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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. My name's Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we are bringing you a

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Speaker 2: vault episode of Weird House Cinema today. This is our

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Speaker 2: episode on Mad Love from the year nineteen thirty five,

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Speaker 2: originally published on November thirteenth, twenty twenty. It's Peter Lorie.

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Speaker 2: It's a weird, crazy costume with a brace and welding

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Speaker 2: goggles and an awesome hat using the This has hand

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Speaker 2: transplants in it, doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: This one's nuts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. This is a wild movie. It is a weird

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Speaker 1: movie starring one of the all time great weird actors.

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Speaker 1: So in celebration of spring break, here it is.

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Speaker 3: The debut of Sausage Man.

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Speaker 1: That is the debut of Sausage Man.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production

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Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. My name is Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and today we're doing Mad Love.

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Speaker 1: That's right. This is a film that I've been excited

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Speaker 1: to do on Weird House Cinema even before we really

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Speaker 1: formalize what this would be. Now, before we get into

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Speaker 1: the movie. You might be asking, well, what do this be?

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Speaker 1: What is weird house cinema?

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Speaker 2: What you know?

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Speaker 1: You may think of stuff to blow your mind, and

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Speaker 1: of course you think of a science and culture show. Well,

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind remains a science and culture

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Speaker 1: podcast on Tuesdays and Thursdays Friday night is our time

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Speaker 1: to focus on weird films. We may also discuss science

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Speaker 1: and culture on the show, but we put the weird

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Speaker 1: horse ahead of the cart on these days. Think of

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Speaker 1: this show as the haunted hands of a movie podcast

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Speaker 1: grafted onto the body of a science podcast.

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Speaker 3: I like it.

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Speaker 2: So this is a movie that's come up on Stuff

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Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind proper before. I think, maybe did

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Speaker 2: it come up in talking about I don't know, cutting

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Speaker 2: off parts of the body and retaining memories? Or I

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Speaker 2: think it's come up a few times because I had

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Speaker 2: never seen the movie before, but I had seen the

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Speaker 2: trailer for Mad Love, and the trailer is just wonderful

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Speaker 2: because it begins with Peter Lourie sitting on a couch

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Speaker 2: next to a dog that's bigger than he is and

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Speaker 2: getting a phone call from a beautiful actress who wants

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Speaker 2: to tell him how great he is. In the movie

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Speaker 2: that they start in together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those wonderfully weird trailers. It's just

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Speaker 1: so different from anything you see today because it begins

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Speaker 1: with this real, supposedly real life conversation where she's like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: Peter Laurie, I loved you and m tell me about

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Speaker 1: this new film you have coming up, and then you

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Speaker 1: go to a more proper trailer.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And for such a mundane beginning of a trailer,

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Speaker 2: this is a fabulously strange movie, especially for what you're

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Speaker 2: Did it come out in nineteen thirty four?

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Speaker 3: Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Thirty five?

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Speaker 2: I believe, okay, thirty four to thirty five? Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think you're right thirty five, And wow, what a strange film.

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Speaker 2: It's got. One of the strangest things I think we

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Speaker 2: should just sell right up front, is there is a

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Speaker 2: costume that Peter Lourie puts on in the later half

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Speaker 2: of the movie that like, is just hard to believe

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Speaker 2: it comes from the era that it does. It seems

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Speaker 2: very cybernetic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is frightening to behold. But yeah, outside of that,

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Speaker 1: they're just a number of crazy weird elements in this film,

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Speaker 1: and it has at least two eccentric performances, the first

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Speaker 1: and foremost that of Peter LORII, which we'll get into

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Speaker 1: in a minute, but you know, I'll go ahead and

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Speaker 1: do the elevator pitch for this movie, so you know

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Speaker 1: generally what we're talking about here before we get into

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Speaker 1: discussing the players. A gifted but deranged surgeon named doctor

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Speaker 1: Gogel becomes obsessed with horror actress Yvonne Orlock, and when

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Speaker 1: Yvonne's husband, the famous pianist Steven Orlock, suffers a brutal accident,

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Speaker 1: Gogel transplants the hands of an executed killer onto Orlock,

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Speaker 1: and from here everything just spirals into this kind of

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Speaker 1: weird tale of psychological manipulation and delusion.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear just a snip.

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Speaker 2: Of that trailer.

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Speaker 5: I bope have conquered sense? Why can't I conquer love?

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Speaker 5: He shall be shut up when it's I. We are mad,

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Speaker 5: but nobody knows that, yes, each man kills the thing

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Speaker 5: he loves.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that maybe we should start

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Speaker 2: with is the title of this movie, because it doesn't

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Speaker 2: really communicate what this film is really all about, which

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Speaker 2: is like severed hands and crazy psychological manipulation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mad Love is I think kind of an imperfect title.

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Speaker 1: I far prefer the alternative title it sometimes it plays under,

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Speaker 1: and that is The Hands of Warlock. That one also

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Speaker 1: feels somewhat, I don't know, insignificant, given the focus of

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Speaker 1: the film is not on Orlock as much as it

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Speaker 1: is on doctor Gogel Peter Laurie's character. I also think,

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Speaker 1: I mean for modern viewers, there's also this we also

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Speaker 1: have to take in to mind that you have this

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five film that's also called Mad Love that

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Speaker 1: many of us might have remembered. If you didn't see

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Speaker 1: it then then maybe even you just saw the trailers

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Speaker 1: and it starred Chris O'Donnell and Drew Barrymore, and none

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Speaker 1: of the plot elements were discussing here. It's a completely

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Speaker 1: unrelated film. I'm sure it's quite nice. It was directed

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Speaker 1: by Antonio Byrd, who of course directed Ravenous in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine and Priest in nineteen ninety four. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with Peter Lorrie and the Hands of

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Speaker 1: Warlock or anything.

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Speaker 2: I believe it was based on a short story called

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Speaker 2: the Hands of Orlock, right like Lehman do Orlock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this was by French fantasy and horror writer

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Speaker 1: Maurice Renard who lived eighteen seventy five through nineteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not I wasn't really familiar with the works

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Speaker 1: of Renard, but he wrote multiple tales of mad scientists,

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Speaker 1: alien beings, futuristic technology. And this is just one of

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Speaker 1: four screen adaptations of the Hands of Orlock. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't the first. The first was was a nineteen twenty

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Speaker 1: four silent Austrian film starring Conrad Veitt, who many of

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Speaker 1: you may know from the Cabinet of Doctor Caligari or

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Speaker 1: The Man Who Laughs, which even if you haven't seen it,

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Speaker 1: you may have seen a still from it because it's

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Speaker 1: often discussed as being an inspiration for the Joker and

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Speaker 1: the Batman franchise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a really otherworldly, disturbing face in Cabinet of Doctor

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Speaker 2: Kligari does he plays Sezar, the somnambulist.

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Speaker 1: I believe so. I have a hard time remembering the

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Speaker 1: characters in Caligari as much as just the you know,

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Speaker 1: the breathaking visuals. That's a certainly when it comes to

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Speaker 1: silent films worth watching today, that's one of the good ones. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Conrad played Orlock in that, but there was no Gogul. Instead,

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Speaker 1: there was a less essential character, a surgeon named doctor Sarah.

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Speaker 1: So it seems that by the time they end up

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Speaker 1: making Mad Love Like, they've adapted it enough. They've made

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Speaker 1: more of a character out of the surgeon. The surgeon

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Speaker 1: has become the center of the piece, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: just this contemplation of futuristic hand transplantation and how that

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Speaker 1: affects our idea of body and personality integrity. Now, there

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Speaker 1: were a couple of other adaptations of the Hands of Warlock.

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Speaker 1: One was a nineteen sixty French British adaptation that actually

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Speaker 1: had Christopher Lee in it playing Nero the Magician, of

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Speaker 1: which I think was just another I don't know why

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Speaker 1: you would, why you would mess around with the plot

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Speaker 1: that much, but there you go. And then in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty two there was an American adaptation titled Hands of

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Speaker 1: a Stranger. It started nobody in particular. I think the

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Speaker 1: main noteworthy thing about it is that director k newt

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Speaker 1: Arnold also directed Blood Sport and was assistant director on

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Speaker 1: a lot of major films such as Blade Runner and

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Speaker 1: The Godfather Part two.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, Yeah, But the.

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Speaker 1: Basic plot element here of what you could think of

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Speaker 1: is transplant panic and the idea of a transplanted limb

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Speaker 1: altering an individual's personality. You see that showing up in

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Speaker 1: a great many films and TV episodes. Just to name

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Speaker 1: a few, there was the Hand of Fear, an episode

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Speaker 1: of the Tom Baker era Doctor Who series. There's nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one's Body Parts starring Jeff ay Linsey Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Lindsey Duncan and Brad Doriff. And then you'll find various

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Speaker 1: horror anthology episodes. I think that they either have this

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Speaker 1: particular plot of oh now I have the hands of

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Speaker 1: a killer or the hands of a stranger on my body,

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Speaker 1: as well as a related but different form of imberment

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Speaker 1: panic films about disembodied crawling hands. I'd love to come

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Speaker 1: back to crawling hand films in the future.

