1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 2: So Michael Ian Blank is a comedian, actor, writer, and 12 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 2: a keen observer of the absurd and American culture, which 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: aimfully is these days one in the same and you're 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: repeat offender on mission in Plausa, Yes, Sam, on a 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: more serious thing, on one of your more serious works, 16 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: one of the classics you've written, A pig Parade is 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: a Terrible idea twenty ten. And in A Pig Parade 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: is a Terrible Idea, you claim that while people can 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: be convinced that a pig parade might sound like a 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: great idea, it just isn't in practice. 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 3: The pigs are a metaphor for capitalists. You think it's 22 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 3: gonna be great, You know you're gonna you're gonna You're 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 3: gonna throw open the doors, and then what are they 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 3: gonna do. They're gonna snuffle all over everything. They're gonna 25 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 3: eat more food than is their share. They're gonna be destructive, 26 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 3: they're gonna be sloppy, and at the end of it, 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 3: who's cleaning up the mess us the proletariat. 28 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: And it fits on top of that there is going 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: to be a parade. We're told in just recent days 30 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: that President Trump is gonna hold a military parade like 31 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: he wanted to do in his first term, which happens 32 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: to be on his birthday. 33 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: He's an asshole. Can we just make Has the United 34 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: States ever held an official military parade? We must have, 35 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: right at some point. I'm not saying that outside of 36 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: wartime when we're sort of, uh, we're not not bringing 37 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 3: back soldiers from the Gulf or something like that, But 38 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 3: have we ever just had, for the hell of it, 39 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: a military parade? 40 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: I think the military is usually against that type of thing. 41 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: There's been times, like when President Kennedy died and there 42 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: was a kison with some military. You know, there's ceremonial times, 43 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: but I don't think we've ever had one like he 44 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: wants that. Apparently he saw military prede in France and 45 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: said we need to have that with tanks and everything, and. 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: They didn't want to do it because the tanks were 47 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: going to chew up Pennsylvania Avenue. And like the I 48 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: think they. 49 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: Also didn't want to do it because it's not who 50 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: we how we want to represent ourselves as a purely 51 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: martial power. But now that we have reduced and or 52 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 3: eliminated all of our soft power, why not just have 53 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: pershing missiles flying down constitution. 54 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: Pete Hagg's got doing push ups on the top of 55 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: a Bradley fighting Don. 56 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: Bongino in his personal pretoriat? Is that what a preetoriat 57 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 3: guaritorian guarding? 58 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: Yes, go back to Roman times. 59 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: Apparently he's the first deputy of the FBI who has 60 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: to have a security detail because normally FBI agents are 61 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: trained and can carry guns, and he is not. 62 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: He's not trained to carry a gun, or he's not 63 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 3: allowed to have a gun because of things in his past. 64 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't read deep enough into the article I 65 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: saw on this, so I. 66 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: Did have a question about conspiracies in the US government 67 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: and your background as a poker player, right, I never 68 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: want to play poker with you. You want you know 69 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: you're a pro, You want to want a lot of 70 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: words and competitions. And so we're involved in like the 71 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: biggest fucking poker game ever with this right now, at 72 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: least economically, with these tears. Do you think, with what's 73 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: going on now, that they have a plan, the conspiracy 74 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: to pull this shit off their eight dimensional chests or 75 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: is this just like general fuckery, like you've got to 76 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: rub at the table. 77 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: Well, in recent weeks, what we've seen is Trump deploying advance, 78 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: deploying the poker metaphor remember how many times Trump has 79 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: said of Ukraine, they just don't have the cards, they 80 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 3: don't have the cards. And Avance said it about Greenland. 81 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: I think that are the car I mean, they just 82 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: they keep talking about the cards. But what your question 83 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: presupposes is that they're actually that they have something in 84 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: mind that they're trying to achieve. And I do have 85 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: a sort of wild eyed conspiracy theory about this very topic. 86 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: Let's here. 87 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 3: It begins, this conspiracy theory with Trump believing in climate change. 88 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 3: It begins with Trump, maybe during his first administration or 89 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: some other time, being surrounded by advisors who say, you know, sir, 90 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: and these are big advisors, tears rolling down their faces. 91 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 3: You know, sir, climate change is real. Here's the data. 92 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 3: In the next one hundred years, the southwest and some 93 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: of the south of the United States is going to 94 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 3: become less and less hospitable to human life. And Trump 95 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: may have pooh poohed that poop pooh, that poo poo that. 96 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: The second part of my conspiracy is the assassination attempt, 97 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 3: which I'm saying is real. If somebody tried to kill him, 98 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 3: and then immediately after, if you recall, everybody was saying, oh, Trump, 99 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: he's a changed man. He's become more reflective, he's different now, 100 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: and we all thought, those of us from a distance, thought, oh, 101 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: that means he's going to become kind and compassionate. I 102 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 3: think the opposite happened. I think it made him more 103 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: belligerent and hostile. And so when you combine those two 104 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: things plus the other part of the assassination attempt that 105 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 3: I think it did get him thinking about was Oh. 106 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: I think it did get him thinking about his own 107 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: mortality and thinking that he's going to be dead at 108 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 3: some point, and what is his legacy going to be. 109 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 3: And I don't think he necessarily considered that before that, 110 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: because I think he thought of himself as immortal. Okay, 111 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: you put all that together, what do you get? You 112 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: get a guy thinking about his legacy who understands that 113 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: the southern half of the United States over the next 114 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: hundred years is going to become lad less than hospitable. 