: your timeline. This change and the possible date of the

542
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: murderer could change everything. Mangino. Yeah, there's no question, you

543
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: know this, this twist, this new piece of evidence could

544
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: turn the whole investigation on its head. Um. You know,

545
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: a time frame frame that they were looking at in

546
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: terms of their investigation may not be accurate. So now

547
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: we may have another day or more where Brittany was alive,

548
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: and who did she have contact with, and where did

549
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: she go and what did she do? So this really, uh,

550
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: you know, you know, invigorate some new energy or should

551
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: into this investigation to follow up on potentially take a

552
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: listen to Sharon Phillips j RH. Because it's now considered

553
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: evidence in the case. TU News is not showing the

554
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: actual card. But this is a similar stamp. This was mailed.

555
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: It came out of a machine on the twenty ninth.

556
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: Somebody had to mail it. Maggie says. She hopes this

557
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: new piece of evidence will trigger someone's memory and help

558
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: her solve her daughter's murder. We reached out to the

559
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: Tussa Police Department's Cold case unit, but at this time

560
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 1: detectives are not commenting on this case. As a mother,

561
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: even at eighteen years, I am going to do whatever

562
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: I can to solve this case. Andy cops. It's not

563
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: an abolutely you drop into the mail. This is actually

564
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: done by a machine like at the post office. Ye,

565
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: that stamps it with that day, which changes everything. This

566
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that oh the postman forgot, didn't missed it somehow,

567
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: or didn't pick of the mail that day, or didn't

568
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: go into till midnight. It was stamped the next day,

569
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. It didn't get stuck in the back

570
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: of a mailbox any of those things. So you know

571
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: it and I think too. After Maggie did that some

572
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: new witnesses came forward that said, you know, I kind

573
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: of remember seeing Brittany the day after they said she

574
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: had actually died. And that's a result of this new

575
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: evidence coming forward. So not the twenty seventh, but the

576
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: twenty ninth, at least to twenty ninth. Correct, Yeah, so

577
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: it's the date of the twenty ninth, so it had

578
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: to be purchased on the twenty ninth, So that expands

579
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: the window right right, Okay, CHERRYL. McCollum. This is a

580
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: big break. This is huge. It absolutely changes the investigated

581
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: timeline period because only one of three things occurred. The

582
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: killer mailed it, which is unlikely that would show his movements. Two,

583
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: a friend of hers mailed it for her, which would

584
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: change the timeline as far as witnesses and when she

585
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: was last seeing possibly and it would show their movement.

586
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: No one has come forward so far, or she mailed

587
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: it number back. I mean a friend would have remembered.

588
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I took this to the mail for her.

589
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: Last to doctor Maggie Ziemann, this is Britney's mom. What

590
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: is your message today? Two things, One, you know I'm

591
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: still because I didn't know all her friends and since

592
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: I put the story up, friends have come forward, So

593
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm saying if anybody knows anything about mailing something, please

594
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: come forward. The other thing is, really I'm a good

595
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 1: example of you have to keep having a voice, because

596
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: I'm really having to push tells a police on this

597
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: envelope evidence. And if you don't have a voice, some

598
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: of these cases just end up even going further into

599
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: the cold. Charence Art with me, renowned psychologist out of Manhattan. Karen,

600
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how much time has passed. There is

601
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: nothing greater than a mother's love and the pain of

602
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: losing your child that must never ever go away. As

603
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: I said in the beginning, Maggie, Unfortunately, she will never

604
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: get over her daughter's death. It was violent and sense

605
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: with an out of sink. She died wrong, that she's

606
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: supposed to die after her mother, and the pain will

607
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: stay with her. But doing what she's doing it gives

608
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: her a sense of purpose. Well, Karen, I feel like

609
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: she's never been able to move forward in life because

610
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: she hasn't had this case resolved. So instead of having

611
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: a chance to grieve, she's still on a quest for

612
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: justice that's taken her all the way across the country

613
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: many times over. She hasn't ever been able to grieve

614
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: in eighteen years. But they didn't agree. Nancy, she's grieving

615
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: whilst she's go This is her way of helping and

616
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: it's really a great displacement because she's got purpose now. Guys,

617
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: if you have any information, please help us. Nine one

618
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: eight seven nine eight nine four seven seven. We want

619
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: justice for Britain. Goodbye friend.