1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the anti trans Missouri ag can 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: now access trans people's medical records. We have such an 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: interesting show for you today. Cereals co hosts Sarah Koenig 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: and Danish Shivis join us to talk about their newest 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: season on Gwintanamo Bay. Then we'll talk to Chief Medical 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: Officer for Planned Parenthood Arizona, doctor Jill Gibson, about women's 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: reproductive health in the state of Arizona. But first we 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: have the host of the Enemy's List, the One, the Only, 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson. Welcome back, my friend, the Monday Special with 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: the Rick Wilson. 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Happy Monday to everyone, and happy Donald Trump's squirming like 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: a miserable worm in court all day to those who celebrate. 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: So let's talk about this week. The thing I'm so 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: incredibly irritated with is the people are like, wow, this 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: is the least good case. You know, it's his state 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: case that goes up to a federal case. Right. The 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: idea is that when you pay off the adult film 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: star that you're having an affair with after your third 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: wife is delivered your fifth child. If you do that 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: in the hopes of keeping it from coming out right 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: before in a presidential election, that's technically a campaign finance violation, 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: which I mean, the problem is it's just like the 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,199 Speaker 1: idea of like Trump having to technically follow a lot 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: like the rest of us is kind of like not 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: how we do it. 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: It irritates him greatly, but also like. 29 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: The whole country has been set up to like, let 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: Trump do what Trump does. 31 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: You know. That's one of the things that we keep 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: under counting I think in our politics right now is 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: that we hear this all the time talking to reporters, 34 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: Like I'll call reporter and say, you know, this thing 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: is that it's like, oh yeah, everybody knows. Oh yeah, 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: everybody knows that bad that's what he is. It's just 37 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: Trump being Trump, and they have wired it so far 38 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: into their discount rate of Trump that the horror of 39 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: these things, which should horrify people, people should be like, 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: oh shit, not whoo who weird. Yeah, they should be 41 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: shocked about these things. They just don't seem to have 42 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: a reaction to them that is merited by the extremity 43 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: of the criminality that he engages in all the time. 44 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost as if like this sort of DC 45 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: intelligentsia has overthunk Trump. I mean, part of it is 46 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: that none of us are over twenty sixteen, right, And 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: so you know, in twenty sixteen, we all thought we knew, 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean, talk about that. 49 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: So twenty sixteen, I think there were three mental breakpoints. 50 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: This is not particularly a novel thought. The first was, ha, 51 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: Trump could never win the general, never could win the 52 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: primary a true conservative like Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz. 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: That Republicans would never accept a profligate, morally bankrupt, lifetime philanderer, adulter, scumbag, 54 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: weirdo former Democrat Hillary donor You feel like. 55 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: He's listening, right. I feel like when you go in 56 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: these tangents, it's because you know someone from the RNC 57 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: is listening to this, and you just want them to 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: hear every. 59 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: Pope poke poke any way. Yeah, no, but we thought that, 60 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: you know, initially in sixteen, everyone thought that Trump's absurdity 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: and lack of conservative credential would disqualify him. Okay, cool. 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: Then they thought all the things people were discovering about 63 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: Trump and that Trump was doing and saying John McCain 64 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: wasn't a war hero, suckers and all the you'll pile 65 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: it up, pilot up. And then there was like that 66 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: disqualifies them. And then and this was on the media 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: and on the Democratic side, why no one could ever 68 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: defeat the great Hillary Clinton, the best candidate ever? 69 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, you're so naughty, because it's like, yeah, right, 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: she was not a good Yeah. 71 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: She's not a good candidate. Set aside her other merits 72 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: and virtues. I think even she would tell you she's 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: not a natural at the politicking. Part. 74 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: Part of it is that part of it is that 75 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: America just is not ready to have a woman president 76 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: at least well. 77 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: And part of it was that Roger Ails and Rupert 78 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: Murdock had spent thirty years turning her into the demonic 79 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: Queen of Hell and blah blah blah. 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: Right, a really good point she had, and that really 81 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: did work. 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 2: It worked at scale. So what I'm saying is the 83 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: misapprehensions of twenty sixteen led reporters to say, Okay, well, 84 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: you know what, everybody knows that about Trump. Everybody gets 85 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: it about Trump. But people didn't. They did not get it, 86 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: They did not know it. These were things that they 87 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: still haven't internalized, and that today the Republicans work the 88 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: refs better than any anything else. They work the rest, 89 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: They worked him for years now, and they're desperately afraid 90 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: to not platform and to not salute, and to not 91 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: treat the fraise out of Trump's mouth as if they 92 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: are uttered by a normal, sane candidate. Now, I think 93 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: we all know by now that Donnie is not normal. 94 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: He is not sane. He is not a candidate or 95 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: a man who plays by the rules that the press 96 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: seems to think he's playing by. He doesn't play by 97 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: any rules, and that for his people they love that. 98 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: But for reporters and for political establishment types and for 99 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: everyone else, they think, okay, well, someday he'll be under control. 100 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: Why a second term can't possibly be as crazy as 101 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: the first. But they keep platforming the guy in a 102 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: way that doesn't treat the madness in his front and 103 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 2: center away as it legitimately deserves to be treated. So 104 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: what we're going to do again is act like these 105 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: cases are just baked in the cake, that they're normal, 106 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 2: that the things that Trump gets away with he gets 107 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: a special dispensation for, and honestly, right now people in 108 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: the media that are you know people you and I 109 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: both know they struggle with it, and yet at the 110 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: end of the day they still write the same attenuated 111 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: deferential stories. And look, I have seen some improvement lately 112 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: MSN and seeing in both this week I went at 113 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: Trump's lying really well, like leading out, like Trump lied 114 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: today about his position on abortion, his lie about this 115 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 2: This is a false statement by Trump, But there's still 116 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: too much of quoting the madness as a fact. Trump 117 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: today reported that Biden was conspiring against him in the courts, 118 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: and the courts are run by Joe Biden. They still 119 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: don't frame it legitimately as journalists and say this colossal 120 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: lie by a criminal who is lying. No criminal has 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: ever not been in court willing to say no. I'm 122 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: being framed by the bad people. And that's what Trump's doing. 123 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 2: And there's a degree to which He's getting away with it. 124 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: The problem with pundit world, the pundit industrial complex of 125 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: which we are ones is part of it, is that 126 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: there's like a feeling that you have to be right 127 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: and you have to know so when you approach this case, 128 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: you say, wow, it's not as strong a case as 129 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: the documents case, which is there's not much to prove, right. 