1 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Jordan Dan is a trauma informed somatic therapist, author, teacher, 2 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: and speaker based in New York City. She helps individuals 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: and couples restore vibrancy to their lives by reconnecting with 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: the wisdom of their bodies and guiding couples through a 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: dance of rupture and repair. I personally found Jordan on Instagram, 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: where she uses media clips as stimulus for exploring relational dynamics, 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: which is exactly why I like rottering reality TV as well. 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: So I feel like we have a lot to talk 9 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: about and we have one specific post in particular that 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,319 Speaker 1: I really want to go through today. So first of all, 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: Hi Jordan, Hi, so nice to be here with you. 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. I was reached 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: out to you because my listeners know this as well. 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: I watch Love Is Blind pretty religiously and I get 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: furious with myself for even watching it sometimes, But to 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: your point, for me, it's just such an interesting case 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: study and like human beings and why we do what 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: we do, why we're driven in relationships, how little we 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: seem to know about how to relate to each other, 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: and like it's very obvious to me watching reality TV 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: exactly what you said, like we don't know how to 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: do repair, or you know, like everyone's leading with their 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: attachment style kind of thing, or their trauma from the 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: past relationships they've had or growing up and things like that, 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: and so I get sucked in. I find it fascinating. 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: But I was watching this season, the Love is Blind reunion, 27 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: and I had a very similar reaction to one part 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: of it that we'll get into in a second that 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: you ended up posting about. And I thought to myself, 30 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: Oh my god, thank god somebody's talking about this, because 31 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: I almost feel crazy thinking the way that I think, 32 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: because it seems so different than the way our culture 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: is thinking right now on social media and with reality TV. 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: So let's just get into it. I don't want to 35 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: talk about it. If you haven't watched fully through Love 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: is Blind and you're currently watching, this will have some spoilers, 37 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: So just forewarning to anyone currently not finished with the 38 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: season yet, maybe finish it then come back and listen 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: to this. But you posted about this part of the reunion, 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: which was just difficult for me to watch. But Chris, 41 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: who's one of the men characters, was pretty shitty during 42 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: the season. I would say, and he did not treat 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: his partner Jess very well. 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: He talked about her body as a. 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: Part of the reason he needed to end things with her, 46 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: wanted her to go to pilates. People were infuriated by 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: these things that he said. Fair enough, right, But we 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: get to the reunion and you can tell he's been 49 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: through it, And as a person who was also on 50 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: reality TV and has been drugged through the mud of this, 51 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: I know how bad it is and I cannot imagine 52 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: what he was going through with the hate and the 53 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: humiliation and all that already online. We get to the 54 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: reunion and they just kind of lay into him and 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: it keeps going, and it keeps going, and it's very 56 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: obvious that he's shaky, he's sweaty, he looks like he's 57 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: about to throw up, and it continue going and it 58 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: became so difficult for me to watch. But the responses 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: from people are like so encouraging and like yeah, go girl, 60 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: and go nick Lache, and very encouraging of this shaming 61 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: is what I would call it. So let's start with 62 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: what were you watching and what was your reaction and 63 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: what made you want to make this post on Instagram? 64 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: To begin with. 65 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think and just appreciating what you 66 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 3: brought in as a kind of identification point for yourself, 67 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: which is empathy, like you have some lived experience around 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 3: this that invites you into you know, it is essentially 69 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 3: mentalization in psychology, which is the ability to kind of 70 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: be aware of the mind and body of another as 71 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 3: you also feel your own awareness of your body and 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 3: your lived experience. And so I think my inspiration is 73 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: similar to yours, is like a real feeling of empathy 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: of care. Like again, you know, my care and empathy 75 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: is not gendered, It is not unilateral in any way. 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: I feel a care and empathy for all people. And so, 77 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: you know, while of course we can't know exactly what 78 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: Chris was experiencing in that reunion, it's from a somatic standpoint, 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: it's undeniable that he's having a really intense physiological experience. 80 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: I don't know what that experience is, but what I 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: do know from my clinical work is he's outside of 82 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 3: the window of tolerance. He's in a state of overwhelm, 83 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: whether that's dissociation, rage, you know, shame that actually in 84 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: that state someone can't actually take in an understanding of 85 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 3: what is being offered to them, it's too much. And so, 86 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 3: you know, I think this just took me into the 87 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: culture at large about thinking about this, like, oh my goodness, 88 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 3: people need to actually think critically about the difference between 89 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: accountability and humiliation, and the difference between accountability and public humiliation, 90 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: which you know, is that much more intense, is that 91 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: much more painful, and creates that much more harm for 92 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: an individual. So I really wanted to tease this out. 93 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 3: But what's wild? We can get into the difference between 94 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 3: accountability and humiliation because I think we need to really 95 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: spell that out. 96 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: Expect agreed. 