115 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 3: At the same time, up in Canada, all of that 116 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: land is going to warm, all those resources are going 117 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 3: to become more available, more accessible. Up at the Arctic Circle, 118 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 3: all of those resources are already in dispute and already contended. 119 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 3: At the same time, you've got Greenland where all of 120 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: this is taking place climate wise. At the same time, 121 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: you've also got demographic trends in the United States which 122 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: say that by the year twenty forty something or whatever, 123 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 3: white people are going to become the minority. We know 124 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: that he has surrounded himself by white supremacists and fascists 125 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: who believe that white people should be in charge of everything. 126 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: What does Canada have a lot of white people? What 127 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: does Greenland have a lot of land? What does Russia 128 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 3: our new ally have a lot of white people? And 129 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: ultra Christianity, Orthodox Christianity. So you combine all those things, 130 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: and what I think that I think, my wild eye 131 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: conspiracy is that Trump and his people are trying to 132 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 3: position America as a soup superpower for the next one 133 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years or two hundred years, which is 134 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: allied with Russia, as a bulwark against Russia and against Asia. 135 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: And so you have this massive land mass which is 136 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: North America minus Mexico, Canada, Greenland, You've got the Arctic Circle, 137 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: and then you've got our closest new ally Russia. And 138 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: what you've done is you've created a scenario where we 139 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: become impregnable and incredibly formidable. That's my conspiracy theory. 140 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: What's the fee that's as delusional as the UFO stuff 141 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: you talk to us about less. 142 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: Podcast, I said, delusional. Don't you think that makes perfect sense? 143 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 3: White people, Russia, Christianity, Liban Swum. 144 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, have you seen anything else 145 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: in Trump's history in the last twenty five years that 146 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: makes sense? 147 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 3: Like you're saying, like. 148 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: A guy can think of a plan more than five 149 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: seconds ahead of. 150 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: But what I guess what I'm saying is it's not 151 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: his plan. He's just sort of instituting it, and he's 152 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: being sort of led down the from Rose path by 153 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon and the coupal of weirdos 154 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: who's guiding this presidency. 155 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: The Heritage Foundation. I, you know, genetically just don't like 156 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually say that 157 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: I think there's elements in that that that actually resonate 158 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: with me. The thing about a legacy, I think, the 159 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: thing about wanting a white Christian nation, although he's hardly Christian, 160 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: but not really the white nationalist thing. I think his 161 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: whole thing of expansion. And when was the last time 162 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: a president's went around praising William McKinley, right, I mean 163 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 2: it's been a lot. I'm the only one who's read 164 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: his memoirs recently, but but yeah, I mean, will I 165 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: think there's there is something to that, although I suspect 166 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: it's less of a cunning plan than just feral instincts 167 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: that that come together. But I think this is an 168 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: administration riven by conspiracies and conspiracy theories. I mean, look 169 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: no further than Laura Lumer walks into the Oval office 170 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: and suddenly and a sort of Madame LaFarge's head start 171 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: to roll, and there's no understanding why the head of 172 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: the n essay was fired, and just people in airal 173 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: security and a sea are being fired, like why. 174 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: I think the more pregnant question, and I use that 175 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 3: word advisedly, is why is Trump listening to Laura Lumer? 176 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: Why is she always in and out of his orbit? 177 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: Of all people like she's such a weirdo. Everybody around 178 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: him hates her. They all try to keep them apart. 179 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: And the question is why why does she have his ear? 180 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: And I think that's I think that's an interesting question. 181 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: Does she have just his ear? 182 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: Almost every one of those things you brought up to 183 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: talking about they they they And one of the things 184 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: I see with that Trump and this time it was 185 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: a little different last time, is there's a they is 186 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: not a cohesive thing. I think he has overlapping and 187 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: very different people who work for him. So he's got 188 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: Musk who has a completely different view of what where 189 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: the world should go and should go to Mars and 190 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: we should destroy the democracy. And then you've got the 191 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: economic tariff people, and then you've got the true crazies 192 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: and the lower Lumer people. You've got a group of 193 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: real pro China people and then a separate group of 194 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: real anti China people. Even just yesterday they were asking 195 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: about the tariffs and are they going to stay, are 196 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: they not going to stay, or they just to do 197 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: Different people in the administration, senior people who conceivably were 198 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: in the same meetings together, say absolutely the opposite things 199 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: because there's no coordination. So, Michael, with that lead up 200 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: and the fact that I think these people do have 201 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: different agendas and I think you agree to that, what 202 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: do you think Elon Musk's agenda is? 203 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: And with his fighting with Peter Navarro, can there be 204 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: only one who must be out? Or Navarro be out 205 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: two months from now? 206 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 3: Well, Musk has already said he's leaving. Musk is saying 207 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 3: that he's going to leave by early May. Ockham's razor 208 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 3: would suggest that Musk is primarily interested in Musk. So 209 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: how does all this random nonsense benefit Elon Musk? And 210 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: obviously like he's destroying all the agencies that would regulate 211 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 3: his particular industries, But then why go after Social Security? 