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Speaker 1: Taking a Walk.

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Speaker 2: So I started going to New York for sessions, Like

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Speaker 2: my very first recording session was g E. Smith on

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Speaker 2: guitar and Sean Pelton was on drums. It was at

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Speaker 2: the philip Last Studios. And again, you don't have any

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Speaker 2: idea at that time that that's not normal. Later on

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Speaker 2: I realized it wasn't necessarily you know what happens typically,

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Speaker 2: and it was just a golden experience.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Taken a Walk podcast. Music History on

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Speaker 1: Foot joined Buzz Night, your host on this episode with

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Speaker 1: Chevy Smith. Chevy is a producer, a singer, songwriter, and

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Speaker 1: the co founder of a unique music discovery app called

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Speaker 1: The Ultimate Playlist. Let's join Buzz Night and Chevy Smith

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Speaker 1: now on Taking a Walk.

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Speaker 3: Well, Chevy, it's so nice to have you on a

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Speaker 3: virtual edition of Taking a Walk.

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Speaker 4: I feel like walking the streets of Nashville, even though

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Speaker 4: I'm outside of Boston.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're doing that too. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for having me on. And it's fun to take

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Speaker 2: a virtual walk with you. And then when you come

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Speaker 2: to town, we'll have to take an actual actual walk.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of magic season here. The autumn in Nashville

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Speaker 2: is very beautiful.

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Speaker 3: I love it. So tell me about your career background first.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, I come from the performer, artist, songwriter,

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Speaker 2: producer side of things. So I was quite young when

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Speaker 2: I started. I started panop four, but more just like

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Speaker 2: for discipline. You know, my parents just I could either

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Speaker 2: be in dance or piano, and I chose dance, and

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Speaker 2: then they were like, we can't afford that, so you're

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Speaker 2: gonna play piano, and that ended up being very fortuitous.

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Speaker 2: Started playing guitar around ten, just kind of just had

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Speaker 2: a propensity for it, loved it, And I grew up

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Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in a

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Speaker 2: wheat field in Kansa, and so I would ride my

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Speaker 2: horse around by myself. It was very like idyllic, and

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Speaker 2: we'd go for a swim in the pond and I'd

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Speaker 2: make up a song, and fortunately I kind of had

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Speaker 2: the foundation to put music to that. So kind of

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Speaker 2: as early as I was interested in music, it never

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Speaker 2: really occurred to me that I wouldn't make my own.

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course, was a huge fan of you know,

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Speaker 2: my mom played a ton of like Linda Ronstad and

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Speaker 2: Emmy Lou and kind of that beautiful you know, Troubadour

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Speaker 2: Am Radio situation, so really really wonderful influences. But started

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Speaker 2: writing quite early, and you know, it was definitely pre digital,

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Speaker 2: and so I had two clock radios at home and

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Speaker 2: we kind of like dug back and forth. I was

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Speaker 2: trying to do my own like four track recorder because

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Speaker 2: I didn't have one, but I knew I wanted to

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Speaker 2: layer downs and that really I kind of made whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, the like Wilderness version of a mixtape was,

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Speaker 2: and that found its way to a producer in New

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Speaker 2: York named John Dinicola, who actually ended up being super

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Speaker 2: legitimate is still a great friend and you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of guiding force in my life today. He was coming

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Speaker 2: off the success of the Dirty Dancing soundtrack. He wrote

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Speaker 2: Time of My Life and Hungry Eyes and was working

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Speaker 2: with a band called Kara's Flowers at the time, who

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Speaker 2: then became a Room five. And so he was just

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Speaker 2: profoundly generous in the fact that he didn't steamroll over me,

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Speaker 2: even though he had all the experience and I was,

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Speaker 2: you know, a fourteen year old kid from the middle

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Speaker 2: of Kansas. At first, he would record me to a

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Speaker 2: click and then would take a back and build tracks

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Speaker 2: and that started getting interest because this was still the

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Speaker 2: traditional label world, you know. And actually from that Rosemary Carrol,

