1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Bushkin. 2 00:00:22,356 --> 00:00:24,916 Speaker 2: I was a fan of John mcquarter long before I 3 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:27,436 Speaker 2: met him for the first time. Mccorter is a linguist 4 00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:30,716 Speaker 2: at Columbia University and a music lover and a New 5 00:00:30,796 --> 00:00:35,236 Speaker 2: York Times columnist, basically a renaissance man. It was maybe 6 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:38,196 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen when we first spoke. At the time, I 7 00:00:38,276 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 2: was working on something about Tom Bradley, who was mayor 8 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:44,796 Speaker 2: of Los Angeles from nineteen seventy three to nineteen ninety three, 9 00:00:45,236 --> 00:00:47,756 Speaker 2: And while I listened to old tapes of Bradley, I 10 00:00:47,916 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 2: was struck by something I heard. Listen, there is nothing 11 00:00:51,636 --> 00:00:52,516 Speaker 2: there to hide. 12 00:00:52,716 --> 00:00:55,916 Speaker 1: I want everybody to know that Tom Bradley's life has 13 00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:59,276 Speaker 1: been an open book. And you know this is another 14 00:00:59,276 --> 00:01:00,156 Speaker 1: demonstration of that. 15 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:05,756 Speaker 2: Tom Bradley is black, born in Texas, grew up in 16 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:09,076 Speaker 2: south central Los Angeles. So I went to see mcquarter, 17 00:01:09,436 --> 00:01:12,076 Speaker 2: went to his rabbit warren of an office, played him 18 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:14,996 Speaker 2: that bit of tape and said, explain this to me. 19 00:01:15,796 --> 00:01:18,636 Speaker 2: Why does a black guy whose parents were sharecroppers from 20 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:23,156 Speaker 2: Texas sound like Carry Grant? And for an hour of 21 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:27,556 Speaker 2: the most wonderful conversation he explained to me exactly why 22 00:01:27,556 --> 00:01:31,196 Speaker 2: he did. Fast forward a few years, I was doing 23 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 2: our series on the nineteen thirty six Olympics, and I 24 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 2: got obsessed with Dorothy Thompson, who was one of the 25 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:39,796 Speaker 2: most important journalists in the world in the nineteen thirties. 26 00:01:40,316 --> 00:01:42,556 Speaker 2: And I heard some old tapes of her and she 27 00:01:42,756 --> 00:01:46,276 Speaker 2: sounded like she was the Duchess of York. Only do 28 00:01:46,276 --> 00:01:49,516 Speaker 2: you know where she grew up? Buffalo? So who do 29 00:01:49,556 --> 00:01:51,796 Speaker 2: I go to see to explain how people from Buffalo 30 00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:55,076 Speaker 2: end up sounding like English royalty? You guessed it, John 31 00:01:55,156 --> 00:01:59,596 Speaker 2: mc warter. My point is that there is a certain 32 00:01:59,676 --> 00:02:03,676 Speaker 2: kind of question about language, about race, about why we 33 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 2: speak the way we speak, for which the only answer is, 34 00:02:07,276 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 2: let's call up John mcquarter. I love John mcquarter and 35 00:02:12,516 --> 00:02:14,196 Speaker 2: when he said he had a new book coming out 36 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 2: called Pronoun Trouble, I asked him could I interview you 37 00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:23,836 Speaker 2: about it? And lucky for me, he said yes. My 38 00:02:23,956 --> 00:02:27,356 Speaker 2: name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is Revisionist History, my podcast 39 00:02:27,356 --> 00:02:31,636 Speaker 2: about things overlooked and misunderstood. In this episode, we're going 40 00:02:31,716 --> 00:02:34,516 Speaker 2: to run the conversation I had with Jah mcquarter this 41 00:02:34,556 --> 00:02:38,716 Speaker 2: spring at the ninety second Street Why, which was delightful. 42 00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 2: I did this interview with John right after finishing up 43 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:47,036 Speaker 2: the Joe Rogan episode of Revisionist History. If you listen 44 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 2: to it, you'll know that I spent a lot of 45 00:02:49,156 --> 00:02:53,596 Speaker 2: time talking about how to properly interview someone, how hard 46 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:56,396 Speaker 2: it is, and how Joe Rogan could learn a lot 47 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 2: from someone like Oprah. And that episode was very much 48 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:02,156 Speaker 2: on my mind as I was interviewing the quarter because 49 00:03:02,196 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 2: I was thinking, oh am I going to measure up. 50 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:09,796 Speaker 2: Where do I land on the Oprah Joe Rogan continuum. 51 00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:12,116 Speaker 2: I'll let you be the judge of that. Although I 52 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:15,316 Speaker 2: will say this is not exactly a fair test. The 53 00:03:15,396 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 2: degree of difficulty with interviewing someone as charming as John 54 00:03:19,396 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 2: mcwarter is very very hell hello everyone, thanks for coming, John, 55 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:31,996 Speaker 2: Thank you for agreeing to join us tonight. 56 00:03:32,196 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 1: Malcolm, thank you for having me. 57 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:37,316 Speaker 2: No the this is our I wanted to. I was 58 00:03:37,316 --> 00:03:39,836 Speaker 2: thinking back when I I first met you, and I 59 00:03:39,836 --> 00:03:42,196 Speaker 2: think it was I called you opera went to see 60 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:48,076 Speaker 2: you because I was doing something on the first black 61 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:50,596 Speaker 2: mayor of Los Angeles, Tom Bradley. It was Tom Bradley, 62 00:03:50,596 --> 00:03:52,276 Speaker 2: that's right, yeah, And I was listening to tapes of 63 00:03:52,356 --> 00:03:55,996 Speaker 2: him speaking and he sounded like the whitest guy I 64 00:03:55,996 --> 00:03:57,756 Speaker 2: could imagine and I was trying to. 65 00:03:57,756 --> 00:04:00,436 Speaker 1: Figure out why I sounded like a Disney announcer. 66 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:04,196 Speaker 2: And you gave wait, tell me a little bit before 67 00:04:04,196 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 2: we even get into this. It was so much fun 68 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:08,516 Speaker 2: your answer. Explain to me why that would be. 69 00:04:08,596 --> 00:04:11,596 Speaker 1: So I don't remember what I said then because it 70 00:04:11,636 --> 00:04:14,316 Speaker 1: was before you know what, and therefore it feels like 71 00:04:14,356 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 1: it was seventy five years ago. But I know that 72 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: I probably would have said that he would have grown 73 00:04:19,076 --> 00:04:24,316 Speaker 1: up in a time when the unspoken cultural expectations of 74 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:27,716 Speaker 1: oratory culture were such that if you were trying to 75 00:04:27,796 --> 00:04:30,516 Speaker 1: make your way in the world, whatever color you are, 76 00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 1: as an American, there was an expectation that you would 77 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:38,036 Speaker 1: learn the standard dialect and be absolutely comfortable in it. Frankly, 78 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 1: Booker T. Washington did that too. He was born a slave. 79 00:04:40,716 --> 00:04:43,556 Speaker 1: If you listen to recordings, you'd think he was Teddy Roosevelt, 80 00:04:43,676 --> 00:04:46,116 Speaker 1: and that's because that's what you had to do, which 81 00:04:46,156 --> 00:04:48,556 Speaker 1: was kind of unfair. But I was thinking he comes 82 00:04:48,596 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 1: from the time when black people were expected to speak 83 00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:55,036 Speaker 1: that way if they wanted to have public influence. And 84 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: I'm sure that he spoke in different ways when he 85 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 1: did not have the camera on him, didn't I say 86 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 1: that I'm trying. 87 00:05:02,076 --> 00:05:05,636 Speaker 2: To say something along that lines, and we were the thing. 88 00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 2: The fascinating question is when it did death stop? It stopped? 89 00:05:09,596 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, he doesn't. 90 00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:12,356 Speaker 2: Sound like that if he's the mayor of Los Angeles today. 91 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:15,956 Speaker 1: No. No, that ended in the late sixties, and there 92 00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:17,876 Speaker 1: was a new idea, and in some ways a healthy 93 00:05:17,916 --> 00:05:20,916 Speaker 1: idea that to be taken seriously. You don't have to 94 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 1: learn to talk in the standard way. You can express 95 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 1: yourself how you feel like it. 96 00:05:25,156 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 2: The minute I mentioned Tom Brady to you, you were like, oh, 97 00:05:29,036 --> 00:05:31,076 Speaker 2: I remember I played you with tape. You're like, oh, 98 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:33,636 Speaker 2: And I realized, oh, this is old hat for John. 99 00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:35,676 Speaker 2: This is what it means to be a linguist. You're 100 00:05:35,716 --> 00:05:39,036 Speaker 2: constantly entertaining, asking yourself those kinds of questions. You can't 101 00:05:39,116 --> 00:05:40,276 Speaker 2: let a. 102 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:44,436 Speaker 1: More or less. Yeah. Although I happen to be what's 103 00:05:44,516 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 1: called a historical linguist, which means that I'm interested in 104 00:05:47,076 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 1: how language changes, you can be somebody who's interested in 105 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 1: just how language is right now, in which case that 106 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:56,396 Speaker 1: Tom Bradley question would be less of interest. But for me, 107 00:05:56,636 --> 00:05:58,436 Speaker 1: it's all about what was going on in the past, 108 00:05:58,476 --> 00:06:02,236 Speaker 1: and especially nowadays, we're at the point where you have 109 00:06:02,476 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 1: one hundred years it's actually technically one hundred and two 110 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 1: years of people recorded speaking and moving at the same time. 111 00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:14,916 Speaker 1: And so there's some sound films starting in nineteen twenty three, 112 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: and that to me is history, especially now that we've 113 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: got the Internet and so you can just see these 114 00:06:19,836 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 