212 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 3: Why go after USAID? Like I don't understand, I don't 213 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: understand it at all. I don't understand how the nation 214 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: as a whole just accepted the premise of waste, fraud, 215 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: and abuse. We just were like, oh, yeah, well, the 216 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 3: government spends too much money, and there's too many people 217 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: in the government, and it's doing too many things and 218 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: it's but why did we just accept that premise? I 219 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: never accepted that premise. It seemed to me that the 220 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: government in general's probably doing a pretty good job. Like, 221 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 3: I know people who work in the government, they work hard. 222 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 3: You guys worked in the government, you work hard, you 223 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: did good work. I'm friends with people who work in 224 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: the UN World Food Program. All they do is try 225 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: to feed people. That's their whole thing. Trump just destroyed 226 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: their program. All the scientists, the meteorologists, the firefighters, Like, 227 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 3: why did we just accept that premise? I find it infuriating. 228 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: I also find the premise and narrative around immigration infuriating 229 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: that we just accepted that illegal immigris Is. 230 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: That because is it an education thing? Do you think 231 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: the American public just don't understand their government because I 232 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: don't accept any of those things. 233 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 3: I think we've been propagandized so effectively by the right 234 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: wing media and pireennial what you want to call it. 235 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 3: I think Historically, I think we all know that Americans 236 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: have a kind of fundamental, inbred distrust of government that 237 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: stems from our origins as a nation. But over the 238 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: last few centuries, we've asked the government to do more 239 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 3: because we needed as we became more complex economically, militarily, industrially, technologically, 240 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: we needed people to regulate this stuff, to look at it, 241 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 3: because when we don't, we end up with things like 242 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 3: the Great Depression or all the depressions that preceded the 243 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: Great Depression, or we end up with a sort of 244 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: hodgepodge of like laws around who gets educated and who doesn't, 245 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: and who's allowed to buy real estate and who doesn't, 246 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: and who can get married and who doesn't like all 247 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: of these things. We've asked the government to provide some 248 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: oversight and regulation because it was necessary and for the 249 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 3: American people that just turn around and go, oh, yeah, 250 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: we didn't mean any of that. You didn't think. You 251 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 3: hadn't thought it through. That's the issue. And so now 252 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: we're seeing what happens when you think it through and 253 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 3: you start asking people left and right, and suddenly the 254 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 3: Social Security Administration you can't get through on the phone. 255 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: Why because we're getting rid of the phones. It's just insanity. 256 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 3: And I don't understand what Musk's role is in all 257 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: of this. To answer your question, I don't know. It 258 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense to me other than if your 259 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: goal is to actually rip apart the government, which it 260 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 3: seems like that is their goal. But to what end? 261 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 3: That's getting back to your original question about the poker. 262 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: To what end? What are they trying to accomplish? And 263 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: I don't know that they've articulated it in any way 264 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: other than to say we're going to make it. 265 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: I've come to think that this is chaos, that there 266 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: is no conspiracy here. There is no three dimensional eight 267 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: dimensional chess here. The American society, and I know people 268 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: are going to like balk at this. We have it. 269 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: We currently have it so good. We don't even think 270 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: we need these things anymore. We haven't had people die 271 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: of measles or measles outbreaks in twenty thirty years. Polio 272 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: is gone. The Great Recessions was the nineteen thirties. We 273 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: haven't had a land war in Europe in eighty years? Right, 274 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: Why do we still need vaccines? Why do we still 275 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: need NATO? People don't think they need them because like 276 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: we have work because they've worked exactly right. Yeah, we 277 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: haven't an award because we've had a we have an alliance, 278 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: and we also and this is much more difficult. Globalization 279 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: is a fact. It just friggin' is. And there are 280 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: winners and losers, just like there was when we moved 281 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: from horses to the internal combustion engine. Right, if you 282 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: were in the horse tending business, you were fucked, you know. 283 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: Henry Ford was the Elon Muskiv's day, and you know, 284 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: when we're moving towards green energy, and I think a 285 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: lot of people are scared, and I think that has 286 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: been pushed, but there's no plan other and this is 287 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: one conspiracy that I do buy into Project twenty twenty 288 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: five with the Heritage Foundation. I think they do have 289 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: a plan. 290 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: Just hold on for a short break. 291 00:15:49,160 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. All right, we're back from the break. 292 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: Let's get back into it. 293 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: I think because people are scared, perhaps one thing is 294 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: that people around Trump are thinking is, yeah, it's like authoritarianism. 295 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: Let's just give them a simple solution. And that is 296 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: something we see in history over and over and over again, 297 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: going back to ancient Greece when you get the Athenians 298 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: afraid they're going to look for a tyrant, or the Romans, 299 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: or let's go to nineteen thirty three with the Germans. 