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Speaker 2: who was still still is a big attorney in the

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Speaker 2: rock world, heard that and she started, you know, she

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Speaker 2: called and wanted to help and represent me at the time,

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Speaker 2: and so the songs really kind of were what garnered

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Speaker 2: the attention. And then also, you're just crazy fearless at fourteen,

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Speaker 2: you don't know, you know, like you're like, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is of course, this is happening this way, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I was just incredibly I looked back, just bold

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Speaker 2: in the ways that I as a kid, you just

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Speaker 2: ask for what you want. And I wanted to do

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Speaker 2: this so bad I couldn't think straight, you know, like

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Speaker 2: my whole world was just this chiron of like songs

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Speaker 2: running above my head that I would like reach up

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Speaker 2: and grab and you know, and create. And so I

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Speaker 2: started going to New York for sessions, Like my very

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Speaker 2: first recording session was G. E. Smith on guitar and

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Speaker 2: Sean Pelton was on drums. It was at the Philip

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Speaker 2: Glass Studios. And again, you don't have any idea at

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Speaker 2: that time that that's not normal. Later on I realized

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Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily you know what happens typically, and it

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Speaker 2: was just a golden experience. I mean it was I

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Speaker 2: learned so much. Everybody was so nice, Like Sean Pelton

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Speaker 2: teached me or taught me to eat sushi, like you know,

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Speaker 2: he was from Missouri and so he was like, I

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Speaker 2: bet you from campus. I've never had had sushi. So

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Speaker 2: it's just kind of was like this time of discovery.

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Speaker 2: And I was really also fortunate because obviously I was

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Speaker 2: like this kid, and they were all I was working with,

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Speaker 2: primarily you know, older men in their like thirties and forties,

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Speaker 2: but they really all were very protective and not you know,

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Speaker 2: any of the stories that you hear like that wasn't

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Speaker 2: wasn't my path through it necessarily. I really luck doubt

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Speaker 2: and had these incredible educators and and kind of protective

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Speaker 2: folks looking out for me. And we started getting interest

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Speaker 2: and so that that project was passed to Nashville, which

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Speaker 2: was just kind of coming out of this. Like I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously it's always been like songwriter Mecca, but there was

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Speaker 2: still a path of like Mary Shape and Carpenter and

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Speaker 2: Lucinda Williams and and kind of this I guess what

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Speaker 2: would now be Americana was uh was kind of more

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Speaker 2: of a mainstream there for a second, and Universal was

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Speaker 2: interested and they'd had all the success with Shanaia, and

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, bubbly and smiley and and you know,

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Speaker 2: like there was a real propensity to kind of want

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Speaker 2: to want to take it a real mainstream direction, which

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Speaker 2: now as an adult, I I totally get, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it probably was was the right, uh, I guess

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Speaker 2: instinct on their part, But I was like, I'm brooding,

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Speaker 2: I'm Patti Griffin, I'm you know, like I thought that

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Speaker 2: I was so like heavy and you know and wanted

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Speaker 2: to to kind of do my own thing. And so

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Speaker 2: the Sky Frank Calari was starting Lost Highway at the time,

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Speaker 2: so like we flirted around with doing something with that

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Speaker 2: and ultimately ended up doing an independent record with my

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Speaker 2: publisher at the time and they let me produce it

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Speaker 2: and kind of got to go in and at that time,

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Speaker 2: you could you could hire, you know, I had Dan

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Speaker 2: Dugmore come in and play on all of my sessions

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Speaker 2: and would I would hire him as a leader so

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Speaker 2: that I get him for like six hours in an

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Speaker 2: overdob session and then just like thrill him about heart

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Speaker 2: like a wheel or you know, like I was just

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Speaker 2: kind of in heaven as a like little audio file

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Speaker 2: who just wanted to be in a studio. And so

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Speaker 2: the people that I worked with at the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: Steve Marcantonio had been in on Beatles sessions, and the

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Speaker 2: main engineer producer who really like helped me out and

