WEBVTT - Creature Classic: Could There Be A Fungal Zombie Apocalypse? 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.920 Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:15.480 of Mini Parasites Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.400 and today on the show The Last of Us more 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.439 like the Best Fungus, We're talking about O Field Cordyceps 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.880 and other fungi as we explore the possibilities of a 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.040 fungal infection taking control of the brain. Could there be 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.519 a fungal zombie apocalypse such as is depicted in the 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.840 Last of Us? Is ofield cord Aceps real and how 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.320 does it function in nature? How much do humans need 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.879 to fear the fungus? Discover this and more as we 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:48.040 answer the age old question can ants contemplate the horrors 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.040 of their existence? Joining me to help answer these questions 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:57.400 is Infectious Diseases doctor and self described budding mycologist, Professor 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.320 David Bulwer. Welcome. 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.080 Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you for the invite. 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.160 I really like how you call yourself a budding mycologist. 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.240 Don't think I missed that little fungus pun. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:10.960 Oh, it's it is. I'm still budding. I think there's 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:12.760 a lot to learn. I think that's that's really what 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.520 the pun is about there's a lot to learn about fungus, 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:17.119 and so I'm still learning along the way. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.880 I mean absolutely, I am also learning about fungus. I'm 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.720 by no means a fungal expert. I do know specifically 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.959 about Ofio cordyceps because of how famous it is in 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:32.000 terms of its effects on ants. But fungus is it 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.480 is such a I mean, first of all, it's an 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:40.240 incredibly diverse group of organisms. So a you have just 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.760 by knowing one type of fungus. It's not like you 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:47.680 know the entire fungal uh you know group. It's They're 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.320 very diverse, and they're all they all function in very 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.280 weird in different ways. I don't know how anyone can 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.840 ever have a total mastery over fungus. 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.640 Yeah, I certainly a talent. Unfortunately, the majority of you know, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.720 fungus doesn't cause disease in humans. There's you know, hundreds 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:07.040 and millions of species of fungi which are distinct from 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.800 plants and distinct from animals in their own kingdom, but 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.959 only handful of them actually cause pathologic disease in humans. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.959 Right, Yeah, I think that is really important to note. 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.600 It's not as if they are all out to get us. 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.720 It's kind of like when people think of bats as 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.760 being all these blood sucking, bloodthirsty little creatures, and it's 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:34.880 like the majority most bat species are either nectivorous, frugivorous, 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.840 or insectivorous. There's only one or two species that actually 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:44.119 drink blood, and so they get this like creepy bad rap, 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.040 But most of them are not what people think. And 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:52.120 it's the same thing with fungus. They most fungus is good, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.560 I mean or neutral. It's not something we have to 0:02:55.560 --> 0:03:00.160 worry about. So in the very popular TV so it 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.480 actually came from a video game called The Last of Us. 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:09.240 It depicts a pandemic zombie apocalypse. The fungus in the show, 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:14.800 a species of ophiocort Aceps contaminated food at a cereal 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.560 factory I think in Jakarta and then spread globally when 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.040 people ate the contaminated food. This is all fictional, don't panic. 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.640 People started showing signs of aggression, biting or killing others. 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.960 There's a mycologist in a show that determined it was 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.880 ofio coort Aceps, which typically infects arthropods. So arthropods are 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:41.720 invertebrates like insects, and spiders, and then it takes control 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.880 of their behavior of their bodies. But somehow, in this 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.200 fictional world, the o Fio cord Aceps jumps to humans, 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.360 infects humans, takes over their brains, and drives people to 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:57.320 violently kill or bite other people, thus infecting them, you know, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.840 the classic zombie trope and the infect kind of a 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.440 twist on that those that the infected humans slowly become 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.760 subsumed by this fungus, becoming coded and fun It's kind 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:11.760 of funny because when I look at the visuals of 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.960 the show, kind of looks like not just one species 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.680 of fungus, it looks like all sorts of different species covering. 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.080 I mean, for the visual impact, I think it is cool, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.880 if not a little bit unrealistic. But yeah, it's just 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.440 that their whole bodies get covered in this fungus and 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:31.760 then they spread it through biting people or like I guess, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:36.040 kind of mouth to mouth fillament transmission, which is an 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.359 interesting twist on it. Have you have you seen the 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:40.760 show at all? Doctors? 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:42.600 Yeah, and really I have not seen the show. When 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.400 it came out, I was I was out of the country, 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.920 and I have not gone back to track of town 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.680 and lash it. So, but I've heard of a lot 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.000 about it, so it seems very entertaining. You know, maybe 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.960 not factually accurate, but you know that's it's entertainment value. 