300 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: If you can make people afraid and offer simple solutions, 301 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: you can have power. And I think that's the pot 302 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: at the center of the table at this poker game 303 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: is power. What they want to do with it, I'm 304 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: not really sure because I don't think there's a day. 305 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: I think there's different days. Peter Navarro where he wants 306 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: to go, and where Milan Musk wants to go, and 307 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: where the Koch brothers want to go. But it's a conspiracy. 308 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 2: Everybody's looking to control this tired, confused old man at 309 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: the nasty old man at the sitting and sitting behind 310 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 2: the Resist desk with Elon Musk's kids booger on it. 311 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: But I think Musk is different from Project twenty twenty five. 312 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: I think they am different, and I need to dig 313 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: into it more. But I think the Musk people, there's 314 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: some books and things that Peter Teel and Musk and 315 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: sort of these South African tech guys have this view 316 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: that the US government is just a giant and giant 317 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: insurance company with an army, and the problem with the 318 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: government is it spends all its money to support the 319 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: Week in society, and the Week are holding us down. 320 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: And if we're going to move to a new world 321 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: that's in Mars and Ai driven, we have to actually 322 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: destroy that and get rid of the Week and have 323 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: a group of white people who could do things. And 324 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: so I think his view is different probably than a 325 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: lot of these other people around Trump. 326 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're exactly like Peter Teel and Elon 327 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 3: Musk and like David Sachs, the other South African member 328 00:17:53,240 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: of this troika. They're part of this techno utopian slash 329 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 3: feudal vision for how they see the next phase of 330 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: human development playing out. And they've utilized the bizarre writings 331 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: of Curtis Jarvin, this sort of weird philosopher of the right, 332 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 3: as a kind of intellectual undergirding for their project, which 333 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,239 Speaker 3: basically just amounts to a new feudalism where you're going 334 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: to have these tech overlords controlling literal land masses as 335 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 3: private essentially countries that you can then move to and 336 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: become a citizen of. But it will be but they 337 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: will be ruled over by these monarchs, the Peterteels, the 338 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 3: Elon Musks, the David Sachses of the world, and you 339 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: will abide by their rules, and presumably you will have 340 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 3: freedom of movement. I guess if you decide you don't 341 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 3: like their rules, and then you can go to some 342 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 3: other tech oligarch's country. But then what happens when the 343 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 3: tech oligarchs start fighting, as they inevitably will. Are they 344 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: going to maintain their private tech oligarch armies and there? 345 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 3: I mean, what are we doing? What are we doing? 346 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: What? 347 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: And how do they even envision the role of the 348 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: United States in all of this? And I don't really know, 349 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 3: other than maybe it's what you said. They'll be a 350 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 3: kind of insurance company with an army, and they'll be 351 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: there to sort of mediate these disputes so that David 352 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: Sachs and Elon Musk aren't sending armies of in cells 353 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: to fight with each other. I don't know. None of 354 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: it makes sense to me. 355 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: On Social Security. My grandmother had a an Irish immigrant. 356 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: She had a third grade education. She had four kids 357 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: and was pregnant three months pregnant with my father when 358 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: her husband died of par toniis she would have starved 359 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: a death without Social Security. But it's like Roosevelt friggin 360 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 2: saved her. But dismantling that Muscus called it a Ponzi scheme? 361 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: Is there money to be made here by first of 362 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: all making Social Security inoperable, cut its funding, cut its 363 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 2: it budget so it doesn't function anymore, Then blame it 364 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: for being poorly run after you've made it poorly run. 365 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: And then, of course the next step is to privatize 366 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: it or just not pay it out, so that the 367 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: vast majority of people are then dependent on sure on 368 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: what on the government and or on people like Elon Musko. 369 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: What's your sense why would tech brows and Musk in particular, 370 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: why would they be setting their sights on Social Security? 371 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 2: Because they must understand something has to come after it. 372 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 3: I can only assume what you just said is accurate, 373 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 3: that they want to privatize it, and that they know 374 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: that there's tremendous amounts of fees to be made in 375 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 3: financial transactions and management and all of this billions and 376 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 3: billions of dollars that they can then line their pockets 377 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: with to pursue their dreams of going to Mars or 378 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 3: whatever the hell they're trying to do. And I think 379 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: you you could make the good faith argument, although I 380 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: don't think it's necessarily very good faith argument, that social 381 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 3: Security could be made more profitable if you invested it in. 382 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 3: Those funds into the market are sort of risk your investments. 383 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 3: But all of that is blied by the events of 384 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 3: the last week. If you're relying on the market for 385 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: your retirement and then you see it crashing fifteen percent, 386 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 3: maybe twenty percent by the time this podcast airs, well, 387 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 3: aren't you shooting yourself in the foot. So security was 388 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 3: never designed to be an investment vehicle. It was designed 389 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 3: to be a safety net so that when you reach retirement, 390 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 3: or you have a disabled child, or you are a 391 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 3: young widow, you don't have to worry about that money 392 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: coming in. It was never meant to be a get 393 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 3: rich quick scheme. It was meant to supplement whatever retirement 394 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 3: savings or pension or later on for a one K 395 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 3: that you might have. And if you don't have those things, 396 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 3: then it will keep you, at the very least hopefully 397 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 3: right out of poverty. And that's enough. That's all it 398 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: was meant to do. That's all it ought to be doing. 