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Speaker 2: let me sit in on so many sessions with the

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Speaker 2: guy Chip Matthews who's now having crazy success. He produced

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Speaker 2: all the Luke Holmbs stuff, So you know, he's like,

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Speaker 2: it's just I really lucked out on my path to

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Speaker 2: really be able to spend time with so many geniuses

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Speaker 2: and you know, people who are very generous with teaching

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Speaker 2: me things. So I made a couple of records. I

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Speaker 2: toured colleges mostly. I would play like over two hundred

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Speaker 2: shows a year, which you couldn't have told me anything

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Speaker 2: with better at the time. You know, I would go

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Speaker 2: play colleges and then I would open shows, like you know,

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Speaker 2: my agents at the time would put me on the

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Speaker 2: front of a run of shows of Ti McGraw or

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Speaker 2: like can you Chesney, and like these country guys I did,

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Speaker 2: Like I opened for Shaggy on a number of like

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Speaker 2: on the run. You know, it was like looking back,

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Speaker 2: you're clear, You're like they had nobody knew kind of

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Speaker 2: what I was doing, including me. I just was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, very ambitious and willing and excited about it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I did that and kind of figured out that

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Speaker 2: I probably wasn't heading or veering more in the direction

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Speaker 2: of mainstream country at the time. And I really was

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Speaker 2: lit up and fired up about Los Angeles. So I

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Speaker 2: kind of cut ties here and moved out there, and

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Speaker 2: you know, you look back and you're like, I was

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Speaker 2: probably a little bit like reckless or a little more

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Speaker 2: dramatic than I needed to be. But I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, going out there to do the thing, and

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Speaker 2: and had had some good things happened right off the bat,

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Speaker 2: but then had kind of some injuries that I won't

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Speaker 2: get into, but had had kind of some barriers that

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Speaker 2: really changed things, and so I ended up having to

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Speaker 2: go through a series of surgeries that meant I couldn't

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Speaker 2: go on the road. And it was like a really

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Speaker 2: kind of one eighty time for me. I went from

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Speaker 2: really being bold to really like not feeling confident or

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Speaker 2: you know, capable or strong to do these things, and

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Speaker 2: so I kind of Withdrew and just I also at

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Speaker 2: that time was twenty five, and I've been working since

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Speaker 2: I was thirteen, you know, on my own volition. My

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Speaker 2: parents had nothing to do with it. They made me

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Speaker 2: emancipate to sign any contracts because they're like, you're a kid,

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Speaker 2: you don't need to work, you know, like you just

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Speaker 2: need to like, you know, play your sports or play

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Speaker 2: your guitar and enjoy school. But I was the one

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Speaker 2: that really really pushed it, and you know, by twenty five,

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Speaker 2: I was I was kind of burnt, you know, like

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Speaker 2: I was just exhausted and a little you know, disillusioned

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Speaker 2: by the whole thing. And I ended up moving up

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Speaker 2: to Tipanga Canyon in just you know, north of LA

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Speaker 2: and it really was this beautiful, like calmness that I

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Speaker 2: hadn't had in a long time. And I started teaching

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Speaker 2: guitar just to make money and just kind of didn't

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Speaker 2: do any shows. Just was trying to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 2: what the next I guess turn would look like. And

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Speaker 2: that ended up turning into this beautiful kind of inevertently

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Speaker 2: created this education program that focused on songwriting, and so

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Speaker 2: we had like one hundred and twenty girls across to

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Speaker 2: LA and this program writing songs sometimes based upon poems,

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Speaker 2: and it really was just kind of this you know,

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Speaker 2: really innocent, just beautiful era of life where it was

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Speaker 2: I was able to reconnect with who I had started

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Speaker 2: out being, you know, wanting to write songs. But within

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Speaker 2: that time, I started getting contacted to produce because I'd

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Speaker 2: produced my own stuff, and I think just certain people

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Speaker 2: had kind of earmarked that maybe I had a you know,

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Speaker 2: an interest in that, and I started producing stuff for