97 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 3: But what is wild? Every time, honestly, every time I 98 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: have a post that goes viral, it really takes me 99 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 3: into a dark place about our culture because what is 100 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 3: stunning to me is that I'm very clear about what 101 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: the lens is that I'm presenting. I have a title, 102 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: I have annotated captions, there is an explanation, which is 103 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 3: essentially inviting someone into Okay, here's this piece of content, 104 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 3: here's the frame to look at this content from people 105 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: do not even engage with the frame. There's no critical thought. 106 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 3: And what you see in these thousands and thousands of 107 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: comments is people using content as an opportunity to reinforce 108 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 3: their beliefs as they already are. I wouldn't even say beliefs, 109 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: it's they see content as an opportunity to react, and 110 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: reaction is not critical thinking. Reaction is like our most 111 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 3: primitive response. There's no humanness in reactivity. I mean, I 112 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 3: guess I could argue that from an evolutionary biology standpoint. 113 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: If we run from a tiger, that's that's that's our humans. 114 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: But when it comes to relationships, like if we don't 115 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 3: have critical thought, if we don't have the ability to 116 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 3: regulate our nervous systems and pause long enough to get 117 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: the frame, get the context, I think, pause, go beyond 118 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: our reaction, then we're just robots. We're nothing more than 119 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 3: AI doing is running an algorithm that is a conglomeration of. 120 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: Our lived experience. 121 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 3: And that's not consciousness and the unconsciousness. 122 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: Oh there's so many things I want to touch on, 123 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: so let me try to get my mind straight here. 124 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: I want to go back to humiliation and shame and 125 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: the difference of that, but I do want to touch 126 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: on this really fast because this is exactly what comes 127 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: up for me when I my like I wasn't I 128 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: was a part of your clip that went viral because 129 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: I commented on it, so then I was getting also 130 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: feedback in the comments section. First of all, some bitch, 131 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: I was like dying because it's like, all I did 132 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: was echo what you said and go, oh, my god, 133 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: exactly what I said at the beginning of this podcast. 134 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: Thank god someone is talking about this, because that was 135 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: my body response, that was my mental response, emotional response, 136 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: all of it. And I feel isolated because the bigger 137 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: picture response is very much what was happening in your 138 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: comment section, and this will tie into public shaming, I think. 139 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me to observe exactly what you 140 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: described the reaction because in my head, and I don't know, 141 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: you're the therapist, so we'll ask this question. But in 142 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: my head, if you're reacting in such a volatile way, 143 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: there's really no difference between that behavior and the behavior 144 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: you're ranting about. So it's like it's just a wild, 145 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: weird thing to look at because you're going and why 146 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: are you justified to say that? But he can't you 147 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: know that feeling where you're going? 148 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: Wait? 149 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: What am I the only one seeing that this behavior 150 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 1: is exactly the same thing, and I can kind of 151 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: get caught on this loop and it is very daunting 152 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: because it's happening on such a big scale. So then 153 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: a person like you or me who's seeing it from 154 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: a different lens, is the lone. 155 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: Wolf voice a little bit. 156 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: You're kind of in this place where you're like, does 157 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: anyone else see what I'm seeing here? And it doesn't 158 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: seem like there's a whole lot of that happening. So 159 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: let's touch on that for a second. Is is that 160 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: behavior kind of of the same thing, of this human 161 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: reaction to whatever it is and acting out of bad behavior, 162 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: similar to what they're getting mad at. Yeah, first place, 163 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? 164 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so glad what you're pointing to because it's 165 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: this is exactly it. It's like, this is like an 166 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the 167 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: aur boris, but it's a snail swallowing its own tail. 168 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 3: That like we're like in the phenomenon you're talking about 169 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 3: the phenomenon that is actually part of the phenomenon that's 170 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 3: the problem, Yeah, which is in people's reactivity, there's no 171 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 3: observing ego, there's no ability to notice one's internal reactions. 172 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: It's just what we call psychoanalysis egosyntonic. So it's just 173 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 3: like I am my reaction. It's just there's no ability 174 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 3: to notice, to observe. It's just it's like again like 175 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: a computer running, it's just doing the algorithm. And so 176 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: inside of that, this is the way things are. Anybody 177 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: who presents anything that is in contrast to that then 178 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: becomes the perpetrator, and then the person becomes an attacker 179 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: on that person. And this is again what we're really 180 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 3: talking about is our diminished capacity as a culture for repair. 