1: things happening and you can listen to the way people talk, 115 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 1: and so that's something I do. Not all linguists would 116 00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:27,156 Speaker 1: be inclined to do that. They would do other interesting things, 117 00:06:27,196 --> 00:06:30,916 Speaker 1: but it's a little obsession of mine, especially lately. How 118 00:06:30,956 --> 00:06:34,036 Speaker 1: has American English changed over about the past one hundred 119 00:06:34,036 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 1: and twenty five years. When you can actually hear it, 120 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 1: you can listen to this won't go on for too 121 00:06:38,956 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 1: much longer, but you can listen to the black musical 122 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:45,556 Speaker 1: theater artist Bert Williams, who has a certain name, but 123 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:48,556 Speaker 1: he first became famous working with George Walker. They're two 124 00:06:48,596 --> 00:06:50,876 Speaker 1: black men. You can see them in pictures and you 125 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:53,676 Speaker 1: know they've got the minstrel makeup and they're in these 126 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:55,956 Speaker 1: forced poses and you kind of think, what were they 127 00:06:56,036 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 1: like and it's hard to tell. There's some recordings of them, 128 00:06:58,556 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 1: there are a few, and they're like like that. You 129 00:07:01,356 --> 00:07:04,516 Speaker 1: can listen to the way they spoke and sang. They 130 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 1: both sound Caribbean, including George Walker who grew up in Kansas, 131 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 1: because Black English vowels were different back then. If you 132 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:15,076 Speaker 1: listen to black people on cylinders from the eighteen nineties 133 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 1: and then then they don't say quote, they say quote 134 00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: like that somebody's gonna marry me. Somebody's going to marry me. 135 00:07:22,276 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 1: That's how they sounded. And so these are the obsessions 136 00:07:25,276 --> 00:07:27,356 Speaker 1: that one starts to have. 137 00:07:27,836 --> 00:07:31,676 Speaker 2: When you say you have but this sounds like a 138 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:35,916 Speaker 2: fantastic obsession. By the way, how does that like? Is 139 00:07:35,956 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 2: this something you do sort of for fun? In other words, 140 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 2: do you have places you go to find these historical 141 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:45,316 Speaker 2: or are you just watching a movie from the thirties 142 00:07:45,396 --> 00:07:47,996 Speaker 2: and you stop it and you go back five minutes 143 00:07:48,036 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 2: and you lay up on. 144 00:07:49,036 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: Both of those things. Yeah, and it's not only black people, 145 00:07:52,276 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 1: it's just people in general. Listen to that vowel. Why 146 00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:59,196 Speaker 1: did the person use the word fantastical in that particular way. 147 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:01,316 Speaker 1: There are all sorts of things, and then like, do 148 00:08:01,356 --> 00:08:03,796 Speaker 1: I go looking for it? Not necessarily, but if I 149 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:08,036 Speaker 1: find out that there is some four CD player set 150 00:08:08,276 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 1: called Sad of the deep past. The first thing I'm 151 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:14,556 Speaker 1: thinking is how interesting could most of that be? But 152 00:08:14,636 --> 00:08:17,436 Speaker 1: there'll be two things where somebody is black or somebody 153 00:08:17,596 --> 00:08:20,676 Speaker 1: is using something colloquial. And so I'll listen to all 154 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:23,516 Speaker 1: four of those damn CDs once because you never know 155 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:26,556 Speaker 1: what you're gonna get, and you get just enough to 156 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:28,876 Speaker 1: put into books and to mention to you and things 157 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 1: like that. 158 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:32,876 Speaker 2: So when did you when did you, at what point 159 00:08:32,916 --> 00:08:37,196 Speaker 2: in your in your career life, whatever, did you realize 160 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,396 Speaker 2: that this was something of particular interest to you? 161 00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 1: You mean linguistics in general. 162 00:08:42,036 --> 00:08:43,996 Speaker 2: No, No, this thing you're just talking about that. 163 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:53,236 Speaker 1: It's a summer day in nineteen seventy five and my 164 00:08:53,356 --> 00:08:56,436 Speaker 1: father's got his beer and he's watching this bad old 165 00:08:56,476 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 1: movie and it was a movie biography, old one of 166 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:06,156 Speaker 1: Stephen Foster, and the people keep walking through and they 167 00:09:06,316 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 1: the vowels are different, and I'm gonna write swanee River. 168 00:09:09,716 --> 00:09:11,756 Speaker 1: And I asked d why did they talk that way? 169 00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:15,356 Speaker 1: And he said, well, you know, things change, and that's 170 00:09:15,396 --> 00:09:18,916 Speaker 1: about all he had. But I remember thinking those were 171 00:09:18,956 --> 00:09:22,556 Speaker 1: real people and yet they don't talk like us. Why? 172 00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 1: And then a seed was gradually planted. There's an episode 173 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 1: of I've ever spoken about this. There's an episode of 174 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 1: the Lucy Show, not I Love Lucy, but her second 175 00:09:33,076 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: show that got bad. And in one of the early episodes, 176 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 1: Lucy gets a maid and the maid is snobbish, and 177 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:43,316 Speaker 1: so Lucy starts buying the maid lunch and at one 178 00:09:43,316 --> 00:09:46,316 Speaker 1: point she says, Oh, it's a roast chicken. It's broasted. 179 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 1: And she says, it's broasted. And I was listening to 180 00:09:48,756 --> 00:09:50,636 Speaker 1: that when I was about thirteen and thinking, that's not 181 00:09:50,676 --> 00:09:53,196 Speaker 1: a word anymore. Is it? That sort of thing for 182 00:09:53,236 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 1: some reason interests me? And next thing, you know, you've 183 00:09:56,716 --> 00:09:59,836 Speaker 1: got so much of it stuck crowding out more important 184 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:02,956 Speaker 1: things in your head. But you can write books about. 185 00:10:02,716 --> 00:10:05,756 Speaker 2: It, John, you gotta do better than that. You can't 186 00:10:05,796 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 2: say for some reason it interested me. You got to 187 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:10,556 Speaker 2: tell me good, tell us more than that. 188 00:10:11,476 --> 00:10:15,356 Speaker 1: The way people talk is very resonant to me. And 189 00:10:15,356 --> 00:10:17,836 Speaker 1: as I've gotten older, I've realized that for other people 190 00:10:17,836 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 1: it's the way people walk, or the way somebody dances, 191 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: of the way people dress. But I know from a 192 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:26,836 Speaker 1: very early age just speech was interesting. It was a 193 00:10:26,916 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 1: window into the soul. People spoke differently, and that was 194 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:34,116 Speaker 1: about this much blackness. It was just listening to people 195 00:10:34,476 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 1: in general, getting a sense that my teachers had a 196 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 1: certain accent that the white people on TV didn't have. 197 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:44,756 Speaker 1: In Philadelphia, you say lousy whereas Lucy says lousy. And 198 00:10:44,796 --> 00:10:49,076 Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, that's interesting, annoying my southern relatives 199 00:10:49,076 --> 00:10:51,756 Speaker 1: by noticing that they had different vocabulary here and there. 200 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:54,156 Speaker 1: You know, I'm this little kid, I talk like missed 201 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 1: and I say, you say Carrie when we would say take, 202 00:10:56,756 --> 00:10:59,876 Speaker 1: and they would get tired of that. But I realized 203 00:10:59,876 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: that it was because I was interested in dialect. Also, 204 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:08,556 Speaker 1: one thing I missed, and I think it's partly from 205 00:11:08,596 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 1: being black, is I never heard Black English as wrong. 206 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:14,636 Speaker 1: I didn't grow up speaking it. I grew up hearing it. 207 00:11:14,676 --> 00:11:17,316 Speaker 1: I have a good passive competence. But I remember cousins 208 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 1: who you know very much, spoke it and they would 209 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:22,596 Speaker 1: use features of Black English, and I would listen and 210 00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:25,596 Speaker 1: not think nothing. You know, some people just not care. 211 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:29,676 Speaker 1: I would not think that's bad grammar, that's wrong. I 212 00:11:29,676 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 1: wouldn't think it was exotic. I would listen to it 213 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 1: and think, hmm, that's different from the way I would 214 00:11:35,156 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 1: put it, And I wonder, why is that based on 215 00:11:39,116 --> 00:11:41,076 Speaker 1: something in history. I had one cousin who was using 216 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 1: what we call the narrative, had people who studied Black 217 00:11:43,796 --> 00:11:45,996 Speaker 1: English and so, and then we had gone downstairs, and 218 00:11:46,036 --> 00:11:47,556 Speaker 1: then we had seen that there was a raccoon in 219 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:49,076 Speaker 1: the basement, and then we had said, hey, let's get 220 00:11:49,116 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 1: rid of that raccoon. And then we had gone back upstairs. 