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Speaker 2: like TV promos and and you know, trailers and those

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Speaker 2: sorts of things because I could, you know, I just

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Speaker 2: had like a little setup like this and ended up

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Speaker 2: kind of having a fun journey through that and and

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Speaker 2: that really suited me at the time because it was

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Speaker 2: so anonymous, you know, you just kind of get a

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Speaker 2: call to create something and created that afternoon and send

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Speaker 2: it out and see if it worked. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I kind of ended up working with some people

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Speaker 2: that I had really admired for a long time. You know,

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Speaker 2: like there was this producer up there named jack Knife

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Speaker 2: Lee who he and his family have now become some

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Speaker 2: of my dearest friends. But they, you know, I ended

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Speaker 2: up being able to kind of him be a mentor

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Speaker 2: and watch how he worked, and he'd produced some of

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Speaker 2: my favorite records of all time. Or just across the

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Speaker 2: river was Ryan Oliate, who was who did the last

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Speaker 2: like five petty records, And so I would go over

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Speaker 2: there and he was remastering the Wildflowers album, so he

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Speaker 2: had all the stems. So we would just sit in

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Speaker 2: there and he'd just let me listen to just like

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Speaker 2: Feroni's just snare on. You don't know how it feels,

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Speaker 2: you know, and just like it was for me, it

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Speaker 2: like nothing could have been, but it was a heavenly

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Speaker 2: wonderful time. So yeah, so I just kind of ended

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Speaker 2: up more behind the scenes and kind of just being

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Speaker 2: a conduit. I love working with younger artists. A lot

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Speaker 2: of times female artists who are maybe have been like

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Speaker 2: pushed and pulled in a lot of directions somehow end

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Speaker 2: up with me because I think I can kind of

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Speaker 2: relate in a way that you only can if you've

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Speaker 2: been there. And so yeah, so I've kind of just

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Speaker 2: built this. It's a pretty low key, you know, music

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Speaker 2: career so far, but it seems to keep building and

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Speaker 2: going down these little tributaries and it's fun.

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Speaker 3: How did the tributary get created of Ultimate Playlist.

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Speaker 2: Ultimate Playlist was born out of necessity and just curiosity,

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Speaker 2: to be honest. So I'd started a development an arts

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Speaker 2: development company with my now business partner, the brilliant man

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Speaker 2: named Khalie Jones, who is a Stanford educated lawyer. He

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Speaker 2: was one of the first and people to own an

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Speaker 2: e sports team, like a really innovative thinker, and he

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Speaker 2: also had a background in hip hop and has an

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Speaker 2: incredible writer himself. And so we had partnered up because

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Speaker 2: I knew that I wanted kind of a business structure

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Speaker 2: to this artist development that I was doing, and I

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Speaker 2: thought he was just a fantastic resource to offer to

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Speaker 2: the artists that we were working with, and just has

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Speaker 2: so many innovative ideas. But as we would kind of

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Speaker 2: finish certain songs and want to put them out, we

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Speaker 2: face the same quandary that everybody faces of like, oh wow,

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Speaker 2: there's at that time there were like forty thousand songs

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Speaker 2: a day going to Spotify. Now it's well over one

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand songs a day, and just that whole thing

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Speaker 2: of your looking at this kid that made their song

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Speaker 2: and it's really good, and you're like, well, I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure how we're going to get this heard. And it

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Speaker 2: was such a different process than even when I'd come

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Speaker 2: out with my indie records, And so as we looked

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Speaker 2: at the different options of kind of how to try

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Speaker 2: to promote, we came up with, you know, there's like

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Speaker 2: playlists pushing, and that is kind of a little opaque

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Speaker 2: and can be a little risky, and it's not, you know,

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Speaker 2: something that we wanted to necessarily spend our money on.

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Speaker 2: And I think, like, offhand, at one point, I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I feel more comfortable if we went down

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Speaker 2: to Staples Center during a Billie Eilish concert and just

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Speaker 2: ask these girls to listen to thirty seconds of the song.

