1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Podcast Playground. Welcome to taking a walk, an excursion to converse, 2 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: connect and catch up at a cool location with some 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: of the most interesting people you can find. Here's plus night. Well, 4 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: it's so good to see the dynamic duo here on 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: the Freedom Trail, Jeff Tuff and Steven Goldback. Thanks for 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: taking a walk, Thanks for having us busy. This is fun. 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: So how do you, guys in your creative process use 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: walks to kind of release you if you're jammed on something. 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: How does that work for you guys? Well, I will 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: say this is Jeff here. I've spent quite a bit 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: of my life walking, usually in the woods, and it's 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: something that I really enjoyed doing with my family. But 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, everything that Steve and I end up writing 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: about come from personal experiences with our clients and working 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: in the demand that we do, which is strategy consulting 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: that takes some degree of reflection and thinking about some 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: of the people that we work with day in, day out, 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: and there's no better way to do that than getting 19 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: out for a walk. And for what it's worth, during 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: the pandemic, this has become a really great and safe 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: way to connect with people. And what I found as 22 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: I've been getting more back into the world and the 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: world of work, is that I've been using walks as 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: a way to focus conversations. People aren't distracted by technology 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: and it's a great way to just connect and share ideas. 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: So walking and talking is a great new but old 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: meeting pedagogy. So what are some of the favorite places 28 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: for you guys to take a walk. Well, one of 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: the things that I've been really blessed with is spending 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of time on the cape and I can't 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: describe how beautiful it is in the fall to just 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: take a walk and either put on a or talk 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: to my wife and just literally around the block where 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: we live. Is just looking at the trees and getting 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: away from it. Also, that's one of my favorite places. 36 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: And then Central Park in New York, which is where 37 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: I spent some time too, not a bad spot. Yeah, 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: so I would have a hard time nailing it down 39 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: my wife and I as we actually write about it 40 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: and provoked we took a wander around the Earth at 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: one point. It took about a year, and almost everywhere 42 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: we went we ended up going on substantial walks, and 43 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: without going through the litany of those I will say 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: that probably if I had to claim one, it would 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: be Mountain Moose Lock up near Hannover, New Hampshire, which 46 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: is where I spent some time at school, and it's 47 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: just a beautiful, beautiful trail that takes you up to 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: the top of a mountain with an amazing view. So 49 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: the first book called Detonate, a second book called Provoke, 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: got a couple titles for the third book to run value. 51 00:02:53,080 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: What do you think how about prod instigate We actually 52 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: considered instigate for this one. Or if you go into 53 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: thinking two words might be okay, I'm thinking maybe I 54 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: poke might be appropriate. What do you think? Well, So, 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: it's interesting that we have had lots of questions in 56 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: commentary about the titles of our books because one of 57 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: the reactions people have is they sound inherently negative, which 58 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: I think is surprising to both of us because they 59 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: were actually intended to be inherently positive. And I think 60 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: it's all in the way that you frame what it 61 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: means to detonate things or to provoke things. And hopefully, 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: as your listeners will discover if they do decide to 63 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: pick up our books, they'll find that we actually have 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: a very positive outlook behind the actions you can take 65 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: on both of those verbs. Yeah, it's actually important to 66 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: note when it comes to provoke, we don't mean be 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: a you know what hole. That's not the that's not 68 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: the idea of provoke, And I think people think that's 69 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: what we mean. We think we think that's what leaders 70 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: need to do, they need to pound tables and yell 71 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: at people to do different things. But actually, what we're 72 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: finding in recently is that when you do those things, 73 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: you actually don't get the behavior change that you are 74 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: looking to achieve. You actually get the opposite. You get 75 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: people to be in transigent in their positions. And increasingly 76 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: we think nudging and using other techniques is a better 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: way to provoke. Is about the outcome, not about the technique. 78 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: So what's going on in the boardrooms today across America? 79 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: I mean, do you perceive there's a lot of confusion, 80 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: There's people just trying to get through a day, a quarter. 81 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: I mean, what's really going on from a global perspective, 82 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: from your guys perspective. Well, so, first of all, I'd 83 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: say it's probably hard to generalize on everything that's going 84 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: on in all boardrooms, but I wouldn't characterize it necessarily 85 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: as confusion. There's obviously a lot in flux. There's a 86 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: lot to be concerned about and a lot to manage, 87 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: but I would say probably no more so than at 88 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: other phases in business history. I would say, though, the 89 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: thing that we are most concerned about is there's too 90 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: much conviction as opposed to confusion confusion, And what I 91 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: mean by that is there's too much conviction that we 92 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: can continue to use data as the primary means to 93 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: make decisions, and data is inherently retrospective. Sometimes it's okay 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: to use data and analysis to make decisions, but increasingly 95 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: we're finding that the only way to deal with an 96 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: increasing level of uncertainty in the world, which is the 