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.760 Yeah exactly. I mean I could still enjoy it, even 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.599 though throughout the first episode I kept leaning over to 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.680 my husband and commenting like, no, that doesn't make sense. Now, 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.880 that doesn't make sense, but you know it's I still 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.480 really like that they incorporate some actual, like some reference 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.120 to an actual fungus. That's that's neat. I think it 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.560 makes people curious about that kind of thing and then 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.920 want to find out more about it, which is what 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.760 we are going to try to do. So Ofio Cortaceps 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.400 is a real genus of fungus and a fascinating one 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.000 that we've talked about on the show before, but it 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:37.440 is not quite as the HBO show depicts it. So 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:42.200 the most famous species of Opiod Cordyceps is Ofio Cortaceps unilateralists. 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.360 It is also called the zombie ant fungus, and it 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:50.360 is indeed exceedingly spooky. It is found in tropical forests 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.760 all over the world and infects ants of a specific 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:59.360 species Campanodas leonardi. While they can infect other species of ants, 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:04.520 the fungus are most optimized for this one. So, while 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.880 foraging on the forest floor, an ant will pick up 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.360 spores like little pieces of lint on its body, and 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.360 the spore uses enzymes to break down the ants exoskeleton 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.800 and it works its way into the ant's body, which 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.159 is a kind of exfoliation that you definitely don't want 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.919 in this situation. These spores will develop inside the ant's 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.600 body into fungal growths and infect the ants soft tissues, 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:35.920 but not necessarily its brain. That's something of a misconception. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.680 While it does seem to alter the ant's central nervous system, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.280 it doesn't require the fungus to actually be growing inside 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.400 of its brain. It's infiltrating all of the ants soft tissues. Also, 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.840 it can grow like in its head, but it's not 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.520 necessarily a physical presence in the brain that is causing 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.160 the ants behavior to be modified. It as these compounds 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:04.160 that the fungus is releasing. So some of the behavioral 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.880 modifications that will happen is that the ants will convulse 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.240 and fall from the tree where usually their nest is, 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.920 onto the forest floor. Then the ants will climb up 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:19.720 a plant stem. They will grip onto the underside of 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.280 the leaf. Usually there's like a vein on the underside 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.920 of the leaf that they clamp down on with its mandibles, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:30.520 specifically on the north side of the plant, which is interesting. 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:35.320 There's some speculation that it optimizes where it grips for 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.280 moisture levels and temperature being ideal for the fungus. And 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.080 it will stay there until the fungus overcomes the ant 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.640 and kind of grows into this. You know, it looks 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:51.120 very creepy, this sort of ant covered in fungus gripped 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:56.360 onto this leaf. The ofio Cordyceps universalis will grow its 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:01.240 hyphe into the ant. And Hyphae are these branching, vein 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.920 like structures of a fungus. They're also known as filaments, 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:09.160 which allows the fungus to expand and transport nutrients. In 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:14.960 a group of hyphae is called a micellium. The ant 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.520 becomes overwhelmed by the micellium, which also roots the ant 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.440 to the leaf, and then finally, after around four to 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.080 ten days, a fruiting body or bodies will grow from 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.560 the ant, which looks like a little stem with a 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:33.320 bulb on top and then that will distribute the spores. So, uh, 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.839 while this fungus is called the zombie ant fungus. Once 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.280 the ant is dead, it's just dead. It's not gonna 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:48.080 reanimate this this dead ant. So do we so, doctor will, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.440 where do we see any kind of fungus like this 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.480 in humans that takes like takes over our brains and 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.959 our bodies and controls us in this way? 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.760 Oh exactly. I mean there are certain types of fungus 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.880 that can cause infections of the brain, and they can 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.679 alter people's behavior certainly, but usually they just make people 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:09.400 really really sick. 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:15.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And one thing that's interesting 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:20.760 to me is that this is definitely a scary thing 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.440 that is real, right, this is a real fungus. But 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.680 the only animals it seems like that it seems to 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:34.479 have this kind of specific control over are arthropods insects, 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.920 And so is it when we see something that impacts 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.120 a an arthropod or an insect or a spider, Like, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:48.360 how typical is it for diseases or something that is 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.439 like zoonotic to originate from an insect versus something that 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.880 is closer to us on the evolutionary tree. 