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Speaker 2: You know, if we could just get them to listen,

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Speaker 2: I think our retention rate would be higher than five percent,

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Speaker 2: and I think we'd get like this many, like actual

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Speaker 2: dedicated fans. And you know, he certainly agreed. And at

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Speaker 2: the time, he was doing consulting work for the Arizona

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Speaker 2: Lottery and knew about some of the pain points that

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Speaker 2: they had in offering online games or mobile games as

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Speaker 2: well as reaching a younger audience, and so while he

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Speaker 2: and I were working around with gamification and kind of

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Speaker 2: taking that, you know, Billie Eilish hand everybody a dollar bill.

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Speaker 2: We kind of took that the step further and we're like,

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Speaker 2: why would we hide the ball, Like, if people are

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Speaker 2: paying for promotion, why would those promotion dollars be stopped

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Speaker 2: at a middleman? What if they just passed through and

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Speaker 2: just we didn't hide the ball, We didn't pretend like

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Speaker 2: this wasn't paid promotion, but really offered that incentive to

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Speaker 2: the end listener. And that was really the utility that

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Speaker 2: we kept coming back to. And he knew that the

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Speaker 2: lottery would have a need for that utility as well,

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Speaker 2: that for them to gain the users and the younger

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Speaker 2: user base and to be in that mobile space was

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Speaker 2: worth it to them in the same way that it

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Speaker 2: would be advantageous to an artist to have that listener

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Speaker 2: incentivized to give their song a long listen. So in

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Speaker 2: a world of TikTok of six second listens, this actually

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Speaker 2: incentivizes the player or the listener of who is participating

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Speaker 2: on the app. They get rewarded more the longer they listen.

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Speaker 2: So the longer they give that song a chance, the

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Speaker 2: more chances they have to win one of the cash prizes,

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Speaker 2: So it's not pretending that that there's not an exchange involved,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I think I mean, certainly your background

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Speaker 2: in radio, you know, we all know like there's there's

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Speaker 2: always an exchange involved, and it's not even a dishonest one.

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Speaker 2: It's just like that's business, you know. And so we

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Speaker 2: really kind of just got excited about the idea because

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Speaker 2: it's something we would have wanted to use, and that

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Speaker 2: was that was about as as simple as it gets.

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Speaker 3: Do you see applications around what you're building here that

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Speaker 3: could apply to the traditional radio business?

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Speaker 2: I mean, we actually are our licensing category categorization is

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Speaker 2: streaming internet radio, so we're just incentivized, like we're the

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Speaker 2: same as we're not not interactive streaming radio, so we're

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Speaker 2: the same as Pandora. So it really is just incentivized radio,

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Speaker 2: and it's not you know, we were just issued a

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Speaker 2: patent for the utility, so there is something very novel there.

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Speaker 2: But we also recognize that the tail is as old

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Speaker 2: as time. This is the same as listen to the

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Speaker 2: third song and be the fifth caller, you know, I

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Speaker 2: mean that you were We've always been incentivizing people to listen.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was listened through commercials, so that you know,

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Speaker 2: the station gets paid and then that's passed on through

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Speaker 2: This is just really a directness that we can offer

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Speaker 2: because of the technology coal age we live in. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that the it just wouldn't have been

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Speaker 2: practical to run a contest like this without the tokenization

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Speaker 2: and the way that we're able to offer it within

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Speaker 2: our app. But it certainly builds upon and plays upon

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Speaker 2: it as a nod to traditional radio and kind of

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Speaker 2: what we were up loving about it, which was, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I think I taped every favorite song I ever

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Speaker 2: had off of the radio, and you know, I was

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Speaker 2: always winning concert tickets or trying to you know, with

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Speaker 2: the caller things. So this is I'm of the same concept.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of the Taking a

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Speaker 1: Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.

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Speaker 4: You know, frankly, the radio business needs to take a

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Speaker 4: look at itself in the mirror and utilize new opportunities

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Speaker 4: of technology and innovation.