130 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: He took the documents, he kicked the documents. They asked 131 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: for the documents back, he said, no, thank you, I'm 132 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: not going to give them back. But you know, you 133 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: have a trumpy judge. And like this is the thing 134 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: about you know, we talk so much about like the guardrails, 135 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: and these guardrails were really set up for politicians who 136 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: were willing to sort of say, oh this is enough, 137 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, who were able to self regulate, which Trump cannot. 138 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: My favorite cope right now that I'm watching come out 139 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: of like the National Review, guys like Dan McLaughlin and 140 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: Rich Lowry, it's like the guardrails and institutions of America 141 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: will Trump bounded? He's certainly not going to violate the 142 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: sacred constitutional order of America? 143 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: Right, Like the. 144 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: Fuck are you talking about? Who the fuck are you 145 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: talking about? You're talking about Donald J. Trump? And anyone 146 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: who tells you, folks, is a really simple test. Anybody 147 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: who says to you, America's institutions are so resilient that 148 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: Trump would never even dream of violating the right. Have 149 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: you been asleep or in a coma or drunk for 150 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: the last eight years. He is always going to do 151 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: what he tells you he will do. He's going to 152 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: violate the law, the constitution, is. 153 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: Going to be a dictator on day one. 154 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: He's going to be a dictator. And by the way, 155 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: I've defied people, like, give me an example of someone 156 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: who was a dictator for only a day. The allure 157 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 2: of power is too strong. 158 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: Well, also, first of all, I'm going to be a 159 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: dictator on day one and get us drilling. We're the 160 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: largest exporter. We don't need to drill anymore. In fact, 161 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: we drill so much, you know, and that. But also 162 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: it's bullshit. Of course he's going to be He's gonna 163 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: do dinner on day one and day two and day three. 164 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no What I'm like irritated by is 165 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: that everyone's like, well, we got to give Donald Trump 166 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt. No we don't. 167 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: No, no, no benefit of the doubt is required for 168 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. We know what he is. He is telling 169 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: us what he will do. And the idea that anyone 170 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: at this point in our history in this country has 171 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: a doubt about what this will look like. And anyone 172 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: who's giving you excuses like he's learned his lesson. You know, 173 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: this is Hitler Tamed by Prison New York Times headline, 174 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty six. It doesn't work that way with this guy. 175 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: And I know people are like, how do you compare 176 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler? 177 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: He hasn't started a camp yet. 178 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: He hasn't actually put an anybody in a box car 179 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: to a death camp yet. 180 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: But it is like very annoying to me too, that, 181 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: like we don't ever talk about that. Donald Trump decided 182 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: to declare his presidential run because he was hoping it 183 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: would prevent him from being indicted. 184 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't want to go to prison. He doesn't 185 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: want to be indicted. We really now have seen what 186 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars will do to throw sand in 187 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: the gears of the oh of our resilient laws and 188 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: institutions and systems. Uh huh. 189 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 190 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 2: And imagine when he's president again, what happens to all 191 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 2: of those cases that are out there? You know what happens? 192 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: They go away. We're lucky Merrick Garland hasn't pulled the 193 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: plug on how the federal cases already. 194 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm reading this book America first. You know about this book? 195 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I have it. 196 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: The history of the right. Yeah, I know you'll be 197 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: shocked to hear this, but a lot of this stuff, 198 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, like, there were periods before World War Two 199 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: where the right was pretty aligned with Hitler and said 200 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: things like, you know, the America First Movement. The name 201 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: America First came from a group that supported this Isola 202 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: Wang and Charles Lindberg. 203 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: Look, the German American Bund was an incredibly broad and 204 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: powerful political force that was growing in influence in this country. 205 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: They were outright seditionists, and before that it was friends 206 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: of the New German Order or something like that. These 207 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: were people, by the way, tell me if this rings 208 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: a bell, who were right leaning Americans who were deeply 209 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: enamored with a strange model of an authoritarian in an 210 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: overseas nation. And today those same people are the America firsters. Look, 211 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: you've got JD. Vance writing in the pages of the 212 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: New York Times like, dear mister Putin, may I come 213 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: and give you a foot massage? And by the way, 214 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: I know the Times has had plenty of moments where 215 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: it is questioned whether it should be platforming certain people. 216 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: And you know what, if they want to platform Jada 217 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: Vance that's fine, but they should have people who are 218 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: putting forth actual, true statements as opposed to what Jade 219 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 2: Vance did in The Times this week, which was to 220 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: lie repeatedly about Ukraine and about the American role in Ukraine, 221 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: and to lie repeatedly about the consequences of giving up 222 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: and allowing Vladimir Putin to roll up in the streets 223 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: of Europe. 224 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, with the New York Times, I would just say, 225 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: and I know everyone's going to get mad at me 226 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: for saying this, but you know, they are the biggest newspaper. 227 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: They set the tone for a lot of the conversations 228 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: we have, and so they sometimes people get mad at them. 229 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: And they are a big enough, strong enough institution where 230 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: they should be able to handle that. 231 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 2: You know, they should have, and unfortunately, I think that 232 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: they have not learned their lesson about when you platform 233 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: a Tom Cotton or a platform a JDA events. At 234 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: this moment in our history, they're not honest brokers. They 235 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: are people who are defending an emergent global fascist movement 236 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: in our century and not in the nineteen thirties. And 237 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: there were plenty of people in the nineteen thirties who 238 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: were willing to defend Hitler. In America, there were plenty 239 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: of people in this moment who are willing to defend 240 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin and any other authoritarian that comes down the block. 241 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: But the rights love of authoritarianism has been around for 242 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: a long time. That's what I'm saying. It's not oh yeah. 243 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: And over the weekend you had this moment of utter 244 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: confusion among a lot of people on the far right 245 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: who are like, Okay, wait, so Russia is Iran's ally, 246 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: but Iran is attacking Israel. But we don't really like 247 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 2: the Jews that much, but we don't like the Iranians, 248 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: but we love the Russian And you could hear like 249 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: the gears in their heads going and the machine blowing. 250 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very hard for them, you know. I mean, 251 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: it's a very simplistic view on the world. 252 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: It is a sad view, I think in a lot 253 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: of ways in the world. It is a view that 254 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: diminishes the sacrifices of Americans over the last eighty years 255 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: since World War Two, when we fought the Long War 256 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: against the Nazis and against German and authoritarianism, and then 257 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: we fought the Long War against Sylviet communism, and now 258 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: we've sort of unwound that with this amazing emergence of 259 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: affection and love for a new strain of authoritarianism in 260 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 2: the world. It's bad right now, but if Trump is 261 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: returned to power by some misfortune, it will be utterly 262 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: catastrophic because, as we've seen the reporting in the last 263 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: few days, Trump's quote unquote great plan to end the 264 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: war in Ukraine is to give Russia Ukraine. 