WEBVTT - Dr. Ethan Kross on Inner Chatter 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.400 Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:15.400 Heart Radio. Hello, beautiful people, Welcome, Welcome to today's Holy 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.800 Human Podcast. I am so excited for you to meet 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.880 today's guest. Dr Ethan Cross is an award winning psychologist 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.959 and one of the world's leading experts on controlling the 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.479 conscious mind. He's also the author of a book that 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:34.640 I have found both fascinating, truly truly fascinating and very useful, 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.120 Chatter The Voice in our Head, Why it Matters, and 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.479 How to harness it. Today. Dr Cross is here to 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.519 explain the incredible hidden power of our inner voice and 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.919 show us how we can harness it to live healthier, 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.040 more satisfying, and more productive lives, all on this episode 0:00:51.080 --> 0:01:16.279 of Holy Human. Yeah yeah, all right, Dr Ethan Cross, 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.560 thank you so much for joining us here on the 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.080 Holy Human Podcast. So it's a delight to be here 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.959 chatting with you about this. So yeah chatting. I love that. 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.520 I'm no fun intended. I have literally recommended your book 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.120 and I'm yet to finish it because it is a 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.200 thick book, but I'm I'm so obsessed. I read like 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.960 a hundred pages this morning because I I find that 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.399 this is a topic that is very close to my heart. 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.600 I feel like it's something that I have. I'm very 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.240 aware of chatter in my mind and how it can 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.360 take on different forms and and control all of our lives. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.960 And so that's what we're diving into today with you, 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.400 is everything chatter and inner voice. And I would love 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.120 to just start at what when you talk about inner voice, 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.520 what is that? Exactly? What do you mean by that? 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.520 So I think of the inner voice um as this 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.000 amazing tool that we all have. It's our ability to 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.720 silently use language to do lots of different things. So 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.400 it's like a Swiss army knife of the mind. So 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.440 if I asked you to repeat a phone number in 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.639 your head, you use the language to do that, right, 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.360 So it helps us remember things. But we can also 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.040 use our inner voice to to plan and or simulate things. 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.320 So I do it when when I'm when i have 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.639 to give a big presentation, I'll often rehearse what I'm 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.280 going to say in my head, and then I'll hear 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.760 what people in the audience are going to say, and 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.360 I'll often think of what the nasty audience member is 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.080 going to say, and then I'll say something back. And 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.079 usually I'll say something back in my head that I 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.480 wouldn't say in daily life, but right, so, so that's 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:55.080 like a powerful tool. We also use our inner voice 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.639 to make sense of our experiences. Like things happen all 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.240 the time to us, and we're trying to weave those 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.359 experiences together to give us a sense of who we are, 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.200 and our inner voice helps us do that too. I 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.119 would imagine that in your line of work, you're you're 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:16.320 also constantly engaging this inner voice when you're hearing sounds 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.000 and a lot of progressions. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.480 but does it does it factor into your everyday experience 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.800 as well? Oh? Yeah, absolutely, Well gosh, I could go 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:27.600 so many ways with this. I feel like my under 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.239 voice turns on like the moment I get up, and 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.880 it can it can go kind of down one way 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.880 or the other, whether it be a negative path or 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.360 somewhat of a positive path. It just depends on on 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.360 the day. And when I'm performing, I definitely engage it, 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.840 you know. I feel like sometimes that's what the performance 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:50.600 piece for me is actually the one place where I 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.360 can lose it, where I can go beyond it, which 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.640 is to me what feels so for someone who has 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:03.600 constant chatter in their mind. It's actually really blissful to perform. 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.080 I mean, obviously I'm still using it because there's I mean, 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.840 I'm engaging when I'm singing words and in that way, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.960 but when I get lost in my art, there is 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.320 a there's a place beyond the chatter for me. That is, 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.880 like I said, blissful. And at the same time, I 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.599 can actually have full on conversations in my head on 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.440 stage about like what I'm gonna eat for breakfast tomorrow 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.719 and who I'm piste off at. And so it's it's 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.360 interesting how that I can have I can be doing 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.760 something and still have this whole other experience and internal 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.280 dialogue going on. Yeah, I mean that reminds you of 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.479 like when when I'm at the dinner table and like 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.560 my daughters are telling me about their day, and if 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.360 my mind somewhere else, they finished talking and I don't 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.640 necessarily hear what they've said, you know that it has 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:55.600 happened where they like telling me about a whole experience. 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.760 And then when they're done, I'm like, oh, so what 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.359 happened today? And I just told you that that And 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.960 so that's an example of how you know, really are 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.840 thoughts and which are often verbal in nature. Um, you know, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.320 they they determine where we are, like what we're feeling, 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.320 what we're attending to even and so they can like 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.320 cloud out our experiences. But but you know, back to 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.080 the inner voice. So so it can do a lot 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.839 of things for us that I think are really really useful, 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.039 but it can also get us into trouble. And and 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.480 chatter is what I the term I used to describe 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.480 what happens when our inner voice gets us into trouble. 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.440 So so we've got this amazing ability, uniquely human our 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:42.560 ability to use words to silently talk to ourselves, solve problems, create, innovate. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.799 But then when we experience problems in our life, we 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.960 we we we we go inside, we try to figure 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.440 out why we're feeling this way we are, and then 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:57.840 we get stuck. We start spinning, we get worried, anxiety, rumination, 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.360 we catastrophize, think of the worst scenarios, and we get 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.960 stuck in those negative thought loops that I think many 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.920 of us have probably experience from time to time that 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.960 may make life not so much fun. You know that 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.960 that make it difficult to be in that blissful state 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.359 you were describing earlier that can interfere with our health 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.120 and our relationships and so so chatter is is what 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.599 captures those the negative side of the inner voice. And 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.040 and you know, my my approach to this is if 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.920 the inner voice is really helpful in some cases, which 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:32.880 I think it is. I don't think we want to 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.279 stop talking to ourselves. I don't think we want to 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.800 silence our inner voice. We want to figure out how 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.920 to use it more effectively. And so I spent a 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.360 lot of time in my lab trying to figure out 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.440 how to do that, and I talk about that in 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.520 the book. Yeah, so does everyone have an inner voice? 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.320 I've actually read that people some people don't experience an 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:57.040 inner dialogue? And how does one develop that inner voice? 