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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: of Mini Parasites Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

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Speaker 1: and today on the show The Last of Us more

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Speaker 1: like the Best Fungus, We're talking about O Field Cordyceps

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Speaker 1: and other fungi as we explore the possibilities of a

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Speaker 1: fungal infection taking control of the brain. Could there be

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Speaker 1: a fungal zombie apocalypse such as is depicted in the

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Speaker 1: Last of Us? Is ofield cord Aceps real and how

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Speaker 1: does it function in nature? How much do humans need

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Speaker 1: to fear the fungus? Discover this and more as we

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Speaker 1: answer the age old question can ants contemplate the horrors

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Speaker 1: of their existence? Joining me to help answer these questions

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Speaker 1: is Infectious Diseases doctor and self described budding mycologist, Professor

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Speaker 1: David Bulwer. Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you for the invite.

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Speaker 1: I really like how you call yourself a budding mycologist.

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Speaker 1: Don't think I missed that little fungus pun.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's it is. I'm still budding. I think there's

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Speaker 2: a lot to learn. I think that's that's really what

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Speaker 2: the pun is about there's a lot to learn about fungus,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm still learning along the way.

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Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, I am also learning about fungus. I'm

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Speaker 1: by no means a fungal expert. I do know specifically

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Speaker 1: about Ofio cordyceps because of how famous it is in

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Speaker 1: terms of its effects on ants. But fungus is it

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Speaker 1: is such a I mean, first of all, it's an

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Speaker 1: incredibly diverse group of organisms. So a you have just

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Speaker 1: by knowing one type of fungus. It's not like you

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Speaker 1: know the entire fungal uh you know group. It's They're

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Speaker 1: very diverse, and they're all they all function in very

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Speaker 1: weird in different ways. I don't know how anyone can

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Speaker 1: ever have a total mastery over fungus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly a talent. Unfortunately, the majority of you know,

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Speaker 2: fungus doesn't cause disease in humans. There's you know, hundreds

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Speaker 2: and millions of species of fungi which are distinct from

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Speaker 2: plants and distinct from animals in their own kingdom, but

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Speaker 2: only handful of them actually cause pathologic disease in humans.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think that is really important to note.

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Speaker 1: It's not as if they are all out to get us.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like when people think of bats as

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Speaker 1: being all these blood sucking, bloodthirsty little creatures, and it's

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Speaker 1: like the majority most bat species are either nectivorous, frugivorous,

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Speaker 1: or insectivorous. There's only one or two species that actually

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Speaker 1: drink blood, and so they get this like creepy bad rap,

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Speaker 1: But most of them are not what people think. And

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Speaker 1: it's the same thing with fungus. They most fungus is good,

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Speaker 1: I mean or neutral. It's not something we have to

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Speaker 1: worry about. So in the very popular TV so it

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Speaker 1: actually came from a video game called The Last of Us.

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Speaker 1: It depicts a pandemic zombie apocalypse. The fungus in the show,

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Speaker 1: a species of ophiocort Aceps contaminated food at a cereal

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Speaker 1: factory I think in Jakarta and then spread globally when

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Speaker 1: people ate the contaminated food. This is all fictional, don't panic.

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Speaker 1: People started showing signs of aggression, biting or killing others.

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Speaker 1: There's a mycologist in a show that determined it was

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Speaker 1: ofio coort Aceps, which typically infects arthropods. So arthropods are

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Speaker 1: invertebrates like insects, and spiders, and then it takes control

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Speaker 1: of their behavior of their bodies. But somehow, in this

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Speaker 1: fictional world, the o Fio cord Aceps jumps to humans,

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Speaker 1: infects humans, takes over their brains, and drives people to

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Speaker 1: violently kill or bite other people, thus infecting them, you know,

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Speaker 1: the classic zombie trope and the infect kind of a

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Speaker 1: twist on that those that the infected humans slowly become

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Speaker 1: subsumed by this fungus, becoming coded and fun It's kind

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Speaker 1: of funny because when I look at the visuals of

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Speaker 1: the show, kind of looks like not just one species

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Speaker 1: of fungus, it looks like all sorts of different species covering.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for the visual impact, I think it is cool,

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Speaker 1: if not a little bit unrealistic. But yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: that their whole bodies get covered in this fungus and

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Speaker 1: then they spread it through biting people or like I guess,

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Speaker 1: kind of mouth to mouth fillament transmission, which is an

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Speaker 1: interesting twist on it. Have you have you seen the

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Speaker 1: show at all? Doctors?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and really I have not seen the show. When

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Speaker 2: it came out, I was I was out of the country,