399 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 3: And it drives me crazy, having a mother who worked 400 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 3: in source security for many years, it drives me crazy 401 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 3: to see them trying to dismantle literally the most successful 402 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: social program in our nation's history for no reason. 403 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of these things that 404 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: work against each other. At the same time, we are 405 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: using up a lot of our One of the reasons 406 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: that the administrations that they didn't want to give more 407 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: weapons to Ukraine is we don't want to use up 408 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: our weapons that we may need to fight the Chinese. 409 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: And then now we're using all of these weapons to 410 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: bomb the Yemenis and the Hootis. And the reason supposedly 411 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: we're doing that, and we know that because we've listened. 412 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: We watched the signal chat between the main players who 413 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: are looking to bomb yemen Is because we're worried about 414 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: global traffic through this Suez Canal and the fact that 415 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: it's disrupting global supply chains. But at the same time, 416 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: all of the policies of the government in tariffs are 417 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: destroying the supply chains of the world. So like, on 418 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: one hand, we're doing more damage to the supply chage 419 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: and business ability to think forward, and then we're bombing 420 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: the hell out of a country because we're claiming that's 421 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: what we're trying to protect. 422 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 3: I think that's right. And if that doesn't make sense 423 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: to you, then you just don't get it. Bro, they 424 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: just don't get it. Let me ask you how as CIA, 425 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 3: that's how bad from an intelligence perspective was the signal 426 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 3: gate thing. 427 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: It's bad on a number of levels. And the first 428 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: thing I think of, having been like Jerry, a senior 429 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: officer at CIA, is just on the leadership place. If 430 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: anyone could understand if you work for an organization and 431 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: your boss says one thing and does the other. Thing 432 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: that you're saying to everybody in your organization, the tens 433 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: of thousands of people, is you cannot do this. If 434 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: you do these things, you will be fired, prosecuted. It's dangerous, 435 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: it's against national security. You're helping our enemies. And then 436 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: they do it. And then not only do they do it, 437 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: but they then lie about it and obfuscate and then 438 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: pretend like it's normal. You've just sent a message to 439 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: your workforce that you're not serious, you don't care about 440 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: the things that you tell them to do. So on 441 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: the leadership side, it's bad. On the national security side 442 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: the fact that these people have been using private devices. 443 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: It was a window that opened up to show us 444 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: that's happening and let us all think about it. But 445 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: I think that's been happening for a long time. I 446 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: think foreign intelligence services have been living off of President 447 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: Trump's telephone and listening to everything and all the crazy 448 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: things he's doing talking to people. Once you can get 449 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: into someone's telephone, it doesn't matter that you're then using signal, 450 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: which is an encrypted thing, because signal, if you try 451 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: to break in between the two encrypted pieces, which is 452 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: the hard part, it's encrypted and it would take a 453 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: sophisticated organization to be able to do that. Can we 454 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: do it sometimes? So it's bad. I think it's bad 455 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: on the nest security front. It's bad on the security front, 456 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: it's bad on the leadership front. And then of course 457 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: the lying is the biggest problem, because leadership should be 458 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: about character, and our nationalecurity officials show that they have 459 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: no character and they can't be trusted. That sends another 460 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: message to our enemies. 461 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 2: And once you're in a device, you're in it. Yeah, 462 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 2: So maybe they're talking about Yemen, talking about Iran, talking 463 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: about the Ukraine, negotiations the Russian that for us would 464 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: be like that was our quest, if we can figure 465 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 2: out plans and intentions of the leadership. We've done everything, 466 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: We've done our job. And the fact that you've got 467 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: somebody with the phone in Moscow talking about this, you 468 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: just simply got to assume that not only did they 469 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 2: get his phone, they got everything on it. You got 470 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: to assume that. And let's be clear about this. People 471 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: are gonna get killed if the Russians got this, and 472 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 2: I think you got to be you have to just 473 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: assume they did. If they told the houtis in advance, 474 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: just hey, get your air defenses ready, just one phone call. 475 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: And the Russians do work with the hoodies, right, they 476 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: don't hit our ships. They do talk back and forth, 477 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 2: they trade. They certainly work with the Iranians. I'm going 478 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: to get in your jet and you're gonna lie in 479 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: and they're waiting for you. It's like the Battle of Midway. 480 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: We knew the Japanese were there. That's why that's why 481 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: we won the Battle of Midway and then won the 482 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: war in the Pacific. It was because of good intelligence. 483 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: So this is there's been so much other shit going 484 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: on that we've swept that under the carpet. But this 485 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: is horrific. Now I just want to quick come back 486 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: on the poker thing I've just seen right now as 487 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: we're talking, Trump apparently has paused all terrors and except 488 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 2: for China for ninety days. Right. 