WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 22: Designed Randomness and the Maha Project

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast

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<v Speaker 1>and the Yoke with Doak. Today's episode is brought to

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<v Speaker 1>you by our friends over at B Dratty Golf. Season

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<v Speaker 1>is in full swing and we have our pro shop

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<v Speaker 1>all stocked up with some great B Dratty gear, including

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<v Speaker 1>a few different polos featuring their soft Peruvian cotton and

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<v Speaker 1>their Russ krew neck. The russkrew neck is one of

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<v Speaker 1>my favorite items. I know it's summer, it's summer, I

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<v Speaker 1>know that, and this is a sweatshirt, but I've got

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<v Speaker 1>a cold basement. I still wear my Russ crew necks

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<v Speaker 1>all around the house. I'm a huge fan of the

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<v Speaker 1>Russ crew neck. It's probably my favorite piece that be

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<v Speaker 1>Dratty makes. They were in such high demand we did it.

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<v Speaker 1>We placed an order about a year and a half ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and they were in such high demand last year during

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<v Speaker 1>the winter and fall seasons, we couldn't get our hands

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<v Speaker 1>on a reorder for the pro shop. So get these

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<v Speaker 1>while you still can, and also from now till the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the weekend May fourteenth, all of our polos

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<v Speaker 1>on our pro shop are twenty percent off, so go

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<v Speaker 1>check them out at www. Dot thefridagg dot com and

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<v Speaker 1>if you want a polo that doesn't have our logo,

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<v Speaker 1>go to b Dradty dot com. This edition of The

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<v Speaker 1>Yoke with Doc is the last episode from our massive

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<v Speaker 1>recording that we did in late January. Obviously, quite a

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<v Speaker 1>bit has happened in the world since then, it seems

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<v Speaker 1>like a very very long time ago. In this episode,

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<v Speaker 1>we talk mostly about Tom's very unique new project in

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<v Speaker 1>the Napa Valley area. And Tom has also has some

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<v Speaker 1>big news and something well. I'm sure we'll talk and

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<v Speaker 1>dive into more in the coming months. But he's got

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<v Speaker 1>a new book coming out which is available for pre

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<v Speaker 1>order now. It's called Getting to Eighteen. It's coming out

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<v Speaker 1>in a few weeks. He dives into the routing process

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<v Speaker 1>at all of his early designs in this book. I

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<v Speaker 1>got a chance to read a few of the chapters

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<v Speaker 1>a while back, the first couple chapters when he started

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<v Speaker 1>working on this book, and it was riveting. I hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>played two of the three courses that I read the

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<v Speaker 1>chapters on, and I found myself actually more compelled with

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<v Speaker 1>the courses I hadn't played yet. So if you're an

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<v Speaker 1>architecture fan and you like books. I would definitely recommend

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<v Speaker 1>getting to eighteen. And you can order that book on

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<v Speaker 1>his website, Renaissance Golf dot com. It's available for pre order.

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<v Speaker 1>I know he only is publishing a certain quantity, So

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to get this book, you should get

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<v Speaker 1>it now. And now, without further ado, here is Tom

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<v Speaker 1>Douk I miss.

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<v Speaker 2>A green for example, I'm already upset when I find

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<v Speaker 2>my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I find my ball.

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<v Speaker 2>In a fried egg Frida egg, the dreaded fri bride egg, Lie,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

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<v Speaker 1>How'd you come up with the Doak scale?

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<v Speaker 2>Really, it was just, you know, the idea for the

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<v Speaker 2>Confidential Guide originally was just that I'm writing reviews of

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<v Speaker 2>golf courses. And we talked a little last night. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean one of my inspirations. I'm a big baseball fan,

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<v Speaker 2>and a book.

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<v Speaker 3>That I had read.

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<v Speaker 2>A couple of years before that that I that I

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<v Speaker 2>really loved was a book by Bill James, the baseball

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<v Speaker 2>stats nerd who you know eventually got in the baseball

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<v Speaker 2>business and was advisor to teams for years, and he

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<v Speaker 2>wrote something in the eighties when he was just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>nobody knew who the hell he was, and he lived

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<v Speaker 2>in Kansas by himself. But he was really analyzing baseball

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<v Speaker 2>in his spare time, and he wrote something called the

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<v Speaker 2>Baseball Abstract, which was a lot of the same topics

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<v Speaker 2>that he would cover for teams now and all the

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<v Speaker 2>essays he does about you know, just bunting, help you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how important are take how important is being able to

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<v Speaker 2>take a walk versus swinging at every pitch? But he

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<v Speaker 2>also his Baseball Abstract, the funniest part of it by far,

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<v Speaker 2>he would rate every player in the major leagues, or

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<v Speaker 2>every starting player in the major leagues, by position, so

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<v Speaker 2>center fielders, here's the best one, number one, all the

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<v Speaker 2>way down to number twenty four. But he would also

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<v Speaker 2>write like a paragraph or two about those players, and

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<v Speaker 2>his little reviews of the players were just funny as hell.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, well it could be, you know, sometimes they

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<v Speaker 2>were dead serious and like this is why I don't

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<v Speaker 2>like this guy so much. And sometimes it's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody knows he's a great player, so let me write

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<v Speaker 2>something different about him that nobody would know. There's no

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<v Speaker 2>point in saying that Ricky Henderson's a great player, or

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<v Speaker 2>Pete Rose was still a great player back then, or whoever.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>He could write that. He could write something funny or

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<v Speaker 2>critical or negative about Ricky Henderson, but he also had

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<v Speaker 2>him rated as the number one left fielder, and that

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<v Speaker 2>compensated for whatever he wanted to write about. So when

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<v Speaker 2>I was writing my reviews of golf courses, I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>something so I could say, you know, instead of telling

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<v Speaker 2>you that I think Pebble.