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Speaker 2: and I have not gone back to track of town

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Speaker 2: and lash it. So, but I've heard of a lot

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Speaker 2: about it, so it seems very entertaining. You know, maybe

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Speaker 2: not factually accurate, but you know that's it's entertainment value.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I mean I could still enjoy it, even

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Speaker 1: though throughout the first episode I kept leaning over to

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Speaker 1: my husband and commenting like, no, that doesn't make sense. Now,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense, but you know it's I still

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Speaker 1: really like that they incorporate some actual, like some reference

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Speaker 1: to an actual fungus. That's that's neat. I think it

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Speaker 1: makes people curious about that kind of thing and then

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Speaker 1: want to find out more about it, which is what

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Speaker 1: we are going to try to do. So Ofio Cortaceps

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Speaker 1: is a real genus of fungus and a fascinating one

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Speaker 1: that we've talked about on the show before, but it

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Speaker 1: is not quite as the HBO show depicts it. So

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Speaker 1: the most famous species of Opiod Cordyceps is Ofio Cortaceps unilateralists.

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Speaker 1: It is also called the zombie ant fungus, and it

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Speaker 1: is indeed exceedingly spooky. It is found in tropical forests

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Speaker 1: all over the world and infects ants of a specific

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Speaker 1: species Campanodas leonardi. While they can infect other species of ants,

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Speaker 1: the fungus are most optimized for this one. So, while

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Speaker 1: foraging on the forest floor, an ant will pick up

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Speaker 1: spores like little pieces of lint on its body, and

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Speaker 1: the spore uses enzymes to break down the ants exoskeleton

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Speaker 1: and it works its way into the ant's body, which

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Speaker 1: is a kind of exfoliation that you definitely don't want

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Speaker 1: in this situation. These spores will develop inside the ant's

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Speaker 1: body into fungal growths and infect the ants soft tissues,

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Speaker 1: but not necessarily its brain. That's something of a misconception.

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Speaker 1: While it does seem to alter the ant's central nervous system,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't require the fungus to actually be growing inside

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Speaker 1: of its brain. It's infiltrating all of the ants soft tissues. Also,

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Speaker 1: it can grow like in its head, but it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily a physical presence in the brain that is causing

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Speaker 1: the ants behavior to be modified. It as these compounds

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Speaker 1: that the fungus is releasing. So some of the behavioral

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Speaker 1: modifications that will happen is that the ants will convulse

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Speaker 1: and fall from the tree where usually their nest is,

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Speaker 1: onto the forest floor. Then the ants will climb up

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Speaker 1: a plant stem. They will grip onto the underside of

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Speaker 1: the leaf. Usually there's like a vein on the underside

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Speaker 1: of the leaf that they clamp down on with its mandibles,

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Speaker 1: specifically on the north side of the plant, which is interesting.

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Speaker 1: There's some speculation that it optimizes where it grips for

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Speaker 1: moisture levels and temperature being ideal for the fungus. And

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Speaker 1: it will stay there until the fungus overcomes the ant

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Speaker 1: and kind of grows into this. You know, it looks

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Speaker 1: very creepy, this sort of ant covered in fungus gripped

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Speaker 1: onto this leaf. The ofio Cordyceps universalis will grow its

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Speaker 1: hyphe into the ant. And Hyphae are these branching, vein

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Speaker 1: like structures of a fungus. They're also known as filaments,

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Speaker 1: which allows the fungus to expand and transport nutrients. In

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Speaker 1: a group of hyphae is called a micellium. The ant

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Speaker 1: becomes overwhelmed by the micellium, which also roots the ant

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Speaker 1: to the leaf, and then finally, after around four to

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Speaker 1: ten days, a fruiting body or bodies will grow from

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Speaker 1: the ant, which looks like a little stem with a

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Speaker 1: bulb on top and then that will distribute the spores. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: while this fungus is called the zombie ant fungus. Once

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Speaker 1: the ant is dead, it's just dead. It's not gonna

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Speaker 1: reanimate this this dead ant. So do we so, doctor will,

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Speaker 1: where do we see any kind of fungus like this

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Speaker 1: in humans that takes like takes over our brains and

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Speaker 1: our bodies and controls us in this way?