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Speaker 2: Oh maybe a future October episode. Now, this reminds me

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Speaker 2: of something we talked about not too long ago on

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Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow your mind when we did the episode

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Speaker 2: I Want a New Blood that was all about blood

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Speaker 2: transfusions and how there were experiments in the seventeenth century

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Speaker 2: as far back as the seventeenth century in France to

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Speaker 2: transfuse the blood of animals into humans for various reasons,

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Speaker 2: some of which were not necessarily all that grounded in

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Speaker 2: good science. But for example, you might perform a phlebotomy

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Speaker 2: because of the gallinic humoral theory of the day, you'd

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Speaker 2: bleed a patient to reduce a fever or to reduce

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Speaker 2: mania or something. And then there were some surgeons at

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Speaker 2: the time who said, you know what we should do

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Speaker 2: is take out the bad blood and then replace it

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Speaker 2: with the blood of an animal that has the sort

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Speaker 2: of personality characteristics that we want to put into the person.

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Speaker 2: So if somebody is overly excited, they're suffering from a mania,

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Speaker 2: you would put lamb's blood into their body because the

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Speaker 2: gentleness and coolness of the lamb would come through in

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Speaker 2: the blood. And this also but this was also countered

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Speaker 2: by people who opposed blood transfusions on the idea that

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Speaker 2: you could create some kind of hybrid creature that like

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Speaker 2: negative qualities of the original animal would come through in

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Speaker 2: the new person and they wouldn't really be fully human anymore.

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Speaker 2: So there's long been this idea that transfusing blood from

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Speaker 2: one creature to another, or transplanting a body part from

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Speaker 2: one creature to another or one person to another brings

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Speaker 2: with it some kind of personality characteristic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this concern over the integrity of the body

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Speaker 1: when we get into the transplantation of tissues and fluids

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Speaker 1: and organs and limbs. And I think one of course

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Speaker 1: thing to note is that while a lot of the

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Speaker 1: concerns over blood have sort of passed away with the

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Speaker 1: with with the widespread use of blood transfusions. You know,

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Speaker 1: you will find some religious objections to blood transfusions here

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Speaker 1: and there, but for the most part, it has become

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Speaker 1: a part of our our everyday life, you know, like

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Speaker 1: you even if you're not giving blood every day, you

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Speaker 1: may hear about blood drives, et cetera. It's just part

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Speaker 1: of the medical reality of the modern world. Hand transplants,

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Speaker 1: as we'll discuss a little later, Uh are far far rarer. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They are a far more complicated procedure and one that

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Speaker 1: is not not every day and uh and also one

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Speaker 1: that is you know, it seems like our ability to

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Speaker 1: pull it off is still evolving. So you definitely see

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Speaker 1: that that that same kind of energy in these transplantation

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Speaker 1: panic films, uh and other you know, bits of fiction

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Speaker 1: that this sort of deal with this idea, what if

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Speaker 1: the hands of another became my hands, would they really

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Speaker 1: be my hands? And and that of course is one

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Speaker 1: the key things going on in this film.

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Speaker 2: I like the idea though, of these science fiction films

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Speaker 2: that take a very scientifically or at least ostensibly scientifically

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Speaker 2: grounded premise. This is about medical science performing experiments at

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Speaker 2: the edge of what was known to medicine at the day,

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Speaker 2: but it still basically believes in magic, still basically believes

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Speaker 2: that like hands contain some magical essence of the brain

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Speaker 2: of the person they came from. And it seems to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, modern science fiction doesn't usually operate on quite

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Speaker 2: that level of belief in the supernatural.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there is, there's certainly a dash to the supernatural

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Speaker 1: in this one. There is a lot of science fiction,

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Speaker 1: you know. It is essentially like science fiction is always

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Speaker 1: about our hopes and our anxieties concerning where technology is

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Speaker 1: taking us. And at the time, it was looking towards

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Speaker 1: the future in which we would be able to carry

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Speaker 1: out handtran or certainly double hand transplants. We eventually got

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Speaker 1: to that point, but at the time it was just

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Speaker 1: you know, pre speculation. It was just we we may

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Speaker 1: get to this point, and then when we get there,

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Speaker 1: what will it mean? What if it goes wrong? And

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Speaker 1: then the way it goes wrong, you know, goes a

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Speaker 1: bit more in the speculative and magical direction by going

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Speaker 1: beyond like what if it doesn't work, but also getting

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Speaker 1: into that area of what if it isn't me anymore.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you have seen any image from this film,

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Speaker 2: and I think there's a decent chance you have, it

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Speaker 2: is probably the image of Peter Lori in his rollo costume.

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Speaker 2: And we'll explain how that fits into the plot a

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Speaker 2: little bit more in more detail later, But in this costume,

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Speaker 2: it's Peter LORII wearing this bizarre metal and leather neck

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Speaker 2: brace that goes over his shoulders and goes up to

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Speaker 2: his chin and is laced up with like a shoe,

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Speaker 2: and then with metal hands and sunglasses are almost kind

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Speaker 2: of welding goggles and a big black hat.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is a really nightmarish image to behold. I

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Speaker 1: feel like it was definitely an influence on the Gestapo

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Speaker 1: agent taught in Raiders of Lost Arc played by Ron Lacey,

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Speaker 1: and Ron Lacey gives a very laure Esque performance in that,

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Speaker 1: especially when you take into a when you take into

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Speaker 1: account the code and the hat as well, and also

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Speaker 1: early character concepts for that character, and Raiders apparently gave

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Speaker 1: him a cybernetic metal arm. I feel like there's a

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Speaker 1: there's some strong comparisons to be made there, and I

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Speaker 1: think I have read that that Spielberg went with Lacey

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Speaker 1: because he reminded him of Peter Laurie.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. Well, this is getting us into the

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Speaker 2: people who were involved in this movie, so maybe we

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Speaker 2: should start with looking at the director, Carl Freund, who

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Speaker 2: was a cinematographer before he was a director proper. And

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Speaker 2: I recognized the same immediately when it came up in

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Speaker 2: the opening credits, and I realized where I recognized it

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Speaker 2: from was from the movies of Fritz Long.

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Speaker 1: That's right. He was a cinematographer on Metropolis as well

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Speaker 1: as the nineteen not a Fritz Long film, but the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one Dracula film. Oh, it was another film

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Speaker 1: that he was a cinematographer on. He was a cinematographer

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Speaker 1: on I think one hundred and sixty three films according

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Speaker 1: to IMDb, and was active through the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 2: He worked on some other universal horror films, I think

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Speaker 2: didn't he was he involved with the Mummy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he directed nineteen thirty two's The Mummy, starring Boris

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Speaker 1: Karloff as Zemmtep.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Okay, But the main attraction here, really the centerpiece, is

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Speaker 1: Peter Laurie as doctor Gogel. This Laurie is the ultimate

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Speaker 1: highlight in this film, as the picture I think gives

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Speaker 1: him a chance to shine just in multiple ways because

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Speaker 1: his Gogel, it's interesting. He's sometimes quite dapper and sly,

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Speaker 1: you know, walking around smoking, you know, gazing kind of

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Speaker 1: slyly at everything around him. Other times he's this tragic, earnest,

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Speaker 1: even manic character. And then there's this scene which again

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Speaker 1: we'll get into more of the details on in a bit,

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Speaker 1: where he takes on the guise of this reassembled Rollo character,

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Speaker 1: and he gives a really otherworldly performance in this this

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Speaker 1: kind of science fiction within a science fiction. And then

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Speaker 1: ultimately the whole plot just Criscindo's into madness and he

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Speaker 1: plays an increasingly mad character. So Laurie, I feel like,

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Speaker 1: really gets to just trot out all the tools in

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Speaker 1: this particular movie.

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Speaker 2: I think that when Mad Love was first released, it

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Speaker 2: was sort of mostly or at least partially critically panned.

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Speaker 2: I think people looked at it, yeah, yeah, okay, this

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Speaker 2: is childish trash. But even in those reviews, there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of praise for Laurie because Peter Laurie is obviously,

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Speaker 2: you know, one of the great actors, one of the

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Speaker 2: great film actors of all time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He was a Hungarian American actor of Jewish descent,

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Speaker 1: made a whole career basically out of playing weird characters,

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Speaker 1: just weirdos, you know. He had He had kind of

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Speaker 1: a you know, a kind of a weird asymmetrical look,

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Speaker 1: and he had this wonderful accent and this kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, raspy voice. The voice I don't even have

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Speaker 1: to do an impression because you're hearing it now. You

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Speaker 1: may already be speaking it out loud just to hear

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Speaker 1: yourself use it. I mean, it's it's a universally known voice.

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Speaker 1: You know. He was a legend of cinema. Now, this

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Speaker 1: was his first American film, on the heels of nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty one's much acclaimed im by Fritz Lung, and then

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Speaker 1: he played in that. He played an accused child murderer,

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Speaker 1: and he would go on to have memorable roles in

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Speaker 1: The Maltese Falcon in forty one, of course, Casablanca and

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Speaker 1: forty two, along with just a long list of great,

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Speaker 1: memorable and occasionally forgettable or embarrassing films. But he worked

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Speaker 1: with such directors as John Houston, Alfred Hitchcock, Frank Capra.

