WEBVTT - What to Know About Perry Maxwell (ft. Chris Clouser and Colton Craig) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:05.880 And when I find my. 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.920 Ball in a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.720 Frida egg, Frida egg, egg, Frida egg, bride. 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:40.240 Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the. 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:37.600 Hum all right, Hello and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.839 My name is Garrett Morrison. I'm here with Andy Johnson. 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.720 How are you, Andy, I'm doing wonderful. Yeah, yeah, in 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:47.560 spite of the snowstorms. 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.880 Snow and and uh, you know, lack of childcare. There's 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.880 two things that the modern u modern parent has to 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:56.240 deal with it this time of the year. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.840 Yeah, no, especially recently. All right, So why don't we 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.120 get right into it so you can get back to that. 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.959 We're talking today about Perry Maxwell, the golf course architect 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.160 who worked mostly in I don't know, would you call 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:12.920 it the Midwest, would you call it the South? I'm 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:14.240 not really sure what to call it. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.000 I think it's the Great Plains, right gat yeh. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:19.880 Texas is its own place, so you know, we we 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.120 can just refer to it as Texas, right they don't 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.600 you know when you think about it, they aren't the Southeast, 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:26.840 they aren't the South, they aren't the Southwest. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.600 They're just Texas. They aren't the Great Plains. 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.320 Texans will love to hear that too, because that that's 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:35.800 I think that's the belief in Texas as well. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:38.759 I'm playing. I'm playing to the audience here. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:43.120 Yeah, there you go, Texans. All right. So Perry Maxwell, 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.080 of course, is the is the architect behind Southern Hills, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:50.480 Prairie Dunes, Old Town Club, great architect. We've talked about 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.880 him before on the podcast, but today's episode goes a 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.680 little deeper into it. We talked to Chris Klauser, who's 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.280 a historian who has done a lot of work on 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.840 Perry Maxwell, including a book called The Midwest Associate. And 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.160 then we also talked to Colton Craig, who's an architect 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.920 based in Oklahoma who has studied Perry Maxwell a great 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.240 deal as well. But first we wanted to mention that 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:21.280 we have a new event opening for registration. This is 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.120 going to be the Banker at Dornick Hills and it 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:30.919 opens for registration at noon Eastern time on Monday, February seventh. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.280 One thing that we should note is that our events 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:39.400 page has been relocated to Golf Genius. This is going 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.520 to make a lot of things a lot easier and smoother. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.880 But in order to find this page, you can just 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.280 go to the Friday dot com and find on the 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.000 top banner the word events, and if you click on that, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.320 you'll be taken right to our Golf Genius page. On mobile, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.000 if you're on a cell phone, you can find it 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.720 by going to browse time topics on the Friday dot Com, 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.680 then events and all events, and it will take you 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.560 to the same place. And then we'll also put direct 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.360 links in the fridaygg newsletter on Friday February fourth and 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.280 Monday February seventh, So we're just making sure to get 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.400 people there in the first place. Just note everybody that 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.680 there's a new registration process, there's a new home for 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:25.200 this stuff. Once you're in the new events home, you'll 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.920 be able to see all of the information about the 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.960 Banker and about our other events when we post them. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:36.320 A registration button will appear when registration opens. And one 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.960 important note is that during registration, participants are required to 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:46.520 provide their full name, email information, billing information, shirt size, 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.400 gin number or handicap index, and so just make sure 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:51.400 that you have all of that. 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.960 Information important if you don't have a handicap index, if 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:00.200 you're part of the resistance of handicap system. 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.680 And you're included in this, in this community of very 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:04.640 brave people. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.200 I just haven't gotten around to signing up for one. 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.120 Nobody can handicap dox you. 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.240 The only well the only way reason and I would 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.800 have it is I needed it for tournaments, you know, yeah, right, 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.839 but uh, listen, you don't need a handicapp dos me. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:22.880 You just doxed me. 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:30.880 The uh but anyways, just put your estimate in there 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.960 and we'll we'll crutch it down and listen, don't be 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.080 a sandbagger. Well, well will boot you out if you 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.320 if you shoot way under your your alleged index and 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:41.320 you don't include your. 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:46.240 Index, everlasting shame is not worth it. Uh, just ask 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.120 about what happened at our soul Park event last year. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.800 And is this a handicapped podcast and not a prayer 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:54.240 Perry Maxwell podcast. 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.080 We have we've we've done. I mean, people who really 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.720 want the Perry Maxwell podcast. I'm going to put a 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.760 little time stamp in the show notes so that you 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:03.800 can just skip ahead to it. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:08.080 But Dornic Hills is important because it's Perry Maxwell's home course, 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.919 is first design, that's the banker. It's an ourd More, Oklahoma. 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.200 It's an hour and a half from Dallas Airport. I 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.200 flew down to Dallas, like you can fly down and 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.520 be up there in a jiffy. It's also an hour 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.280 and a half from Oklahoma City. If you can get 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.719 directed at Oklahoma City. I hear that's a really easy 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.480 airport and drive to navigate. And you know, we will 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.880 have golf available on Sunday as well as Tuesday also, 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.680 so you could make a couple day trip of it. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.599 On top of the thirty six holes you get with 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:39.360 the event. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.160 This should be a really cool, unique event at an 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.159 incredible golf course. Now, yes, so Dornic Hills is Perry 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.440 Maxwell's first golf course. He built it on his property. 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:52.960 We're going to go into greater depth about Dornic Hills 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.840 later in this podcast with Chris Klauser. But one thing 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.000 that people should know is that it has been freshly restored. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.880 So Tom Doak's team at Renaissance Golf Design was in 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.600 there over the past year year and a half restoring 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:13.400 the Perry Maxwell design there and basically this event offers 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:14.960 a first look at that. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.640 Yeah, the club's doing their opening day, opening, Grand Open, 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.640 reopening ceremonies the weekend before, so it is it's going 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:23.919 to be. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:25.040 It's wonderful. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.320 I went down in December and saw it and it's 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.280 a really cool property. It's got some really neat golf holes, 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.000 some great greens. But you know, the cliff hole the sixteenth, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.640 the par five is one of the most jaw dropping 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.960 holes that I've ever seen in my life. So that 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.400 is a that is a neat hole. It's a neat 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.800 golf course and should be a great event. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.120 YEP, special place. So the Banker at Dornick Hills. The 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.159 rest of this podcast isn't all about Dornick Hills. It 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.279 is really about Perry Maxwell, about his life and about 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:05.080 his courses. So I hope you enjoy it. So, Chris Klauser, 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:09.480 you wrote the book The Midwest Associate. You are I 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.320 think there's very little argument the foremost Perry Maxwell expert 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:18.400 in the world. So I wonder how you got interested 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:19.400 in Perry Maxwell. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.680 So I got interested with Perry Maxwell when I started 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.320 researching just the history of a golf course. I was 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.480 going to go see and found out that he was 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.640 the architect I was going to go up and see 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.600 Crystal Downs, so I was just curious and I found out, Oh, 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.000 it's Alister Mackenzie and Perry Maxwell. Okay, well I've heard 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.040 that name because i'd heard it associated with southern hills 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.880 and prairie dunes. And thought, well, let me see what 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.360 else he's done, and started researching him a little bit, 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:53.360 and then got in touch with his family, his daughter 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:58.800 and his granddaughter specifically, and after talking with them, I 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.320 don't know a Saturday afterdo for two or three hours, 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.800 they sent me a box full of all sorts of stuff, paraphernalia, 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:14.720 newspaper clippings, his family history type stuff, things from press, Maxwell, 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.640 Perry Son, just a lot of stuff that I was 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.760 started going through. I thought, okay, maybe I can, maybe 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.280 I can do a magazine article about this guy. I 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.920 didn't do a lot of writing back then, but a 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:32.360 little and started started thinking about, okay, magazine article. And 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.480 then the more and more I researched, more and more 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.320 I found, the more and more I wrote, and I 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.200 was turned into a book project. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.080 So it just kind of captured you. 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:47.079 Yeah, yeah, his story specifically I mean, after researching it 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.640 a little bit, I was like, well, nobody knows anything 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.679 about this guy really from a from an architectural standpoint, 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:58.280 because the people I talked to they were either convinced 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.560 that he only did like a handful of course, or 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:06.800 he was really just Mackenzie's associate and didn't really do 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.800 anything on his own, or just so I was like, Okay, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.720 well that's definitely a story I could tell. 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.120 Well, why don't we talk a little bit about Perry 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.560 Maxwell's early years? Where did he come from in the world. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:19.319 So he was. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:24.720 Born in Princeton, Kentucky, grew up there. After he graduated 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.280 from high school, he started trying to find some other 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:34.720 place to go because he suffered from consumption or tuberculosis 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:36.960 or whatever you want to call it. So he started 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.800 looking for places to go. He attended some college in Kentucky, 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.880 some in Florida, and kind of was an itinerant for 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:51.360 a few years. And then he found a place in Oklahoma, Ardmore. 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:57.880 Basically settled in Ardmore with his new wife there and 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.440 they bought this massive piece of property. It was an 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:05.320 old poor farm just on the north edge of Ardmore, 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.920 which is where Dorna kills sits today and he became 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:15.239 kind of a He was really involved with the community 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.560 in Ardmore. He became a cashier at a bank and 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.920 went through the whole corporate ladder essentially at this bank, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:29.000 and became a vice president. He was massively involved with 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.320 like the church. He was in several community organizations. He 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:38.440 basically did almost everything except it. Become mayor in Ardmore 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.680 at some point. So and then his wife passed away 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.480 and he decided, Okay, I need to do something else 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.000 because he had just retired from the banking industry and 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:55.599 he needed something to generate revenue. And this was pre depression. 0:10:55.720 --> 0:11:00.680 So based on a recommendation his wife actually in Maine 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.800 to him at one point, was to go into golf 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.640 and try to become a golf course architect. Up to then, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.679 he had been from an athletic standpoint. He was actually 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:15.120 a tennis champion in the state of Oklahoma, won several awards, 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.640 was actually ahead of the state Tennis association at one point. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.160 So his body started to show wear and tear from that, 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.360 and he got older essentially, and all those things that 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:32.600 come along with old age and middle age took their tolls. 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.720 So he jumped into a new profession after he retired 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:39.480 and started doing a golf course design and started studying 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:45.200 people like Charles Blair MacDonald and Donald Ross and going 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.360 around the country and then decided, Okay, I'm gonna build 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:49.720 a golf course on my own property. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.200 And that turned out to be Dornic Hills. This was 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.280 Perry Maxwell's own property at this point. You know, Perry 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:01.400 Maxwell was It sounds like a fairly wealthy man. And 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.080 he came from wealth as well. He grew up in 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.760 a fairly well healed family, is my understanding. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.839 Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know if you would 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.400 really consider them extremely wealthy. I mean they were, they were, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:20.520 They were well off, but obviously going to Ardmore being 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.280 involved with the banking industry and Ardmore during the oil 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:29.760 boom in the southern Oklahoma and northern Texas area. Uh, 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:34.480 he received some benefit from that. He inherited from his 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:40.800 uncle some sizable sums of money, and you yeah, he 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.760 would be pretty wealthy in today's standard, especially in a 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.960 community like Ardmore, which actually Ardmore was a very wealthy community. 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.200 It was at one point in time, in that oil 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:57.360 rich time frame, they had more millionaires per capita than 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.400 any other city in the country, and they all made 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.079 a lot of money off of railroads and cotton industry 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:04.600 in that area. 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.040 So yeah, I mean it was it was way out 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.679 in what would have been at the time the middle 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.840 of nowhere, but it was a financial center of the 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:17.360 middle of nowhere. Yeah. And so in any case, Perry 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.240 Maxwell starts building this golf course on his own land 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.720 what would become Dornick Hills. But at first it was 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.760 a very different looking and different sized golf course than 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.839 it is today. Right, So could you tell me a 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.920 little bit about what this course was at first? 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:38.960 Yeah, So originally he built four holes that were really 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:43.200 close to where his house was on the property. Basically, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.880 he could walk at his back door, tee off on 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.560 the first hole, come back up in the second hole, 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.160 go out to the road on the third hole, and 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.240 come back on the fourth and three of those, the 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.959 first three holes are kind of the layout of what's 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:02.120 there today for holes ten, eleven, twelve, kind of not 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.640 exactly but close enough that you could say those are 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.200 kind of what he was looking at at the time. 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:13.280 And there's stories of his family. His daughter Dora told 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.280 me stories of the kids going out and actually picking 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:20.160 up rocks out of the what would have been fairways 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.360 and picking those up and using them to build walls 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.200 and stuff like that. So started out with that four 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.240 whole course. It was really rough, just laid out. 