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Speaker 2: Oh exactly. I mean there are certain types of fungus

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Speaker 2: that can cause infections of the brain, and they can

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Speaker 2: alter people's behavior certainly, but usually they just make people

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Speaker 2: really really sick.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And one thing that's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me is that this is definitely a scary thing

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Speaker 1: that is real, right, this is a real fungus. But

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Speaker 1: the only animals it seems like that it seems to

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Speaker 1: have this kind of specific control over are arthropods insects,

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Speaker 1: And so is it when we see something that impacts

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Speaker 1: a an arthropod or an insect or a spider, Like,

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Speaker 1: how typical is it for diseases or something that is

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Speaker 1: like zoonotic to originate from an insect versus something that

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Speaker 1: is closer to us on the evolutionary tree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a lot of things, a lot of fun

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Speaker 2: Fungus can affect cold blooded animals and cold blooded you know, insects,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And one of the theories behind why are

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Speaker 2: mammals warm blooded is that that the temperature difference protects

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Speaker 2: us against bungle diseases. And so that's sort of one

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Speaker 2: of the hypotheses and theories of why sort of mammals

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Speaker 2: sort of escaped after sort of you know, sort of

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Speaker 2: the great sort of the dinosaurs and sort of you know,

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Speaker 2: the meteorites sort of striking the earth and sort of

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Speaker 2: causing sort of dust clouds and all the plants dying

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Speaker 2: off with that. Then fungus is sort of a big

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Speaker 2: part of decaying plant matter, and so breaking down plants

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Speaker 2: and sort of that process of decay is what fungi

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Speaker 2: normally do in the environment. And so one of the

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Speaker 2: theories of why then mammals sort of exploded and sort

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Speaker 2: of took off after that is the temperature difference. Being

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Speaker 2: warm blooded protects us from fungus because most fungus does

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Speaker 2: not grow very well at ninety eight degrees temperature.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting, I mean, it kind of makes sense too.

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Speaker 1: Then that when we see this specific ant controlling behavior

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Speaker 1: or something like OFEO. Cortyceps, it actually directs the ant

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Speaker 1: to a very specific part of the forest floor. It's

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Speaker 1: not content to just infect the ant wherever it is

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Speaker 1: and the ant, you know, sprouts the fruiting body. It

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Speaker 1: has evolved to kind of modulate the ant's behavior in

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Speaker 1: such a way that the ant goes to like the

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Speaker 1: underside of a leaf somewhere, whether there's the right amount

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Speaker 1: of humidity, the right temperature, because really it wants kind

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Speaker 1: of a ideal environment for itself. So to somehow be

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Speaker 1: able to jump to a human and infect a human,

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Speaker 1: it would require that it overcome this need for this

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Speaker 1: very specific temperature range. And it seems that seems quite

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Speaker 1: difficult to make such a leap.

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Speaker 2: It to us, and so most most fungus doesn't do that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, one of the concerns with global warming

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Speaker 2: is that the ambient temperature and the environment humans and

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Speaker 2: many places of the globe is coming closer and closer together.

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Speaker 2: Such things that can live in the environment quite happily,

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Speaker 2: there may be a selection pressure where they can jump

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Speaker 2: to humans. And so at present, I'm in Minnesota, there's

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Speaker 2: a big difference between ancient temperature outside and the environment

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Speaker 2: and what it is in the body. But in other

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Speaker 2: places around the world you've got high temperatures and so

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Speaker 2: that that bearer may be less.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean we have seen that in

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Speaker 1: animals where the change in climate will change the situation

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Speaker 1: that that animal has with something like a bacteria from

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Speaker 1: being basically they can sort of coexist to it overwhelming

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Speaker 1: the animal, like the syga antelope, which was able to

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Speaker 1: co exist with a bacteria that would live it. They're

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Speaker 1: these so sayga antelope or these really interesting animals. They

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Speaker 1: have these huge proboscises. It looks like the beginnings of

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Speaker 1: an elephant trun but then it just kind of stops.

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Speaker 1: And you know these these proboscises are they breathe in

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Speaker 1: a lot of air and they kind of like cool

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Speaker 1: down the air or warm up the air, depending on

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Speaker 1: like their needs. It's like a portable air conditioners slash

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Speaker 1: heater unit. And so in their noses like they would

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Speaker 1: there's often like bacteria bacteria well like moist warm areas,

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Speaker 1: but they were their immune systems are able to fight

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Speaker 1: off the bacteria in their nose when it's at a

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Speaker 1: certain level, but when it's above a certain level, they

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Speaker 1: can no longer fight it off. And the temperature change.

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Speaker 1: The temperature just being a little bit warmer made conditions

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Speaker 1: a little bit better for this bacteria. And so you

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Speaker 1: had whole herds of siga antelope just dropping dead mysteriously

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Speaker 1: like it was very, very creepy because you'd have this

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Speaker 1: entire herd of antelope just dead on the ground and

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Speaker 1: finding out that it's because well, the temperature is a

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Speaker 1: little higher, so the bacteria was able to thrive a

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Speaker 1: little that are it is creepy and it is a

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Speaker 1: little bit spooky. This idea that fungus uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: if it is driven a little bit towards being able

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Speaker 1: to exist in a warmer environment, then it would potentially

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Speaker 1: be more of a risk to humans.

