WEBVTT - DL Dudes: A Reappraisal 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.800 Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:08.119 queer sex, filter dirty words, and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.399 If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.000 offends your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.880 Viewer discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids. 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.360 All right, Cruising Confession time, Chris, have you ever been 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:25.560 with a DL guy? 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.400 If they were DL, they didn't tell me, and it 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.840 definitely was in like high school. I guess they were 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.400 yell because we couldn't talk about it right, you know, 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.960 like I could like publicize the fact that, like we 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.800 were hanging out together. So yeah, I guess high school 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:40.400 would be the time. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.440 It is funny because I think a lot of queer 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.240 people are sort of in the closet for a little bit. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.479 And I mean not all of them obviously, but like 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.400 you know what I mean. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.120 In high school, I was like, so I love musical theater, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.680 debate club, and I'm straight, Like you know what I mean. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.480 Believable, believable, she's an actor. Okay, she's an actor. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:01.440 What about you? 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.840 Have you ever been with a DL person? There was 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.400 a guy on a sports team in my high school. Okay. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.880 He like instant messaged me at eleven pm one night 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.080 and he was like, Hey, what are you doing? And 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.759 I was like what what text? Yeah? Then we started. 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:16.959 I knew he had a girlfriend, okay, and we started 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.119 sharing like sexual stories and he's like, yeah, I've always 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.520 been interested in like putting stuff up my butt and 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.840 hooking up with a dude. Oh, and we like almost 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.080 hooked up in a mall parking lot. He was like, Oh, 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.200 I'll drive out to the O Vito marketplace to hook 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:32.360 up with you at midnight. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.520 And I was like, oh, I'm down. And then I 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.479 was like, how am I going to leave my house? 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:42.120 Yes, at midnight and explain to my Puerto Rican parents 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:44.280 that I'm just going to the mall. 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.680 Girl, I was about to risk it all for a deal. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:49.000 Man. 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:50.160 Was he hot? 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.680 He was? Okay, well he was. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.600 So I'm wondering when was the first time you heard 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.840 DL as like I termed to describe people who were 0:01:58.840 --> 0:01:59.280 not out. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:00.000 Yeah. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.360 So for me, it was like daytime talk shows, the 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.160 Oprah moment, these men around the down low, and what's 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.720 wild is it was usually men of color. So the 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.040 term felt very much racialized and kind of tied to 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.359 a specific demographic or a specific type of person, because 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:18.160 I was like, I know a lot of closeted white guys, 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.360 but I didn't see them on Rocky Lake, you. 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:20.760 Know what I mean. 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.880 Like, so, yeah, it was interesting. How about you when 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.200 you first shared the term around the same time. Honestly, 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.480 I think being a black person and growing up in 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.360 the nineties, there was all this conversation around HIV AIDS 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:34.079 and how it was ravishing our community, and like that's 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:35.360 where the conversation started. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.079 It was like, well, it's all these DL. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.959 Guys going out and getting HIV and giving into our women. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:40.600 Right. 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:42.720 The blame is always on the individual and never on 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.520 the government or the institutions of power that A forced 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.760 people to be closeted and b don't provide folks with 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.720 access to healthcare adequate healthcare. It's like, babe, it's the 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:57.200 solution is simple. In today's episode, we offer a reappraisal 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.959 of the controversial figure of the down low or DL 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.800 guy and unpack some of the stigma and stereotypes that 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.240 perpetuate harm today while look at some of the reasons 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:07.480 folks might feel like they need to stay in the closet, 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.240 to their families, or in their workplace. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.320 First, we talked to author Brontes Parnell about his relationships 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:13.160 with DL guys. 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.519 Then we'll talk to an anonymous DL guest who uses 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.280 Sniffies to hook up with gay and straight curious men. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.280 Welcome to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:21.480 I am Gabe Gonzils. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:26.040 I'm Chris Patterson Rosso. Each week weeks more the sublime 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.400 world of queer sex, cruising and relationship. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.280 We'll be talking to queer folks of all kinds. Ask 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.760 them questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.560 A lot of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces. 