181 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 3: This is inherent of this diminishment, which is like a 182 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 3: complete lack of capacity to tolerate difference, a complete lack 183 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 3: of capacity to notice, oh I'm having a reaction. I 184 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: wonder what that reaction is about. But instead what happens 185 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: is I don't like your di and now I'm coming 186 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 3: for you. It's like I'm going to kill Really, what's 187 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 3: happening is inside of that person's system, it's so uncomfortable 188 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 3: to tolerate any dissonance that is different from their reaction 189 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: that in killing you off, coming to attack you, it's 190 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 3: a way to kill off that feeling inside which is 191 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: like oh, it's uncomfortable to look at something that's in 192 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: opposition to what I think I feel, because that's the 193 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 3: other prayer. It's like, reaction isn't really like uh uh, 194 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 3: contended with a belief system. It's just the belief system running. 195 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: And so it's like if you won't, if you don't 196 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: agree with me that Chris is worthy of being stoned 197 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 3: in public, then you're a problem. It's like, well, can 198 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 3: we actually could we actually just talk about the phenomenon instead, 199 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 3: like can you critically engage with the subject matter as 200 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: opposed to killing off the messenger. It's wild, and it's 201 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: it's like a virus that has infected our entire culture. 202 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting you said this stony example, because that was 203 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: literally what I felt. Was when I'm watching the reunion, 204 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: I had these flashes to, you know, past times before 205 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: any of us were alive, where there were these public 206 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: hangings or they would torture people and everyone's screaming and whatever, 207 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: and I'm like, we're doing it. It's the same thing. 208 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: If we think we've evolved, we haven't. We've just we're 209 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: now we're just doing it with technology on TV, on 210 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: a reality show instead of hanging someone in public, but 211 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: you're literally hanging them out to dry in a different way, 212 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: and it will ruin their life in a different way. 213 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: And all of that is true as well, and so 214 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: it was really difficult, or it's really difficult for me 215 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: to just like take that as, oh, okay, this is 216 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: what we're doing, you know. And maybe that is because 217 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: I'm using my critical thinking and others aren't. But even 218 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: when I commented on your post, all I did was 219 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: say thank you, Oh my gosh, yes. 220 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: And I got trolled for that. It was really weird. 221 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: I actually like even took a moment and tried not 222 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: to react myself to say, like, is this really what's 223 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: happening right now? Because what we're doing here, Like this 224 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: is your page you posted about your thought process watching 225 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: this thing. I said thank you. I had the same one, 226 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: And then somehow I was getting trolled saying well, you 227 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: could have turned it off and blah blah blah. I'm like, 228 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: but why do I have to turn it off? Like 229 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm not the one losing it here? Actually I'm just 230 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: like noticing something, but it is so quick, like it's 231 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: which is what makes me think it's a reaction that 232 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: people respond that way. They just like go at you 233 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: and want to tear you down for having a different thought. 234 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: And how much are we seeing that on like a 235 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: bigger scale, you know, Yeah. 236 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: And it's I mean, but it's so it's so primitive, 237 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 3: it's so it's so immature. It's like the lack of 238 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: awareness that like the ground of civil discourse has been left. 239 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 3: And actually it's not even that they're attacking your different position. 240 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 3: They're attacking you. Oh yeah, Like the comments that I 241 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: have gotten are so devaluing, hateful, violent, just towards my personhood, 242 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 3: not even towards the idea like that would be a 243 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 3: that would at least be a little bit of a 244 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 3: shared terrain. 245 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 4: Right, Wow, Okay, So because I have a different perspective, 246 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 4: you want to kill me off? 247 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and look at what that looks like, 248 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 3: writ large on the culture politically, like we have lost 249 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: the capacity for civil discourse. And I think you're totally right. 250 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: I think about this so much. It's like reality TV 251 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: has become the Colisseum. But actually I would argue that 252 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: at least, you know, in the Colosseum, men were volunteering 253 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: to go to their death. There's like and going to 254 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: one's death in a way, at least historically publicly in 255 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: that forum has dignity. It's their sovereignty, one could argue, 256 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: and the willingness to fight like that in public. But 257 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: I think actually in reality TV, like psychological harm is 258 00:16:52,400 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 3: so much more painful. It's invisible, and that actually there's 259 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 3: not a lot of dignity inside of that, and there's 260 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: not a lot of respect for an understanding of what 261 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 3: someone then has to live with for the rest of 262 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: their life, right, and the wildness of the Internet is that, 263 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: like if we think about this just like on a 264 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 3: purely like quantum level, you know, if you thinks started 265 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 3: like think about this in a quantum level. If you 266 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: have a if you