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.559 And do people that don't have an inner voice actually 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.880 have a call more world? Wow, they're okay, lot lots 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.320 of good questions here, So let me check how much 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:06.840 time do you? Yes? I know I can talk to 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.600 you about this all day long. No, I'm game. This 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.240 is this is what I live and breathe, So it's 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.720 all good. So do some people not have an inner voice? 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.960 So I think about the inner voice as like the 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.200 Swiss army knife, of the mind. It does lots of 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.360 different things. And I think if you have the ability 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.840 to speak out loud, then you've got the capacity for 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.600 an inner voice. So most people can use land with 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:36.440 properly functioning brains can use language to rehearse information. So 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.560 if I give you like like that the challenge I 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.200 gave you before, just here's here are four numbers, repeat 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.960 them in your head. That is a basic feature of 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.640 the human mind that we can use language to do that, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.920 and I think everyone has that. Now, when you go 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.040 to other other functions that the inner voice provides, like 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.040 having an ongoing conversation with ourselves, there, I think there's 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.360 a lot more variability. Some people report never doing that, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.080 and you know, there may be a minority of people 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.440 like that who don't have that inner running commentary. Other 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.760 people do it a fair amount, others a lot more. 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.840 In my experiences, the majority of people that I've spoken 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.800 to have certainly had experiences with with chatter, and so 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.679 I think it is a pretty common common experience that 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.360 that people have. Do you find that certain types of 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.640 people are more prone to negative or and or positive 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.200 self talk, Well, so there there are differences. Um, we 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.520 do know that women are more likely to get stuck 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.120 in chatter than men, but the tools that exist for 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:45.520 managing chatter work equally well for men and women. Now 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.080 this is not to say, by the way, that women 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.360 just have it worse than men. Across the word. Men 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.600 do plenty of things in psychological terms worse than women, 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.480 engage in certain kinds of other harmful behaviors, so so 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.840 it all balances out. But we do know that there 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.560 is that gender difference in terms of the experience of chatter, 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.120 but the tools work equally well, and I think that's 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.800 really good news. Yeah, absolutely this you say that. One 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.320 of my favorite things that you say is the inner 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:16.040 conversation is is the most important conversation we have all day. 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.480 Can you dive into a little bit of why that is. Yeah, 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.880 we're spending a lot of time I think most of 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.960 us lost in thought. You know. We we often hear 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.520 about the importance of living in the moment and being 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.439 in the moment. And I am all for being in 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:35.280 the moment at the appropriate time, but our brains evolved 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.360 to not be in the moment. We spend between a 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.480 half and a third of our waking hours flowing into 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.000 the past and transporting ourselves into the future, and we 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.520 spend a lot of that time talking to ourselves about 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.679 past experience. Is trying to figure out, well, why did 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.800 I screw this up? Or or savoring like a past 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.640 event my daughter, my younger starter, had a birthday, you know, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.200 two weeks ago. I'm thinking about that experience, replaying conversations 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.880 we had, or I'm imagining what I'm going to say, 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.439 you know, during this podcast or something else. So we're 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.920 spending a whole lot of time in our heads and 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.160 a lot of that time talking to ourselves. And so 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.720 I think what we say is really quite important. Um. 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.920 We know those conversations can impact like how we feel, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.640 our relationships, our ability to focus and perform at work. 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.400 So I think they really are truly important set of 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.560 conversations we have. Yeah, when we get stuck in that 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:37.199 rumination or that that negative place, what effects does it 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.160 have on our bodies? Like physically do you do? You 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.320 really want to know? Yeah? I would I say this 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.440 because you know, this is disconcerting stuff. And um, and 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.920 so let me preface it by saying, I'll talk a 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.199 little bit about the negatives. But there's a there's a 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.760 light at the end of the tunnel. So you know, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.920 we often hear that stress kills, stress is bad for you. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.640 In fact, that's not correct. Stress, like the ability to 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:07.280 experience stress is really adaptive. When there's something threatening in 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:12.240 front of us, having this system to react super fast 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.920 is useful when stress gets harmful in a in a 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.480 physical sense, is when we have a stress response, it 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.120 goes up, it's activated, and then it remains chronically elevated 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.120 over time. That's when the stress begins to eat away 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.400 at our body in ways that predict things like cardiovascular disease, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:35.120 in certain forms of cancer and information. Now, this inner 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:40.439 voice that we have is really really good at maintaining 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:44.080 our stress responses because what happens is something happens in 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.559 the world. Someone tells me I'm a bad professor, or 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.960 they don't like an experiment, whatever, and it happens. But 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.600 then what do we do. We replay it again and 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.280 again and again and again in our heads. And when 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:02.360 we do, we're essentially conjuring up and reactivating that threat response, 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.959 that that stress response, and we're keeping it active over time. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.600 So that's one of the ways that stress can get 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.920 under the skin to really impact our health in in 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.920 really powerful ways that, um I think we want to 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:19.280 try to avoid. Yeah. Absolutely, Um. Well, and you know, 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.080 you talk about something we hear a lot about is 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.840 going inward and turning inward. And I found it so 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.040 interesting how you talk about how introspection can actually backfire 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.400 on some people. Yeah, well, you know, and I found 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.960 this interesting too because it was actually the way I 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.800 got interested in this whole line of work. Wasn't wasn't 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.800 really I think the typical path that most people get 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.600 into psychology and neuroscience. Um so if I inter started 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.240 with my dad when I was a little kid, and 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.120 every time something bad would happen to me, not that 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.000 I got into huge amounts of trouble, but you know 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.440 I didn't get a cookie extra cookie for dessert, or 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:56.480 I got into find my mom. You know, he'd tell 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.280 me to like go inside, to introspect and try to 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.880 figure out a solution to move on with my life. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.040 And that advice really served me well throughout my childhood 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.560 an adolescence. And then I got to college and I 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.520 took a psychology class, and I realized that a lot 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.040 of people do exactly what my dad told me to 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.320 do when they get upset, but it doesn't make them 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.080 feel better, they end up feeling worse. Instead, they get 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.839 stuck ruminating over and over and over about things are 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:28.200 worrying excessively. And so for me, the big question became, Okay, well, 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:32.920 why does that happen? Why is this really useful ability 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.360 to tap inside ourselves and try to use our mind 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:38.520 to come up with a solution. Why does it often 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.400 fail us? And we've learned a little bit about about 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.160 the answer to that question over the years. Um. We 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.440 we've learned that when when people are really upset and 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.440 they introspect, they tend to over focus on the problem. 