265 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: That is true, but that's to. 266 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: Cut them off and to give them Ukraine. Oh well, 267 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: that's gonna work out great for everybody except you know, Ukraine. Wow, 268 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: and Europe and NATO Poland. 269 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Poland would like a word, you know. Yeah, 270 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: to watch American conservatives love affair with Putin and earn 271 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: On continue. This is not so different than they were 272 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: with Hitler. So the point is now we wait. 273 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: And by the way, Maga's if you're listening and you're 274 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: not happy with what we're saying about comparing Trump and 275 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: Putin to Hitler, then they should be less like Hitler. 276 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: Then they should be less affectionate towards Hitler. 277 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: I think that Putin certainly does kill all his enemies. Trump, 278 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: it's a little bit different for now right. Well, and also, 279 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: this authoritarian style of leadership is not how we do 280 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: it in this country. 281 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 2: Well, it's not how we have done it in this country. 282 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: If we re elect Donald Trump, that is how we 283 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: do it. That is how we will be doing it 284 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: in this country. If we reelect Donald Trump, that is 285 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: what will happen in this country. They will engage in 286 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: use the use of authoritarian power because they've justified it 287 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: in their minds by saying, well, we're in a generational 288 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: civilizational battle and unless we win now by whatever means necessary, 289 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: then the white race will die out right. 290 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: Well, and that's what this is. It's the last gasp 291 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: of racism and the sort of death now of I don't. 292 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: Know, Molly, I wouldn't say it's the last gasp, you 293 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: know why. I think they're breathing pretty easily. I think 294 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: they've got a pretty comfortable feeling right now that they 295 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: have managed to mainstream a lot of things that twenty 296 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: five years ago we would have said. Twenty five years ago, 297 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: conservative Republicans would have said, f out of here, you're 298 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: too racist. 299 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: Well, the right has moved to the right, but the 300 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: left has moved to the center at least for now. 301 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, thank you. 302 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: You are very welcome and I will talk to you 303 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: again next time. 304 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: Spring is here. And I bet you are trying to 305 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all 306 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store 307 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats, 308 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com. 309 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: Sarah Koenig and Danish Shivs are the co hosts of Cereal. 310 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: Welcome Sarah, Hello, thank you, and welcome Dana. 311 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: Hi. 312 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 4: Thanks for having us. 313 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: I feel like it's the most famous podcast in the world, 314 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: but I guess it's probably not right, or is it. 315 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: I mean, you're asking wrong people, obviously, No, I mean 316 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 3: I don't know. 317 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 4: I don't know it not Joe Rogan. 318 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: You know that, right, right, Okay, you're right, all right, 319 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: that's a good point. Joe Rogan is serial. It's important. Yes, 320 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: Oh this is Cereal. I'm introducing you guys. We are 321 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: going to talk about this incredible podcast that really did start. 322 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: I mean, there have been movies made of it, but 323 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: it is true. All of us are much poorer and 324 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: less famous than Joe Rogan. I think it's important to 325 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: take a moment too. Though he did eat a bug 326 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: on television and he was the host of Fear Factor. Ergo, 327 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: I take all my health advice from him. So talk 328 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: to me about what this season of Cereal looks like. 329 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 4: This season of Cereal, we devoted the whole podcast to 330 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 4: stories about Gantanamo, and each episode food is a different 331 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 4: story that has taken place over the course of Guantanama's 332 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 4: twenty two year history. But the thing we were trying 333 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 4: to do was actually go to the individual stories, so 334 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 4: story the people on the ground at Guantanamo who have 335 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 4: sort of been put through that very weird system there 336 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 4: and spat out the other side for the most part, 337 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 4: and so sort of look at Guantanama through the lens 338 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 4: of the individuals on the ground who have actually had 339 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 4: to deal with the place as part of their lives. 340 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: So that includes plenty of Americans personnel, interrogators, guards, commanders, lawyers, 341 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 4: but also a bunch of former detainees as well. 342 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 3: It's nine episode. We hope we're still working and it's 343 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 3: like a weird personal history. We wanted to call it 344 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,479 Speaker 3: people's history in the in the first episode, but then 345 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 3: I got embarrassed. I thought people would think we were 346 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 3: ripping off Howard's in because we were, by the. 347 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: Way, In case you're wondering, nobody's thinking that, like you know, 348 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: you're like in the sort of intelligentsia when that's your aside. 349 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: So that's kind of what it is. It's kind of 350 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: a human scale, I don't. 351 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 3: Know, a small scale history, personal personal history of what 352 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 3: this place has been like for people who have experienced it, 353 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 3: either from the working their side or running it and 354 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: also locked up. 355 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: There is the theory here that it says a lot 356 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: about America this site. 357 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: Yes, of course it does. Of course it does. 358 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 4: I know it's hard to start talking about. 359 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 3: What Guantanamo means and then it starts to get very 360 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 3: ponderous and kind of sad. But you know, if you're 361 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: asking yet. I was talking to a sort of colleague 362 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 3: in the audio world recently and he put it so nicely, 363 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, I'm going to steal that. 364 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: Which was I don't know. 365 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: He was just saying, like, we have actually a really 366 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 3: high tolerance for abandoning our ideals and our views in America, 367 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 3: and we. 368 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: Sort of hide that most of the time. 369 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 3: But Guantanamo it was like it seems like Guantamau's this 370 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: place where we stored all of that. 371 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 4: It was like, it's like a. 372 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 3: Repository for our tolerance for aberration in our criminal justice 373 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 3: system or and in the way that we prosecute war 374 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 3: and crime. 375 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: I think about, you know, I lived in New York 376 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: during nine to eleven, and so I feel like that 377 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: was the sort of excuse we used to sort of 378 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: betray all of these American values. It was such a 379 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: long time ago, it is burned into my brain, like 380 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: my experience is during nine to eleven, like the people 381 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: that I knew who died, the like seeing the plane 382 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: fly into the towers like it is for years when 383 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: I would hear ambulances, I would think like, oh, they've 384 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: got there. It's another one, like you know, because the sounds, 385 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: the smells like it did birth this shadow world, right. 