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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're weekly podcast that actually comes out twice a week

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Speaker 2: that I've been calling a weekly podcast the entire time.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest today is

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Speaker 2: Mio Wong. Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, Hello, I'm back. We're doing it again right now,

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Speaker 3: doing the Revolution.

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Speaker 2: I know it's funny, how excited I am about this

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Speaker 2: failed revolution, but it, like whatever, it genuinely changed an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of things about world history and very positive ways.

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Speaker 2: And like what also changed world history? I don't have

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Speaker 2: to pivot to introducing Sophie. I can just introduce Sophie. Hi, Sophie,

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Speaker 2: you're my producer.

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Speaker 1: I want a good pivot. What do you mean, give

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Speaker 1: me a good pivot?

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Speaker 2: Ah? Okay, Uh, what's that behind you? It's a different topic.

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Speaker 2: Our audio engineer, Rory, how was that?

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Speaker 1: You did it?

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Speaker 3: Hi? Ri?

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Speaker 1: Hiri?

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Speaker 3: Hi?

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Speaker 2: RORI me and we can't continue until you say, Hi, Rory.

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Speaker 2: It's my one obsession. Oh I missed it. I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: I I just said it really high set.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Hi, Roy, Yeah, and here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: Zoom fucking gates that out.

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Speaker 2: Zoom. Hey wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: Does it let me do any of my fun little

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Speaker 1: squeaky things. It's so mean. I'll get to like a

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Speaker 1: good squeak in in an episode and then nobody else

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Speaker 1: will hear it besides my dogs.

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Speaker 2: Oh r, I p the squeaks, but not the dogs.

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Speaker 2: The dogs are great.

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Speaker 3: The dogs are great.

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Speaker 2: My dog is incredibly happy about the fact that the

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Speaker 2: sun stays out and the weather is warm. In a

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Speaker 2: couple months he will not be as happy because the

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Speaker 2: weather will be too warm. But for now, literally, he

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Speaker 2: just spends all of his time sitting in the yard

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Speaker 2: just staring at the sky happy and it rules.

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Speaker 3: That's so cute.

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Speaker 2: And I can see him from the like when I'm

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Speaker 2: washing dishes, i can see him. I can see my

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Speaker 2: yard for my I'm just but like and he's just

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Speaker 2: like happily staring at nothing, and I'm just like, this

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Speaker 2: is nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when it gets too warm, just you know, put

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Speaker 1: him in the car and drive many hours, many hours.

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Speaker 2: Air condition I'm air conditioning outside.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm just trying to trick you into bringingtront a visit.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's true, because you all summers are nicer.

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Speaker 1: Yeahin tra rain tra.

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Speaker 2: Well, I get to do these things because there's a

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Speaker 2: decent standard of living where I live for now, but

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Speaker 2: it's quickly dropping. And actually that's not true. It's really

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Speaker 2: bad here. Everyone I know is completely broke. But where

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Speaker 2: else there was a bad time that had a revolution.

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Speaker 2: This will sound really prescient a year from now, or

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Speaker 2: wildly optimistic. It will sound naively optimistic or prescient. It's

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Speaker 2: only real. Two options is hungry in nineteen fifty six.

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Speaker 2: So you have the po TOFI circle right, and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we should what if conditions were slightly improved? And they

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Speaker 2: call for protest. That's a solidarity protest with the workers

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Speaker 2: on trial in Poland for the revolt that I was

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Speaker 2: talking about. The you know, the uprisings are starting to

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Speaker 2: happen around the especially the satellite states. They're rarer inside

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Speaker 2: the USSR, although they happen there too. Hungarian officials go

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Speaker 2: back and forth constantly about whether or not they're going

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Speaker 2: to let this happen. So all of these groups at

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Speaker 2: first and there's a period where they're allowed to do it.

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Speaker 2: So all these groups, including the official Young Communists, meet

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Speaker 2: up on October twenty third, and they march to the

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Speaker 2: Statue of Joseph Bem who was a Polish guy who

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Speaker 2: had joined the Hungarian fight against the Austrians in eighteen

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Speaker 2: forty eight. And I really like this. I like that

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Speaker 2: the thing that kicks off the revolution is a solidarity

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Speaker 2: march for another country. And I like that the symbol

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Speaker 2: that they go to is the statue for the Polish

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Speaker 2: guy who threw down for the Austrians, you know that

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Speaker 2: as they go off to go throw down for the Poles.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yeap.

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Speaker 2: The Minister of the Interior was like, oh, we got

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Speaker 2: to cancel this. But then the government was like, oh shit,

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Speaker 2: it's too late. And so they're like, never mind, you're

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Speaker 2: allowed to do it. And so there's this thing that

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Speaker 2: when the government tells you can't do something, if you

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Speaker 2: get enough people, the government says, never mind, you're allowed to.

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Speaker 2: Quite often, every single marsh that has ever attempted to

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Speaker 2: get a permit that like probably shouldn't have tried to

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Speaker 2: get a permit. It's like I was like doing wh

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Speaker 2: flashbacks to the seat the DNC sixty eight, all the

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Speaker 2: permitting bullshites like ah, yes, many such cases.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It turns out power concedes nothing without a demand, does

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Speaker 2: Frederick Douglas put it, sometimes if you demand, they will concede. Shit, yeah, no, yeah,

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Speaker 2: if you if you present force, it doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be violent force. It has to be force that is

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Speaker 2: capable of mass disruption. That is what puts the state

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Speaker 2: in a situation where they want to negotiate with you

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Speaker 2: instead of crush you. Sometimes it puts them in a

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Speaker 2: position where they want to do both. Has this about

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Speaker 2: to happen to all of these people? So the government

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Speaker 2: they're like, all right, you're allowed to do it. But

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Speaker 2: they get on the radio and they're like, this is

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Speaker 2: counter revolutiontionary. Revolutions famously counter revolutionary. Oh uh huh. There's

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Speaker 2: a hundred thousand people at this march. I am a

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Speaker 2: little bit. I've read multiple sources to say those one

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand people, But there's like they say one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand people also for the Polish one. I think this

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Speaker 2: is just a nice round number that people reach for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's just like a large Yeah, you need

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Speaker 3: a large number, you just yeah.

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Speaker 2: And they probably don't have like a press helicopter that

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Speaker 2: has like freedom of this press and is like doing

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Speaker 2: the crowd counting and stuff, you know, And that's always

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Speaker 2: like it's.

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Speaker 3: Hard to count crowd sizes, like it just is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: The way that they do it is that they you

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Speaker 2: pick like a city block, and you count the number

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Speaker 2: of people in it, and then you like count if

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Speaker 2: it's a march, you then like count the number of

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Speaker 2: blocks worth of people that go through that block. It's

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Speaker 2: really I used to think about the stuff all the time.

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Speaker 2: He's to go to protest like every day, and uh,

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Speaker 2: and everyone's really bad at guessing anyway, whatever, I think

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Speaker 2: we all know this, Okay. When I was a young

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Speaker 2: radical and counting lots of protos, I didn't give student

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Speaker 2: protests and protesters enough to do. I bought into the

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Speaker 2: lie that mainstream media sells us, which is that college

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Speaker 2: protesters are just like people playing at politics with no

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Speaker 2: real impact. This is a lie. I think fewer people

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Speaker 2: buy into this lie these days. For example, the day

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Speaker 2: before we recorded this, police broke down the doors of

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Speaker 2: multiple student activists houses in Ipslante, Michigan, because students living

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Speaker 2: there had been involved in pro Palestinian protests.

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Speaker 1: You were close, ips Lanny.

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Speaker 2: Ips Lanny. We should leave in me being wrong. I

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Speaker 2: think it's funny. Maybe it's not, do you know what ips.

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Speaker 1: Lanny's famous for.

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Speaker 2: The cops that broke down the door.

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Speaker 1: So for having a water tower that looks like a penis.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's funny too.

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Speaker 1: Spent a lot of time there.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, Well you in the future probably have more

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Speaker 2: information about this than I do. But turns out now

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Speaker 2: that I read history books all day, I know that

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Speaker 2: student protests are invaluable because they're the start of a

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Speaker 2: really large percentage of revolutions, in particular once they connect

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Speaker 2: with the working class. So these hundred thousand protesters, they're

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Speaker 2: marching around the big Dick water No wait, no, different

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Speaker 2: time and place. These hundred thousand protesters they start by

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Speaker 2: going to Parliament and saying shit like we want m

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Speaker 2: Ra Nag back, basically bring back the new course right

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Speaker 2: because nog has been set aside, which I think is

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Speaker 2: the name of the frengie with working class ethics in

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Speaker 2: Deep Space nine. But I don't know if that's related

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Speaker 2: or not. I like to imagine this is where we

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Speaker 2: get to that the Mia hack and fraud has never

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Speaker 2: seen Deep Space nine thing and every trans girls and

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Speaker 2: trying to show it to me, and I'm like, would.