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.920 They zoom in so narrowly that the only thing they 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:55.960 can think about is what happened to them and how 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.040 they felt, and that makes it really challenging for them 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.480 to think about the bigger picture, other ways of maybe 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.200 making sense of the experience that might lead them to 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.560 feel better. And so one of the piece of advice 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.560 we give people is to try to zoom out when 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.120 you're feeling chat when you're experiencing chatter. And there are 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:15.959 lots of ways you can do that. Yeah, you know, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.160 you talk a lot about our environment and how it 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.360 affects this chatter in our mind, and I feel like, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.160 you know, something I've been experiencing. I think a lot 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.280 of people are experiencing as we sit at home, as 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.200 our lives have changed. You know, I've been I've been 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.920 on the road my whole life, basically since I was thirteen, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.680 and all of a sudden, now being at home in 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.240 one place, which is something that's never happened to me. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.920 I've found that, you know this, the chatter can get 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.040 really loud, and I think a lot of people probably 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.120 are experiencing that in this moment. And can you talk 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.520 about how that those shifts in our environment can can 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.480 affect the way that we we talk to ourselves, because 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.920 I know that that shift in my environment has definitely 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.840 been challenging. Yeah, well, you know you're not alone. Um, 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.840 We've seen a threefold increase in clinical levels of anxiety 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.200 and depression in the population over the past year, which 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.800 is quite significant. We have a lot of time that 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.880 we're now spending alone with ourselves and our thoughts, and 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.160 we're living through a really stressful time. Like arguably, I mean, 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:22.960 I think this is like the chatter event of the 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.520 century if you think about it, Like, but once in 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:31.880 a century pandemic really scary, economic instability, politics were a 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.720 mess up until recently. People are fighting with each other, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.960 Like there's a lot of uncertainty in the world and 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.160 a lack of control, and we know that those are 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.720 two ingredients that fuel chatter when we don't have control 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.040 over things. And so the first thing I would say is, 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.280 if you're feeling chatter, you're not alone. I think a 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:54.360 lot of people are are feeling chatter, and that makes 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.280 total sense. And so then the question as well, well, 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.120 what can you do about it to manage it effect like, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.080 and you know, there are lots of different kinds of 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:04.800 tools that people can use. It look like you wanted 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.040 to give an no first. I think it's interesting. I 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.280 feel like I've had to really become aware of the 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.400 fact that it's even happening sometimes, Like I feel like 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.920 we can get so you talk about you know, with 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.200 listening are thinking about something and not hearing your daughters. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.200 I almost feel like that can happen in my own head, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.760 Like it just continues to have this conversation. I have 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.320 a friend of mine and I were talking about our 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.560 inner voice, and she's like, if it's not if it's 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.680 not talking, and it finds song lyrics and it just 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:33.640 keeps going on that and all of this that happens 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.680 to me a lot. All of a sudden, I'm like, wait, 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.840 I've been ruminating on song lyrics now, the same song forever, 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.880 and it's it's almost like the awareness of it has 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:48.520 to to occur because sometimes we totally just completely unaware 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.160 of that it just continues to talk. Well, I think 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.480 you just described like that's like part one of the 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.520 battle against it is simply like being aware of what 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.520 chatter is and how works. Because I think if you're 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.280 not even aware of it happening, and you're not going 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.800 to do anything to try to fix it. So I 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:11.040 study self control and I break it down for people's 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:15.640 self control's got two pieces motivation and ability. So you've 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.320 got to want to do something, and then you've got 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:21.040 to have the tools to actually do it. So if 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.239 you're if you don't know, if you don't realize your 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.840 experience and chatter, you're not gonna be motivated to reduce it. 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.119 You're just going to get lost in it. Hopefully, listeners 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.520 right now and people who read the book, like step 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.679 one is they just recognize that, Yeah, when I'm getting 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.600 stuck in the thought loop and it's coloring everything I do. 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.800 That's chatter, and that's a cue to maybe try to 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:47.000 minimize it so I can live a happier and healthier, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:52.720 healthier life. And up next we're going to learn exactly 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.159 how to do that. But first we are going to 0:17:55.240 --> 0:18:04.840 take a super quick break. Welcome back everyone. We are 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.919 here with Dr Cross talking about how to minimize negative 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:12.040 mental chatter. And it's not something we teach, you know. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.520 This is the amazing thing we're doing research now where 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.600 we've developed curricula on the mind and emotions and have 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.920 a manage it that we're teaching to high school kids. 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.680 It's shocking to me, Like, you know, I spent so 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.000 much time in high school learning about the digestive system. Man, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.080 I never have the need for knowledge about the digestive 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.199 Like I've used it once in recent history, like to 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.440 explain to my daughters how it's possible to be upside 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.000 down and swallow food, like that is it. But like 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.200 the mind, this thing that that we cared between our ears, 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.800 like we use this all the time. People who understand 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.320 our works are in a good position. Yeah, and it 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.040 can have effect on the digestive system. But it absolutely 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.200 has an effect on the digestives and that's right, so 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.320 very good. Yeah, we really need to start up here 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.479 the to understand anything. And the fact that kids are 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:01.680 even learning this in high school now, I think it 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.760 is incredible because you know, it really can change the 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.359 course of of their life. Yeah. Well, you know when 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.280 my oldest daughter, when you know, she's eleven, which I'm 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.200 learning is an interesting age. I have an only only child, 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.600 so I didn't know about daughters, and eleven is an interesting, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.199 interesting time to be one. I'll just say that. And 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.080 when she gets upset about something, like when I tell her, actually, 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:27.679 you don't have to feel that way. You can you 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:31.000 can actually choose to feel differently. And and here's here's 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.840 like a way of thinking differently that might make you 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.520 feel better. Like that's eye opening for I think kids, right, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.840 because if you don't, if no one teaches you that, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.560 then you don't know any better. And so you're then 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:46.720 just victim to how you automatically respond. And we know that, 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.480 like our thoughts aren't our destiny, we have the ability 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.200 to control them in ways that can be really useful. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.000 So that's part of the reason why we're trying to 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.160 work with kids and and why I wrote that book. Yeah, absolutely, Well, 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.160 I mean, you know, I've struggled with anxiety and depression, 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.400 and depression for me has has really kind of hit 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.199 hard um the beginning of this year. And you know, 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.399 when you get caught and that you say you can 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.720 choose your thoughts, But when you get caught in that rumination, 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.679 and it can be when I get depressed, it's like 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.200 the lens in which I view the world changes and 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.760 that therefore the thoughts change, and I can literally make 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.440 up a completely different story about the exact same life 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.400 that I that I have, that I love, and all 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.240 of a sudden, like that whole story changes. So when 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.919 you're caught in that rumination, what's the when you, like 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:38.639 you said, you say you can choose your thoughts. But 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.679 to someone in that rumination space, choosing your thoughts seems 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.440 like the last thing that you're able to do. What 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.440 where's the first place to go when you're in that space? 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:51.080 So first all I want to point out I love 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:55.639 the way you just describe that experience because it invoked 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.200 the voice, right you're the stories that you're telling yourself 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:03.840 when you're when you're depressed or sad, are are shaping 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.200 how you feel right and and so that goes back 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.159 to like these how important these conversations that we have 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.919 with ourselves are because they can really influence how we 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.320 view the world. So what can people do? First of all, 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.000 I break it down into there being like three categories 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.760 of tools that science has revealed that people can use 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.680 for managing their InterVoice. Things that people can do on 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.040 their own to change the way where they're thinking about 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.399 the situation, small ships that can have benefits, ways of 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:37.040 interacting with other people that can be really useful, and 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:39.960 then ways of interacting with our environments. And so there 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.240 are like twenty something tools that fit into those different buckets. 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.240 Let me tell you what I do when I find 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.760 myself slipping into chatter, because if I go through all 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:54.600 twenty tools, probably you might fall asleep and so listeners. Um, 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.560 so take COVID as an example. Not a fun not 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:00.480 a fun time to be in. So one thing I'll 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.399 do is is we know that when people are experiencing chatter, 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.920 they zoom in really now in the problem, that's all 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.320 there is. And so what we try to do is 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.440 get people to zoom out to broaden their perspective. One 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.679 way you could do it is by doing something called 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:22.320 temporal distancing or mental time travel. So I'll think about, all, right, 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:24.760 how am I going to feel nine months from now 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:28.119 when everyone I know is vaccinated and I'm traveling again 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:32.120 and going to restaurants That seems pretty awesome? Right, When 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.600 I travel in time in the future like that, what 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.320 that does is it makes it clear that as awful 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.679 as what I'm experiencing is right now, and it really 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.920 is awful, it's temporary. It will eventually fade. And that 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:47.800 gives me hope. And we know that hope is a 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:52.760 really powerful antidote to chatter, right, It can really help 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.360 bring people out when you're when you're sad and anxiously 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.160 feel hopeless, So it's giving you the exact opposite. I'll 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.280 also go back in time. I'll think about the pandemic 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:06.200 from eighteen and how that was even worse than this, Right, 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.639 people didn't have uber eats and zoom and all of 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.480 the things that we can do right now that make this, 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.199 I think much more tolerable. And they got through it 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.240 back then, right, They came and roaring back in the 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.600 nineteen twenties and life was awesome, And so that that 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.520 broadens mic perceptives. That's one thing I'll do. Another thing 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.720 I'll do is I'll try to give myself advice like 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.640 I would give to another person. One of the things 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:35.320 we've learned is there's a quirk of human nature. We 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:38.880 are so much better at advising other people on their 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:43.640 problems than we are taking that advice ourselves. It's bizarre. 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.199 And what we have learned is that it's possible for 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:49.879 us to coach ourselves through our problems like we're talking 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.880 to someone else. And as wacky as it sounds, one 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:55.280 way to do it is to use language, to use 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.359 your name to walk yourself people. All right, ethan, how 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.200 are you going to deal with this problem? That sounds 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.040 a little a little strange, But what we know is 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:07.840 that when people do that silently, what that linguistic shift 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:10.399 does is it gets you to think about yourself like 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.760 you're another person. Like most of the time we use 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.880 names and when we're talking to other people. So here 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.480 you're giving distance between you and yourself. And that can 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.560 be really helpful too for helping you think objectively and 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:25.320 not get stuck in a rumination wortex. Have you ever 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:27.600 have you ever done that? Yeah? Well, so I've been 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.480 been implementing some of these pieces of your book, especially 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:34.320 during tennis. So I started playing tennis a couple of 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.920 years ago, and I really have been using the self talk, 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.200 the distant self talk piece, you know, like coaching myself, 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:43.600 you know, Lee, and You've got this like just you know, 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.359 I've been calming myself down, um while playing tennis, because 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:50.760 I have a tendency to just like at a certain point, 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:52.800 if I even if I'm winning the match, like all 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:55.720 of a sudden, I'll start playing harder or trying harder. 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:57.359 And it's like I've been trying to like kind of 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:02.800 talk myself back from that. And so today today I 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:04.680 just played tennis that long ago, and well, there's a 0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.080 piece in your book about belief, which is really which 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:08.520 we can get into in a second. I'll just tell 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:12.760 my story. But the belief being such a huge component 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.560 in in the way that we can work with our chatter, 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:18.840 and really a belief being kind of this magical tool, 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.159 is what you call it. And so with belief, I 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:25.040 had was watching the Australian Open the other day and 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:27.000 there were these two girls playing and I looked at 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:29.919 my husband, I'm like, I could play them, and he's like, no, 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.040 you couldn't, and I'm like, yes, I could. I could 0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:34.840 play them. So I went on on the court today 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:36.679 and I looked at my coach and I told him 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:38.480 the story. I'm like, I could play them, and he 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.800 very kindly and facetiously was like, oh yeah, sure, you're goold. 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:46.360 And I literally took that belief and I truly believe 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:50.400 that if I worked hard enough, I could play them. 