386 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, And that's the thing that you know 387 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: that's been interesting in reporting. It is just having to 388 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 3: really contemplate the different points of view and some of 389 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 3: which you you know, I as a reporter, and maybe 390 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 3: data too, like we don't agree with and so you 391 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 3: can kind of walk through life for a long time 392 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 3: being like well, that's bullshit. But you talk to these 393 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 3: people and they really are, like, my job was to 394 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 3: protect the American people. We didn't know what was coming next, 395 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: and like you're saying, like you sort of have this 396 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 3: expect you're bracing for the next attack, kind of for 397 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 3: the next crisis at that time, and that was It's 398 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 3: easy to forget that that was real, that feeling and 399 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 3: that fear, and that there were a bunch of people 400 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 3: whose job it was to like run it down and 401 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 3: make sure it doesn't happen again. 402 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: That is an impossible job. 403 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 3: And so they were trying to do it. 404 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: And I don't I don't excuse. 405 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 3: You know, some of the terrible things that happened, but 406 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 3: you have a greater understanding, I think for that pressure 407 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 3: and what that pressure felt like for people. 408 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, when we were talking about it, I mean, we 409 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: were all in an impossible situation, but it ended up 410 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: being made so much worse. What is this status of 411 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: GETMO right now? And what is because I know there, 412 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and what about this sort of like interesting 413 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: legal kind of nuance of where these people went and 414 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: what happened to that give me sort of the some 415 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: of the sort of interesting through lines. 416 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 4: While you were bringing up like nine to eleven was 417 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 4: so long ago, And in one sense, it was like, 418 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 4: in doing this podcast, one of the things we debated 419 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 4: a lot is like how much of this era do 420 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 4: we have to explain, Like do we have to explain 421 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 4: to people who the Taliban are? What's the difference between 422 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 4: the Taliban and al Qaeda? And then in another sense, 423 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: like it wasn't actually that long ago. 424 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 5: And I think a lot. 425 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 4: Of people have sort of relegated Guantanamo to history, but 426 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 4: the fact of the matter is there are still thirty 427 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 4: men locked up at Guantano today. The prison is still open. 428 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: It's a quarter of a century later and they're still there. 429 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, not all at one time, but seven hundred 430 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: and eighty prisoners have been held there over time, so 431 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 4: it's obviously vastly reduced from the population that. 432 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: It used to be. 433 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 4: But just to say, like, it's not a thing that's 434 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 4: that is relegated to history yet, because it's it's actually 435 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 4: still like right there, Like yeah, theoretically you could go 436 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 4: to the prison right now and visit it. 437 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 438 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 4: For a lot of the prisoners who have been released, 439 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 4: they really struggle because they were at Guantanamo and what 440 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 4: people know Guantanamo to be is a prison for terrorists, right, 441 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 4: Like that's sort of how we all sort of shorthand 442 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 4: the place. And so it's really hard to be released 443 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 4: from a place like that and try to go back 444 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 4: into society and restart your life when you're coming with 445 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 4: the sort of like taint of a place like that. 446 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 5: A lot of them really really struggle having left. 447 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: But also, what were no rules? Right? Some people were 448 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: sent there first one reason, some were sent there for another. 449 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: It wasn't you know, there was a certain like sort 450 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: of constitutional pause, right that you could be sent there 451 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: if you were I mean they weren't even all American citizens, right, yeah. 452 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 4: I mean they weren't not American citizens. And basically Guantanamo 453 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 4: originally was meant to be, for all intents and purposes, 454 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 4: basically a prisoner of war camp. But the Bush administration 455 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 4: did not want to have to follow certain rules Geneva conventions, namely, 456 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 4: and so didn't work around Basically, they worked around that 457 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 4: by not ever calling it a prisoner of war camp, 458 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 4: not ever calling the prisoners prisoners of war. They were 459 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 4: unlawful enemy combatants, which their lawyers interpreted to me, and 460 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 4: they could treat differently than we sort of would normally 461 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 4: quote unquote normally. That's really like the point at which 462 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 4: everything kind of went awry and started to go awry, 463 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 4: and it's just you know, it's lasted now for twenty 464 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 4: two years, and so from that sort of original aberration, 465 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 4: now you have like just this sort of like aberrations 466 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 4: in all the other normal systems that should have followed, 467 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 4: and most expressly the justice system that they built there, 468 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 4: which is sort of looks like a justice system but 469 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 4: does not act like a normal justice system. 470 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: You know, what does it look like? 471 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 3: So Guantanamo is it's a bunch of things, but principally 472 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 3: it's two things. There's this what we casually call a prison. 473 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 3: They don't call it a prison, they call it a 474 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: detention facility. But so there's this prison that operates kind 475 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 3: of like a prison you would recognize in the United 476 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 3: States at this point. 477 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 5: It didn't in the beginning, but now it does. 478 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: And then there's a court. There's a special court there 479 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: that is functioning incredibly slowly in some cases. But the 480 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: case that most people have heard about it, if they've 481 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 3: heard about any of them, is the case against the 482 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 3: men accused of planning nine to eleven, the nine eleven attacks, 483 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 3: and that case has been There have been various versions 484 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: of this court that get stood up and then declared 485 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 3: not okay, and then they get revised and stood up again. 486 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 3: The current court that's functioning I think has been going 487 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 3: since twenty twelve, and so that case of the nine 488 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: to eleven defendants, I mean in other cases as well, 489 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 3: but that's sort of the one that most people are 490 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: aware of, has been in pre trial more than ten years, 491 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 3: twelve years, something like that, and it is nowhere near 492 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 3: going to trial, and it could get settled by a 493 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 3: plea agreement, and that is maybe the more likely thing 494 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: that would happen. That's been up in the air now 495 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 3: for a while. But the core issue there, and this 496 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 3: is across a couple of the other cases as well 497 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 3: that are being considered in the Military court, there is 498 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 3: there are a bunch of men who are at Guantanamo 499 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 3: now who were held in secret CIAUS Tody what we called, 500 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 3: you know, known as the black sites for about four years, 501 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 3: most of them, and they were tortured there and held 502 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: in communicato and then in two thousand and six they 503 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 3: were brought to Guantanamo and that's when we kind of technically, 504 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 3: you know, are we're trying to sort of try them 505 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 3: based on evidence gathered from the point when they got 506 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 3: to Guantanamo's forward. 507 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 5: And that is the fight, that's. 508 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 3: The essential fight, is a bunch of people saying, you know, 509 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: on the day fence side saying you cannot, these might 510 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,959 Speaker 3: have been tortured. Therefore there is no evidence really that 511 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 3: you've gathered since then, or the evidence that you've gathered 512 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 3: since then is all tainted by the way in which 513 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: they were held and tortured in CIA custody, and the 514 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 3: government saying no, no, that's a distinct period that was over, 515 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 3: and then moving forward, we can use the evidence that 516 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 3: we have gathered since then. I'm simplifying it, but that 517 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: is the afferential dating is like, can we prosecute these 518 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: men who we tortured in CAA custody? 