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Speaker 1: You know, he'd pretty much did it all.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Laurie, I think, is a great early example

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Speaker 2: of someone who would be well known in their own

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Speaker 2: right as a as a powerhouse film star, without being

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Speaker 2: a dashing lead, without being like, you know, an attractive

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Speaker 2: actor or actress who would play the lead role in

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Speaker 2: films to you know, to be the hero. Laurie was

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Speaker 2: often a villain or a strange character actor. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know how common it was at the time for

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Speaker 2: actors like that to be a household name that was

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Speaker 2: you know, known and revered.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like you see footage of him, such as in

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Speaker 1: that trailer, you know, like how many weird actors and

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Speaker 1: character actors today? Can you even imagine such a setup?

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Speaker 1: You know, where you're coming at everyone first with the

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Speaker 1: celebrity and the natural charisma of the actor, and then

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Speaker 1: you hit the trailer and I think it speaks to

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things about him, it is

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Speaker 1: like he was charismatic. He was, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: dashing in his own slightly anti Hollywood way. And like

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Speaker 1: I say, he also just became cemented in popular culture.

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Speaker 1: I was looking around for books about him, and I

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Speaker 1: ran across The Animated Peter Lourie by Matthew Hahn. This

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Speaker 1: is a book that points out apparently seven hundred instances

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Speaker 1: of animated cartoons using Laurie's face or voice or both.

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Speaker 1: So this is everything from old timey cartoons where it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: suddenly a bunch of dead celebrities have shown up, and

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Speaker 1: here's one of them. It's Peter Lourie. Two just characters

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Speaker 1: like on Scooby Doo or whatever that may not be

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Speaker 1: Peter Lourie but have his voice and or his appearance.

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Speaker 1: And you see that still today, Like the Peter Lourie

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Speaker 1: impersonation is kind of like a standard impersonation one might

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Speaker 1: turn to. You see it. For instance, in the Star

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Speaker 1: Wars Clone Wars animated series, there's a character that shows up,

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Speaker 1: a bounty hunter named Cad Baine, and his kind of

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Speaker 1: like a mechanic augmented voice but the root of it

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Speaker 1: is a Peter Laurie impersonation, and you can you can

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Speaker 1: pinpoint it.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I like how that connects Star Wars to the classic

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Speaker 2: old serials.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean clearly, like this is a guy that

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Speaker 1: people like Spielberg and Lucas, you know, they grew up

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Speaker 1: watching these films like he was. He was one of

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Speaker 1: the maybe not the top tier deities, but one of

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Speaker 1: the supporting deities in the pantheon of film.

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Speaker 2: Now there's another actor in the movie who I think

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Speaker 2: is maybe weirder than people realized when they cast him.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, he's supposed to be the hero of

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Speaker 2: the film. But this is Colin Clive playing Stephen Orlack,

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Speaker 2: who appeared in the Frankenstein movies. He was Doctor Frankenstein

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Speaker 2: in James Wal's Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein. And he

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Speaker 2: has such a such a rat like nervous energy in

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Speaker 2: this film. It's similar actually to what you see in

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Speaker 2: the Frankenstein movies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean in both films he played is

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Speaker 1: an accomplished and seemingly confident man who is then riddled

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Speaker 1: by madness and trauma. You know, has gone through a

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Speaker 1: traumatic experience and is continually haunted by what has occurred.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, he seems to just and I have to admit,

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Speaker 1: I've only seen Colin Clive in this movie, Mad Love

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Speaker 1: and the two Frankenstein films of Note, but in all

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Speaker 1: three of those, like, he just has this wonderful raw

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Speaker 1: energy to him, and there is this sense of like

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Speaker 1: tragedy too. I don't know how much of the tragedy

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Speaker 1: is just knowing that, for instance, he would die in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven, just two years later at the age

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Speaker 1: of thirty seven, and that he had, you know, a

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Speaker 1: number of demons in his life. I believe he suffered

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Speaker 1: from alcoholism. But you know, whatever, whatever traumas he had

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Speaker 1: in his life, you know, he seems able to have

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Speaker 1: translated that into these performances. And so, yeah, he's perfect.

390
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Speaker 1: This role is this handsome and accomplished individual who is

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Speaker 1: then put through this this traumatic situation and then then

392
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Speaker 1: pushed towards delusion by the villainist doctor Gogel.

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Speaker 2: He has this energy as if he's undergoing fission. You

394
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Speaker 2: think that you're going to walk into a room and

395
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Speaker 2: catch him just chewing on a corner of the wall. Yeah, Now,

396
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Speaker 2: there's another major actress in this film, Francis Drake, who

397
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Speaker 2: plays Stephen Orlac's wife, Yvonne Orlac, the heroine of the film,

398
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Speaker 2: who plays an actress within the movie. But one thing

399
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Speaker 2: before we get into details about Francis Drake that I

400
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Speaker 2: thought was interesting is I read that originally this role

401
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Speaker 2: of Yvonne Orlac was cast with another actress, an actress

402
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Speaker 2: named Virginia Bruce. And just clicking around on the internet,

403
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Speaker 2: I discovered that Virginia Bruce played Jane Eyre in a

404
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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty four American adaptation of the bron novel. And

405
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Speaker 2: in this movie, Colin Clive, the guy with the vision

406
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Speaker 2: rat nervous energy, plays mister Rochester. I just I don't know.

407
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Speaker 2: I would have to see that to believe it, because

408
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Speaker 2: mister Rochester is supposed to be this you know, dark,

409
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Speaker 2: smooth byronic hunk. But Colin Clive's teeth are almost audibly

410
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Speaker 2: rattling when you watch him. It's hard to imagine him

411
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Speaker 2: really fitting with that role.

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Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah, Now, I'm gonna have to watch that or

413
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Speaker 1: watch some clips from it, just to see, you know,

414
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Speaker 1: what kind of energy he has in that because again,

415
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Speaker 1: I've only seen this level of energy out of Colin Clive. Now.

416
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Speaker 1: Francis Drake is quite good in this. It's easy to

417
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Speaker 1: lose sight of her because she is kind of sandwich

418
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Speaker 1: between these very manic performances. But she was a she

419
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: was a star of the day. She was only active

420
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Speaker 1: from nineteen thirty three to nineteen forty two, but she

421
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Speaker 1: lived a long life, lived to see the twenty first century.

422
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Speaker 1: What happened is she married into the English aristocracy. Her

423
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Speaker 1: first husband, Lieutenant Cecil John Author Howard, urged her to

424
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Speaker 1: leave show business, so she did. But she's she's really

425
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Speaker 1: good in this. I mean there it's one of these

426
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Speaker 1: roles that you encounter for women in films, particularly of

427
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Speaker 1: this era, where you feel like it's definitely suffering from

428
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Speaker 1: the limitations of female roles at the time. You know, like,

429
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Speaker 1: you know she's going to faint when the villain comes

430
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Speaker 1: comes at her. You know it's going she's going to

431
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Speaker 1: be saved by the by the the male hero of

432
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Speaker 1: the piece, that sort of thing. But that being said,

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Speaker 1: she's she's she's really good in it. You know, she's

434
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: able to. I mean, it's kind of interesting. She doesn't

435
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: come off as a scream queen. I'm not sure if

436
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: that was truly a thing yet. But then at the

437
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: same time, she kind of plays a scream queen. I mean,

438
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: her character is a scream queen in the context of

439
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: the film.

440
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, her character Ivon Orlock is playing a scream queen

441
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 2: of the Grand Genial Theater in Paris. It's not named

442
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: as the Grand Genial Tie, but the grang gien Yeal

443
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: historically is this tradition of extremely gory, morbid stage productions

444
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: that would be done in Paris, And in this movie,

445
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 2: it's called the Theatre des horus I can't I don't

446
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: have French pronunciation, sorry, the Theater of Horrors. And it's

447
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: got all these creeps sitting in the audience every night

448
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: just watching her get tortured on the rack and doing

449
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: doing a marvelous job screaming and yeah. And so she

450
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: clearly has her fans. I think she's sort of supposed

451
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: to be the Linea Quigley of her day.

452
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course those creepy fans include one super

453
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: creepy fan, doctor Gogel, So he is kind of like

454
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: the the you know, the the ultimate creepy fan in

455
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: this a very successful creepy fan, but a creepy fan Nonetheless.

456
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that you mentioned that Francis Drake

457
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: got out of acting because she married a successful husband

458
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: who did not want her to pursue further pursue her career,

459
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: because that is the role she plays in this movie.

460
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: Vonn Orlak is retiring from acting at the Theater of

461
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: Horrors because she's marrying a successful husband and they're moving

462
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: to England.

463
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is interesting. I having not read the Hands

464
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: of Orlocker seen the previous adaptation, I don't know if

465
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: that was part of the original or Like a lot

466
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: of things in Mad Love, you know, it's been embellished

467
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: and added upon now, believe it or not. There is

468
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: another screen legend in this film, and that is Key Luke.

469
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: You might know him best as the man who sells

470
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: Gizmo to that kid in nineteen eighty four's Grimlins.

471
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think he sells him to the kid's dad,

472
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: right the kids?