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Speaker 2: Well, I love hearing you say that. That's one of

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Speaker 2: the Uh. We we literally just had our patent published

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Speaker 2: last week. It was actually issued in August. But as

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Speaker 2: we go to build upon that. That's you know, we

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Speaker 2: we certainly see a lot of use cases for the

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Speaker 2: underlying utility, and Ultimate Playlist serves as a use case

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Speaker 2: and an example. But you know, you look at the

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Speaker 2: TV streamers and like market share is all tapped out,

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Speaker 2: you know, as many people who can afford as many

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Speaker 2: subscriptions everybody has them. You know, there's no at least

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Speaker 2: in the US, there's no people to go get who

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Speaker 2: don't already have access to Netflix or to Hulu or whoever.

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Speaker 2: And so as streamers in television and podcasting in music

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Speaker 2: obviously start looking at ways to leverage technology to get

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Speaker 2: more market share, we feel they're probably going to look

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Speaker 2: to gamification and look to incentivize listening or watching or

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Speaker 2: you know, this attention economy that we hear about this

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Speaker 2: this really kind of puts a format and a payoff

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Speaker 2: structure to that. And so you know, we're really hopeful

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Speaker 2: that we're going to be able to take this technology

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Speaker 2: to many other platforms and hopefully have it you know translate.

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Speaker 3: So, as you think about innovation and think about your

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Speaker 3: process in innovation, what is failure taught you about growing

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Speaker 3: this this brand?

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Speaker 2: Oh man, let me think for a moment. I mean

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Speaker 2: there's obviously technology and working like leading a development company now,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I have engineers that I'm talking with

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Speaker 2: all day every day. The lottery doesn't shut down on weekends,

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Speaker 2: so you know, on a Saturday night at ten thirty,

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Speaker 2: I might be working with an artist and I duck

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Speaker 2: out to go talk to my you know, programmers, and

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Speaker 2: so it's it's taught me that everything is iterative, you know,

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Speaker 2: Like we in the music industry, there's like once it's vinal,

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Speaker 2: it's final, you know, and you have this kind of endpoint.

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Speaker 2: With technology, there's no setting and going like you as

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Speaker 2: soon as we get the performance of the app optimized,

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Speaker 2: Apple will change one permission setting and we'll have to

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Speaker 2: go and iterate around that. And so there's just so

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Speaker 2: many levels and so many frequencies that have to blend

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Speaker 2: well at the same time. So I think it if

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Speaker 2: you're striving to be a perfectionist or striving for this

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Speaker 2: endpoint where you're on top of the mountain and you're

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Speaker 2: like I've did it, like it's perfect, Like you're going

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Speaker 2: to be very very disappointed. And I think I'm in

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Speaker 2: life in general, that's just always a valuable lesson to

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Speaker 2: know that, like it's iterative, we're improving, we're trying to

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Speaker 2: make it as great as possible. I think the other

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Speaker 2: thing that, you know, the the failure, the definition of

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Speaker 2: failure is a very hard thing for me to understand now,

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Speaker 2: Like it's almost like I can't I look back at

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Speaker 2: things that I thought were failures at the time and

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Speaker 2: they don't warrant that label now, you know it was like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, that was like that just bumped me into

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Speaker 2: a different lane, or oh, that's where I learned about

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Speaker 2: how to do wireframes that turned out to be really useful,

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Speaker 2: or like oh that, you know, it's I think already

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Speaker 2: I'm just seeing the beautiful path through it all and

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Speaker 2: just knowing that feeling something as a failure at the

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Speaker 2: time is a really impermanent thing.

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Speaker 3: Who taught you about resilience and who taught you about leadership?