489 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: It's good because now we have all these new factories 490 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: that have been built in the last. 491 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: Line, all these new factories. Right. So I'm saying this 492 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: is this is a blink thing. So you're playing poker 493 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 2: and he's just you know, warinated on the tailor. He's 494 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: playing park. He's bluffing. Don't fuck with me, man, I 495 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: got four aces. And now he's he's funny. 496 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 3: He's folding because the rest of the world and the 497 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 3: nation called his bluff. They're like, you want to do this, Okay, 498 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna crash of markets. We're going to 499 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: create a new Asian Pact between China and Japan and 500 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 3: South Korea. We're gonna get Europe to retaliate. Like he folded. 501 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: He folded because it's stupid. I assume it's a declare 502 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 3: of victory and say, everybody's kissing my ass and everybody 503 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 3: wants to negotiate, so we can hold the we can 504 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 3: hold the tariffs for ninety days. But the problem, and look, 505 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: what do I know. I'm a jerk on I'm a 506 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 3: college shop out who believes in uf folks, So what 507 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 3: do I know? But it seems like it seems like 508 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: as an economic matter, how as a business person do 509 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 3: you project out for the next three months, six months, 510 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 3: year if you don't know every ninety days if Trump 511 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 3: is going to be slapping tariffs on all the nations 512 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 3: that you're trying to import your goods from, or are 513 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 3: you going to say, maybe I need to start investing 514 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 3: in the US and I'm gonna spend two billion dollars 515 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 3: creating new factories and infrastructure. And then four years from now, 516 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: some other dude gets in and it's listen and it's 517 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: just like, yeah, these tariffs make no sense, so we're 518 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 3: going back to free trade. Like, how do you plan 519 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: anything if you're a business person right now? I have 520 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 3: no idea. Thankfully, I'm an idiot about business and money, 521 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 3: so I don't have to worry about it too. 522 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 2: But let's talk politics for just for a second. Given 523 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: that we're going to actually have fair elections in twenty 524 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: twenty six D, which is not a given. But let's 525 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: run with that. Where do Republicans if they don't want 526 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: to lose the House in the Senate like your fo okay, 527 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 2: your Fox News. Let's pretend Rupert Murdoch is going to 528 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: live this long. And how do you spend this as 529 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: a as immediate personality yourself? How do you spin this 530 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 2: as a win? 531 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 3: It's a huge win? Are you kidding me? This is 532 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 3: this has been an incredible win for the American people 533 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 3: over the What have we seen over the last few days. 534 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 3: We've seen every single nation on earth, including the ones 535 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 3: that are only populated by penguins, picking up the phone 536 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 3: and calling the greatest president who has ever lived and said, 537 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 3: let's make a deal, mister president. All of them, even 538 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: the Pelicans, had tears in their eyes, just rolling down 539 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: their eyes as they say, you're absolutely right, mister President. 540 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: Not only were you right, we have been unfair and 541 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 3: we want to do whatever we can to ensure moving 542 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 3: forward that America is our biggest booster and friend and ally, 543 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 3: and we're just gonna write We're just going to write 544 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 3: checks to you, and the American people are getting rich, 545 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: richer than you can possibly imagine richer than they've ever 546 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: been because of this president's foresight and bold leadership. 547 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: Mister Fox News reporter, you just said yesterday that these 548 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: terrorists were going to stay in place for years so 549 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: that we would fundamentally change our system so that manufacturing 550 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: comes back to the United States. How do you say 551 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: that today's something completely different. 552 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 3: You in the fake media are so obst with this 553 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 3: president's comand of the American economy that you can't wrap 554 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 3: your heads around all the good things that he's doing. 555 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: The American people. Look at what the stock market is 556 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: doing right now, right now, and you will see the 557 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 3: bold leadership that this man has performed. And yes, we 558 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 3: need to bring back manufacturing to these shores, and all 559 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 3: of our conversations with our partner nations will ensure that 560 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: they invest right here in America. 561 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: And more importantly, it is wrong that trans athletes are 562 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: like fencing with real women. Let's talk about the really 563 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 2: important things about which bathroom you get to use? That's right, 564 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: That's all this economic stuff. Don't worry about it. Don't 565 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: worry your pretty little head, baby. 566 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 3: I have to say, John, just acting as a White 567 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: House spokesperson slash Fox News analyst, it's very easy. 568 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you'd be good at it. Yeah, to 569 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: try that, because if you're on CNN, no one's watching it. 570 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: You got to get over on Fox News. 571 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's easy to lie if you just don't care. 572 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: That's the thing is if you have one talking point 573 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: and it's just do whatever, say whatever it is to 574 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: make the present look good. Right, whether it's consistent with 575 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: yesterday or five minutes ago, does. 576 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 3: Consistency's irrelevant And when you're cornered attacked the questioner. 577 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 2: So let's take a break and be back in a moment. 