have a rupture with a friend, 267 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 3: you have a repair. But the ripples of that kind 268 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: of last a while depends on how good the repair is. 269 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: But like you might if it's a partner, you remind 270 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: the partner of remember the time you hurt me, Like 271 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 3: that in and of itself, that mirror, that echo continues 272 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 3: to show you who you are. But you take that 273 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: onto the Internet and it's just the echoes, and like longevity, 274 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 3: it's disproportionate. Yeah, like someone's mistake doesn't get held in 275 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 3: the context of that relationship. It gets disproportionally echoed into 276 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: the furthest regions of the Internet, and so that people 277 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 3: on the street recognize you and have a perception of 278 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 3: who you are that is entirely based on a structure, editing, 279 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: a manipulation of a singular narrative, a simplication of narrative. 280 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 3: It's just it's it's actually really really tragic. 281 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 282 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: Well, and to speak to that point, and you know, 283 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: obviously you mentioned earlier like I was having an empathetic 284 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: moment observing Chris. I had that thinking before my own experience, 285 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: but then after going through it myself, it was exponentially 286 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: greater that I would observe. I could barely watch reality 287 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: TV for a long time because you once you know 288 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: what I know, you can see how much producers are 289 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: manipulating the entire thing. I mean, it is not what 290 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: you think it is, ever. And if you're seeing a 291 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: scene that has been edited, like you said, to make 292 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: one person look away and another person look another way, 293 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: it could have even been a conversation broken up between 294 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: multiple different times, and they make it look like one 295 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: thing we have. You know, they'll cut out other things 296 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: that this could have been a response to. You're not 297 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: taking into account how little sleep people have, how much 298 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: alcohol has been involved, like what they've been cut off 299 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: from in their own world, and they're you know, floundering 300 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: on their own or things like that. And in my situation, 301 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: what was being said about me wasn't even true, but 302 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: it didn't matter. Nobody cared about that piece of it. 303 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: They only wanted to roast me to the point of 304 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: where I was getting death threats, Like people don't understand 305 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: how bad it is. And so when I now see 306 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: this happening to someone like a Chris, do I think 307 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: that he was in the right with what he said 308 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: and all of that. Absolutely not, And he has some 309 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: work to do. It sounds like on his own self, 310 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: his own you know, security issues within himself and like relationships, 311 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: don't we all though? 312 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: It's what I want to say. 313 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: And if anyone ever thought that when they signed up 314 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: for reality TV it was going to turn out that way, 315 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: do you think that they. 316 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 2: Would sign up for it? 317 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: No, Like, nobody thinks that that is gonna be them 318 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: that it happens too. And so with that said, it 319 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: could be anybody, is the point. And I think when 320 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: you sign. 321 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: Up for these reality shows or. 322 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: You're presented with it like I was, you're presented with 323 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: something completely different than what it ends up being. And 324 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: it's not just like everyone is going on these things 325 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: to be famous or whatever, you know, like everyone thinks 326 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: they know why someone does it, that they're this type 327 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: of person that they do it, and that is just 328 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: simply not true. And I'm saying that as a person 329 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: who has walked through that. So where is it that 330 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: we just can like we're missing this whole piece that 331 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: I just described, Like it's just this one thing, this 332 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: one singular thing we'll look at that Chris said something 333 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: wrong to Jess and then all of a sudden we 334 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: feel like it's okay to ostracize him and just like 335 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: roast him publicly and ruin his life completely and not 336 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: feel guilty about it. 337 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: What is that? 338 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: Well? 339 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: I think this like the frame that is helpful here, 340 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 3: like is maybe starting from a trauma informed lens, which is, 341 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: you know, part of when you become really trauma informed, 342 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 3: you move from experiencing someone's behavior and going what's wrong 343 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 3: with you? To experiencing someone's behavior and going what happened 344 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 3: to you? Oh? Like you know, if we look at 345 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: if we look just simply at the behavior Chris demonstrated 346 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: that has been critiqued, there's some there's some elements of 347 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: kind of toxic masculinity. We could say, you know, his 348 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: criticism of her body, his you know, wanting to steal 349 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 3: this woman away from his friend. Like, those are the 350 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 3: things that I think are really under critique from the reunion, 351 00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 3: and like that as a starting place, like to pin 352 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: that on one person for being responsible for adopting that behavior. 353 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 3: We live in a culture that is dominated by patriarchy, 354 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 3: where men are a culturated and promoted. 