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Speaker 3: I have time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay, it's it's fine. It's nineties TV. There's

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Speaker 2: like so many good like Xena or Buffy or Deep

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Speaker 2: Space nine. Like there's like so many good like you

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Speaker 2: can see where good stuff came out of it. You know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: actually I like Deep Space nine more than anything else.

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Speaker 2: I just said, Yeah, Buffy has yeah, structural issues. But

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Speaker 2: you know, the list of demands besides, of course, a

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Speaker 2: season two of Firefly, which no one's demanding anymore, because whatever.

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Speaker 2: The list of demands of these protesters in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 2: six is to quote in paraphrase from the Movement Communist Report,

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Speaker 2: the Belgian and French Communist Report, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: it's in the sources. It has some of the most

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Speaker 2: complete Like here's a list of every council they set up.

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Speaker 2: Here's a list of all of the militants. Here's a

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Speaker 2: list of all of these things. It's very sourced and

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Speaker 2: it's very backed up. These claims about like you know,

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Speaker 2: it was mostly workers or whatever. Anyway, Okay, there are

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Speaker 2: a list of demands. They want new party leadership elected,

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Speaker 2: they want nog as prime minister, they want mul party elections.

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Speaker 2: They want to get the Russian troops out, they want

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Speaker 2: economy led by people who specialize in economy and not

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Speaker 2: the Communist Party, which makes a lot of sense, right,

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Speaker 2: You're like, we're all in like an economic tailspin. We're like,

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Speaker 2: what if instead of picking the economy based on ideology,

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Speaker 2: we picked it on like how we get to eat

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Speaker 2: the most bread, you know, relax agricultural quotas and support

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Speaker 2: independent producers, a review of all political trials, and like

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Speaker 2: releasing people. And this one's interesting. They wanted to use

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Speaker 2: the eighteen forty eight Hungarian flag, which is the red,

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Speaker 2: white and green stripe, but without the red star and

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Speaker 2: crossed hammer and wheat that the Communist one had. And

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Speaker 2: they actually win this the next year, I believe, but

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Speaker 2: nothing I've read, I know, nothing I've read since. And

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Speaker 2: then they won their demand. But as I was trying

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Speaker 2: to like read about the flag, I was like, wait,

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Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty seven, it switched over back again. So

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Speaker 2: they win the most symbolic one, and they want freedom

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Speaker 2: of speech in the press, and so they've got this

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Speaker 2: march and they go to the radio station because that's

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Speaker 2: where propaganda is getting sent out over the airwaves. And

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Speaker 2: I've read that they tore down a stalin statue on

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Speaker 2: the way. I've read that they like split up in

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Speaker 2: a two different groups, and one group went tore down

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Speaker 2: the Stalin statue and one went to the radio station.

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Speaker 2: Both of these things happened. Couldn't promise you the linearity

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Speaker 2: of it. They reached the radio station and the AVO,

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Speaker 2: the secret police that's been around since Nazi times and before,

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Speaker 2: are guarding the place, and for a while it seems

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Speaker 2: like no one will be allowed in. Then finally the

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Speaker 2: police led a delegation inside. They're like, all right, you

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Speaker 2: can send a couple people inside. And then two hours

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Speaker 2: go by and they're like, where are those people we

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Speaker 2: sent in? And the crowd was like, well, what the fuck?

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Speaker 2: And so they maybe lunged forward and the AVO opened

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Speaker 2: fire with machine guns.

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Speaker 3: Oh Jesus fucking Christ, Oh.

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Speaker 2: God, the crowd grabbed the machine guns and shooting at

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Speaker 2: the station. Two hundred protesters were killed, forty cops were killed,

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Speaker 2: and the revolution begins.

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Speaker 3: Also, I just want to point out that this is

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Speaker 3: like a perfectly American twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five

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Speaker 3: moment of like every time a Polesta Union camment would

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Speaker 3: send a negotiators to negotiate with the university that arrest

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Speaker 3: the negotiator. It's like the only the worst people in

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Speaker 3: history do this, shits like us in the Soviets society,

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Speaker 3: great great stuff, great stuff.

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Speaker 2: The British did a lot of Like Yeah, the thing that, like,

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Speaker 2: in my mind was always an exaggerated thing for fiction,

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Speaker 2: which is you get together a peace conference where you

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Speaker 2: invite all of the enemy leaders, especially if they're sort

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Speaker 2: of like the Scottish clans or whatever, right, and you

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Speaker 2: bring them all in one place and then you just

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Speaker 2: poison them all and murder them all or whatever. I

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Speaker 2: always thought that was like hack fiction. Shit, No one

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Speaker 2: was that evil. I've read across that, run across that

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Speaker 2: like at least three times while study in the British Empire.

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Speaker 2: It's like like the worst people in all history.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Finnished Americans. So it's like, God, really terrible.

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Speaker 2: I hate it.

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Speaker 3: We hate it.

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Speaker 2: And so the Hungarian army was sent to put them

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Speaker 2: down outside the radio station, and the soldiers were like, actually,

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Speaker 2: you can just have our guns instead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would rather not start massacring a bunch of

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Speaker 3: my friends, Like fuck.

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Speaker 2: This, And so some of them like gave the crowd

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Speaker 2: their guns and then left, and some of them were like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm actually just like with you, and I'm using my gun,

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Speaker 2: but I'm irritating. Eventually they seize the radio station and

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Speaker 2: do you know what they started advertising, I mean, broadcasting

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Speaker 2: demands to buy the products and services support the show.

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Speaker 2: They were ahead of their time. They were supporting Wow.

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Speaker 3: Wow, the first podcasters.

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Speaker 2: I know. Yeah, before this, no one had mattresses or

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Speaker 2: therapy or gambling anyway, the origin of the modern world. Truly,

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Speaker 2: here's the mads and we're back. And so yeah, they

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Speaker 2: were like, we're having this revolution now. And at this

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Speaker 2: point workers had been part of this first march, but

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Speaker 2: it was largely a student ish, like youth march kind

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Speaker 2: of thing, you know. But as soon as it kicks off,

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Speaker 2: the workers are like, all right, let's do it. And

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Speaker 2: fortunately they've all been industrializing, so they all work at

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Speaker 2: like gun factories and shit, yep, and so they're just like, here,

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Speaker 2: we brought you all the guns we made. Here's a

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Speaker 2: fucking tractor trailer full of the guns.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those rules, and then.

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Speaker 2: They all start building marricads. Of course, according to the

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Speaker 2: communist press at the time, these folks weren't revolutionaries. They

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Speaker 2: were armed bandits.

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Speaker 3: Oh they didn't even have the Nazi line yet they

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Speaker 3: were on armed bandits. Oh yeah, incredible, incredible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, I took them a while to develop the

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Speaker 2: technology of calling them Nazis.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, And it's funny because I like the arm

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Speaker 2: bandits one. Because this is, as far as I can tell,

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Speaker 2: this is like code for people who dislike our authoritarian rule,

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Speaker 2: but specifically when communists and socialists and anarchists dislike their rule.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because this is the thing I said about Makno

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Speaker 3: like in the Russian Revolution. I was like, what hold on,

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Speaker 3: I've seen this one before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, and you can still find it today on

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Speaker 2: Twitter dot com when it readirects to x IS people

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Speaker 2: claiming the fucking the Ukrainian anarchists and probably these people

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Speaker 2: are all bandits. But as you pointed out, now they've

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Speaker 2: moved on to calling these people Nazis. Except I'm getting

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Speaker 2: ahead of myself, because do you know what they've first

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Speaker 2: the communists first said about all of this, nothing's happening,

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Speaker 2: nothing's happening. Very sure.

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Speaker 3: I got in one gut in one.

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Speaker 2: Despite four hundred and fifty people being arrested, two hundred

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Speaker 2: protesters killed, forty cops killed by day two. The communist

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Speaker 2: press buries the story, or, to quote internal documents, Comrade

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Speaker 2: Khrushchev recommends that we not cover the situation in Hungary

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Speaker 2: and our press until the cause of everything have been

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Speaker 2: well clarified. Oh my god, I can't say anything because

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Speaker 2: we don't know what We don't want to get it wrong.

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Speaker 2: So just not tell anyone, ye.

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Speaker 3: Journalism practice. Yeah, yeah, So simply do not report of

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Speaker 3: massacres like yeah, because we don't know what caused them. Like,

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Speaker 3: who knows where those bullets came from. They could have

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Speaker 3: like flown at it. They could they could have flowed backwards.