519 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 5: And the answer is kind of like not, really, it's 520 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 5: not working. 521 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: I mean, we shouldn't laugh because it's horrendous and it's 522 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: such a miscarriage of justice, and also it's just so disturbing. 523 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 3: It's horrible what we did to these men. In a way, 524 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: it's also so so horrible for the families of the 525 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 3: people who died in that attack. 526 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: Yes, they haven't gone away. 527 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: They are watching and waiting and agonizing. And this has 528 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: now been for them literally more than twenty years. 529 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: Right, you know, they are in this sort of suspended 530 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: animation waiting for this trial that some of them may 531 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: be called to testify in. 532 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, but you know, lor it's you know, people are. 533 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: They want to move on, or not even move on, 534 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: but they want just they want answers. 535 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 5: People who have like spoken out in the past. 536 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: They're just like they're old, you know, and some of 537 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 3: them have died before they're able to kind of anyway. 538 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 3: So it's that part is also I think doesn't get 539 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 3: talked about that much that our treatment of those defendants 540 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: has denied the families any closure. 541 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if. 542 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: Closure is the word I would use. I think that's 543 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 3: sort of a personal word to you. I just mean 544 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 3: any don't resolution, any resolution. 545 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, So what do you think the next season is 546 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: going to be And do you feel like this is 547 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: such a different what's a departure from how you've done 548 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: it in the past, this story, Yeah, well this season. 549 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 5: Not really, I don't think so. 550 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: I think all of our seasons have been in about 551 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: ish the same thing, which is oh interesting, judgment and 552 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: punishment of each other, and what are the systems that 553 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 3: we have to meet that out. So I actually don't 554 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 3: think of it as very different. I think the locus 555 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 3: of the stories is certainly different, and it is a 556 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 3: different world, and Guantanamo is truly its own world. I mean, 557 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 3: it's fascinating, and I didn't really get it till a 558 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: little more recently, but then I started thinking about it, 559 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is really quite similar to 560 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 3: season three, where we just spent a year and a 561 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 3: half or so inside a felony courthouse in Cleveland, Ohio, 562 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: just to say like, Okay, here's how your average felony 563 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: courthouse works in America. Let's see what goes on inside 564 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 3: and how our systems are working. It's not that different 565 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 3: this series. It's structured kind of similarly. I mean that 566 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 3: one is that historical in the way that this one is, 567 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: but the questions are sort of the same. It's like, 568 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 3: how do regular people inside these systems? How do they 569 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 3: make decisions? And what are the pressures on them? And 570 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 3: how do they function inside a thing that's kind of broken? 571 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: Do you guys feel that you've learned anything about sort 572 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: of criminal justice reform or any of this sort of 573 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: larger law and order or stuff that you think is 574 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: important or relevant from your experience doing this. 575 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 4: I think the main takeaway for me is like, we 576 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 4: have a justice system and it's not perfect, but it works, 577 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 4: and we should rely on it and not just throw 578 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 4: it out the window when we get scared. And that's 579 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 4: basically what happened. You know, after nine to eleven, we 580 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 4: got scared, we threw our systems out the window. We 581 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 4: tried to rebuild something that we thought would be more 582 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 4: amenable to our end goals. And now here we are 583 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 4: twenty two years later, and we're still caught in the 584 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 4: muck of it all. 585 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: And you know, as you. 586 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 4: Guys were talking about a minute now, the guy who 587 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 4: is accused of being the mastermind of nine eleven is 588 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 4: still in pre trial hearings. 589 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 5: That's crazy. 590 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 4: And it happened because we just decided to circumvent our 591 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 4: you know, imperfect but time testing systems. 592 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 5: So I think that's kind of my takeaway from it. Yeah, 593 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 5: i'd agree with that. 594 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: I Mean what's hard for me is is that I 595 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: think the criminal justice system that the like the normal 596 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 3: one we had of that we have on the mainland 597 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: is so messed up that it's hard for me to 598 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 3: be like, yeah, that would use that one. But I 599 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 3: will say Guantanamo really makes it look good, and so like. 600 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: That is the most terrible. Yeah. 601 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 3: But on the other hand, I mean there's so many 602 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: there's so many technical things that I could say. 603 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 5: About you know, reform that I think should happen. 604 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 3: I think in a more philosophical way, I just wish 605 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 3: we were all had a lot more humility about things 606 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 3: we think are true and right. 607 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 5: It just I think we as a. 608 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 3: Culture have just a very hard time questioning ourselves. And 609 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: I don't know why that is, but that's what it 610 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 3: all needs more of. And I think disturbingly what I 611 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 3: see happening in this country and in a lot of 612 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 3: you know, so called democracies now is less and less 613 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 3: of that questioning and in fact sort of being more 614 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 3: categorical and more sure of ourselves and our opinions than 615 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 3: we used to be. 616 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: Thank you, Sarah and Dana, Thank you for having me us. 617 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: Doctor Joe Gibson is the chief medical officer for Planned 618 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: Parenthood Arizona. Welcome to Fast Politics, Doctor Joe Gibson. 619 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 5: Thank you. 620 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: Tell us what you do and what your title is. 621 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, I My name is Til Gibson, and I am 622 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 5: the chief medical officer at Planned Parenthead Arizona, and that 623 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 5: means that I get to oversee all of our whole 624 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 5: host of services, all components of sexual and reproductive healthcare 625 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 5: we offer, but I specifically head up our abortion service line. 626 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: Where are we right now? Like, there's been so much drama, 627 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: so much legislation, and so much lack of legislation. What 628 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: does the country look like right now when it comes 629 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: to abortion. 630 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 5: It is a complete mess. It is complete chaos. It 631 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 5: is confusion, it is panic In Arizona. We have literally 632 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 5: been on an emotional roller coaster since months before the 633 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 5: Dobs decision, since the leak of the dab's decision, when 634 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 5: we were recognizing that we were needing to prepare to 635 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 5: pause and then eventually halt abortion services, restart abortion services, 636 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 5: halt abortion services, restart again. And then I have to 637 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 5: say there was a period of time after we had 638 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 5: a rightfully decided Court of Appeals decision that enabled us 639 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 5: to safely provide abortions with still many restrictions, including a 640 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 5: really agreeous fifteen week ban, but we felt comfortable. We 641 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,719 Speaker 5: started rebuilding, we started reinvesting. We made the decision that 642 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 5: even though there was still the threat that this case 643 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 5: could be heard by the Arizona Supreme Court, that our 644 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 5: community deserved it for us to continue to work towards 645 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 5: providing them access to abortion services. And you know, in 646 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 5: my heart of hearts, I just couldn't understand a world 647 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 5: where a law from eighteen sixties, before Arizona was a state, 648 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 5: before women had the right to vote. I just couldn't 649 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 5: understand a world where that could be applied into this 650 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 5: modern society. And so I let that drive my operations. 