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:38.760 This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.040 library or the airport. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.200 I feel like everybody's gonna fuck a little harder. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:42.760 Here, damn. 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.200 So I've been like the neighborhood flat, and I took 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.200 pride in that I was so afraid but yet so intrigued. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:50.920 And the more I gave to him, the more. 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:55.720 He could take. Our first guest today is Brontes Parnell. 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.440 Brontes is a writer, poet, punk dancer, director, and an 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:00.760 icon to the rad queers. 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:01.280 Everywhere. 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.080 His award winning books include Since I Laid My Burden 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.760 Down and one Hundred Boyfriends, which won a Lambda Literary 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.920 Award for Gay Fiction. His newest book, Ten Bridges I've Burnt, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:11.000 is in stores now. 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:15.200 Welcome to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Hi Son says, should we 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.159 talk about the elephant in the room? That DL article 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:19.920 that was on Hush Sniffy's. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:27.800 I thought, that's why y'all flew me here, so a 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:28.640 little context. 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.440 Sniffy's published this article by writer Zachary Zane and it 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.680 was all about enjoying sleeping with deal guys. And then 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.240 the online comments came in pretty swiftly and intensely, and 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:42.039 you actually made a post commenting on the comments and 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.239 the article itself. Do you remember what like the issue 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.719 you took with the response to that article was and 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:47.520 what you were feeling? 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.960 Okay, well, basically there's kind of like, uh, basically, a 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.599 lot of the commenters were like framing all download guys 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.960 is having a moral deficit for not being out of 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.320 the closet. And the point I was making is if 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.840 you're having sex on Sniffy's, you already have a moral deficit. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:13.880 Wily fingers and like, aren't we here to do sketchy 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.320 shit with sketchy people. That's why I signed up. So 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.479 there was kind of like this moral grand standing where 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.880 I was just like, I'm gonna bring you bitches back 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:25.279 to earth and the rudest way possible. 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.680 Yeah, it it's the only way to ground the community. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:29.360 Get the girls together. 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.200 I'm just like, girls were getting older. There's not a 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.840 lot of options. Shut up and take the dig. 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.080 Do you remember when this whole thing blew up in 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:44.960 the late nineties around DL guys. 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.520 Oh man, Yeah, I remember it, but I mean it 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.560 was just it was framing and it was bullshit. 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:50.800 Did Gregory? 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:52.920 Actually I love did Gregory? 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:53.760 But did Gregory? 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.760 Like I remember him saying something to the effect in 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.160 this panel of Oh so there are black men who 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.560 have sex with other men, you know, and keep it 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:06.560 as a secret life. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.000 But we are to believe that. 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.160 White men don't do this, and of course, right like 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.080 when white men do it, they are libertines or bisexual 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:21.000 or whatever. Like DL is a specifically racialized term, and 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.040 it's always on the head of like you know, the 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:27.520 fucking lascivious you know, plantation bull or like you know, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.279 the Mexican day worker who's like coming to destroy your bussy. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.279 It's like, no, it's like this totally sensationalized thing. And 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.640 to be quite honest, like in the realm that we 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.240 interact in, these men don't act any different than the 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.720 sketchy baggots you fuck like, I. 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:46.560 Just don't, you know. 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:48.920 But it's the framing of it that makes it, you know, 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.920 it's kind of the thing that's fueling the desire for people. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.440 I think, so like, yes, we could all agree. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.000 Sniffy's as an app that is used by many types 0:06:58.080 --> 0:06:59.680 of men, deal men included. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.800 Sometimes DL is the connotation of just like I don't 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:07.240 want you all niggas in my business. Oka't look because 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.440 you know, like I'll be in Oakland and they'll be 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.000 guys claiming to be DL. But like this one guy 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.480 walked in my room and was like, oh, yeah, you 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.800 got the guitar and books. My cousin fucked you, And 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.600 I was like, you supposed to be d L. But 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.760 y'all y'all talking amongst each other. But I also think 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.960 that it, like the the notion of it has kind 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.640 of morphed too, you know, which I also think is 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.080 kind of fine. There is part of me too, Like 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.320 I'm like, I really spent these years of my life 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.040 like wearing this rainbow crop. 