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<v Speaker 3>Beach is a really, really good golf course and.

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<v Speaker 2>That the sixth hole through the tenth hole are is

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<v Speaker 2>the best stretch of golf holes anywhere in America. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody knows that, there was no point me write and

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<v Speaker 2>about that. So I wanted to write about the holes

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<v Speaker 2>that I didn't like, but I wanted something in there

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<v Speaker 2>to say, Okay, these are the holes I don't like,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm not saying it's not.

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<v Speaker 3>A really good course.

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<v Speaker 2>So I could write my semi negative review of Pebble

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<v Speaker 2>Beach and give it a nine on the dok scale

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<v Speaker 2>and everybody would go, oh, okay, you know, he doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>think it's one of the ten best courses in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>but he still really thinks it's good. He's just saying,

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<v Speaker 2>this is why it's not one of the ten best

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<v Speaker 2>courses in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>And also like on the flip side, give a course

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<v Speaker 1>that gets everything out of itself praise, but also reference

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<v Speaker 1>like this isn't Pebble Beach.

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<v Speaker 2>Still, yes, absolutely, yeah, I really had fun here and

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<v Speaker 2>there was this one cool hole. But it's only a

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<v Speaker 2>four or five. Let's not get carried away. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as my current wife says, it's not it would have

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<v Speaker 2>been a great book without the numbers, because people focus

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<v Speaker 2>so much on.

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<v Speaker 3>The numbers instead of the reviews.

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<v Speaker 1>But but people would say you hate Pebble Beach without

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<v Speaker 1>the number.

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<v Speaker 2>They still say I hate Pebble Beach because it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a ten. It's you know, it's just it's crazy. How

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<v Speaker 2>if I didn't give a golf course an eight or

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<v Speaker 2>a nine or a ten.

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<v Speaker 3>Everybody thinks I hate it.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I I enjoy playing a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>courses there are a five on the dok scale or

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<v Speaker 2>even below sometimes.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I'm just.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the number says Okay, just because I like

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<v Speaker 2>this doesn't mean you should fly to halfway across the

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<v Speaker 2>country to get there tomorrow. You know, it's fun when

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<v Speaker 2>you're there, you know, take it on those terms.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why I think is the best part is it

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<v Speaker 1>gives context to it, because like there could be a

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<v Speaker 1>really great golf course, but it's not.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it puts it into.

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<v Speaker 1>Context of like this is a great golf course, but

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<v Speaker 1>like it's not get on a plane to go see

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<v Speaker 1>it's if you're in the area. That's the thing I

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<v Speaker 1>find the most interesting. I'm curious, what what's the best

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<v Speaker 1>What's the course that you've seen make the biggest jump

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<v Speaker 1>in your eyes from like a project they did, like

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<v Speaker 1>where it's gone from say a five. What's the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>jump in in the number that you've seen happen from work?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, I don't know, because usually you know, I would

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<v Speaker 2>I would tend to rate the golf course higher if

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<v Speaker 2>I thought that I would rate it fairly high originally.

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<v Speaker 2>If I thought that it was a good golf course

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<v Speaker 2>and they just kind of messed up some things, I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't you know, I'd still give it a pretty good

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<v Speaker 2>score instead of instead of knocking the grade way down

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<v Speaker 2>because it was a mess right now, because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I assume that sooner or later some of that stuff

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<v Speaker 2>would get fixed. So so the ones that I've changed

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<v Speaker 2>my mind on and rate it much higher, it hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been so much because somebody restored him and did a

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<v Speaker 2>great job. I'd already given them some points for that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's more like, you know, I just when I saw

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<v Speaker 2>this golf course, especially the courses that I saw in

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<v Speaker 2>the UK thirty five years ago, when I was on

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<v Speaker 2>that trip, It's like, Okay, I've I just spent a

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<v Speaker 2>month in Saint Andrew's, I'd just been a week at

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<v Speaker 2>Royal Dornick, and now I'm here and this is a four.

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<v Speaker 3>Of five compared to them.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I go back years later and I'm like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this is like a six or a seven compared to

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<v Speaker 2>everything else in the world. It's just when I saw

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<v Speaker 2>this in nineteen eighty three, I had just spent a

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<v Speaker 2>week at all the nines and tens, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was just hard to rate them that highly and

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<v Speaker 2>compare with those golf courses.

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<v Speaker 3>So, you know, it's more about, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, the dark scales not infallible. You know, when when

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<v Speaker 2>I have to fix something, it's more that I just

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<v Speaker 2>did a bad job rate in the golf course the

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<v Speaker 2>first time, you know, it's like if it poured rain

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<v Speaker 2>and you could barely you know, look forward and see

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<v Speaker 2>the golf hole. It's hard to rate the golf course

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<v Speaker 2>really highly no matter what. And you know, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>few that that's the only time I saw them.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I tried. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>The one thing I'll say in my defense of that

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<v Speaker 2>is I would at least try to write about that

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<v Speaker 2>in the book, you know, if if I didn't like it,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was partly because it was just a shitty

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<v Speaker 2>day to play golf, that's probably in my review of

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<v Speaker 2>the golf course that like, you know, maybe this would

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<v Speaker 2>be better if you could see.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's with anything like the you could have

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<v Speaker 1>happened with a restaurant.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, absolutely even the best restaurants in the world

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<v Speaker 2>occasionally don't hit the mark.

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<v Speaker 1>Or if you've had like a shitty day going into it, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and you just aren't in the you just have had it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a that's a that's the thing with like your

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<v Speaker 1>your experience and perception of things are so much a

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<v Speaker 1>part of everything else that happens.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of golfers there their review of something is

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<v Speaker 2>entirely based on how well they played entirely. Anybody that

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<v Speaker 2>has a whole rank exit and that's.