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Speaker 2: I very mentioned so that that's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a concern. And and so some of the you know,

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Speaker 2: environmental sort of kind of explosion with back A fungus

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Speaker 2: called a Canada Orius in particular is one of those

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Speaker 2: that's more thermotolerant. And so one of the theories of

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Speaker 2: why that's been selected out and is due to sort

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Speaker 2: of the increased temperatures, as well as sort of fundicide

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Speaker 2: use a sort of in the environment and agriculture of

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Speaker 2: anti fungal agents us used to protect crops.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, I mean, that's kind of reminds me of

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Speaker 1: the we have a lot of concerns about the overuse

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Speaker 1: of antibacterials and antibiotics. But yeah, the overuse of anti fungals,

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Speaker 1: I guess I that that concern I don't hear about

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Speaker 1: too much. But how big of a concern do you

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Speaker 1: think that is?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of different So for plants, if

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Speaker 2: you think about your tomato plant, like, you can get

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Speaker 2: sort of various sort of diseases and a lot of

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Speaker 2: those are mold and funguses basically that they can affect

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Speaker 2: the plants. And so in agriculture, you know, molds are

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Speaker 2: are big deal. Molds are a type of fungus, and

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Speaker 2: so there are a number of different you know, anti

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Speaker 2: fungal properties. You know, compounds are used for agriculture, and

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Speaker 2: so a lot of those are not used in humans,

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Speaker 2: but but some of them actually are. They're in the

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Speaker 2: same class that we use in humans. And so that

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Speaker 2: that alarms me a little bit because we're starting to

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Speaker 2: see more and more anti fungal resistance, and so with that,

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Speaker 2: I would say, don't use compounds that are using humans

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Speaker 2: in agriculture. But that's all.

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Speaker 1: Right, I'll stop doing that. Well, uh so we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but when we get we

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Speaker 1: will be talking about some of the claims that the

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Speaker 1: HBO show makes about fungus and using that kind of

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Speaker 1: as a jumping off point to talk more about the

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Speaker 1: impacts that fungi can have on human health. So we

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Speaker 1: are back, and I am very lucky to be joined

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Speaker 1: by Professor David Bulware, who is an infectious diseases doctor

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Speaker 1: with an acute awareness of fungus and the risks of fungus.

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Speaker 1: And I think that whenever people watch a show like

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Speaker 1: The Last of Us, I mean, people know it's fiction,

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Speaker 1: people know it's science fiction, but it is it brings

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Speaker 1: up these ideas of like of a fungal pandemic, and

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Speaker 1: so sometimes the show will say things like in the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the show, it talked about one of the

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Speaker 1: dangers of this this sort of outbreak of this fungus

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Speaker 1: is that they have no treatments for fungal infections. Now,

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Speaker 1: before the break, we just talked about the potential over

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Speaker 1: use of anti fungals. So already that's not quite accurate, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not that we don't have anything that treats fungus.

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Speaker 1: You can pick it up off the shelf of pharmacy.

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Speaker 1: You can get you know, cream for athletes foot, which

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Speaker 1: is a type of anti fungal. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Correct? There are a number of anti fungal proper compounds

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Speaker 2: and treatments, summer creams, ointment that are topical, and there's

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Speaker 2: a handful of them that they're used you know, orally

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Speaker 2: or intravenously, but there's not that many real different therapies

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Speaker 2: we have. And so there's maybe I don't know a

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Speaker 2: dozen or so in total of different anti fungal compounds

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Speaker 2: that we use in humans, and it's pretty it's a

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Speaker 2: pretty limited scope.

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Speaker 1: So maybe the nuance that is sort of lost in

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Speaker 1: the you know, zombie Apocalypse show is that yes, we

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Speaker 1: do have treatments for a fungus, but maybe they're not

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Speaker 1: as specified or as numerous as the treatments we say

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Speaker 1: have for viral infections or bacterial infections.

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Speaker 2: But we don't have that many treatments for viral infections.

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Speaker 2: But we do have a lot of antabatics, and so

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Speaker 2: with you know, anti fungal you know medicines. There's sort

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Speaker 2: of three or four classes of anti fungal medicines. Some

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Speaker 2: of them are pretty toxic, you know, some of them

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Speaker 2: are less toxic. But you know, we do see resistance

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Speaker 2: and we see some you know, some fungi that could

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Speaker 2: be resistant to all three classes of anti fungals.