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:54.560 And with that belief and my distance self talk today, 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:56.760 I have never played better tennis. And he looked at 0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:58.440 me at the end and he went, what the hell 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:02.120 got into you? Like? I walked away from that realizing, 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:06.880 like I mean, belief is so powerful. It is incredibly powerful. 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:09.840 And for me, I have been you know, like I said, 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.280 I've been sitting at home. Another way that they have 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:15.400 kind of flipped this on myself is also sitting at home, 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:18.119 not being on the road. And the first place that 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:20.719 my mind goes, and this is another story telling your 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.680 book about the picture that forgot how to pitch. The 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:26.520 first place my mind has gone, not being in practice 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.080 of singing every other weekend or whatever it may be, 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:32.360 is oh ship, well, I forget how to sing. That 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.920 path can take me down to a really dark place 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:37.639 where I'll go to sing and all of a sudden 0:26:37.680 --> 0:26:41.399 have all this apprehension around something that I've never thought about, 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.640 like I don't think about singing just comes out. And 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:48.040 so that's been so interesting to have the time to 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:50.960 sit and be like, wait, when do I know what 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:53.879 I'm doing? Still? And when I read that part in 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:56.080 your book about the picture forgetting to pitch, it actually 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:58.600 gave me some context of what was going on in 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.679 my own mind, and it allowed me to go, oh, 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:04.199 I can shift that, I can change the way that 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:07.400 I'm thinking about this. And to be able to see 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:10.879 the way that my belief changed my tennis. It was 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.639 like having the yin and the yang of experiences of 0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:17.800 belief shaping the way that I talked to myself and 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:20.679 the outcome of things. Yeah, well that's that's that's a 0:27:20.720 --> 0:27:23.040 great example. Too bad I'm not still writing the book. 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:26.399 I would have used that one of the anecdotes. And 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:30.800 the belief is, you know, just remarkably powerful. And I think, 0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:35.280 you know, there's so much science behind showing like when 0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:39.479 the placebo work. So if you give people a sugar 0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:42.600 pill and you say take this pill, it's gonna make 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:45.600 you feel better. It's going to help relieve your anxiety 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:50.040 and depression. And sure enough, if you actually believe the 0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:54.040 physician who gives you that medication, research shows that for 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:57.400 mild and moderate forms of depression and anxiety, it actually 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:00.800 has that effect, which to me speaks to the power 0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:04.240 of belief to impact how we feel. Right, And so, 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:06.840 you know, how does that work? Why can't we just 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:11.080 often believe ourselves into something? Right? Well, there's always like 0:28:11.720 --> 0:28:15.200 some nagging self doubt, right, and in our critical nous 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:17.280 that I think gets in the way. But when you've 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:20.560 got a trusted physician or coach who says, Leanne, this 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:23.679 is going to make you feel better, I am certain 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:27.439 of it, right, they're basically taking away those downs and 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.439 just letting your belief carry the day. And so I 0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:33.520 think a lot of really great coaches do this for 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:38.760 their players, right, their masters at channeling this belief. But 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:40.880 what we've learned is that there are ways we can 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:43.400 we can do that for ourselves, and I think that 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:45.640 provides us with a useful tool. Yeah, So, do you 0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:47.840 have to be a hundred percent and on a belief 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:50.760 for it to work? Because I find there is the 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:54.800 inner believer. And there's also like the one that doesn't 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:57.280 like there is the one who is a skeptic in 0:28:57.360 --> 0:28:59.640 me too. And so for the magic to work, do 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:01.440 you have to be all in? You have to be 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:04.040 all in for the belief one to to usually work. 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:06.719 That's that's typically how that one goes. So you may 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:09.720 have some trouble with that. But but here's the good news. 0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:13.560 The good news is that the belief that's like one 0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:16.560 of twenty different tools that exist. So here's another tool 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:20.160 tennis related that you don't have to believe in it 0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:24.680 for its work and as rituals, so so like athletes 0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:28.920 um and performing artists as well. Actually you do you 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:31.600 have any rituals before you perform that you engage them, 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:34.280 you know what I Actually I probably do, but they're 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:37.600 not like elaborate or concrete in any way. But I'm 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:39.400 sure there's some kind of well, I would have to 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:42.040 say probably one of the things that I've when I'm 0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:44.080 on the road that I do before my guitar player 0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:46.160 will come in and we'll just kind of like play 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.160 over music just it doesn't have to be songs we're 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:50.360 going to perform, but just to like get us in 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:54.080 that headspace. I think that's probably the one. You just 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:58.000 did it. You said we didn't, we didn't rehearse that. 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:01.640 That was just organic. Yeah, got you in the headspace, right. 0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:05.840 So here's what's super fascinating about rituals. Rituals by the way, 0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:08.480 you know, I think we often think of rituals as 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:13.520 synonymous with like obsessive compulsive disorder in certain worms of anxiety. 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:18.400 That is an extreme usage of rituals. But we have 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:23.360 been using rituals to help with our chatter for a 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.120 really long time. Like cultures around the world give us 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:32.640 rituals for handling the ultimate chatter provoking events like death. Right, 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:34.840 no matter what your religion is, you probably have a 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:39.080 grieving ritual that you engage in. When babies are born, 0:30:39.160 --> 0:30:42.520 there are birthing, this is a tumultuous time. Our cultures 0:30:42.520 --> 0:30:45.400 give us rituals to engage in. And what we see 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:48.080 is that, like a lot of athletes and people who 0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:53.600 perform under stress, they organically create their own rituals. So 0:30:53.680 --> 0:30:57.000 Raphael Adualts bring it back to the tennis. He's got 0:30:57.040 --> 0:30:59.720 a great story that I just I just love. Um. 0:30:59.760 --> 0:31:02.120 He is interviewed and someone asked him like what's the 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:05.560 hardest thing you do on the tennis court? And and 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:08.400 you know, this guy is playing against the best athletes 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:11.239 in the world, like athletes who are trained from the 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:15.960 moment they're born to beat him, basically, and competing against 0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:18.560 his athletes, that's not the hardest thing he does, he says. 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:21.640 The hardest thing he does is battle of voices inside 0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:24.840 his head, the nagging inner voice, the chatter that can 0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:26.920 get in the way of him and performing well. And 0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:29.600 how does he do it. He engages in a ritual, 0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:34.600 a very rigid, structured sequence of behavior. So he always 0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:36.680 walks onto the court the same way, and then he 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:40.040 you know, takes his jacket off in a very particular way, 0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:43.800 and he lines his water bottles up diagonally against the cord. 