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.560 Toppying like and I'm gay except me, But like what 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:43.000 if I. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.800 Just shut my fucking mouth and been DL, Like it 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:50.000 could have been so much easier, you know what I'm saying, 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:53.760 Like no, cause it's like and there's always this thing 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.320 that I talk about, like I'll have like young d 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.760 L boys come and talk to me about like should 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.120 I come out of the closet? Should I'm not but 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.400 me being in like the radical San Francisco vibe, I'm like, 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.320 the second he comes out of the closet, the only 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.880 thing that's gonna happen is a bunch of trifling ass 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.160 white bottoms on grind theer're gonna be blowing up his 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.040 phone all day. It's not you know what I'm saying, 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.240 like one on the plantation roll thing. It's like it's 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.800 like it's treacherous and so like sometimes I'm almost. 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.560 Like, no, baby, just stay, just stay, like you know. 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.000 What I'm saying, Like, but then also even thinking about 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:35.040 the fact that like Stiffy's is probably the only place 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.960 I get trade anymore, Like the second the second I 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.200 turned forty, the second I was over two hundred and 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.600 twenty pounds and the second I had gray hair. Nobody 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.000 talked to me on Grinder. Wait, white men especially like 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.080 don't talk to me on Grinder. I had a scruff 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:58.400 profile for two years. Not one hit right anybody that 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.120 I am in. When I am, I want Sniffies and 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.959 I was. I started Sniffy's in like quarantine. So Quarantine 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:06.760 was fun. Now I feel like it's just like a 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.720 bunch of scammers and gay dudes, But like Quarantine was fun, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.760 and it was always the anonymous profiles where it was 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:15.559 like the jackpot. 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:16.400 You know what I'm saying. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:21.079 Like, but I noticed that when I, you know, started 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.120 going through Man, I pause, the dal dude that you 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.960 know was you know, probably part of the prison population 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.680 became like my number one fan, and thank god for them, 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.679 But where would we be, yo guy. But it's also 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:42.720 too it's like I don't know, like we're all just 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.280 fucking sketch, you know, like we're all pretty sketch. But 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.600 I'm also saying I still have as much sex as 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:50.880 I had when I was like, you know, that twenty 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.000 year old thought going to the gym five days a week, 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.960 three hours a day, but like when your body change, 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.480 how the scope of your trade changes, how you have 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.280 access the sex changes. It's weird, right because we're essentially 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:07.079 what we're having here is like an intersectional conversation about sex, 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.000 but people don't like intersections because intersections are always black holes. 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.680 Like we can discuss how it like kind of has 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.959 no meeting once. There's five different things we're talking about. 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:22.960 But I don't say this to uphold these men, but 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.640 I do. I am glad that there is this app 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.920 that kind of kind of did away with how Grinder 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.360 became Christian mingo all of a sudden, seriously, because it 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.520 became like about, oh sorry, you be on Grinder sometimes, 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.000 and I just feel like it's a bunch of white 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.959 dudes asking you what your earning potential is, and like 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.560 if you have the nine inch dick, you still have 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.040 to have the apartment or the education, Like there's real interview, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.439 whereas like sniffy dudes are just like I want you 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.319 face down, ass up social Security card on the bed. 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:03.400 Kind of excited. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:13.120 The whole series, so I have to have then, what's 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.040 been good or about about hooking up with DL men 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.520 from a sexual and maybe an emotional perspective. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:20.280 I don't. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.200 It's when I say, DM, I don't think they act 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:24.480 any different than the gay is. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:26.720 What I will tell you is, Okay, here's a funny story. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:26.959 Right. 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:33.360 I got this one guy that was like, okay, it 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.040 was a white guy. It was this white top and 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.120 he was using pictures of a light skinned black boys 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.840 dick and talking in a a v like African American 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.880 vernacular English, be like, yeah, I'm gonna show up. 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:46.040 I'm gonna beat them cakes up. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:46.959 I'm gonna do all this. 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.040 But I want you like you know, I want you blindfolded, 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.679 doors locked or door unlocked, like face down. But like 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.240 I live on like Martin Luther King Junior Way in Oakland. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.079 You know it's always a scared street. Right, I'll leave 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.600 my door on locks. And I was also like, I 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.440 got roommates. This is the Bay Area. What the fuck 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:08.839 do you think I live alone? 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:09.680 Anyway? 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.680 Right, I get to the door and I answered the door, 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.600 and it's like, not just any white boy. I'm talking 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.720 man Bun Berkeley, sweater, burken stocks. 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:20.640 You got like Rachel Doloso. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:21.880 But he was like, oh. 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.480 Real, okay, no, but like y'all, but seriously, he has 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.360 some serious dick on him, and I still let him 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:34.000 hit right yeah, But then later he like hit me 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.640 up and was like, hey, man, that's fucked up. That 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.720 was supposed to be anonymous, and I was like, you 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.680 were supposed to be black. But the thing about it 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:43.120 was like. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:50.559 His it's like. 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.880 Here's but because it's a weird. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.839 His fetish was impersonating a download black man so he 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:07.120 could go fuck blindfolded black bottoms, like okay. But then 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:11.600 afterwards his boyfriend texted me on the app and was like, hey, 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.920 did this guy come over? Was he using like was 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.200 he using these black boys pictures? 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.720 And then I was like yeah, yeah girl, yeah, yo, 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.000 man skitch. But then he was like, well how was 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:23.560 the six? 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.080 And I was like and so I blocked him because 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.160 I thought that was like the guy or whatever. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:29.920 Yeah, but so. 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:40.200 That wild participating in someone else's fantasy without your knowledge, 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:41.079 where I. 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:47.120 Can't do that every day. Also, like it was like 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:52.600 totally fine. Yeah, but then also I don't even when 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.640 we're like yeah the dick was good, I'm sorry, like 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.600 as I go through mana pause too, like part of 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:04.320 me too is just like good dick is like not 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.920 that hard to come by the right, you know, because 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:10.920 I remember being it, like, you know, in my twenties 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.199 and just remembering I always had to have the most 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.760 porn ideal of the most thunder god dig down, and like, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:18.920 you know, the older you get, you're just like, oh, 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:20.480 I just need to get this shit done so I 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.080 can get on fucking, you know, make my spaghetti and 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:30.040 go to bed. You know, sex becomes as I treat 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:35.640 sex more as a natural function of you know, human life, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.320 you know, and not always having to have it be 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:42.560 this like I don't know, this porn ideal or whatever 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.600 kind of changes in the shape of how I engage. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.440 I'm very interested in these sort of porn ideals too, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.560 right because on the one hand, we have talked about 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.280 how coming out in some places is not safe even 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.000 still to this day, or not comfortable for a lot 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:57.880 of people, which is why we stop people in the closet. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:14:59.680 But I do think there's like a flip. 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.800 Side to the a DL men are viewed, and part 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.840 of what causes the kind of controversy surrounding the idolizing 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.200 of the DL guy, the idea that there's something harder 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.320 about them in bed because they are straight or they 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.640 give the impression of like uber masculinity. I don't know, 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.240 how do you kind of unpack that when you're thinking 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:16.800 about this topic that's. 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:21.320 All across the board, Okay, Like just if I say 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.880 the mean average of stories I hear with these men, right, 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.000 they are usually in their forties, the wife has had 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:33.400 the second kid and has stopped putting out. Right, They 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.080 usually are in social circle. Straight men have very close 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.080 social circles, and it's very hard for them to be 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.720 sleeping with women within those circles. So I think they 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.040 know they're at that age where a rectile dysfunction is 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.560 about to hit, and they're just like, this is my 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.920 last ten years to get it in, And so they 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:55.960 go into this realm like where they can have complete anonymousness, 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.760 like there's actually something very functional about like kind of 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:01.880 what they're doing and actually makes a lot of sense, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.840 and even like the idea of them cheating, it's funny. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.920 My mom, the biggest like sex positive awesome person is 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.480 like kind of like my mom, right, And I remember 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.600 like talking to my mom on time and being like, so, like, Mom, 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:15.840 do like all men cheat? And She's like, are you 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.680 fucking stupid? Women cheat? Like when a man is cheating, 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.120 Do you think he's only cheating with single women? 