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Speaker 2: Who knows.

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Speaker 3: Look magic for the sky, capitalist demons, You never know.

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Speaker 3: Bullets come so many places.

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Speaker 2: They've been celebrating and shooting into the air and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't fell down.

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Speaker 3: They felled out, Yeah, rained from the sky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And uh. And and Nog, who the crowd is

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Speaker 2: ostensibly supportive of, he did not start off supportive of

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Speaker 2: this revolution. He was immediately put into power to mollify

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Speaker 2: the rebels, so they actually get one of their demands,

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Speaker 2: like right off, they're like, all right, Nog's in charge again.

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Speaker 2: Partly because like Nog is like, not not their guy,

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Speaker 2: you know, like the Soviets, They're like, eh, we didn't

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Speaker 2: like your new course thing. We put in a strong guy.

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Speaker 2: But Nog wasn't anti communist or something like that, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so immediately he's in power, and his whole line

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Speaker 2: for the next week is like, stop fighting. We will

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Speaker 2: punish anyone who revolts. The revolution is over. We won

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Speaker 2: go home. Oh, no one listened to him.

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Speaker 3: That rules. That rules, because that shit works. Sometimes people

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Speaker 3: sometimes will be like, hey, it's over, you've won, go home,

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Speaker 3: Go home. And then I know, like the refreshing continues.

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Speaker 3: But good for them, good for them.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting too, because this is the line by

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Speaker 2: which people are able to kind of spin a web

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Speaker 2: of deceit around the Hungarian revolution, is that they're able

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Speaker 2: to kind of be like, oh, it all sort of

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Speaker 2: revolved around Nog. He's the leader of it and all

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Speaker 2: of this stuff, and it's a way to ignore the workers'

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Speaker 2: councils that are about to get started.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's also like they dragged him, kicking and

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Speaker 3: screaming in to the revelation.

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Speaker 2: Life totally totally, and he's he probably knows this is

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Speaker 2: the end. Of him, you know, like, yeah, Russian forces

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Speaker 2: show up right the fuck away by day two, October

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Speaker 2: twenty fourth, because they were stationed about fifty miles away already,

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Speaker 2: because Hungary was already an occupied nation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which, by the way, I just want to point out,

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Speaker 3: like how ue hinged, Like having other countries station their

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Speaker 3: armies in your country is not a normal thing. That

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Speaker 3: is only a thing that happens to like colonies and

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Speaker 3: countries are being occupied. Like that's like I feel I

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Speaker 3: feel like he just has not God mentioned here, but

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Speaker 3: mia the United States does that all over the world.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh uh huh. Totally normal things on the military

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Speaker 3: basis of all of these countries, Completely reasonable and normal.

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Speaker 2: But if you don't like the USSR, that means you

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Speaker 2: like the United States.

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Speaker 3: I am going to become the joker. Yeah. No, that

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Speaker 3: because like I imagine you sign this like we're all packed

357
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Speaker 3: and you're like, all right, we all got each other's backs,

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Speaker 3: and you're like, you know what it is.

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Speaker 2: It's just like the end of season four of Lower

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Speaker 2: Decks is what it is. But I don't want to

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Speaker 2: spoil it, but if you watch season four of Lower Decks,

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Speaker 2: you'll know what I'm talking about anyway. I just watched

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Speaker 2: the episode last night again.

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Speaker 3: Hell yeah.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, they're like, oh, we're all equals, and they're

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Speaker 2: like just getting some people are more equal than others.

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Speaker 2: So people start fighting. There's hundreds of tanks and thousands

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Speaker 2: of soldiers from the USSR suddenly in Budapest and around

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Speaker 2: the country, and people just start fighting them, and they

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Speaker 2: come really close to pulling it off. For the first

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Speaker 2: week they they win the first week. They're dismantling tanks

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Speaker 2: with kitchen utensils. I do not know what that means,

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Speaker 2: but I ran across it that rules.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just like just imagining someone with like I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, so like immediate thing, it's like, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: they're unscrewing bolts with knives or something. But now I'm like, no,

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Speaker 3: they got a rolling pin. They're going like this, They're

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Speaker 3: just whacking it. They're just whacking it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, here the rules, and it just specifically said they're

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Speaker 2: dismandling tanks with kitchen utentils and gasoline. I suspect that

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Speaker 2: gasoline was more useful in this project.

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Speaker 3: Probably, Yeah, yeah, ghasoline very useful substance for dis mantling

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Speaker 3: a tank, as many people have learned.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of molotops going on, and they're

385
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Speaker 2: not mollified by Nog and honestly, they kind of don't

386
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Speaker 2: like him very much anymore at this point. And when

387
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 2: it really becomes a revolution isn't just that they've had

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Speaker 2: some of their demands met. It's that the workers and

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Speaker 2: students get together and set up a revolutionary Council, which

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Speaker 2: is made up of representatives elected by local councils from

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Speaker 2: all of these different workplaces and shit like that.

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Speaker 3: That rules there, the rules. It's so awesome. I didn't

393
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 3: know the students were involved in this. That's so cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't know as much about student councils during this.

395
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Speaker 3: I know about the student's involvement in setting all of

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00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 3: this up, and I know about later they're gonna have

397
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 3: soldier councils as well. But yeah, so they get together

398
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Speaker 3: and the Revolutionary Council calls for a general strike and

399
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Speaker 3: they're like, do not put down your weapons, do not

400
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Speaker 3: be mollified by Nog. And the general strike sweeps Budapest

401
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Speaker 3: in much of the country, and I've read it described

402
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Speaker 3: as total, like just incredible. Yeah, the revolutionary councils are

403
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 3: built from delegates coming from the workers' council, soldiers councils,

404
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Speaker 3: and peasant councils. They go around and disarm all the

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Speaker 3: secret police. They start sending delegations to nog who's like, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 3: we'll please, we'll make it better. Just just put down

407
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Speaker 3: the guns and let us be in charge of you again.

408
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 3: I swear you know. People from the country side started

409
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Speaker 3: delivering food directly into the city bypassing the state apparatus

410
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: of like food distribution. They finally did it. They finally

411
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Speaker 3: did the think of Potkins said in the Conquest of Bread,

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Speaker 3: where you have to get people from the country. I

413
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Speaker 3: had to send food to the cities. They finally did it.

414
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 3: Finally did it. I guess the anarchists has Spain did it.

415
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Speaker 3: But like wow, it's amazing, it's amazing the whole thing.

416
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,719
Speaker 3: They could have saved the Russian Revolution from the beginning.

417
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 3: They actually did it. Yeah, they really are doing the

418
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Speaker 3: Russian Revolution. But like they're actually like doing it, like

419
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 3: they saw out the councils. They're like allying with the peasants.

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Speaker 3: They have food moving into the cities. It's amazing, I know,

421
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 3: it's like, it's like one, if the Russian Revolution didn't suck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow. And what's annoying is because if the Russian

423
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Speaker 2: Revolution had done it this way instead, it wouldn't have

424
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: had the Red Army as its enemy, and so they

425
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 2: probably would have won, you know. Yeah, And so some

426
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,919
Speaker 2: folks started divving up the land. They sort of a

427
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Speaker 2: lot of places decollectivized, but i'd like back into small

428
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Speaker 2: holders and things like that. Other places were like, fuck, yeah,

429
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Speaker 2: our collective is finally in charge of itself. Yeah, and

430
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Speaker 2: had like bottom up control of the collectivized farms. One newspaper,

431
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Speaker 2: The Observer, wrote, quote, although the general strike is in being,

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Speaker 2: there is no centrally organized industry, the workers are nevertheless

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Speaker 2: taking it upon themselves to keep essential services for the

434
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 2: purposes which they determine and support. So yeah, the general

435
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 2: strike people are actually working. They're just working for the

436
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 2: revolution to continue. The quote workers' councils and industrial districts

437
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 2: have undertaken the distribution of essential goods and food to

438
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 2: the population in order to keep them alive. It is

439
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 2: self help in a setting of anarchy that rules. Yeah. Ah,

440
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 2: that's so.

441
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 3: Cool, And it's also it's a really interesting look at

442
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 3: A question that I get a lot is like, if

443
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 3: everyone goes on strike, how are you going to feed people?

444
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: And the answer is, you don't just go on strike,

445
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: you take control of everything. Yeah, this has happened a

446
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 3: bunch of times in long term general strikes around the world,

447
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 3: including the Seattle nineteen nineteen nineteen. Yeah, general strike that

448
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 3: continued like all the essential services. Yeah, there's a great

449
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 3: FDR line where he calls this is like after Seattle,

450
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 3: but he calls the US. It's like the I forget

451
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 3: how many states ahead of the times, it's like the

452
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 3: forty eight states of the Seattle Soviet because.