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:29.840 Over the property. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:35.440 And then he expanded that to basically a nine hole design, 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.840 which is what opened in nineteen fourteen as the official 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.840 Dorni Hills Country Club. And then Maxwell decided, Okay, I 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.600 want to expand this even further, so he expanded it 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.720 and took up part of the property that actually went 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.600 out to the dairy farm that they had out there 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.880 and took part of that property as well. And then 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.560 when he expanded to eighteen holes, that's when he actually 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.400 also incorporated grass greens to do the first grass greens 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:03.600 in the state of Oklahoma. 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.600 This was a sand green territory at the moment. 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:08.960 Yeah, sand and oil green territory. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.680 Very hard to do proper greens in this climate and 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:13.560 on those soils. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:14.360 Yeah. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.040 And that stretch from when he opened the nine hole 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.600 course to when they built eighteen holes, he had gone 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.640 around to a lot of places around southern United States 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.560 trying to research what kind of grass to use because 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.920 he really wanted to have grass greens if he was 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:31.640 going to have an eighteen hole course, he wanted to 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.920 be a proper course. And so that's when he went 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.800 out to places in North Carolina and Florida and he 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.360 met the likes of Donald Ross at that point in time, 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.800 and then came back and used this bent grass that 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.160 was really popular at that point in time to seed 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.880 and grow on warmer climate courses. 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.080 Now he was also, in addition to doing kind of 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.920 agronomic research, he was also doing some architectural research. He 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.720 mentioned earlier that he was influenced by Charles Blair McDonald. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.720 My understanding is that Dornic Hills, the way that it 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:16.360 developed sort of reflected what Perry Maxwell was learning along 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.600 the way. And so could you talk about some of 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.360 the trips that he took, what he saw and then 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.160 how he implemented those ideas on his own land, on 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:25.840 his own course. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:26.840 Yeah. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.040 So the first thing he did was he went out 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.960 when he decided he was going to do this occupation. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:35.800 He decided to go see. 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.560 Charles Blair McDonald because he was influenced by the famous 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:44.240 Scripters article about National Golf Links and wanted to go 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.880 see the father of American golf course architecture, and so 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.160 he went out met McDonald, studied a little bit with 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.280 him and came back with some mind with the mindset 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.040 of Okay, this is how you build a golf course, 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.760 because that's the on person he talked to. So he 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:06.720 started laying out these original nine holes at Dornick. 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.439 Hills, and some of them involved some of. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:13.119 The template concepts that McDonald used at national golf leagues. 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.480 A little bit of like eleven hole on the tenth, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.720 the knowle hole concept is like the fourteenth, a little 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.040 bit seventeenth was probably a little bit of something like that. 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:30.560 So he incorporated some of these concepts in his golf 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:35.520 course on the original nine holes. And then when he 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.120 went wanted to expand to eighteen, He's like he needed 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.560 to go tour some other stuff, So he started touring 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:45.720 the south met donald ross and I think maybe not 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.359 so much with Dornick Hills, although I think he can 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.439 see it because I think if you think about the 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.840 property at Dornic Hills, there's probably not a lot of 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.159 different options of how he could have routed the place. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.840 But he did use like the higher elevations to establish 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.560 and teas goes through play through the valleys down to 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.879 the lower elevations and back up, which is a similar 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.520 concept that what I've seen a lot of ross courses 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.240 that I've I've played. 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.879 Yeah, that the high and dry idea, right, the teas 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.080 need to be high, the greens need to be high. 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.760 You can play through the valleys because that's not as 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.000 important to drain those areas. And so that's it's low 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.720 cost basically a low cost way to build and then 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.080 maintain a golf course. 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:31.320 Right, And that is one of the big things that 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.359 Maxwell is about low cost and building a golf course. 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:35.560 I mean, he was very. 