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<v Speaker 3>That's not that is not me at all.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I could play bad and still think it's

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<v Speaker 2>a great golf course, and I can play good and

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<v Speaker 2>still think it's a crappy golf course. In fact, if

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<v Speaker 2>I play really good, you start I start to question

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<v Speaker 2>if this could be really a really good course.

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<v Speaker 1>But I've noticed sometimes when I play my worst rounds,

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<v Speaker 1>I have the most appreciation because I'm all over the place.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, you can you actually see how the architecture works

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<v Speaker 2>when you're out of position. If you just if you

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<v Speaker 2>you were standing in the middle of every fairway two

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<v Speaker 2>ninety off the tea looking at the green, Golf's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>dull a lot of the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly, and you're not anywhere, but it's it's I've had

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<v Speaker 1>an experience recently where I the first time I played it,

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<v Speaker 1>I played it just like one of my best rounds ever,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was just And then the next time I

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<v Speaker 1>was in a really bad place and I was all over.

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<v Speaker 3>But then all of a sudden it.

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<v Speaker 1>Became way more fun because I was you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>saw the way all these different the green contours work

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<v Speaker 1>in a different way, you know, so that it's I

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<v Speaker 1>totally agree with that, and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Do when we're building courses. You know, well we actually start.

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.679
<v Speaker 2>When you're building a course, usually you put a steak,

0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.439
<v Speaker 2>a big a steak with like a ten foot piece

0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 2>of pipe attached to it at the tee and the

0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.840
<v Speaker 2>landing area for the drive and then at the green.

0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 2>And you know, early on you tempted to like stand

0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.640
<v Speaker 2>at the post in the landing area and look at

0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.679
<v Speaker 2>the green from there and think that's the approach shot

0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 2>that people are going to have. But you know, if

0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.120
<v Speaker 2>you're not a really good player, you're not going to

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:18.480
<v Speaker 2>be right at that stake. You could be forty fifty

0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:24.080
<v Speaker 2>yards behind it, thirty yards offline to either side whatever,

0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, because you're not Jack Nicholas and you don't

0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.600
<v Speaker 2>hit it right to the steak all the time. And

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:35.040
<v Speaker 2>that's actually you know, so I've stopped first, I stopped

0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.839
<v Speaker 2>standing at the stake. I would go look twenty from

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.240
<v Speaker 2>twenty yards to the right and twenty yards to the left.

0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.720
<v Speaker 2>One course, I told Eric Iverson when he was first

0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.160
<v Speaker 2>starting working for me, just try to make the green

0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 2>look really different from if you're standing right of the steak,

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.959
<v Speaker 2>or stand in left of the steak. If you make

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.160
<v Speaker 2>it feel different, that'll be an interesting golf hall, no

0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 2>matter what you build for the green. But you know

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 2>I would start after a while, I started thinking, you know,

0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.160
<v Speaker 2>you remember where the steak was when you're playing the

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.760
<v Speaker 2>golf course, and you just start laughing to yourself, like,

0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:15.520
<v Speaker 2>nobody's near the steak.

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.320
<v Speaker 3>Here. We are, four of us, we've just hit our.

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Drives, nobody's anywhere close to that steak was. So eventually

0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I just said, let's throw that sucker out of here

0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 2>and not pay any attention to it at all, and

0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:34.120
<v Speaker 2>just build hazards that look interesting and not worry about

0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.520
<v Speaker 2>whether they're too sixty from the tee or two eighty

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.000
<v Speaker 2>from the tea.

0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:40.040
<v Speaker 3>You know, and not.

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:45.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, hopefully we don't repeat ourselves, but you know,

0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:47.720
<v Speaker 2>I think my golf course has got to be more

0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.160
<v Speaker 2>interesting when I did that, when it's not all based

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.240
<v Speaker 2>on how far is a good drive?

0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.400
<v Speaker 1>And that's like the interesting thing you talked about earlier

0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 1>with the the kid that was talking about design with

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.880
<v Speaker 1>all analytics is that if it becomes all analytical, what

0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:06.640
<v Speaker 1>happens when the analytics change?

0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, you know, Jack Nicholas talks about, well,

0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:13.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, the equipment's.

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:13.800
<v Speaker 3>Changed so much.

0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.440
<v Speaker 2>He has to go back and change a lot of

0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 2>his golf courses because they were designed around a two

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.160
<v Speaker 2>hundred eighty yard drive, and now they should be designed

0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.479
<v Speaker 2>around a three hundred yard driver, a three hundred.

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 3>And ten yard drive. But really.

0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.760
<v Speaker 2>He shouldn't have designed them around a two hundred eighty

0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 2>yard drive, because that's that's an average.

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:34.160
<v Speaker 3>That's not everybody.

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you put all the fairway bunkers at

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:41.160
<v Speaker 2>two eighty, there's guys that can fly everyone, they're irrelevant

0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 2>completely to them. And there's guys that are short of that,

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and they're irrelevant completely to those guys. And you're just

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 2>pounding the same guy who hits it to seventy five.

0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.520
<v Speaker 2>He can never carry the bunker, and you know the

0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.920
<v Speaker 2>golf course is a lot harder for him. The hard

0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.920
<v Speaker 2>part is, you know, when you're a good, really good

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.440
<v Speaker 2>player and you're designing golf courses, you don't think about

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.200
<v Speaker 2>it in terms of all your peers. You think of

0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:11.400
<v Speaker 2>it in terms of you, and you think I hit it.

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, a two hundred and eighty yard drive is

0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 2>much better for me than a two hundred and sixty

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.520
<v Speaker 2>yard drive A two hundred and sixt yard drive I missed,

0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.080
<v Speaker 2>So I should penalize that and reward a two hundred

0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.680
<v Speaker 2>and eighty yard drive. But that doesn't apply to the

0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.480
<v Speaker 2>guy plan next to you. You know, for him, those

0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 2>numbers might be two forty and two sixty, or they

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:33.400
<v Speaker 2>might be too eighty and three hundred.