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Speaker 1: I see, and maybe we're not making that situation better

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Speaker 1: if we over use anti fungals in agriculture.

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Speaker 2: Well it's probably not super helpful, but I mean there

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Speaker 2: are different anti fungal things that are not used in

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Speaker 2: humans that can certainly be used in agriculture. So I

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Speaker 2: think the same in you know, in livestock, of using

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Speaker 2: the same antibiotics that we use in livestock. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's awesome, a major source of resistance in the US.

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Speaker 2: It's something about eighty percent of all antibatics or used

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Speaker 2: in livestock about twenty percent.

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Speaker 1: This kind of ties into this idea of the evolution

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Speaker 1: of fungus. So something like in the show O Field

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Speaker 1: cord Aceps starts out in arthropods. I don't know of

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Speaker 1: any mammals really that O Field cord aceps effects, and

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Speaker 1: so it seems to make this jump from arthropods to humans.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that it's realistic from an evolutionary point

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Speaker 1: of view for a fungus to jump from an arthropod

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Speaker 1: like an ant to a human without kind of any

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Speaker 1: evolutionary steps in between.

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Speaker 2: Without a million years in between. Unlikely? But there are certainly,

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Speaker 2: you know, fungi that do exist that can affect humans.

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Speaker 2: And so I would be more concerned about sort of

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Speaker 2: the current some of the current agents that we have,

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Speaker 2: certain agents, but the pathogens we have more so than

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Speaker 2: some novel fungus coming out, although Canada orus is somewhat

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Speaker 2: of a novel fungus that has emerged and caused major

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Speaker 2: problems and hospitals and healthcare centers and in some cases

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Speaker 2: with outbreaks.

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Speaker 1: I see, So, how recent is this one? And you

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Speaker 1: call it Candida.

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Speaker 2: Orus kind of orus like your ear orus?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Uh, it's it's over the kind of the last decade

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Speaker 2: where it's sort of emerged and and it's sort of

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Speaker 2: niche is that it's it's anti fungal resistant, uh, and so,

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Speaker 2: and it tends to there's been sort of sporadic cases

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Speaker 2: that have happened and CDCs has tracked numerous outbreaks and

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Speaker 2: sort of behaves kind of weird, you know, unusual for

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Speaker 2: for a fun guy.

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Speaker 1: In what ways is it unusual?

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Speaker 2: It's more aggressive, and it's very hardy, where it's resistant

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Speaker 2: not only to anti fungals but also to standard environmental

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Speaker 2: cleaning and and things like that. Some of the cleaning

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Speaker 2: agents that it's it's pretty robust against. And so it's

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Speaker 2: something that has caused certainly problems. And this has sort

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Speaker 2: of spread around the world from where when it was

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Speaker 2: initially identified a little over a decade ago.

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Speaker 1: And what kinds of problems does it cause for humans,

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Speaker 1: like in terms of illness, Well.

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Speaker 2: Well, normally particularly you know fun bunch I are really

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Speaker 2: good at picking up basic people who have weakened immune systems,

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Speaker 2: so people who are you compromised, and that can be

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Speaker 2: due to a variety of reasons. It can be due

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Speaker 2: to you know, cancer, chemotherapy, bone a mari of transplantation

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Speaker 2: and things like that. Can also be to do HIV.

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Speaker 2: But there's also a lot of new model antibodies that

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Speaker 2: are used for in rheumatology and other treatments, and so

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Speaker 2: those suppressed immune system in certain ways, and so that

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Speaker 2: can predispose people to fungal infections. And so when you

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Speaker 2: hear the TV commercials about if you've been exposed to

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Speaker 2: perculosis or places where there may be fungal infections they're

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Speaker 2: talking about, you know, those issues where it predisposes you

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Speaker 2: to risk of infection. But you know, for the most part,

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Speaker 2: most fungi kind of affect immuno compromise people for the

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Speaker 2: for the most part. There are some exceptions, however, and

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Speaker 2: a couple of those exceptions are things what we term

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Speaker 2: is endemic micoses. They're sort of endemic to certain regions

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Speaker 2: around the world, and they live in sort of the

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Speaker 2: environment that they can form spores and you can inhale

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Speaker 2: those in and you can get sick even if you're

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Speaker 2: not immunocompromised. And so one of the more common ones

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Speaker 2: is something called valley fever is coxidiorities micosis, and so

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Speaker 2: that's in sort of the central Valley of California and

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Speaker 2: in Arizona and kind of southwestern regions, but also up