453
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, So as the revolution goes on, more and

454
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: more of the Hungarian army is defecting, and they get

455
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 2: like whole like fucking leader people with all the troops,

456
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 2: and they're like starting to like get mortars and not

457
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: a lot of them, but like they're starting to get

458
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: some heavy weaponry. And the Soviet troops keep massacring unarmed demonstrators.

459
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: Because it's a weird mix, right, It's like there's a

460
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 2: kind of a war going on, but there's also just

461
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 2: like big unarmed demonstrations happening everywhere.

462
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: You know, and so of course they're shooting that, they're

463
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 3: shooting the workers in this This is like this is

464
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 3: always the most like horrifying elements of this to me

465
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 3: is just the number of like Okay, when you're fighting

466
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 3: the Nazis, right, like you know from the beginning that

467
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: these people want to kill you, right, Like that's you

468
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: know that that's what they are, the Nazis. But it's

469
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 3: like there's just something viscerally horrifying to me about like

470
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: just the communist parties feeding the working class to the

471
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 3: machine guns. Yeah, which just I don't know, because it

472
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 3: just brings me to such a profound sense of grief

473
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 3: and just like horror that like you're doing this to

474
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 3: the people that you're supposed to be like liberating, Like, yeah,

475
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 3: what the fuck is wrong with you people?

476
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: Oh God, there's gonna be a good quote about that

477
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 2: later from one of the people who fought in this revolution,

478
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: Ugh Onward. On April twenty sixth, the rebels do what

479
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: all good revolutionaries do, and they open the prisons, and

480
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: if you read some reports that are kind of trying

481
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,959
Speaker 2: to like whitewash the whole thing, they're like and then

482
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: they freed all the political prisoners, which is true, but

483
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: they did that by freeing all of the prisoners that rules.

484
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 3: That absolutely rules, Like we love that.

485
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's way better that way. They freed a

486
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: seventeen thousand because also, like you're in an authoritarian regime,

487
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 2: Like I already I think all prisoners are political, period,

488
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: but like when you're an authoritarian regime, they're like extra political.

489
00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: You know.

490
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, And people, the longer you've lived into one of

491
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 3: these regimes, the easier it is to understand where there's

492
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: you know, because you could just like watch your fucking

493
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: neighbor being dragged off. But like in the US, there's

494
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: like this I don't know it. People are really precious

495
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: about like there being a justice system that like sends

496
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 3: guilty people to this punishment they deserve instead of the

497
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 3: thing that actually happens, which is just like we're torturing

498
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 3: a bunch of people.

499
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think about this comic all the time, some

500
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 2: web comic that was like oh yeah, don't go into

501
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 2: my basement. There's a guy down there, and you're like,

502
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: wait what They're like, ah, I'm trying to steal my

503
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: car a liile. I guess I'm just keeping him locked

504
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 2: in the basement. You're like, that sounds monstrous.

505
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like.

506
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 2: And they free seventeen thousand prisoners in total, a quarter

507
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: of whom are quote unquote political prisoners. The rest are

508
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 2: quote civil prisoners. From the freed prisoners, they learn about

509
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 2: all the torture and nightmarish conditions in the prisons.

510
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: Oh god. Yeah.

511
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, so the Tanky line on this revolution is

512
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: that it was all a CIA plot and or fascists

513
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: and or before his arm bandits, and before that it

514
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 2: wasn't even happening whatever. I looked into this as much

515
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: as I could. I wanted to figure out where the

516
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: like kernel of truth might be. I spent way too

517
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: long in this particular part of it. I wanted to

518
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: spend more time about them dismantling tanks with kitchen utensils.

519
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was not a CIA plot. There are

520
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: a ton of recently declassified documents from the US and

521
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 2: the USSR about this whole revolution. The CIA had only

522
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: one agent in the country. Eisenhower was sympathetic to the rebels,

523
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 2: but didn't actually want to help because he didn't want

524
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: to turn the Cold War hot. There was one avenue

525
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 2: of Western intervention in the revolution Free Radio Europe. Free

526
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: Radio Europe was a series of propaganda radio stations that

527
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: would broadcast over the Iron Curtain with very specific state

528
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: controlled plans to disseminate specific propaganda, which is a very

529
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: you know, it's the kind of thing that we got

530
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 2: mad at these union for doing. We were doing too, right, yeah,

531
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: we that gets air quotes. There was a scathing internal

532
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: report in December nineteen fifty six, which is after the revolution,

533
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: is more or less crushed about how the Hungarian section

534
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: of Free Radio Europe kind of went rogue and off

535
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: script from what they were supposed to do. I don't

536
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: know if this is the US just trying to cover

537
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: its ass, but this is an internal skating report, not

538
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: a public one, so I think they were genuinely annoyed

539
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: about Free Radio Europe Hungary being like, yeah, revolution, here's

540
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: how to dismantle a tank, like, you know, like yeah,

541
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: partly because it's a lot of people who had lived

542
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: in Hungary, who had had the FLEA, who were running

543
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 2: these radio stations. Yeah, so they're probably going off script.

544
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: Free Radio Europe pushed the revolution hard, and they did

545
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: so unjustly and by lying as well. They broadcast lots

546
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: of specifics about how to defeat tanks and fight gorilla insurgencies,

547
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: but they heavily implied that Western help was on its way,

548
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: that if the rebels centralized their military structure, NATO would

549
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: show up and throw down and it would be a real

550
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: war and they would have allies in it. This was

551
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: never going to happen. This was false hope. So that's

552
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: the like I can genuinely say, like that was foreign intervention.

553
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, yeah, But it's also like, you know, you

554
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 3: could see what they're trying to do here, right, which

555
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 3: is like they don't like NATO doesn't actually want a

556
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: state run by workers councils, no, like appearing there, Like

557
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: that's also a really bad look end for those So

558
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: you know they're trying to be like, well, if you like,

559
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: if you make like a Western style army, like we'll

560
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: help you.

561
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: And it's like, yeah, totally. By October twenty eighth, they've

562
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: negotiated a ceasefire because they did really well without Western

563
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: help for a long time. They negotiate a ceasefire to

564
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: the Moscow loyalists, and the government take off to Moscow

565
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: and they fucking defeated the Soviets and it seems at

566
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: that moment the real decision is like, do we take

567
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: moderate reforms from NAG or do we keep fighting to

568
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: win it all? Do we want actual freedom and bottom

569
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: up organization or do we want like socialist democracy. That

570
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: seems like they're two options on the table. By October thirtieth,

571
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: the Soviets have left Budapest and the Revolutionary councils with

572
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: reservations are like, fuck it, we'll take NOG. We'll take

573
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: NOG with like multi party democracy, like all of our demands,

574
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: et cetera. Right, And during all of this, the borders

575
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: finally open up to Yugoslavia and Austria. Since Austria is neutral,

576
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: most people want to leave to go that way. Western

577
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: journalists of various stripes come into the country to cover

578
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: what's happening, which I gotta admit, I've gotta be fucking

579
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: bravest shit, right, because you're like, oh, the border's open,

580
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: pretty sure. The border is only opened for a moment, right, Yep,

581
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: ye for.

582
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: A little bit of time. It's like, yep, we're going

583
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: into a war zone to do something not the smartest,

584
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 3: but yeah, someone's.

585
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: Got to do it. It's like darting under like a

586
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: closing garage door, you know, like and it's one of

587
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: the most important things that came out of the revolution

588
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: was the fact that Western journalists of different political stripes,

589
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: including communists, went there and saw firsthand what was happening. Yeah,

590
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: now that there's freedom of press, Like literally they've only

591
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: had this revolution for a week, there's suddenly twenty five

592
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: daily papers.

593
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 3: I really are communists. Anyone who argus these people aren't

594
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: communists I know, does not know. Paul right.

595
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: Probably half of them are just like the Hungarian Workers

596
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: Socialist Party of Hungary whatever, aryan.

597
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: Socialist Workers Party, which is a different entity.

598
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: They hate each other.

599
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: They have been ancient. They have an ancient, one day

600
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: old enmity with the Workers Party.

601
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: The new government cabinet is made up of a couple people,

602
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: the Communists who are former Communist Party but they're no

603
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: longer calling themselves. That have three members, the small owners

604
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: have two members. There's one peasant seat and one Social

605
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: Democrat seat. That's the like I don't know if that's

606
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: what I was going to stay, but that was there, like,

607
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 2: oh shit, we're doing this today, you know, so not

608
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: a right wing revolution when you could like maybe be

609
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: like the two small owners, but like, probably not. They

610
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: might just mean that you can actually have a small

611
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: business in a socialist society if you like don't employ

612
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: wage labor and whatever. Anyway, what does this new government do? Well,

613
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: they actually go all the way with it. They formally

614
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: announced that they're leaving the Warsaw Pact on Halloween. Well

615
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: it gets announced in the morning, but the meeting was

616
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: on Halloween.