0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 1>And isn't that that randomness that you're kind of alluding

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.080
<v Speaker 1>to the with all the golfers and the averages. Isn't

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 1>the randomness what makes the old course so brilliant?

0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:46.120
<v Speaker 3>I certainly think so.

0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, I've been misquoted as saying that,

0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:57.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, we just place bunkers completely at random, which

0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 2>is not literally true. I mean, you know, when you've

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.720
<v Speaker 2>laid out the hole, you sort of decided where to

0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>put the tea and the landing area based on the landform,

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know you're looking at potential places to put

0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.200
<v Speaker 2>a bunker, so it's not random when you put a

0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 2>bunker there. All I've ever said was I'm trying to

0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 2>mix it up, and you know, hopefully you can just

0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.920
<v Speaker 2>mix it up by putting things where they look good

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.119
<v Speaker 2>and seem to make sense and that's not always the

0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.200
<v Speaker 2>same distance, but you're not really paying that close attention.

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.439
<v Speaker 2>You do have to go back, and you know, we

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.239
<v Speaker 2>do go back and check ourselves to make sure that

0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.640
<v Speaker 2>we didn't put every fairway bunker at two forty and right.

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:42.720
<v Speaker 3>You know that would be terrible if.

0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.119
<v Speaker 2>You just kept if you just kept hurting the same player.

0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:49.360
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't make sense to me at all.

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.400
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's something that with like playability has

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.240
<v Speaker 1>become such a big talking point. And you know, you

0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 1>architecture's got this pendulum. And one of the things if

0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.639
<v Speaker 1>you think about playability for the twenty handicap at some

0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.840
<v Speaker 1>point that I had a reader one time email me

0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.840
<v Speaker 1>and say, you know one thing you're forgetting about is

0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.000
<v Speaker 1>that I, as a twenty five handicap. One of the

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 1>things I want to be thrilled. I want hazard to

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.880
<v Speaker 1>my way because if you remove everything for me, then

0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.399
<v Speaker 1>you're robbing me the experience of golf.

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:26.720
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it just becomes boring. You know.

0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.240
<v Speaker 2>The idea that you know, it's the nineteen fifties idea.

0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.880
<v Speaker 2>Both Trent Jones and Dick Wilson thought the same way.

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.400
<v Speaker 2>The bunkers should be out there where the average guy

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.959
<v Speaker 2>doesn't even get to them, which you know makes the

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>game from tee to green pretty boring. For the guy

0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.200
<v Speaker 2>that can't quite reach all those hazards. It's just like, Oh,

0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to hit it as far as I can,

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.960
<v Speaker 2>but I know I'm not thinking about going left of

0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:51.399
<v Speaker 2>that bunker.

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:52.479
<v Speaker 3>It doesn't make any difference.

0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's so.

0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:01.479
<v Speaker 1>Golf Guide had a question about the Maha project and

0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 1>is it similar to any projects you've worked on before.

0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, this is what I haven't talked about very much

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 2>because it's in northern California, and you know, permits take

0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:18.920
<v Speaker 2>years and years in California, and the clients are especially

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:24.159
<v Speaker 2>concerned about whether some you know, there's more people potentially

0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:29.040
<v Speaker 2>around to come and pick it and you know, disturb

0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.960
<v Speaker 2>a permit meeting and you know, set the project back.

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 2>So while they've been in the process of getting permits

0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.160
<v Speaker 2>for it, they've wanted to keep it quiet what we're

0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:43.679
<v Speaker 2>working on. But it's a resort project in northern California,

0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.320
<v Speaker 2>and it's close to Napa, but it's it's out of

0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.879
<v Speaker 2>Napa County because years ago I was involved with the

0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.919
<v Speaker 2>project that we were trying to get permits to do

0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.159
<v Speaker 2>something in Napa County. You know, in connection with that

0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Etna Springs project that we did, we're going to build

0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.199
<v Speaker 2>another eighteen whole course, but Napa County made it just

0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:06.680
<v Speaker 2>impossible to get permits. I've never been to public meetings

0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:07.200
<v Speaker 2>like those.

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.760
<v Speaker 1>There's more than four people in the backyard.

0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.800
<v Speaker 2>There were a lot They came with their own avy,

0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:21.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, they came with their own little film in

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 2>opposition to the golf course. And that was just the

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.399
<v Speaker 2>start of it. It was a brutal process. So so

0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.240
<v Speaker 2>you really can't build a new course in Napa County

0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.320
<v Speaker 2>at all. And I don't blame them in a way.

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, if Napa County hadn't been so standoffish about

0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.640
<v Speaker 2>zoning for years, you couldn't even drive up that road

0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:44.800
<v Speaker 2>in the valley anymore. I mean, there would be so

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.879
<v Speaker 2>much traffic and so much stuff there it would have

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.520
<v Speaker 2>been ruined. So good for them that they protected that.

0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:56.480
<v Speaker 2>But you know, luckily the county that's next to them

0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.120
<v Speaker 2>is like, oh no, we're not like that.

0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.000
<v Speaker 3>We'd actually like so development here.

0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:08.280
<v Speaker 2>And so my clients have planned a very high end resort.

0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:14.119
<v Speaker 2>You know, they've always built smaller boutique hotels, very small,

0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you know they're they're almost marketed as

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>for non golfers because you know, they're romantic places to

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.920
<v Speaker 2>take your wife, and they're very expensive. And the fact

0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.439
<v Speaker 2>that they're so small means they don't support a golf course.

0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's hard to operate a golf resort when

0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:40.160
<v Speaker 2>there's only sixteen rooms at your hotel or twenty four rooms.