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Speaker 2: as far north as Yakama in Washington, and so that's

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Speaker 2: sort of inhaled spores that can cause a pneumonia and

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Speaker 2: can cause serious disease and a subset of people similarly

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Speaker 2: in the Midwest, or something called histoplasmosis, which also is

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Speaker 2: inhaled spore that you can be exposed to and can

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Speaker 2: cause illness, serious illness and you know, kind of regular people.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting because I so there is this computer game

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Speaker 1: that predated this show, and it actually did feature inhaling

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Speaker 1: spores as being in a root of infection, whereas now

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Speaker 1: it seems like the show emphasizes like being bitten as

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Speaker 1: a root of infection for fungus. Now, can you be like,

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Speaker 1: can you get like a fungal infection through like an

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Speaker 1: animal bite or scratch or something. Is that like a

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Speaker 1: typical rooter? Is that more typically like a root for

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Speaker 1: bacterial infection?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, with with bite as usially it's a bacterial infection.

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Speaker 2: You have a lot of bacteria that live in your mouth,

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Speaker 2: and so that that's usually bacterial infection. But you can't

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Speaker 2: have sort of you know, if you had a stick

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Speaker 2: or something that that pokes your pokes to your skin,

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Speaker 2: sort of a local localized inoculation where you kind of

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Speaker 2: have have stuck something into your skin, splinters or wood

401
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 2: or something like that. Sometimes you can see local, local action,

402
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: but the majority of funel infections are inhaled and so

403
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Speaker 2: where you're inhaling the scores and so that's the majority

404
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Speaker 2: of infections that are current in humans with funel infections,

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Speaker 2: that's usually the route of entry for most most fungus.

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Speaker 1: So so far, we don't have to worry too much

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Speaker 1: about a biting zombie apocalypse. More like a floating cloud

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Speaker 1: that we should avoid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a windy day that that that's good. But you

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Speaker 2: know your your immune system and you know we you're

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Speaker 2: exposed to to fungus and spores in the environment every

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Speaker 2: day when you're outside on a windy day, and so

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Speaker 2: it's usually it's not a big deal. Your body's immune

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Speaker 2: system takes care of it. You don't even know that

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Speaker 2: you've been exposed. The exceptions would be if you're exposed

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Speaker 2: to a lot all at once, or you're you're exposed

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Speaker 2: to something to and your immune system is weakend for

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Speaker 2: some reason.

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Speaker 1: Well, that kind of reminds me of like the when

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Speaker 1: house mold can actually cause problems for people. So mold

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Speaker 1: is a type of fungus, uh, and so like something

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Speaker 1: that may not be so much of a problem, and

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Speaker 1: say a wide open field or a bog where you're

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Speaker 1: not you know, kind of you're in the open space,

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Speaker 1: like if it's in a home with not great ventilation,

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Speaker 1: Is that where you see maybe more problems with like

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Speaker 1: inhalation of spores.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some people will, particularly they can develop sort of

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Speaker 2: an allergic response, and so it's a hyper you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of hyper response to certain molds and an ascent allergy.

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Speaker 2: And so with that that can trigger asthma. I can

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Speaker 2: trigger other sort of respiray diseases that can serve as

433
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: a trigger for that. And so certainly that that can

434
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: be a case and is common likely with with a

435
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 2: trigger for a lot of people's asthma.

436
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: Well, we are going to take another quick break, but

437
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: when we return, we're going to talk about the likelihood

438
00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: of a brain infection by a fungus. So you're back

439
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: right before the break. We're talking about like allergic reactions,

440
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: and that kind of reminds me of the one of

441
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: the most the bane of my existence at least is

442
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: the fungus that causes dandruff. Because not everyone like every

443
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: the way I heard it, explain to me and correct

444
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong about this, is that there are

445
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: some very common fung guy that are often found on humans,

446
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: on people, and they often don't cause problems, but some

447
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: people have more of a reaction to that, and that

448
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: can cause anything from like dandruff to other adverse skin

449
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: reactions like eczema. And I have had a lot of

450
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: skin reactions or you know, sort of a scalp itchiness

451
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: that I think I am particularly affected by this fungus.

452
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: But so like it is that it do. People's reactions

453
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: to fungus kind of very depending on you know, your

454
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: immune system or just your physiology.

455
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, dandrift can be caused by a fungus called Malsesia,

456
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 2: which is a common thing that lives on people's skin.

457
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: You know, some people who lives there and it's happy

458
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: and it's just sort of present and not a big deal.