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, resilience. I think it is as deep in

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Speaker 2: my bones as my morrow. You know, like my grandfather,

401
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Speaker 2: my dad's dad was born in a brothel and he

402
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Speaker 2: was never knew his father. He did not have a

403
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Speaker 2: name until he was eight years old, and was the

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Speaker 2: most joyful, ambitious man there could be. You know, and

405
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Speaker 2: so I think having so many and he's just one

406
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Speaker 2: of you know, my family are like they're farmers, they're carpenters,

407
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Speaker 2: they're people who build things. There are people who plant

408
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Speaker 2: things and then you wait and you put in the

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Speaker 2: work and you're steadfast and nobody. I didn't come from

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Speaker 2: a you know, showbiz like you better like be shiny

411
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Speaker 2: and that means success sort of background. I remember the

412
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Speaker 2: first like, I won some contest and the prize was

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Speaker 2: I got to sing on the Grand Ole Opry. And

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Speaker 2: I remember before we walked in, my dad being like, now,

415
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Speaker 2: we are not people who are particularly impressed by fame

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Speaker 2: and all of this. And I remember, because I was

417
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Speaker 2: kind of a smart being, like, well, speak for yourself.

418
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Speaker 2: I am so impressed by this. I'm dazzled, you know.

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Speaker 2: But like that always stuck with me that my family

420
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Speaker 2: does not They don't. They want me to be happy,

421
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Speaker 2: you know, they want to see me win, but there

422
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Speaker 2: are like there is no achievement or sash I could

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Speaker 2: wear around you know, my body that would make them

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Speaker 2: love me more or less, you know, and there's they

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Speaker 2: just don't quantify it as that at all. They are

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Speaker 2: like go hard and what you believe in at the

427
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Speaker 2: time that success. So within that resilience, it's just like, well, like,

428
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Speaker 2: what are my options like if I if it's not perfect,

429
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Speaker 2: do you quit? No, Like I don't. I don't have

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Speaker 2: that kind of I don't have anything to fall back on,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the in the sense of like there's

432
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: no like nobody's coming to save me because I don't

433
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: need to, you know, like you don't need to be saved,

434
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: like you're fine, just keep keep walking, like keep you know,

435
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 2: going out what it is, and and it's at the

436
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 2: end of time you you pass and you didn't, like

437
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: again stand on top of that mountain, like it doesn't

438
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: matter the hell of bean's worth a difference, you know,

439
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: like no, like were you kind? You know, did you

440
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: have integrity? That sort of thing. So I think the

441
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: resilience part is just like keep going, like enjoy your life,

442
00:27:54,040 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: don't uh Like success is the getting back to the resilience.

443
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 2: As far as leadership, I think it's all these fantastic

444
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: people I was able to work with when I was young.

445
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: You know, I look back and they were all history makers.

446
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: You know. My first publisher was Celia Frohlig, who was

447
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: one of the first women in Nashville to run a

448
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: major She ran EMI Publishing, and she made so many songwriters'

449
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: careers and did it you know, Dolly Parton style and

450
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 2: orange heels and just being you know, she wasn't she

451
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: didn't alter how she conducted herself for the business, like

452
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: the business came to her and she just was a

453
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: true individual, you know. Same. I think as far as

454
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: producing records, Jack Knife Lee, I've learned a ton, you know,

455
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: from from him, and he works with obviously, you know,

456
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: the U two's of the world, and these really like

457
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: strong you know, like them bands, and but knows how

458
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: to like guide them with a grace, you know, and

459
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: how to get the end result they want. There's a

460
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: friend of mine named Troy Valhoffer who runs one of

461
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: the biggest staging companies, like production in the world. You know,

462
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: they do all the staging for Metallica or the Chili

463
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: Peppers and these you know, huge like undertakings. And just

464
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: watching how like his excitement and the fact that he

465
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: cares so much about the details and the pulling off

466
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: the big circus, you know, and kind of seeing how

467
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: all these people have been true individuals and them being

468
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: true to themselves and being excited when they're excited, dressing

469
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: the way they want, you know, kind of following their

470
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: own instincts. I think has impacted whatever leadership style I

471
00:29:59,560 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: might have.

472
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: So, where do you see the future of music and

473
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 3: technology down the road? And where do you see in

474
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: that road where Ultimate Playlist fits in?