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.120 Yeah, so a lot of things, a lot of fun 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.880 Fungus can affect cold blooded animals and cold blooded you know, insects, 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:08.280 et cetera. And one of the theories behind why are 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:13.120 mammals warm blooded is that that the temperature difference protects 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.839 us against bungle diseases. And so that's sort of one 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.160 of the hypotheses and theories of why sort of mammals 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.800 sort of escaped after sort of you know, sort of 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.600 the great sort of the dinosaurs and sort of you know, 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.080 the meteorites sort of striking the earth and sort of 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.880 causing sort of dust clouds and all the plants dying 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.000 off with that. Then fungus is sort of a big 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.200 part of decaying plant matter, and so breaking down plants 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.760 and sort of that process of decay is what fungi 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.400 normally do in the environment. And so one of the 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:49.120 theories of why then mammals sort of exploded and sort 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.440 of took off after that is the temperature difference. Being 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.840 warm blooded protects us from fungus because most fungus does 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.640 not grow very well at ninety eight degrees temperature. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.120 That's really interesting, I mean, it kind of makes sense too. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.360 Then that when we see this specific ant controlling behavior 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.760 or something like OFEO. Cortyceps, it actually directs the ant 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.160 to a very specific part of the forest floor. It's 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.959 not content to just infect the ant wherever it is 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.960 and the ant, you know, sprouts the fruiting body. It 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.400 has evolved to kind of modulate the ant's behavior in 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.400 such a way that the ant goes to like the 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.559 underside of a leaf somewhere, whether there's the right amount 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.520 of humidity, the right temperature, because really it wants kind 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.320 of a ideal environment for itself. So to somehow be 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.920 able to jump to a human and infect a human, 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.560 it would require that it overcome this need for this 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.880 very specific temperature range. And it seems that seems quite 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:50.640 difficult to make such a leap. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.320 It to us, and so most most fungus doesn't do that. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.800 But you know, one of the concerns with global warming 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.559 is that the ambient temperature and the environment humans and 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.560 many places of the globe is coming closer and closer together. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.560 Such things that can live in the environment quite happily, 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.400 there may be a selection pressure where they can jump 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.120 to humans. And so at present, I'm in Minnesota, there's 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.880 a big difference between ancient temperature outside and the environment 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.600 and what it is in the body. But in other 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.840 places around the world you've got high temperatures and so 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:25.640 that that bearer may be less. 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.160 Yeah, that's interesting. I mean we have seen that in 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:35.360 animals where the change in climate will change the situation 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.080 that that animal has with something like a bacteria from 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:44.640 being basically they can sort of coexist to it overwhelming 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.800 the animal, like the syga antelope, which was able to 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.040 co exist with a bacteria that would live it. They're 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.360 these so sayga antelope or these really interesting animals. They 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.199 have these huge proboscises. It looks like the beginnings of 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.360 an elephant trun but then it just kind of stops. 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.720 And you know these these proboscises are they breathe in 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.000 a lot of air and they kind of like cool 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.560 down the air or warm up the air, depending on 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.040 like their needs. It's like a portable air conditioners slash 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:20.520 heater unit. And so in their noses like they would 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:25.440 there's often like bacteria bacteria well like moist warm areas, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.560 but they were their immune systems are able to fight 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.600 off the bacteria in their nose when it's at a 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.520 certain level, but when it's above a certain level, they 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.480 can no longer fight it off. And the temperature change. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.800 The temperature just being a little bit warmer made conditions 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.000 a little bit better for this bacteria. And so you 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.720 had whole herds of siga antelope just dropping dead mysteriously 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.040 like it was very, very creepy because you'd have this 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.000 entire herd of antelope just dead on the ground and 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.800 finding out that it's because well, the temperature is a 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.719 little higher, so the bacteria was able to thrive a 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.400 little that are it is creepy and it is a 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:07.319 little bit spooky. This idea that fungus uh, you know, 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.560 if it is driven a little bit towards being able 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.440 to exist in a warmer environment, then it would potentially 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.280 be more of a risk to humans. 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:18.760 I very mentioned so that that's a little bit of 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.640 a concern. And and so some of the you know, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:27.400 environmental sort of kind of explosion with back A fungus 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.800 called a Canada Orius in particular is one of those 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:35.400 that's more thermotolerant. And so one of the theories of 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.680 why that's been selected out and is due to sort 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.600 of the increased temperatures, as well as sort of fundicide 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.720 use a sort of in the environment and agriculture of 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.680 anti fungal agents us used to protect crops. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.920 That's yeah, I mean, that's kind of reminds me of 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.359 the we have a lot of concerns about the overuse 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:02.320 of antibacterials and antibiotics. But yeah, the overuse of anti fungals, 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.600 I guess I that that concern I don't hear about 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.160 too much. But how big of a concern do you 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:09.680 think that is? 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.720 Well, there's a lot of different So for plants, if 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:15.840 you think about your tomato plant, like, you can get 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:17.640 sort of various sort of diseases and a lot of 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.520 those are mold and funguses basically that they can affect 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.840 the plants. And so in agriculture, you know, molds are 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.200 are big deal. Molds are a type of fungus, and 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.600 so there are a number of different you know, anti 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.960 fungal properties. You know, compounds are used for agriculture, and 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.200 so a lot of those are not used in humans, 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:36.760 but but some of them actually are. They're in the 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.440 same class that we use in humans. And so that 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.920 that alarms me a little bit because we're starting to 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.520 see more and more anti fungal resistance, and so with that, 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.280 I would say, don't use compounds that are using humans 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.280 in agriculture. But that's all. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:57.560 Right, I'll stop doing that. Well, uh so we're going 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.760 to take a quick break, but when we get we 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.920 will be talking about some of the claims that the 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.920 HBO show makes about fungus and using that kind of 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.280 as a jumping off point to talk more about the 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:17.240 impacts that fungi can have on human health. So we 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.960 are back, and I am very lucky to be joined 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:26.800 by Professor David Bulware, who is an infectious diseases doctor 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.600 with an acute awareness of fungus and the risks of fungus. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.960 And I think that whenever people watch a show like 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.160 The Last of Us, I mean, people know it's fiction, 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:44.040 people know it's science fiction, but it is it brings 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.400 up these ideas of like of a fungal pandemic, and 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.720 so sometimes the show will say things like in the 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.360 beginning of the show, it talked about one of the 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.320 dangers of this this sort of outbreak of this fungus 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:03.160 is that they have no treatments for fungal infections. Now, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.960 before the break, we just talked about the potential over 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.239 use of anti fungals. So already that's not quite accurate, right, Like, 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.800 it's not that we don't have anything that treats fungus. 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.280 You can pick it up off the shelf of pharmacy. 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.840 You can get you know, cream for athletes foot, which 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.240 is a type of anti fungal. Is that correct? 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.160 Correct? There are a number of anti fungal proper compounds 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.640 and treatments, summer creams, ointment that are topical, and there's 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.280 a handful of them that they're used you know, orally 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:41.920 or intravenously, but there's not that many real different therapies 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.159 we have. And so there's maybe I don't know a 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.400 dozen or so in total of different anti fungal compounds 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.240 that we use in humans, and it's pretty it's a 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:51.520 pretty limited scope. 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.240 So maybe the nuance that is sort of lost in 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.359 the you know, zombie Apocalypse show is that yes, we 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.439 do have treatments for a fungus, but maybe they're not 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.600 as specified or as numerous as the treatments we say 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.560 have for viral infections or bacterial infections. 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.160 But we don't have that many treatments for viral infections. 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:15.800 But we do have a lot of antabatics, and so 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.840 with you know, anti fungal you know medicines. There's sort 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.800 of three or four classes of anti fungal medicines. Some 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.680 of them are pretty toxic, you know, some of them 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.480 are less toxic. But you know, we do see resistance 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.200 and we see some you know, some fungi that could 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.480 be resistant to all three classes of anti fungals. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.520 I see, and maybe we're not making that situation better 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.200 if we over use anti fungals in agriculture. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.439 Well it's probably not super helpful, but I mean there 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.520 are different anti fungal things that are not used in 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.200 humans that can certainly be used in agriculture. So I 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:57.640 think the same in you know, in livestock, of using 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.359 the same antibiotics that we use in livestock. You know, 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.000 it's awesome, a major source of resistance in the US. 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.040 It's something about eighty percent of all antibatics or used 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:07.359 in livestock about twenty percent. 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.920 This kind of ties into this idea of the evolution 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.680 of fungus. So something like in the show O Field 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:21.840 cord Aceps starts out in arthropods. I don't know of 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:28.520 any mammals really that O Field cord aceps effects, and 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.320 so it seems to make this jump from arthropods to humans. 