459
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: Some people will develop more of this, you know, more

460
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: inflammatory hyper response to it and get dandrift and get

461
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 2: subaric dermatitis and sort of other conditions that are a

462
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: response to that. And so it's sort of the immune

463
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: system's response to that fungi that can cause information.

464
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm just unlucky that I can't be friends

465
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: with this fungus that lives on my scalp. And I

466
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: have to kill it with again a shampoo that has

467
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: an anti fungal in it, which so I do feel

468
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: a little bit protected in a fungal apocalypse situation because

469
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: I would just use my anti fungalampoo on these.

470
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that's gonna kind of really work

471
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: too well for you. Probably probably okay with preventing your

472
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: zombie apocalypse as long.

473
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: As it is a zombie apocalypse caused by really itchy

474
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: zombies with suborg dermatitis. So, but that these are like

475
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the fungal infections that are most commonly

476
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: known like athletes foot candida, you know, like suborg dermatitis,

477
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: these are there are more topical infections. We did talk

478
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: a little bit about inhaled spores that can cause you know,

479
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: respiratory issues, but it seems like it's pretty rare for

480
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: something like a fungal infection too. I mean, for for

481
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: most types of infection, to reach the brain is quite

482
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: rare because we have a blood brain barrier. The brain

483
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: is quite well protected. But sometimes things do actually reach

484
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: the brain. And there is I only know of one

485
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: actually through your Twitter, which is cryptococcal meningitis. So can

486
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about this form of infection.

487
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so cryptococus, it's another yeastcryptoccus nea foremans is a

488
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: common thing. Once again, it's in the environment. Everyone is

489
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: sort of exposed to it and you live your life

490
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: happily ever after, and you never know you've been exposed

491
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: to it if you become immuno compromised, or once again,

492
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: if you're exposed to a lot all at once, some

493
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: people can get pretty sick, and so some people will

494
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: do aut peumonia. But the most sort of pure complication

495
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: is meningitis, where the fungus basically disseminates from the lungs

496
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: through your bloodstream throughout the whole body, but also into

497
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: your brain and can sort of lodge into the blood

498
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: vessels of your brain. And there's a couple different theories

499
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: of how it crosses the blood brain barier, but gets

500
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: into the brain and surrounds the brain. And when it

501
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: surrounds the brain, it it kind of plugs up the

502
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: absorption of how your spinal fluid is absorbed, and so

503
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: it kind of it's like a clugg sink where it

504
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: sort of backs up, and so it creates a high

505
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: pressure around your brain which sort of slowly crushes your brain,

506
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: which sounds terrible, and it very much is terrible. And

507
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: so it's a slow growing infection like a lot of

508
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: bacterial menogitis, and so it's something that develops over days

509
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: to weeks to months, and so people will eventually show

510
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: up to healthcare just complain of this unrelenting headache, that

511
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: this is terrible. And so it's a pretty unpleasant disease.

512
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, So, I mean, is this something

513
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: that can be fatal?

514
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: I certainly can be fatal. It's probably one of the

515
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: more fatal fungal infections. It's also highly treatable, and so

516
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: you know among our patients and our sort of clinical

517
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: trials and things like that, about ninety percent of people

518
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 2: can can survive and do well long term. But you know,

519
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: without that sort of with expert care and sort of

520
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: a fair number of resources and more routine care, fatality

521
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: rates can be forty percent or higher.

522
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's I think it is. It's interesting

523
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 1: that we actually do have like the quite I guess,

524
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: quite frightening diseases like brain infection caused by fungus, But

525
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: then we have treatments for it, hopefully, treatments that people

526
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 1: can have access to I know that that can be

527
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: a problem of course, getting people access to these treatments.

528
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: I think that is something that I find interesting in

529
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: terms of these more apocalyptic movies, the idea that when

530
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: we're faced with something we haven't seen before, that we

531
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: have no tools at our disposal, whereas well, I mean,

532
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: what we've seen with like the coronavirus pandemic. Yes, we

533
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: didn't have a treatment at the beginning, but we developed

534
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: the treatment. And the idea that somehow society you would

535
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: break down before we even could begin to start any

536
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: kind of intervention, to me is not super likely. I mean,

537
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: what what do you think?