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:23.479 He fucking someone's. 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:27.840 Girlfriend, fucking someone's wife, Like do the actual map Like 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:29.600 a lot of these guys, I do think that their 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.560 wives have like other lovers or doing whatever. Some of 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.000 these guys I think are coming in to like kind 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.920 of act out these things that these mans do. Some 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.040 shit to me where I'm like, if I was a woman, 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.040 i'd call the police. But you know, like look at me, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.720 like I don't know, I'm pretty built. People fuck me 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.120 like I'm a linebacker, so it's like I could take 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.400 a beating, you know what I'm saying. But when you 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.920 talk about them, like the stories are so across the board, 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.800 and it really did make me think that like gay 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:58.960 really is a political identity. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:16:59.920 I don't. 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.200 I think it's like we live in a world where 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:07.760 there was always room for the behavior, but the identity 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.520 is what became the crisis. Men have found a way 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.320 to have sex with other men forever years. Yeah, but 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.120 now that we are in like this last seventy years 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:25.240 of this kind of gay revolution, the subject becomes like identity, right. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.240 But then also sometimes I don't know, I feel there's 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.080 ways I feel kind of left behind by the current 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:35.639 sexual revolution in a way because I feel like it 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.760 didn't make more faggots. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:39.400 In my head. 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.080 Sometimes I'll be in Oakland and they'll be like I'll 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.600 be hanging out with like the trans girls and the dolls, 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.639 and all of them want to get their trade and 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.240 go move to Sacramento and like live as white women 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.320 in pick of fences. And now download men feel like 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.439 they can just come in and fucking like, you know, 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.480 you bang up all the gay bussy and not fucking 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:02.679 owe nobody nothing. No fact, it's still been't asked to 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.080 marry me yet. And for all this representation and all 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.080 this openness, Like, why do I still feel like I 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.359 don't know, I would have had better luck if I 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.640 had just had like a lavender marriage in the fifties, 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.439 You know, it doesn't. I always want to feel like 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.439 there's a linear line we're moving towards freedom, but we 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.239 seem to always make this curve back saying to the 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.160 same old shit we've been stuck in. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.080 I've definitely found a couple of men in my neighborhood 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.560 that are faceless profiles and are afraid of being like 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.800 seen on an apple, like Sniffies because of work or 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.440 their family, right, So it's like they're kind of out 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.560 of their social circles, but they're not out of families 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.560 at work, and at least in my neighborhood. I mean, 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.119 I live off Avenue in Puerto Rico, but it's a 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.600 lot of Latino men. I'm right at home, but it 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:53.200 is a lot of other Latino men. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.800 Every time someone puts a face pic on Sniffy's too, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:00.840 I'm like, Reez is desperate. No one's there to be handsome, 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.480 you know. But actually there was a while. There was 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.880 a while. There was a period of about six months 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.560 where I like didn't take any photos. I just let 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:16.760 dudes come over because I was just like, how do 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.920 I say it? In my twenties, I worked at the bathhouse, 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:21.040 I worked at steam Marks. 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:21.400 Wow. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.120 So there's something so crazy about like having spent most 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:29.719 of my life in a situation where everyone's in towels, 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.680 everything's kind of revealed. Men'll just walk up to you 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.119 and grab your dick and be like yes or no, 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.000 and like that's it. Where there's something about when you're 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.199 having sex with a DL dude, he's coming to your 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.600 house specifically just to see you, and I never even 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.840 noticed how there's something actually magical about it doesn't matter 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.520 what his dick look like, his body and also, to 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.600 be honest, who truly has an unattractive face? I don't 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.280 really think that that's like a true thing. Watching someone 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.080 just undress in front of you and only be there 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.640 for you is a way different magic than this kind 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.000 of like you know this the way gay man participate 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.600 in that like kind of bathhouse he like you're either 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.399