578 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: Let's pick up where we left off. 579 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 3: I do like your theory about how no reason we're 580 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 3: so willing to get rid of things is because they 581 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 3: work so well, and so you don't understand that these 582 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 3: things are happening in the background. That's my theory about 583 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 3: how Trump got elected in the first place, because Obama 584 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 3: did a good job, and so the America was like, well, 585 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: if this guy who came out of nowhere and he's 586 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 3: just a black dude, if he can do the job, 587 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 3: then why wouldn't Why why wouldn't we elect this genius 588 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: billionaire business man. He'll do it ten times better. I 589 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 3: do think a good president makes it look easy, and 590 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 3: so you think anybody can do it, and then you 591 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 3: and up with a clown like this. 592 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: For years, it'll be like the government needs to be 593 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: run more efficiently like a business businessman. America is about business. 594 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: And I don't think previous presidents, even ones that we 595 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: thought did well, communicated effectively with the American people that 596 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: the government is different than a business and it's different 597 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: because it's in support of the American people. Like the 598 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: US government is set up for fairness, not efficiency necessarily, 599 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: So if the Defense Front wants to buy a new thing, 600 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: it has to put out bids and give everybody an 601 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: opportunity to bid. Everybody could do you can. They can't 602 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: just say Michael, I like you, your company is good, 603 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to buy your thing, and I'm not going 604 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: to look at so I can move fast, and the 605 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: same thing with Elon Musk. Yes he can blow up rockets. 606 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: I can move fast and destroy things. But if you're 607 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: in the US government and nasty, you can't just blow 608 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: up rockets. In other words, there are fundamental different things, 609 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: and it's not just efficiency and speed, it's other things. 610 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: So the business thing has never really been the proper 611 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 1: way to look at it. Yes, we want our government 612 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: to be a active and more efficient, but it is 613 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: going to be slower than potentially businesses. But businesses go 614 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: out of business all the time, and the United States 615 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: can't go out of business. 616 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 3: And the other thing that short of drives me crazy 617 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 3: about that analogy is the subtext of it, which is 618 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 3: that if the American government will run as a business, 619 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 3: it would then be in a sense profitable. We hear 620 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 3: this kind of talk when they talk about the post 621 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: Office or Amtrak or any number of services that the 622 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 3: government provides for the common good, that if we just 623 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 3: privatized it, the government or whomever could be making money 624 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 3: hand over fist with this stuff. But that is not 625 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 3: the purpose of government. The purpose of the post Office 626 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: is not to make money. It is to provide postal 627 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 3: service for the American people at an affordable price. And 628 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 3: that's just a common good. 629 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: If you wanted to make money with the post office, 630 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: you wouldn't send things to these talents with three people 631 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: and I'm way out in the middle of nowhere. Effective 632 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: thing to do is go to bigger places and cut 633 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: off these smaller places. But the postal services said, we're 634 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: going to make sure that every American, no matter where 635 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: they live, can get mail. 636 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 3: You can extrapolate that to the whole of government, because 637 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 3: in a sense, when you're saying you want the government 638 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: to be more efficient, in a way, what you're saying 639 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 3: is we want it to it's a rough analogy, but 640 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 3: we want it to make more money. We want it 641 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: to do more with the money that we provide it. 642 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 3: That is a natural and justifiable feeling to have. But 643 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 3: if you don't understand what the government actually does or 644 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 3: how it does it, you're not in a position to 645 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 3: say we just need to cut everything. You're just not 646 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 3: in that position. And the Democrats, I agree with you, 647 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 3: have never made the case, or at least in my lifetime, 648 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 3: for government why we have these things, why they're important, 649 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,760 Speaker 3: How your life will be materially worse without these things. 650 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 3: Like the fact that so many people think or thought 651 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 3: that the American government spends something like twenty percent of 652 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 3: its annual budget on foreign aid is maddening to me. 653 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 3: We pay a penny less than a penny on the 654 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 3: dollar for all of that foreign aid, all of that 655 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 3: stuff that we were doing, feeding people, saving lives, preventing aids, education, 656 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 3: helping women get out from under the thumbs of the 657 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 3: men in their lives and the patriarchal cultures that were 658 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 3: controlling them. Like all of that cost, relatively speaking, so 659 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 3: little and provided us so much in return, and we 660 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,959 Speaker 3: don't Nobody was making that argument, And I don't understand why. 661 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis was making the argument better than the US 662 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: government was. He's the best person I listened to on this. 663 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: Generationally, are at least my parents trusted the government because 664 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 2: their experience with the government was helped us out of 665 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 2: the Great Depression, right social security. We won World War Two, 666 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: we won the Cold War, And I really think it 667 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: all changed when Ronald came in, although he didn't mean 668 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: it this way, but he said, I'm from the government. 669 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: I'm here to help, and everybody laughed. If you're from FEMA, 670 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 2: you are from the government and you are there to help, right, 671 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: Or if you're making sure that people aren't driving in 672 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: unsafe vehicles, or the food you eat isn't poison, or 673 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 2: there's no insider trading the court's work. The police aren't 674 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 2: like bribeable like they are in the Third World. They 675 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: are from the government. They are here to help. But 676 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 2: I think this is something inside of the American psyche 677 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: to be distrustful of government. And I think that in 678 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: its measure is good. But like anything else, when you 679 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: take it to the NTS degree, you get to nihilism. 