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:46.960 And before ever we serve, he runs his fingers through 0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:49.280 his hair and he picks his shorts out of his butt. 0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:51.800 I mean, weird, wacky stuff, right, but he does it 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:55.760 every time. And what it does for him is it 0:31:55.840 --> 0:31:59.120 provides him with a sense of order and control and 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:01.800 one word, experienced and chatter. We often feel like we 0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:04.640 don't have control of what's happening, right, like our mind 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:07.560 is taking over, like ah, like I can't control what 0:32:07.640 --> 0:32:10.800 I'm what I'm thinking and feeling. And what we've learned 0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:13.880 is you can compensate for that feeling of a lack 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:17.880 of control by creating order around you, and rituals are 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:20.640 one way that people do that. And the science shows 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:23.720 that you don't actually have to even believe that they're 0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:26.680 going to help you. If you engage in the rigid 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:30.320 sequence of behaviors, they still have benefit. And so the 0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:32.600 beliefs aren't working for you. You know, you can do 0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:36.200 a ritual interesting, so you don't actually have to believe 0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:40.640 that they're working. Oh that's fascinating. Yeah, Now if you 0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:45.960 do believe, right, it's only benefit. But there's research which 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:47.640 shows you don't have to believe and you still bet 0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:50.600 you can still benefit from them. That's interesting. Um. The 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:54.320 environment pieces is always is fascinating, and it's for me. 0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:56.719 I know that while I've been sitting at home, a 0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:59.080 lot of lists have been happening. I know you talk 0:32:59.120 --> 0:33:01.680 about a lot of that lot about the like people 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:04.800 can tidy up their environment, which helps a lot, especially 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:08.600 as we're all sitting at home, like you know. Um, 0:33:08.880 --> 0:33:11.880 for me, it's been about lists and and being able 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:14.360 to execute the things on my list. Like, that's a 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.440 way I know that from my own mind that I 0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:19.520 feel like I have a bit of control over a 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:23.000 time when I have I feel like I also I 0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:26.360 feel like I have zero control. You're you're you're creating order, 0:33:27.000 --> 0:33:30.400 and we know that when when anxiety is heightened, people 0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:34.680 naturally try to re establish order in ways like that 0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:36.680 by by creating lists in order. I tell a story 0:33:36.680 --> 0:33:39.000 in the book about how when when I was a 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.640 little chatter prone one writing the book, like when a 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:44.440 paragraph wouldn't come out right, or I had a deadline approaching, 0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:47.960 I would do something really strange for me, strange because 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:51.120 I'm not a particularly like orderly. I'm pretty free, you know, 0:33:51.200 --> 0:33:53.640 like books are all over the place, and to my 0:33:53.680 --> 0:33:57.120 wife's dismay, like a shirt might be in one corner another. 0:33:57.560 --> 0:34:01.360 But when I was struggling, like my office never looked 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:04.360 so good, and I go to the kitchen and like 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.320 carefully clean all the pots and put them away really nicely. 0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:10.160 And that was my way. And I think doing what 0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:13.960 you're doing with lists, right, I'm trying to compensate for 0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:18.839 this feeling of despair that I'm experiencing by leaning on 0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:22.879 my environment and I think that's fascinating that they were 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:26.480 like tools that exist in the world around us for 0:34:26.640 --> 0:34:29.439 managing the chatter inside our head. Like, again, we don't 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:31.600 learn that growing up, you know, we kind of just 0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:35.560 stumble on these things through the course of living. But 0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:38.719 I think science can help guide us now and say, Okay, 0:34:38.840 --> 0:34:41.840 here's what we've learned about how to harness your environment 0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:44.640 to your betterment. Well, that's what I love about your 0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:47.600 book is that there's scientific proof. I mean some of 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:50.359 these ticks and things that we're not aware that we're 0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:54.080 actually sometimes already doing these things. And you know, that's 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:57.480 where the science is so fascinating to me because for 0:34:57.600 --> 0:34:59.959 me reading it, it's made me aware of the things 0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:05.360 already do and given me context around why why it works. 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.680 And I think like you were saying that in the placebo, 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:11.120 it's like here, take this placebo. It will help you 0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:14.520 feel better. It's and knowing how the placebo works and 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:16.680 why it's gonna help you feel better, It's like knowing 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:20.080 the why has really been beneficial for me at least 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:24.200 on you know, continuing to to do these things that 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:26.600 I kind of naturally already do and doing them even 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:29.399 with more purpose. Yeah, and I think I think that's 0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:32.520 exactly it. It's knowing what the tools are and how 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:35.680 they work allows us to be a lot more deliberate 0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:38.319 about how we use them in our lives. So so 0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:41.239 if I experience a moment of chatter, I have a 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:45.040 go to like chatter cocktail that I take as not 0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:47.920 alcohol based right to deal with it. Definitely don't do 0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:51.400 chat alcohol not conferred competition, that's not in your book. 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:54.080 It's not in the book. Not a good thing. But 0:35:54.120 --> 0:35:56.799 you know, I'll do the mental time travel, I'll do 0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:59.840 the distance self talk. I'll do something we haven't actually 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:03.440 talk about yet. I'll talk to people about my chatter. 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:05.920 But like, I'll be really careful about who I choose 0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:11.920 to talk to because other people can be incredibly helpful 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:14.160 when it comes to our chatter, but they can also 0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:16.440 get us into a lot of trouble. And that's not 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:20.360 a message you hear often conveyed. You know, we often hear, oh, 0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:23.359 if you're feeling bad, just get it out, vent your emotions, 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.560 find someone to unload. And we know that that that's 0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:31.120 not actually helpful for helping people deal with chatter. So 0:36:31.480 --> 0:36:35.600 what is beneficial then for for each other? Find someone 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:39.280 who's there to like really listen to you and show empathy, 0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:42.480 someone who you can have a conversation with, but at 0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:45.440 a certain point they hear you, but they don't just 0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:48.960 keep asking you to rehash what you felt. Oh my god, 0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:51.319 he said that, and how did you feel? What are 0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:54.160 you going to do? Like not just getting you to 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:57.879 keep venting, because what if you're just venting? That makes 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:00.440 you and I feel really close and connect did like 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:04.000 our friendship grows, but it doesn't do anything to help 0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:06.640 you solve the problem. So what you really want to 0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:08.440 find as a person who can let you bend a 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.720 little but then nudge you to think about the bigger picture, 0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:15.400 trying to help you reframe the experience. So so you know, 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:17.920 if you're really down about let's say your your last 0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:20.719 performance didn't go so well, you know maybe I'm like, well, 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:25.520 but yeah, you've done hundreds of thousands of these performances before, right, 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:28.400 Like you've had bad ones before, you've gotten over it 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:31.560 and you've gone onto great things. So think about that, 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:34.280 or or let me tell you about the last time 0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:38.239 I floved a presentation, and you know, like here's what 0:37:38.320 --> 0:37:40.840 I did. And so these are ways of just trying 0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:45.640 to break you out of that doom and despair that 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:49.960 characterizes chatter. And other people can be helpful. But um, 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:52.160 but if they don't do that, they can make the 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:55.160 chatter worse. So I'm super super careful about who I 0:37:55.160 --> 0:37:58.200 go lose throughout. And sometimes it's not the people who 0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:01.560 are the closest with it's other people. M hm, Well 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:03.680 it's my husband so great at that of giving that 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:05.759 type of advice, And sometimes I just want to slap 0:38:05.840 --> 0:38:07.480 him because I'm like, that's not what I wanted to 0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:13.000 hear at this moment in time. All right, at this 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.000 moment in time, we are going to pause for a 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:21.000 quick break. But don't worry, we'll be right back. Welcome back, loves. 0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:23.680 We were talking about the best people to bounce your 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:29.000 inner chatter off of. But that's a very important um caveat. 