355 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: To behave in these ways. 356 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 3: So to make Chris escapegoat for toxic masculinity, as if 357 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 3: killing him off is going to solve the problem of 358 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: this is that that starting place is totally problematic and 359 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 3: absolutely untrue. We all have to really come from a 360 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 3: place of wholeness. Like even with what we're talking about 361 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: of you know, how someone will go from attacking Chris 362 00:23:53,840 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: to then if someone uh huh, you know, defends Chris 363 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 3: and then moves that or it not even defends, but 364 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: expresses empathy and really is saying, okay, yeah, he did 365 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: something problematic, and can we look at how this might 366 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 3: be problematic for him. That's just a widening of a frame. 367 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 3: It's not flattening. It doesn't mean that he did anything wrong. 368 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 3: Like this is also wild. People lack total capacity for nuance, 369 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 3: like to say one thing doesn't make the other thing untrue. 370 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: Like again, that's a polarization of thinking and that's not nuance, 371 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 3: and that's that's not how the world works. But I 372 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 3: think again, like this is if you're familiar with the 373 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: try the drama triangle. The drama triangle is this victim, perpetrator, martyr. 374 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 3: And people move between these polls sometimes feeling like they're 375 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 3: you know that, or even they rigidly identified with one 376 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 3: position in that rigid identification with I'm the victim. And 377 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 3: this is what we see in the comments a lot 378 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 3: like I'm the victim, and in that rigid identification with 379 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 3: I'm the victim, like I'm Jess, I've been wounded, you 380 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: then fail to notice how in that identification you are 381 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 3: then becoming the perpetrator of arm towards someone else. So 382 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: I really think this comes back inside of your question. 383 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: I think what we have to come back to is 384 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: a real understanding of wholeness. We live in a world 385 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 3: where we're culturated by society, we're culturated by our families, 386 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 3: and inside of that, every dynamic exists inside of us. 387 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: You know, we are both perpetrator and victim. We are 388 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 3: male and female, we are all of these. We are, 389 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 3: we are sometimes justified and oftentimes not justified. Like I think, 390 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 3: the starting place is actually realizing that we contain all 391 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 3: of these polarities and that all of these dynamics exist 392 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 3: inside of us. And the moment we go it's you 393 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 3: we've left our own wholeness and inside of that we 394 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: have tried to outsource some part of us and lodge 395 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 3: it inside of another person so we don't have to 396 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: look at it ourselves. 397 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: Let's touch on them. Are I think we had said 398 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: the public shaming slash humiliation versus accountability at this stage, 399 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: because I think you're hitting some of those points. And again, 400 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: like we said, I don't agree with how Chris handled 401 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: any of the stuff on the show. 402 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: I agree. 403 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: I also think there's probably editing. I have no idea, 404 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: but for them to be able to get what they 405 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: got of him, he had to be doing some of it, 406 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, So it's like I don't agree with it. 407 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: And I think he was like a lost puppy. I 408 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: will also remind everyone it's a dating show where where 409 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: they're dating all those people, So I mean it is 410 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: kind of a wild world that they're living in. 411 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: It's not normal life. 412 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: But that does not justify how he spoke to Jess 413 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: any sort of shaming, body shaming. Never agree. Also the 414 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: going behind his friend's back to try to talk to Breed. However, 415 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: then he gets in front of everyone at the reunion 416 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: and you can tell he realizes he was wrong, like 417 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: or that's how I felt. 418 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: Was like it was. 419 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: Very overtly obvious, just in the way he was presenting himself, 420 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: in the way that when anyone was speaking to him 421 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: that he looked he apologized, Like he actually apologized. That's 422 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: what people are missing too, Like it's not like he's 423 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: sitting there trying to like double down on his behavior. 424 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: He's going, I am sorry. So if he can admit wrongdoing, 425 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, Well, like a narcissist can ever apologize. 426 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: So those are green flags to me in that we're 427 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: all human. We all say it's things that we don't 428 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: meet or bad things or whatever at sometimes and the 429 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: way that we grow is by looking at those things 430 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 1: and changing the behavior. But they launch into this like 431 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: assault against him is what I would say. And they 432 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: were even bringing up stuff like Jess was labeling why 433 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: she thought he did it that way. Instead of them 434 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: asking him, they asked Jess and Jess is like, well, 435 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: I think it's because he's worried about his finances and 436 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: all of this stuff, so exposing all of these like 437 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: very private things about him now. So again, to me, 438 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, y'all are doing the same thing now, So 439 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: what is making you sit in this place that you 440 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: feel so justified? Yet the crowd is cheering and Jess 441 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: is having this like, you know, big like female empowerment moment, 442 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: and to me, I was like, that's not empowering. What 443 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: Colin is that his name or the one that was 444 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: just like yeah, I don't have anything to say to that, 445 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: and you just like shut it down. 446 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I like that. To me, that was 447 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: like be the bigger person. 