680 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 2: But before we go, I did want you to comment 681 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: on a conspiracy theory that I do buy into, but 682 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 2: I find very difficult to articulate. So all the countries 683 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 2: in the world, to include country, you know, places with 684 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: just penguins or poor little Lisutu or Bhutan, they all 685 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: got schwat with tariffs, but not at all. Russia didn't 686 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: get hit with a tear And then he's true that 687 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 2: off his order negotiating. We're also negotiating with Ukraine and 688 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 2: other places. So what do you think the deal is 689 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: with Russia and Trump? What is it? There's something everybody knows. 690 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 2: There's something. Everybody's senses it. John has written articles on it. 691 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 2: You know, in the intelligence community, we'll sit around Congressmen 692 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: have speculated on it. There is friggin' something. 693 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: I guess I know. I don't know if that I 694 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 3: ever was, but I guess I'm no longer of the 695 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 3: opinion that there's any sort of compromot or anything like that, 696 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 3: because Trump is so shameless, Like, what difference would it 697 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 3: make at this point, What possible information could they have 698 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: on him that would in any way damage him. I 699 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 3: don't think there's anything. 700 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: But it suggests that he needed help to win these elections. 701 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: It wasn't just himself, and he can't live with that. 702 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 3: So I'm at a loss. None of it. Is it 703 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 3: as simple as he looks at the way Putin runs 704 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 3: his nation. He understands that Putin is getting a kick 705 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 3: back on every dollar that these oligarchs earn. He understands 706 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 3: that Putin is arguably the richest man in the world, 707 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 3: or one of the richest men in the world, and 708 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 3: he just wants that. He said it over and over again. 709 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 3: I want generals who will salute me, and I want 710 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 3: Hitler's generals, and want when I want people to stand 711 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 3: up when I like he said all this stuff. It 712 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 3: might just be the sort of theatrics of power and 713 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 3: the image of it. And I think he's enraptured with 714 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 3: this idea of the strong man. And if he could 715 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 3: be the strong man of the strongest country that the 716 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 3: world has ever known, I could see that holding some 717 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 3: appeal for him. 718 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: You've written a little bit about Trump and a third term. 719 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: What's your take on that. 720 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 3: If And I know you guys know this, but your 721 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 3: viewers or your listeners and they probably know this too. 722 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 3: But clearly the playbook for this regime is to maintain 723 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 3: power at all costs. And the question is why. And 724 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,959 Speaker 3: we've talked on that a little bit, but I think 725 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 3: Trump understands and the Trump people understand that whatever that 726 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 3: goal is, whatever they're aiming for, cannot be accomplished in 727 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 3: this term. Fully, you can put the pieces in motion, 728 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 3: you can make it a lot more likely that this 729 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 3: project will succeed in four years, but it may not 730 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 3: be possible to execute everything they want to do in 731 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 3: that time. And they know, and Trump certainly believes, and 732 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 3: it's probably correctly that the movement falls apart without him. 733 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 3: That's probably true. And so if that's the case, then 734 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 3: you've got to figure out a way to keep this 735 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 3: guy in power. And that obviously feeds into his own 736 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 3: narcissism and ego. And so they're going to try any 737 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 3: novel theory that they can think of to get around 738 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 3: the constitution. And I'm not convinced they won't be successful. 739 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 3: I'm not convinced that John Roberts and whoever else is 740 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 3: going to somehow find some sort of narrow legal ruling 741 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 3: like they did with Gore v. Bush or Bush vers 742 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 3: or whatever that was, to sort of allow some weird 743 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 3: precedent that will allow him to serve or he'll do 744 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 3: like a Putin Medyedev thing where they where he gets 745 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 3: Vance to be the president and he's the vice president 746 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 3: and then Vance resigns. I don't know, but I don't 747 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 3: think he's going to go quietly. And he said that 748 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 3: he's been talking about this since his first administration, and 749 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 3: I don't see any indication that he's at all joking, 750 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 3: and he said in recent days he's not joking. 751 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 2: I think the one thing I would add to that, though, 752 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 2: is I think he doesn't want to go to jail. 753 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 2: I think he knows he's guilty of a lot of shit. 754 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 3: Okay, so he knows that, and he knows they all 755 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 3: know that twenty twenty six, at least the elections were 756 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 3: held today, would be a blood bath for them. So 757 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 3: you got to figure they're already anticipating that. So what 758 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 3: are they going to do? Where are they going to 759 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 3: do that? 760 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: I think there's a conspiracy there. I don't know what 761 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: it is yet. 762 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: Act cheap. 763 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 2: It's a hell of a pig parade. 764 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: Michael. Awesome to talk to you. As always, I do 765 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: follow your substec I think it's really fascinating and we 766 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: hope we can have you on it anytime. 767 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 3: I'm mostly unemployed. Even though I'm on TV and I 768 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 3: write the sun Stack, I'm mostly unemployed. 769 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 770 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 4: and Jonathan Stern. 771 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 2: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 772 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable mention and Abominable 773 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 4: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.