651 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 5: I let that lead me to continue to grow my 652 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 5: abortion program even though this looming thread has existed, and 653 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 5: so we built. We got new doctors, we brought in 654 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 5: new nurses, we started a whole entire volunteer doula program 655 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 5: to support our patients as they're having their abortions. And 656 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 5: even when the Areaona Supreme Court decided to hear this case, 657 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 5: I still in my naivete despite having my heart broken 658 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 5: over and over again by the government and the politicians 659 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 5: and the legislators who think they can tell what to 660 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 5: do with our bodies. I still didn't think it would happen, 661 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 5: And on Tuesday morning, the same thing happened as happened 662 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 5: on June twenty fourth of twenty twenty two, when the 663 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 5: dob's decision was announced. I had the wind knocked out 664 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 5: of me, and I still showed up to the exact 665 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 5: same health center ready to take care of patients, and 666 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 5: I still was able to provide services luckily this Tuesday. 667 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 5: We weren't able to provide services in the days immediately 668 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 5: after the DB's decision. But this feels infinitely worse because 669 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 5: in the days after the DABS decision, there was just 670 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 5: a sense that we just needed to clear this up, 671 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 5: that no one would expect that any sixty four men 672 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 5: would be enacted. But here they are, for justices in 673 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 5: today's society telling us that we cannot provide abortions. And 674 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 5: so this feels gut wrenching in a different way. 675 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: Like if you look at the Arizona State House, Democrats 676 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: are still trying despite the fact that politically going back 677 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: to an eighteen sixties law will probably help Democrats in 678 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: the state, which is if you think about it like Trump. 679 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: Remember Trump didn't want to pass this immigration bill because 680 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: he wanted to be able to run an immigration But 681 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: Democrats in the state House are trying still to get 682 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: this bill repealed and Republicans won't let them. 683 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 5: I'll say two things. The first is that I still 684 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 5: have hope right because I have to have hope right, 685 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 5: like hopelessness is a luxury that we do not have 686 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 5: when we have a need that is this acute to 687 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 5: take care of our patients. And the second part is 688 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 5: that this is not about politics, Like, this is real 689 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 5: people's lives, and it is just disgusting to me to 690 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 5: see the way politicians are now jocking and jostling for 691 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 5: the sole goal of using this as a means to 692 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 5: get themselves a different position within some election. Like there 693 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 5: are real women who I am taking care of in 694 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 5: my clinic as early as yesterday who are telling me 695 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 5: that they cannot be pregnant, and these lawmakers down at 696 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 5: the Capitol with this ridiculous chaotic are these stunts that 697 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 5: they're playing because so literally they are jeopardizing the lives 698 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 5: of their constituents. And how this disconnect could still exist 699 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 5: is truly baffling to me. You know, I've sat with 700 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 5: thousands of women and pregnant people as they have described 701 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 5: to me why they need abortion. We never ask patients 702 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 5: to justify their abortions, although the state does require that 703 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 5: we ask them why they're seeking their abortions. And so 704 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 5: I have been privileged to understand the real need for abortion. 705 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 5: And we know that these bands don't decrease the number 706 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 5: of abortions to create who gets the abortions right, people 707 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 5: who have means, people who are privileged will still be 708 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 5: able to travel out of state and secure their abortions. 709 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 5: And black and brown communities, rural communities, LGBTQ plus folks, 710 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 5: These are the people who are already marginalized in our 711 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 5: health care society. These are the folks that are at 712 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 5: higher risk oritual mortality because of systemic racism that exists 713 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 5: in our healthcare system. These are the people who are 714 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 5: going to be left behind. That's only shameful, Like, there's 715 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 5: no other way to describe that. 716 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: I've been reading reports out of Louisiana seeing this another 717 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: red states Texas too. It changes the way people are 718 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: obgyns in states with bands, right, Can you talk about that? 719 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 5: Yeah? That is absolute true. We saw this play out 720 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 5: in the days after the DABS decision, when our Attorney 721 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 5: General was saying one thing, lawyers were saying something else, 722 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 5: the governor was saying something else. We saw the real 723 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 5: life consequences of that. I'm trained as an obstriction gynocologist, 724 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 5: work delivering baby for ten years, and I had a 725 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 5: friend and colleague who told me that she had a 726 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 5: patient who came in presented to labor and delivery, who 727 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 5: was having what we call like a precipitous delivery of 728 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 5: a pre term and pre viable fetus. Right, so this 729 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 5: was a delivery that was inevitable, it was could not 730 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 5: be stopped, and the fetus was not to survive. And 731 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 5: the content was, you know, in agony in her labor 732 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 5: and her contractions. And the standard of care is that 733 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 5: in that circumstance you expedite the delivery so that the 734 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 5: pregnant person is not agonizing in labor. And the way 735 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 5: you do that is you break the bag of water. 736 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 5: It's a story, a simple procedure and when that happens, 737 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 5: generally the fetus will deliver shortly thereafter. And provider, who 738 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 5: is a trusted colleague who she basically felt like she 739 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 5: could not do this simple procedure to help this person 740 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 5: get out of agony because her actions could have been 741 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 5: construed as breaking the law and participating in an abortion. 742 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 5: And I mean that's like one example. You know, I've 743 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 5: worked in hospital systems where patients come in with their 744 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 5: bag of water already ruptured and they're pre viable. This 745 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 5: fetus is not going to survive, and we're not allowed 746 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 5: to induce her abortion until either the fetus doesn't have 747 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 5: a heartbeat and or the mom is so sick that 748 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 5: then there's justification. And let me tell you that usually 749 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 5: the justification is only when the fetus doesn't have a 750 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 5: heartbeat anymore, because who's going to determine how sick that 751 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 5: pregnant woman has to be before I can induce her abortion. 752 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 5: And so absolutely we see this. We see this in 753 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 5: the way patients are cared for in our emergency department. 754 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 5: They when they're presenting with miscarriage, when they're present with abortions, 755 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 5: but have you know the rear few that have complications. 756 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 5: We see the way they're treated, and we just see 757 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 5: a hesitancy to provide these patients with dignified care. 758 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: It's a problem that we saw this coming and it 759 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 1: really is like the same problem that it's why they 760 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: decided row in the first place, right, was because the 761 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: idea that doctors would need to be dictated by Republican 762 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: politicians is so insane. It seems to me also that 763 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: there's like anxiety about providing like a DNC for a miscarriage. 