448 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 3: Move on. 449 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: You don't need to like harp on this. You got 450 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: the girl like keep going, let's go. But so let's 451 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: talk about that. What is the difference between holding someone 452 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: accountable and then launching into an equally destructive behavior in 453 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: shaming or humiliating the person to try to prove that 454 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: you're in the right. 455 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. So accountability is naming harm. So if someone's on 456 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: the receiving, you know, if someone has created the hurtful impacts, 457 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 3: they're acknowledging, they're naming what it was that they did 458 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: that was harmful. There's mentalization, Like like I said before, 459 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 3: accountability requires like I'm holding my awareness of myself in 460 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 3: my mind and my awareness of you and your experience 461 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 3: in my mind. That just from a neuro physiological standpoint, 462 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 3: you have to be in the window of tolerance to 463 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 3: be able to mentalize. 464 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: If you're out of the. 465 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: Window of tolerance, you cannot hold an awareness of the 466 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 3: other person. It's a higher level thinking skill. You need 467 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: your prefrontal cortex. 468 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: Okay. 469 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: And then also that there's a possibility for repair, So 470 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 3: that means you don't have to forgive me, but it 471 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 3: might be possible that there's at least that I can 472 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 3: hear about how my acknowledgment of the harm reached you. 473 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: And sometimes you know, in like in trauma research we 474 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 3: talk about that can always happen. Like this is where 475 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 3: restorative justice comes in. It doesn't repair can't always happen 476 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 3: between the person, the person who has caused hart and 477 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 3: the perpetrator and the victim, but actually they there's often 478 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 3: a wider holding of that person that's empathetic and can 479 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: actually support that person, so that person remains feeling human, 480 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 3: feeling dignified, having their subjectivity intact. And I think that's 481 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 3: the real difference of accountability is that there is a 482 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 3: preservation of subjectivity. I am able to remain a person 483 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 3: with dignity even though I have caused harm, and that 484 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: actually that duality, yeah, I'm a person, I have dignity 485 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 3: and I also caused harm is what actually allows for metabolization. 486 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 3: It allows me to really go, oh wow, I've really 487 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 3: seen this mirror, and I'm feeling motivated to really now 488 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 3: see myself and start to notice all the other places 489 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 3: where I might be doing this in my life to 490 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: other people, to see how I've done it in my past, 491 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 3: and that creates growth and change inside of the person. 492 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 3: Humiliation is exposure. There's power asymmetry. Asymmetry, so it's like 493 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 3: a you know that there's a court or there's a 494 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: court experience, whether that's actually the court of public opinion 495 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 3: or the court of the reunion audience. The person who 496 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 3: has caused harm is as you just mentioned, like they 497 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: don't have their voice and their agency. So even in 498 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 3: that example of asking Jess about his motivations, there's an 499 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: instance of robbing Chris from his own ability to actually 500 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 3: mine well. 501 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: Oh, let me think about that. 502 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 3: Like that process of reflection and then being able to say, oh, 503 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 3: these are them might have been the reasons allows him 504 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 3: further integration and understanding. And then there's as I said, 505 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: like shame overwhelmed association inside of humiliation because of that 506 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: level of exposure, whether it's the Internet or the audience 507 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 3: or just even a number of people, that pushes someone 508 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: outside of their window of tolerance. And actually, as a 509 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 3: result of that, no metabolization and integration happens. And actually 510 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 3: there's so much research that shows that humiliation what it 511 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 3: produces is not growth and change. Accountability creates growth and 512 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: change if the person is capable. Humiliation creates compliance. I'll 513 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 3: do the behavior without any understanding as to why collapse, 514 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 3: just which sometimes looks like self harm, retreat, suicide, or retaliation, 515 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: which means that that person ramps up the problematic behavior 516 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: because they've been so hurt and they've had no dignity 517 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 3: or understanding of their behaviors. Like, this is when we 518 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 3: see school shootings, this is when we see domestic violence. 519 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 3: This is an increase of the problematic behavior that was 520 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 3: attempting to be addressed in the first place. 521 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: I've said that a million times. And this is a 522 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: topic I don't fully want to dive into because it's 523 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: so divisive. But the school shooting thing, I'm like, when 524 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: are we going to accept that if we bully people 525 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: and treat people as an other, that they're going to 526 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: react every time? 527 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 2: Like I don't. 528 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 1: I find that a very frustrating topic that people cannot 529 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: observe that some of this is from the way we're 530 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: treating each other. 531 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 3: Yes, and I love what you just said. Other because 532 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 3: this is the difference between subject and up a subject. 533 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 3: Subjectivity is their personhood, it's their dignity, it's their ability 534 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 3: to be a full person. Object objectification is you're not 535 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 3: a person, you have no like it's a one flattening 536 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 3: and a one dimensionality. And what you're speaking to exactly 537 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 3: is when someone is bullied, they're treated as an object. 538 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 3: And if someone is treated as an object, that can 539 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 3: absolutely lead to taking someone else's life because they are 540 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 3: just treating that other person the way they've been treated. 541 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 3: Oh you I've been treated as an object. Well you're 542 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 3: an object too, Like if you really feel your own 543 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 3: subjectivity and you can't help but feel another person's subjectivity, 544 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 3: and inside of that, you can't help but feel the empathy, 545 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 3: which is the starting place, which is I don't want 546 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 3: harm to be cause to you. 547 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: Right, Well, I want to talk a little bit more 548 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: about shame because I think that's what we're doing, thinking 549 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: that it will show them, you know, teach them a lesson. 550 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: And what you said was so interesting to me. It's 551 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: what I instinctively thought. But when you're shaming someone, or 552 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: when I've seen this happen, or when it's been done 553 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: to me, most of the time I just end up 554 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: shutting down or I see other people just shut down, 555 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: shut down, shut down. You disassociate to stay safe. But 556 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: like you said, it's not integrating, like you're not actually 557 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: taking in what someone else is saying, putting it into 558 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: your brain of like, oh, connecting the dots, you know, 559 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: and then actually able to do a change behavior because 560 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: you have the hope that if I do the change behavior, 561 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: maybe there could be repair, or maybe I wouldn't be 562 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: such a monster. So when you're shamed over and over 563 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: and over, the only narrative is not even like the 564 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: behavior was wrong, it's like I am wrong, and so 565 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: like if you're wrong completely as a human, what are 566 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: your options for doing any better? And that's what I 567 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: don't think people get is like we're literally putting people 568 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: up out in the court of public opinion, Like we're 569 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: stoning people back from back in the day, and we're 570 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: going and then why would he not change his behavior? 571 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: Or how is this continuing to still happen over and 572 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: over and over? Like all men are so fucked up? 573 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, why are men gonna ever or 574 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: how are men ever going to learn to be any different? 575 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: If this is the only way we're like teaching or 576 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: talking about this, Does that make sense? 577 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: Can you can you go in further into that? 578 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think just to kind of amplify 579 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 3: what you're saying, which is, yeah, when when it's like 580 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 3: shaming someone is is essentially like stripping them of their humanity. 581 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,720 Speaker 3: Like the difference between saying like if I were speaking 582 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 3: to Chris, the difference between saying like, when you said 583 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: that about my body, I felt so hurt. It reminded 584 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 3: me of all of the times men have dismissed me 585 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 3: on account of how I look, and it was so painful. 586 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 3: That is different from you're a toxic man. You don't 587 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 3: know you you're so superficial, you don't have any idea 588 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 3: of how to treat a woman like there's nothing that 589 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 3: is motivating about that statement. Again, it's objectifying language. You're 590 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 3: like everybody else. And so, yeah, I mean shame from 591 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: a physiological standpoint, it's a collapse. It's an internal collapse. 592 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 3: We want to hide, we want to remove ourselves. And 593 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 3: if in shaming, there's no good reason to be inspired 594 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 3: about changing your behavior to do better by the next person, 595 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 3: or do it better with that person the next time. Yeah, 596 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 3: so it's just totally defeating. 597 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 2: You know what else. 598 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: So I was just thinking about as you were saying that, 599 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: from Jess's perspective, to shame him and get what she 600 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: got was probably less satisfying than if she had presented 601 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: it the way you said and he was able to 602 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: give a true apology and she could sense that, do 603 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, I think as humans. 604 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: We can sense into when someone's authentically truly sorry and 605 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: they want to change their behavior. But because he was 606 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: put under such a microscope and then tortured the way 607 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: that he was, I'm not sure she got the closure 608 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: that she could have gotten. And I don't know, maybe 609 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: she feels great about it, but like without just trying 610 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: to stick it to him, like if she had sat 611 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: in her own authority, and it seems like she's in 612 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: a great place with the new relationship, So like, what's 613 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: even the point? 614 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: That's what I felt like, Yeah, I love that you're 615 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 3: bringing awareness back to is the person who has experienced 616 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 3: the harm being choiceful about. 617 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 2: What they'd liked? 618 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 3: Would they like repair with the person who has heard 619 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 3: them or do they want to stew in their righteousness 620 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 3: and mindication about having been hurt? Which maybe momentary satisfaction, sure, 621 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 3: but it's not relational satisfaction. 