221 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:53,396 Speaker 1: And I keep waiting for you had what, and then what, 222 00:11:54,036 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 1: and it was just all had And I remember listening 223 00:11:56,676 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 1: to Darren doing that and thinking that must be different 224 00:12:00,076 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: instead of him not knowing what had means. And then 225 00:12:02,996 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: years later I found out that linguist had written about that. 226 00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 2: Wait, my wife, who's black, Uh, she uses that. That's 227 00:12:11,076 --> 00:12:14,396 Speaker 2: where it comes from. What she sticks head in the 228 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:15,476 Speaker 2: craziest places. 229 00:12:16,996 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 1: It might be a black thing, yes, or like when 230 00:12:19,676 --> 00:12:22,396 Speaker 1: Will Smith says, well, what had happened was he's. 231 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 2: What she did? 232 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: Yeah? 233 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 2: She said today she said, I had went. I don't 234 00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:32,516 Speaker 2: understand this is a highly educated went to Princeton lawyer 235 00:12:33,196 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 2: in she just takes head and just kind of like 236 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:39,676 Speaker 2: shovels it in randomly into her senses. 237 00:12:39,996 --> 00:12:42,836 Speaker 1: That is, that is because it's a good, earthy yet 238 00:12:42,836 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 1: systematic way of using using the language. It's called narrative had. 239 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:50,036 Speaker 1: There are papers about it, noticeably papers. There's one paper 240 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:50,436 Speaker 1: about it. 241 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:54,276 Speaker 2: So her father, wait, I want to her father grew 242 00:12:54,356 --> 00:12:58,836 Speaker 2: up in both Harlem and Jacksonville, Florida, and he would 243 00:12:58,876 --> 00:13:00,436 Speaker 2: be growing up in the fifties. 244 00:13:01,636 --> 00:13:04,076 Speaker 1: He would have gotten that narrative had from Harlem, most 245 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:08,156 Speaker 1: likely from Harlem. Yeah, that's good, solid northern Black English. Yeah. 246 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:13,636 Speaker 2: Now you said something earlier that you didn't speak Black 247 00:13:13,636 --> 00:13:14,356 Speaker 2: English growing up. 248 00:13:14,476 --> 00:13:19,396 Speaker 1: Why not? That's deep, Malcolm. Actually, that gets into my 249 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 1: parents and what they were like, and so plenty of 250 00:13:24,436 --> 00:13:28,956 Speaker 1: black family speaking the dialect fluently. Mount Area in Philadelphia 251 00:13:28,996 --> 00:13:31,396 Speaker 1: was a very integrated neighborhood. The black people in the 252 00:13:31,436 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: neighborhood had become middle class from mostly being working class. 253 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 1: So there was plenty of Black English spoken in the neighborhood. 254 00:13:37,716 --> 00:13:40,876 Speaker 1: Close friends of mine spoke it. My mother grew up 255 00:13:40,956 --> 00:13:45,116 Speaker 1: speaking Southern Black English, but switched to a kind of 256 00:13:45,316 --> 00:13:49,836 Speaker 1: generalized suburban Northern when she moved to Philadelphia. My father 257 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:52,876 Speaker 1: spoke Philadelphia Black English. But and this is something I 258 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: really have only wrapped my head around over the past 259 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:59,756 Speaker 1: about year really thinking about it. They were not inclined 260 00:13:59,836 --> 00:14:04,236 Speaker 1: to use their vernacular around their kids. They didn't speak 261 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:06,836 Speaker 1: it to us. I remember thinking, Mom gets on the 262 00:14:06,836 --> 00:14:08,476 Speaker 1: phone with her relatives and all of a sudden, there's 263 00:14:08,516 --> 00:14:10,956 Speaker 1: this other way she has of speaking. I was trying 264 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:13,156 Speaker 1: to wrap my head around it. Whereas, to tell you 265 00:14:13,236 --> 00:14:16,436 Speaker 1: the truth, most black moms would have spoken that way, 266 00:14:16,476 --> 00:14:18,916 Speaker 1: at least some to their kids as well. And the 267 00:14:18,916 --> 00:14:21,156 Speaker 1: truth is both of my parents tried their best. They 268 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:24,356 Speaker 1: were both brilliant people. They provided a materially great existence, 269 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:27,836 Speaker 1: but they were both very closed off people in general, 270 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:31,996 Speaker 1: and that played out in terms of dialect. Then also, 271 00:14:32,196 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 1: my sister talks exactly like me. If I have a 272 00:14:34,356 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 1: weird voice, as one other person, it's my sister who's 273 00:14:36,556 --> 00:14:38,876 Speaker 1: four years younger, and she sounds just like this. So 274 00:14:38,956 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 1: it was it was both of us, and I find 275 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 1: myself thinking, sometimes we both do that. But also I'm not. 276 00:14:46,476 --> 00:14:48,476 Speaker 1: I'm not an imitator, you know, as much as I 277 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:50,836 Speaker 1: love other languages and trying to learn them and never 278 00:14:51,076 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 1: never doing it as well as I'd like to. Holly, 279 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:57,436 Speaker 1: my sister went to Spelman and came back with this 280 00:14:57,516 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 1: new repertoire. All of a sudden she could switch. She 281 00:15:00,356 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: had a kind of black English, she had the cadence, 282 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:04,756 Speaker 1: whereas I never did that. And to be honest, if 283 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:06,756 Speaker 1: I had gone to morehouse, I don't think that would 284 00:15:06,796 --> 00:15:08,996 Speaker 1: have happened. I talk the way I talk in other 285 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:11,796 Speaker 1: people imitate me, and I think that's just you know, 286 00:15:11,916 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 1: neurons or something. You know. I like the way I talk. 287 00:15:15,996 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk like someone else. But that 288 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 1: is the reason. And I wish that I had picked 289 00:15:22,356 --> 00:15:25,556 Speaker 1: it up for real, because not having that natural competence 290 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 1: means that you come off sometimes as thinking you're better 291 00:15:29,196 --> 00:15:31,116 Speaker 1: than people when really it's just that that's not in 292 00:15:31,156 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: your mouth. And I can completely understand what it would 293 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:37,956 Speaker 1: look like from another perspective, but yeah, that's it sometimes. 294 00:15:37,956 --> 00:15:40,276 Speaker 1: To be honest, I have wished that I was and 295 00:15:40,356 --> 00:15:42,316 Speaker 1: I'm not just saying this because it's you, except I am. 296 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: I wish that I was Black Canadian because I think 297 00:15:45,716 --> 00:15:48,076 Speaker 1: that's less of an issue there in terms of the 298 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:51,236 Speaker 1: place of American Black English in what it is to 299 00:15:51,276 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 1: be a black person. But that's just an idle thought. 300 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 2: I remember the first time I saw that kind of 301 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:04,756 Speaker 2: the switching as a kid in Jamaica, seeing my uncle, 302 00:16:06,116 --> 00:16:10,876 Speaker 2: you know, a brown skin Jamaican talked to us in 303 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 2: the Queen's English, and he was getting gas, had a 304 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:14,996 Speaker 2: gas pump. 305 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: That was amazing. 306 00:16:17,636 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 2: I'm maybe nine, gets out of the car and he 307 00:16:20,636 --> 00:16:22,756 Speaker 2: starts talking to the guy pumping the gas, and there's 308 00:16:22,756 --> 00:16:27,996 Speaker 2: some It wasn't just that he switched into Patuas, it 309 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 2: was that he also his manner. 310 00:16:30,236 --> 00:16:31,796 Speaker 1: Completely changed you a different person. 311 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 2: He was there. They were doing that Jamaican thing where 312 00:16:34,796 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 2: they're shouting at each other even though they're not angry, yes, 313 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:41,196 Speaker 2: which I'd never seen before. I thought, this is the 314 00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 2: coolest thing I've ever seen in my entire life. That 315 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:46,236 Speaker 2: he could go from literally Malcolm blah blah blah and 316 00:16:46,276 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 2: then boom, and it was just that kind of. 317 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 1: And that kind of trash talking thing, just like their 318 00:16:52,036 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 1: papers written about that one. Actually, yeah, that is that 319 00:16:56,036 --> 00:16:59,756 Speaker 1: is very common. That must have been wild. Yeah, especially 320 00:16:59,756 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 1: to see that big a switch, because in my case 321 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,196 Speaker 1: it was like from here to here. But with Patuas, 322 00:17:04,396 --> 00:17:07,556 Speaker 1: first he's Margaret Thatcher and then suddenly he's Bob Marley. 323 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:08,396 Speaker 1: That must have been. 324 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 2: Or my mother hearing my then I began to hear 325 00:17:12,556 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 2: my mother when she would get angry, she would lapse, 326 00:17:16,356 --> 00:17:19,116 Speaker 2: not into full on bad way. But you could hear 327 00:17:19,156 --> 00:17:22,116 Speaker 2: the Jamaican coming out of that idea as well. It's 328 00:17:22,116 --> 00:17:26,956 Speaker 2: funny because I'm making the same on some level observations 329 00:17:26,956 --> 00:17:29,676 Speaker 2: you are as a child, but I have no I 330 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:32,956 Speaker 2: what sidetracks me at that age is not how people 331 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:37,156 Speaker 2: are speaking, but how they're telling, how they're explaining things. 332 00:17:37,836 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 2: I get obsessed in the same way that you. I 333 00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:41,476 Speaker 2: think it's funny, in the same way that you got 334 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:45,076 Speaker 2: obsessed with how your people are expressing themselves. To me, 335 00:17:45,156 --> 00:17:49,516 Speaker 2: it was about we're we're gonna we're playing hearts, and 336 00:17:49,916 --> 00:17:52,036 Speaker 2: our cousin doesn't know how to play hearts, and my 337 00:17:52,076 --> 00:17:54,836 Speaker 2: brother's starts expanding hearts to my cousin. He's doing it 338 00:17:54,876 --> 00:17:59,516 Speaker 2: all wrong. That was my obsessions. I'm sick. I'm just like, why, 339 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 2: why start with the point of the game, like, what 340 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 2: are you doing? 341 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 3: Yeah? And I realized how deeply kind of and it 342 00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 3: bothered you. Oh to this day it works. 343 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:18,756 Speaker 1: I always just assumed that people were going to do 344 00:18:18,796 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 1: stuff wrong, and I would have been listening to what 345 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:22,236 Speaker 1: the grammar was. 346 00:18:22,396 --> 00:18:25,476 Speaker 2: No, no, no, I uh. If the surest way for me 347 00:18:25,556 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 2: to completely lose my cool is to read instructions that 348 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:33,556 Speaker 2: someone has written for something just like this is this 349 00:18:33,596 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 2: is I mean, come on, I want to call up 350 00:18:36,436 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 2: the company and volunteer my services. We'll be right back 351 00:18:40,076 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 2: with more of my conversation with John McCarter. I want 352 00:18:52,156 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about your and by the way, 353 00:18:56,116 --> 00:18:57,996 Speaker 2: I always find this question, if it's asked to me, 354 00:18:58,076 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 2: deeply annoying, so you don't have to answer it if 355 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:01,796 Speaker 2: you don't want to. But I wanted to talk about 356 00:19:01,836 --> 00:19:05,276 Speaker 2: your kind of place in the culture right now, which 357 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:07,276 Speaker 2: is really interesting to me. And I have a grand, 358 00:19:08,276 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 2: unified a quarter theory. 359 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:12,236 Speaker 1: I want to hear this because I don't. 360 00:19:13,156 --> 00:19:18,036 Speaker 2: Here's my theory. At any given moment, in sort of 361 00:19:18,796 --> 00:19:22,236 Speaker 2: popular culture or intellectual popular culture, there is someone who's 362 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 2: allowed to get away with saying anything. You that person. 363 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 2: I think you get to say whatever you want for 364 00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:34,476 Speaker 2: a variety of reasons, which i'd like you to unpack. 365 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:38,036 Speaker 1: Can you give me Can you give me one half 366 00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 1: of an example of what you mean? Like, I'm allowed 367 00:19:41,396 --> 00:19:42,956 Speaker 1: to say it, but no one else is. 368 00:19:44,356 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 2: As in, you wrote a beautiful was it or not bad? 369 00:19:48,316 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 2: I can't remember where you wrote it? A thing about 370 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:53,836 Speaker 2: your own experience with affirmative action, Yes, no, one else 371 00:19:53,876 --> 00:19:54,436 Speaker 2: could write that. 372 00:19:55,236 --> 00:19:55,556 Speaker 1: True. 373 00:19:57,476 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 2: You write about you in your column are constantly, in 374 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:07,916 Speaker 2: a very beautiful way, kind of setting down the rules 375 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 2: for discourse, particularly around your code switching column of yesterday, 376 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 2: like all right, not allowed to do that? You know 377 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 2: this way? 378 00:20:17,276 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 1: You must forget them the minute I write them this today? 379 00:20:20,596 --> 00:20:25,356 Speaker 1: Oh today is what's her name? The Congress from Jasmine Crockett. Yes, okay, 380 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 1: Jasmon Crockett. You said, very gently and nicely, you said 381 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:31,156 Speaker 1: to her, come on, now, you get to do that. 382 00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 1: I do you know what? 383 00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:34,636 Speaker 2: Who else can do that? 384 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:39,116 Speaker 1: What you're saying is something I'm feeling as I get 385 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:42,996 Speaker 1: a little older, because I'm pushing sixty and so I'm 386 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 1: no longer the young pup, and i feel like I've 387 00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:49,556 Speaker 1: got a certain amount of life experience, and also just 388 00:20:49,596 --> 00:20:51,796 Speaker 1: I'm beginning to come off as the kind of person 389 00:20:51,796 --> 00:20:56,116 Speaker 1: who you call sir or in the parking lot, okay, boss, 390 00:20:56,316 --> 00:20:59,596 Speaker 1: you know that sort of thing, And so I'm beginning 391 00:20:59,756 --> 00:21:04,916 Speaker 1: to take those chances to an extent with Jasmine Crockett. 392 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:07,236 Speaker 1: I will say this, I was very careful in the 393 00:21:07,276 --> 00:21:11,036 Speaker 1: wording of that because I thought, especially because she's forty 394 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 1: in a bit and I'm about to be sixty. I male, 395 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:17,036 Speaker 1: I have an imperious demeanor. I don't think that she 396 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:20,596 Speaker 1: did anything that was absolutely sinful, and so honestly, in 397 00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 1: the editing of that, we were very careful with the words, 398 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:24,476 Speaker 1: and so near the end of it, I say that 399 00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 1: her explanation for why she made fun of the man 400 00:21:27,596 --> 00:21:31,836 Speaker 1: in the wheelchair was what did I call it, I'm 401 00:21:31,876 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 1: clever but hopeless. And there was an idea that I 402 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 1: was supposed to say clever but cowardly, and I said, no, 403 00:21:40,876 --> 00:21:43,436 Speaker 1: that's too mean. I don't want to call her a coward. 404 00:21:43,596 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 1: I want to say that the explanation just doesn't work. 405 00:21:45,756 --> 00:21:47,516 Speaker 1: So I think part of it, but the fact that 406 00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:48,996 Speaker 1: I wrote that at all, I don't know if I 407 00:21:49,036 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 1: would have written that one twenty years ago, or if 408 00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:54,196 Speaker 1: I did, it would have been read as John just 409 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:56,556 Speaker 1: likes to criticize black people, and he does that every week, 410 00:21:56,596 --> 00:21:58,676 Speaker 1: when I actually do it very rarely. But I think 411 00:21:58,716 --> 00:22:01,116 Speaker 1: what you're talking about is that I'm getting a little 412 00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 1: older and therefore feel like I can say things that 413 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:08,276 Speaker 1: I couldn't when I was Coleman Hughes's age like thirty, 414 00:22:08,476 --> 00:22:10,516 Speaker 1: where if I say things even if I thought I 415 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:13,316 Speaker 1: was right, it would be you're too young, how dare you? 416 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:15,636 Speaker 1: And I really felt at the time, I need to 417 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:18,036 Speaker 1: respect my elders. I would try very hard to do that, 418 00:22:18,276 --> 00:22:22,556 Speaker 1: especially in Black American culture. Don't you don't sass your elders, 419 00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:25,836 Speaker 1: You don't sass your parents. Well, now I'm my parents, 420 00:22:26,236 --> 00:22:29,156 Speaker 1: and so I'm going to start doing some constructive sassing. 421 00:22:29,196 --> 00:22:29,996 Speaker 1: I think that's part of. 422 00:22:29,996 --> 00:22:35,876 Speaker 2: It, part of it as well. I think there's other layers. Well, 423 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 2: one is that as a linguist, as someone who pays 424 00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:43,556 Speaker 2: as much attention to language as you do, you're better 425 00:22:43,636 --> 00:22:43,956 Speaker 2: at it. 426 00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not. 427 00:22:47,596 --> 00:22:50,556 Speaker 2: By which I mean that. Just the example you just 428 00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:56,916 Speaker 2: gave on parsing the difference between cowardly and hopeless, that 429 00:22:57,396 --> 00:23:00,916 Speaker 2: someone who was not as attuned to the nuances of 430 00:23:00,996 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 2: language might have said cowardly with a quite a you know, 431 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 2: there's quite a dramatic difference in the way that would 432 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:11,356 Speaker 2: be perceived and read. Yeah, and you're but you are 433 00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:15,476 Speaker 2: professionally alert to those nuances, and that permits you a 434 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:19,236 Speaker 2: great deal more freedom. I think that most people dramatically 435 00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:24,036 Speaker 2: underestimate how important word choice is and how acutely sensitive 436 00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:26,156 Speaker 2: we are to the word the words that are used, 437 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 2: particularly if they're directed at us. I want to talk 438 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 2: about my favorite chapter. 439 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 1: In the book. What's the favorite. 440 00:23:31,036 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 2: It's the it's the chapter about you. 441 00:23:33,476 --> 00:23:37,636 Speaker 1: Thank you for not being about they and them? Okay you, Yeah, 442 00:23:37,836 --> 00:23:39,596 Speaker 1: that was the one that was the funnest to write. 443 00:23:39,636 --> 00:23:42,116 Speaker 2: It's the fun it is, so just sit to work. 444 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:46,156 Speaker 2: Explain briefly to everyone the structure of the book. 445 00:23:47,036 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 1: The book is. It's not just a book about they. 446 00:23:49,276 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 1: I mean there. I think there already is a book 447 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:54,356 Speaker 1: just about they. I couldn't have sustained anyone's attention for 448 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 1: that long. It's each pronoun So there's I, there's you, 449 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:00,356 Speaker 1: there's he, she, it, there's we, and there's a. So 450 00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 1: that's seven chapters. Notice that it's a compact and the 451 00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:05,516 Speaker 1: idea is to give the history of each one of 452 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:08,996 Speaker 1: those little words, and then to discuss some controversy that 453 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:12,796 Speaker 1: is connected with them. We kind of resist controversy. That 454 00:24:12,876 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 1: chapter was a challenge because I was thinking, nobody fights 455 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:17,716 Speaker 1: over week. But I got a chapter out of it anyway. 456 00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:20,956 Speaker 1: But that was the point. And of course, when I 457 00:24:21,036 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 1: was writing it in twenty twenty three on a sun 458 00:24:24,356 --> 00:24:28,556 Speaker 1: porch Upstate, I was thinking ha ha, happy linguistic pronouns, 459 00:24:28,596 --> 00:24:32,156 Speaker 1: because the book before this was called wok Racism, and 460 00:24:32,236 --> 00:24:36,756 Speaker 1: it was a bourbon fueled, angry little screed that needed 461 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:39,196 Speaker 1: to be written in twenty twenty. But it's this book 462 00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:41,676 Speaker 1: where I'm screaming on every page, and books like that 463 00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:44,076 Speaker 1: are not fun to write. So after that was over, 464 00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:45,836 Speaker 1: I thought, I want to do one of the happy 465 00:24:45,916 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: language books, and I thought, what about the pronouns. The 466 00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:50,316 Speaker 1: last thing I was thinking was all of this debate 467 00:24:50,356 --> 00:24:52,676 Speaker 1: we're having now about TRANSI identity, et cetera. I was 468 00:24:52,676 --> 00:24:55,276 Speaker 1: just writing about pronouns. So the book has fallen into 469 00:24:55,356 --> 00:24:58,356 Speaker 1: a different atmosphere than I was expecting. But really it's 470 00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:02,196 Speaker 1: just me enjoying pronouns. Like in Nine Nasty Words, I 471 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:04,396 Speaker 1: enjoyed profanity. That's what this book is. 472 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:09,196 Speaker 2: But you so tell us, tell us the problem with you. 473 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 1: You is a problem. I don't mean that you all 474 00:25:11,476 --> 00:25:14,316 Speaker 1: are a problem. Oh there was some Black English too, 475 00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:19,076 Speaker 1: We will get there. That was silly. So it used 476 00:25:19,116 --> 00:25:22,876 Speaker 1: to be yeah, exactly exactly, Thou Malcolm as opposed to 477 00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:25,756 Speaker 1: you in the audience. That's how English is supposed to be. 478 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 1: Thou art sitting in a chair. You are sitting. To 479 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:31,276 Speaker 1: be honest, with the lighting, I can't tell what you're 480 00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:33,356 Speaker 1: sitting in, but I presume they are chairs, and so 481 00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:37,636 Speaker 1: thou and you. You're supposed to have singular and then 482 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:40,956 Speaker 1: a plural one. In early Middle English and before there 483 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:43,676 Speaker 1: was a duel. So if it's just you too, then 484 00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 1: it was yeat and so thou, yeat and you, And 485 00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:50,876 Speaker 1: then they had case forms thou if it's subject, thee. 486 00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:53,956 Speaker 1: If it's an object, you was the object form. Ye 487 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:57,036 Speaker 1: was the subject form like here yea and then yeat 488 00:25:57,196 --> 00:25:59,636 Speaker 1: didn't do that, but the possessive of yeat. If you 489 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: wanted to say, you two's book, ink book, get that 490 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:06,596 Speaker 1: and so got it wrong. No, ink was the object 491 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:09,636 Speaker 1: form yeat and then ink. So I've done it all 492 00:26:09,676 --> 00:26:12,236 Speaker 1: for you too, my children, I've done it all for ink. 493 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:14,836 Speaker 1: Inkor was the possessive. So you had all of these 494 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:18,436 Speaker 1: U forms and everything's chugging along, and today all we 495 00:26:18,476 --> 00:26:20,756 Speaker 1: have is you, not even ye and you, just you. 496 00:26:21,316 --> 00:26:24,356 Speaker 1: Thou is gone, know thee just you? It all just 497 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:26,356 Speaker 1: falls away now is the one we miss. It's like 498 00:26:26,356 --> 00:26:28,756 Speaker 1: I had a disease. Yeah, that was the one we miss. 499 00:26:28,836 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 1: We need thou, we need that we need it back 500 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:34,916 Speaker 1: right now, but now we can't. We can't do it now. 501 00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 2: So let's convince us about why we need to have 502 00:26:39,956 --> 00:26:40,516 Speaker 2: thou back. 503 00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 1: Well, if you think about it, if you're going from 504 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:47,276 Speaker 1: English to almost any language you're likely to learn. Notice 505 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 1: the first thing you learn is that there's something like 506 00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:52,956 Speaker 1: dot and then there's some plural form. You never learned 507 00:26:52,956 --> 00:26:55,076 Speaker 1: that the word for you is the same both in 508 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:56,636 Speaker 1: the singular. If there's a chart in front of you, 509 00:26:56,796 --> 00:26:59,876 Speaker 1: the singular and the plural. That's not how languages work. 510 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 1: And so all over Europe this is preserved. This difference 511 00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 1: is preserved. There are different spheres of influence that it 512 00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 1: has in different languages and at different times. But if 513 00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 1: it's Rush, it's supposed to be THEE and lie. You 514 00:27:11,276 --> 00:27:13,516 Speaker 1: don't have lee used for everything. You don't have THEE 515 00:27:13,596 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: use for everything. English is different in that way. English 516 00:27:16,876 --> 00:27:21,636 Speaker 1: is a very odd language in certain corners of its being. 517 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:24,876 Speaker 1: And to tell the truth, it's it's obscure. We need 518 00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:27,356 Speaker 1: a singular versus a plural form. And we try to 519 00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:30,836 Speaker 1: create a plural form by saying y'all or use or 520 00:27:30,916 --> 00:27:34,756 Speaker 1: yen's and we're told that that's just funny. It's just slang. 521 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 1: It smells like fish or bubblegum or marijuana. It's not 522 00:27:38,676 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 1: it's not a real word. And yet all we're trying 523 00:27:41,516 --> 00:27:43,716 Speaker 1: to do is be a normal language. 524 00:27:44,236 --> 00:27:48,116 Speaker 2: So what's your preference here? There's two there's two parallel 525 00:27:48,156 --> 00:27:49,756 Speaker 2: strends of argument here, and I want to figure out 526 00:27:49,756 --> 00:27:52,716 Speaker 2: which side you're on. So you originally is the plural, 527 00:27:53,636 --> 00:27:57,716 Speaker 2: that is the singular singular. What has happened is that 528 00:27:58,116 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 2: you has come to encompass both, and we've developed these 529 00:28:02,036 --> 00:28:08,556 Speaker 2: colloquial forms y'all, et cetera, to take up the plural position, 530 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:12,596 Speaker 2: and we we've moved you to the singular. Do you 531 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,796 Speaker 2: think you should remain the singular or should you be 532 00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:17,716 Speaker 2: moved back into the plural position? 533 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:22,436 Speaker 1: I understand. I'd like to see thou come back. I 534 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 1: think we need thou. There was nothing wrong with it. 535 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:29,156 Speaker 1: It's just like German, do we need thou? The problem 536 00:28:29,196 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 1: is that Thou sounds antique. Thou sounds like somebody in 537 00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:35,236 Speaker 1: a periwig who's about to die of yellow fever because 538 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:37,756 Speaker 1: it's so far back. But if we bring in you, 539 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: then we have to accept y'all as legitimate, or you 540 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: guys or use And that's really tough too, because of 541 00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: the aforesaid odors of those words. 542 00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 2: Why did I was thinking of? 543 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:49,436 Speaker 1: You know? 544 00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:52,876 Speaker 2: So if someone wrote the hymn how great Thou art today, 545 00:28:52,876 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 2: it would be how great you. 546 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:54,836 Speaker 1: Are, how great you are? 547 00:28:54,996 --> 00:28:59,436 Speaker 2: And say it's not it's not as good God to thee, 548 00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:04,956 Speaker 2: how great you are you are? It doesn't work. 549 00:29:05,636 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 1: That was great for art, yeah, but art thou. But 550 00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:12,836 Speaker 1: it would be hard to use out on the street, 551 00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:15,396 Speaker 1: I think, do I say it in the book? No, 552 00:29:15,476 --> 00:29:19,356 Speaker 1: that was about something else. You could not say thou naked? 553 00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:22,716 Speaker 1: You know it just it wouldn't seem quite right. It 554 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:26,156 Speaker 1: was I have to use you. 555 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 2: But no, you've said the problems with both positions. But 556 00:29:29,676 --> 00:29:31,076 Speaker 2: come on, you're not answering my question. 557 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:33,796 Speaker 1: Try if you had to. 558 00:29:33,916 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 2: If I make you languages are and you get to 559 00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 2: push you to the singular a pro position and either 560 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:48,956 Speaker 2: reinstate thou or or establish use and y'all, which what 561 00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:50,036 Speaker 2: which move were you making? 562 00:29:50,196 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 1: If I were the czar, like if I could do 563 00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:57,556 Speaker 1: an executive order, and yeah, I would, you would be 564 00:29:57,636 --> 00:30:00,396 Speaker 1: in the singular and I would enforce that you all 565 00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:03,156 Speaker 1: was more widely accepted. I would say that the Wall 566 00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 1: Street Journal has to start allowing you all, and it 567 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 1: has to start being taught in school with a teacher 568 00:30:08,276 --> 00:30:10,716 Speaker 1: with a stick at a black That's that's the way 569 00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:13,396 Speaker 1: I would do it Already. When I teach about language, 570 00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:15,036 Speaker 1: I say it's going to be I U he she 571 00:30:15,756 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 1: we y'all. They I always say that because you need 572 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:20,196 Speaker 1: you need a y'all. Yeah. That center. 573 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:21,796 Speaker 2: One of the things that it had not occurred to 574 00:30:21,796 --> 00:30:24,836 Speaker 2: me until I read that chapter was that in the South, 575 00:30:26,116 --> 00:30:30,236 Speaker 2: y'all is only is the plural, that is to say, 576 00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:32,956 Speaker 2: and if it is, if it's addressed to a person 577 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,156 Speaker 2: you're invoking. Isn't that nice to see in others? I 578 00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:38,636 Speaker 2: hadn't realized it. So if I go to the South, 579 00:30:38,676 --> 00:30:41,956 Speaker 2: then I say, well, ye, that's what y'all think, and 580 00:30:42,036 --> 00:30:44,956 Speaker 2: I mean just you, Yeah, I've committed a violation. 581 00:30:45,476 --> 00:30:48,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, because they don't use it to mean the singular. 582 00:30:48,156 --> 00:30:50,796 Speaker 1: But when they say it's one person, you're at a 583 00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:54,436 Speaker 1: seven eleven and somebody says, y'all come back, that doesn't 584 00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:58,116 Speaker 1: mean y'all that one person right there. It means it's 585 00:30:58,116 --> 00:31:00,356 Speaker 1: implying that there's somebody out there in the car or 586 00:31:00,396 --> 00:31:04,276 Speaker 1: something which is is the following. It's a politeness strategy. 587 00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:07,316 Speaker 1: So with du and VU, you can address a single 588 00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: person as VU as if they're people, and so you're 589 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:13,676 Speaker 1: not hitting the person like this. If you say y'all 590 00:31:13,716 --> 00:31:16,676 Speaker 1: come back now, you're kind of saying voo come back now, 591 00:31:16,756 --> 00:31:19,636 Speaker 1: You're you're taking away the directness to say you you 592 00:31:19,676 --> 00:31:21,796 Speaker 1: one individual, I hope you come back and buy another 593 00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:25,636 Speaker 1: slim gym. It's a little direct as opposed to y'all 594 00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: come back. It's a very courtly thing that y'all. 595 00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:31,196 Speaker 2: I want to go back to something you said. Well, 596 00:31:31,236 --> 00:31:35,316 Speaker 2: we need to distinguish between the plural and singular you. 597 00:31:36,156 --> 00:31:38,916 Speaker 2: But what problem does it create for as when we can't. 598 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:41,516 Speaker 2: Is it just a lack of specificity. 599 00:31:41,796 --> 00:31:44,756 Speaker 1: It's just that you need to pause and clean something up. 600 00:31:45,116 --> 00:31:47,596 Speaker 1: And you'd rather not have to imagine never having to 601 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:49,436 Speaker 1: say I don't mean you all, I mean just you, 602 00:31:49,796 --> 00:31:51,876 Speaker 1: or I mean just you not you all over there. 603 00:31:52,356 --> 00:31:56,636 Speaker 1: There are larger tragedies, but nevertheless, that is one of 604 00:31:56,676 --> 00:32:00,396 Speaker 1: those things where oh, that is one of those things 605 00:32:00,636 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 1: where we have we have a ding like for example, 606 00:32:03,276 --> 00:32:06,156 Speaker 1: in French, you're driving a rental car and you're in 607 00:32:06,196 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 1: a big hurry and all the other cars are parked 608 00:32:08,516 --> 00:32:11,356 Speaker 1: in a line, and you pull into a space and 609 00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:13,356 Speaker 1: you don't really park it right, and the butt of 610 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:15,516 Speaker 1: the car is kind of pushing out, so you run 611 00:32:15,556 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: down into the little hut and you say, I'm sorry, 612 00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:20,636 Speaker 1: but my car is sticking out. There's no way to 613 00:32:20,676 --> 00:32:22,876 Speaker 1: put it that way. In French, nothing can stick out. 614 00:32:22,956 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 1: You can say I didn't park properly, you can say 615 00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 1: that the row is uneven, but if you try to 616 00:32:27,716 --> 00:32:30,556 Speaker 1: say the car is sticking out and I'm sorry, they 617 00:32:30,556 --> 00:32:32,716 Speaker 1: don't have it. Now. Does that mean that it's hard 618 00:32:32,756 --> 00:32:34,716 Speaker 1: to be French? I doubt it, but it would be 619 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: nice if they had that word. It would be nice 620 00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:38,556 Speaker 1: if we had a thou, or if we could use 621 00:32:38,876 --> 00:32:40,876 Speaker 1: y'all in the same way. Yeah. 622 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 2: So what I would like to see is the country 623 00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:46,956 Speaker 2: divided on this question, so there's a there would be 624 00:32:47,076 --> 00:32:49,556 Speaker 2: Thou districts, and then they would be y'all. 625 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:50,756 Speaker 1: That would be adorable. 626 00:32:50,876 --> 00:32:55,716 Speaker 2: And then, because I don't like y'all to be honest, 627 00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 2: I do like thou. 628 00:32:56,716 --> 00:32:56,996 Speaker 1: Huh. 629 00:32:57,116 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 2: I would like Thou to come. 630 00:32:58,356 --> 00:33:04,876 Speaker 1: Back, Thou, Thou art, Thou art reading. It just sounds 631 00:33:04,916 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: like somebody who died one hundred and fifty years ago, 632 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 1: but I could get used to it. 633 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:13,316 Speaker 2: Is that This is another interesting language question, though, is 634 00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:15,676 Speaker 2: that because is that going to be as true for 635 00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:19,156 Speaker 2: our children? Well, our children had the same associations with Thou. 636 00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:23,876 Speaker 2: I mean once, why do I think I sang that him? 637 00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:26,076 Speaker 2: For a reason? I grew up singing that him all 638 00:33:26,076 --> 00:33:29,636 Speaker 2: of my associations without biblical. If we move into us 639 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:35,756 Speaker 2: into a world in which people's association with religious practice 640 00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:39,676 Speaker 2: is vanishing, then doesn't that free us up to go 641 00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:42,836 Speaker 2: back and pick up a lot of that stuff. 642 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:46,756 Speaker 1: It's possible. It's funny you say religious because I forgot something, 643 00:33:46,796 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 1: which is that I went to a Quaker school, Friends 644 00:33:49,436 --> 00:33:52,796 Speaker 1: Select in Philadelphia in the late seventies, and back then 645 00:33:52,956 --> 00:33:56,916 Speaker 1: there was the last cohort of teachers, Quaker teachers who 646 00:33:56,956 --> 00:34:01,916 Speaker 1: were still using THEE and thy and in natural speech, 647 00:34:01,956 --> 00:34:04,596 Speaker 1: the ones who were super Quaker as in dressing Quaker. 648 00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:06,716 Speaker 1: And I remember there was this one teacher who would 649 00:34:06,756 --> 00:34:08,716 Speaker 1: come and, you know, look at your paper and say, 650 00:34:08,796 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 1: don't get to put thy name on thy paper. And 651 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:14,036 Speaker 1: he meant it straight, he didn't mean it ironically, And 652 00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:16,076 Speaker 1: you know part of why I don't like that, And 653 00:34:16,116 --> 00:34:17,756 Speaker 1: I never thought about this. You're making me think about 654 00:34:17,796 --> 00:34:20,116 Speaker 1: a lot of things I haven't thought about. Because one 655 00:34:20,196 --> 00:34:22,676 Speaker 1: day he decided to take a long trip in a 656 00:34:22,716 --> 00:34:26,036 Speaker 1: canoe and he happily, you know, pulled out into the 657 00:34:26,036 --> 00:34:28,036 Speaker 1: Delaware River, and you was talking about when he was 658 00:34:28,036 --> 00:34:29,636 Speaker 1: going to come back, and no one ever saw that 659 00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:34,076 Speaker 1: man again. And I must admit that I associate thou 660 00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:39,596 Speaker 1: with that man, and that is much to arbitrary. So 661 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:45,356 Speaker 1: I can't laughing at this man's demise, but I need 662 00:34:45,396 --> 00:34:48,156 Speaker 1: to stop that. I would enjoy their being thou, but 663 00:34:48,156 --> 00:34:50,916 Speaker 1: I'm trying to imagine it imposed on a whole society, 664 00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:53,676 Speaker 1: and I cannot see my ten and thirteen year old 665 00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:57,436 Speaker 1: feeling differently about it. But then again, there are aspects 666 00:34:57,436 --> 00:34:59,436 Speaker 1: of them that I may never know. I'll ask them 667 00:34:59,436 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 1: next time I see them. 668 00:35:00,636 --> 00:35:03,516 Speaker 2: And what about the you mentioned this in I believe 669 00:35:03,636 --> 00:35:08,196 Speaker 2: in passing the English use of one, you do yes one? 670 00:35:08,196 --> 00:35:12,836 Speaker 2: The English uppercrust resolve this problem by if I say 671 00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:15,276 Speaker 2: one in the eight way that English one doesn't think 672 00:35:15,316 --> 00:35:16,036 Speaker 2: that does one? 673 00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:16,476 Speaker 1: Right? 674 00:35:16,556 --> 00:35:19,236 Speaker 2: What am I doing? Am I explicitly freeing up you 675 00:35:19,356 --> 00:35:20,676 Speaker 2: to be in the plural form? Is that? 676 00:35:20,716 --> 00:35:24,756 Speaker 1: What I'm doing? Well? In that case, we use you colloquially, well, 677 00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:26,716 Speaker 1: why suddenly can I not talk? And he had a 678 00:35:26,756 --> 00:35:30,636 Speaker 1: stroke that night? You colloquially, but we would actually say 679 00:35:30,636 --> 00:35:32,756 Speaker 1: you can't do that, can you? And so you gets 680 00:35:32,796 --> 00:35:36,756 Speaker 1: dragged even into that one usage which ended up replacing 681 00:35:36,796 --> 00:35:39,236 Speaker 1: it was originally a word mon, which was not man, 682 00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:41,796 Speaker 1: but it was mon, and then mon just dropped away. 683 00:35:41,836 --> 00:35:45,236 Speaker 1: Everything drops away in English like autumn leaves for some reason. 684 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:47,876 Speaker 1: But you have the one, and you're saying, does that allow. 685 00:35:47,956 --> 00:35:51,596 Speaker 2: Exactly why they're doing that? Why why does the English 686 00:35:52,036 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 2: upper class use one instead of you? 687 00:35:54,436 --> 00:35:57,036 Speaker 1: Because you was overstretched, because not only is it used 688 00:35:57,036 --> 00:35:58,996 Speaker 1: in the singular and the plural, but you also use 689 00:35:59,036 --> 00:36:03,796 Speaker 1: it for this indefinite. Real Germanic languages, normal European languages 690 00:36:04,076 --> 00:36:07,556 Speaker 1: have some dedicated pronoun, as we call it, for the indefinite. 691 00:36:07,636 --> 00:36:09,516 Speaker 1: That's one thing that a pronoun should do. That book 692 00:36:09,516 --> 00:36:12,596 Speaker 1: shold have an extra chapter. In Old English it was mon, 693 00:36:12,996 --> 00:36:16,236 Speaker 1: then mon shortened to muh, and so you would say, 694 00:36:16,516 --> 00:36:18,516 Speaker 1: you know, you gotta do it, and you would say, 695 00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:21,156 Speaker 1: muh gotta do it. That's not very accurate Middle English, 696 00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:24,196 Speaker 1: but you get my point. And then it just that 697 00:36:24,316 --> 00:36:27,676 Speaker 1: muh flew away and you ended up being dragged in 698 00:36:27,756 --> 00:36:30,156 Speaker 1: for that too. We work that little word so hard 699 00:36:30,436 --> 00:36:32,876 Speaker 1: it's a miracle that we don't trip over our linguistic 700 00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:36,196 Speaker 1: shoelaces with it more. But languages aren't usually like that. 701 00:36:36,236 --> 00:36:38,556 Speaker 1: There's one I know of in New Guinea. It's called barrack, 702 00:36:38,836 --> 00:36:41,196 Speaker 1: and all they have is I we than you. And 703 00:36:41,236 --> 00:36:43,596 Speaker 1: then there's one word that means he she it, and 704 00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:46,316 Speaker 1: they one word like quack. It's not quack, but it's 705 00:36:46,356 --> 00:36:49,636 Speaker 1: just one thing. But we're more like that than we 706 00:36:49,676 --> 00:36:52,596 Speaker 1: are like the European languages that were actually related whips. 707 00:36:52,596 --> 00:36:54,156 Speaker 2: It's sorry to be a dog with a bone here, 708 00:36:54,196 --> 00:36:56,756 Speaker 2: But why don't we all use the English. 709 00:36:56,396 --> 00:37:00,116 Speaker 1: One in order to give you a break? 710 00:37:00,676 --> 00:37:03,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, because if its says or to give one a break. 711 00:37:06,116 --> 00:37:09,076 Speaker 1: But we can't because if you use one in that way, 712 00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:12,236 Speaker 1: you sound like you have a big mustachio and you 713 00:37:12,316 --> 00:37:14,996 Speaker 1: walk with a cane and you're in black and white. 714 00:37:15,356 --> 00:37:17,756 Speaker 1: In an old movie played by an actor named c 715 00:37:17,956 --> 00:37:21,956 Speaker 1: Aubrey Smith, one mustn't do that. It's too high. 716 00:37:22,396 --> 00:37:24,356 Speaker 2: As a kid, we would make fun of this because 717 00:37:25,396 --> 00:37:27,756 Speaker 2: my father would. I think I think he reduced this 718 00:37:27,836 --> 00:37:31,476 Speaker 2: locution and that he abandoned it because you're trapped once 719 00:37:31,516 --> 00:37:35,436 Speaker 2: you start with the one. One one doesn't think that 720 00:37:35,556 --> 00:37:38,156 Speaker 2: one should do that does one? And then you realize 721 00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:40,836 Speaker 2: this is an endless stream of ones in your future. 722 00:37:41,236 --> 00:37:44,996 Speaker 1: Or Fats Waller saying one never knows, do one? But 723 00:37:45,116 --> 00:37:48,316 Speaker 1: that was arch he was. He's saying that while he's 724 00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:51,356 Speaker 1: knocking back the gin. That was funny. In his real life, 725 00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:53,916 Speaker 1: he certainly wouldn't have said, you know, one never knows, 726 00:37:54,236 --> 00:37:57,996 Speaker 1: and so one, for arbitrary reasons is marked, and so 727 00:37:58,236 --> 00:38:01,116 Speaker 1: it has that upper crust meaning, and most of us 728 00:38:01,436 --> 00:38:04,676 Speaker 1: our only upper crust on occasion, and so we need 729 00:38:04,716 --> 00:38:07,716 Speaker 1: something more casual. And it ends up being yeah, poor 730 00:38:07,796 --> 00:38:09,076 Speaker 1: little you all the time. 731 00:38:09,236 --> 00:38:15,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a heartbreaking chapter. It's we'll be right back 732 00:38:15,916 --> 00:38:32,476 Speaker 2: with more of my conversation with John mccorter. We have questions. 733 00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:34,716 Speaker 2: Some of these questions are really good. 734 00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:37,116 Speaker 1: The questions are always fun. 735 00:38:37,316 --> 00:38:39,836 Speaker 2: How does English compare with other languages in terms of 736 00:38:39,916 --> 00:38:43,956 Speaker 2: words on the move, the shifting of words meaning over time. 737 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:47,756 Speaker 1: Words are on the move. That was the title of 738 00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:50,796 Speaker 1: one of my books. Actually, words are on the move 739 00:38:50,836 --> 00:38:53,116 Speaker 1: all the time in all languages. Some of them are 740 00:38:53,116 --> 00:38:55,716 Speaker 1: moving faster than others. But there's no such thing as 741 00:38:55,716 --> 00:38:58,716 Speaker 1: a language where the words just stay where they are, 742 00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:01,276 Speaker 1: And it can be hard to process that the words 743 00:39:01,316 --> 00:39:03,556 Speaker 1: are on the move because it usually not always, but 744 00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:07,956 Speaker 1: usually happens very slowly. But words meanings are always kind 745 00:39:07,996 --> 00:39:13,956 Speaker 1: of morphing. Obnoxious used to mean vulnerable to harm. And 746 00:39:13,996 --> 00:39:17,676 Speaker 1: so don't render yourself obnoxious by wearing too few clothes 747 00:39:18,076 --> 00:39:22,716 Speaker 1: to the jousting tournament, or that's not the you take 748 00:39:22,756 --> 00:39:26,396 Speaker 1: my point. So it only came to mean noxious because 749 00:39:26,436 --> 00:39:29,196 Speaker 1: it sounded like noxious, and so we now use it 750 00:39:29,196 --> 00:39:31,476 Speaker 1: to mean that. If you look in a grammar guide 751 00:39:31,476 --> 00:39:34,476 Speaker 1: in about nineteen hundred, there's always some person, the kind 752 00:39:34,476 --> 00:39:37,196 Speaker 1: of person who says one and has that mustache, who 753 00:39:37,236 --> 00:39:40,396 Speaker 1: is complaining. People are using obnoxious to mean annoying, when 754 00:39:40,436 --> 00:39:43,556 Speaker 1: really it's supposed to mean subject to harm. Sniff sniff. 755 00:39:43,796 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to deal with this. This is a 756 00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:48,436 Speaker 1: sign of the lack of educator. And so that is 757 00:39:48,476 --> 00:39:51,756 Speaker 1: what happens to all words. And that's true in Japanese, Hungarian, Tahitian. 758 00:39:51,796 --> 00:39:53,436 Speaker 1: There's no language where that's not happening. 759 00:39:53,676 --> 00:39:55,156 Speaker 2: Someone would show me. I don't know if it's true 760 00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:58,956 Speaker 2: as a Canadian that in Quebec. The French that is 761 00:39:58,996 --> 00:40:03,836 Speaker 2: spoken is archaic French. So why is Quebecua French not 762 00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:07,596 Speaker 2: moving at the same pace as French French. So that 763 00:40:07,636 --> 00:40:11,996 Speaker 2: does suggest a different different languages move at different rates. 764 00:40:12,956 --> 00:40:15,716 Speaker 1: That's a very good question, and the answer to it 765 00:40:15,796 --> 00:40:20,476 Speaker 1: is that Parisian French is one thing, the French of Quebec, 766 00:40:20,516 --> 00:40:23,356 Speaker 1: and it's actually very similar to Cajun French is a 767 00:40:23,396 --> 00:40:27,476 Speaker 1: different It is a different grouping of dialects, and so 768 00:40:27,516 --> 00:40:30,876 Speaker 1: you can say that these things are older. But the 769 00:40:30,916 --> 00:40:33,516 Speaker 1: thing is that those dialects have changed a great deal 770 00:40:33,916 --> 00:40:36,236 Speaker 1: since they were moved over to Quebec. And the Quebec 771 00:40:36,316 --> 00:40:39,156 Speaker 1: dialect is very different than what it would have been 772 00:40:39,276 --> 00:40:42,276 Speaker 1: in say, the late sixteen hundreds and the seventeen hundreds. 773 00:40:42,276 --> 00:40:44,636 Speaker 1: It's just that you can still see the likenesses. It's 774 00:40:44,676 --> 00:40:47,996 Speaker 1: not that Quebec stayed the wall. This was and so 775 00:40:48,036 --> 00:40:51,076 Speaker 1: all languages move along. And the truth is, I have 776 00:40:51,156 --> 00:40:55,276 Speaker 1: not done a study of the Jual spoken in for example, Montreal. 777 00:40:55,556 --> 00:40:57,836 Speaker 1: I'm sure that that variety has changed more in the 778 00:40:57,876 --> 00:41:02,316 Speaker 1: past three hundred years than French standard French in Paris, 779 00:41:02,396 --> 00:41:06,276 Speaker 1: because written languages change more slowly. So if a language 780 00:41:06,276 --> 00:41:08,756 Speaker 1: is just allowed to do what it wants to do. 781 00:41:09,236 --> 00:41:12,396 Speaker 1: Some language in a rainforest spoken by indigenous people, it's 782 00:41:12,436 --> 00:41:17,236 Speaker 1: never written down. That language moves along considerably, such that 783 00:41:17,316 --> 00:41:19,396 Speaker 1: you might even have a little bit of a problem 784 00:41:19,476 --> 00:41:22,676 Speaker 1: understanding your great great grandparents. Once it's on the page 785 00:41:23,076 --> 00:41:25,316 Speaker 1: and your brain is kind of on writing, as I 786 00:41:25,356 --> 00:41:27,756 Speaker 1: put it, and you think that the real language is written, 787 00:41:28,116 --> 00:41:30,836 Speaker 1: then it tends to slow language change down. So what 788 00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:34,316 Speaker 1: we know is how language changes where when they the 789 00:41:34,396 --> 00:41:37,276 Speaker 1: new they comes in, we're thinking, good lord, what happened? 790 00:41:37,836 --> 00:41:40,916 Speaker 1: That would not shock people as much if this were 791 00:41:40,916 --> 00:41:44,916 Speaker 1: an unwritten language. Language changes very quickly until it's yoked 792 00:41:44,956 --> 00:41:47,196 Speaker 1: to the page, which is true of only about two 793 00:41:47,276 --> 00:41:50,156 Speaker 1: hundred of the seven thousand languages that there are the 794 00:41:50,236 --> 00:41:52,556 Speaker 1: idea that you think of the language in writing, and 795 00:41:52,556 --> 00:41:54,476 Speaker 1: then you think of speaking as just a sloppy way 796 00:41:54,516 --> 00:41:56,396 Speaker 1: of how it's done on the page. That's only a 797 00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:59,156 Speaker 1: very few languages, and we happen to be speaking one 798 00:41:59,436 --> 00:42:03,076 Speaker 1: normal human language gets to mind its own business, and 799 00:42:03,196 --> 00:42:05,116 Speaker 1: so it's faster for them. 800 00:42:05,156 --> 00:42:08,236 Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on Black American English being adopted 801 00:42:08,236 --> 00:42:11,636 Speaker 2: by younger generations in the slang they use. I'm assuming 802 00:42:11,676 --> 00:42:15,676 Speaker 2: this question is about by younger and in some cases 803 00:42:15,716 --> 00:42:17,356 Speaker 2: non black generations. 804 00:42:17,636 --> 00:42:20,516 Speaker 1: I think it's great, and I know that there is 805 00:42:20,556 --> 00:42:23,916 Speaker 1: a strain of thought that says that non black people 806 00:42:23,996 --> 00:42:28,756 Speaker 1: are stealing Black English features and appropriating them and that 807 00:42:28,996 --> 00:42:32,036 Speaker 1: there should be a line. But for one, there could 808 00:42:32,076 --> 00:42:35,996 Speaker 1: never be that line. That line couldn't happen, especially with 809 00:42:36,076 --> 00:42:38,476 Speaker 1: the mainstreaming of hip hop, and it's getting to the 810 00:42:38,476 --> 00:42:41,596 Speaker 1: point where you can be a thoroughly mature person and 811 00:42:41,636 --> 00:42:45,916 Speaker 1: not really remember when rap was listened to by basically 812 00:42:45,956 --> 00:42:48,596 Speaker 1: all kids. That happened really in the nineties. But once 813 00:42:48,636 --> 00:42:51,076 Speaker 1: you've got that and you've got that music in people's ears, 814 00:42:51,596 --> 00:42:53,716 Speaker 1: and just in general, I think that it's a sign 815 00:42:53,876 --> 00:42:56,476 Speaker 1: that there is less of a color line than there 816 00:42:56,556 --> 00:42:58,556 Speaker 1: used to be, and we all know that we still 817 00:42:58,556 --> 00:43:01,196 Speaker 1: have work to do. But there was a different time. 818 00:43:01,476 --> 00:43:04,276 Speaker 1: There was nineteen fifty and then there was nineteen eighty, 819 00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:07,436 Speaker 1: which was very different from today. And I think that 820 00:43:07,716 --> 00:43:11,956 Speaker 1: this business of supposing that non black people aren't going 821 00:43:12,036 --> 00:43:14,516 Speaker 1: to borrow what is probably the most vibrant slang in 822 00:43:14,556 --> 00:43:17,676 Speaker 1: the United States, it will never happen. It's actually a 823 00:43:17,676 --> 00:43:20,436 Speaker 1: good sign that it is happening, and it really is 824 00:43:20,476 --> 00:43:21,836 Speaker 1: at the point where if you're going to look at 825 00:43:21,836 --> 00:43:25,396 Speaker 1: how modern English is changing, which is mostly the words, 826 00:43:25,676 --> 00:43:30,396 Speaker 1: two times out of three it comes from either black 827 00:43:29,956 --> 00:43:35,596 Speaker 1: black slang or gay black slang. That's a major source 828 00:43:35,956 --> 00:43:37,956 Speaker 1: of our new words. And really it's a word I 829 00:43:37,956 --> 00:43:42,516 Speaker 1: try to avoid two words holistic because it just makes 830 00:43:42,556 --> 00:43:45,916 Speaker 1: everybody happy to hear the word holistic and also the 831 00:43:45,956 --> 00:43:48,836 Speaker 1: word dynamic. It's dynamic. What the hell does that mean? 832 00:43:49,076 --> 00:43:52,516 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that black English jumping into mainstream 833 00:43:52,556 --> 00:43:56,916 Speaker 1: English is quite dynamic, and I enjoy watching it. So yeah, 834 00:43:56,916 --> 00:43:58,956 Speaker 1: I'm not giving the right answer because I know there 835 00:43:58,956 --> 00:44:02,276 Speaker 1: are people who think that it's appropriation. That's complicated though, 836 00:44:02,276 --> 00:44:06,276 Speaker 1: and I think that's an over application of the appropriation concept. 837 00:44:06,316 --> 00:44:07,916 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, we have. 838 00:44:07,876 --> 00:44:10,436 Speaker 2: To end sadly and ask you one nice question, and 839 00:44:10,476 --> 00:44:12,876 Speaker 2: that is one of my it's my favorite question for 840 00:44:12,916 --> 00:44:18,556 Speaker 2: someone like you. Let's imagine you were made language are 841 00:44:19,556 --> 00:44:24,476 Speaker 2: of America with absolute powers. I want you to tell 842 00:44:24,516 --> 00:44:31,316 Speaker 2: me the the the three language fixes you would impose 843 00:44:31,356 --> 00:44:35,076 Speaker 2: on all of us. We've done you, we want you 844 00:44:35,116 --> 00:44:37,316 Speaker 2: want y'all, We've given that to you. I want three 845 00:44:37,356 --> 00:44:38,516 Speaker 2: new ones and then we're done. 846 00:44:40,316 --> 00:44:42,876 Speaker 1: I want people to stop saying it is what it is, 847 00:44:43,236 --> 00:44:48,556 Speaker 1: because I find that the chilliest, most dismissive expression that's 848 00:44:48,596 --> 00:44:53,396 Speaker 1: got the stop. There's something, there's something pickier. You can't 849 00:44:53,436 --> 00:44:56,796 Speaker 1: just walk into this Roman start yelling. That's how the 850 00:44:56,836 --> 00:45:00,676 Speaker 1: sentence should be. You can't simply walk into this. You 851 00:45:00,716 --> 00:45:04,716 Speaker 1: can't just walk But everybody says you just can't walk 852 00:45:04,756 --> 00:45:08,756 Speaker 1: into this roman start yelling. That is now ordinary American 853 00:45:08,756 --> 00:45:10,636 Speaker 1: and English, and I have no right to have any 854 00:45:10,636 --> 00:45:12,916 Speaker 1: problem with it, but it's it's kind of like you 855 00:45:13,316 --> 00:45:16,156 Speaker 1: wanting the order in the monopoly directions. It doesn't make 856 00:45:16,196 --> 00:45:19,436 Speaker 1: any sense. It's you can't just walk in, but people 857 00:45:19,476 --> 00:45:21,956 Speaker 1: say just can't all the time. There was an episode 858 00:45:21,956 --> 00:45:24,076 Speaker 1: of The Lucy Show where somebody did it, and so 859 00:45:24,196 --> 00:45:27,436 Speaker 1: I know that it's not new, but it really it 860 00:45:27,556 --> 00:45:31,596 Speaker 1: hurts me. And then let's see what else. This is 861 00:45:31,676 --> 00:45:34,516 Speaker 1: one that I really didn't like when I started hearing 862 00:45:34,556 --> 00:45:37,836 Speaker 1: it in the nineties. Yeah yeah, yeah, people say when 863 00:45:37,876 --> 00:45:40,876 Speaker 1: they're having a conversation, they'll say, oh yeah, yeah yeah, 864 00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:43,516 Speaker 1: but they also make it in an orange color. You're 865 00:45:43,516 --> 00:45:45,676 Speaker 1: trying to say something, they say yeah, yeah yeah, But 866 00:45:45,996 --> 00:45:48,356 Speaker 1: and it sounds pushy to me, kind of like you 867 00:45:48,556 --> 00:45:51,516 Speaker 1: shut up and that's not what they mean. But to me, 868 00:45:51,596 --> 00:45:54,916 Speaker 1: it's just one one yeah. Would do. What they're trying 869 00:45:54,956 --> 00:45:58,236 Speaker 1: to do is take their turn in the conversation and 870 00:45:58,276 --> 00:46:00,316 Speaker 1: they say yeah, yeah, yeah, in the same way that 871 00:46:00,396 --> 00:46:03,156 Speaker 1: now both you and I probably use exclamation points in 872 00:46:03,196 --> 00:46:06,196 Speaker 1: our emails when we're not exclaiming anything. It's kind be 873 00:46:06,276 --> 00:46:08,876 Speaker 1: there in a second game. And so that that has 874 00:46:08,876 --> 00:46:11,516 Speaker 1: been And so now if you want to really exclaim, 875 00:46:11,516 --> 00:46:14,116 Speaker 1: if you want to say something like the tangerine is 876 00:46:14,156 --> 00:46:17,876 Speaker 1: the best flavor, then you have to use two exclamation points. Yeah. 877 00:46:17,916 --> 00:46:20,916 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah is kind of long for what 878 00:46:21,116 --> 00:46:23,916 Speaker 1: used to be just yeah, But it's just this kind 879 00:46:23,916 --> 00:46:26,876 Speaker 1: of natural that it's kind of like, you know, sections 880 00:46:26,876 --> 00:46:29,836 Speaker 1: of DNA replicating yeah, and you know that's that was 881 00:46:29,836 --> 00:46:30,676 Speaker 1: a weird analogy. 882 00:46:30,716 --> 00:46:35,636 Speaker 2: But yeah, no one uses more exclamation marks points in 883 00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:37,636 Speaker 2: in email than me. You know this? 884 00:46:37,716 --> 00:46:38,556 Speaker 1: Are you really doing this? 885 00:46:38,996 --> 00:46:39,396 Speaker 2: Oh? 886 00:46:40,356 --> 00:46:41,716 Speaker 1: It's so exaerine. 887 00:46:41,956 --> 00:46:44,276 Speaker 2: It's to the point now where I think that with 888 00:46:44,596 --> 00:46:47,676 Speaker 2: people I'm regularly corresponding with, if I only use two, 889 00:46:48,276 --> 00:46:51,636 Speaker 2: they'll think that I'm mad at them. And so why 890 00:46:51,756 --> 00:46:55,556 Speaker 2: is not so cold today? He's cut back to two 891 00:46:55,596 --> 00:46:58,716 Speaker 2: exclamation So I gotta I gotta like three and four 892 00:46:59,196 --> 00:46:59,756 Speaker 2: that Saturday. 893 00:47:00,756 --> 00:47:02,676 Speaker 1: That's right, And all that is is that you're being 894 00:47:03,116 --> 00:47:06,196 Speaker 1: cheery and polite. Yeah, that was not the way we 895 00:47:06,236 --> 00:47:08,796 Speaker 1: wrote emails thirty years ago or even twenty. But now 896 00:47:08,796 --> 00:47:10,996 Speaker 1: I'm doing the exclamation points because I'm thinking if I 897 00:47:11,076 --> 00:47:13,476 Speaker 1: just have a period, it makes it look like I'm angry, 898 00:47:13,836 --> 00:47:15,956 Speaker 1: and that's how punctuation change. 899 00:47:16,076 --> 00:47:19,516 Speaker 2: You might be you, but you might well be angry John. 900 00:47:20,956 --> 00:47:24,116 Speaker 1: I have my days, but I would disguise it by 901 00:47:24,196 --> 00:47:26,356 Speaker 1: using a meaningless exclamation boy. 902 00:47:27,276 --> 00:47:30,196 Speaker 2: All right, one one last one for the road. 903 00:47:30,556 --> 00:47:34,236 Speaker 1: So it was you just can't It was yeah, yeah, yeah, 904 00:47:34,276 --> 00:47:36,476 Speaker 1: And then there was the what was the first thing? 905 00:47:36,476 --> 00:47:37,956 Speaker 1: Is what it is? And it is what it is. 906 00:47:37,996 --> 00:47:40,156 Speaker 1: People have got to stop that. So I would I 907 00:47:40,196 --> 00:47:43,836 Speaker 1: would have those three and then maybe yes, it's a. 908 00:47:43,836 --> 00:47:46,116 Speaker 2: Correct response to it is what it is. It isn't 909 00:47:46,116 --> 00:47:49,196 Speaker 2: what it is? Is that what? Yeah? But yeah yeah yeah, 910 00:47:49,236 --> 00:47:50,556 Speaker 2: but it isn't what it is. 911 00:47:52,476 --> 00:47:55,556 Speaker 1: In this case, and so you can't say that. And 912 00:47:55,636 --> 00:47:59,316 Speaker 1: what they're really saying is stop. It's kind of like yeah, yeah, yeah, 913 00:47:59,396 --> 00:48:02,236 Speaker 1: it's stop talking about that like it is what it is, 914 00:48:02,276 --> 00:48:04,196 Speaker 1: and therefore there's no point in dwelling on it, and 915 00:48:04,236 --> 00:48:08,356 Speaker 1: now let's talk about RFKA Junior or something. And what 916 00:48:08,476 --> 00:48:11,476 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about was the tangerine ice cream. 917 00:48:11,636 --> 00:48:13,636 Speaker 1: So that's that's how that goes. 918 00:48:14,796 --> 00:48:19,396 Speaker 2: John, This has been great fun. This is a wonderful book. 919 00:48:19,996 --> 00:48:22,596 Speaker 2: You should all go and get it and give it 920 00:48:22,836 --> 00:48:25,956 Speaker 2: to your friends as well. And thank you for joining 921 00:48:25,996 --> 00:48:32,516 Speaker 2: us tonight, and thank you Jones, thank you Malca, thanks 922 00:48:32,556 --> 00:48:38,116 Speaker 2: for listening. Coming up on Revisionist History, an episode about Faces, 923 00:48:39,476 --> 00:48:45,356 Speaker 2: an episode on raccoons, and another on English muffins. Revision's 924 00:48:45,356 --> 00:48:48,236 Speaker 2: History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and 925 00:48:48,276 --> 00:48:52,276 Speaker 2: Ben Adaph Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Chakerji, mixed and 926 00:48:52,316 --> 00:48:56,196 Speaker 2: mastered by Sarah Buguerer, Engineered by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original 927 00:48:56,236 --> 00:48:59,996 Speaker 2: score in music by Luis Kara. Our executive producer is 928 00:49:00,076 --> 00:49:06,396 Speaker 2: Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Sarah Nix and Gretacombe. I'm 929 00:49:06,396 --> 00:49:07,196 Speaker 2: Malcolm Glappa.