764 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: I mean, can you talk a little bit about anything 765 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: else you're seeing on this front? Yeah? 766 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 5: I think the point that you're making care is that 767 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 5: the ripple effect of this singular decision, like it's going 768 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 5: to impact individual lives, it's going to impact the people 769 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 5: who are providing this care now, right, Like, how are 770 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 5: we going to keep our health care, our healthcare clinics 771 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 5: open so that when the intereritahip passes and we can 772 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 5: again have permission to not be thrown into jail for 773 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 5: providing abortion care, that we're still in place, ready to go. 774 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 5: But also so many additional ripples, like just the societal 775 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 5: and the systemic and the cultural implications. What's going to 776 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 5: happen to these people? And also one of the points 777 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 5: that I like to talk about is the fact that 778 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 5: if we don't provide abortions in this state, how are 779 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 5: we going to train future doctors to know how to 780 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 5: safely empty a uterus for whatever reason, for metscarriage management, 781 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 5: for a DNC, for an elective abortion for the life 782 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 5: of the mother. There will be no one here who 783 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 5: knows how to do that because the residents that are 784 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 5: training right now in family medicine and obstetrics and gynecology, 785 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 5: although they have requirements to have abortion training, if there's 786 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 5: not the clinical practice on the ground, they will not 787 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 5: have the skill set necessary to save people's lives. And also, 788 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 5: who would come train here. I would never go train 789 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 5: at a program where I couldn't get the full set 790 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 5: of skills that I needed to be able to compet 791 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 5: take care of my patients holistically and throughout all components 792 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 5: of their reproductive life. This is essential health care and 793 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 5: the fact that abortion has been carved out as something 794 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 5: unique and different is mind boggling to me. One out 795 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 5: of every four people of reproductive potential will have an 796 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 5: abortion at some point in their lives. This is incredibly common. 797 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 5: This is basic medicine. And the fact that politicians and 798 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 5: ideology have decided that they're going to interfere and try 799 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 5: and dictate how we control our lives and how we 800 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 5: practice medicine. You know, I went to school for a 801 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,399 Speaker 5: lot of years so that I can safely take care 802 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 5: of my patients. And the fact that someone who has 803 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 5: no basis of understanding of any of this is dictating 804 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,359 Speaker 5: what I can do. Where have we gone wrong? I 805 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 5: know how we got here, and still every day I 806 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 5: say how did we get here? Because when I started 807 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 5: my career and dedicated my life to taking care of 808 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 5: pregnant people, and then my career evolved into providing solely 809 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 5: abortion service, I never, in my heart of hearts, because 810 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 5: I think I have an understanding, right, I have listened 811 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 5: to my patients, and I have an understanding of why 812 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 5: abortion exists and why it's essential and why it will 813 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 5: always be essential regardless of what these politicians do. And 814 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 5: in my heart hearts, I could never go down that 815 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 5: road because I know the ill that it's going to 816 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 5: cause so nuts. 817 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: One of the things in Texas you see these abortion deserts, 818 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: and more broadly you see oh b guyn deserts. Right, 819 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: I mean there must be real time information about this happening. 820 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that? 821 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean so one of the things that you know, 822 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 5: there's so much discussion now like well, how long are 823 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 5: you going to be able to provide abortion and how 824 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 5: many more days? And like the point is is, we 825 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 5: weren't even meeting the need before we had a total 826 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 5: abortion band, and if we got to provide for another 827 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 5: sixty days and other one hundred days, it's never enough. 828 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 5: You know, we had some choice, but we didn't actually 829 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 5: have real access, right And that's because we don't have 830 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 5: enough providers. My nurse that helps me that provided abortion 831 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 5: services yesterday, provided sedation for abortion services yesterday. She drives 832 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 5: an hour and a half each way. We are in Phoenix, 833 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 5: one of the largest metropolitan cities in the country. And 834 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 5: the nurses that I find who are so incredibly good 835 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,479 Speaker 5: at their jobs and so compassionate and so passionate about 836 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,919 Speaker 5: this work that they're willing to drive three hours away 837 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 5: from their family. You know, this is not time that 838 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,800 Speaker 5: they're compensated. They drive three hours round trip to provide 839 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 5: abortion services. And so it's absolutely true, and it's only 840 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 5: going to get worse. Like I was talking about, those 841 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 5: residents are not going to come train at the programs 842 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 5: in Arizona, and then if they're not training at the 843 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 5: programs in Arizona, they're not going to stay in Arizona. 844 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 5: So where are the doctor's going to be who's going 845 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 5: to be taking care of people. I want to tell 846 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 5: you about a couple of patients that I've been thinking about. So, 847 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 5: the state of Arizona requires that we ask patients why 848 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,280 Speaker 5: they're seeking an abortion, and it's part of the whole 849 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 5: host of information that I have to report to the 850 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 5: state after e abortion is performed, including like really personal 851 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 5: information about patients about how many times they've been pregnant 852 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 5: and what the outcomes of those pregnancies were, and you know, 853 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 5: what their ethnicity is, and what their marital status is, 854 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 5: and all this information that the state is compiling for 855 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 5: what purposes We don't know. But one of the questions 856 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 5: we have to report why they're having their abortion. And 857 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 5: I never ever ask a patient to justify their abortion 858 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 5: abortion as elective, but patients so often, I think, for one, 859 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 5: because we have to pose this question field that they 860 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 5: need to justify their abortion. And having sat through you know, 861 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 5: I provide at least twenty five of these physician abortion 862 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 5: counting sessions before a patient has to wait than the 863 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 5: twenty four hours before they can have their abortion per clinic, 864 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 5: and so I hear these stories twenty five times a day. 865 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 5: And you know, I had a patient last week who 866 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 5: told me that she walked on foot from Venezuela. She 867 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 5: was reaped multiple times along the way. She realized as 868 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,800 Speaker 5: she was approaching the United States that she was pregnant, 869 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 5: and she was literally this person was trying to make 870 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 5: ends meet here in this country by cooking food out 871 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 5: of a one room bedroom, impregnated as a result of 872 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,320 Speaker 5: her rape. Like, who's going to take care of that person? 873 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 5: Why on earth are we sentencing that woman to have 874 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 5: a forced pregnancy that was a result of assault as 875 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 5: she walked on foot across literally all of Central America. 876 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 5: I think I want to express to you, like, the 877 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 5: most common reason that people tell me they're having an 878 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 5: abortion is because they're already moms, and they have families 879 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 5: that they love and that they're caring. 880 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: For, and they can barely afford. 