97 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: condition that we're living in, is not to rely on 98 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: traditional data and analytical methods, but instead to rely on 99 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: real time feedback from your markets and from your customers, 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: which is what we're trying to encourage people to go 101 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: and provoke when they take action in the market. Yeah, 102 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: and buzz. The thing I'd add to that is that 103 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: the challenge I think that you know, executive teams and 104 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: boards of directors have is that as they compare the 105 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: concept of doing something different than what they've done in 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: the past to what they've always done. Doing something different 107 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: feels risky, right, It feels like, oh, I don't know 108 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: exactly what we're going to do. We're not sure exactly 109 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: how everything's going to hold together and work. But if 110 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: you kind of ask yourself, well, what's riskier doing the 111 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: same thing we've always done in the phase of unprecedented 112 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: change or trying something new? In reality, trying something new 113 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: is less risky. But the problem is it feels it 114 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: feels riskier, and the status quo has the comfort of 115 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: feeling like, well, at least we know what we're doing, 116 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: even though it's incredibly risky. And so what we think 117 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: leaders need to do is flip that orthodoxy where they 118 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: need to make it clear that doing nothing is really 119 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: risky and trying something new, well, we might get it, 120 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: we might get it not perfect the first time, but 121 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: it's a lot less risky than doing nothing. So, when 122 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: you think of the media business and the media sector 123 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: and the challenges that each segment of the media sector 124 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: is facing, what elements of provoked should leaders of those 125 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: businesses consider in their actions. Yeah, I'll start with the 126 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: rate business because it's something that I've thought a little 127 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: bit about over the history. I had the pleasure of 128 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: working a long time ago with one of the radio pioneers, 129 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: Jeff Smullyan, and I so he taught me a lot 130 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: about just the history of radio. So I'm grateful for 131 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: that relationship. One of the things that I think about 132 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: the radio business, if you just kind of start with 133 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: the orthodoxy's at it has, radio was by definition of technology, right, 134 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: it was a means to distribute content to listeners, right. 135 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: And we funded that business through advertising historically, and the 136 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: whole definition of the radio business was around to some extent, 137 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: the mechanism through which we deliver the content. Now that 138 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: there are many mechanisms to deliver content, the businesses that 139 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: have been historically radio businesses need to rethink what's their 140 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: role in that ecosystem. It's not the only way to 141 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: deliver content. There are other more engaging, more engaging media 142 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: because they're simply audio and visual and experiential. And so 143 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: radio needs to think about what it is that what 144 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: it's differentiation is relative to just experiencing you know, a 145 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: regular podcast, you know, in another through another mechanism. So 146 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: radio needs to reinvent itself in a much more customer 147 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: centric way than a product centric way, which is I 148 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: think where its history comes from, and it's very hard 149 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: to reinvent your history. And I would add to that 150 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: and actually link it back to the point I was 151 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: making before about analytical methods and using data to make decisions. 152 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: And I don't claim to know nearly as much about 153 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: the media space as Steve does, but my interpretation of 154 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: what has historically gone on in media generally, regardless of 155 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: the of the medium and we're talking about, is that 156 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of careful effort put into essentially 157 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: testing with customers what they would like to hear or see, 158 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of forethought that goes into considering 159 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: some content before you deliver it up, a lot of 160 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: borak around segmentation and understanding which parts of the market 161 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: you're serving, and increasingly we're finding that in all businesses, 162 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: customers actually can't tell you what they're looking for. And 163 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: the old methods of testing anything that you're serving up 164 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: to the market, whether you're selling a pencil or something 165 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: in the media channels, is that you can't go and 166 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: ask people do they want something? You have to show 167 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: them something, You have to actually give them some sort 168 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: of stimulus and see how they react. So increasingly, I 169 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: would say, just like any company and any business, going 170 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: and developing small experiments and small tests of new content 171 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: as a way to provoke reaction from the market and 172 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: try to get ahead of what competitive media might be 173 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: is the only way to actually stay relevant. I have 174 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: to tell you when you guys first talk to me 175 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: about the book forthcoming, and specifically you've brought up the 176 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: term about a wind down business. Yeah, I had many 177 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: sleepless nights thinking about that term. And I'm not exaggerating 178 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: because it is such a stark term and an honest 179 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: term about where businesses stand. So when you think of 180 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: that part of the book that you talk about, you know, 181 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: wind down businesses describe really what the options are for 182 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: businesses that are in that mode. Well, so, a wind 183 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: down business, let's just define it. It's a business that 184 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: has a finite life to it in its current form. 185 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: And so if you think about the let's take let's 186 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: take another media, if you think about just the print 187 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: component of the newspaper business, there is clear evidence that 188 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: younger readers are preferring to consume more and more and 189 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: nearly all of their content in a digital form, and 190 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: so by definition, the number of customers that would prefer 191 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: to you know, and Jeff is one of them, that 192 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: would prefer to consume their media in a print form 193 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: is dwindling down. Now. It's a it's a slow business. 