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.680 Proud of the fact that he could go out and 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:42.000 build a golf course probably cheap cheaper than anybody else 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:43.720 that he was competing against. Wayne would go out and 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.119 bid on places if he ever had competition. There were 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:51.879 a few places like hard Scrabble and uh or not 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.640 Ard Scrabble, Hillcrest and Bartlesville, Oklahoma. He had a little 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:56.240 bit of competition there and that was how he won 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:56.600 the bid. 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:58.800 He was the cheapest, cheapest. 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.119 Bid and up building a really nice golf course. So 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:08.080 and then after after doing Dorna Kills and getting that 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.640 really going and he did a tour of Scotland in 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.320 England not so much. I think he could visited a 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.040 few places in England, but it was mostly to go 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:22.120 to Scotland, uh and see Saint Andrew's and and that's 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.000 where he met Mackenzie and then so I think he 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.200 brought him some some concepts from Scotland as well. I mean, 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.320 I think he's got some holes that you would argue 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:39.000 are very very inspired by the winds of Kansas and 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.919 Oklahoma and trying to incorporate that into his design a 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:46.720 little bit. Uh, even even the actual layout of the course. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.840 The original design a place like Vinker Memorial and at 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.440 Iowa State there was a couple of holes that were 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.680 built to mimic the first and eighteenth at Saint Andrew's. 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:01.160 So so he took those lessons the Double Green at 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.639 Old Town there, so. 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.600 That houses seventeen and eight I believe at all Old 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.760 Town spectacular. Now getting back to Dornic Hills real quick 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.320 quick before we move on. By the time he finished 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:19.560 that course, what do you think was distinctive about it? 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:21.640 What were some of the features that would stand out 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.400 to people if they played it and were remembering it. Oh, yeah, 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.840 that's that's something that I saw at Dornic Hills. That's 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:28.640 pretty unique. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:30.040 Well, I think number one. 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.200 Be the cliff hole. The cliff hole the sixteenth of 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.639 part five. It probably was the longest hole in the 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.360 state at the time. And then you have to conquer 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.600 this cliff face that goes forty feet up in the air, 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.399 and if you mean it's it was nothing that was 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.680 seen up until that time, and definitely in Oklahoma and 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.120 in most of that part of the country. I'm sure 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.520 nobody else saw anything like that. Maybe somebody up in 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.560 the northeast where they have a lot more rocky terrain, 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.119 and the grass greens obviously were new. 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:01.960 They were a big. 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:03.840 Change in the mindset of how to build a golf 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:08.199 course in that time frame in Oklahoma, and then the 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.639 course was very difficult. It's funny because Maxwell joked that 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.440 he had the course record for a time being well, 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.240 he was the first guy played at once it opened, 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:20.800 so I didn't speak to how good of a golfer 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.520 he was. He was a decent golfer, but like Charlie, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.240 Coe would come down and actually struggle to break par 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.040 at Dornic Hills. And he was a well known amateur 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.920 champion around the country. It would probably stay known as 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.359 the toughest golf course in the state until Maxwell probably 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.080 built Southern Hills, and then that definitely eclipsed it. 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.200 All right, So Perry Maxwell up until I guess when 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.640 you sort of started doing your research, and maybe when 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.520 Old Town was restored. I'm not exactly sure when Perry 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:54.160 Maxwell's reputation started to ascend again. I mean, Prairie Dunes 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:55.680 has been well known as a great golf course for 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.120 a while, but it wasn't necessarily considered among the very 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.680 top echelon of American golf courses until maybe the past 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.359 couple of decades. For a long time, people just knew 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:12.359 Perry Maxwell as Alistair McKenzie's Midwest associate. And you mentioned 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.119 that Maxwell encountered mackenzie on one of his tours of Scotland. 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.119 How did that relationship develop from there? How did Maxwell 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.399 ultimately become his associate in that area. 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.560 Yeah, so when they were when he was in Scotland, 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:32.560 they made the decision to Mackenzie was ready to move 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:37.000 to America and start working here, and he knew he 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.520 needed at least one person to be a partner when 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:41.520 he came over here, because he didn't know anything about 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.240 America really other than why he had read Impress clippings 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.240 and stuff like that. So he happened to be introduced 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:52.520 to this guy from Oklahoma wherever that was for Alistair mackenzie. 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.359 He probably had no clue, but Maxwell had one thing 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:01.720 that he didn't. He had contacts in contacts with money. 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.280 So McKenzie and him, while he was in Scotland, I think, 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.680 formed this partnership so that when he would come over, 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:13.600