0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, even if everybody was playing golf, the course

0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.919
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be doing enough business to make money.

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 3>So that wouldn't make any sense.

0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:52.359
<v Speaker 2>So, you know, the developers right at the start they said,

0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, you know, I know you've never done golf,

0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.639
<v Speaker 2>but you don't really hate golf, do you. And they're like, no, no,

0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:00.919
<v Speaker 2>we don't hate golf. It just the scale of it

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.240
<v Speaker 2>never made sense for us. But this, this is a

0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.359
<v Speaker 2>this is a huge piece of land. It's twenty five

0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 2>thousand acres and it's so they're going to do three

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:15.879
<v Speaker 2>or four small hotels on their property, a couple miles

0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 2>apart from each other, that are way different from one another,

0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:23.200
<v Speaker 2>and but the critical mass of all of those means, okay,

0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:24.760
<v Speaker 2>now it makes sense if they.

0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:26.200
<v Speaker 3>Have golf too.

0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:28.919
<v Speaker 2>So I said to him in the beginning, well, you know,

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.399
<v Speaker 2>what don't you like about what don't you like about golf?

0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 2>And the main client said, you know, it's I mean,

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>he's always built resorts in beautiful places with a beautiful beach,

0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:51.639
<v Speaker 2>but always small and very focused. And he said, I

0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:54.199
<v Speaker 2>just don't like the big green blob. You know, it

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.840
<v Speaker 2>just seems to dominate. It takes up so much land

0:22:57.000 --> 0:23:00.480
<v Speaker 2>and it dominates the landscape. And you know, I've always

0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.960
<v Speaker 2>been about the you know, small intimate thing and the

0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:08.440
<v Speaker 2>perfect view, and that just doesn't seem to.

0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:08.399
<v Speaker 3>To relate to it.

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:10.880
<v Speaker 2>And I sort of nodded, and I could understand where

0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.199
<v Speaker 2>he was coming from on that. You know, it's like

0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:15.080
<v Speaker 2>the golf course takes over.

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 3>The view of the landscape.

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:18.000
<v Speaker 2>When you look at the landscape, you see a golf

0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:22.919
<v Speaker 2>course now instead of seeing beautiful oak trees and yellow

0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:28.480
<v Speaker 2>grasses and vineyards and whatever else is out there. So

0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:31.240
<v Speaker 2>so that you know, they had all these pretty famous

0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:33.920
<v Speaker 2>architects around that they're you know, each of them is

0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.159
<v Speaker 2>going to design a separate little resort. So they're all

0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.200
<v Speaker 2>around the table talking about it, and you know they're

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.320
<v Speaker 2>talking about how one of them is probably going to

0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.320
<v Speaker 2>be like an equestrian oriented.

0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:46.760
<v Speaker 3>Resort where you can ride horses.

0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.280
<v Speaker 2>And they're talking about, well, you know, to ride a

0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.440
<v Speaker 2>horse from the one resort over to the other resort

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.800
<v Speaker 2>three miles away and have lunch over there and ride

0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:57.560
<v Speaker 2>back and kind of make a day out of it.

0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.240
<v Speaker 2>And I sort of filed that away mentally. And so

0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>when you know, this is a I mean, this is

0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:06.520
<v Speaker 2>not only a big piece of ground, but it's a

0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:07.800
<v Speaker 2>really rugged piece of ground.

0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:12.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean there's there's.

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.919
<v Speaker 2>Streams running through it, there's a river on one side,

0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:23.520
<v Speaker 2>There's you know, three or four hundred feet of elevation

0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:29.080
<v Speaker 2>change easily. There's mountain views in all directions. It's a

0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:32.800
<v Speaker 2>really dramatic piece of land. Without an ocean, but it's

0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:37.720
<v Speaker 2>a really dramatic piece of land. And you know, it

0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.440
<v Speaker 2>would have been hard to just build an eighteen whole

0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>course in one piece of it that worked really well,

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:50.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, just you know a bunch of holes out

0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and back to the clubhouse like you think of a

0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:57.720
<v Speaker 2>typical country club, because you know, there's big elevation changes

0:24:57.760 --> 0:24:59.679
<v Speaker 2>to deal with, and you know it would have been

0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:02.719
<v Speaker 2>hard walking back and forth. So I started thinking, and

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, when they when they started talking about these

0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:10.520
<v Speaker 2>other activities that can connect the resorts together. I said,

0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:13.639
<v Speaker 2>what if I did the golf course like that? You know,

0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.760
<v Speaker 2>what if the golf course started up here and finished

0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:20.359
<v Speaker 2>way over there, Because that then it wouldn't be a

0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.800
<v Speaker 2>green blob. It'd kind of be a line through the property.

0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:26.720
<v Speaker 1>Almost like a meanders through the property like a trail.

0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:32.600
<v Speaker 2>And and when you're close to it, a lot of

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:35.800
<v Speaker 2>times you're just looking across one hole. You know, you

0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:39.560
<v Speaker 2>got forty yards of green grass and then a bunch

0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:43.679
<v Speaker 2>of native plants on the other side, and you know,

0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:45.560
<v Speaker 2>you're not looking at the big green blob at all.

0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:50.000
<v Speaker 2>If you're not looking at a bunker or something golf specific,

0:25:50.040 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>you probably wouldn't even know that that was a golf

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:55.919
<v Speaker 2>course at all. And immediately the client was like, that

0:25:56.080 --> 0:26:01.160
<v Speaker 2>sounds really interesting, And so we now have a golf

0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:07.480
<v Speaker 2>course laid out that the first tee is four hundred

0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:10.080
<v Speaker 2>and fifty feet higher than the eighteenth green and two

0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>miles away. And it doesn't it's not all just straight

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:17.520
<v Speaker 2>in the line. It kind of you know, the the

0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:18.640
<v Speaker 2>front nine kind.