475
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, the future of music and technology, I think

476
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: it's it's exciting because there's just going to be infinitely

477
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: more music made, you know, And I just for the

478
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: like wellness of the world as a whole. If we're

479
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: all kind of have access to creative tools and outlets,

480
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: I think that results in a net positive, better world,

481
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: you know. So I think on a macro level that's

482
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: very exciting. In terms of music, I think we're just

483
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: becoming it's becoming more fragmented. I actually had a discussion

484
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: with my friend Jay Knowles, who is a brilliant song

485
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: and he was down in New Orleans working on this

486
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: project that I was producing last week, and we were

487
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: having this discussion about like a certain artist and we

488
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: were like, is she famous or is she not? Like

489
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: do we just know about her? Does like the world

490
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: know about her? And we realized, you know, we were

491
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: talking about how there's just such a niche, you know,

492
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: like you can be a huge TikTok star and somebody

493
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: who listens to radio doesn't know you exist, but there's

494
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: still an economy for you. And I think that's what's

495
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: really exciting. Is there where once there were maybe two lanes,

496
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: now it is a sixteen lane freeway, and you can

497
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: kind of mix and match to your strength how you're

498
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: going to conduct your career within that. So I think

499
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: there's a tremendous amount of opportunity. I think that there's

500
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: going to be less superstars just inherently, like the economy

501
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 2: cannot support they're being as many as there once was.

502
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: I think we're going to have a lot more kind

503
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: of what would be considered now mid level stars, and

504
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: I love that. I mean, I want a middle class

505
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 2: of artists. Again, is a great economy to support. So

506
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,719
Speaker 2: within that Ultimate Playlist, hopefully we continue to grow and

507
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: become a resource for growing that sort of career. You know,

508
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: one of the things that we offer when an artist

509
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: chooses to have their song on Ultimate Playlist, they pay

510
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: a very affordable small fee to have the appearance on

511
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: the playlist. And again that money passes through, so their

512
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: potential fans are the ones rewarded by that investment. In turn,

513
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: they get a data set back, so they're able to

514
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: really understand how their song is performing. And some of

515
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: the streamers are not incentivized to give that information to

516
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: the artist or to the manager. So knowing that we

517
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: can provide them with a data set that helps them

518
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: make smarter decisions or decisions that will advantage them in touring. Perhaps,

519
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: you know, if they see their songs doing really well

520
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: in the Southeast with you know, men between the ages

521
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: of thirty and fifty, like they're going to plan a

522
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: tour slightly different with that information. It would be cost

523
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: prohibitive for them to go just independently commission that study.

524
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: So what we're really able to do is give data

525
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: and also present them to real, live, human fans. You

526
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: know this is there is not a bot farm in

527
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: Scandinavia that is accounting for the promotional streams on our platform.

528
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: It is us citizens who could potentially buy a hard

529
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: ticket and come, you know to your show. So we

530
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: just really want to you know, be the Levi's or

531
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: the picks and Axes and the gold Rush, you know,

532
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: and really be a tool that is artists friendly, that

533
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: really supports the working class artists and gives them access

534
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: to the same tools that major artists with huge teams

535
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: would have.

536
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 3: Well, your story and your work is very inspiring, and

537
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 3: thank you. I could promise you when.

538
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 4: This publishes, I'll be hearing from people telling me that

539
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 4: we're either in the business or thinking of the business.

540
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 4: I know for a fact i'll be I'll be getting

541
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 4: that feed back. You're so kind and I'm so grateful

542
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 4: that you took the time to be on Taking a Walk.

543
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. It's so reciprocated. Thank you for the

544
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: work that you do. It is so when I'm out

545
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: taking a walk, I've been listening to you, and I

546
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: think that it's such a profoundly exciting time that we

547
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: can get this kind of education and insight and such

548
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: an easy and beautiful, you know, well well curated format.

549
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: So thank you for including me and for including Olden

550
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 2: the playlist.

551
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a

552
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: Walk Podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends

553
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking

554
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

555
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: and wherever you get your podcasts,