0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:31.759 And I talk a little bit about this. There's an 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:35.279 art to being a good chatter advisor and so um 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:37.200 And you know, as a scientist, I'm not used to 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.799 talk to me about art in what I view, right, 0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:41.680 but but there's an art here in this in the 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:46.560 following sense, Different people need different amounts of time to 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:51.479 just unload their emotions. Like, so maybe I take two 0:38:51.520 --> 0:38:53.839 minutes of subscribing it to my wife before I'm ready 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:57.120 for her to help me, but maybe for someone else 0:38:57.160 --> 0:39:01.000 it's twenty minutes, right, or fifteen minutes. I think the 0:39:01.239 --> 0:39:03.680 art of being good chatter advisors being able to read 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:06.440 the person you're interacting with so that you can know 0:39:07.200 --> 0:39:10.520 when they've really felt heard like and are ready to 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:13.080 go broader. And and it's going to be different for 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:17.040 every every individual. That's interesting. Yeah, that is very important. 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:22.440 Did these voices change, I mean throughout our lives and 0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:26.680 like what influences that you know, like where, when, at 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:30.120 what times can they can they change and shift? Yeah? 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:33.879 So they can shift? And um, I like to think 0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:35.879 about it as the voices in our head are are 0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:39.280 tuned by our surroundings, and so early on in life, 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:43.680 our parents and caretakers are playing you know, they're in 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.600 our heads quite a bit. As we grow older, the 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.719 other other people in our lives and our relationships, like 0:39:50.360 --> 0:39:55.560 our colleagues are, our partners, are loved ones like their 0:39:55.640 --> 0:40:00.000 voices are shaping our own voices. So we are very 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:04.680 sensitive to our surroundings. And that makes sense, right, because 0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:07.400 we want to be tuned to the world around us 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:12.040 so that we can navigate it optimally. So the kinds 0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:14.560 of things that are causing you concern or giving you 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:17.400 joy at different moments in time are likely going to 0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:20.760 be shifting depending on where you are in your life, 0:40:20.880 --> 0:40:22.960 right and so you know the things that give me 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:27.279 joy right now professionally, like I don't know, twenty five 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:30.120 years ago I would have made fun of Like in fact, 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:32.840 I remember, like in college, saying to myself, if I 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:35.440 ever end up doing them for a living, like you know, 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:39.399 someone shake me, and here I am doing it. So 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:42.280 so how we think about our lives and use language 0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:46.160 and do so is very sensitive to who we surround 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:48.440 ourselves with. Yeah, I mean, what are some of the 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:52.560 unconscious ways that our environment is shaping the way that 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:55.200 we think? Well, So, so this goes to a tool 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:57.719 that I think could be really useful, which is which 0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:01.800 is nature? So nature, there's actually just an article yesterday 0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:03.719 in the Wall Street Journal, I think it was that 0:41:03.800 --> 0:41:08.080 basically said is two hours of time in nature the 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:12.480 New ten Thousand Steps, and and I talked a lot 0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:15.840 about nature in the book. What we've learned is like nature, 0:41:15.840 --> 0:41:20.640 our physical surroundings provide us with the tool for rejuvenating 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:24.480 ourselves after we're depleted from chatter. So when we're experiencing 0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:28.880 chatter like that's taking up all of our attention. And 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:31.600 that's in part why it impairs us when it comes 0:41:31.640 --> 0:41:34.640 to work, because we can't think about anything else. It's 0:41:34.680 --> 0:41:38.120 what we've learned is that exposure to green spaces. So 0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:40.480 if you go for a walk, I can see your 0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:43.200 window right now looks much nicer than mine because I'm 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:47.600 facing like a foot of snow, but yours looks a 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:53.560 lot more pleasant outside. Yes, not here. More, what nature 0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:57.160 does for us is it captures our attention in a 0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:00.160 very soft way. So it's like our our attention just 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:03.560 drifts to the leaves and the trees and and the 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:09.080 bushes and the squirrels, and and that it occupies our attention, 0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:11.960 but we're not working really hard to make sense of 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:16.280 our surroundings. And that allows our attention, our ability focus 0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:19.400 to restore, and that can be really, really helpful. So 0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:23.160 that's one way that our environment can, outside of our awareness, 0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:26.239 really help us well. And I found it, sorry not 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:28.840 to interrupt you, I found it interesting that you said 0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:32.680 not only being in nature, but actually photos and sounds 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:35.160 and so a lot of people, you know, have been 0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:38.480 stuck at home and they don't have access to nature. 0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:40.680 I mean, I'm fortunate have a backyard, you know, I 0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:42.880 can go out in it, like so many people can 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:46.080 be stuck in small places. And that's what I've found 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:48.359 so fascinating about the research of nature. It's just even 0:42:48.440 --> 0:42:51.080 looking at photos or hearing sounds of nature can be 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:55.120 just as impactful. Yeah, absolutely right. You know, I will 0:42:55.200 --> 0:42:58.120 say that I think the more immersive it is, the better. 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:01.719 So the more time you spent and the more all 0:43:01.760 --> 0:43:03.799 consuming it is, the more likely it is to have 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:07.480 the biggest effect. But you can absolutely benefit from it 0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:10.640 by looking at pictures or videos. In fact, when I 0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:13.759 became involved in some of this research, the first thing 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:16.680 I did is in my office at work, I took 0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.360 down like the picture of whatever that was there, and 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:21.440 I put like a photo of a tree that my 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:24.160 sister I had taken for me because like, you know, 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.360 practice what I preach it. I got like an orchid 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:29.520 in the corner now because I know I know what 0:43:29.560 --> 0:43:32.319 the science says. So that's one way the environment up. 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:34.759 But the other really cool thing, and I mean I 0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:38.719 suspect people actually get this from like going to your concerts, 0:43:38.719 --> 0:43:42.160 and I'd be curious about whether you experienced this too. 0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:46.960 On the other side, we've learned that experiencing awe, the 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.840 emotion of awe, can also help us manage chatter and 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:54.560 so really quick. The way that works is as an 0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:57.600 emotional we experience when we're in the presence of something 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:01.279 vast that we have trouble explained. And so a lot 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:03.359 of people get it from nature. So when I think 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:06.799 about like the number of planets in the universe, I 0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:10.160 can't it's hard for me to contemplate that it's awe inspiring. 0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:13.640 But other people get it from attending an amazing concert 0:44:13.800 --> 0:44:18.480 where everyone's singing together and there's a sense of transcendence, 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.520 like you're all in it and the sounds are amazing. 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:25.040 And this is hard to understand how that actually works. 