617
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: Hell.

618
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they announced that they're leaving the packed to become

619
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: a neutral country, and they beg the UN for help.

620
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: So this is the other thing about the US intervention.

621
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: They fucking begged for US intervention. That's all they wanted.

622
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not I'm sure everyone, but this is

623
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: their hail Mary. They have taken control of their own government.

624
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: But Russia has a lot of fucking military yeah, and

625
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: international help is not coming. The Western nations leave Hungary

626
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: and the Hungarian people to the Red Army. But do

627
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: you know what would have saved them?

628
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: The products and services support this podcast all bulletproof if

629
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 3: you wear Nope, probably can't say that, Nope, no, no, no,

630
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: you know what, maybe the ads are unrelated to the content.

631
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: You all ever thought about that? I think about it

632
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: all the time. It keeps me up at night.

633
00:32:51,680 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: Here's the ads, and we're back.

634
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: So the revolutionary council system doesn't just give up because

635
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: it's important endorse noog. It's not like, oh, weve endorse nog,

636
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: like time to dismantle. That's all we were gonna do.

637
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: They're like, no, we are going to create essentially a

638
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: dual power system. We are going to continue to have

639
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: this as a sort of political entity. They get together

640
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: and they put together a nine point program, including things

641
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: like the factory belongs to the workers, and the supreme

642
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: element of authority is the workers Council, elected democratically by

643
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: the workers. Shit like that, Holy shit, they're doing communism,

644
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: I know.

645
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: Oh my god, to the horror of the Western and

646
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: the Eastern world.

647
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: They're doing the thing. Yeah exactly. A nag is like, yes, yes,

648
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: it's probably Please just go back to work and please

649
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: go back to work. And then the workers councils they're

650
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 2: like playing nice with the government. But I think I

651
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: think they're trying to just like flex a little bit.

652
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: They're like, all right, we're going to return to work

653
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: on November fifth. Guy fox masks suddenly appear on all

654
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: their faces at the same time. On October thirty first,

655
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: Moscow seemed to give up. They published a statement that

656
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 2: read quote, the Soviet government is prepared to enter into

657
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 2: the appropriate negotiations with the Government of the Hungarian People's

658
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: Republic and other members of the Warsaw Treaty on the

659
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: question of the presence of Soviet troops and the territory

660
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: of Hungary. And then later that same day they're like, no,

661
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: never mind, let's just kill them all.

662
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 3: Great great stuff from the Soviets. It's incredible, incredible organization.

663
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: And we have their like meeting notes from when they

664
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: got together and decided to kill them all.

665
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

666
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: And they were afraid of losing There's two things they

667
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: were afraid of. They were afraid of losing face in

668
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: front of the world. Because on October twenty ninth, the UK, France,

669
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: and Israel had invaded Egypt in the Suez Crisis in

670
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: order to regain control of the Suez Canal, which I

671
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 2: will pretend like I know more about, but I don't.

672
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: Oh it's I will say, if you want to go

673
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: reading too that it is a very very funny example

674
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: of like France in the UK, as these like dying empires,

675
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: having a temper tantrum and trying to be like real

676
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: big boys one last time and then just getting absolutely rolled.

677
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 3: It rules. It's like, it's really really it is the

678
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: closest thing the British did to Brexit before Brexit, Like

679
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: it's like their last imperial temper tantrum before they ceased

680
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 3: to be a relevant world power.

681
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: So poor timing for the Hungarians of that happened because

682
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: Russia is now like, oh, we like really extra, can't

683
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: lose face to the West right now. But so they're

684
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: afraid of looking weak. But in the same document, this

685
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 2: is not the way they phrased it. But thanks to

686
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: the terrible internal echo chamber of Communist party politics, the

687
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: communist officials were afraid of losing face in front of themselves.

688
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: The other Soviet leaders.

689
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

690
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: They were like, ah, I can't be the because they've

691
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: just survived the Great Purge, right They're like, oh, if

692
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: I don't not only tow the party line, but like

693
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: push it, I'm gonna fucking die.

694
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 3: This is a terrible system, Like don't organize the Great Purge.

695
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 3: You can just like no, like if there's a stalin,

696
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 3: you can just shoot him, like he'll die. Like, if

697
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 3: you shoot him with enough bullets, the man will die.

698
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 3: You don't have to do the great purge. You can

699
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 3: skip them.

700
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: He's made of steel.

701
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 3: I could get a really big bullet. Is the thing

702
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: are re fiercing rounds? Yeah, there's a little green tip,

703
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 3: go right on through there. Yeah yeah, And like it's

704
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 3: why echo chambers are dangerous, because echo chambers allow you

705
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 3: to take whatever is the most radical position, and it

706
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: will continue to the You'll push your own little Overton

707
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: window further and further. And it's why, like radicals of

708
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: all types, including anti authoritarians, need to stay in contact

709
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 3: with people who disagree with them. You need to talk

710
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: to people. It's the social equivalent of touch grass is.

711
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 3: You should probably talk to your neighbors if your idea,

712
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: if you're if your neighbor isn't like a right wing bigot,

713
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: and if you're afraid that your idea sounds really wacky

714
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: to your neighbor, that doesn't mean that you're wrong, but

715
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: it means you need to think about it. You know,

716
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: like you still might be right. The ideas that I

717
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 3: have are absolutely.

718
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: Wacky by society standards, but like, yeah, I'm immune to

719
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: echo chamber effects. Fortunately, because the only person around me

720
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: doesn't talk, he barks a lot. I've actually decided I

721
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: hate airplanes because of my dog, who barks at airplanes

722
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: all day. That's my real That's not true. I don't

723
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: hate airplanes, but Rentrell does. I figured it out, though

724
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: I probably already said this on air. I think the

725
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: reason he barks at all the birds in the airplanes

726
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,959
Speaker 2: is that he's like one of his million working dog

727
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: mutt things is keeping chickens safe from hawks and so like,

728
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: when he was around a bunch of chickens, I was

729
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: afraid he was gonna do a murder on the chickens,

730
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 2: but instead he was just trying to herd them, which

731
00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: did not work. Chicken anarchists and narco chickenism, Yeah, but

732
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 2: I think he would. He would absolutely keep him safe

733
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: from hawks because no hawks come near my well, they

734
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 2: circle overhead because I live in the villa nowhere. But anyway,

735
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 2: what also circles this isn't an ad pivot. What also

736
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 2: circles around Budapest are.

737
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 3: Russian tanks who good tradition terrible thing. Yeah, Russian troops

738
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 3: started circling Budapest on November first, there's more of them

739
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 3: this time. Last time it was hundreds of tanks and

740
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: thousands of soldiers and they won, not the Russians but

741
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 3: the Hungarian people. This time there are six thousand tanks

742
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 3: and two hundred thousand soldiers. Oh my god, which is

743
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 3: a lot. Yeah. What's the population of Budapest at this point?

744
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: Like I don't know?

745
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: Oh, wait, I did know, because they incorporated it. It's

746
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 2: like a million and a half because they one of

747
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: the things that they did is incorporated like a bunch

748
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: of the surrounding suburbs all into one city.

749
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. So that's like, don't do math on air. I

750
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 3: just had an episode where I said, don't do math air.

751
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: Now I'm attempting to do math on the air. One

752
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 3: in six there are like like a sixth of the

753
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 3: population under is like one soldier for every six random

754
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: people in Boodfest good lord and uh. On November fourth,

755
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: at four fifteen am, nineteen fifty six, the Russian tanks

756
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 3: roll in. This is like the moment of tanky ism. Yeah.

757
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: At five twenty am, nog announces this on the air

758
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: that this invasion is happening. A couple hours later, he

759
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: flees to the Yugoslav embassy in Budapest. He doesn't flee

760
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: the city, he goes to the embassy of another country,

761
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: and for a week the revolutionaries fight like hell. By

762
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: November third, the Russians have taken over the country more

763
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: or less, and a Soviet puppet named Cotter takes his

764
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: oath of office, despite the fact that nag never resigned,

765
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 2: he was just hiding in the embassy. The battle is fierce.

766
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 2: It devolves men and women both. One worker said quote,

767
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: they gave out arms to whoever wanted to fight. When

768
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: the person was tired, she left her combat position and

769
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: went home, keeping her weapon or not. Everything rested on

770
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: commitment and confidence. The average fighter's political position was, according

771
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: to one witness quote, Yugoslav socialism plus the workers councils.