473
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: Oh way, that's true. The dad gets gizmo as a

474
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: gift to give the kid or does he actually sell

475
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: him or does he kind of the dad steal him,

476
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: like after he won't sell him.

477
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 2: I forget how that goes down exactly, I don't recall exactly.

478
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: I mean, Key Luke is the proprietor of the Shop

479
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: of Accursed Items and yeah, yeah, and he's good in

480
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: this film, though it's a small role. He plays doctor

481
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: Gogol's colleague. Basically, he's the other surgeon that works at

482
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: doctor Gogols clinic.

483
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. What I like about his role in Mad Love

484
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: is that he's simply playing another doctor, doctor Wong, in

485
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: a straightforward part, which I mean, it's kind of complicated

486
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: to think about because on one hand, you had a

487
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: lot of stereotypical Asian characters in films at the time,

488
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: and in many cases those characters were played by non

489
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: Asian actors. Laurie himself would go on to play a

490
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: stereotypical Asian character, mister Moto, in several pictures. And this

491
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: is just sadly the practice in Hollywood at the time.

492
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: You see, you would see and even the decades to follow,

493
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: you'd see actors like Boris Carloff, Christopher Lee, Rex Harrison,

494
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn, Mickey Rooney, Alex Guinness, just to name a

495
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: few names. You know, So it feels perversely progressive to

496
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: have Luke in this role playing just a surgeon. Yet

497
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: at the same time I read that Luke himself pointed

498
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: out that he was often cast in quote good boy

499
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: scout roles like doctors and lawyers, which in this also

500
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: entails racial stereotyping. You know, so we have to keep

501
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: both extremes in mind when looking at films like this

502
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: as well as with films today. Now that being said,

503
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: Key Luke, though interesting character, very long career in Hollywood.

504
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: I believe he started out in the advertising realm of Hollywood,

505
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: like promotional posters in all, and just became a staple

506
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: of Hollywood.

507
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. I never heard that.

508
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well, I guess maybe we should talk through

509
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: the plot in a little bit more detail. Now we've

510
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: already discussed the basic setup that Ivon Norlak, played by

511
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: Francis Drake, is this grand gain y'all scream queen that

512
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: she goes on stage at the Theater of Horrors every

513
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: night in Paris. They grotesquely torture her or whatever play

514
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: they're putting on. It looks like the play they're putting

515
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: on is about a account or some wicked aristocrat who

516
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: finds out that his wife is two timing him and

517
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: then puts her on the rack. And so I put

518
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: her on this big wheel and starts stretching her arms

519
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: and she screams. And then it shows these people in

520
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: the audience where there it looks like there are a

521
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: lot of couples in the audience, and the women are

522
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: like not happy to be there, and the men are like,

523
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: oh wow, this is great. But she seems to be

524
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: she seems to enjoy her job acting in this theater,

525
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: and she she talks about her husband, Stephen Orlac.

526
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: I think it's communicated that they are recently married.

527
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: Stephen Orlac again is played by Colin Clive, and he

528
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: is a genius pianist, So like when she's preparing to

529
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: go out on stage in her dressing room, she's listening

530
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: to a performance that he's doing live on the radio.

531
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: And I think we're supposed to understand that they're very

532
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: happily married. They adore one another. And the film opens

533
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: on the night of if Vaughn's final performance at the

534
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: Theater of Horrors, before she's going to move off to

535
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: England with Stephen. But as you mentioned, Yvon has a

536
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: creepy secret admirer among the audience. Doctor Gogol, it is said,

537
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: is there every single night in his theater box. He's

538
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: basically keeping the theater running, constantly buying this expensive box

539
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: seat to watch her from.

540
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: Because doctor Gogel, I'm not sure if we firmly established this,

541
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: but he is a superstar surgeon of the day, like

542
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 1: he is. He is a wealthy, super talented surgeon who

543
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: is clearly I don't know, I don't know if he's

544
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: really performed anything, you know, miracle level yet at this point,

545
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, in the timeline, but like he's out there

546
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: saving lives, Like there's a scene where he has saved

547
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: a child's life through his brilliant surgical intervention.

548
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's communicated that he has a very powerful

549
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: mind and very gifted hands, coming back to a theme

550
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: throughout the movie, and so he saves children's lives. They

551
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: talk about how he saves soldiers who have been injured

552
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: in the war. They don't talk about what war. This

553
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: is the nineteen thirties in Paris, so I guess that

554
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: would refer to World War One.

555
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

556
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: But then doctor Gogol finds out that this is Yvonne's

557
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: last night, and he does not like this. He's horrified,

558
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: in fact, because he is obsessed with her. He's there

559
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: every night to see her. Like she says, I'm leaving

560
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: and then he's like, oh, what theater are you going to?

561
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: And she's like, well, actually I'm just moving to England.

562
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: And he doesn't like this at all. He's distraught. But

563
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: fortunately for doctor Gogol, the theater happens to be removing

564
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: a wax figure of Yvonne. They have it like standing

565
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: out in the lobby and it looks so much like

566
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: her that it is in fact played by her. It's

567
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: just Francis Drake's standing there, not moving. But they're taking

568
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: the wax figure out of the theater so it can

569
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: be melted down for scrap wax. And then Gogol intercepts

570
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: this delivery, buys the wax figure of her, and he

571
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: has a deliver to his apartment. The whole time he's

572
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: monologuing about the myth of Pygmalion and Galatea.

573
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great scene because like the guy

574
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: that you know clearly thinks it's creepy, and Google Google

575
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: just you know, offers them enough money to buy it.

576
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a a pre eBay creepy eBay

577
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: trans transaction.

578
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: You know, yes, very but I don't quite understand how

579
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be like the myth of Pygmalion or

580
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: of Galatea, because he doesn't make the wax sculpture.

581
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: He just buys it.

582
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: But he keeps streaming that it's going to come to

583
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: life and love.

584
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: Him, Yeah, ranting about the Galatea. Uh yeah, I love

585
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: it and I love that that it's just Francis Drake

586
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: playing the wax duplicate and without any I don't think

587
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: they did anything to her. They just have her stand

588
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: there in costume, which which is nice because it plays

589
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: in with what is to come later in the in

590
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: the plot. Yeah.

591
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: So, next thing is we meet the pianist Stephen Orlac

592
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: on a train and there's a scene that comes here

593
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: that I love so much. The sausage slash dog scene

594
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: is just amazing. So Orlac is riding in a train

595
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: car across from him, there's a passenger who's just eating

596
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: a giant sausage. I'm pretty sure it's a sausage. I

597
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: don't know what else it could be. It's not a baguette,

598
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: because it shows him holding a baguette next to it,

599
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: So I think it's just a huge sausage the size

600
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: of a baguette.

601
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: And is it that I don't remember this part of

602
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: the movie as much? Is Does the guy with the

603
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: bag at have like a snappy American accent? No?

604
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: No, no, no, he's supposed to be French, I believe.

605
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so the snappy American characters are yet

606
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: to come.

607
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: Okay, there yet to come. Yes, yes, no.

608
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: The guy eating the huge sausage I think is French,

609
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: and next to him on the bench and the train

610
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: car is a picnic basket.

611
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: And then suddenly a little puppy.

612
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: Pops up out of the picnic basket, pops up its head,

613
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: and the man explains to calin Clive, He's like, well,

614
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: it costs twenty francs extra if you want to bring

615
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: a dog on the train. So I'm sneaking the dog

616
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: on in my pick and basket and don't let the

617
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 2: guards find out. And then colin Clive wonderfully says, if

618
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: my silence is worth twenty francs, buy it.

619
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: I'm hungry.

620
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: So the guy cuts off a piece of his monster

621
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: sausage and gives it to Orlac, and then Orlac immediately

622
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: gives the sausage to the basket dog, and then the

623
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: sausage Man after that abandons all pretensive utensil use. He

624
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: like puts down his knife and he just gnaws it.

625
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: He just sticks the thing in his mouth and bites

626
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: it like an apple.

627
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I never sausage a scene. It's it's one

628
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: of several humorous scenes in this film that at once

629
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: feel completely out of place, but also you know, I wouldn't.

630
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want this film without him. Like they're they're

631
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: they're they're interesting, They're they're funny. I don't know they're

632
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: funny in the way they would have been received at

633
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: the time, but there is there's something kind of slapsticky

634
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: and amusing about them.

635
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: I think it's supposed to be funny. In any case,

636
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: whatever it was supposed to be. Sausage Man is my hero.

637
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 2: I want action figures of Sausage Man. I want I

638
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: want our fans to make a Sausage Man.

639
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: T shirts that what It would have been a totally

640
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: different film. By the way, had Sausage Man's hands end

641
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: up transplanted onto Steven Orlock.

642
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: My god, yes, so like I can't play the piano anymore.

643
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: I can only grab huge sausages. But anyway, that that

644
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: preludes the next thing we have to talk about, which

645
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 2: is that a prisoner is brought on board the train

646
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: and it is explained that this is Rollow, the knife thrower,

647
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: who is skilled at throwing knives. I guess that's a skill.

648
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 2: I'd never thought about that much before.

649
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: But what do they say he did.

650
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: I think it's said he murdered his own father by

651
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: throwing a knife at him.