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:29.560 And what we know is that when people experience that emotion, 0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:34.560 it makes us as individuals and our concerns feel a 0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:39.240 whole lot smaller. Our self shrinks, And when it comes 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.719 to chatter, like shrinking your chatter is that's not a 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:45.680 bad thing, right, Like our concerns feel a lot smaller 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:48.520 in their presence of something bad. So to me, that's 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:52.680 a really just neat beautiful finding and so do you 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:55.799 ever experience that when you're I think that's what I 0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:58.759 was saying earlier about getting past the chatter, is that 0:44:59.200 --> 0:45:03.600 the the awe of knowing. I always say that I'm 0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:09.080 being sung instead of being the one singing. And when 0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:14.919 I experienced that kind of effortless, free flowing energy and 0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:19.480 knowing I'm connected to something else, Um, that is inspiring 0:45:19.560 --> 0:45:22.160 on stage and you know you're saying, so many people 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:24.840 singing you know the same song. Like to watch the 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:29.480 energy of a massive crowd like coming right back at you. Yeah, 0:45:29.560 --> 0:45:33.000 that's absolutely inspiring. I think about it. You know, I 0:45:33.080 --> 0:45:35.640 live for those moments. I think when we experience then, 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:38.000 we all really do like it takes you out of 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:41.960 your own inner chaos for a moment and and places 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:45.160 you somewhere that's um for what I feel is kind 0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:49.040 of probably our truest The truest place for us is 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:52.719 out beyond us. Well, here's what's really cool about the 0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:57.560 awe research, I think, which is not everyone gets to 0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:01.560 sing in front of how many tens of thousands of 0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:04.560 people to experience that, and a lot of us don't 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:08.279 get to go to that many concerts right, like you know, 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:12.480 once every couple of years maybe, um. But what we've 0:46:12.560 --> 0:46:14.760 learned is like you can find I think your own 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:18.120 awe triggers, Like you don't have to wait for those experiences, 0:46:18.120 --> 0:46:20.879 so you can like seek out like, okay, are there 0:46:20.920 --> 0:46:22.520 are there things in the park that give you a 0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:24.760 sense of also and I go, like to the arboretum 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:26.680 by my house and like think about the fact that 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:30.080 a tree has been here for three years, like that's 0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:32.359 all inspiring. Or if I look at an amazing piece 0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:35.120 of art, like that fills me with awe. So there 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:38.239 are ways of Again, now that we know how these 0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:41.640 things work, you can try to be really deliberate to 0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:46.240 build these chatter fighting tools and experiences into your life. 0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:48.360 And that's the challenge I think that we all face, 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:51.400 which is, once we are aware of the different tools 0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:53.799 that exist, how do we bring them in and fold 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:57.719 them in profitably to help us live better lives. I 0:46:57.719 --> 0:46:59.960 want to ask a bit of a selfish question right now, 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:01.840 because I mean, I don't think it's probably selfish. I 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:03.960 think a lot of people are experiencing this in the 0:47:04.040 --> 0:47:06.640 morning when I like when I wake up, like I said, 0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:09.840 that's my first thing that I'm aware of the chatter 0:47:09.920 --> 0:47:15.040 that instantly starts. Is there anything to set us on 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:17.640 the right path in the morning when it comes to 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:20.920 our own chatter? Well, I think I think what you 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:23.000 could try to do is like try to create like 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:26.239 a chatter habit. You know, so if you know that 0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:29.440 as soon as you wake up, boom, like there's that 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:33.680 voice and I don't want to hear it. Um, you know, 0:47:33.760 --> 0:47:36.120 think about, like what are the tools that really work 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:39.160 for you. So maybe it's a ritual that you engage 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.000 in right away that like that morning to start your 0:47:42.080 --> 0:47:46.600 day and you know, followed by a walk and wherever 0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.120 to you know, try to give you a double hit, Like, so, 0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:51.880 find the tools at work and then make habits, make 0:47:51.920 --> 0:47:56.960 specific plans to activate those tools right away before you 0:47:57.040 --> 0:47:59.840 let the chatter to take hold. A lot most of 0:47:59.880 --> 0:48:01.520 the tools I talked about in the book are are 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:06.360 pretty simple to implement, Like these aren't tall orders. Um, 0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:10.799 they're not meant to replace, like clinical interventions if the 0:48:10.880 --> 0:48:14.080 chatter gets too extreme, Like I'm a huge proponent of 0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:18.239 science based interventions and therapy and things like that. For 0:48:18.360 --> 0:48:21.799 most of us, we experienced like chatter is a part 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:23.839 of life and so just trying to think about how 0:48:23.880 --> 0:48:26.120 you can bring those tools in and and make those 0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:29.480 plans can hopefully help prevent it from getting more intense, 0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:34.200 might require you to get more more intensive intervention. Yeah, 0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:37.720 you know, we're living in a really interesting, chatter provoking time, 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:41.120 and I think that your book is is really fascinating 0:48:41.160 --> 0:48:43.799 and and so helpful. Like I said, I've I've been 0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:47.160 implementing the things that that you write about, and I 0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:50.959 am living proof that it actually does work, and which 0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:52.840 makes me excited because there's a lot of you know, 0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:55.239 there's a lot of books and a lot of information 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:57.640 out there, and you know, like so much that people 0:48:57.680 --> 0:49:03.480 can that people claim to be helpful. And I just 0:49:03.560 --> 0:49:07.080 found that the tools that, like you said that you 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:10.239 that are fairly simple and easy to implement, and the 0:49:10.280 --> 0:49:14.440 tools that you have provided have definitely already been impactful 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:16.560 in my life with just the first like a few 0:49:16.640 --> 0:49:19.399 days of really implementing them. And that makes the four 0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:23.440 years of drudgery that went into that all worth it. 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:26.680 I mean really, um, I mean, you know, the reason 0:49:26.719 --> 0:49:29.799 I wrote that book was to take what we know 0:49:30.200 --> 0:49:33.880 and translated for others, like you know, not so just 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:36.480 signed just talking about the stuff so that people can 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:38.279 benefit from it. So the fact that it's having that 0:49:38.440 --> 0:49:41.600 effect really warms my heart and is the best news 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:46.040 I've gotten. While so very good, Thank you well. I 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:50.160 always like to end my episodes with music because obviously 0:49:50.239 --> 0:49:52.239 music is such a big part of my life, and 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:56.040 I find it fascinating to hear what music people love 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:58.520 and what's on their playlist and what's inspiring them. So 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:01.600 I call this the Holy Five. I've so do you 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:03.960 are you? Are you a music fan? And do you 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:07.840 do you have five songs that are that moview that 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:10.759 you'd like to share? I do, but I think you 0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:14.279 might have to change it from calling the Holy five. 0:50:14.360 --> 0:50:16.960 I don't know that you'll these will be holyse blongs. 0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:19.960 No no, no, no, like whole holy as in like 0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:23.040 you know your whole five? I see, okay, good not 0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:26.120 with an age, not with the age the w okay. 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:30.520 So no judgment. I love music, but I've been made 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:33.760 fun of throughout my life for my case, so here goes. 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:46.600 Don't stop leaving journey. Oh that's that's a solid one. Um, 0:50:46.800 --> 0:50:52.439 it's gonna get worse. Just prepare with or without you 0:50:52.440 --> 0:51:05.600 YouTube that's still solid. Uh. Jesse's Girl, Rick Springfield, Jessee's good. Yeah, 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:12.440 that's a good one. Um, blinding Lights the weekend and 0:51:12.480 --> 0:51:21.000 more contemporary one. Oh yeah, very cool. I'm maybe and 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:26.200 bon Jovie living on a prayer Steve you that's those 0:51:26.239 --> 0:51:32.520 are all great. I got made made fun of big 0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:35.680 time in college for those choices, so oh well, now 0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:41.120 you're cool. Thank you to stand for approval. Yes, absolutely, 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:43.520 Thank you so much for joining us today. Um. I 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:46.520 really think people will benefit from from everything we discussed 0:51:46.520 --> 0:51:49.400 and especially your book, So thank you so much. Thanks 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:54.279 for having me. It's ten of fun alright everyone. That 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:57.800 wraps up this episode and kicks off our second season 0:51:57.840 --> 0:52:01.160 of Holy Human. I am so thrilled that we are 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:03.759 on our second season. Thank you so much for all 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:05.560 of you for coming along on this journey with me. 0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:09.960 I truly truly appreciate you joining me on this ride, 0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:12.960 and I also love hearing from you. So please leave 0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:15.920 me your feedback wherever you're listening, and don't hesitate to 0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:18.080 share this podcast with anyone in your life that you 0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:21.200 feel could benefit from hearing it. I send you my 0:52:21.280 --> 0:52:25.840 love until next time. On the next episode of Holy Human, 0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:29.400 We're going to tackle something that is truly transformative, heart 0:52:29.440 --> 0:52:33.480 centered guidance with the beautiful Daniel apport. Until then, loves, 0:52:33.880 --> 0:52:36.759 have a beautiful day, a beautiful week, and I love you. 0:52:39.080 --> 0:52:42.200 Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of 0:52:42.239 --> 0:52:45.240 I Heart Radio. You'll find Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:47.759 on the I Heart app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:49.520 get the podcast that matter most to you.