772
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about Yugoslavian socialism. It is confusing

773
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: to me because I haven't done an entire episode about it.

774
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: But it's like non Soviet.

775
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like less repressive, more like it's like a

776
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 3: weird kind of like system of co ops with like

777
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: a strong state element to it, so there's like more

778
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 3: workers control there.

779
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: This is the one that played up that wanted to

780
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: be friends with the United States and shit.

781
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but they also but because of just a

782
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 3: bunch of stuff that happens, like there are also a

783
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: lot like there are like workers' councils. There is that

784
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: like run things, but they're not like completely in control,

785
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 3: and there is still like a central government, and so

786
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: they're actually weirdly that they end up taking a lot

787
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 3: of anarchists principles were like if you read books about it,

788
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: we'll talk about like Yugoslavia and self management like a

789
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: very sort of anarchist sense, and this was like one

790
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 3: of the just actually like the tendency that's like the

791
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 3: closest to like the revolution in Algeria I was talking

792
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 3: about where the fuhone the workers councils was Okay, they

793
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: were looking at this, but also like the the thing

794
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 3: about it is that like it is also a market economy,

795
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 3: so they are also like competing ainst each other. So

796
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: it's it's very weird, a very very weird system that

797
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: also was being held together by subsidies to a large extent.

798
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was it was like one of the

799
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 3: things I was considered just like the other poll against

800
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: like the US and the Soviets, was like the system

801
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, you like sort of have democratic stuff,

802
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: you can manage your workplace, and.

803
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that this is what kind of what

804
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: they mean in this context when I say Yugoslav socialism

805
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: is that the like non Stalinist socialism plus these workers councils,

806
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: the military leader as much as there was one, and

807
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: this actually might have been only for one fighting unit.

808
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: The way that a lot of this was written was

809
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: fairly confusing. There was a forty nine year old to

810
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: livery driver named Yano Sabo, and he had fought in

811
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineteen revolution and was a fierce anti Stalinist.

812
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: He said, quote, this is the quote I promised to

813
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 2: you earlier. Quote the Russian soldiers that we kill are

814
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 2: as much heroes as we are. It is the crime

815
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 2: of the leaders which makes us fight against each other.

816
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: And if that doesn't sum up my position on authoritarian communism,

817
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: I don't know what does.

818
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: God what a line? Oh my god? Is that is

819
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 3: really something?

820
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: And he got the same do as most of the

821
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: Bolsheviks who fought in the revolution. He was executed by communists.

822
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah, yeah, this this is the vertical problem

823
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 3: of communists, is that you will be killed by other

824
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 3: communists yep, for the crime of doing communism yep, where

825
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 3: is the crime of toscreeing with someone? Which?

826
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, whichever, the further.

827
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 3: In you go, the more likely did you getting killed?

828
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 3: I guess this is This is a brief resurgence of

829
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 3: the old days of being killed for the crime of

830
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 3: doing communism versus the middle period of being killed for

831
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 3: being a slightly wrong kind of Bolshevik.

832
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, for being friends with Stalin but in the wrong way. Yeah.

833
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like you tossed off Bria.

834
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: Like yeah. So A ton of the rebels in the

835
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: Hungarian Revolution were veterans of the Russian Revolution and or

836
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: the Spanish Civil War, but most were under twenty years old,

837
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: so most were new to this Jeese.

838
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

839
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: They fight like hell, but they are outmatched and they

840
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: are alone. The miners in the north of the country,

841
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: where they actually have some hills, hold out the longest,

842
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: as do the densest workers neighborhoods in the major cities.

843
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: The last stronghold in Budapest is a hospital that is

844
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: taken by force on November sixteenth. The workers' councils keep

845
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 2: organizing despite the military force being defeated, they try to

846
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 2: coordinate better and better despite losing the war. A lot

847
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: of Red Army soldiers defect over the course of those revolution.

848
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 3: Oh that I never heard that part. It makes sense, Like.

849
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it's funny because it's like every time I

850
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: hear about the Red Army putting down actual workers, I

851
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: hear about them defecting, you know, but not not enough

852
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: of them. Yeah, not enough of them.

853
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 3: It's just a few.

854
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: Which is funny because it means not like the Red

855
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: Army is famous for a couple of things. One you

856
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: can't invade the country U. Two they'll just send zerg

857
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 2: swarms of people that they don't care if live or die.

858
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: And three they defect a lot.

859
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it sucks. It turns out the army sucks.

860
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: And then usually they're like sending you after people who

861
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 2: actually are closer to your own ideology than the people

862
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: that are trying to get you killed.

863
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: I remember I read an account, and this is a

864
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 3: really badly sourced There's an account talking about like the

865
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: troops they sent in who like literally the thing that

866
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 3: they were told by their commanders was that like they

867
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: like they were literally fighting like a resurrected version of

868
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 3: like the s s and that, like like the actual

869
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: Nazis from World War two had like taken control again

870
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 3: and they get there where they're like what the fuck,

871
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 3: Like hold on, we why we're shooting work?

872
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, like march on those mines and kill the miners

873
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: and you're like wait what what?

874
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: Hold on?

875
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: I read some marks a while ago, and I think

876
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: it's just said something about not doing that.

877
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, in order to liberate the politaria, you must

878
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: liberate them from life with bullets. This is called socialism. Yeah,

879
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: totally back to weird Christianity. Yeah.

880
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: So there were right wing and anti Semitic components to

881
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: the revolution, they were never anything approaching a majority force

882
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: within it, as best as I can tell by reading

883
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: a lot of different sources, including like Jewish sources that

884
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: I think would have wanted to be anti communist. The

885
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: primary source for the idea that the whole thing is

886
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: a nationalist, anti Semitic revolt comes from not the Tankies,

887
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: famous Holocaust denier David Irving.

888
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: What David Irving is the guy you invented the things.

889
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: I don't know if he invented it, but at least

890
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: the way it's talked about comes from a poorly sourced

891
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: book he wrote in nineteen eighty one about the Hungarian Revolution.

892
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: God, oh, why is everything David Irving? He's the fucking

893
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 3: fire bombing a Dresden guy, Like, you know, why is

894
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 3: the worst guy? Oh my god, I hate him so much.

895
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: Oh David Irving, jump scare. I was not prepared for this.

896
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 3: Yeah no, oh, this is like this is like opening

897
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: your door. There's just like a barrel of shit there.

898
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 3: Like it's the worst surprise ever.

899
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: And it also means that when people are like, oh,

900
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 2: it's anti Semitic this revolution, which is like one of

901
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: the things that tankies will sometimes try and claim about it,

902
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: it is it was just literally repeating David Irving Holocaust.

903
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: Their courts the Holocaust, and I are like, great, great stuff,

904
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 3: incredible things here. Yeah, oh good god.

905
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: Oh no.

906
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: And so there was anti Semitism in the ranks of it. However,

907
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: Jews fought on both sides of the revolution. Like one

908
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 2: of the things is that, I mean, it's funny because

909
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: almost no one in this story is really justly Jewish, right,

910
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 2: most of them are communist atheists, but like whatever, all

911
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: that shit is complicated. But so a lot of the

912
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: Communist Party leaders who had fled were Jewish, but so

913
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 2: were a ton of the people running these workers councils

914
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 2: and doing all of the fighting and like, and Jews

915
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: were also in the secret police, so some of them

916
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: were getting killed. But then as Vic's you pointed out,

917
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 2: there's like the famous photo of the like, we killed

918
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: a Jewish person, but it's actually a Christian who was

919
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: a Christian, Okay, Like, Yeah, and so I believe that

920
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: there was some anti Semitic graffiti. The only real the

921
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: thing I can point to that was anti Semitic that

922
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: happened comes a little bit later, and it was not.

923
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: It was actually after the revolution failed, Jews fought on

924
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 2: both sides, which is the easiest thing to believe ever,

925
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 2: for anyone who has ever read about Judaism in Eastern

926
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 2: Europe and especially Eastern European communism. The oppression is mounting

927
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,959
Speaker 2: wherever the Soviets control, Suspected rebels are hanging from bridge

928
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 2: is everywhere. And yeah, Cotter, the guy in charge meets

929
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 2: with a new Central Workers Council of Greater Budapest on

930
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: November fourteenth, and the workers say, we want the Soviets

931
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 2: to leave, we want secret ballot, multi party elections. We

932
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: want democracy, we want socialist control of the factories. We

933
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 2: want to legalize the unions. We want freedom of press, association,

934
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: and religion. And Cotter is like, nah, fuck you. I've

935
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: read a couple different versions of this, but I did

936
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: find one that's quoting him directly. He said, you have

937
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 2: the right to not recognize my government. That doesn't matter.