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.680 Do you think that it's realistic from an evolutionary point 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.719 of view for a fungus to jump from an arthropod 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:43.560 like an ant to a human without kind of any 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.600 evolutionary steps in between. 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.719 Without a million years in between. Unlikely? But there are certainly, 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.520 you know, fungi that do exist that can affect humans. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.280 And so I would be more concerned about sort of 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.199 the current some of the current agents that we have, 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:03.160 certain agents, but the pathogens we have more so than 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:08.200 some novel fungus coming out, although Canada orus is somewhat 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.200 of a novel fungus that has emerged and caused major 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:15.320 problems and hospitals and healthcare centers and in some cases 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:16.000 with outbreaks. 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.439 I see, So, how recent is this one? And you 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:19.840 call it Candida. 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.000 Orus kind of orus like your ear orus? 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:22.400 Okay? 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.399 Uh, it's it's over the kind of the last decade 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.919 where it's sort of emerged and and it's sort of 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.080 niche is that it's it's anti fungal resistant, uh, and so, 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.640 and it tends to there's been sort of sporadic cases 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:40.240 that have happened and CDCs has tracked numerous outbreaks and 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.240 sort of behaves kind of weird, you know, unusual for 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:43.880 for a fun guy. 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:46.080 In what ways is it unusual? 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.480 It's more aggressive, and it's very hardy, where it's resistant 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.400 not only to anti fungals but also to standard environmental 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.359 cleaning and and things like that. Some of the cleaning 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.120 agents that it's it's pretty robust against. And so it's 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.120 something that has caused certainly problems. And this has sort 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.040 of spread around the world from where when it was 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.560 initially identified a little over a decade ago. 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.720 And what kinds of problems does it cause for humans, 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.960 like in terms of illness, Well. 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.280 Well, normally particularly you know fun bunch I are really 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.640 good at picking up basic people who have weakened immune systems, 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.879 so people who are you compromised, and that can be 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.200 due to a variety of reasons. It can be due 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:33.320 to you know, cancer, chemotherapy, bone a mari of transplantation 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.800 and things like that. Can also be to do HIV. 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.159 But there's also a lot of new model antibodies that 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.399 are used for in rheumatology and other treatments, and so 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:45.919 those suppressed immune system in certain ways, and so that 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.720 can predispose people to fungal infections. And so when you 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:50.800 hear the TV commercials about if you've been exposed to 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.680 perculosis or places where there may be fungal infections they're 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:58.119 talking about, you know, those issues where it predisposes you 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.440 to risk of infection. But you know, for the most part, 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.919 most fungi kind of affect immuno compromise people for the 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.240 for the most part. There are some exceptions, however, and 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.160 a couple of those exceptions are things what we term 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:16.480 is endemic micoses. They're sort of endemic to certain regions 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.520 around the world, and they live in sort of the 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.159 environment that they can form spores and you can inhale 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.560 those in and you can get sick even if you're 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:28.399 not immunocompromised. And so one of the more common ones 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:33.720 is something called valley fever is coxidiorities micosis, and so 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.879 that's in sort of the central Valley of California and 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.720 in Arizona and kind of southwestern regions, but also up 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.760 as far north as Yakama in Washington, and so that's 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.200 sort of inhaled spores that can cause a pneumonia and 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.639 can cause serious disease and a subset of people similarly 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.119 in the Midwest, or something called histoplasmosis, which also is 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.600 inhaled spore that you can be exposed to and can 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.840 cause illness, serious illness and you know, kind of regular people. 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:08.080 That's interesting because I so there is this computer game 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:13.600 that predated this show, and it actually did feature inhaling 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.200 spores as being in a root of infection, whereas now 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:20.920 it seems like the show emphasizes like being bitten as 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:25.000 a root of infection for fungus. Now, can you be like, 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.359 can you get like a fungal infection through like an 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.000 animal bite or scratch or something. Is that like a 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.639 typical rooter? Is that more typically like a root for 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:34.920 bacterial infection? 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:38.520 Yeah, with with bite as usially it's a bacterial infection. 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.120 You have a lot of bacteria that live in your mouth, 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:43.720 and so that that's usually bacterial infection. But you can't 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.639 have sort of you know, if you had a stick 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:48.760 or something that that pokes your pokes to your skin, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.840 sort of a local localized inoculation where you kind of 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:56.120 have have stuck something into your skin, splinters or wood 0:23:56.200 --> 0:24:00.160