1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy Nee Wilson, 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frying. We closed out our episode on 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: Jim Thorpe this week, uh, three part episode which no 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: matter how we have arranged it, which at this point 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: as we were recording it, we don't know, it's gonna 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: be a little awkward. We'll figure it out. Yeah, two 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: episodes will be in one week, in one episode in 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: a different week, and we don't really exactly know where 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: that's going to fall. But by the time folks are 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: hearing this, it will be obvious it will have fallen. Um. 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: I mentioned this in the episode, But I really just 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: find the story of what to do with Jim Thorpe's 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: remains after his death to be so heartbreaking because I mean, 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: I've seen families go through just ranching to say, visions 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: about like how to care for a loved one who 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: is in their last days of life, or where they 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: should be buried or how they should be buried, or 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: like some other really fundamentally important part of their last 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: days as a living person, and then what should happen 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: after their death? And then with Jim Thorpe that family 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: dispute is just complicated by all of this history of 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: like federal Indian policy and reservation land and all of 24 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: this stuff coming together. So it's like something that's already 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: just such a sad disagreement within a family, especially since 26 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: it seems like everyone was on of like of the 27 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: same mindset, or that most of them were on the 28 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: same mindset at first and that gradually shifted. Like having 29 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: that then be complicated by something that includes, you know, 30 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: federal Nagar legislation is just so hard and also I 31 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: think really important to talk about because when we've talked 32 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: about Nagara on the show before, we have been talking 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: about remains that like someone's immediate next generation descendants, we're 34 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: not still living a lot of the time, so questions, uh, 35 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: sometimes about what what the next step should be sometimes 36 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: felt a little bit more theoretical, like still critically important 37 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: to the people involved, but not so much a family 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: of brothers and sisters not agreeing with whether their father's 39 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: soul was at peace, which was like part of this Yeah, 40 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: it um, it's I think it's a as you said, 41 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: it's important to talk about because it's it provides a 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: really good, not in the sense of enjoyable, but a 43 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: really strong, illustrative example of how complex this whole thing becomes. UM. 44 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: I had a moment during listener mail for this episode 45 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: while we were talking about cataloging. I had such a 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: flashbag because you know, I worked for UM, a Uni 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: versity library for a decade. As like a pair of 48 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: professional I worked in cataloging and was tight with the 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: A c R two manual UM, and I had just 50 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: that moment of thinking about and reflecting on how libraries 51 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: breakdown UM cataloging and archives, and that's seems in my 52 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: limited experience to be a little more even than other industries, 53 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: which is interesting in terms of the men to women Rachio. Yeah, 54 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: I've read several really interesting articles about fields that were 55 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: regarded as being women's work that became professionalized and then 56 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: became male dominated. And I had not thought at all 57 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: about that the relationship of that too, like these glass 58 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: plates at Harvard and the fact that the people who 59 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: had been curating those plates, Like I was totally thinking 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: about the fact that the people who had been curating 61 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: those plates, uh, like the first one was literally hired 62 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: from being a housekeeper. Like that part I had thought of, 63 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: but I had not really thought so much about as 64 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: the collection progressed and as curation progressed as a field, um, 65 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: how that affected the gender of the people working with 66 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: the collection, um, and what the balance there was like. 67 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: So I was really glad to get that email have 68 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: a chance to talk about it. I also hope that 69 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: people have not found the experience of having a three 70 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: part podcast to be unas um. Like I said at 71 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: the beginning, I was really expecting a two parter when 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: I sat down, and then I had I had a 73 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: completed draft of the whole thing, when I kind of went, oh, man, 74 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: this is this is three. This is three. I remember 75 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: you pining me and telling me how long each of 76 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: your two were, and I was like, oh boy, yeah 77 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: it was. I was like, we're getting into hour long 78 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: episode territory, um, which is you know, once in a 79 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: while they run longer. But I think if we had 80 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: two hour longers back to back one, those get very 81 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: hard to record board because we get very tired. Yeah, 82 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: um too, you know, it just messes with the the 83 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: usual flow a bit. Yeah. Well, and I also felt 84 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: like splitting it into three also let us spend a 85 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: little bit more time on context. Some of it is 86 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: context we've talked about before. Um, like our episodes on 87 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: the Fort Shaw Indian Schoolgirls basketball team and the occupation 88 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: of Alcatraz in particular, have walked through some of the 89 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: same things. But at this point those episodes are also 90 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: well enough in the past that people haven't necessarily heard them. 91 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: People who aren't already familiar with that history or did 92 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: not personally live through that history don't necessarily have it 93 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: all out of top of mind. So UM, having it 94 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: as a three part I thought gave us three really 95 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: nice acts about these phases of Jim Thorpe's life, and 96 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: then also a little bit more time to spend on 97 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: some of the other contextual pieces. Tracy, this week we 98 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: talked about Joel points set