538
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Fortunately society did not break down. It wasn't wasn't

539
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: quite obvious there for a while. But no, yeah, no,

540
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: I think I think that you can see that with

541
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: ingenuity and resources, and I mean, there's a lot of

542
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: smart people around the world that can work towards solving

543
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: a problem. And so oftentimes it's an issue of priority, prioritization,

544
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: and in some cases it's about you know, in our system,

545
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: it's about the commercial market, and so can you make

546
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: you know, can a pharmaceutical you know, company make money

547
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: off of a treatment? And so for a lot of

548
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: you know, antibiotics and anti fungals. There's not a huge

549
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: incentive for you know, you can't make a huge amount

550
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: of money off of an antibotic you take for two weeks,

551
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: you know, versus a medicine you take for the rest

552
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: of your life. You know, you can make a ton

553
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: of money off of or cancer therapy where you're on

554
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: it for several weeks or months. And so there has

555
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 2: been sort of a disincentive and sort of sort of disinvestments.

556
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that's a word, but under we'll say,

557
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: an underinvestment and new sort of anti microbial agents, both

558
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: for bacteria as well as for fungi and so so

559
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: cryptic coccus, for instance, is considered sort of a neglected

560
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: uh neglected disease by the FDA, and so there's some

561
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: incentives and things that people can and try to you know,

562
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: bring a new drug to market, and they have sort

563
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: of incentives to do so. But still it's a big

564
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: it's a big reach. And so for you know, some

565
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: diseases as well, we have treatments for them, you know,

566
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: like valley fever that's in California with coxy there are

567
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: you know, could you have better treatments. And then so

568
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: I think we still need better treatments for a lot

569
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: of the fungi just because the treatments are pretty toxic

570
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: that we have sometimes.

571
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: So what you're saying is that medical care should be

572
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: based on science and human health rather than profits, which

573
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: I think is strange and interesting.

574
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's you know, I think sometimes can you

575
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: can you how do you align? The question is really,

576
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: you know, we love a capital society, and so how

577
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: can you align profit? Motive to us is for innovation

578
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 2: and so you know, we can have a new headache drug,

579
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: or we can have a new erectile dysfunction drug, but

580
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: that's really not like probably the most really impactful thing

581
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: for all of human health and existence, even though you

582
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: can make a lot of money off of it. Yeah,

583
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 2: and so and so the question is how, yeah, how

584
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: do you kind of simulate a for profit, you know,

585
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: pharma system to also consider other things which are in

586
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 2: the public good.

587
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe make them watch the Last of Us

588
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: and scare them and tell them, yes, this could definitely

589
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: happen if we don't start developing new anti fungals.

590
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: I'll try that suggestion. That not sure that will work tough,

591
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: but that there are some things in the pipeline and

592
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: there are a lot of this goes back to basic

593
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: science and stuff of like people working in tubes and

594
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: sort of you know, in mouse models and sort of

595
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: all the sort of basic science stuff to identify new

596
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: targets and so those targets can be moved forward and

597
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: look at what if you block that target. And so

598
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: it is kind of a long road of taking you know,

599
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: a concept to them, like into a drug trial and

600
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: humans is a long long road that can take you know,

601
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 2: decades or more sometimes.

602
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we yeah, it is. It is something that

603
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: we really have to incentive. I hate the word incentivized,

604
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: but yes, incentivize, push, push towards doing well before we go.

605
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you want I would like people

606
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: to know about fungus or the relationship between fungus or

607
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: and human health, or or why you're interested in mycology?

608
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know FUNCHI are diverse, you know organisms,

609
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: and so one of the more common ones that that

610
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: people might be familiar with is sacrimice uh servecea, which

611
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: is Brewers, yes, which is used and you don't have

612
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: to make wine to make you know, flour and baking,

613
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: and so there are good things, and there's good properties

614
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 2: that have been developed with with some yeast. Most of

615
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: these live in the environment and don't cause any human disease,

616
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: and they're part of thor of the natural process of decaying,

617
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: you know, dead and dyeing plant matter, and I guess

618
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: animal matter as well. But there are a handful that

619
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: certainly can cause serious disease, and they can be highly fatal,

620
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: and we certainly do need more better therapies. But yeah,

621
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: people are working on those, but it's kind of a

622
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: slow closet log often, and so you know, I'm I

623
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: don't know, I guess halfway through my career, but I

624
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: still consider myself a buddy mycologist and still learning along

625
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 2: the way of all the interesting things that these organisms

626
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: can do and how best we can help people with

627
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 2: these impressions.

628
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: So don't judge a fungus by its cap is sort

629
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: of the lesson here, or should we sometimes? I don't know.

630
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 1: I've never picked a wild mushroom and tried to eat

631
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: it because I cannot judge a motion by its cap

632
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: responsibly without maybe poisoning myself.

633
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: I think that's probably good analogis. Some can be wonderful

634
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: and some will field.

635
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Professor

636
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: David Wilware, and for answering my questions.

637
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: That's it's pleasure to be here. Thank you for the

638
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: invit