652
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeap, yeap, which will become important later on. So yeah,

653
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: he's a he's a convicted murder and he's he's on

654
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: the way to the guillotine.

655
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: His mannerisms are very soft and friendly and American. They

656
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: specify he is America and he's not French. He just

657
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: happens to be in France going to the guillotine, and

658
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 2: he's he comes up off almost kind of like Buddy Hackett.

659
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: Yes, he reminds me a lot of and I'm sorry,

660
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: I forget the actor's name of the actor who plays

661
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: baby Face Nelson. You know, no brother, where art thou?

662
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: You know that kind of old time hel likely comes

663
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: off as a charismatic, likable character, not a knife wielding murderer.

664
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: And on one hand, I found myself thinking, well, what

665
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: if they had actually made Rollo terrifying here? Would that

666
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: have been more beneficial later on? But maybe I'm The

667
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: thing is, I'm not sure it would because I don't know.

668
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: The impersonation of a re animated Rollo that comes later

669
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: is very much, you know, a go Gole creation, So

670
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess ultimately I'm okay with this

671
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: particular character being a little a little hammy and a

672
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: little likable despite being a murderer.

673
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: Well, I think it kind of works because Gogol, if

674
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: I recall correctly, has never meets Rollo while he's alive.

675
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: He only gets access to his dead body once it's guillotined. Yeah,

676
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: but we should say before Rollo gets guillotined through happenstance

677
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: orchestrated by sausage man. By the way, because sausage Man

678
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: wants Rollo's autograph, he apparently collects the autographs of famous people,

679
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: including father murderers.

680
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: He goes next.

681
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: He goes next to the other train car, using Stephen

682
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: Orlac's pin to try to get an autograph Orlac has

683
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 2: to go get his pin, and so by these means

684
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: he meets Rollo. But anyway, Rollo gets off the train

685
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: to get executed. Laurie goes to the guillotining because apparently

686
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: he always does. But after Rollo gets off the train,

687
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: the train tragically derails and Steven survives the crash, but

688
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: his hands are mangled and destroyed, and of course he's

689
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,479
Speaker 2: a pianist by trade, so he needs his hands to play,

690
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 2: and Yvonne wants to. So she's talking to the surge

691
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: in the hospital after the accident, saying, can't you save

692
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: his hands? And the surgeon's like, I'm sorry, ma'am, we'll

693
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: have to amputate. So Yvonne is desperate and she realizes, oh,

694
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: I've got this creepy admirer, doctor Gogol, and he's the

695
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 2: world's greatest surgeon. I can take Stephen to him, and

696
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: so that's what she does. She has Stephen taking an

697
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: ambulance to doctor Gogol's clinic and says, you've got to

698
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 2: save his hands. He needs them to play. But unfortunately,

699
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 2: doctor Gogol discovers it is impossible to salvage his hands

700
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 2: as they are, but Gogall, in his desire to please Yvonne,

701
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: manages to transplant Rolo the knife thrower's hands onto Stephen's wrists.

702
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: Yes, he decides to essentially try the impossible. There's that

703
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: great scene where he's in there with doctor Wong and A.

704
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: Laurie's character proclaims an impossible Napoleon said that word is

705
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: not French.

706
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: Yes, that part's great.

707
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it seems for a while like all is

708
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 2: well or you know, Stephen discovers that his hands work,

709
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: and everything's good, until Steven starts to figure out that

710
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: he can't play the piano anymore. You hear there the

711
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: scenes of him sort of banging on the keys with

712
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: with nothing like the deafness that he's used to and

713
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: he so he can't play the piano, but he can

714
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: do things he couldn't do before, such as accurately throw

715
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 2: knives and pins so that they stick into doors and walls.

716
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: Yes, how does he discover this?

717
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: I think he just gets angry. So this is part

718
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 2: of the personality bleed over too, because there's the idea

719
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 2: that his hands have the skills of Rallo with throwing

720
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: a knife, but they also have Raullo's murderous inclinations, that

721
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: he's suddenly violent when he wasn't before. Now this leads

722
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 2: to all kinds of problems because he can't play piano.

723
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: Suddenly they're in want of money, and and Stephen and

724
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: Yuvaughn's position just sorts to fall apart, and Yvonne goes

725
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,439
Speaker 2: to Gogall for help. Gogl of course demands her love,

726
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 2: and she won't give it to him, and then in

727
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: a fit of rage, go Gol decides that he needs

728
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: to drive Stephen mad. So his plan is that he's

729
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 2: going to commit murders and then assume the identity of Rallo,

730
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: the knife thrower who Stephen knows was executed, and try

731
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: to convince Stephen that Stephen himself did the murders that

732
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: the go Gol actually did, by telling him the truth

733
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 2: that he has Rollo's hands on his wrists and using

734
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: as proof the fact that he go Gol, pretending to

735
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: be Rallo, is now still alive because go Gol transplanted

736
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: his dead head onto another person's body. And this is

737
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: when Gogl as Rollo dons that amazing outfit with the

738
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: neck brace and the leather and the steel hands.

739
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is just it is a really haunting scene.

740
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: It is if you if you don't have the I

741
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: don't know the courage or the time to watch the

742
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: full movie. I think, uh, I think there's a there's

743
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: some clip. There's a clip of this, an official clip

744
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: of just this scene online, and yeah, it's wonderful. It's

745
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: there's So there's the costume level of it, which we've

746
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: described already, but also Gogel as Rollo is speaking in

747
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: this this faint whisper, this raspy whisper, you know, the

748
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: voice of one whose whose head has been refused with

749
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: his body, and he's he feels at once like this

750
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: this this strange, perverse miracle of modern surgery. But also

751
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: he's like a ghost. He's like a wraith brought back

752
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: to warn uh Oarlock of what is to come.

753
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: I am a little confused about go Gol's plan or

754
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: the logic of it. So I think what he he

755
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: thinks is that if he can falsely convince Stephen that

756
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: he did murders, this will cause Stephen to continue to

757
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: actually do.

758
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: Murders right or get caught by the police, either by

759
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: turning himself in or just by doing more murders.

760
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

761
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: Either way, it's a win for Gogle because then he

762
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: can swoop in and you know, he and Yvonne will

763
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: be married and live happily ever after.

764
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he sort of neglects to consider the fact

765
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: that Yvonne doesn't want to marry him. Gogol is not

766
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 2: thinking clearly at this point, right.

767
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: He doesn't have a good head for romance. No, you know,

768
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: he asked that question at one point. He says, I

769
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: a poor peasant have conquered science, why can't I conker love?

770
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: And I mean, clearly he has a great head for science,

771
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: but not for love. He doesn't really understand how love works.

772
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: And you know, he can certainly use his technical skills

773
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: in his brilliant mind to put the hands of a

774
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: dead man onto the hands of a survivor, but in

775
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: terms of transplanting Yvonne into his life, that is beyond

776
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: his ability. But he still has this wonderfully perhaps overly

777
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: complex plan to pull it off. It may sound a

778
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: bit overly complex here, but I don't know. I feel

779
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: like within the context of this plot and in the

780
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: context of this movie, it works. You just kind of

781
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: have to roll with it. But it just sort of

782
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: skips lightly over the top of the water and then

783
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: moves on. Yeah.

784
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: So, of course Stephen is implicated in these murders that

785
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: Gogol did, or at least one murder. I think maybe

786
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: it's just one actually, and he So he's arrested by

787
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: the police, and Yvonne goes to Gogol's apartment to confront him.

788
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: But then while she's there, she discovers his evil plan.

789
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: And because he's coming back in the rollo costume cackling

790
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 1: to himself about how about it, basically reveals his entire

791
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: plot and then taking the costume off, and what does

792
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: she do to hide?

793
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: Oh? Wait, no, before we get there, I've got to

794
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 2: say about when he's explaining the plot, he's not even

795
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: doing the bond villain explaining it to Bond. He's doing

796
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: the bond villain ex explaining his whole scheme to no one.

797
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 2: He's just explaining it to the ceiling. Oh maybe it

798
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 2: is the parrot. Okay, I take it back, Maybe he's

799
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: explaining to the bird. But yes, So he's coming home,

800
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: he's coming into his study. She's there because she had

801
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: come to confront him, and then she discovers she she

802
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: has to hide, and in this suspenseful final scene. She

803
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: has to pretend to be the wax sculpture of herself,

804
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: which is a fantastic set piece.

805
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: And it's really well shot too. There's this wonderful sort

806
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: of long shot where they come around the corner. It's

807
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: like Gogel's point of view and there she is standing

808
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: there as the wax sculpture. It's it's a beautiful moment

809
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: in the film.

810
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: Mm hmm uh.

811
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: And then of course, uh, the Stephen and the police

812
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: come to the rescue. I feel like it has a

813
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: kind of disappointing conventional ending where Steven in the climax

814
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 2: puts his new hands to good use. You could say

815
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: uh and uh, and then it's just like, okay, Gogall's dead,

816
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 2: and then Steven and Yvonne embrace and then just immediately

817
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: the end happily ever after. This is the thing about

818
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: a lot of these old movies. It seems like they

819
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: wrap up very fast. They don't have any kind of

820
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: interesting coda that puts a new spin on this. Like

821
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: it's like this movie, it's like the moment the villain

822
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: is defeated, the two main characters embrace and kiss, and

823
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: then music swells and it's over at the end.