938
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: I am supported by the Soviet army, and you're free

939
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: to do what you want. If you don't work, that's

940
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: your business. Here in parliament, we will always have food

941
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: and lighting. So he's like, I'm gonna win, is what

942
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: he's saying.

943
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

944
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 2: He also said basically, you can't have a National workers

945
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: Council because we already have a worker's government. Oh oh.

946
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: Then on November twenty second, agreed to leave the embassy

947
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: because he was promised that he would be Okay, Oh,

948
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: don't do that. No, Like, no, no, this is like

949
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: the same thing as like when what's his name, Progovian?

950
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: Proosian?

951
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 2: Is that his name?

952
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 3: Oh? I don't know the guy he led that weird

953
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 3: Wagner rule, Like got on an airplane to Africa.

954
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 2: It's like, don't get on that plane. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah,

955
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: Like CEILR.

956
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 3: James writes this about Walter Rodney, who's the guy who

957
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: wrote how Europe Underdeveloped Africa, and like he knew like

958
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 3: Celia James, uh, people who don't know Seelar James's. He's

959
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 3: a weirdly very influential like black Marxist writer in historian.

960
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 3: He's also like all of his friends basically in like

961
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 3: the Pan Africa's this group that he's like part of

962
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 3: the founding of, like go on to like liberate the

963
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: colonies in Africa, and so like he knew Walter Rodney

964
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 3: and he wrote a speech about it, and it was

965
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: like Walter Rodney, Buddy, why the fuck did you get

966
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 3: in that car? They were obviously going to kill you, Like, buddy,

967
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 3: why did you do this? And it's it's just like

968
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 3: I don't know, like people throughout history keep doing this

969
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 3: and they keep dying, and it's really horrible and tragic.

970
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 2: It's like, I mean, at some of what you're like,

971
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: I bet he's probably like, well, at some point I

972
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: gotta leave this embassy. You know, at some point they're

973
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 2: either coming in to get me, Like I don't know,

974
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was going through his head. But

975
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: he was arrested and he was flown to a secret

976
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: prison in Romania. He was convicted of treason and he

977
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: was hanged, with the ostensibly nice Krushchev saying that he

978
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 2: was killed quote as a lesson to all other leaders

979
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 2: in socialist countries, so like, very explicitly, the lesson is,

980
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 2: do not try to be a socialist country not under

981
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: the control of the Soviet Union. It is a bare threat.

982
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 2: He was buried in an unmarked grave with his hands

983
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 2: and feet tied up in barbed wire. Jesus, And I

984
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: don't know whether they did that before they hanged him

985
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: or not, but which case, it's very Jesus.

986
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 3: He that's yeah, what, oh my god.

987
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: Like By November nineteen fifty seven, the workers' councils were destroyed.

988
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 2: They actually held on for about a year, but their

989
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: organizers kept getting arrested and often executed.

990
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

991
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 2: All told, somewhere between twenty and fifty thousand Hungarians were

992
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: killed in the fighting, and about three to seven thousand

993
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 2: Russians were killed. Twenty two thousand people were convicted for

994
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 2: participating in the revolution, and at least two hundred and

995
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: twenty nine were executed around two hundred thousand Hungarians left

996
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: the country while the Iron Curtain was down, which is

997
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 2: actually one of the main other things that they accomplished.

998
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: These twenty to fifty thousand Hungarians who died in that

999
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 2: fighting helped get two hundred thousand people out of the country. Like,

1000
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,399
Speaker 2: they didn't retake their country, but they helped get two

1001
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 2: hundred thousand people out of this nightmare country. Yeah, the

1002
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 2: border wasn't fully closed again until March nineteen fifty seven,

1003
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: and this diaspora is called the fifty six ers. When asked,

1004
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 2: there was like a poll, the majority said the reason

1005
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: they left was because of fear because of this is

1006
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 2: not surprising, but you know, it was fear of reprisals

1007
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: and imprisonment and deportation to the USSR or within the USSR,

1008
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: A huge percentage of the people who'd been in the workers'

1009
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 2: councils fled. At one point, I think the only Western

1010
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: military action of the entire revolution, a Hungarian fled across

1011
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 2: the border to Austria and a Soviet soldier came after

1012
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: him crossed the border to try and keep this guy

1013
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 2: from running. So an Austrian soldier shot the Soviet soldier

1014
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 2: dead is the only border patrol person I've ever heard

1015
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: of where I'm like, I like you. Twenty thousand of

1016
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 2: the people who fled were Jews, which is very disproportionate.

1017
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 2: Best as I can tell, based on what I've read,

1018
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: most Jews weren't fleeing the supposedly anti Semitic revolution, but

1019
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 2: because they were part of this revolution and they feared

1020
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: the return of Soviet control.

1021
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1022
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,959
Speaker 2: But the one anti Semitic thing that I can point

1023
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: to that happened once they were in the refugee camps,

1024
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 2: there were anti Semitic riots when Hungarian non Jews decided

1025
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 2: the Jews were getting special treatment or whatever.

1026
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 3: The fuck Jesus fucking Christ.

1027
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: They were like, ah, you're getting first pick of country

1028
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: because we're weird and never changed fucking anti semitism. Yeah,

1029
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: but I actually read a lot about the refugee camps

1030
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: and they're like kind of the best case scenario that

1031
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 2: I've ever read about, and like people were like, like

1032
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 2: there was a humanitarian worker, was like, never in my

1033
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: life have I seen people being like, all right, who

1034
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 2: wants Sweden get on this bus? Who wants you know, Germany?

1035
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: Get on this bus?

1036
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 3: Uh huh?

1037
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: And the Cool People Award for the week. The sides

1038
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: of the Hungarians who do this revolution goes to Austria.

1039
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 2: Austria went into overdrive to help people escape. They declared

1040
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: that they were going to offer asylum as early as

1041
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: October twenty eighth, like only a couple days after the

1042
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: revolution started.

1043
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

1044
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 2: They set up two hundred and fifty seven refugee camps

1045
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 2: and volunteers poured in. These were like not concentration camps basically,

1046
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 2: as far as I can tell, volunteers like poured in

1047
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 2: both from Austria and internationally to help the refugees.

1048
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 3: Wow.

1049
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 2: And this was they were a neutral power, This wasn't

1050
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 2: a NATO power, and they had a socialist Minister of

1051
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: the Interior. And yeah, so the revolution failed. People learned

1052
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 2: the truth about the USSR. Peter Fryar was a journalist

1053
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: for the Daily Worker, a UK Communist Party magazine.

1054
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 3: Oh, I was wondering, group we're going to get to him.

1055
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has only got a couple of line or

1056
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 2: so in it. Yeah, he wrote what he saw and

1057
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: about the censuring of his reports because the Communist Party

1058
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 2: of the UK was like, now you can't say any

1059
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 2: that shit. And he was kicked out of the Communist Party,

1060
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 2: and now we all know it tanked because they're the

1061
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 2: people who are like but I like censoring Peter Fryar's reports.

1062
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: Ever since, the world has tried to deny that it

1063
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: was a revolution led by workers councils. The USSR wants

1064
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: us to believe those capitalists. The US wants us to

1065
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 2: believe those capitalists. The revolution has been recuperated by Hungarian nationalists.

1066
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: At the fiftieth anniversary commemoration, the officials didn't mention the

1067
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 2: workers or their organization and reduced it to trade unionism.

1068
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: But if you want to know the ins and outs,

1069
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 2: there's among the sources in this episode. In the show notes,

1070
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 2: there's a libcom article with Storming Heaven in the title

1071
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 2: that has more than you want to know about all

1072
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 2: of those so much and has down to the details

1073
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: of the points of unity of like this council versus

1074
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 2: that council, and the organizational methods, and it's amazing. Yeah,

1075
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: that's the Hungarian revolution.

1076
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, you know, there's a lot of I guess

1077
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,280
Speaker 3: I in some sense I have like like girl who's

1078
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 3: read a book about China, This looks like China brain,

1079
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 3: But you know, I think there's there's a really interesting

1080
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 3: thing that happens here where again, like like all of

1081
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 3: you know, the the establishment of workers councils the control

1082
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 3: production gets described by the liberal press as liberalization. Yeah,

1083
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 3: that's not what liberalism is. Hold on, yeah, hold on,

1084
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 3: liberalism does not support the formation of the workers councils

1085
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 3: to sees controlled the media production. That is in fact communism.