0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:19.639
<v Speaker 3>Of from where you start.

0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.800
<v Speaker 2>You start up on the on a high hill with

0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:27.320
<v Speaker 2>a gorgeous view, and you play three or four holes

0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:30.119
<v Speaker 2>just staring down into a deep canyon that's a couple

0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:34.359
<v Speaker 2>hundred feet below you, and then you play back. You

0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:37.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of loop back toward the starting point, but not

0:26:37.040 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 2>all the way to it, and then out through this

0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:45.320
<v Speaker 2>big meadow to a halfway house sitting on a ridge,

0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 2>and then from there, from the tenth tee to the

0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:52.240
<v Speaker 2>eleventh green, the course drops like four hundred feet, so

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:55.200
<v Speaker 2>it drops so fast that we we were like, I

0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:57.760
<v Speaker 2>don't even think we can put a golf cart path

0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:00.000
<v Speaker 2>down this thing. It's so steep. So we're actually gonna

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.879
<v Speaker 2>I have like a funicular to get from the tenth

0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:06.000
<v Speaker 2>tee to the tenth green down the hill and then

0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 2>and then the eleventh is still way downhill too, but

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:11.160
<v Speaker 2>but you've got to there.

0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:13.040
<v Speaker 3>You've got a place to make the car path kind

0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 3>of wind around and get down there.

0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:21.040
<v Speaker 2>So it's this huge landscape with a golf course running

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:24.439
<v Speaker 2>through it, but it, you know, it doesn't feel like

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.760
<v Speaker 2>a golf It doesn't feel like a normal golf course

0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:28.280
<v Speaker 2>really at all.

0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:28.920
<v Speaker 3>I don't think.

0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, just those when you stand where the half

0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 2>way house is and you look down at where the

0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:35.520
<v Speaker 2>eleventh green and the twelfth hole are going to be

0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:40.920
<v Speaker 2>your like, my god, that's just that's so far down there,

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:43.240
<v Speaker 2>and it's and it's seems the scale of this place

0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 2>is just off the charts.

0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 1>And have you ever had a course where, you know,

0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:53.960
<v Speaker 1>more than a couple hundred yards the starting position the

0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:56.200
<v Speaker 1>ending eighteen is first and eighteen.

0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've done that once or twice before. You know,

0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:01.199
<v Speaker 2>Black Forest and Miss was like that one of my

0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:05.000
<v Speaker 2>early courses, and that was strictly because the client had

0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:10.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, they they had an existing course and a clubhouse,

0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:11.720
<v Speaker 2>and then they didn't own you know, there were a

0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:14.359
<v Speaker 2>bunch of lots that they'd sold and we so we

0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:17.240
<v Speaker 2>couldn't start an end right near the clubhouse, but we

0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:20.040
<v Speaker 2>figured out a way to start fairly close to the clubhouse.

0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:22.600
<v Speaker 2>And then it didn't make sense to go way back

0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:26.119
<v Speaker 2>up the hill from sixteen or seventeen to try to

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:28.439
<v Speaker 2>finish there. We just finished in the valley and then

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:31.280
<v Speaker 2>you ride back after you're done. And then Dismal River

0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:33.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of the same thing. You know, their clubhouse was

0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.399
<v Speaker 2>already away from the first golf course, and they had

0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of lots planned around where their clubhouse was,

0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:42.000
<v Speaker 2>so there was no and the land was really rugged there,

0:28:42.000 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>so it didn't make sense to try to get our

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:47.600
<v Speaker 2>course really close. And you know, once you're you know,

0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 2>once you're starting a mile away from the clubhouse, it's like,

0:28:51.080 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>does it really matter if we finish where we start?

0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Could beating?

0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:55.960
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:59.840
<v Speaker 2>I asked the client that point blank, really early in

0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:02.080
<v Speaker 2>the process at Dismal River, and he looked at me

0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:05.960
<v Speaker 2>really funny, like what do you mean? But you know,

0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:08.040
<v Speaker 2>and then I explained it. I'm like, well, you know,

0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:09.680
<v Speaker 2>you're going to have to take a cart from the

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:13.320
<v Speaker 2>clubhouse all the way out here to start. Is it

0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:16.680
<v Speaker 2>important to finish here so you could take the cart

0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:18.840
<v Speaker 2>all the way back or could we you know, could

0:29:18.880 --> 0:29:21.200
<v Speaker 2>we finish down there by the river instead, because there's

0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:24.120
<v Speaker 2>some there's some land for some beautiful holes down by

0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:26.680
<v Speaker 2>the river. But I don't really want to play the

0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:28.480
<v Speaker 2>two holes straight up the hill it.

0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:29.760
<v Speaker 3>Would take to get out of there.

0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:32.000
<v Speaker 2>I'd rather just finish there and then you take a

0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 2>cart back to where you're going. And he said, no,

0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that's fine, let's do that. And you know, you know,

0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:44.280
<v Speaker 2>there's some people that just will not accept this as

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:46.200
<v Speaker 2>a viable alternative for a golf court. So you know,

0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:49.840
<v Speaker 2>I've had some good friends that you know, you can't

0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's important to finish close to the clubhouse

0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and have that intimacy and finishing way down there on

0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.400
<v Speaker 2>the river way away just doesn't make any sense. And

0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:02.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, I say, but there's not even there's not

0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:04.440
<v Speaker 2>even a pro shop by the first tea, so why

0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 2>would you want to finish back there? So the course,

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:11.720
<v Speaker 2>the Maha course, will take that to a whole new

0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:17.479
<v Speaker 2>level of stretching the golf course out on a string

0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 2>and not really feeling like you're you know, you're just

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 2>moving away from the clubhouse and meandering around, but you

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 2>are doing it in I think the most dramatic landscape

0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:32.920
<v Speaker 2>that I've ever had to build a golf course in.