824
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: Well, you know, bladders were much smaller back then, and

825
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: you can only make it so far through a film.

826
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: Speaking of bladders, there are some great side plots we

827
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 2: haven't even mentioned. Actually, I don't know if they're great.

828
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: There are some side plots that exist involving an alcoholic

829
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: housekeeper who's always trying to get some brandy and a

830
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: fast talking American reporter played by Ted Healy, who's the

831
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: guy who you know, he sounds like a baseball announcer

832
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: of the nineteen thirties and he's always using strange mannerisms

833
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: and figures of speech. Like there's a scene where where

834
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: Rollo is about to be executed by guillotine and he's

835
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: there to cover it. I don't know why this, this

836
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: American reporter is there to cover the guillotining of a

837
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: criminal there in Paris. But he's explaining to the police

838
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 2: commissioner that he's like, look, you know, you got to

839
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: have gen for executions, you got to have champagne for this.

840
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: And I can't.

841
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: Reproduce it, but it's it's pretty good.

842
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, But it's a kind of snappy, snappy American accent

843
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: that you hear in these old films and you end

844
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: up wondering, I think people ever actually talk like this,

845
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: or is this just this sort of vaudevillian trope, because

846
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 1: I believe Heally was like a vaudevillian comic actor. I

847
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 1: think he had ties to the Three Stooges, even it's

848
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: part of that whole syndicate.

849
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: I think it is playing up the Transatlantic accent of

850
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: the time, which was like not an organic accent, but

851
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 2: an accent that was sort of a product of training.

852
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 3: And so it was taking that accent and then accentuating.

853
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: It to unreal levels like what It's kind of like

854
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: what a lot of like pop country musicians do with

855
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 2: their southern accents and music today, where you're taking something

856
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: that is a real accent but just playing it up

857
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: to a point that it's a parody of itself.

858
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so it's kind of kind in a

859
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: like a vicious circle of self parody, and you end

860
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: up with this just I have to say, kind of

861
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: obnoxious performance. That's just it's just full of one liners

862
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: and zingers, and I mean, I wouldn't take it out.

863
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: It's part of this film, but it's it's I feel

864
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: like the modern parallel here would be an otherwise serious film.

865
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: And suddenly Rob Schneider shows up and he's doing some

866
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: sort of of goofy, lame character. I meanwhile, you have

867
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: like Peter Lorii and Colin Clive, you know, doing their

868
00:47:53,000 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: own crazy but ultimately seriously grounded performance. All right, So,

869
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: as if we've been pointing out, this film really centers

870
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: around hand transplantation, so let's talk a little bit about

871
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 1: the science of hand transplantation and also the history of

872
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 1: hand transplantation.

873
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 2: All right, Well, hand transplantation is It's interesting how this

874
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: movie fits into the history of it, because hand transplantation

875
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: is absolutely real now, but it was not at the

876
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: time this film was made. I was looking at a

877
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 2: paper called the History and Evolution of Hand Transplantation, published

878
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: in the journal hand Clinics in twenty eleven by Furuhar

879
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: at All. And so one thing to note is that

880
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 2: hand transplantation is an example of a broader class of

881
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: surgeries that are now known as vascularized composite allo transplantation,

882
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: or sometimes vascularized composite allograft VCA for short, and this

883
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: basically means the grafting of a whole unit organ composed

884
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: of multiple kinds of tissue, so that would mean muscles, tendons, circulation, bones, nerves, skin.

885
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 2: It's a lot of different stuff and it all has

886
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: to connect properly to be functional, which is not easy.

887
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 2: It's sometimes described as like there's this ascending ladder of

888
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: the priorities of things that you have to connect and

889
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: in what order of importance they come, and it does

890
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: rely on very advanced techniques in microsurgery. Now, obviously the

891
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: surgery involved to connect a hand to an arm segment

892
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 2: in a functional way is really complicated, but it's not

893
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: just the complexity of the surgery. One of the main

894
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: barriers to successful hand transplantation in history, or at least

895
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 2: in previous decades, was the insufficient development of immunosuppression, without

896
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: which the immune system will revolt and reject the new organ.

897
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: The first ever hand transplant that we know of was

898
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 2: performed by a doctor Robert Gilbert in Ecuador in nineteen

899
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 2: sixty four, and this transplant did not really work. So

900
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: the authors here explained that about three weeks after the

901
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: initial graft, the transplanted hand had to be amputated because

902
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: there was an acute immune rejection. And the authors say

903
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: that quote This early experience, along with similar failures in

904
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: animal models, led researchers to believe that skin bearing transplants

905
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: were prohibitively immunogenic. A thirty year period of stagnation followed,

906
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: but then in the nineteen eighties and nineties, new medications

907
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: came online that made hand transplantation seem viable again, and

908
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: they list a few examples here, including calcinurine inhibitors, cyclospore

909
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: and a TACROLEMAS and MMF, and drugs like these opened

910
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: the doors to multiple kinds of VCA. The authors here

911
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 2: cite a couple of the first success hand transplants in

912
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 2: the late nineteen nineties, one of which actually was in

913
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: France by a surgeon named Jean Michel Dubernard and his

914
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 2: colleagues in Leone in nineteen ninety eight. So this first

915
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: patient in ninety eight received a single hand transplant. The

916
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 2: surgery apparently took thirteen hours and the operation was at

917
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 2: first successful, but unfortunately the patient did not follow instructions

918
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: for his immunosuppression and physical therapy and he eventually left

919
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 2: the care of the team in Leone, and this had

920
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 2: disastrous consequences and he had to have the hand amputated

921
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one. Presumably it didn't say why,

922
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: but presumably this was because of immune rejection. And then

923
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 2: the same group in France under Dubernard, performed the world's

924
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 2: first bilateral hand transplant, so both hands in January two thousand.

925
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: Here the patient was a painter thirty three years old

926
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 2: who lost both of his hands when he was experimenting

927
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: with the homemade rocket and it exploded.

928
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

929
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: Now, the time of this review that was published in

930
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: twenty eleven, the authors believed that more than sixty five

931
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: hand transplants had been carried out worldwide. Most of them

932
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 2: at this point were successful. Some had had to be

933
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 2: amputated due to immune reactions, but most of them were successful.

934
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: I haven't found a more recent estimate, but surely the

935
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: number is a good bit higher than that now as

936
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: therapies have continued to evolve.

937
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: You know, doctor Cody k Azari is a big name

938
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: in hand transplantation, having served as one of the lead

939
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: surgeons on six hand transplantation operations, including the first double

940
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: hand transplantation and first arm transplantation performed in the United States.

941
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: I got to hear him give a talk for the

942
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: Moth in New York City several years ago as part

943
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: of the World Science Festival, and you can listen to

944
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: this at themoth dot org or look it up on YouTube,

945
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,439
Speaker 1: I believe. But it was a really cool talk because

946
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: he talks about just the intensity of the surgery, and

947
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: I remember feeling like like I either got the impression

948
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: or maybe even used this comparison himself, that you got

949
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: the idea that this is like scaling a mountain. You know,

950
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: it was like the surgical you know, again, all the

951
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: different types of connections that have to be made, you know,

952
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: all the concerns that have to be taken into place

953
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: to pull this off. You know, it's it's really impressive.

954
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: And that's without even getting again into what comes afterward.

955
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a situation where you wake up

956
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: Stephen Orlock and say hey, you got new hands and

957
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: he's like, okay, I'm gonna go and try and play piano,

958
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,479
Speaker 1: and like, no, it's there. You know, there's a drug

959
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: regime that has to be followed, and physical therapy is

960
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: a huge part of adapting to life post transplantation.

961
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of the sources I was looking at

962
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: emphasize the importance of the psychology like psychological screening and

963
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: the psychology of how people adapt to hand transplants. I

964
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 2: mean for multiple reasons, but one of which is following

965
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 2: through after the surgery is incredibly important, as was for example,

966
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 2: made clear by that first case where the guy was

967
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 2: not taking his immuno suppression drugs properly. It was not

968
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 2: following through in physical therapy, and that eventually led to

969
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: the hand being rejected.

970
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, on the psychological front, I was looking at a

971
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 1: paper from nineteen ninety nine by Martin M. Klappeck, MD

972
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: titled Transplantation in the Human Hand Psychiatric Considerations, and the

973
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: author here points out the one has to take into

974
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: account the psychology of the hand as well as the

975
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: quote psychodynamic issues in limb loss and the psychological integration

976
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: of a transplanted hand. He wrote, quote Potential candidates for

977
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: hand transplantation should receive a psychiatric interview and projective testing

978
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: to assess the patient's adaptability to body image, level of personality, organization,

979
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: and capacity for pathological regression. And one of the things

980
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 1: that he was pointing out is that at the time anyway,

981
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: there wasn't as much of this, like just you saw

982
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: this with the various levels of organ transplantation, but there

983
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: apparently wasn't as much of it in place for hand transplantation.

984
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this now hopefully that will look for hand

985
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: transplantation is just continuing to get better.

986
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 3: It seems like it is.