1086
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 3: Like and it's interesting you see this this tendency like

1087
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 3: play out throughout the course of the of the twentieth century,

1088
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 3: where like the actual thing that's happening is that there's

1089
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, like I said, you're like four

1090
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 3: or five currents, but there's there's always at all times

1091
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 3: in the capitalist countries and in the communist countries, like

1092
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 3: a third current they're fighting against, which is the tendency,

1093
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 3: which which is the workers councils. And this is a

1094
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 3: bunch of what like the uprisings in France May sixty eight,

1095
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 3: and this happens in Italy a bunch of times in

1096
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 3: sixty eight and again in like seventy seven, and in

1097
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 3: all of these different countries in like Spain and Algeria

1098
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 3: and like all of these different places, there are these revolutions.

1099
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 3: You see this also in like between like the prog

1100
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 3: Spring and Czechoslovakia, like all of these places for workers councils,

1101
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 3: and everyone goes, oh, these are liberal capitalist revolutions, and

1102
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 3: they're not. They're like that. There are revolutions that are

1103
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 3: about like like they are communists, right, they are communists.

1104
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 3: They want communism, they are, but you know, but they

1105
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 3: take all of the things that they were told about communism,

1106
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 3: about communism being the workers control the means of production

1107
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 3: very seriously, and they're like, Okay, how do you do this.

1108
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 3: You do this by you know, managing production democratically through councils,

1109
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 3: and this tradition of like the annihilation of memory. Like

1110
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 3: I wrote a piece a few years ago called When

1111
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 3: Communists Crushed the International Workers Movement. That's like sort of

1112
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 3: looking at this stuff. The thing that this reminds me

1113
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 3: a lot of is the way that Tanneman is rem

1114
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 3: We're like Chhaneman is also a protest starts with the

1115
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 3: student protest and then very quickly, just unbelievable numbers of

1116
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 3: workers show up, right, and you know, you have some

1117
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 3: similar things of workers showing the arm themselves. And if

1118
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 3: you read the reports of like what these people are

1119
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 3: talking about on the interviews they're giving, like they are

1120
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 3: also talking about like democratic control on the factories, and

1121
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 3: this is just gone for the matream accounts of it.

1122
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 3: Everyone remembers, like Channleman as a student protest that was

1123
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 3: for liberal democracy. And this is like the last of

1124
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 3: those kinds of things where, you know, because it's convenient

1125
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 3: for every side right for it to have been sort

1126
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 3: of like pro western like capitalist pro democracy protests. There's

1127
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 3: a whole lineage of movements that it's just that we're

1128
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 3: not that, We're never that didn't really want that, and

1129
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: like Ganlemen and at least you can point to the

1130
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 3: students and go like, well some of them wanted that,

1131
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 3: but right, you know, there's this whole lineage of these

1132
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 3: things that are workers troupments that just get erased because

1133
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 3: it's politically inconvenient for everyone, and because the idea that

1134
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 3: like you and the other people at your workplace who

1135
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 3: do the work should run it is so dangerous that

1136
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 3: everyone is willing to just like throw aside all of

1137
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 3: the ideological differences they have with each other. Would be

1138
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 3: like fuck it, eat shit.

1139
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 2: No, it makes sense. I mean It's like one of

1140
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,919
Speaker 2: the things I've always realized, and not that these people

1141
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 2: are anarchists, but in this you know, anyone who desires

1142
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: state power and authority is always going to hate people

1143
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 2: who want actual democracy or want actual you know, bottom

1144
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 2: up control of society. And like, it's interesting because one

1145
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: of the things that I think about, I'm trying to

1146
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 2: think about why I'm doing this Tanky episode right now,

1147
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: because like, honestly, I am personally trying to get over

1148
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 2: some of my biases around some of this stuff, because

1149
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: I believe that the real threat right now is fascism.

1150
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 2: Right Fascism has captured the state power of the United

1151
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 2: States is the most powerful military of the world has

1152
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: ever seen. That's bad, you know, And but I think

1153
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 2: a lot of it for me get summed up in

1154
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,919
Speaker 2: that quote from the forty nine year old truck driver

1155
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 2: who you know, was a military leader of the revolution,

1156
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 2: which is that like, when I think about the average fascist,

1157
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, this person isn't in it for good reasons.

1158
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 2: Is doing a bad thing for bad reasons. And when

1159
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: I think about the average Tanky, I am thinking of

1160
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 2: someone who is doing a bad thing for good reasons.

1161
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 2: And I think that that difference matters, and I think

1162
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 2: that what we can try to do is challenge them

1163
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 2: on being like, well, don't do these things that keep

1164
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,479
Speaker 2: happening historically where you all do really bad things. Stop

1165
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 2: doing the really bad things. Yeah, and go ahead.

1166
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 3: Well, I said, this is like, this is like these

1167
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 3: are conversations that are very difficult and suck. But like

1168
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 3: I kind of I almost weirdly think about it as

1169
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 3: it's almost like it's like de radicalization work in some sense. Right,

1170
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 3: there's something that you do on a personal level with

1171
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 3: the personal relationship you have with people, but also you know,

1172
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 3: like some of the people who I trust the most

1173
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 3: in my life are people who either like used to

1174
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 3: believe the stuff or believe some of it. Yeah, and

1175
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 3: you can, you know, you can do a lot of

1176
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 3: work to make sure that someone who's in it for

1177
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 3: the right reason and also has come to hold a

1178
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 3: bunch of very weird beliefs from like a bunch of

1179
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 3: shit on Twitter can be someone who you can trust

1180
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 3: to like watch your back as the fascist descent, and

1181
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 3: that's a really valuable thing. And like, both sides of

1182
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 3: this revolution are communists, so you can't hold one side

1183
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 3: up and then say, and I therefore hate communists, right

1184
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 3: because you're like, well, I just said I like one

1185
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 3: side of this, you know, and so we can challenge

1186
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 3: people to be the right side of this. And and

1187
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 3: I think for me the answer is political pluralism. Like

1188
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 3: I think that, you know, one of the things is

1189
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 3: you pointed out, like, Okay, so there's like sometimes capitalists

1190
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 3: within these movements or whatever, And there's capitalists in right

1191
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 3: wing people within this movement absolutely, just actually to a

1192
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 3: less degree than I actually thought going in. I still

1193
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 3: supported the revolution because I'm like, well, I believe in

1194
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 3: political pluralism. But but I think that one of these

1195
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 3: things that they're fighting for is like non forced collectivization.

1196
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 3: They're like, we want to collectivize because we want to collectiviz, yeah,

1197
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:18,959
Speaker 3: not at gunpoint. Yeah.

1198
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 2: Like, and if someone wants to go their own way

1199
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 2: and have a small farm where they're not exploiting anyone,

1200
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 2: let them do it, because the systems that you create

1201
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 2: to prevent someone from doing that are so much more

1202
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 2: evil than whatever harm is caused by a small producer.

1203
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 3: You know. And I don't know, well, and I think

1204
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 3: there's there's another principle there where it's like in a

1205
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 3: functional society, you can have political disagreements with someone that

1206
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 3: don't end in people being marched off to prison cells

1207
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 3: and execution plots. Right, Like, that's a thing that you

1208
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 3: should be able to have and it's not a like

1209
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 3: you must let Nazis exist. But also like I don't know, like,

1210
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: look what's happened to Eastern Europe after the Soviet block

1211
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 3: felt like were they were they successful in defeating like

1212
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 3: destroying Nazism in Eastern Europe forever? Like No, Yeah, you

1213
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 3: can't actually kill people's ideas, and you shouldn't kill people

1214
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 3: for their ideas even if they're awful terrible ideas. You

1215
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 3: can only prevent them from doing terrible things with it

1216
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 3: because of their ideas. Yeah, anyways, that's that's the moment

1217
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 3: we're in now. We are now in the people with

1218
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 3: terrible ideas have taken power. We need to stop them

1219
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 3: from doing it.

1220
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we need to make common cause with the

1221
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 2: people that I just spent two hours trash talking.

1222
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 3: Hoorah. And so we have we have a podcast about this.

1223
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 3: It's called a could Happen Here. It's every day. It's

1224
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 3: actually like there's so many episodes you can listen to them.

1225
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 3: It's great. It's on wherever fine podcasts are sold, sold,

1226
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 3: distributed that one. Yeah, I'll sell you it could happen

1227
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 3: here for three bucks an episode. Just benmo me and

1228
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: I will send you an MP three file. I would

1229
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 3: see about as much as that Bundy as I would

1230
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 3: if someone, if fucking company was selling it.

1231
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 2: So like you know, I love to say that Sophie.

1232
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 3: No Ah no censored by the corporate media.

1233
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 2: Well that's it for this week, and when we come

1234
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 2: back next week we will have more Cool People Who

1235
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: Did Cool Stuff. That's always the outro we use. I

1236
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about. Bye, everyone that was weird.

1237
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 2: I liked it. Thanks.

1238
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1239
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

1240
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: visit our website Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1241
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1242
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: your podcasts.