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can't there are no holes like that

0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:40.760
<v Speaker 2>eleventh hole because on other golf courses, because on other

0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 2>golf courses you'd have to get back up the hill.

0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:45.320
<v Speaker 2>And you know, the only way you build a hole

0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:47.120
<v Speaker 2>like that is if you don't have to go back

0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:47.560
<v Speaker 2>up there.

0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:52.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's like it's like a hike. You know,

0:30:52.680 --> 0:30:55.760
<v Speaker 1>there aren't there aren't many hikes where you get to

0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:58.240
<v Speaker 1>just go and to the end because you always have

0:30:58.320 --> 0:30:59.840
<v Speaker 1>to come back to where you started.

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Right And you know, and I've been describing this in

0:31:02.000 --> 0:31:04.400
<v Speaker 2>terms of golf carts, but part of the idea of

0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:08.120
<v Speaker 2>it is it's walkable because you know, even because you

0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:10.840
<v Speaker 2>don't have to hike all the way back up the hill.

0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:14.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, the greens and teas are all close together,

0:31:14.600 --> 0:31:15.160
<v Speaker 2>and you're.

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Going to like another part of the resort, and you

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:19.000
<v Speaker 1>can get a shuttle.

0:31:18.760 --> 0:31:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Back exactly You're going to another part of the resort,

0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:23.040
<v Speaker 2>and you know you'll have a beer or you have

0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 2>lunch or dinner down there when you're done, and then

0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:27.480
<v Speaker 2>get shuttled back to your hotel.

0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:30.480
<v Speaker 1>It's got to be that's got to be one of

0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:34.440
<v Speaker 1>the most unique routing exercises you've ever got to do,

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:37.880
<v Speaker 1>because it threw throws one of the rules like out

0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:38.320
<v Speaker 1>of play.

0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:40.920
<v Speaker 3>I love it when I can throw rules out of play.

0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 2>And you know, it almost had to be something like

0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:47.760
<v Speaker 2>that because the ground is so rugged. I mean, when

0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:51.280
<v Speaker 2>when you think about that concept on a normal piece

0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:54.520
<v Speaker 2>of land, you know, you would have like a million

0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:57.040
<v Speaker 2>different options on what to do and it would take

0:31:57.080 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 2>forever to figure out or how am I gonna you

0:31:59.880 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 2>know I could go anywhere with this routing now, so

0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:03.480
<v Speaker 2>how am I going.

0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:05.360
<v Speaker 3>To decide what's the best solution.

0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:10.040
<v Speaker 2>This land is rugged enough that you know, there's not

0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:13.360
<v Speaker 2>a whole ton of places you could go. It's not like,

0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:17.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're not going to go off the off

0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:22.320
<v Speaker 2>the cliff by the second tee down into that valley

0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:26.960
<v Speaker 2>unless we're going an entirely different direction and finishing somewhere

0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:29.360
<v Speaker 2>way away. And then that valley with the stream going

0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.320
<v Speaker 2>through it is too narrow for a golf hole.

0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:33.800
<v Speaker 3>So I thought about it, but it just didn't make

0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 3>any sense to go.

0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:38.160
<v Speaker 2>Down there, and there were really like you know, if

0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:43.600
<v Speaker 2>you I usually make a lot of the decisions about

0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:47.480
<v Speaker 2>how a routing works on a map and then go

0:32:47.640 --> 0:32:49.760
<v Speaker 2>check it out in the field to see how it works.

0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:51.800
<v Speaker 2>And sometimes you know, when you're out in the field

0:32:51.840 --> 0:32:53.040
<v Speaker 2>you see something.

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:56.520
<v Speaker 3>You know, wow, there's a huge beautiful oak tree there.

0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:58.920
<v Speaker 2>We should play the play a hole over that way,

0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:01.240
<v Speaker 2>which you wouldn't have seen on the map. So I

0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:03.160
<v Speaker 2>do go back and forth. It isn't all based on

0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:05.880
<v Speaker 2>the map. Bill Correr, when I worked with them at

0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:08.480
<v Speaker 2>stream Song, when we were trying to put the routings together,

0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:11.360
<v Speaker 2>for the two courses. He really does most of it

0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:12.720
<v Speaker 2>in the field.

0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:13.080
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:16.240
<v Speaker 2>He starts from one point and he looks at how

0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:18.840
<v Speaker 2>many holes, how many different holes could I play from here?

0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I could make a par five go into that hill

0:33:21.280 --> 0:33:24.720
<v Speaker 2>over there, or I could make a par four go

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:28.200
<v Speaker 2>in along this water, or I could make a par

0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:30.080
<v Speaker 2>three to that little knob, or I could make a

0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:31.360
<v Speaker 2>par three behind me.

0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:32.440
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.520
<v Speaker 2>So he'll have like four or five different places that

0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:39.000
<v Speaker 2>it looks like that's a good hole, and then he'll

0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:41.240
<v Speaker 2>go to every single one of those places and do

0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 2>the same thing. So he's got like a million vectors

0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:49.440
<v Speaker 2>of different places that you could connect together, and you know,

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.520
<v Speaker 2>and he's trying to see how do I connect these together.

0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:56.400
<v Speaker 2>In the case of Maha, they don't have to connect

0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.360
<v Speaker 2>to you know. The only thing that has to connect

0:33:58.400 --> 0:34:01.440
<v Speaker 2>together is one green to the next tea. But I

0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:03.479
<v Speaker 2>don't have to work my way back around to that

0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:04.200
<v Speaker 2>first point.

0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:07.640
<v Speaker 3>It's a very different thing.

0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:13.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, I had a similar after the President's Cup.