987
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 2: But for at least going back to say ten or

988
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: twenty years ago, I was seeing papers that were talking

989
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: about the pros and cons of hand transplantation, saying, well,

990
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 2: you could potentially get this quality of life increase, like

991
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 2: with a transplanted hand as opposed to prosthetics, but you know,

992
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 2: obviously there are major health consequences like if it is rejected,

993
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: so that there are big risks involved as well. And

994
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 2: it seems like over time the pros are starting to

995
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,479
Speaker 2: build up and the cons are decreasing. But for a while,

996
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 2: I think there was serious debate over like whether this

997
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 2: was a reasonable surgery to perform given all the risks

998
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 2: and downsides.

999
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you can find a sort of outstanding

1000
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: examples in either direction. So take bilateral hand transplantation for example,

1001
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 1: you know someone who's lost both hands and they get

1002
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: two hands transplanted on for instance. Some of you might

1003
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: remember in twenty sixteen there was the case of American

1004
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: double hand transplant recipient Jeff Kepner, who made headlines saying

1005
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: that he wanted his own transplanted planted hands removed that

1006
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: he had received like ten years earlier, and it wasn't

1007
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 1: something where he was blaming the doctors, like he's communicated that,

1008
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: you know, he knew it was a risk to try

1009
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: this out, but he wanted to give it a go.

1010
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: But at this point he was saying, like I just

1011
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: don't have functionality in these hands, like I was better

1012
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: with process is instead, and I would prefer to go back,

1013
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: if possible to what I had before. But then on

1014
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: the other hand, you have the case of an Austrian

1015
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: police officer named Theokles who was able to return full

1016
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: to full time work after bilateral hand transplantation. So it's

1017
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: very much a success story. That story is even even

1018
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: more dramatic because Kles was a bomb disposal expert working

1019
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: to diffuse a bomb placed in a school by Austrian

1020
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 1: mass murder of Franz Fuchs, who killed four and injured

1021
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: fifteen in five waves of male bombs I think a

1022
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: total of twenty four mail bombs. So rather dramatic case,

1023
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: but ultimately a surgical success story, I understand.

1024
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: So it seems like the transplantation of hands has made

1025
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 2: great strides, and I think is continuing to do so.

1026
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 2: The transplantation of heads is another theme in the movie,

1027
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 2: though I don't think in the film anyone actually gets

1028
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 2: their head transplanted. It's just that doctor Gogol comes up

1029
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: with this story to try to drive Drive, calling Clive

1030
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: insane by saying that he is Rallo after having undergone

1031
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: a head transplant, which didn't actually happen. It's just Gogall

1032
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: in disguise.

1033
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: Right, And again, it's almost almost feels like a tragedy

1034
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: that we have created such a fantastic character that is

1035
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: itself a fantasy within the context of the film. But

1036
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's still it's still perfect. It's still perfect.

1037
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, every few years it seems like you hear

1038
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 2: news stories about a doctor or surgeon somewhere who claims

1039
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 2: that they can perform a head transplant or however you

1040
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 2: want to call it. We could talk about the terminology.

1041
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: It just never seems to materialize. I don't know how

1042
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 2: realistic the idea of a head transplant with modern medicine is.

1043
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's if we can compare hand transplantation to to

1044
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:38,919
Speaker 1: scaling a mountain then then ultimately head transplantation or whole

1045
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: body transplantation the other way referring to it, this would

1046
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: be the mount everest, Like, this would be the ultimate

1047
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: peak because.

1048
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:48,439
Speaker 3: It'd be more like scaling a mountain on the moon.

1049
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. Uh, it would be the ultimate

1050
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: surgical achievement because this is this is something you know,

1051
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 1: we have to face, Like no human being has ever

1052
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: truly survived decapitation. I mean, certainly there are arguments and

1053
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: various observations about how long consciousness seems to remain in

1054
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: a freshly cut head. But this is only brief you know,

1055
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: interns right in terms of keeping it alive in a

1056
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: jar or on a pan, as we see in a

1057
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: whole other genre of sci fi films from the especially

1058
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. You know, that is that is thus

1059
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: far beyond us, as certainly is the idea of taking

1060
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: ahead and attaching a body to it so that we

1061
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: the head can use the body. And this is where

1062
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: it gets kind of weird, like not only is this

1063
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: like not a surgical reality, it's still within the realm

1064
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: of fantasy, like it even it even further accentuates that

1065
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: question of what is self? What is body? You know,

1066
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: the idea of head and body it because it is

1067
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: a quite literal invocation of the whole. You know, we've

1068
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: talked about the mind body connection and how it is

1069
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: perhaps unhealthy to think of ourselves as a brain attached

1070
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: to a body, a head on a body, like a

1071
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: rider on a horse, when instead we're this integrated system.

1072
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: We are essentially a centaur of mind and body. But

1073
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: then you have an example like this, or at least

1074
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: a theoretical idea like this, that you could take the

1075
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: head and attach you to another body and this would

1076
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: be the new individual. You know. It does raise all

1077
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: sorts of questions and and even nightmares in the human mind.

1078
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 2: It does remind me of the Daniel Dinnett short story

1079
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: where am I that we've talked.

1080
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 3: About on the show before.

1081
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it raises all sorts of questions, big

1082
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 1: questions and small questions, thoughtful questions and grotesque ones. I

1083
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: feel like there's there's at least one episode right where

1084
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: there's a head transplantation on The Simpsons. There's like a

1085
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: treehouse of horror where that sounds right? Yeah, the what

1086
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: they put Homer's brain in a robot and the robot

1087
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: falls onto mister Burns, and then mister Burns had is

1088
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: transplanted onto Homer's body.

1089
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 2: Why was I imagining flam head on Homer's body? That

1090
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 2: doesn't sound That's not right, is it?

1091
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: Maybe they got around to that later. There are a

1092
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: lot of treehouses I haven't seen. Well.

1093
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, with this point of The Simpsons, basically you can

1094
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 2: just like throw out random ideas and then it turns

1095
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: out they already did that in an episode and probably

1096
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 2: maybe did it more than once.

1097
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: Now, in terms of surviving decapitation, there are animals that

1098
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: can survive longer, certainly longer than us without a head.

1099
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: It's often pointed out that decapitated cockroaches die of starvation

1100
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: rather than just simply the loss of their head.

1101
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 2: But there you're talking about which one? Are you talking

1102
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 2: about surviving the head or the body?

1103
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? Again, it kind of messes with our conception of

1104
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: what an individual, even an individual cockroach is, right. It's

1105
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: kind of like that whole running around like a chicken

1106
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: with the head cut off, which is alluding to, you know,

1107
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: observations that a chicken seems to the chicken's body seems

1108
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: to live longer than a human body without a head.

1109
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,439
Speaker 1: But is the body living, you know, is the head?

1110
01:01:58,880 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: It gets complicated.

1111
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 3: I could be.

1112
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: Mistaken about this because it is just off the top

1113
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 2: of my head, so to speak. But I think the

1114
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 2: reason that's observed with chickens is because the brain basically

1115
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 2: isn't fully removed, Like you can sort of decapitate a chicken,

1116
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: but the brain stem is still there and functioning. It's

1117
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 2: just the upper part of the brain that's been taken away.

1118
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 2: I might be wrong about that, but that's what I recall.

1119
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: Now. In animals, blood vessel reattachment has been achieved, but

1120
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: a full human head reattachment would require a complete reattachment

1121
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: of vessels, muscles, et cetera. Everything that's involved in transplanting

1122
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 1: a hand, but also the spinal cord as well, and

1123
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: we'd need to be able to sustain the head while

1124
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: all of this was happening. You know, again, how do

1125
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: we keep ahead alive after it is removed from the body,

1126
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: and then how would we keep it alive long enough

1127
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: to get it reattached. So, yeah, we're simply not there

1128
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: yet in terms of reattaching head to a body, though.

1129
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 1: I love the way that it is created Google in

1130
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: the film, you know, the idea of this brace being

1131
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: used to achieve a kind of like rough Head transplantation,

1132
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: like he seems to have approached it with it, you know,

1133
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: the thoughtful mind like, oh, well, this would be a

1134
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: very difficult thing to pull off. The results would not

1135
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: be pleasant. How would I how would I depict this

1136
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: to Orlock? I think I just.

1137
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 2: Noticed that this entire episode, we've been saying all these

1138
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 2: names in different ways multiple times. I think I've been

1139
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 2: saying Gogall and Gogall, and I've been saying or Lock

1140
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: and or Lock, and I really don't know which one

1141
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: is right at this point. As for Orlock, isn't that

1142
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 2: the name of the vampire in nos Feratu?

1143
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, count Orlock. Yeah it is Max Shrek. Yeah, yeah,

1144
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: I'm not Chelty. Is it's spelled the same?

1145
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so.

1146
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: I think this would spelled yeah, And of course I

1147
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: think I think Orlock was They chose that name because

1148
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: they didn't have the right to Dracula, so they're like,

1149
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: all right, come up with something else.