and we sure did. The 99 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: first thing I want to do is ask you, and 100 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: you mentioned it to me, I remember if it was 101 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: in the show itself. How did you pronounce point SETI 102 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: are growing up point Setta? Me too, so did my husband. Yeah, 103 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in the South do that. 104 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: Like I though, that was like just how everybody said 105 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: it when I was growing up? Was point Setta? Yeah? Same? Um, 106 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,799 Speaker 1: there is an organization in Atlanta called the Atlanta Radio 107 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: Theater Company. UM that does a I don't I don't 108 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: know if they're doing it this year because of the pandemic, 109 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: but like they have generally done a holiday show that 110 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: includes lots of different Christmas and winter holiday stories. Um, 111 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: and there's one about uh, it's like a fictionalized thing 112 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: about about the point set it. And I don't even 113 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: remember what the what this point of the story is. 114 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: But like the person who does the voice for it 115 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: says point seta in this like very stylized way, and 116 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: so a lot of times when I'm saying point setta 117 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: the way I've always said it, something in my head 118 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: is going points that I love it. I mean I 119 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: did in looking it up. There are people who will 120 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: still say it is perfectly acceptable to pronounce it that way. 121 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: I looked it up before we started, and Miriam Webster 122 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: had points setia elicted is the name. And then I 123 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: can't remember what the it was like non standard exactly, like, well, 124 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: do I want to say my non standard pronunciation that 125 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: I've said my whole life in this episode so that 126 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: we can get emails from people asking why do we 127 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 1: say it wrong? Well, and I will say this as well. 128 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: I even learned spelling of it completely incorrectly growing up. 129 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: Really like, I literally have somewhere in a note in 130 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: a relative's handwriting, who I will not out p O 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: I N T s E T T A point seta. 132 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: There's a T in a place. I didn't expect it 133 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: because it doesn't exist. But it's one of the those 134 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: things where it's not a common enough word that like 135 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: it might necessarily appear on a spelling test for a kid, 136 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: so if you're only getting it from relatives, I spelled 137 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: that thing wrong for years before I actually saw it 138 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: in print somewhere and weight hold the phone. That's amazing. 139 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: I love this story. I will say I love point 140 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: setias so much. Um. When I got married, we were 141 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: very poor and so uh to do our wedding, which 142 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: was in a movie theater, I went to home depot 143 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: and I bought a hundred points setias because they were cheap, 144 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: and we lined the whole theater with them, and then 145 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: as the guests left, they could just pick one and 146 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: take it home with them, And that was like both 147 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: our decor and the favor as a cost cutting measure. 148 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: But I have people who kept those things for years. 149 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if any of them are still alive. 150 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: I also combined decor and favors. It's the easiest thing 151 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: to do both from a just a logistical perspective, and 152 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: it it just prevents wasting cash. Right. We were also 153 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: going to talk about animals. I didn't go super deep 154 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: on the research, but I did see in several places, 155 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: uh nurseries mentioning. Hey, there was this paper that came 156 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: out decades ago that claimed that these were super duper 157 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: poisonous that got propagated everywhere and it's not actually true. 158 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: But I didn't actually hunt down all the science. I 159 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: just saw an awful lot of reputable places going that's 160 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: that's not so true. Yeah. I feel like I had 161 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: heard that long in the past but had since heard 162 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: it and were replaced more like maybe un irritant, right, 163 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: like if your cat likes to eat plants, might not 164 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: be great. Yeah, And even at our wedding, I originally 165 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: wanted point ceddia blossoms like on the serving tables and 166 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: on the cake, and both the cake lady and the 167 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: people doing setup where like you cannot do that. It 168 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: to point us and I was like, oh, okay, okay, Okay, alright, fine, 169 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: but I still love them. This was an eye opener 170 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: of an episode for me. I had not really looked 171 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: deeply at Joel point Set's career. Like I knew he 172 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: was a statesman and had brought the point sidia to 173 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: the US, I did not know that Mexico had an 174 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: entire word degradation for him, um, which I was telling 175 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: a friend of mine who speaks Spanish because she was 176 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: helping me work through some of these, and she had 177 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: not heard it either. It was like, we're using that 178 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: forever going forward, right, I was like, yes, we are. 179 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: I like that plan. Sorry, Joel points at your points 180 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: at tis. I have been to both Charleston and Greenville, 181 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: South Carolina, and I I just it's totally possible that 182 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: I saw various commemorative markers in that statue, but man, 183 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: I have no recollection of it whatsoever. Bump, bump, he 184 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: blocked out. I knew I had sort of a precognition 185 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: that it was going to turn out. Got on everybody's 186 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: nerves in Mexico real bad. So if you would like 187 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: to write to us about how you pronounce point seta 188 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: or point setia, or whether or not you recall seeing 189 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: any Joel points at markers. You can do that at 190 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: History podcast at i heeart radio dot com. We hope 191 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: you have a wonderful weekend, and you can always subscribe 192 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: to the show on the I heart Radio app, but 193 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or anywhere else you listen. Stuff you missed 194 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. 195 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i 196 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 197 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.