0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:16.719
<v Speaker 1>I started thinking about, hey, where can we have the

0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:20.120
<v Speaker 1>Presidence Cup in the United States? That would provide a

0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:26.040
<v Speaker 1>really you know, compelling golf course in the same vein same.

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:26.719
<v Speaker 3>Time a year.

0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 1>And I kept landing and the place I landed on

0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:37.200
<v Speaker 1>was stream Song, but as a composite course. And then

0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:41.880
<v Speaker 1>I put together like I have like twenty different and

0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:44.160
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't stop doing it. One day and I felt

0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:45.920
<v Speaker 1>like I would just I would get here and I'd

0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:47.640
<v Speaker 1>be like, well, I could go this way or this way,

0:34:47.680 --> 0:34:50.719
<v Speaker 1>and then you's it was really a fun experiment.

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:55.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, a couple of those exists, not because we were

0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:59.560
<v Speaker 2>trying to plan a tournament, but you know, very early

0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>in that process, you know, Bill had already started working

0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:07.040
<v Speaker 2>on routings, and at the time the the client wanted

0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:09.280
<v Speaker 2>one of only one of us to build a golf

0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:12.040
<v Speaker 2>course where we did, and the other one of us

0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:16.640
<v Speaker 2>to build another golf course somewhere else on the property,

0:35:17.239 --> 0:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, possibly where the Black course was, possibly where

0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:24.279
<v Speaker 2>the hotel is, and there was one other site two

0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:28.640
<v Speaker 2>or three miles away from those two. And you know,

0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:32.319
<v Speaker 2>Bill and I both, I mean, the land that we

0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:37.879
<v Speaker 2>ultimately built on was so dramatic, and you know it

0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:41.080
<v Speaker 2>was it was so natural for building a golf course

0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:47.239
<v Speaker 2>in its re configured mind state that we both were

0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:50.399
<v Speaker 2>attracted to that right away. You know, Bill had tried

0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:53.759
<v Speaker 2>to just lay out eighteen holes over it, and you know,

0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:57.560
<v Speaker 2>you were giving up a lot of other good holes.

0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:00.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, there was clearly enough room on it for

0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:03.920
<v Speaker 2>twenty seven really cool holes. We weren't sure that there

0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 2>was enough room for thirty six holes, but we sort

0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:11.320
<v Speaker 2>of agreed between ourselves, you know, if we work together,

0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:13.399
<v Speaker 2>we could probably figure out how to make thirty six

0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>holes here. And the client, rich Mack, was concerned that,

0:36:18.560 --> 0:36:22.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, we would crowd each other too much and

0:36:23.080 --> 0:36:25.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, and spoil it somehow, and we were like,

0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:26.320
<v Speaker 2>don't worry.

0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:28.280
<v Speaker 3>About that, just let us work on it for a while.

0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.200
<v Speaker 2>And see if we can put put it together between us.

0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:33.640
<v Speaker 2>So that's how we did it. We you know, we

0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:35.840
<v Speaker 2>tried to fit thirty six holes in. They're the best

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 2>we could without you know, without having to go into

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.719
<v Speaker 2>the tougher land or do things that really required a

0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:48.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of earth moving, and we couldn't quite do it.

0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:49.520
<v Speaker 3>We could only come up.

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:52.239
<v Speaker 2>With like thirty or thirty two holes that really fit.

0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:57.800
<v Speaker 2>And eventually Bill went and walked where the first six

0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:02.440
<v Speaker 2>holes are on the red course. Part of it hadn't

0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:05.440
<v Speaker 2>been mine. The second and third holes that was just

0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:08.239
<v Speaker 2>a flat boggy stretch that they were gonna mind that

0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:11.960
<v Speaker 2>they've still had a mine, and he just kind of

0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:13.600
<v Speaker 2>sucked it up and said, you know, if we did

0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:16.240
<v Speaker 2>if we did this little this loop of six holes

0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:18.920
<v Speaker 2>out here, then then we can make the rest of

0:37:19.000 --> 0:37:23.319
<v Speaker 2>it work pretty easily. And I said, okay, And and

0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:25.879
<v Speaker 2>we came up with that routing of the red and blue.

0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:27.640
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we came up with the routing of

0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:30.560
<v Speaker 2>the red and blue having not decided which one of

0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:35.040
<v Speaker 2>us would do which course that came at the very end,

0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:37.000
<v Speaker 2>and neither one of us really wanted to be the

0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:38.000
<v Speaker 2>guy who.

0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Decided, Yeah, that's that's one of the cool, cool projects

0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:46.840
<v Speaker 1>of the modern era for sure. So we uh, we

0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:49.880
<v Speaker 1>covered a lot. We're we're gonna we're gonna pack this

0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:54.160
<v Speaker 1>up for the day. And thanks again obviously for the time,

0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:59.920
<v Speaker 1>and really excited hopefully the the Maha project permits for

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:02.759
<v Speaker 1>out because it would be a really neat, neat and

0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 1>different golf course than we've seen.

0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:08.200
<v Speaker 3>I think we're gonna get there.

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:10.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's gonna ta It's not an easy site

0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:13.279
<v Speaker 2>to build on either, as you as you probably guess,

0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:17.080
<v Speaker 2>it's rocky, so it's gonna take you know, if we

0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 2>get started on it this spring like we want, it's

0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 2>still going to take two years to build in, a

0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:25.840
<v Speaker 2>year to grow in. So it's twenty twenty three probably

0:38:25.880 --> 0:38:29.560
<v Speaker 2>before anybody's playing golf there, but hopefully it's worth the way.

0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:32.560
<v Speaker 2>It's a really different thing, and thanks for coming to

0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Traverse City. It's nice to do a home game every

0:38:36.719 --> 0:38:37.239
<v Speaker 2>once in a while.

0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:49.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah,