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Speaker 1: We first told you the story of ed Eduardo Dembrique

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Speaker 1: and John Clenny in July twenty twenty two, and I

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Speaker 1: was so excited to run into them both again at

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty three INNOCENTCE Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona.

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Speaker 1: That's an annual opportunity to gather with others in the

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Speaker 1: innocence community axuneries, attorneys, advocate, social workers, and even a

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Speaker 1: few fellow podcasters like me running around sticking mics in

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Speaker 1: people's faces and jokes aside. I look forward to reuniting

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Speaker 1: with everybody every year.

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Speaker 2: We're going to hear.

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Speaker 3: John and a.

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Speaker 1: Dwardo's story again in a minute, but first, here's a

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Speaker 1: bit of the conversation we had when we met up

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Speaker 1: at this year's conference. I started off by asking John

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Speaker 1: how life's been treating him in the free world.

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Speaker 4: Life's been great, been living life, working, traveling, you know,

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Speaker 4: eating good, spending time with my family, my friends, making

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Speaker 4: up for miss time.

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Speaker 3: For sure, it's been amazing.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And what about you at Duardo, What's what's life

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Speaker 1: been like for you on the outside? And I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously you're doing good. You're here, you're representing people Gravitate

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Speaker 1: towards you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I feel great, man, I feel so great.

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Speaker 3: I feel grateful to be here, to be amongst all

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Speaker 3: these brothers that have been through what we've been through,

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Speaker 3: and they understand they're all at different stages of you know,

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Speaker 3: their transition and reconnecting with their families, reconnecting with their lives.

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Speaker 3: I'm grateful and really appreciative of the Peace and Justice

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Speaker 3: Law Center, Fullerton, California, but taking me on as a

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Speaker 3: legal apprentice. It's a four year program administered by the

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Speaker 3: California Bar I'm on my way to become attorney. I'm

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Speaker 3: so strong and passionate for juvenile rights. I'm really really

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Speaker 3: excited and encouraged by the opportunities that I have in

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Speaker 3: front of me and to speak my experience, to speak

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Speaker 3: my truth, to speak my understanding of what I believe

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Speaker 3: justice is for juveniles and their parents.

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Speaker 1: Oh No, it's incredible though, because you went in at

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Speaker 1: fifteen years old. Right at fifteen, you're just fairly a teenager.

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Speaker 1: You're not a man, you're a child. And then to

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Speaker 1: be put into that environment at that age, and now

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Speaker 1: to come out on the other side and transform that

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Speaker 1: pain into healing for other people who are strangers to you. Right.

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Speaker 1: What an amazing full circle story that is.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's the children and their families, and this

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Speaker 3: is happening all across America. You got fourteen, fifteen, sixty

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Speaker 3: to seventeen year old treated differently. Some are giving life

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Speaker 3: said and some are put with the adults, you know,

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Speaker 3: forced to fend for themselves. Their families are at home worried.

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Speaker 3: You know, that family unit is destroyed by that child

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Speaker 3: going into an adult prison. I mean, on all ends

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Speaker 3: of the spectrum, it's not going to end well. And

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Speaker 3: so I am passionate about fighting for these people. They

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Speaker 3: have a right to be treated equally and fairly and educated.

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Speaker 3: And now I'm in a position that I can do

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Speaker 3: something about it, and I feel deep responsibility. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's not the easiest thing, but I'm really excited about

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Speaker 3: this next chapter. I really am.

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Speaker 1: In the eighties and nineties, Los Angeles gang culture was

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Speaker 1: much more nuanced than anyone outside of it bothered to know.

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Speaker 1: For some, gangs meant socializing, while the criminal activity of

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Speaker 1: others colored all affiliated with the same broad brush. Gangs

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Speaker 1: were viewed as a problem that needed a swift and

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Speaker 1: harsh solution, and it seems that simply connecting it defended

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Speaker 1: to a gang was enough to get a conviction. While

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old de Duardo Dombrica and eighteen year old

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Speaker 1: John Clennie were affiliated with LAWNDEL thirteen for the girls,

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Speaker 1: parties and camaraderie, three older LAWNDEL thirteen members, Santo Alvarez,

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Speaker 1: Lester Momlor, and Chad Landrum were in IT for the

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Speaker 1: drugs and violence. On June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: Antonio Alarcan, a rival gang member, was killed in a

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Speaker 1: drive by shooting. A few days later, to escape unrelated charges,

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Speaker 1: Santo Alvarez used his knowledge of that drive by to

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Speaker 1: blame Duardo and John. A few weeks later, Alvarez, Monmore,

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Speaker 1: and Landrum committed another murder, and the police were happy

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Speaker 1: to pin Alvarez's role on a woman who knew the

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Speaker 1: deceased rather than their star witness against Eduardo and John.

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Speaker 1: With Alvarez's statement and a corrupt identification process that was

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Speaker 1: immediately recanted and protested by the witness, the two boys

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Speaker 1: were taken to trial. Chad Landrum was willing to confess

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Speaker 1: to the drive bite, but his continued violence behind bars

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Speaker 1: kept him unavailable. Despite both Alvarez and the witness's less

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Speaker 1: than willing participation to trial, the prosecutor and the detectives

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Speaker 1: were able to harp on at Duardo and John's gang

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Speaker 1: affiliation in order to send them away for life without parole.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today.

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Speaker 1: We're covering a case. It gives us a peek into

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Speaker 1: the gang world of Los Angeles in the nineteen nineties

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Speaker 1: and the way in which the LAPD and the Prosecutor's

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Speaker 1: office dealt with that issue. We have two men that

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Speaker 1: were affected by those policies when they were just boys.

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Speaker 1: There's a third wrongfully convicted person, Susan Mellen, from a

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Speaker 1: related crime. She's not recording with us today, but their

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Speaker 1: amazing lawyer is one of the founders of Innocence Matters.

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Speaker 1: Deirdre O'Connor, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you for having

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Speaker 1: me and now our guests of honor, the two men themselves.

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Speaker 1: You know I always say this, but it's true. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry that you guys are here because of why you're here,

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Speaker 1: but I'm really happy to have you on Wrongful Conviction today.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to introduce John Clenny. First, John, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being here with us today on Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: And of course Ed Dombrique, thank you for joining.

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Speaker 3: Us, Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So you two guys grew up together. Can you give

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Speaker 1: us a little background there.

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Speaker 4: I've known Ed since I was about maybe fifteen. We

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Speaker 4: both grew up in Londale, California. Londeal's kind of typical

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Speaker 4: middle class city in the South Bay. You know, it

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Speaker 4: has its little areas that aren't so great, and it's

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Speaker 4: some areas are decent.

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Speaker 3: So it's about ten minutes fifteen minutes from the beach.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a nice city. It's got a good

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Speaker 2: high school.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in Lawndale, there was a gang in

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Speaker 1: your neighborhood called the Londale thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Well, we grew up there and we were part of that.

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Speaker 1: So you too grew up in the gang culture of

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles in the eighties and nineties and really came

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Speaker 1: of age in the nineties. And I think it's news

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Speaker 1: to some people that the word gang and gang culture

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Speaker 1: in general is a bit more nuanced than most of

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Speaker 1: the country realized back then. You know, many of our

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Speaker 1: listeners are old enough to remember seeing news reports of

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Speaker 1: the violence associated with gangs, and that's pretty much all

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Speaker 1: anyone outside of that culture knew about it at the time.

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Speaker 1: Only negative connotations, of course, So society reacted to that

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Speaker 1: by electing quote unquote tough on crime politicians who implemented

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Speaker 1: these kinds of ham fisted policing tactics, which of course

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Speaker 1: had very real effects, as you can both attest to

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Speaker 1: locking people up for the sake of doing it, but

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Speaker 1: not the right people, and in too many cases it's

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Speaker 1: the wrong people, like in yours. But gang culture was

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Speaker 1: not just criminality and violence, right, It was much much

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Speaker 1: more nuanced than that. Would you say that's an accurate depiction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. Even in a single gang, it may

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Speaker 4: be like, you know, some people are just families, some

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Speaker 4: people are just friends. Of course you have a criminal

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Speaker 4: element to it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone

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Speaker 4: is involved in crime. The term gang is not a

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Speaker 4: good one, but it's like when you're young and growing

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Speaker 4: up and you experienced the friendship and the camaraderie, and

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Speaker 4: I mean that's kind of where you end up at,

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Speaker 4: especially if you're growing up like in a neighborhood, you

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Speaker 4: know where gangs are there.

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Speaker 3: You know, not everybody is on the same page. Not

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Speaker 3: everybody gets along. We were having fun, you know, whether

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Speaker 3: we're trying to get girls, trying to have a good time,

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Speaker 3: that's what it was. But you definitely had other guys

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Speaker 3: that their version of fun or you know, what they

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Speaker 3: would do is drugs and violence.

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Speaker 5: What I think is true for all gangs, right is

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Speaker 5: that there are little subsets inside the gangs where people

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Speaker 5: gravitate towards certain activities, you know, chasing girls, maybe scoring

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Speaker 5: some weed, that kind of thing. And there was that

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Speaker 5: kind of group, and then there were the people like Payaso,

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Speaker 5: which is Santo Alvarez, or Ghost Chad Landrum or Wicked

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Speaker 5: Lester Monlore that were really wanting to make a name

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Speaker 5: for themselves. They were getting high all the time and

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Speaker 5: doing some real vicious stuff. And they were the ones

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Speaker 5: out there doing the drive bys and the kind of

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Speaker 5: gratuitous violence that everybody associates gangs with.

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Speaker 1: Did you get along with these guys?

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Speaker 4: We know them. They're all significantly older than us. I

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Speaker 4: knew Lester when I was growing up a little bit,

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Speaker 4: like just as a as a younger kid, but he

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Speaker 4: kind of went the druggy kind of violent route, and

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Speaker 4: I just was there for kind of like the camaraderie

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Speaker 4: and the friendships and the fun I saw Santos on

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Speaker 4: my block a lot here and there, and my neighbor

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Speaker 4: that lived in the backhouse. I guess he got his

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Speaker 4: radio stolen, you know, out of his car in my driveway,

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Speaker 4: you know, And I always pretty much suspected Santos as

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Speaker 4: being the one that stole it.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so so much for camaraderie. So this kind of

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Speaker 1: accurately paints a picture of the divide that's at the

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Speaker 1: crux of this story. And I mean by that the

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Speaker 1: larger perception of gangs in the nineties, and then how

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Speaker 1: the issue was dealt with, like I said, in a

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Speaker 1: ham fisted kind of way, by detectives like the ones

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Speaker 1: in this case. There was Sergeant Riggs, but also Marcella

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Speaker 1: Win in a related case Deirdre. Have either of them

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Speaker 1: had any other wrongful convictions that they've been tied to.

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Speaker 5: Win certainly does. She's a serial offender. There's at least

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Speaker 5: five known people ob Anthony and Reggie Cole case. They

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Speaker 5: were code defendants. It was Wynn's first murder case at

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Speaker 5: South Bay Homicide.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we covered that case here on Raefel Conviction and

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Speaker 1: we'll have it linked in the bio.

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Speaker 5: Then she had these two guys, Ed and John. Now

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Speaker 5: she had a tangential role in that, but had she

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Speaker 5: done the right thing, these guys would not have been

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Speaker 5: in custody. She also had the Susan Mellon case where

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Speaker 5: she relied on a non reliable person, but obviously unreliable,

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Speaker 5: there was no question about it. And then she had

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Speaker 5: another case, the Michelle Pulo's case, she relied on the

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Speaker 5: same unreliable witness that she used against Susan Mellon.

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Speaker 1: That is really disgusting tactic that we see over and

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Speaker 1: over again revisiting and reusing the same useful liars, like

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Speaker 1: Mark Tavins did in the Bronx and Upper Manhattan. And

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Speaker 1: this kid Joey Morales who was a witness in six

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Speaker 1: different murders and each time he was out getting milk

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Speaker 1: for his mom, and Danny Rincon who we interviewed on

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Speaker 1: this podcast, which is still in prison three decades later

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Speaker 1: because of this fake witness, and of course Mark Tevans,

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Speaker 1: it looks like win was cut from the same cloth.

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Speaker 5: She was a terrible detective and didn't follow the rules

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Speaker 5: at all.

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Speaker 1: Now, as far as Sergeant Riggs is concerned, you're going

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Speaker 1: to see what he does in this case in terms

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Speaker 1: of the identification process, and one can only surmise that

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Speaker 1: if he was so comfortable running rough shot over a

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Speaker 1: witness who was protesting at the identification in the courtroom

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Speaker 1: and in post conviction, yeah, while at the identification, he's

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Speaker 1: literally going, I can't see that, bar I can't do

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Speaker 1: this identification for you because I can't see. So this

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Speaker 1: guy tried to stand up and do the right thing

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Speaker 1: and was overruled and overridden and bullied.

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Speaker 2: By these cops.

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Speaker 1: So it's fair to say that this is something that

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Speaker 1: this particular officer had done before.

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Speaker 5: The one thing I would say, Jason, in these gang cases,

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Speaker 5: you know, all bets are off with these detectives. They

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Speaker 5: can do whatever they want because they know that nobody

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Speaker 5: has any sympathy. All they have to do is say

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Speaker 5: the word gang member, and the prosecutors, the jurors, judges,

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Speaker 5: everybody rallies around a conviction. So the rules are completely

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Speaker 5: different in a gang case, and that's why you see

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Speaker 5: detectives violate the rules as much as they do because

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Speaker 5: they can.

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Speaker 1: Get away with it, right, They violate the rules while

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Speaker 1: lumping every gang member in under the umbrella of quote

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Speaker 1: violent gang member, regardless of what subset of the gang

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Speaker 1: that individual identified with. And what happened in this case,

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Speaker 1: as happens unfortunately all over the country tragically, is that

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Speaker 1: you have a violent character like Santo Alvarez who conveniently

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Speaker 1: trades false information for his own freedom, and then he

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Speaker 1: and they remain free, I mean, other people like him

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Speaker 1: to commit more acts of violence while getting innocent folks

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted, and according to the false information that Alvarez

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Speaker 1: eventually gave the police. This story began to unfold on

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Speaker 1: the day before the incident in question, June twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, when a few kids from around the

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Speaker 1: Lowndeal thirteen neighborhood who were not in any way affiliated,

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Speaker 1: were the victims of a drive by. This was allegedly

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Speaker 1: perpetrated by members of the Lil Watts game. Now, none

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Speaker 1: of this was ever investigated or substantiated, but this story

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Speaker 1: from Santo Alvarez was used as the alleged motive for

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Speaker 1: a retaliatory drive by the following night. But did either

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Speaker 1: of you guys even know the kids who were shot

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Speaker 1: or shot at the night before, and particularly did you

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Speaker 1: know nineteen year old Luis Madrano.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know the guy. Those guys were not associates

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Speaker 4: of Londo. They were not friends of Londo that I

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Speaker 4: know of. But somehow I guess to maybe create a

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Speaker 4: motive for our case, they got brought into that as

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Speaker 4: being a good way to say, oh, yeah, these guys

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Speaker 4: are retaliating for this.

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Speaker 1: And what happened the following night, June twenty thirty ninety

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Speaker 1: seen was that a member of the Little Watts Gang,

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Speaker 1: twenty five year old Antonio Alercon, was at an autobody

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Speaker 1: shop and while outside using the payphone next door, out

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Speaker 1: of sight of those in the autobody shop, he was

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Speaker 1: killed by a drive by shooter. Dieu, what else can

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Speaker 1: you tell us?

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Speaker 5: Allar Khan had a truck that was being worked on

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Speaker 5: over a period of time at the shop, and the

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Speaker 5: shop owner, Daniel Curio, was at the shop that night

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Speaker 5: with a couple of other people in the shop and

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Speaker 5: Aller Khan happened to stop by and while he was there,

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Speaker 5: I think he got a page and he wanted to

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Speaker 5: use the phone to call this woman who turned out

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Speaker 5: to be his mistress. So he was offered to use

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Speaker 5: the inside phone, but he declined and decided to go

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Speaker 5: outside because he wanted privacy. So he went out of

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Speaker 5: the shop. There's an adjacent building and there's a payphone

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Speaker 5: outside of that, and he went to the payphone to

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Speaker 5: speak with his mistress, and then suddenly a car pulled up.

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Speaker 5: Somebody got out of the car and just unloaded multiple shots,

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Speaker 5: and he was killed, really, probably before he had any

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Speaker 5: chance to react in any way. And then the shooter

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Speaker 5: got back in the car and the car drove off,

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Speaker 5: and as it drove off, it passed the opening of

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Speaker 5: the body shop garage door. So basically there's the storefront

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Speaker 5: on the corner. Adjacent to it is the body shop,

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00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,960
Speaker 5: but the body shop sits in from the sidewalk so

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Speaker 5: that there's parking in front of it. So when you're

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Speaker 5: inside the body shop with the door open and looking out,

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00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 5: you would not have a direct line to the phone

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Speaker 5: booth because the wall of the building would be blocking it.

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Speaker 5: But once the car moved forward, they would be able

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Speaker 5: to see the car.

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Speaker 1: Pass by right, so no one actually got a good

295
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Speaker 1: look at the shooter, including the shop owner who told

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Speaker 1: detectives that, but detectives cajoled him anyway into making an

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00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: id that he has never supported. Curiel even demonstrated later

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Speaker 1: at trial that he can't reliably see twenty feet in

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Speaker 1: front of him. Can you talk a bit about his

300
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Speaker 1: vantage point.

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00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 5: Curio's working on a car with his back to the street.

302
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Speaker 5: He hears the sound of the gunshots going off, but

303
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,600
Speaker 5: he thought it was fireworks, and because of the echoing effect,

304
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 5: he thought it was coming from the back. So he

305
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 5: goes to the back and he looks out to see

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00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 5: what's going on back there, and that's when he realizes

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00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 5: it's coming from the front. And by then the car

308
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 5: is moving past the shop, so he would have been

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Speaker 5: I think more than twenty feet away from the car

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Speaker 5: at the time that he first observed it.

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Speaker 1: So what he and others did see was that this

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Speaker 1: was a black or dark green colored sedan and that

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Speaker 1: the front passenger had yelled some kind of gang epithet

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Speaker 1: at Alarkhan as they drove off. So this shooting happened

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Speaker 1: around eleven pm on June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: and from looking into this case, I realized that this

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Speaker 1: state has some other significance and the audience will remember

318
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,360
Speaker 1: this like I do. Because earlier that same night, Mike

319
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:10,240
Speaker 1: Tyson bit Evander Holyfield's ear off during a heavyweight championship fight.

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Speaker 1: So people remember that night very, very clearly. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you guys were friends. Ed was fifteen, John was eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and you were hanging out to watch the fight together.

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Speaker 3: Is that right, Yes, sir. Yeah, on the day of

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00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 3: he had you know, barbecue, invited me.

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Speaker 4: It was actually a great night. You know, we'd never

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Speaker 4: seen something like that before, right, It was pretty memorable.

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Speaker 4: There was multiple people there, you know, cooking, eating, drinking it.

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Speaker 4: It was a good night.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was insane. I remember calling my friends and

330
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Speaker 1: family just to check if they had seen it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: People called the house, a few people and they're like,

333
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Speaker 4: what the hell happened? Seeing it on the news, and

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Speaker 4: you know, if they didn't watch the fight, you know.

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Speaker 1: Right, they knew you were watching and called to ask

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Speaker 1: about it. You were seen on the front lawn talking

337
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,159
Speaker 1: on your cordless phone by a neighbor as well, who

338
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,399
Speaker 1: got home around eleven. So not only do people at

339
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,119
Speaker 1: the party, but also those that called you and your neighbor.

340
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,359
Speaker 1: They all placed you at home at the time of

341
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,000
Speaker 1: the shooting, which was about an eight to twelve minute

342
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 1: drive away from your home. And this shooting was alleged

343
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,360
Speaker 1: to be in retaliation for the shooting of some kid

344
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: you didn't even know. Now, this case was being investigated

345
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:21,200
Speaker 1: by Sergeant DORYL.

346
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Speaker 3: Riggs.

347
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,919
Speaker 1: Several days go by, and on July first, Santo Alvarez

348
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,879
Speaker 1: Akapayaso got picked up for possession of a weapon and

349
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,480
Speaker 1: a hypodermic needle by Torrence PD. And this is when

350
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 1: the story start.

351
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 4: So basically, Santos Alvarez is in jail trying to find

352
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 4: his way out of jail, starts telling the I believe

353
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 4: it was a Torrance Police department where he was at.

354
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 4: You know, hey, I know something about a murder that happened,

355
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 4: and they called the Sheriff's Homicide.

356
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Speaker 1: Right, So Torrance PD called over to La County Sheriff's

357
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: Homicide Department and Sergeant Riggs came to interview Santo Alvarez

358
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Speaker 1: and they started asking about this dark colored car, maybe

359
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: perhaps green, and while distancing himself from Londeale gang activity,

360
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: he said that the only person he can think of

361
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 1: from Londale with a car like that was a guy

362
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 1: named Robert Caputo, and he said that he saw the

363
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,639
Speaker 1: two of you in Kaputo's car on the day of

364
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: the murder, among other things.

365
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 4: But also Santo Alvarez creates this story that he saw

366
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 4: me the day of the murder and I was upset

367
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 4: about that shooting from the prior day of Luis Madrano,

368
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 4: and that I wanted to retaliate. And then he said

369
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 4: that he saw me like you know, a few days

370
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 4: later or whatever, and says that he overhears me talking

371
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,919
Speaker 4: to someone else saying that I shot someone or blasted

372
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 4: that for or something like along those lines is what

373
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 4: he used. So with that, from my understanding, they let

374
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 4: him out. Then they go back to the witnesses. I

375
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 4: feel they put pressure the most on probably Daniel Curriel

376
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 4: since he was a shop owner and showed him six

377
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 4: packs and coerced him into identifying us because of what

378
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 4: Santos said.

379
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 3: So you mentioned that Alva said that we were in

380
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 3: Carpule's car, right, but computer had turned that car in

381
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 3: or sold it. They could tell there that he was

382
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 3: lying about that, and that's a significant thing to lie

383
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:19,399
Speaker 3: about it.

384
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 2: You said, they were in a car that the guy

385
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 2: doesn't have exactly.

386
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: Capudle had sold it in February nineteen ninety seven, about

387
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 1: five or six months before the shooting. Yet Riggs and

388
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 1: his partner Garcia brought a six pack photo array over

389
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 1: to Curiel with the purpose of getting him to id

390
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 1: YouTube as if they couldn't spot that lie about Capudo's

391
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 1: car right off the bat. This bogus photo lineup happened

392
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: on July tenth, I believe, before Ed's arrest, and Curiel

393
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: has always disputed this, but Riggs says that he identified

394
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: Ed as the shooter and John is the front passenger.

395
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 1: He held a gang epithet, So what really happened here?

396
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 4: Well, Riggs convinces him basically, look, you're never going to

397
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 4: have to go to court. We don't even need you.

398
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 4: This is just to help our case a little bit.

399
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 4: We already got these guys, but in reality he was

400
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 4: their entire case. So he convinces Curiel to say, all right,

401
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 4: I'll sign for you today.

402
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 3: My arrest July tenth, nineteen ninety seven, on my way

403
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 3: to the gym with a friend, and he noticed that

404
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 3: there was cow cars behind us, and there was three

405
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 3: of them, and then there was three coming in front

406
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 3: of us. It had a bad feeling, like this is

407
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 3: not a traffic ticket. They pulled us over, pulled the

408
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 3: guns out, drive us off the car, and one of

409
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 3: my mom's friends happened to be driving by, and so

410
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 3: she was across.

411
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: The street just observing.

412
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 3: But I was trying to communicate with her to call

413
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 3: my mom. Dude, I didn't want my mom not to

414
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 3: know what happened to me either, you know. So I

415
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 3: was fifteen. They tried me as an adult and they

416
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 3: sent me to the county jail, and I found myself

417
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 3: in a very binding section of the Alkan and that

418
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 3: was my kind of introduction to the system.

419
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 5: Three weeks after the Alerkhan shooting, Santo Alvarez, Lester Moanler,

420
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 5: and Chad Landrum were hanging out in this house that

421
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 5: had been vacated that was referred to as the Melon

422
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 5: Patch because the family that owned it their last name

423
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 5: was Melon. So they break in the back. They're getting high.

424
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 5: A homeless guy, Richard Daly, who had prior connection with

425
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 5: the woman who used to live there, Susan Mellon, stops by.

426
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 5: They're originally partying with him, and then all of a sudden,

427
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 5: Chad Landrum viciously attacks Daily Max's head multiple times with

428
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 5: a hammer and kills him. And then with the help

429
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 5: of Santo and Lester, they wrap up the body and

430
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 5: bring it to an alley in sam Pedro, where they

431
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 5: set it on fire in hopes of destroying any evidence. Said, well,

432
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 5: enable the police to connect them.

433
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: Right, And you all didn't find out about this until

434
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: post conviction, even though the person who prosecuted both Ed

435
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: and John prosecuted this case as well, and we talked

436
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: a bit about her before. But the Daily murder fell

437
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: on Marcella Win's desk, right, All of these informants came

438
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: to her saying it was Piasso ghost and wicked with

439
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: the hammer right in the melon patch, open and shut, right,

440
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: But that's not what happened. This person, Susan Mellon, ended

441
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: up getting dragged into it in Piaso's stead right instead

442
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: of him. How did that happen?

443
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 5: Well, I think initially when you know, she takes the

444
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 5: path of least resistance in all of her investigations, so

445
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 5: when people were handing up the three gang members, she

446
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 5: was going to pursue that and go after them. She

447
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 5: even submitted a Maffi David for arrest warrants for all

448
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 5: three of them. However, she doesn't want to do any

449
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 5: heavy lifting, so there wasn't enough evidence for the DA

450
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 5: to pursue Piasso, and Wynn didn't do the investigations she

451
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 5: needed to build a case against them. So at the

452
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,479
Speaker 5: same time that it was becoming clear that she'd have

453
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 5: to work to get Piasso further implicated in it, this

454
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 5: other tweaker, June Patty, came along and said, Hey, I

455
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 5: got some information on Melon. You can pursue her. And

456
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 5: so Wind shifted gears and went after Melon. And while

457
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 5: she was doing this, she was in communication with Riggs

458
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 5: about Piasso's role as a witness as their star witness

459
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 5: in that case. So in those conversations that were never documented,

460
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 5: the substance of that was never documented. Clearly, these detectives

461
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 5: made decisions that benefited both of them. So Riggs was

462
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 5: allowed to use Payasso in the Aller Khan shooting, and

463
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 5: Win was free to pursue Melon, another innocent person, for

464
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 5: the Daily murder.

465
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: So ultimately Chad Landrum and Lester Monlaur were rightfully pursued,

466
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: along with Susan Mellon, who was wrongfully pursued. They were

467
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: all tried separately, and Landrum and Mellon were both convicted.

468
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: Monlare was acquitted, So both monlaur and Alvarez got off

469
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: scott free, ready willing and able to commit even more crimes.

470
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, Jesus Chris. So now August fourteenth rolls around,

471
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: and John, you were arrested for the alar Khan drive

472
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: by as the front seat passenger.

473
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was the shocker, obviously, but for the first

474
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: you know, six months of going to jail. When I

475
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 4: got arrested, I thought the next court date they would realize, hey,

476
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 4: this guy's not supposed to be here, We're going to

477
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 4: go ahead and release them. And you know, every court

478
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 4: date turned into a next court date till I finally realized, like,

479
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 4: these guys are so they really, you know, they're really

480
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 4: trying to charge me with this.

481
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: So now October thirtieth, nineteen ninety seven, curial was brought

482
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: into view a live lineup, and on the advice of

483
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: your lawyer, John, you tried to change your appearance. So

484
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: even though you were innocent of this crime, this move

485
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: made you look not so great.

486
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 4: My lawyer, Frank ta Jacomo. He tells me, you know, hey,

487
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: this guy, he's already seen pictures of you. They've shown

488
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 4: him your six pack or whatever. Let's kind of make

489
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 4: it a little more difficult for him to pick you out. So,

490
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 4: you know, grow your hair out, shave your mustache. And

491
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 4: I'm listening to the advice of my attorney. So I say,

492
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 4: all right, you know, I grow my hair out, shave

493
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: my mustache. I go to my lineup and then I'm waiting.

494
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 4: They bring me off the stage from the lineup, and

495
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 4: the deputy is like, who are you? And I'm like,

496
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 4: what do you mean You're not John Plenty? Who are you?

497
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 4: And I'm like, yes, I am. And he's like, no

498
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 4: one recognizes you out there. Your lawyer doesn't recognize you.

499
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 4: The detective doesn't recognize you. You did you switch wristbands?

500
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 4: And I'm like, no, I didn't switch ristbands. Like it's me,

501
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 4: you know, And I said, how does my lawyer not

502
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 4: recognize me? He just saw me two weeks ago. He's

503
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 4: the one that told me to change my appearance. Little

504
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: did I know that was going to be used against me.

505
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: They used that as a sign of a consciousness of guilt.

506
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: So later on Curio and identifying you in the live lineup.

507
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: He went on to testify that he had just recognized

508
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: John from the photo race and in referring to Riggs, quote,

509
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: I already knew who he was looking for. End quote.

510
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: Now you two are on your way to be tried together,

511
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: and Chad Landrum has already been convicted and sentenced to

512
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: life without the possibility of parole. Amazingly, Landrum reached out

513
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: to Ed's family because he wanted to come clean about

514
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: the Alarchan drive by.

515
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: He wanted to testify in the case, and my Lord

516
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: did bring him down to our.

517
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 3: Trial or it was maybe a pre trial pulls or something,

518
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: and they never got his statement. It didn't give him

519
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: much chance to testify or confess.

520
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: From what I've read, there's a reason why he didn't

521
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: get that chance. Right, he was actually brought down to

522
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: the courthouse.

523
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 4: What happened, Yeah, I guess he got into it or

524
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 4: something with someone. I think it was on the bus

525
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 4: or not too sure, but he ended up stabbing him

526
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 4: in the courthouse tank and that was the end of that.

527
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: So you're one shot at getting around the false testimony

528
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: of Alvarez and this protested identification just got dragged away

529
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: for acting out violently again stabbing another guy. And then

530
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: you go to trial in La County Superior Court and

531
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 1: no one brought up Landrum's involvement or went again an

532
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: affi David nothing. So Ed was represented by Walter Urbin

533
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: and John by Frank Dajacomo. The prosecutor was Valerie Cole,

534
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: and so the prosecution's theory was that Ed, John and

535
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: a third Londale thirteen gang member were in the dark

536
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: green car. John was in the front passenger seat, Ed

537
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: was in the back seat, and Ed was the shooter.

538
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: So they never caught up with this alleged driver. Right,

539
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: John allegedly shouted an epithet about the Little Watch gang.

540
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: This was allegedly a retaliation for this other shooting. But

541
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: of course this entire theory came from Santo Alvarez, who

542
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: was deflecting the blame from his own crew. What was

543
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: presented by the prosecution to support this wacky ass theory.

544
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 5: The prosecution was entirely dependent on pre trial statements of

545
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 5: Santo Alvarez and the pre trial identification of Curio. At

546
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 5: the actual trial, Curio did not identify either Ed or John.

547
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 5: He specifically testified that the only reason he made the

548
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 5: pre trial identification was because he was, you know, kind

549
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 5: of pressure to and he gave the whole story about

550
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 5: how the police pointed out the pictures and said, hey,

551
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 5: this guy's ragging about it, this guy was in the

552
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 5: front seat, this guy's a shooter, or all that. So

553
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 5: the jurors weren't basing their verdict on what the testimony

554
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 5: in front of them. They were basing their verdict on

555
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 5: the statements made outside of their presence. Same thing Paiaso

556
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 5: when he gets into trial, he's like, I don't know,

557
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't know what I said, might

558
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 5: have said whatever. So they use the tape recording of

559
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 5: the statement that Paiasso made to Rigs. And by the way,

560
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 5: they rehearsed it before they did the official tape, right,

561
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 5: they talked to him off record, and then they put

562
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 5: the tape on and they talked to them. And so

563
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 5: the jurors were told, hey, look it, this is a

564
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 5: gang case. Piasso doesn't want to come in here and

565
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 5: rat out his homies, so you can believe what he

566
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 5: said to Riggs when he's trying to get out of custody.

567
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 5: And Curio, poor Curial. He's being intimidated and threatened by

568
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 5: all these gang members. So that's why he's not going

569
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 5: to say it in front of you all. But he

570
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 5: looked what he said to the cops. You know, he

571
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 5: made this idea, and that was the entirety of the

572
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 5: prosecutor's case. And the other thing she did, without any

573
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 5: legitimate basis for doing so, is she made every single

574
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 5: one of the alibi witnesses look like liars and made

575
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 5: it sound like the alibi was this last minute defense

576
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 5: that defense lawyers put together at the very end, when

577
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 5: John's mother had presented the lawyers with line by line,

578
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 5: minute by minute timeline of where everybody was, who showed up, when,

579
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 5: who left when, the names, the phone numbers and all

580
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 5: of that the day she hired John's lawyer. So the

581
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 5: alibi was known right from the get go, but the

582
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 5: jurors were misled into believing it was all some fabrication

583
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 5: by the tricky defense lawyers.

584
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I can see how you could impeach alibi

585
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: witnesses as friends and loved ones, or as they did

586
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: in this case, fellow gang members and friends of long

587
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: till thirteen. So the message is that everyone is gang

588
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: related and therefore lying. But your lawyer could have backed

589
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: up the alibi with phone records. It's not that complicated

590
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: it but even without that support though, from what I understand,

591
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: the one witness that was used in this corrupt identification process, Curiol,

592
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: was adamant that he did not stand by this identification.

593
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: Really take off his glasses to demonstrate how bad his

594
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: vision was, because that would have been pretty powerful. Does

595
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: anyone remember that?

596
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

597
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 4: I remember that he took off his glasses in court

598
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: and couldn't see anything. I mean, you could tell he

599
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 4: couldn't see anything. You know when when someone I can

600
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 4: take off my glasses and you can tell I need

601
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 4: them just by looking at me. So, I mean, it

602
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 4: was amazing, man, it was.

603
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: It was crazy.

604
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 3: Another thing that I remember happening was the district attorney

605
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: she said that I gave him my thumbs up. Yeah.

606
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: I read about that to Curio, like as if he

607
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: was helping you out.

608
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 3: And I'm curious, now she's ever used that tactic against

609
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: other defendants.

610
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: Because the whole courtroom focused.

611
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 3: On me, And this is did you just give the

612
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: guy a thumbs up and open courte room?

613
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: Now mine?

614
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: He wasn't doing me any favors. There was no reason,

615
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: and I did not give him my thumbs up. I'm

616
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: looking at the jury like I did not. But it

617
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 3: was effective. Yeah, those dirty.

618
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: It sounds like they were just running the disgraceful playbook.

619
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: I mean, part of Curro's testimony was that the cops

620
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: just convinced him that they had the right guys, and

621
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: at that time, everyone believed the police right. And then

622
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: all they had to do was say gang and gang

623
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: member enough times and it's almost like Pavlov's Dog. It

624
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: just almost a knee jerk reaction from the jury to say, okay, great,

625
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: when do I get to vote guilty. The alibis and

626
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: the witness protesting the identification just didn't seem to matter

627
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: at all.

628
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 4: You got it one hundred percent.

629
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: And then so that thumbs.

630
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 5: Up in there, if I could jump in on that point.

631
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 5: And in LA they created this hardcore gang unit in

632
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 5: the late eighties, I believe it was eighty eight or

633
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 5: eighty nine, and the whole purpose of that hardcore gang

634
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 5: unit was like, damn, it's hard to prove these cases

635
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 5: because everybody's a liar and everybody has baggage, and we

636
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 5: don't have good witnesses. We got to figure out a way.

637
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 5: And basically what they did was they created this unit

638
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 5: where they recruited all these overzealous prosecutors and say, hey,

639
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 5: you get to be the shine star here and you

640
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 5: can make these cases that nobody else can make. And

641
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 5: then they gave them strategies for how to do that.

642
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 5: How do what's the work around when you really can't

643
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,479
Speaker 5: prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt, Just say gang gang, gang, gang, gang,

644
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 5: as many times as you can make everything be about

645
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 5: scaring the hell out of the jurors and making them

646
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 5: think that whoever sitting in the defendanc seat is the

647
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 5: worst person in the world, just because they happened to

648
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 5: have affiliated with a gang for whatever reason, and regardless

649
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 5: of their level of involvement, let's get them off the street.

650
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 5: Evidence be damned.

651
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: Even their use of the word homies, I mean, that's

652
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: a racist dog whistle.

653
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: If I ever heard what I saw, the gang gang

654
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 4: gang push by the prosecutor, by the you know, by

655
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 4: the detectives. You know, I saw my lawyer not do

656
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 4: a good job at all. The combination of all those things,

657
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 4: I felt my life slipping away from me.

658
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 3: When they read the verdict. I remember they hear you know,

659
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: my family, my mom or. I remember looking up at

660
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: the lights in the courtroom trying to not you know,

661
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: let no tears come out.

662
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 4: Man, I think I probably did shed a couple tears.

663
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 4: You know, people talk about the worst moment in their life.

664
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 4: That was for sure the worst moment right there.

665
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: You know, I get to prison on brand new. I

666
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 3: don't know what to expect. I know that I'm surrounded

667
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: by a bunch of guys that are violent, angry, confrontational,

668
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: and so I'm navigating through that. You got to walk

669
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 3: on eggshells to be sure. And I used to work

670
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 3: out a lot because if I did end up having

671
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: to get into a confrontation, I wanted to be able

672
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: to defend myself, and so I used to work out

673
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 3: for three hours a day in the beginning.

674
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: I I tell people this story all the time, like

675
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 4: my kind of welcome to prison moment. I'm scared, but

676
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 4: I'm also trying not to show fear. You know, that's

677
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 4: not a good idea in prison. I'm walking on the yard,

678
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 4: some guys sitting down on a curb, and as I'm walking,

679
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 4: I'm you know, probably a foot or two away from him,

680
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 4: and a guy comes up behind him and just slices

681
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 4: his whole face open, from like his lip to his ear.

682
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 4: And just seeing that happen, like, you know, a foot

683
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 4: away from me, it was like, where the fuck am I? So,

684
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 4: like Ed said, it's just survival mode.

685
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: That's it.

686
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: As soon as I could, I started to read books,

687
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: and then I learned that, you know, the way that

688
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: the criminal appeal process works is your lawyer's gonna dump

689
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: the case on you, and then it's gonna be on

690
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 3: you to represent yourself. And that's when I started to

691
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 3: go into the library. I would go to the yard.

692
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: I would go to the library instead because you only

693
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 3: choose one or the other. And started to learn the law.

694
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 3: And then I found myself in solitary and I had

695
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 3: to try to figure out way how am I going

696
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 3: to get out of solitary was? I started to study

697
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 3: solitary confinement cases and I put together a memorandum of

698
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: law on why lawyers should come to California and challenge

699
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: long term solitary confinement. And in those efforts I managed

700
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 3: to meet Professor Jose Lobel from the University of Pittsburgh.

701
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 3: It was through his student Brett Grot, who's now the

702
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: director of the Abolitionist Law Center. They read my memorandum,

703
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 3: they researched it, and they decided to come to California

704
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: follow class action, and that case settled in twenty fifteen,

705
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. And you know, I was partly responsible for

706
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: getting guys that had been in there for thirty five years,

707
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: eight years, twenty seven years. Me myself, I was there

708
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: for thirteen years. It is one of the things that

709
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 3: I've done in my life that I still feel the

710
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: rewards of because today there's people that are outside and

711
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 3: seeing the sky, seeing their family, and that is due

712
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 3: to the work that I did. Obviously, I wasn't acted alone.

713
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: I had there was a team of lawyers. But I

714
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 3: put in the work and it paid off.

715
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 4: Well.

716
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 1: You should be very proud of that. And as part

717
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 1: of that settlement, California can no longer put a prisoner

718
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: in solitary confinement for indeterminate periods. In Ed's case, it

719
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: was thirteen years with no end in sight, simply based

720
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: upon alleged gang membership. So now that you fought your

721
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: way out of the prison. Within the prison, let's get

722
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: to how you guys are here speaking with us today.

723
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: So your initial appeals were denied. As far as I

724
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: could see here, there's no real movement on this until

725
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: Landrum once again reached out to Ed's family saying that

726
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: he wanted to confess to murdering alercon Right. We knew

727
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: this already, but I guess he hadn't ever gone on

728
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: the record about it and wasn't exactly easily reachable. He

729
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: was also by this time in solitary doing life without parole.

730
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: So John, take us through this.

731
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 4: My friend told me when I got convicted, like, I'm

732
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 4: going to get you a lawyer. I don't care how

733
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 4: long it takes. You know, once I can afford one,

734
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 4: I'm going to get you one. So when this stuff

735
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 4: came up with Landrum, that's when I talked to my

736
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 4: best friend and I told him, you know, now's the time.

737
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 4: You know, this guy's coming forward and confessing, Like, we

738
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 4: need to get a lawyer, and thank god we got

739
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 4: Deir Dr.

740
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 5: John's friend reached out to me in May of twenty twelve,

741
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 5: and what had happened prior to that was Chad Landrum

742
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 5: had written out a confession and provided it to Ed's

743
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 5: family and then Ed used it to file his own

744
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 5: habeas petition, but he didn't have any resources or a

745
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 5: lawyer to help him, so it was just the paper

746
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 5: that went in and the judge just dismissed it without

747
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 5: any thoughtful analysis at all. So when John's friend reached

748
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 5: out to me, the first thing we did is we

749
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 5: scheduled a trip to Pelican Bay to meet with Chad

750
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 5: Landrum and Ed Dunbriky. Both of them were in the

751
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 5: shoe unit and they had no ability to communicate with

752
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 5: one another. My sense of it was if there was

753
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 5: merit to Chad Landram's confession, we needed to do a

754
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 5: lot more work to build it up, and so we

755
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 5: asked all kinds of details, including who else would have

756
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 5: known back in the day about Chad's role in this

757
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 5: killing and the details. He had not a single note

758
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 5: in front of him reminding him about any of the

759
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 5: details of the case, and he could give me specific

760
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 5: information consistent with the police report, including the fact that

761
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 5: he got out of the car and shot alar Khan.

762
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 5: There were only two witnesses that saw that they were

763
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 5: women across the street, and they were never used in

764
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 5: the trial, so none of that was in the trial record,

765
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 5: all of the people from the auto body shop never

766
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 5: saw anybody out of the car because the car doesn't

767
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 5: come into their line of sight until after the shooting

768
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 5: is done. He also knew that Alercan was shot with

769
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 5: different types of bullets. That was a fact that, although

770
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 5: it was contained in the records, would not be something

771
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 5: that some random person would have known about. So there

772
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 5: was a lot of key points in Chad Landrum's statements

773
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 5: to me that made me think that he probably was

774
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 5: telling the truth. And so I asked him to tell

775
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 5: me confirmation as to who else knew back then, and

776
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 5: he told me his brother knew, and we followed up

777
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 5: and talked to the brother, and the brother gave us

778
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 5: all kinds of information. And I also asked Chad if

779
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 5: he would take a polygraph, and he immediately agreed to,

780
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 5: but the prison wouldn't allow us to go up there.

781
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 5: And so then you know all of the places you

782
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 5: would go logically in an investigation like this, including contacting

783
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 5: Curiel stop by his work out of the Blue. Reaes

784
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 5: to talk to us at an Eyehap as soon as

785
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 5: he gets off of work, and he lays it all out.

786
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 5: He tells us consistent with his recantation everything, and it's

787
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 5: all on tape, so nobody can say we put words

788
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 5: in his mouth or anything. And then we did the

789
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 5: same thing with all the alibi witnesses to find out,

790
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 5: you know, was there more that could have been done

791
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 5: to show that they were telling the truth, including the

792
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 5: logical things like phone records and other people who could

793
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 5: corroborate what they said. And it all fell into place,

794
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 5: and it was like I remember talking to John. You know,

795
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 5: we filed our brief in three months after investigation, and

796
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 5: we felt like, this is a no brainer. He should

797
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 5: be out that year.

798
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: I think that's how we all hope our system works,

799
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: but unfortunately that's not how it usually goes, and this

800
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: was no exception. So John Savias was filed in October

801
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: twenty twelve. He presented all this material, and like you said,

802
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: it was a no brainer. In twenty thirteen, Landram made

803
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: a formal confession on the record, then ed joined the

804
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: habeas as well. So it seems like there's a lot

805
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: of momentum. And in an effort to further support Landrum's confession,

806
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: you reached out to his co defendant on the Richard

807
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: Daily murder another wrongfully convicted person, Susan Mallon.

808
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 5: Right, So we went and visited her. There were some

809
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 5: delays along the way because she was being represented by

810
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 5: someone else, but a year later I ended up representing her,

811
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 5: and in a lot of what I needed to prove

812
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 5: her innocence overlapped with what I needed to prove for

813
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 5: John and ultimately Ed, because there were so many witnesses

814
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 5: in common, and representing Susan gave me access to witnesses

815
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 5: that I didn't have before that.

816
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: So this is twenty fourteen, Landram and even Alvarez one

817
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: on the record confessing to their roles in the daily

818
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: murder and clearing Susan of any responsibility. And after seventeen

819
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: years in prison, seventeen long years, Susan's conviction was vacated,

820
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: charges were dismissed and she went on to sue Marcello

821
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: win and won twelve million, and good for her. So

822
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: we're obviously very happy for Susan. That seemed to be

823
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 1: our system operating at the speed that it should, I mean,

824
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: notwithstanding the seventeen long years wrongfully incarcerated. But for John

825
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: and Ed. There was a court order in November of

826
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: twenty twelve for the DA to respond to this habeas petition.

827
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: What happened, Deirdre?

828
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 5: There was one delay after another. There was transfers of

829
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 5: district attorneys and all kinds of stuff that just a

830
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 5: month turned into six month, turned into a year, turned

831
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 5: into five years. And it's hard. I can't even imagine,

832
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 5: excuse me, what it's like for these guys to have

833
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 5: to count on a lawyer on the outside saying, don't worry,

834
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 5: I got you back. I'm I'm going to do this.

835
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 5: You know, I'm going to get it taken care of,

836
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,479
Speaker 5: when they have been disappointed every step of the way.

837
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 5: And I, you know, my experience of it is like,

838
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 5: you know, the frustration I feel on my end can't

839
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 5: even begin to compere to what these guys are going through.

840
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 3: Right.

841
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: Imagine having the keys to the prison gate staring you

842
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: in the face for eight years before the district attorney

843
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: or the courts even pretend to not ignore them. It

844
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: wasn't until twenty twenty that a judge finally made a

845
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: ruling that amounts to basically a brain fart of a

846
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: man in cognitive decline. So tell us about this, judge,

847
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: Edmund Clark Junior and how this thing finally turned around.

848
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 5: So it was clear we weren't going to be able

849
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 5: to force anybody's hand until we filed this supplemental brief.

850
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 5: And I mean, this is this brief because of all

851
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 5: of the evidence that was developed during Susan Mellon's case

852
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 5: was even stronger than what we had, and we had

853
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 5: a clear winner from the beginning. But it lands in

854
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 5: the hands of a judge who couldn't care less and

855
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 5: in a heartbeat, without any hearing or anything, he denies it.

856
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 5: He characterizes it as a pro say proper petition. When

857
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 5: I have my name all over it, I'm representing him,

858
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 5: and I had already been on the record, and he

859
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 5: completely distorted the history of it and made it sound

860
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 5: like it was a brand new petition that was relitigating

861
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 5: issues that had already been decided against John. So he

862
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 5: dismissed it, and then he retired soon after that. So

863
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 5: I file two motions, one for reconsideration and one for

864
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 5: a ruling on the original petition. And either way we

865
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 5: were prepared to go to the Court of Appeal, that's

866
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 5: where we thought we were going to end up. But

867
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 5: fortunately the judge who took the other judge's place really

868
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 5: was concerned that this might be a case involving innocent people,

869
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 5: and she told the DA you're going to need to

870
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 5: commit get yourself on paper, tell me what your position

871
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 5: is on this case, because if these are innocent people,

872
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 5: we have to deal with it. And once they were

873
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 5: forced to deal with it, then they submitted. Then they

874
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 5: just read the document and answered the document. Back in

875
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 5: twenty twelve, it would have been the same answer they submitted.

876
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 5: They said that based on the cumulative error in the case,

877
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 5: that the conviction should be vacated and they were not

878
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 5: going to pursue the charges. They were going to recommend

879
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 5: that it'd be dismissed. They could have done that back

880
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 5: in twenty thirteen.

881
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm rarely at a loss for words, but this just

882
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: really makes my stomach turn. I mean, it's just so

883
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:32,439
Speaker 1: it makes me so angry, frustrated, and just I feel

884
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: a sense of deep sadness. And this didn't even happen

885
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: to me, but I just hate injustice and this is

886
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: such a grotesque example of the system at its worst.

887
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: We see it a lot on the show, but this one,

888
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: this one's really leaving a bitter taste. But the silver lining,

889
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: of course, is that you're out, even if it took

890
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: so much longer that it should have, and never mind

891
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: that it should have never even happened in the first place.

892
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: And John, I understand despite it all, you have somehow

893
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: managed to maintain a positive outlook.

894
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 4: Every day is a blessing for sure, you know. And

895
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 4: as each day goes by, it seems so much farther

896
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 4: away from everything that happened. But it just feels great

897
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 4: to be out and great to be free, and words

898
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 4: can't express it or describe it. Really.

899
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I getting arrested at fifteen and sent

900
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 3: off to prison. There's a lot of things in normal

901
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: society that I've never experienced, you know. Just this last

902
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 3: year was the first time I took a plane ride,

903
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 3: first time I've been to a lake, to a river.

904
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 3: But also like the first time I had to pay bills,

905
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 3: the first time I had to keep up with appointments, responsibilities,

906
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 3: balancing school and work. What I'm finding is that it

907
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 3: doesn't just fall into place. It doesn't, and I'm working

908
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: through that. But there are times when I feel a

909
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 3: little bit lost out here. I really do, I really do.

910
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 3: But I'm confident and optimistic that it's going to come together.

911
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: And Ed, I understand that you'd like to start a nonprofit.

912
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what you're

913
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: doing now.

914
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 3: I applied for a job in Pittsburgh at a nonprofit

915
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: to Abolitionist Law Center. I'm hopeful that I get the job.

916
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 3: If I do, I'm headed out that way in order

917
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 3: for me to work there, but also to learn about

918
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 3: nonprofits and how it runs, and with the goal of

919
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 3: creating my own. I want to call it Juvenile Justice

920
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: for All, and the goal would be to have children

921
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 3: treated equally and fairly, to have their parents rights respected.

922
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 3: A lot of times they just adopt adult laws. The

923
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 3: adult prison system doesn't help children at all. I look

924
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 3: to filing cases in court, but also working on policy changes,

925
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 3: speaking to other nonprofits and getting them to support some

926
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 3: of these ideas. My goal is to have a uniform

927
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 3: system in America treating children equally and fairly across the board.

928
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: Well, Ed, you've already been able to accomplish so much

929
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: from behind bars. So we're going to be on the

930
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: lookout for juvenile Justice for All. And we'll also link

931
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: to Innocence Matters, the organization that Deirdre co founded, so

932
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: please show them your support and John's Instagram as well,

933
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: where he'll keep you up to date on the continued

934
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: fight for justice. In this case. The courts are still

935
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: trying to deny the factual innocence claim here, but after

936
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: what we've heard here today, I can't see any reason

937
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: for it. And with that, we're going to go to

938
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: closing arguments, where first of all, I thank each of

939
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: you from the bottom of my heart for joining us here,

940
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna kick back in my chair, shut

941
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: my microphone off, and leave my headphones on and just

942
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: listen to anything else you feel is left to be said. Deirdre,

943
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: please start us off, and then we'll leave it to

944
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: the guys to take us off into the sunset.

945
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 5: I think that it's essential for these stories to be told,

946
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 5: and I'm so grateful that you guys give people like

947
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,479
Speaker 5: John and Ed the opportunity to tell the stories that

948
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 5: they live through. I think it's important for the public

949
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 5: to understand how fallible the system is, and I wish

950
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 5: it was limited to the nineties, but I represent people

951
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 5: who are charged today. It's the same fight, the same struggle,

952
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 5: and we've got to get it right. The first time.

953
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 5: We have to want to get it right the first time,

954
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 5: because it doesn't serve anybody, even if all we care

955
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 5: about collectively as a society is the money aspect of this.

956
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 5: We're throwing money away. We're paying for people to be

957
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 5: housed in prisons for crimes they didn't commit, and the

958
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 5: real criminals are out there committing other crimes. So we

959
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 5: need to get it right. We need to want to

960
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 5: get it right, and we need to applaud people like

961
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 5: John and Ed who have gone through hell and back

962
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 5: and we need to make their lives easier once they

963
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 5: get out. We need to help them in whatever way

964
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 5: we can.

965
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 3: Well, I do appreciate this opportunity to speak about our

966
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: case and what we went through. I know that there's

967
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 3: a lot of other people out there that are in

968
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 3: the same circumstances and they're in the same struggle. So

969
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 3: I do appreciate the work that you're doing, and I

970
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 3: just I'm happy to be free, you know. I'm happy

971
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 3: to be free. I'm looking forward to making a difference

972
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: out here. I think it kind of for me would

973
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 3: give my life meaning when I feel like I've lost

974
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 3: so much of it already. I'm hopeful that what's left

975
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: of it. I can actually make a difference, and my

976
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 3: experience will help other people.

977
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 4: A couple of things. I'd just like to thank you

978
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,720
Speaker 4: Jason for what you do and Wrongful Conviction Podcast Lava

979
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 4: for Good. I follow all that stuff very closely, keep

980
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 4: it up because it's needed. I think it helps a lot,

981
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 4: and even if it helps a little, a little is

982
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 4: more than nothing. So for me, the one thing I

983
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 4: would tell people is never to lose hope, never to

984
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 4: give up. That's the key to everything, because I know

985
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 4: in my case, I never gave up hope. I kept

986
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 4: the fight, never got away from that. If you're innocent,

987
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 4: you better fight until you can't fight anymore. Hope is

988
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 4: all you got, That's all that's going to keep you going.

989
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 4: Don't lose it.

990
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

991
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Kleibern, and Kevin Wartis.

992
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 1: With research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

993
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

994
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

995
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

996
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction as well as at Lava for Good on

997
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both

998
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is

999
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

1000
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one.

1001
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 4: The Woman burned the land in the Dream