622 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 2: Right. 623 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: So, if we were going to tell listeners like an 624 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: example of how to talk about true accountability in a 625 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: situation like we witness on Love is Blind, what would 626 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: an example be of how to talk to Chris about 627 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: taking full accountability for how he behaved? And then like, 628 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: what could that conversation could have looked like if they 629 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: had handled it in a way that was focused on 630 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: accountability and not shaming. 631 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the process of accountability. If you've caused harm, 632 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 3: name the name the behavior, apologize for it. Really like 633 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 3: a full body in apology, not a performative apology, not 634 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but no explanation. Just name the behavior, apologize, 635 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 3: then say I want to hear more about what this 636 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 3: was like for you to welcome more expression from the 637 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 3: other person and to sit there and tolerate it and 638 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 3: support yourself to hear more about what the harm was, 639 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 3: and then asking what else what can I do for repair? 640 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 3: Like what do you need from me to essentially restore 641 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 3: trust and safety in our relationship? And like you know, 642 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 3: that's that's what needs to happen in couples in instances 643 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 3: where they go harm has happened outside of that, like 644 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 3: the other person doesn't owe that person forgiveness, Like that 645 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 3: might be enough. But the naming, the apology and then 646 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 3: the invitation to hear more or repair in any way 647 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 3: is what the person who has caused hard needs to do. 648 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: Okay, it's super helpful. I have a question for you personally, 649 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: and this is just for me and some of my 650 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: friends who I know listen who feel the same way. 651 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 1: But since you're a person who seems to be thinking 652 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: a little differently than like the mass culture right now, 653 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,919 Speaker 1: how are you taking care of yourself amongst that? Because 654 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: I mentioned to you at the beginning of this podcast, 655 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: like I feel very isolated often because my thinking does 656 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 1: go to what happened to them? 657 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 4: What? 658 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: You know, what's the behind the scenes story here? What 659 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: are we missing? What are we not being pitched? Like, 660 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: I'm always looking at life that way also with my 661 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: own behavior, that's how I move through life. Is kind 662 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: of just like huh, that's an saying why did I 663 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: do that? Or you know, like I feel like I'm 664 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: a pretty self aware person or I'm constantly like working 665 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:05,839 Speaker 1: on that. 666 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 2: So what are ways that you take care of yourself? 667 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: Mixed in with this lack of any of those things 668 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 1: that I just said being the main way that our 669 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: most people seem to be moving or the loudest voice at. 670 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 3: Least honestly doing what we just did, like this is 671 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 3: a huge like this is a huge form of my 672 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 3: self care, which is to create content with nuance, to 673 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 3: respond with civility to trolls, to invite dialogue and to 674 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 3: just feel that to like enjoy my own integrity, Yeah, 675 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 3: and enjoy my own capacity to see the wider picture, 676 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 3: to hold the complexity of human beings and of life 677 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 3: like that feels really good to me, Like I take 678 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 3: the light in feeling my own ability to hold the 679 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 3: wider frame and feel I take enjoyment actually from not 680 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 3: demonizing people. I mean telling my respond to a comment, 681 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 3: and I treat the other person like a human, like 682 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 3: a human being worthy of respect. I can feel myself 683 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 3: like grow a little bit larger. 684 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: It's interesting because we often forget how connected we all are, 685 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 1: or that's the way that I think. And so when 686 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: you're demonizing someone else, you're going. 687 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 2: To feel that yourself. 688 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: If you act with kindness to someone else, it feels 689 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: nice within yourself, Like it's just an interesting thing that 690 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: we miss sometimes and it's so simple. But I love 691 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: that you just brought me back to that reminder. And 692 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: even when the trolls are trolling and it's really difficult, 693 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: it always feels better to either not respond. Usually that's 694 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: the best option for me, but if I do, to 695 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: do it from a kind place, wish them well on 696 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: their journey and know that we are on separate journeys. 697 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 2: They gotta go. 698 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: Jordan, thank you so much for doing this with me. 699 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: I love your page. If you guys want to go 700 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: check it out. I'm gonna put all of the links 701 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: to her Instagram, website, everything substack. 702 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 2: Because you write a lot of articles. 703 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: I'll also put a link to the article that she 704 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: wrote about this exact situation in the description of this podcast. 705 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: Is there anywhere else that you would direct people to 706 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: go look at work or figure out how to work 707 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:31,919 Speaker 1: with you? 708 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 3: You nailed it all. 709 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much of course, so all of that will 710 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: be in the description of this podcast. You guys go 711 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: check that out and thank you so much for listening.