881 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 5: I had one patient tell me that she was so 882 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 5: sick with nausea and vombing of pregnancy, she wasn't able 883 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 5: to work, and she was so close to losing her apartment, 884 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 5: and if she didn't have her abortion, she missed more work, 885 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 5: she would be homeless with her family, with her children 886 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 5: that she loves. How are we sentencing women and pregnant 887 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 5: people to this fate when we know we know from 888 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 5: the data from the Dovs decision what happens to them. 889 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 5: We know that women and pregnant people in states where 890 00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 5: abortion is banned are more than three times as likely 891 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 5: to die during pregnancy, childbirth, and after delivery. We know 892 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,319 Speaker 5: that they're more likely to be economically unstable, that they're 893 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 5: more likely to stay with abusive partners, that they're more 894 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 5: likely to be unemployed. How can we have this information 895 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 5: and acknowledge it and still be an abortion What is 896 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 5: wrong with people? Shame on them? Like, what is wrong 897 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 5: with them? 898 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: My mom, Erica Jong was a feminist author in the 899 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,879 Speaker 1: seventies and and my whole life. You know, they were 900 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: just so pleased that they had made it so that 901 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,280 Speaker 1: women weren't going to die back alley abortions. It's not 902 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: just these abortions, it's the pills. It's you know, you 903 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: see Republicans so much chatter about the dangers of birth 904 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: control pills. I mean, are you shocked as a doctor 905 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: the whole The Supreme Court is hearing a case on methapristone, 906 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: which is trying to undo the FDA approval of a 907 00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: drug that's been on the market for twenty years. I mean, 908 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: are you shocked at sort of the on science of 909 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 1: this or are you not that surprised? And can you 910 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: just talk about that for a MENA? 911 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think we saw this when Trump 912 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 5: came into office, right, we saw that fact is no 913 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 5: longer fact and science allegedly isn't science. And we saw it. 914 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 5: We saw a movement I think in our society and 915 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,960 Speaker 5: our culture that could get behind that idea, right that 916 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 5: whatever someone says can be fact, despite if it's if 917 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 5: it's true or not, that the truth is not truth. 918 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 5: I think we're living in this world now. It seems 919 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 5: to be just irrational. It seems to be not I 920 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 5: can't understand it, I really can't. But I think that 921 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,840 Speaker 5: we saw this starting when we had, you know, a 922 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 5: president who told lies and a president who that it 923 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 5: was okay to not believe doctors and to not trust science. 924 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 5: And you know, our society is founded on these principles 925 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 5: of medicine, and the practice of medicine prides itself on 926 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 5: doing what we know based on scientific, rigorous research. There 927 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 5: are gold standard studies that have to be performed and 928 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,400 Speaker 5: they have to be peer reviewed, and they have to 929 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,879 Speaker 5: be published, and they have to be repeated. We as 930 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 5: physicians have OSTs not harm our patients, and so we 931 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 5: follow the evidence so closely to ensure that we're doing 932 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 5: what's right for our patients. And when someone opened a 933 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 5: different narrative, it tore open this rip in our society 934 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 5: that has allowed us to get to this point where 935 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 5: no matter what people with education and training and expertise 936 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 5: are saying, if there's a louder, more boisterous voice that 937 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 5: people want to listen to, we're being drowned out. 938 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: Thank you, doctor Gibson, Yeah, thank you. 939 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:56,240 Speaker 2: No, hard Rick Wilson, Yes, small, drunk fast. 940 00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: What is your moment of factory? 941 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 2: My moment of fuckery is Mike Johnson going down to 942 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 2: mar A Lago to Kevin McCarthy himself in front of 943 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,879 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. What we have seen is these guys are 944 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,320 Speaker 2: going to go down to Trump when they're in trouble. 945 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,280 Speaker 2: And McCarthy knew he was in trouble right after January 946 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 2: sixth because he had not properly respected Donald Trump's needs, desires, 947 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,440 Speaker 2: and wishes, and he went down there to kiss his ass. 948 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 2: But that was a poison pill Once you go down there, 949 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 2: you kick off the timer. For everything Trump touches dies, 950 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,880 Speaker 2: and Mike Johnson has been living on a razor's edge. 951 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 2: He's not really gained anything from going down there. He's 952 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 2: not really gained anything, But he went down there to 953 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 2: do this unbelievably bogus liathon about non citizen voting. It's 954 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:52,279 Speaker 2: already illegal in all fifty states and the territories. It's 955 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,320 Speaker 2: already illegal in state law in every state. It doesn't 956 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 2: happen at any detectable number, including people like Cato Institute 957 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,759 Speaker 2: said Nope, non citizens aren't voting. But you know who 958 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 2: is voting illegally. You know, if you want some voter fraud, 959 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 2: go down to the villages in Florida, go down to 960 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 2: Hyaliah in Miami. I can give you lists of places 961 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,520 Speaker 2: all over America in red states where there is voter 962 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,879 Speaker 2: fraud in detectable numbers. But that was what they went 963 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,279 Speaker 2: down there to pretend was the urgent national crisis of 964 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,280 Speaker 2: our time, and it was a moment of pure pathetic fuckery. 965 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,160 Speaker 2: I will say this, it's hard to respect you, Mike Johnson, 966 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,920 Speaker 2: to begin with. It's even harder when you see somebody 967 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,960 Speaker 2: as absurd as Mike Johnson trying to kiss ass to 968 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 2: Donald Trump to preserve a job that he's already a 969 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 2: dead man walking. 970 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. Basically, Mike Johnson 971 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 1: needs Marjorie Taylor Green to stop saying that she's going 972 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: to raise a motion to vacate and kick him out 973 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: of his job. So we went down there in the 974 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,719 Speaker 1: hopes of Trump will tell Marjorie Taylor Green what to do, 975 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 1: which means that Marjorie Taylor Green is basically the de 976 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:01,879 Speaker 1: facto speaker of the House. 977 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 2: Well, oh she is. I mean, that's no question. 978 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: And I'm going to use that as my moment of 979 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,919 Speaker 1: prockery too. And I'm just going to add that Kevin 980 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: McCarthy had a chance on January seventeenth, had he not 981 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: gone down tomorrow a lago. I mean, there were like 982 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 1: a lot of things happened that January, But had the 983 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: Republicans voted to convict or Kevin McCarthy not gone down 984 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 1: there and the Republicans had left him alone, today the 985 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,600 Speaker 1: Republicans would be running Nicki Haley, and Nicki Haley, I 986 00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: don't agree with everything she says, but she would not 987 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 1: be trying to overthrow democracy. It would be much harder 988 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 1: for Biden to run against Nicki Haley, and you know, 989 00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: our democracy would be in a much safer place. 990 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 2: She would have reset a lot of the perceptions of 991 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,680 Speaker 2: the Republican Party among elite media, they'd say, Okay, Trump's 992 00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:51,520 Speaker 2: in the past, it's gone. Now trump Ism would still 993 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,879 Speaker 2: be there. It would be the easiest lift for them 994 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,400 Speaker 2: in the world to jump to that. 995 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,239 Speaker 1: That's right. And you'll notice Nicki Haley still has an 996 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: endorsed Donald and for that that is both of our 997 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:03,840 Speaker 1: moment of fuckerries. 998 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,640 Speaker 2: It is indeed, it is. 999 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:10,240 Speaker 1: Indeed, that's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune 1000 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,160 Speaker 1: in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best 1001 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,759 Speaker 1: minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If 1002 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,319 Speaker 1: you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a 1003 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,240 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.