194 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,239 Speaker 1: And many of those print companies have been reinventing themselves 195 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: as hybrid as hybrid businesses. They're they're publishing their content 196 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: in all kinds of different places and many have found 197 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: success by evolving it the ones. But if you chose 198 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: to say I'm just going to stay a print business, 199 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: you would be effectively a wind down business because there 200 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: are going to be less and less customers for that 201 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: particular business. You could think about lots of other businesses 202 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: that are clearly in that mode. Maybe, you know, the 203 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: tobacco business would be a good example, a good example 204 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: of one, and there are probably other businesses that are. 205 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: You know, I think if you listen to Indra Nui 206 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: at Pepsi, she would say, look, there's a finite life 207 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: to sugar beverages, you know, and and that, and so 208 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: those are all examples of how, you know, there's a 209 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: less and less robust customer segment for their offer, and 210 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: that means as a business, you're faced with a choice. 211 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: You can either run that business for cash, which is 212 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: a perfectly acceptable choice that is a good strategy, or 213 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: you can say I can invest in building new capabilities 214 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: to reinvent what I've got, leveraging perhaps some things that 215 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: I've created. So that's what we mean by a wind 216 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: down business. And it's probably important to understand the context 217 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: that in which we talk about wind down businesses, because, 218 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 1: as I think you know Buzz, our core premise and 219 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: provoke is that while we live in an uncertain world 220 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: and we find uncertainties all around us all the time, 221 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: uncertainties do resolve, they don't stay uncertain forever. And some 222 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: uncertainties just go away. So we've talked recently about about 223 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: the Y two K scare, back when we flipped from 224 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and everyone was concerned 225 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: that our computers couldn't possibly hand it, handle it, and 226 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: society would completely implode. And it turns out that didn't happen, 227 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: and we lived through Y two K, and that uncertainty 228 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: just kind of went away. But other uncertainties do become reality, 229 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: They do actually turn into something real and when they 230 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: turn into something real, they go from being a question 231 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: of if to being a question of when they're going 232 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: to happen. We may not know everything about them, we 233 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: may not know the landing place or the rate of change, 234 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: but they go from being an if to a when. 235 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: And so what Steve and I talk about in Provoke 236 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: is that when those uncertainties resolve from being a question 237 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: of if to a question of when, they go through 238 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: something called a phase change. Our core premise in Provoke 239 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: is that the best leaders today position themselves to be 240 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: able to see that phase change earlier than others and 241 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: then act with purpose in the right way as the 242 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: phase change unfolds. Here we've got someone joining us in 243 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: the freedom trail, singing about freedom. Sometimes if you wait 244 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: too long in the phase change to act, then you 245 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: have no choice but to wind down and to essentially 246 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: return your money to you your shareholders. But there are 247 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: more positive ways of winding down, like Steve just talked about, 248 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: and you know where we are in. Although it's not 249 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: winding down, it's reinvent It's a reinvention, yeah, exactly, winding 250 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: down the old business model as opposed to winding down 251 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: the entire company company and returning money to shareholders. Now 252 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: where we are in the radio business and in various 253 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: aspects of media, I think is a great question, and 254 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: that may be something buzz that that you and your 255 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: colleagues can comment on. Well, I think you know I 256 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: would leave us on this note and ask you this question, So, 257 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: what one piece of advice would you each give to 258 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: leaders to try to get their internal teams to know 259 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: how to provoke. Well, I would say, start with a 260 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: recognition of the if to when, and make that explicit. 261 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: So if I were doing this for radio, I would say, 262 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: it's not a matter it's well beyond a matter of 263 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: if to now a matter of when where. There are 264 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: going to be lots of other forms of distributing content 265 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: to consumers that are more compelling and more convenient than 266 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: traditional than traditional radio. So let's put the choice on 267 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: the table. Either, what are the different ways we can 268 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: leverage the assets that we have, the spectrum that we have, 269 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: the talent that we have within our organizations in order 270 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: to create value for our listeners and ultimately perhaps monetize 271 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: that through advertising or other means. Or are we content 272 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: that you know, maybe a good strategy choice for us 273 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: is just look, there's gonna be there's gonna be still 274 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: places for our business model, whether it's drive time or 275 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: or other places where we're still relevant, and we're gonna 276 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: just focus on those and understand that our market is 277 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: gonna shrink, but we're okay with that. We're just gonna 278 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: make sure that we are as cost as efficient as 279 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: we can be. I've always been curious why there appears 280 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: to be this orthodoxy in the radio business that we 281 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: are audio only companies. I know some companies do video, 282 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: but what they do video of is some dude in 283 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: a studio with headphones on, and that's like, that's like 284 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: the We get to watch the audio and it's not 285 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: exactly compelling. And so as the ad as other technologies 286 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: have become easy to incorporate, you know, more compelling experiences 287 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: for your listeners. I'm just curious, why has why have 288 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: radio organizations I won't say radio, but why have radio 289 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: organizations been slow to adopt and constrain themselves to just 290 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: the media that you grew up with. I just there's 291 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: no reason that's there's there's no logic that says I 292 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: have to be audio only. It's just you're effectively choosing 293 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: to do that because you you know, your implicit biases 294 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: are putting you in this box. So I would just 295 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: say like, hey, we've got great content, we've got great 296 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: things to do. What can we do that's more compelling 297 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: than listening than just listening? So it would be an 298 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: interesting challenge to say, like, what would be a minimal 299 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: viable test in order to do that. So I think 300 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: it comes down to where resource allocation comes. Where that's 301 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: the debate that goes on in the business. We don't 302 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: have enough what's devoted to our core? I think you've 303 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: said this probably before as well. It's people who are 304 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: romanced by what the past all means and they're kind 305 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: of stuck in terms of what that means about how 306 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: they communicate and engage with an audience. But that's a 307 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: great point, Well, it goes back to your thing, But 308 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: you're not making explicit If we devote the resources to 309 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: the core, we are effectively choosing to be a wind 310 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: down company, right because we know that the customer preferences 311 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: on that are going to be less and less over 312 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: time compared to the customer preferences for something more compelling. 313 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: Because now you're competing with peoples for people's time and attention, 314 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 1: and that is just going to be inherently. There are 315 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: going to be few or fewer pockets of people's time 316 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: where that's going to be the preferred mode. And so 317 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: by making that explicit, maybe you get to different choices 318 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: about the urgency of taking some of those core resources 319 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: and deploying them into a test something else. And I 320 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: would say it's also just listening to the two of 321 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: you talk about this, it's important to perhaps reconsider what 322 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: it means to have a resource base and to have 323 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: scarce resources, because yes, there are captive resources that any 324 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: one of the organizations that operate in radio today have, 325 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: and they need to think about their budgets carefully. But 326 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: if you open up the proverbial walls of the organization 327 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: to others and actually collaborate with others, you can access 328 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: a lot of other resources and reframe the way you 329 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: think about resource allocation. So if for example, radio thinks 330 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: of itself as the core audio content for any sort 331 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: of media that exists in the world, and I don't, 332 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: that may be the way you can see of it 333 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: now today. It may not be quite that wide open, 334 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: but you have an opportunity then to inject audio, to 335 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: inject the audio content into any sort of format that 336 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: we're going to be able to live with in the future, 337 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: not just video, but all the other technologies that are 338 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: coming online, whether we're talking about artificial reality, virtual reality, 339 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: what have you. There's gonna be a lot of need 340 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: for content, and better to supply the audio than the 341 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: business that invented audio. So the thing the advice is 342 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: just be explicit about the bet you're making. I think, 343 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: don't lull yourself to sleep by thinking that, Wow, we're 344 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: still as relevant as we were in the nineteen seventies 345 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties, and I think people want to 346 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: convince themselves of that because they say, well, we haven't changed, 347 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: but the world around us has. So make that explicit 348 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: would be my advice, and mine would be And I'm 349 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: assuming that there's a lot of worry in the radio 350 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: business these days, a lot of concern. My advice, easy 351 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: to say, hard to do, is stop worrying and start 352 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: doing so. There's a very important premise in both the 353 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: books that Steve and I write about called a minimally 354 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: viable move, and it's based on the idea that every 355 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: management decision, everything you do, whether it's a talent choice 356 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: or a market choice or what have you can be 357 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: boiled down to a really small, testable hypothesis and something 358 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: that can go and be acted on. The more we 359 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: can start taking action in those small increments and just 360 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: trying a bunch of stuff, being random about it, but 361 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: really taking everything that we intend to do and boiling 362 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: it down to a really small step forward and trying things, 363 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: not only will we increase the cycle time of understanding 364 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: the way the future is unfolding, but we will actually 365 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: discover interesting new paths along the way. So our core 366 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: called action in Provoke, and a lot of the discussions 367 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: we've been having with people is stop worrying and just 368 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: get out and do something that's awesome. I got to 369 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: tell you, one of the great things about taking a 370 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: walk is being able to be inspired, being able to 371 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: be jarred. You do all of that in a great way, 372 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: and I appreciate it, and I appreciate detonate, and I 373 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: appreciate Provoke. Thanks guys for taking a walk, Thanks for 374 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: having us. Taking a walk with Buzznight available on Spotify, iTunes, 375 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: and wherever podcasts are available.