1150
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 2: They should have used Alu Card or doctor Akila in

1151
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 2: the diet that would have been good. So there's another

1152
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 2: thing I wanted to talk about in this movie that

1153
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: I thought was interesting is that it features a couple

1154
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 2: of poems that are by two different Brownings. There are

1155
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 2: parts of the movie where Gogall quotes poetry. The first

1156
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 2: I noticed was there's a part where he's I think

1157
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 2: he's pining for Yvonne. You know, he's feeling despondent because

1158
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: he loves her and she's married to another. And he

1159
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 2: says he starts reading a quote from a book. It

1160
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 2: sounded familiar to me, and I looked it up, and

1161
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 2: I think the quote is from a poem by Elizabeth

1162
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: Barrett Browning, the English poet Sonnets from the Portuguese Seven.

1163
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 2: It's often known by its first line, which is the

1164
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 2: face of all the world has changed, I think, And

1165
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 2: the lines are like the face of all the world

1166
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 2: has changed, I think. Since first I heard the footsteps

1167
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 2: of the soul move still, Oh, still beside me, as

1168
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 2: they stole betwixt me and the dreadful outer brink of

1169
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: obvious death, where I, who thought to sink, was caught

1170
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 2: up into love and taught the whole of life in

1171
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 2: a new rhythm and it goes on from there. But

1172
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 2: that's the part that has what he reads. And then

1173
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 2: later in the film, I thought this was pretty interesting.

1174
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 2: On the screenwriter's part, he quotes a poem when he

1175
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 2: is trying to murder Yvonne. He starts to strangle her

1176
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 2: with the braids of her own hair, and as he's

1177
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: leaning over Francis Drake, I think she has fainted at

1178
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 2: this point, and he quotes from the poem Porphyria's Lover

1179
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 2: by Elizabeth Barrett Browning's husband, the poet Robert Browning.

1180
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: And this is a line. You may have read this.

1181
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 2: Poem in school. It's pretty famous. In the poem, the

1182
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 2: speaker is talking about a murder he committed, having murdered

1183
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 2: his lover, and he says, I found a thing to do,

1184
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 2: and all her hair in one long yellow string. I

1185
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: wound three times her little throat around and strangled her.

1186
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 2: No pain felt she I am quite sure she felt

1187
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 2: no pain. As a shut bud that holds a bee,

1188
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 2: I warily opened her lids again, laughed the blue eyes

1189
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 2: without a stain.

1190
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a part of just that. I mean,

1191
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: the whole movie is wonderful, but this last stretch is

1192
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: just excellent, and where he recites this poem while he's

1193
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 1: going to strangle her while she's unconscious, as Orlock, Stephen

1194
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: Orlock and the others are trying to beat down the door.

1195
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 2: But then I guess Gogalla is undone by his own work.

1196
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 2: In addition to becoming an evil murderer, he also made

1197
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 2: the mistake of giving Stephen Orlock hands that are really

1198
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 2: good at killing from a distance. Yeah, right, So Orlac

1199
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 2: sort of reaches through the grate in the door and

1200
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 2: throws a knife and sticks it in Gogalls back, and

1201
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 2: then I don't get I guess somehow right after that

1202
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:53,959
Speaker 2: they get through the door anyway.

1203
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: You know. It also drives home why the Hands of

1204
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 1: Orlock isn't a good title for this ether, because it's

1205
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: basically the hands of Rallo. That's what that's what's in

1206
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: the film. The Hands of warlocker lost pretty early on

1207
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: unless you're getting deep and wondering about like who owns

1208
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: the hands? I don't know. But in the end, also,

1209
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: it is mad love. It is about mad characters going

1210
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 1: mad and trying to figure out how love works.

1211
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 2: So there is a thing I noticed about this movie

1212
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 2: as it was on Amazon Prime. Amazon declares this film

1213
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 2: to be rated PG thirteen, and I was like, how

1214
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,919
Speaker 2: did Mad Love end up rated PG thirteen when movie

1215
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 2: ratings had not been invented yet? Or I don't think

1216
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 2: there were any kinds of ratings. If there were, they

1217
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 2: weren't the system we have now, and certainly not the

1218
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 2: PG thirteen rating, which was not invented till the nineteen eighties.

1219
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 3: I looked it up.

1220
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 2: The first PG thirteen film was Red Dawn.

1221
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: They must have. My only guess here is they must

1222
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: have accidentally pulled the rating off of nineteen ninety five's

1223
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: Mad Love that we mentioned earlier, unrelated film, but that

1224
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 1: was rated PG thirteen in the era in which that

1225
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: rating actually existed.

1226
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 2: It would be horrible. I think if they are going

1227
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 2: back intopplaying MPAA ratings to like pre code movies.

1228
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 3: Just yeah, don't even try.

1229
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: Now you might be wondering, well, where can I watch

1230
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 1: Mad Love? We already mentioned checking it out on Amazon Prime.

1231
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 1: I've found that you can pretty much rent or buy

1232
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 1: digitally Mad Love anywhere that you would rent or buy

1233
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 1: a movie. You can also find it on DVD, sometimes

1234
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 1: thrown unlovingly into a multi pack alongside far more forgotten

1235
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: films of the era. I watched it on a nice

1236
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: DVD edition that I rented from Video Drum here in Atlanta.

1237
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,640
Speaker 1: They had a nice historical commentary track. I mean, it

1238
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 1: was clearly somebody sort of reading notes about the film,

1239
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: but it was quite interesting. I think this was from

1240
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: the Legends of Horror box set.

1241
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:52,759
Speaker 2: Interesting.

1242
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, as far as I know, there's not a blu

1243
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: ray of this film, at least not yet.

1244
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 2: I didn't see one. Okay, one last question before we

1245
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 2: wrap it up. What does Stephen Orlac do the rest

1246
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 2: of his life? So he maybe he just can't play

1247
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 2: piano ever again, but he's good at throwing knives? Has

1248
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 2: that become his new profession? Like they're reunited at the end,

1249
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 2: Yvonne is saved, they embrace, Oh, we're all right now,

1250
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 2: And I guess I will enter my life in the

1251
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 2: circus as a knife thrower.

1252
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I so identified with doctor Gogel that

1253
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: after he was dead, I was just kind of like,

1254
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 1: all right, it doesn't matter, you know, But I did

1255
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 1: think about it more after you brought it up, And yeah,

1256
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 1: I guess I imagine him taking up knife throwing, professional

1257
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 1: knife throwing and that becomes like his new traveling act.

1258
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: And maybe she gets to go back into theater. And

1259
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, because now it's like his profession is more

1260
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 1: aligned with hers. Right, maybe they work together. It may

1261
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 1: be a show together.

1262
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:49,599
Speaker 2: Okay, I see, Yeah, they do a stage show where

1263
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 2: he throws knives and she screams while the knives are thrown.

1264
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 1: The fabulous orlocks Orlocks coming to a theater tent near you.

1265
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 2: I love it. Okay, we wrap up here.

1266
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go ahead and wrap up this edition of

1267
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. Obviously, we'd love to hear from everybody

1268
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: out there. Did you enjoy Mad Love? If you have,

1269
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: you watched it? What you think of it? Do you

1270
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: agree with this? Disagree with this? Do you have additional

1271
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 1: insights that we may have missed? Let us know. We'd

1272
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:22,680
Speaker 1: also love to hear from you. Do you feel like

1273
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 1: this is a good use of our time producing episodes

1274
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:26,840
Speaker 1: of Weird House Cinema.

1275
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 2: We've heard both ways so far, have we?

1276
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just I'm blind to the criticism, but I

1277
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 1: haven't noticed anybody saying not to.

1278
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:34,600
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know.

1279
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 1: We heard from one person who said this was not

1280
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 1: for them, but Okay, well, and that's understandable. Is this

1281
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: show this If the Friday night weird House Cinema isn't

1282
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 1: for you, just stick to the Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

1283
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 1: Our feelings will not be hurt. But let us know

1284
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 1: either way, we're excited to hear from our listeners. In

1285
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you want to check out other episodes

1286
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,680
Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find us

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01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Again, Tuesdays and Thursdays you

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01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: get the core episodes, and then on Fridays we're dishing

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01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: out some weird house cinema. If you want to find

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01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 1: us really quickly, you can just go to a stuff

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01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: tobowermind dot com that will shoot you over to the

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01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,640
Speaker 1: iHeart page for our show. There's a button on there

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01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: for a store. You can go there if you want

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01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: to buy a T shirt or a sticker with some

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01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: sort of you know, design or our logo on it.

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01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,760
Speaker 1: I will say we have a new shirt design in

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Speaker 1: there by Joe Mruck, a listener of the show who's

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01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: also a self employed illustrator. You can find out more

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01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 1: about his work at red Buffalo dot org. But he

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01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 1: created this wonderful shirt that's a Pandora motif Pandora opening

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01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: this box of interesting, challenging and dangerous ideas, various show

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01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: topics swirling around her beautiful design. You can get it

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01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: on a shirt or a sticker or you know, a

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01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 1: poster type thing, so go check that out. You can

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01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: just click on the store button and I'll take you

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01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: right to it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we'll get a sausage man shirt next. We can

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01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 2: only only some with it with sausage man and and

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01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 2: and go gole is oorlock together. I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. We'll figure it out, okay, anyway, huge thanks

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Speaker 2: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

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01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

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01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other suggest a

1314
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 2: topic for the future, just to say hi, you can

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01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

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01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 2: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.